[HN Gopher] The Zen of Drinking Alone
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The Zen of Drinking Alone
Author : frankswildyears
Score : 44 points
Date : 2022-01-15 21:31 UTC (1 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (drunkard.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (drunkard.com)
| AndyKelley wrote:
| This is poetic, but if you break it down into a syllogism, it's
| clear that this is totally stupid.
|
| Removing the flowery language, here are the claims and supporting
| arguments, along with my rebuttals.
|
| * Drinking alone helps you understand yourself better.
|
| - No it doesn't. It distracts you from that endeavor. If you sit
| at a table with no TV or phone and do nothing, you will have a
| significantly more interesting and honest dialog with yourself if
| you are sober.
|
| * Drinking alone lets you drink a lot of alcohol fast, in your
| preferred cocktail or beverage.
|
| - Yes and this is why it is dangerous. Drinking tasty alcohol
| fast is a great way to get addicted. Or at the very least damage
| your health, both short and long term.
|
| * Drinking alone provides you with comfortable silence.
|
| - Drinking has nothing to do with this. Alcohol is a non-
| sequitur. You have to orchestrate the silence regardless of
| whether alcohol is involved.
|
| That's it. It's just repeating these 3 points in different ways.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| Before I had to give up alcohol completely, I occasionally
| enjoyed a glass of wine and a good book on Saturday mornings.
| Sometimes a shot of scotch once or twice a month. I preferred
| quietly enjoying a drink alone to drinking with friends. I never
| needed alcohol to have fun.
|
| I don't see an issue with the occasional drink. The problem is
| people talking like the author does, don't do the occasional
| drink.
| diveanon wrote:
| angarg12 wrote:
| I drink, but only anti-socially.
| the_only_law wrote:
| I always drink alone these days, Covid killed whatever
| superficial drinking groups I had joined. Though I tend to prefer
| to go out, as opposed to being at home. I'm stuck in the
| apartment for most of the day anyway.
|
| I've never been bothered much by it in the past, but I think I'm
| quickly getting sick of it. It frankly gets boring, hanging out
| at bars all night aimlessly drinking. Yeah I talk people on
| occasion, but we're normally a little a drunk for the
| conversation to be interesting or mean anything. Still I prefer
| if to aimlessly doing anything else, especially sitting at home.
|
| I've been called out once or twice, by people curious about who I
| was or why I was always out alone. My relatively young age
| probably doesn't help with attracting negative connotations.
| However, last week, I stopped by one of my regular bars, and the
| person next to me effectively called me out as a loser (with much
| nicer language, and beating around the bush). It ended up
| agitating me a bit because of how blatant it was. I know it, you
| know it, but does it really have to be announced out loud?
| okareaman wrote:
| I agree with everything in this article. Drinking alone is the
| best, particularly if you like to write while listening to music.
| The flights of fancy I used to go on!
|
| I wish I could still do it, but I found myself waiting for the
| liquor store to open up at 7:00 am to get rid of the shakes. Then
| when I tried to stop I couldn't. Long story short, after several
| rehabs, more stints in mental health lockup than I care to
| remember, and burning through more sponsers in AA that I can
| count, I finally was able to stop.
|
| "Cunning, baffling and powerful" is how Bill Wilson, founder of
| AA called alcohol for those of us who are "real alcoholics" or if
| you prefer
|
| _"Everyone knows that dragons don 't exist. But while this
| simplistic formulation may satisfy the layman, it does not
| suffice for the scientific mind. The School of Higher Neantical
| Nillity is in fact wholly unconcerned with what does exist.
| Indeed, the banality of existence has been so amply demonstrated,
| there is no need for us to discuss it any further here. The
| brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically,
| discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the
| chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might
| say, nonexistent, but each non-existed in an entirely different
| way."_
|
| -- Stanislaw Lem
|
| p.s. There is a tradition of the Drunken Zen Master but it's
| archaic. We all know better now.
| Aloha wrote:
| I have very strict rules I follow for alcohol consumption, if
| for no other reason than I'm the son of a man who was a
| functioning alcoholic for most of his life.
|
| I've read the big book, and consider it a source of wisdom,
| even if I perhaps don't follow all of the tenants contained
| within.
|
| The serenity prayer, which is AA adjacent if not (now) directly
| part of the AA wisdom is my personal lodestar, it's great
| wisdom on how to deal with life's challenges.
|
| From it I ascertained that the first two questions one should
| ask are when encountering something in life are, "is this
| actually important?" and "is this a problem I can actually
| solve or make a meaningful difference in helping solve?" -
| anything one can answer "no" to either of those questions one
| should just let go of, and try to focus one's energies on other
| problems.
|
| Also, I'm glad for you, that you found sobriety.
| ineedasername wrote:
| If you don't mind sharing, what finally made it stick when you
| stopped?
| hutzlibu wrote:
| "It gets down to what drinking is all about: getting loaded, and
| by doing that, getting down to the inner you. The inner joy, the
| inner madness, the subconscious you, the real you"
|
| No, except for alcoholics, drinking is not just about getting
| loaded.
|
| And for inner journeys, there are way better drugs avaiable, or -
| how boring, paths without any drugs at all.
| Aloha wrote:
| This is a whole lot of very artful words to justify what often
| leads to very unhealthy coping skills. While perhaps useful to
| have to fallback on in times of crisis, doing this too often
| deprives one of the social juice and community that makes solving
| problems easier and less burdensome.
| [deleted]
| jayski wrote:
| there are far better and stronger drugs you can do alone for
| introspection.
|
| a night by yourself on shrooms could change you more than 100
| nights drinking alone, without the hangover or liver damage
| levesque wrote:
| A night alone on shrooms sounds like it could go so wrong
| though.
| malwarebytess wrote:
| Really overblown. Maybe in the company of others is better
| the first time, maybe the second, maybe if you've got a
| history of psychosis, but in general tripping alone is by far
| the best way to trip.
| bar_de wrote:
| We are supposed to perform and add value to the world. Not become
| mystics and monks. That's the Zeitgeist slave's mentality.
|
| Doing unhinged introspection with the help of booze or other
| drugs is frowned upon as you you will realise that are not living
| for others but yourself on our shared pale blue dot in your
| personal short glimpse of experienced history and reality.
| waingake wrote:
| Its sad that this seems to have such an appeal. We seem to be
| becoming all so isolated, despite technical advancements that
| were meant to make us more connected. Going to a bar and talking
| to people that are outside your friend group, outside your
| "bubble", and while feeling the happy inhibition that being
| slightly drunk gives is healing.
| aaron695 wrote:
| ahub wrote:
| It's a way of thinking I went into, and the various recent
| lockdowns helped quite a lot. I spend good evenings, and enjoyed
| it thoroughly. But I want to bring up a REALLY STRONG WARNING
| about it.
|
| It's shunned in most cultures for a reason. You don't want to be
| the one wasted person in the polite social event, so it helps
| limiting how much you drink.
|
| The article fail to mentions that alcohol is a VERY addictive
| substance. Not only you need more to reach the same state, but by
| enjoying it, you then actively look for it. I went from a few
| evenings a month, to a daily dose really faster than I expected.
| When you start to dismiss useful stuff (chores, social
| commitments) in favor of drinking, you are the definition of an
| addict. It's also very easy to deny it, but I know very few
| people who can hold a "dry-january" or refrain from drinking for
| several weeks.
|
| I was advised to go to an aa meeting, and I went there just to
| prove myself that I had "no problem with alcohol". That was a
| huge slap in my face. Seeing others being in denial, can really
| help you see your own.
|
| So while I understand (and enjoyed) the practice, I would really
| warn anyone wanting to try that to :
|
| 1. Challenge yourself regularly (did I successfully stop for 2
| weeks ?)
|
| 2. Don't hesitate to reach out if you have the _slightest_ doubt
| you can 't stop.
|
| AA[0] are wonderful people who don't judge, and going to a
| meeting helps tremendously if you have troubles stopping. I
| thought it only happenned to others for way to long.
|
| [0] : https://www.aa.org/
| [deleted]
| akprasad wrote:
| I wish I could source it, but I recall reading an anthropological
| study of drinking that mentioned that solo drinking is
| universally shunned across all cultures.
|
| There's also something perverse about associating this with Zen
| given that abstaining from intoxicants is the fifth precept
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_precepts#Fifth_precept).
|
| I would never say there is _no_ insight that could be gleaned
| from this -- people are different, after all -- but I agree with
| the other comment that this justifies an unhealthy adaptive
| strategy. We have deeper and healthier modes of self-knowledge
| than this.
| pelagicAustral wrote:
| - From "Social and Cultural Aspects of Drinking" [0]:
|
| "The most important of these cross-cultural constants in the
| social norms governing alcohol use is the near-universal taboo
| on solitary drinking. The fact that drinking is, in almost all
| cultures, essentially a social act, is recognised throughout
| the anthropological literature, and ethnographic data from a
| wide range of cultures indicate that solitary drinking is at
| the very least 'negatively evaluated', and often specifically
| proscribed."
|
| - Drinking and masculinity in everyday Swedish culture [1]:
|
| ""Drinking alone should not be done. To drink alone is to be
| anti-social (by not wanting to share); it is commonly thought
| to be an indication of alcoholism. And alcoholism is shameful:
| to be labelled an alcoholic is a condemnation beyond words...""
|
| - Also touching solo-drinking: "America Has a Drinking Problem"
| [2]:
|
| "He and his onetime graduate student Kasey Creswell, a Carnegie
| Mellon professor who studies solitary drinking, have come to
| believe that one key to understanding drinking's uneven effects
| may be the presence of other people. Having combed through
| decades' worth of literature, Creswell reports that in the rare
| experiments that have compared social and solitary alcohol use,
| drinking with others tends to spark joy and even euphoria,
| while drinking alone elicits neither--if anything, solo
| drinkers get more depressed as they drink."
|
| - Pandemic related, "When Drinking Alone Becomes A Problem"
| (2021) [3]
|
| - From Kasey Creswell, "Drinking Together and Drinking Alone: A
| Social-Contextual Framework for Examining Risk for Alcohol Use
| Disorder " [4]
|
| "The context in which drinking occurs is a critical but
| relatively understudied factor in alcohol use disorder (AUD)
| etiology. In this article, I offer a social-contextual
| framework for examining AUD risk by reviewing studies on the
| unique antecedents and deleterious consequences of social
| compared with solitary alcohol use in adolescents and young
| adults."
|
| ---
|
| [0] http://www.sirc.org/publik/drinking5.html [1]
| https://www.taylorfrancis.com/chapters/edit/10.4324/97802030...
| [2]
| https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/07/america...
| [3]
| https://www.cmu.edu/dietrich/psychology/news/2021/creswell-a...
| [4]
| https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/096372142096940...
| akprasad wrote:
| Thank you! I think the first is where I first read it.
| TigeriusKirk wrote:
| "drinking with others tends to spark joy and even euphoria,
| while drinking alone elicits neither--if anything, solo
| drinkers get more depressed as they drink."
|
| I wonder how much of this is "set and setting", something
| that is well known with other drugs. Maybe people tend toward
| depression when they drink alone because that's what they
| expect to happen?
| theNJR wrote:
| Was it this Atlantic article?
|
| https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/07/america...
| akprasad wrote:
| This looks like a great article, but I believe I first saw it
| here (& thanks to pelagicAustral for finding it):
|
| http://www.sirc.org/publik/drinking5.html
|
| And there's some related HN discussion on the article here:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17488786
| version_five wrote:
| I think being a loner is generally seen as unusual though isn't
| it?
|
| I enjoy drinking alone, exercising alone, traveling alone,
| sitting alone, working alone. I don't really think I'm that
| weird by objective standards, there are also things I like
| doing with people (I'm married and have a family), but as a
| sometimes introvert, I definitely value time alone, including
| relaxing with a beer.
|
| Related, when I went to university, I lived in residence and i
| remember sitting by myself at meals and having people come and
| basically think they were doing me a favor talking to me,
| because only a loser would want to sit by himself. I found it
| both annoying (because I wanted to be alone) and condescending
| (because people see you alone and come talk to you like you
| must have no friends) - all that to say, society seems to look
| at you funny if you enjoy being by yourself, so I wouldn't read
| too much into sllo drinking being shunned specifically.
| Aloha wrote:
| No one shuns reading alone, listening to music alone, or
| watching a movie alone.
|
| Drinking alone is more dangerous than drinking with friends.
| rzzzt wrote:
| Watching a movie alone in the comfort of your own home? I
| get that. Going to the cinema alone? Definitely shunned.
| Aloha wrote:
| Depends on the circumstance, I used to travel for a
| living, and attended movies alone not infrequently, I
| can't recall a single occasion when someone looked at me
| funny, or asked me why I was there alone, nor would my
| friends ask "who's you go with?".
|
| If the topic of drinking alone comes up, there is always
| a warning or admonishment.
| watwut wrote:
| How? I was in cinema alone and no one cared. No one said
| a word to me.
| jerkstate wrote:
| depends on the friends, tbh
| jjulius wrote:
| >No one shuns ... listening to music alone, or watching a
| movie alone.
|
| Hi! I'm an avid music and film lover who has been shunned
| for going to live music, or movie theaters, by myself. :)
| watwut wrote:
| Is it more dangerous? I don't think so. It is when you
| already are alcoholic and drunk with friends, you will move
| to drink alone. And drinking a lot for social approval is
| very common way to alcoholism.
|
| But beer alone vs with with friends , I am not convinced
| former is more dangerous.
| [deleted]
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| Drinking alone [?] "Got wicked drunk"
|
| Having a drink alone is pretty harmless. Getting wicked drunk
| alone is depressing.
|
| https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/07/america...
| bunkydoo wrote:
| makeitdouble wrote:
| The article jumps a bit fast from "drinking" and "getting drunk",
| when there's a line there that some of us try to not cross,
| social situations included.
|
| Otherwise yes, drinking alone, just like eating alone can be
| wildly enjoyable.
|
| I'd also warmly recommend to people who can do it to get mildly
| drunk once in a while (every year or two?). Do it with a trusting
| partner who stays clear, and check where's the line and how it
| feels when you come close and then past it.
| ineedasername wrote:
| The idea that you should only drink socially always seemed odd to
| me, as though the purpose of alcohol should be easier social
| interactions (when at times it actually causes problems), and as
| though enjoying the drink because of its taste & characteristics
| should only be some distant secondary concern.
|
| But nearly everything in this article came across as a fairly odd
| way of rationalizing what might be "problem drinking" if not
| outright alcoholism.
|
| I'm sure personal experiences will vary quite a bit here, but
| I've never found and greater truth about self identity there. I
| have found that _sometimes_ it seems to assist in creative
| thoughts, ideas, etc, but certainly not _rational_ thought that I
| think would standup in the post-hangover light of day.
|
| About the most insightful thing I've found out about myself when
| drinking is "That was good whisky, but the last one was too much.
| Let's go drink a bunch of water, some preemptive ibuprofen, and
| get the coffee set to make a quick cup in the morning." It's not
| a vision quest.
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