[HN Gopher] Locked out of 'God Mode', runners are hacking their ...
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Locked out of 'God Mode', runners are hacking their treadmills
Author : vishvananda
Score : 229 points
Date : 2022-01-18 18:56 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.wired.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.wired.com)
| erwincoumans wrote:
| Suitable story, hacking walled gardens on HN.
|
| Reminds me of the Rigol DS1054Z 50 MHz oscilloscope, that you can
| trivially 'hack' into the more expensive DS1074Z 75 MHz or
| DS11074Z 100 MHz scope. Rigol hasn't disabled this hack, even
| though they can easily do it. They likely loose money if they do
| so, since customers move to other scopes.
|
| Also, some Tesla updates make the experience worse instead of
| better (V11 update is terrible, inconsistent UI and much more
| menu diving). I should have disabled auto-updates, and read the
| forums before doing the update next time.
| heavyset_go wrote:
| Your aside reminds me of the PSP hacking days. Whenever there
| was an update, you'd have to hold it and check forums to see if
| it patched your root exploit.
| rlpb wrote:
| This is the first I've heard of it - but is this perhaps a
| straightforward avenue for conventional price discrimination?
| Businesses that want the 100 MHz may well just pay for it
| because they don't want the hassle the hack might lead to. And
| the people who'd use the hack probably wouldn't have paid for
| the more expensive one anyway. So Rigol might be extracting
| maximum value thanks to the hack, rather than despite it.
| quux wrote:
| I think Rigol gave in to the hackers? Last year I bought a
| DS1054Z from amazon and it came with all the options
| permanently enabled.
| dhimes wrote:
| If Nordic is being honest that the issue is safety- preventing
| users from diddling with their software and accidentally making
| it unsafe, then they can simply install a browser so the users
| can view what they wish online.
| treesknees wrote:
| It's entirely possible. The iFit app which runs on my treadmill
| is an embedded web browser. From "God Mode" there is an iFit
| Admin app which reports information such as the embedded
| chromium version being used for iFit.
|
| I actually walked down to the basement to test this - even when
| closing the iFit app while in God Mode, the physical controls
| on the treadmill including speed, incline, the stop button and
| the magnetic safety key, continue to work as designed. If you
| close the app then you can't see your current speed, but you
| can still stop the machine.
|
| That being said, I haven't dug into how the iFit app sends
| commands or retrieve data from the treadmill's controller. It
| seems possible that a "rogue" app could somehow interfere with
| this communication or send its own set of commands to throw you
| off the machine, but feels very unlikely. Plus, the tablet on
| my treadmill is running Android 7. I'd be much more afraid of
| remote exploits on the embedded browser on this ancient OS than
| someone with physical access loading a malicious app.
| LeSaucy wrote:
| C1750 treadmill, was able to drop into android launcher,
| install f store, dropbear. After being able to ssh into the
| treadmill I found the mediatek soc they use has an exploit
| app to get a root shell. Further decompiling of the ifit app
| apk shows it's written in c#/mono, sending bytes to a usb
| device for treadmill control. I ran out of patience trying to
| intercept writes with strace and just went back to running.
| JasonFruit wrote:
| They can still make updates for safety obtain consent from the
| device owner before being installed. I should be able to opt
| out of measures for my own safety.
| johncessna wrote:
| No they aren't being honest. Almost anything can be used in an
| unsafe manner if the desire to do so is there. Fundamentally
| you have a belt whipping around on two rollers at speeds
| upwards of 10 mph. It's an unsafe, if used improperly, machine
| to begin with.
|
| The safety argument isn't so much an argument as it is a
| trigger word to elicit a response in people.
| Jtsummers wrote:
| Frustratingly, the safety argument may win out. But it also
| reflects a poor design. What the people in the article seem
| to want is to be able to use an Android tablet as an Android
| tablet, they aren't dicking around with the safety-related
| parts. So the sensible (but often not done) thing to do would
| be to offer three modes. A "gym mode" suitable for most
| public equipment (just get into iFit or whatever it is), a
| "home mode" which permits installation and use of other apps
| (like Netflix), and an actual privileged mode that can get
| into the safety-related settings. 99.9% of people at home
| will be content with just that home mode level, and never
| care about anything beyond it.
| judge2020 wrote:
| I imagine the same issues would be presented if they embedded
| chrome or webkit with how often both of those have RCEs.
| treesknees wrote:
| The iFit app is actually an embed a web browser. If you open
| the iFit Admin app, it reports a chromium version. I haven't
| dug into it too much, but definitely an embedded browser.
| _fat_santa wrote:
| From Nordic's POV, this is a safety issue, it affects the
| safety of their bottom line. Adding a browser would also
| compromise safety, again not the safety of the user but the
| safety of their bottom line.
| axiosgunnar wrote:
| Hilarious take
| heavyset_go wrote:
| I wish more people were open to this notion of safety than
| the one that companies try to fool their customers into
| believing is for their own good.
| abeppu wrote:
| But the first person interviewed was already a subscriber.
| They bought the hardware. They were paying for the content.
| He was making a pretty healthy contribution to their bottom
| line. Now that customer is alienated to the point of being
| interviewed for an article. I'm guessing they wouldn't
| recommend it to a friend or family. Taking away stuff from
| paying customers seems like a path towards not having
| recurring customers.
|
| If it was just about the money, they should have e.g. have
| pop-up ads cover the screen only for non-subscribers, such
| that people aren't inclined to buy the device, not subscribe
| to the ifit content, and watch youtube instructors or
| whatever.
| alkonaut wrote:
| That it was advertised anywhere in documentation as possible is
| what makes it a hostile move by the manufacturer.
|
| Had this been just some kind of open secret "hack" then buyers
| really should expect this.
|
| Remember: when you buy a gadget with a screen and associated
| "services" like video subscriptions you aren't just buying a lump
| of tech. Your price is set after careful weighing of how much
| customers will consume the subscription services. If the add on
| service is provided by a third party it's even worse: your
| products' ability to deliver something other than their service
| is probably a breach of contract.
|
| My guess: the treadmill makers didn't mind people watching
| Netflix on their gadget. Their partners on content though has
| given them deals on the premise that everyone who didn't buy a
| subscription _should_ have a feeling that they wasted $4k on an
| empty screen. So when they hear a number of users are watching
| Netflix, they get angry. Treadmill makers must block the god
| mode.
|
| The sad thing here is obviously that the idea of making a good
| open product without strings attached or subscriptions seems like
| an impossibility these days.
| bsiemon wrote:
| Classically the feature was taken away to make you safer :)
|
| > The block on privilege mode was automatically installed because
| we believe it enhances security and safety while using fitness
| equipment that has multiple moving parts,
| whoomp12342 wrote:
| yep, thats why they let you watch netflix on tredmills at the
| gym!
| friendlydog wrote:
| We need an Electronic bill of rights.
|
| 1. You must allow full root privileges for Electronic devices to
| the owners
|
| 2. You may not circumvent owners rights through leasing or other
| means.
|
| 3. You may not create barriers to device owners using their
| devices how they see fit.
| tremon wrote:
| Like GPLv3's anti-Tivoization clause?
| npteljes wrote:
| I'd also like code to become open source, at least after a
| while - last product sell date + X years or something.
| makapuf wrote:
| This can be problematic if the hardware vendor purchases
| software from a third party, and that software is not
| discontinued.
| axiosgunnar wrote:
| Just put a screen on a stand infront of your treadmill?
| jasonlotito wrote:
| This is the rsync/USB stick comment in the Dropbox launch
| thread.
| asdff wrote:
| Except unlike rsync vs. dropbox, using an ipad laid on top of
| the treadmill to watch netflix is probably a lot more
| intuitive than whatever garbage laggy smart-tv tier gui
| nordictrack saddles on their users.
| treesknees wrote:
| I don't disagree with you... in fact my Nordic ProForm
| treadmill includes a built in tablet mount that floats above
| the control panel. I used it with my iPad up until I found out
| this "God Mode" of side loading apps existed.
|
| But some of these exercise machines actually come with an
| impressive 32inch HD screen and loud speakers built-in which
| you can hear over the running noise. If you stop paying
| hundreds of dollars per year for an iFit subscription, the only
| thing this giant display does is show you the time and distance
| on a white background.
|
| And perhaps you'd say, "don't buy a machine with a built-in
| screen", I'd say the article points out people actually decided
| to purchase these models _specifically_ because help articles
| and other resources showed how to get into the Android
| interface. Sideloading apps was practically sold as a feature.
| kup0 wrote:
| Finding a workaround is fine but tangential at best, but that
| doesn't mean we should ignore or stay silent regarding company
| philsophies/choices/actions we find repulsive.
| rchaud wrote:
| They didn't advertise the product as being a exercise machine
| with a full Android tablet attached. I don't find their
| actions repulsive, just standard-issue corporate CYA stuff.
|
| It sucks for those that discovered the loophole, but all good
| things must come to an end sometime.
| gennarro wrote:
| Exactly why I only buy dumb devices ex: https://non-smart.com
| type stuff
| npteljes wrote:
| I opted for hackable ones, like the PineTime smart watch, or a
| previous flagship phone that has a compatible LineageOS build.
| remram wrote:
| "God Mode" make it seem like such an unreasonable request. How
| about "Owner Mode"?
| A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote:
| This. It is weird to read basic administrator mode referred to
| as something beyond mere man's understanding, but it does feed
| into this narrative that an average human should try mess with
| the magic box.
| jabroni_salad wrote:
| Jeeze, I will stick with my modular solution: an ipad on a music
| stand. This is compatible not only with any commodity treadmill,
| but also bike trainers, ellipticals, and making vroomvroom noises
| on the motorcycle when it's too icy to actually ride. I could
| also swap out the ipad for a laptop, non-ipad tablet, or a
| collection of cute succulents should I desire it.
|
| snark aside, I'm a bicycle guy and I really like that we have an
| ecosystem of bluetooth trainers and apps that all work pretty
| well with each other. Simulating hilly courses is actually really
| useful and has made me a better rider, so it's not like I'm
| advocating being a total luddite. While I prefer to ride outdoors
| in the sun, my area in Iowa is extremely flat and the only
| difficulty comes from the wind, and I find the new toys are a lot
| more fun than a dumb trainer with a sufferfest DVD. I don't
| really know much about the treadmill scene but I hope you guys
| have access to similar stuff.
| taude wrote:
| Funny, I use iPad on a music stand, too. With my bike trainier
| (Hammer H3). BTW, you can get the Sufferfest content on the
| newer Wahoo Systm app. I don't mind paying the $15/month for it
| for a the three to four winter months spent training inside.
| (They also have newer content, too, than the old DVDs.)
| throwhauser wrote:
| > ipad on a music stand
|
| Thanks for the idea. I might get some kind of tablet so I can
| watch things without moving my (cheap) stationary bike in front
| of the living room TV.
| seanp2k2 wrote:
| If you want a really nice version of this, companies like
| Heckler Design, Manfrotto, Triad Orbit, and Konig & Meyer
| make excellent stands with tons of adapters for lights,
| cameras, mics, speakers, phones, ipads...
|
| My current WFH setup includes a Manfrotto 244N magic arm
| attached with a RAM mount to a Rokform RAM ball that very
| securely attaches to my Rokform iPhone case. It's clamped to
| my desk with a Manfrotto 035 SuperClamp. The RAM adapter is
| P/N RAP-B-366U and the double swivel on the RAM side is a
| RAP-B-201U . The Rokform part is "Universal Ball Adapter
| Phone Mount" SKU: 337101
|
| RAM also makes a great iPad "X-Grip" holder, along with tons
| of different mounts for different situations, especially
| vehicles and things like exercise bikes (e.g. look for stuff
| like a "RAM(r) Double U-Bolt Ball Base for 1" - 1.25" Rails"
| or indeed their actual handlebar mounts). These are sturdy,
| pro-level mounts, not the cheap disposable junk from no-name
| brands on Amazon.
|
| For my Zwift stationary bike setup that I use my old road
| bike on, I just use a $15 Niteize Handleband to attach my
| phone plus a Vornado 783DC made-in-USA DC brushless fan to
| keep the sweat levels low.
|
| Another couple brands worth checking out would be Joby's
| stuff (I have an old GorillaPod DSLR that holds my webcam
| these days) and "The Joy Factory" who make pro-level iPad
| clamps / stands.
| asdff wrote:
| Give it a go with just your phone too before shelling out for
| a tablet. When I go to the gym I sometimes just lay my phone
| on top of the machine by the controls (about music stand
| level) and at that distance from my eyes the diagonal is
| plenty large enough
| charles_f wrote:
| > I will stick with my modular solution: an ipad on a music
| stand.
|
| I actually don't get the point of getting a 4000 treadmill
| rather than one that's half the price and an ipad
| Tildey wrote:
| You save... uhhh... one power outlet?
|
| But really, my understanding is that these fancier treadmills
| map incline/speed/whatever data to the video file to make it
| "more realistic". I think there may even be a sort of
| MMO/live ghost feature?
|
| Personally I think I'd rather just have music I like and work
| out at a pace that's comfortable for me, but to each their
| own I suppose.
| themodelplumber wrote:
| It's funny you mentioned the sun. I enjoyed the sun a little
| too much when I was younger. So one feature I enjoy in exercise
| bikes these days is the radiation protection.
|
| The accessory part is also pretty neat though. I use a low end
| exercise bike that came with a snap-on plastic tablet holder.
| It works pretty well but it got me thinking about hacking the
| thing. I was finally able to mount a scanner radio, a ham
| radio, exercise bands, and my phone along with the tablet. Then
| my kids decided to take it off my hands for a while...I think
| Dad looked a little too motivated.
| _fat_santa wrote:
| I really hate how we are moving more and more towards "managed
| experiences" in products. Used to, you would buy a product and
| use it how you see fit. But these days it seems that's not what
| the company wants you to do. You buy the product and enjoy a
| "managed" experience from the company.
|
| We see it everywhere with printers, coffee makers, phones,
| laptops, treadmills and even cars now. Everyone knows why this is
| being done, simply making money on a $99 coffeemaker is not good
| enough anymore, we have to make that $99 plus we have to make
| money in perpetuity because the customer now has to subscribe to
| our "managed experience".
|
| Now I understand this on some level with cheaper stuff like
| printers, that printer doesn't cost $20, it costs that because
| the company assumes you will buy the pods from them. But with a
| treadmill that goes for thousands it's a completely different
| ball game.
|
| Were going to get to the point where one day you will hop in your
| car and start driving into the countryside. At a certain point
| your car will just shut off because "Ford has decided that this
| route in unsafe for your vehicle, for the best experience, please
| drive back to the city, on your way back, consider enabling cup
| holders for an improved coffee drinking experience".
|
| The glimmer of hope on the horizon are companies like Framework
| and Pinephone. These companies realize that consumers are not
| happy with this shit and market themselves as the antithesis of
| these practices. I really hope these types of companies take off
| in the future.
| JasonFruit wrote:
| "Please enjoy a complimentary game of centrifugal bumblepuppy!"
| _fat_santa wrote:
| "In order to have the best experience, please confirm your
| AdChoices"
| marginalia_nu wrote:
| "Please drink verification GatorAde to continue!"
| A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote:
| Oh good grief, don't give them ideas.
|
| Incidentally, I distinctly remember reading something
| about skippable ad on tv ( skippable if you do something
| adveriser wants -- like McD ad and its only skippable if
| you yell 'i m lovin' it').
|
| Your idea is next level though:>
| marginalia_nu wrote:
| It was a reference to this: https://imgur.com/KGzbkBn
| A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote:
| I think the worst part is that I can absolutely imagine a
| world where this is a reality. Thank you for sharing
| this.
| waffle_maniac wrote:
| I bought a replacement $400 Canon printer recently. Same model,
| price is at least double what it was several years ago. The
| reason to buy the more expensive model is because there are
| readily available cheap third-party cartridges. A lot of the
| new cheaper models don't have that.
| fendy3002 wrote:
| What I've read people write online is to ditch inkjets
| altogether and go with laser printer or use megatank
| printers. Don't know how better they are though.
| asdff wrote:
| In reality printers are such small potatoes unless you are
| printing like hundreds of pages a year. I got mine from an
| online listing for free, and I spend maybe $30 on ink once
| a year. It mostly exists to print shipping labels. I'd just
| get a printer for as cheap as possible and not worry too
| much about what kind it is if you are going to only use it
| sparingly.
| horsawlarway wrote:
| I've been thinking about this for a while, and my proposal is
| pretty simple:
|
| ---
|
| Legally - prohibit selling physical goods that contain digital
| locks unless the owner is given a key. Period.
|
| ---
|
| That's all you have to do. If I own the device, I get the keys
| for the physical locks, and the keys for the digital locks.
|
| I'm completely ok with manufacturers locking down computers for
| security, in much the same way that I appreciate that cars have
| door/ignition locks.
|
| But if I own it - I get all the keys. I may never use them, but
| they are mine, as part of ownership.
| dont__panic wrote:
| Yeah, it's fine for a corporate device or a child's device to
| have some safety rails in place. But it's bullshit that an
| iOS device I purchased won't run any application or
| customization or OS version that I want.
| AndrewOMartin wrote:
| Yeah, wouldn't it be great if there was a foundation to
| advocate for being able to have the keys to your digital
| locks?
|
| We could call it something like the Freedom from Locks on
| Software Foundation, or maybe something a bit snapper.
| horsawlarway wrote:
| My take is not nearly as strong as the fsf's. I'm fine not
| being provided with source code, and not being able to
| distribute the original code itself.
|
| Basically - I don't expect to have companies hand me code
| they wrote to run the device (I happen to like it, so I
| tend to support companies that do), but I don't believe
| that's a reasonable (or particularly useful) practice when
| so many functions depend on external web services.
|
| I _do_ expect to have them legally prevented from blocking
| me from writing my own code to run or repair the device.
| enriquto wrote:
| > My take is not nearly as strong as the fsf's.
|
| Your take is much stronger than that of the FSF. The FSF
| advocates for people to choose free software, and for
| governments to not force people to use non-free software.
| You say that non-free software (i.e., software for which
| you don't have the key) should be illegal. The FSF has
| never advocated for such an extreme viewpoint.
| pjerem wrote:
| No he didn't said that. He said that he wanted the keys
| blocking him to run its own software, not that he wanted
| the code of the running software.
|
| Much like you don't need Windows source code to install
| Linux, but you need to be provided the UEFI password if
| there is one.
| judge2020 wrote:
| How do you give the owner a key without enabling an evil maid
| attack? a physical usb device unique to the phone that will
| unlock it to run whatever when it's plugged in? something
| deep in settings that requires you do a dance and enter the
| konami code?
| GauntletWizard wrote:
| For my treadmill: Who cares? If my maid is evil and
| reporgrams my treadmill to randomly throw me off, there's a
| dozen more effective and hard to detect ways she could set
| traps in my house, like setting up common household
| cleaning products to mix and fill the house with chlorine
| gas.
|
| Evil Maid attacks are real, but you don't need perfect
| security for your household appliances.
| nybble41 wrote:
| A device-specific "owner password" would be fine. Physical
| access is not proof of ownership, so there is no need to
| open the device up to trivial "evil maid"-style attacks. Of
| course some owners will lose their passwords, so some
| provision would need to be made to ensure that owner-access
| is not permanently lost.
| pjerem wrote:
| There is a new technology that I learnt of recently. It's
| called paper. It can be used to create instruction booklets
| or, by adding glue, it can become a sticker. We could print
| those keys on it.
| [deleted]
| FredPret wrote:
| That makes sense.
|
| With these treadmills, gyms can simply keep their
| NordicTracks locked to prevent people messing with them.
|
| And if you buy one for yourself, you can watch Netflix.
|
| All at the owners' risk. Treat adults like adults. I like it.
| monkeybutton wrote:
| Want to unlock your car with the keyfob? Want to use the heated
| seats? Subscriptions. Anyways, please drink a verification can.
| Consider also reading "Unauthorized Bread".
| enobrev wrote:
| "Sorry, these cupholders do not work with this brand of soda.
| Your GPS screen is now showing the nearest store where you
| can purchase a brand of soda that will work in your
| cupholders. You'll be enjoying delicious X Brand Soda in just
| 17 minutes!"
| Kaze404 wrote:
| I really don't see how else a system that encourages infinite
| growth can evolve.
| AniseAbyss wrote:
| Maybe companies don't want to get sued and end up in the
| American justice system clown world. Personal responsibility
| seems to go right out of the window when people smell money...
| keyle wrote:
| I'm utterly disappointed I didn't see any footage of DOOM running
| on it. If those hackers didn't spend so much time trying to be
| healthy, they could focus their time on an actual worthy task! /s
| MaxBarraclough wrote:
| Not the first time a company has pushed an update that removes
| important features.
|
| To my knowledge the first high-profile instance of this was when
| Sony updated the PS3 to remove Linux support, which resulted in a
| successful class-action in the US. [0]
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OtherOS
| sschueller wrote:
| Successful for whom? The layers or the consumer? Sadly in many
| class action cases the "victims" get effectively nothing.
|
| The way class action is done in the US it only makes sense for
| the law firms.
|
| I have stacks of class action letters and in almost every case
| I get exactly zero...
| colinmhayes wrote:
| > Successful for whom?
|
| Consumers who don't want products to have features disappear.
| The main thing class action suites accomplish is punishing
| the offender so that potential offenders in the future think
| twice.
| slantyyz wrote:
| > I have stacks of class action letters and in almost every
| case I get exactly zero...
|
| I was pleasantly surprised when I got around $250 CAD from a
| Lenovo class action suit. I bought one of their consumer
| laptops that had a piece of crapware on it. It was big news
| when it happened. Otherwise, I normally get maybe $20 for the
| class actions that I sign up for.
| nybble41 wrote:
| > Otherwise, I normally get maybe $20 for the class actions
| that I sign up for.
|
| Your area requires lawyers to solicit class members to sign
| up for class actions? Lucky! Around here you'll just be
| grouped into the class action without asking for consent.
| If you're lucky they'll mail you a notice about the suit on
| a postcard and let you "opt out" by locating a non-editable
| PDF of a form buried somewhere on their site, printing it &
| filling it in by hand, and sending it to their headquarters
| by certified mail at your own expense. (If you're less
| lucky you get to write up your own free-form opt-out letter
| and hope it meets their standards.) If you don't do this
| then you lose the ability to sue as an individual, or to
| _refrain_ from being (ab)used to bully the defendant (and
| enrich the lawyers) in the event that you don 't agree with
| the basis for the suit.
| frozenport wrote:
| Thats because Sony originally marketed OtherOS but then changed
| the functionality after the users had purchased the machines.
| npteljes wrote:
| My pet feature removal case is when they pushed an update for a
| GTA that removed a good bunch of the original songs from the
| radio. The articles I found are for GTA IV but I'm certain that
| the issue was with an earlier version at first.
| kelvin0 wrote:
| I like my devices cheap, dumb and offline. Nothing else.
| gnabgib wrote:
| This is a couple of months old now, posted a few times.. not much
| discussion: [0] 8pts/1 comment [1] 15pts/1
| comment [2] 5pts/0 comments
|
| [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29288525 [1]:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29292826 [2]:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29296501
| dmix wrote:
| Currently ranked #2 on HN, it happens.
| CountDrewku wrote:
| I don't understand this obsession with electronic exercise
| devices. The peloton, that stupid thing that mounts to the wall,
| treadmills etc.
|
| Outside is so much better than all of those. I will 100% run in
| single digit temperatures with snow on the ground before I touch
| a treadmill. If I have to be inside it's weight lifting.
| mikestew wrote:
| _I don 't understand this obsession with electronic exercise
| devices._
|
| Then you need to make an effort, because it's really not hard
| to understand if one has even just a bit of life experience as
| an adult. But it sounds like an excuse to brag about the harsh
| weather one runs in, and those damned kids and their video
| games or something. Here, I'll one-up you: I regularly ran in
| snow and sub-zero (Fahrenheit, bitches) temperatures when I
| lived in Indiana. I now live in the much milder Pacific
| Northwest, and I own a treadmill. 'cuz you know what? Sometimes
| outside _isn 't_ better than any of those, and I just need to
| get some miles in.
| francisofascii wrote:
| I agree outside is better, but sometimes there is ice, hot
| weather, or simply not wanting to deal with angry motorists.
| technothrasher wrote:
| You prefer to exercise outside, others of us prefer to exercise
| on a machine. So what? I'm not sure what the point of your
| comment is.
| CoastalCoder wrote:
| Here's why I prefer electronic exercise devices:
|
| - When my kids were younger, I was always nearby during a
| workout.
|
| - I can comfortably work out regardless of the season, weather,
| or time of day.
|
| - I can easily take a bathroom break mid-workout.
|
| - I can do much longer workouts without getting bored, because
| I can watch movies or play video games during the workout.
| (E.g., using an exercise bike + my own computer.) This works
| around motivational / persistence issues I used to have.
|
| - I can end a workout on short notice. Contrast to a long-
| distance run or bikeride, where I may be far from home when
| something comes up.
| maurits wrote:
| Ive just enjoyed another month of covid lockdown, and my bike
| trainer is about the only thing that kept me sane.
| jabroni_salad wrote:
| The most obvious thing is having a good environment. If you are
| doing serious HIITs, you either need to be at a track or on a
| training device, unless you feel like playing in traffic.
| Fitness equipment is not the goal, fitness is, and equipment is
| a good way to get there.
| Jtsummers wrote:
| > Outside is so much better than all of those.
|
| If it's an option for the exercise you want and your health and
| safety, sure. It's not always an option and there are some
| exercises (like rowing) that are't practical to do every day
| unless you live on or near a body of water, and even then. If
| the lake freezes over, good luck rowing!
|
| > I will 100% run in single digit temperatures with snow on the
| ground before I touch a treadmill.
|
| Good for you, do you want a cookie or something?
| jasonlotito wrote:
| Kids, safety, convenience, positive encouragement, all these
| things help. Not everyone is as privileged as you where you can
| easily just go outside and leave your home without a care in
| the world.
| Gwarzo wrote:
| What world do you live in where you cannot just "go outside"
| and be there for a window of time.
|
| In what world are you unable to do the above, but perfectly
| able to have this solved via electronic workout devices.
| belthesar wrote:
| A non-ableist one, apparently. A transplant patient who is
| on anti-rejection meds, where they need to protect
| themselves from a pandemic-level infection that their body
| refuses to build antibodies for despite numerous
| vaccination attempts. A person suffering from agoraphobia,
| where the fear of being outside and even observed is a
| psychological road block to doing literally anything. Two
| of many possible reasons for things like this to be a huge
| help.
|
| Do they need an electronic workout device? Nah, but if
| you're legitimately helping someone to achieve motivation
| or be safer in taking care of themselves, then the product
| has value.
| ultrarunner wrote:
| The world where my 4 year old can't quite keep up. He's
| done = I'm done.
| watwut wrote:
| Balance bike or bike for kid and you can run next.
| ultrasounder wrote:
| Awesome good on you and more power to you. BUT Treadmill,
| Spinning bike and Rowing is for a different demographic. And
| You are not part of that demographic.Gabeesh?
| mikestew wrote:
| Not that NordicTrack cares about purchases from l'il ol' me in
| the larger scheme of things, this is precisely why we didn't buy
| a NordicTrack treadmill despite being tickled with our
| NordicTrack rowing machine: that screen is there for
| NordicTrack's benefit, not yours. Sure, I'm a software engineer
| as well as owning a soldering iron and knowing how to use it. But
| if I've got to unsolder/resolder wires or cut traces on my brand-
| new machine to get the functionality I thought I paid for, I
| bought the wrong machine. If I have to use a software hack that
| is one update away from not working anymore, I have purchased the
| wrong machine. I'll let others rant about not being able to use
| the hardware that one paid for, I'm just not going to pay for the
| HW in the first place. (And, honestly, how many of us on HN need
| _another_ screen around the house?)
|
| It's disappointing, too, because we're quite satisfied with our
| NT rowing machine, which was purchased right before the "big
| screen" models, and we would otherwise recommend it. But now you
| can't buy the one with the cheap LCD display like we have and
| just bring your own screen, you have to get proprietary screen
| models now. So I don't recommend their rowing machines anymore,
| either.
|
| After much research, we bought a treadmill from Horizon
| fitness[0]. We've been nothing but happy with it, which is their
| top-of-the-line 7.8. It has BT for music to play over the built-
| in speakers, and it works fine with Zwift and even the iFit
| subscription that NordicTrack pushes (it just won't auto-control
| the treadmill speed/incline, which is a-okay by me). BT streams
| your data to Zwift, et. al., including speed/incline/HR. It has a
| built-in stand for your tablet, though anyone on HN ought to be
| able to rig some cheap 27" 4k monitor in there somehow (we use a
| wall-mount for the rowing machine that swivels for general
| purpose use). The spouse and I have used it with Zwift, iFit, and
| Apple Fitness+, though Zwift is the only one that cares about
| data from the BT stream. As running goes I used to be fast, but
| now I'm just old and still faster than most, and it does
| everything I need for dark, rainy PNW days. I use it for tempo
| and intervals on occasion as well, and the one-button presets for
| interval/recovery are nice so when I'm gasping for breath I just
| need to be able to push the recovery button.
|
| Anyway, no association whatsoever with Horizon, just a very
| satisfied customer.
|
| [0] https://www.horizonfitness.com
| chris_wot wrote:
| Honestly, it is getting to the point where your best bet is to
| buy a cheaper device with minimal features, then mount a screen
| onto it and hook it up to a Linux box to play what you want.
|
| Cheaper and actually gives you what you want. Might force the
| vendor to allow for more customization, given a lot of people
| stop buying their premium range.
| DevKoala wrote:
| This hacks is impressive, but very pointless. A regular treadmill
| plus an iPad is a much better combo and it goes for $1k less
| total.
| throwaway81523 wrote:
| I'd be interested in knowing where to order a 32 inch ipad for
| $1000.
| breakfastduck wrote:
| You can buy them for much less than that. They're known as
| 'televisions' and you can get even bigger ones than 32 inch
| for under $500!
| DevKoala wrote:
| Fine, attach a TV to it for $200. The whole thing just seems
| silly.
| reificator wrote:
| They didn't say it was identical, they said it was a much
| better combo.
| [deleted]
| treesknees wrote:
| The method to get into "God Mode" is the same, except now it
| prompts you for a code. Someone has figured out how to calculate
| it and actually created a website to generate codes for you.
|
| http://getresponsecode.com
|
| Apparently the algorithm is very simple according to Reddit
| https://old.reddit.com/r/nordictrack/comments/ozkp8v/privile...
|
| >long responseCode = new Random((long)
| Integer.parseInt(iFitCode)).nextInt(999999);
|
| It's not a perfect workaround, as it resets on the next boot, but
| I've seen that people are installing apps such as Taskbar which
| float overtop the iFit app and start on boot, allowing you to
| still launch your apps like Netflix etc even without God Mode
| enabled.
|
| It's only a matter of time before Nordic decides to block this
| method as well. We should also be looking into how to block
| updates to these devices.
| dmosley wrote:
| Surely one can just block the update service via something like
| a pihole? I do this for my Vizio TV. They're notorious, as as
| most smart TVs now, for calling home and everywhere else.
| ncann wrote:
| Normally you can block any device's update if you figure out
| the server for the update content/update check, and block it
| out from your router and/or DNS.
| EvanAnderson wrote:
| The "solution" for that will be embedded 5G connections.
| konschubert wrote:
| That would work equally well with LTE. It's not happening
| because it would increase cost.
| seanp2k2 wrote:
| "Luckily" in the US, the carrier oligopoly here won't
| sell you a cheap IoT plan for cell connectivity, and the
| "lifetime" plans sold to manufacturers are probably at
| least $50-100 in volume.
| pjerem wrote:
| Oh no, in fact, it's just around the corner.
|
| https://aws.amazon.com/fr/private5g/
| seanp2k2 wrote:
| The remedy for that will be wrapping the internal antenna
| in foil or cell tower emulation.
| npteljes wrote:
| The remedy to that is that the thing will stop working
| after a while - like how Intel x86 CPUs turn off after 30
| mins without their precious spy co-processor[0], or how
| Diablo 2 Resurrected discontinues working after 30 days
| of being offline[1]. Of course another remedy is that
| you're free to buy a similar thing from another
| manufacturer, that's not completely dropped the ball on
| the issue. That is, until all of the manufacturers drop
| the ball, like how the situation is with x86 CPUs and
| Intel ME / AMD ST. The true remedy would be well thought
| out, well enforced legislation. But yeah, I'm not holding
| my breath either.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine
| #Undocu...
|
| [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29977673
| Buttons840 wrote:
| I don't know what scares me more, the fact that all
| manufacturers might go down this path, or that our
| society might reward them for doing so.
| Retr0id wrote:
| The remedy for that will be requiring a network handshake
| to occur on boot.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| At that point it should be easy to return, at least.
| chris_wot wrote:
| At which point, you tell them you have no coverage and
| get a refund.
| fragmede wrote:
| The remedy for that is to emulate the server
|
| The remedy for that is to encrypt the communication
|
| The remedy for that is to MITM the server connection
|
| The remedy for that is HSTS...
|
| It's a cat a mouse game, the better solution for society
| (imo) is to have specific rights enshrined by law to
| allow for a qualified 3rd parties to access a system's
| internals.
| Arnavion wrote:
| The one advantage of playing the cat-and-mouse game is
| that the longer it goes on, the more complexity ends up
| being in the firmware (TLS, HPKP, etc as you already
| listed), which increases the likelihood of an exploit
| that can take over it.
| dbsmith83 wrote:
| The remedy for that is a crack
| fknorangesite wrote:
| And when wintertime rolls around, the gorillas simply
| freeze to death.
| huhtenberg wrote:
| The "solution" is to allow the device use only "official"
| resolver servers, accessed via encrypted channel, secured
| by a PKI with a private root.
| mst wrote:
| > It's only a matter of time before Nordic decides to block
| this method as well.
|
| Maaaybe.
|
| The public statement from them sounds like it was legal whining
| about liability issues, and if that's actually true (which,
| well) then if it has to be sufficiently intentional on your
| part that may be sufficient for them to leave well alone.
|
| Certainly worth preparing for that not being the case though.
| IshKebab wrote:
| Yeah or that's just the excuse they use to justify blocking
| access so more people subscribe to their services.
| seanp2k2 wrote:
| IANAL, but are there any actual cases where someone or a
| class successfully sued a company for using their product
| off-label in such a way? This kind of stuff seems to me like
| how schools no longer permit students to go out for lunch,
| citing liability that they almost assuredly never had in the
| first place.
| pc86 wrote:
| I can at least see the argument that tapping the screen a
| couple times in a certain pattern might not be sufficient,
| but having to generate a code is. I think it's a ridiculous
| argument, but I wouldn't be even remotely shocked that some
| octogenarian judge who doesn't own a cell phone is
| convinced by it.
| vuldin wrote:
| This is great, thanks for posting this site. I am one of those
| who bought this awesome treadmill for several reasons,
| including to watch netflix and plex. It's been frustrating not
| being able to easily do this... I have just been listening to
| podcasts from my phone.
| sandworm101 wrote:
| >> and finding workarounds that allow them to bypass the update
| and watch whatever they want while they work out.
|
| Like buying a TV and mounting it on the wall in front of the
| treadmill? Do these people not have access to 2x4s? Why does your
| TV screen need to be integrated into your exercise equipment?
| habeebtc wrote:
| The alternative here is to buy a waterproof tablet, and a decent
| mount to attach it to your treadmill.
|
| https://amazon.com/Arkon-TAB086-12-Tablet-Galaxy-Retail/dp/B...
| charles_f wrote:
| > NordicTrack says it supports right-to-repair rules.
|
| I don't get why companies think this kind of blanket statements
| are useful, when they're immediately made null by their actions.
|
| > However, because of its equipment's moving parts, the
| spokesperson says, it believes that restricting access to its
| operating system is important for safety.
|
| This is such obvious BS, when the real kicker is that after you
| already shelled $4k, they really really want you to rack out that
| sweet sweet monthly subscription money and don't want any
| competitors on a screen that, it turns out, they can control.
|
| Greedy manufacturers wanting to get into that monthly recurring
| revenue model.
| gorjusborg wrote:
| This type of 'update' is one reason I tend to stay away from so-
| called 'smart' devices.
|
| If part of the product I've paid for is software, and the company
| can update it without customer consent at any time, then I can't
| rely on the product's features. Period.
|
| I experienced this myself on the PS4 version of Terraria. I
| bought a hard-copy of the game. I mastered the controls, and
| loved them. Terraria was updated one day, and the controls were
| all changed, completely. Total rip-off. I liked the game I
| bought, but it was replaced without my consent.
|
| My feeling is that this behavior should be illegal for purchased
| products.
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| Why don't the customers use a tablet resting on the treadmill
| or wall-mounted TV to watch whatever they want?
| francisofascii wrote:
| That is not always practical. Also, why purchase a tablet or
| install a wall mounted screen, when there is a perfectly good
| screen right in front of you.
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| Because unless screen doesn't display what you want it to.
| It's useless.
| mikestew wrote:
| Tablets can bounce around on a treadmill if you really get
| going, and 10" is not 32". And you think customers are going
| to wall-mount a TV in the garage where a lot of treadmills
| live, rather than just buy a built-in screen? I mean, yeah,
| that's exactly what I did, but not everyone (not but a few?)
| are even that handy.
|
| And on top of everything else, customers thought that they
| _could_ watch whatever they wanted on their attached 32 " LCD
| screen. Why fuck with wall-mounting a TV or a bouncy tablet
| when they sell a treadmill with the screen built-in?
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| > Why fuck with wall-mounting a TV or a bouncy tablet when
| they sell a treadmill with the screen built-in?
|
| Because unless the screen displays what you want it to,
| it's useless?
| johnmaguire wrote:
| > And on top of everything else, customers thought that
| they could watch whatever they wanted on their attached
| 32" LCD screen.
| mikestew wrote:
| Oh, I see, you want to shame people for not seeing this
| coming. Never mind, I thought yours was an honest
| question.
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| Interesting interpretation. Shame was not mentioned. What
| was mentioned: a workaround to a problem.
| elmolino89 wrote:
| Wrong question: wtf TV sized screen attached to whatever
| fitness gizmo when smaller screen and a whichever size you
| want wall/pedestal mounted TV will be likey cheaper and
| usable outside your jogging hours.
| suifbwish wrote:
| It's called military surplus Velcro. You get a second
| rubber case for the tablet that you apply Velcro to the
| back of then apply the other side to the treadmill in an
| area where it makes full contact. I have seen videos of
| people in Velcro suits jump and stick to walls so I'm sure
| it would work with a tablet.
| suifbwish wrote:
| Dear god don't get me started on mobile terraria. They
| completely ruined the gameplay. Common sense would tell any
| product team to at least provide the option to switch back to
| the old interface (they didn't add or take away anything that
| would disallow this) but NO. I started playing it because it
| was fun, simple and easy to learn/play, now the controls have
| been completely ruined for mobile.
| datavirtue wrote:
| My feeling is that this is a temporary thing that leverages
| previous generations propensity for compliance and happily
| being controlled and screwed over constantly.
|
| I have been appalled at the way people bend over and open their
| wallet since I was a preteen. Nordic and all the other rent
| seeking shits count on people blindly using their product they
| way they are told to. I'm surprised Nordic isn't suing their
| customers yet.
| imoverclocked wrote:
| This pattern is pervasive. I also dislike needing an app and an
| internet connection for the most basic functionality with some
| purchased device. At some point, we need to own the things we
| buy and that line keeps getting pushed back further and
| further.
|
| Anec-data: I purchased a cooking device for my parents in
| December and it has a single button to turn it off. The only
| way to use it is with an app which requires a login to the
| company's service. The device even has local bluetooth
| capabilities. You may be wondering, "What is this device
| supposed to do?" and the obvious answer is: "It's supposed to
| boil water." The real answer seems to be, "it collects usage
| data about customers boiling water."
| javajosh wrote:
| Not interesting data. The real reason is that it's easier to
| connect things through a central service. I sometimes email
| myself for the same reason.
| ectopod wrote:
| This is true for things that are connected to the network
| anyway. It is not true for unconnected devices controlled
| by Bluetooth. The gratuitous app login is straightforwardly
| malign.
| vorpalhex wrote:
| I'm assuming you are talking about a sous vide device.
|
| This is one of the few (unrooted) smart devices I actually
| appreciate. You can easily configure it for a specific task
| (steak? chicken? brussels?), get push notifications when it's
| done and even turn off it's warm setting remotely if needed.
|
| And given that most of the thing is immersed in boiling hot
| water, it makes sense to not put controls on the device
| itself.
| newaccount74 wrote:
| And in two or three years, when that cloud service
| inevitably shuts down, you'll be stuck with a pot that
| doesn't heat water.
| vorpalhex wrote:
| The app doesn't need the cloud for bluetooth usage or
| basic wifi usage (though "out of your house" usage likely
| uses their relay service). You would no longer get
| "recipe of the week" stuff, but that is a small loss.
|
| The real danger is that eventually the app goes away due
| to not being maintained. Hopefully they release the API
| spec before then, but my specific device has already been
| reverse engineered at least.
| cbhl wrote:
| I recently got an Anova -- with touch controls, and it
| works great both with and without the app. The top is a big
| bigger to handle the screen and touch controls.
|
| Making an immersion circulator app-only is likely a BOM-
| reducing measure, which is fine (given that active time is
| probably at most a few minutes like twice a day). And you
| can get smaller form factors too with app-only control
| (e.g. Ember Mug).
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| Why did you buy that?
| imoverclocked wrote:
| I have a similar device and was recommended the newer and
| upgraded version from someone I know. Given time pressure
| and other priorities at the time, I took the recommendation
| without much further investigation.
| beckman466 wrote:
| > My feeling is that this behavior should be illegal for
| purchased products.
|
| Welcome to the Right to Repair movement!
| ljm wrote:
| The problem with 'smart' devices I think is something akin to a
| conflict of interest.
|
| On the one hand you're purchasing hardware, which you expect to
| own and control.
|
| On the other, there is software that runs on a subscription
| model which 'coincidentally' restricts the functionality of the
| hardware, because they want to stop people from bypassing the
| sub.
|
| The hardware effectively becomes useless if the subscription
| service becomes unavailable or is taken down (e.g. if the
| company is acquired and the new company doesn't want to support
| that stuff any more). It might still function mechanically, but
| it now has a broken appendage through no fault of your own.
|
| I just don't think I could justify a purchase like that nos
| unless I could square that circle. I'm not going to pay 2k for
| a Peloton bike that holds itself hostage unless I pay another
| 40 a month.
| CoastalCoder wrote:
| I agree. Perhaps the U.S.'s legal framework reasonably allows
| this kind of behavior, but IMHO it's a sign that the framework
| needs legislative correction.
|
| The first time I encountered this was when Sony advertised
| Linux-compatibility for the PS3, which I bought expressly for
| that purpose. I was shocked when a judge upheld Sony's post-
| sale removal of that capability.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| Government should mandate the ability to downgrade the
| software to versions that were previously available on said
| hardware.
|
| I've had so many issues with Apple devices losing
| compatibility with obscure features on apps after updating
| iOS, I wish I could go back occasionally to accomplish some
| task, and then upgrade again when finished.
|
| The flexibility is valuable.
|
| For example, on the newest iPad Pro, iMovie is unusable after
| iOS 15, completely jittery and unable to handle smooth user
| experiences for some reason.
| brokenmachine wrote:
| Definitely.
|
| TV updates are another thing. They change things with
| abandon and you can't revoke the updates.
|
| Sometimes they break stuff and then you have to pray and
| wait until they hopefully fix them at their leisure.
|
| IMO, it should be illegal to issue unrevokable updates so
| you can't get a product to have identical features as it
| did at the time of purchase. You should always be able to
| wipe it back to stock.
|
| And the people who might crow about "security" - my device,
| my rules. I can block it on the network if I want.
| BTCOG wrote:
| This is precisely the reason why prior to linux
| support/removal, exploits weren't targeted. Once linux
| support was removed, linux hackers started releasing exploit
| after exploit on the target hardware and software, and it
| only took a couple months after they removed the linux
| support.
| lupire wrote:
| Overturned on appeal and then settled for $65/user.
| flerchin wrote:
| I got a check for $3.02.
| [deleted]
| pooper wrote:
| I still haven't gotten my check from the iPhone 6 battery
| scandal. I still have the phone. It is forever stuck on
| the wall now. They have no incentive to hurry up I guess.
| CoastalCoder wrote:
| IANAL, but I've heard that if you let the court know
| about situations like this, they'll often provide the
| necessary motivation to the responsible parties.
| CoastalCoder wrote:
| Thanks, I wasn't aware of that.
|
| (Cue next rant about class-action settlements. To make me
| whole, Sony would have needed to give me a full refund
| (with interest) or restore Linux compatibility.)
| omnimus wrote:
| It's not that i dont agree but the Terraria example is a bit
| unfair. First this is issue of the platform. On other platforms
| you can choose version of the game. And second Terraria is
| example of probably one of the most supported games. The update
| you are talking about brings massive amount of content and
| updates completely for free 9 years!!! after release. Most
| companies would milk the product with third sequel and dozens
| DLCs by that time.
| suifbwish wrote:
| No it's totally fair. They ruined the game by completely
| changing the controls irreversibly and making it unplayable
| on mobile.
| [deleted]
| gorjusborg wrote:
| I'm not trying to pick on Terraria, but I think it's a great
| example for the reasons you are bringing up.
|
| Even with the 'value add' of the update, I no longer play the
| game. Why? Because I invested in learning and mastering the
| game as it was when I bought it. The forced update removed
| all value _for me_ , and I'm the one who made the decision to
| buy it.
|
| If the product is changed significantly after purchase
| without my consent, then I feel I should be able to revisit
| my decision to purchase it. Otherwise, it's a sort of bait-
| and-switch scheme.
| hfsh wrote:
| > without my consent
|
| Not having read the TOS of the platform (or even ever
| having used it), I'll hazard a guess this isn't quite
| legally true.
| ohgodplsno wrote:
| > Total rip-off. I liked the game I bought, but it was replaced
| without my consent.
|
| Overreacting aside, control schemes can be customized again in
| 1.4.
| amelius wrote:
| > If part of the product I've paid for is software, and the
| company can update it without customer consent at any time,
| then I can't rely on the product's features. Period.
|
| That's about any electric car manufactured after 2020.
| gorjusborg wrote:
| I've never owned an electric car, but that doesn't surprise
| me. I'm curious whether you are just stating the fact, or
| suggesting that the practice is commonplace, therefore
| justified.
| paulryanrogers wrote:
| Can you remap the controls? IIRC my PS4 allowed swapping
| buttons and sticks at least. Not sure if those were per game
| though.
| mastazi wrote:
| > I tend to stay away from so-called 'smart' devices
|
| I tried several alternatives in terms of smart TV (Apple TV,
| Google/Android TV, Fire TV), and I could not find any platform
| that let me use all of the apps that I needed without resorting
| to casting from my phone. And in some cases there was a long
| process to follow in order to get the device to do what I
| needed[1], which involved activating developer mode,
| sideloading apps etc.
|
| In the end, I bought a wireless keyboard/touchpad combo and
| built a HTPC, reusing old components that I removed from my
| gaming PC after upgrading it over the years. I installed Ubuntu
| on it and never looked back.
|
| [1] For example not having the home screen being made of mostly
| ads, or having a simple web browser installed on the device
| garyfirestorm wrote:
| Have you tried nvidia shield?
| Tyr42 wrote:
| Did you see the update that shows ads for steaming services
| you don't have on the top 1/3 of the screen due to an
| update?
| fragmede wrote:
| > without resorting to casting from my phone
|
| I am curious, why is that undesirable for you? I'm assuming
| there's something more than lack of individual app support
| for casting.
| mastazi wrote:
| The TV is in my living room, I don't have my mobile with me
| when I'm home, it's usually sitting on the desk near its
| charger in the bedroom.
|
| If this TV was installed somewhere else e.g. in my
| workplace, then I would see your point.
|
| But even then, it's inconvenient having to pick up the
| phone isn't it?
|
| I'm using device X, and I have to pick up device Y in order
| to use device X. It's inconvenient for the same reason that
| tool-less screws are more convenient than ordinary screws.
| gknoy wrote:
| It's fairly inconvenient to have to use your phone as the
| remote, especially when you want to do something on your
| phone (or watch something else) while the kids watch
| netflix.
|
| We have disney+, and my TV apparently thinks we're not
| subscribed. My phone does, though, and I can cast from
| that. Yes, we can watch Encanto again, but it's very
| jarring when the normal interactions with the TV don't
| work.
| svnpenn wrote:
| This is why I disable updates for every piece of software that
| I use. People criticize this often, but it puts me in control.
| I can then review updates when I feel like it, and update as I
| see fit.
| colinmhayes wrote:
| I don't think the updates on this treadmill could be
| disabled. You have to connect it to the internet to use the
| screen and if it's connected it's getting updated.
| npteljes wrote:
| Linux and LineageOS are godsends in this regard too. I even
| like to maintain, update my things from time to time, but not
| always, and definitely not when Mr. Windows thinks it's the
| best thing to do right before my gaming time. Last time the
| stupid thing made me miss the time by half an hour, when all
| of my friends were waiting for me. I'm still salty about
| that.
| mcherm wrote:
| My solution to this problem would be legislation that allows
| customers, if they wish to, to return devices for a full refund
| if the company that manufactures the device makes a change that
| removes functionality that the customer valued. This doesn't
| prevent the company from making the change, it simply makes sure
| that they incur a cost for doing so, and it makes whole any
| customer affected by the change.
| klabb3 wrote:
| Wow this is by far the best solution to this pervasive problem
| I've seen, no irony. This way, you don't need legislators go
| into technical and domain specific detail. Producers are
| incentivized to provide optional updates or "downgrades" if
| necessary, and if they shut their cloud services off and brick
| the device, people have a right to return it. Additionally, it
| can't be abused by customers if the company acts well.
|
| However, we still need to tackle the subscription issue, I.e.
| That manufacturers can hide behind "you didn't renew the
| subscription for this printer/treadmill so now we brick it".
| Any ideas?
| rchaud wrote:
| You won't need legislators, but you will have to make your
| case to whoever is manning the returns department at Walmart.
| pjerem wrote:
| You misinterpreted. Of course you still need a judiciary
| process. But you'll won it because the law would clearly be
| on your side.
|
| Still hard to prove your case, but no company will take the
| risk because they could have thousands of customers ready
| to prove they have been abused.
| cwal37 wrote:
| This is related to why I bought a concept2 erg recently. Hurt my
| achilles and needed to switch to a low impact exercise, which I
| prefer to be able to do at home rather than going somewhere else
| (so swimming is out).
|
| Looked at Peloton, but it's about twice as much as an erg up
| front, has running costs each month, and what seemed to be many
| more points of failure (which includes the electronics). The
| Concept2[0] is a tank that should last me a very long time. Space
| is an issue (I had to shove my dining table to the side), but the
| workout is amazing and I have a lot of faith in the machine to
| last. Plus it has a pretty straightforward bluetooth connection
| if I want to get data out and multiple USB and ethernet ports on
| the very simple monitor it came with.
|
| [0] https://www.roguefitness.com/black-concept-2-rowerg-rower-
| pm...
| c0nsumer wrote:
| I normally ride a bike on a smart trainer during the winter
| (when not riding outside), but am planning to buy a Concept2
| Erg before next winter. It should be great for core and back
| strength, something cycling -- especially indoor cycling --
| benefits greatly from but just doesn't do.
|
| It's amazing to me just how (relatively) cheap the Concept2 is.
| Solid, well made, and reliable.
| cool_dude85 wrote:
| Concept 2 is indeed the cheaper and better option for an erg.
| Aside from being very sturdy machines at reasonable prices
| compared to your nordictracs and pelotons, old models are
| supported essentially forever with spare parts and detailed
| installation/fix instructions. I dont know of any rowers who
| don't swear by them.
| qqqwerty wrote:
| I picked up a model A for just this reason. $120 on
| craigslist for a 35 year old machine. It is super solid, but
| will need to replace a few minor parts soon. And from what I
| can tell they are all available for purchase from concept2,
| which is awesome.
| jurassic wrote:
| Concept2 machines are bomb proof. These things are designed for
| intensive use in gym settings which far outweighs the use I put
| in a single individual. I've put in countless meters on mine
| over the years and it's still practically good as new.
| prettyStandard wrote:
| I own a concept 2. I have 4.6 million meters on it. I watch
| programming videos in Spanish while I workout(To learn
| Spanish). This is my "Smart Workout Machine".
|
| https://imgur.com/a/HDE0939
| jdpedrie wrote:
| I have a concept2 rower as well. I didn't buy it for the
| SDK[0], but I love that they keep the tech minimal and provide
| tools for third party developers. It's a company I'm glad to
| support.
|
| [0] https://www.concept2.com/service/software/software-
| developme...
| anyfoo wrote:
| Following Wirecutter's suggestion, I got a ProForm 505 treadmill.
| Like Wirecutter said, it's cheap, a bit janky, but does the job
| adequately for a "non-pro" like me.
|
| When unpacking it and setting it up, there were multiple notices
| everywhere: On the packaging, as a separate note in the
| packaging, in the manual, on the treadmill itself. Those notes
| all said that the treadmill is "locked" and you need "online
| activation" to unlock it.
|
| I was getting very nervous, since I thought I bought something
| that does not need online activation.
|
| However I think it was also Wirecutter that mentioned that you
| can just press the iFit button for longer than 15 seconds--or was
| it 30 seconds?--and it's "unlocked". I did that once and it
| worked ever since, never needed to do anything online, or connect
| it via Bluetooth, WiFi or anything else.
| maurits wrote:
| The short and completely correct reason as to why my e-reader has
| never, and will never ever, be connected to wifi.
| abfan1127 wrote:
| how do you get content on it?
| maurits wrote:
| Kobo's used to have a memory card slot. No need to even
| connect it with usb.
| waffle_maniac wrote:
| I have an ebook reader mount I attach to the rafters. If I want
| to watch TV I set my laptop on some storage containers far back
| from the treadmill and put in my airpods. In both cases I'm
| looking straight ahead.
|
| Looking down at the NordicTrack screen doesn't seem ergonomic or
| comfortable. I don't get this article.
|
| Edit: From 2 points to 0. And probably going to go negative LOL.
| JasonFruit wrote:
| I don't think the article was about ergonomics or comfort, or
| about how to watch TV or read a book while on the treadmill. It
| was about buying a product that does certain things, and then
| having the company that made it change its functionality
| without your consent. The question is, should you or should you
| not have control of the products you buy?
| waffle_maniac wrote:
| Those interviewed in the article seemed to imply reading a
| book or watching TV was a grand pleasure. I'm disagreeing
| with that sentiment. I've found even a slight curve of my
| neck creates a lot of discomfort especially when running or
| walking.
| cecilpl2 wrote:
| > I've found even a slight curve of my neck creates a lot
| of discomfort especially when running or walking.
|
| Just because you personally had this experience doesn't
| mean that everyone does.
| danShumway wrote:
| > Those interviewed in the article seemed to imply reading
| a book or watching TV was a grand pleasure. I'm disagreeing
| with that sentiment.
|
| Right, but that's not really the point of the article. It's
| not positing a debate over whether or not people exist who
| would be uncomfortable curving their neck while running or
| walking. The article doesn't really care about that debate.
| It's asking whether or not people should have control of
| the products they buy.
|
| Imagine there's an article about a blender that stops
| working without manufacturer-approved ingredients, and
| someone says, "well I hate all of the recipes that people
| are making that aren't approved and I think they taste
| gross, so I don't understand what this article is about."
| In that scenario, we understand that the blender article is
| about consumer rights, not recipe tips, and whether or not
| someone personally likes what people are doing with their
| products isn't really important to that conversation.
|
| The treadmill article is about consumer rights, not
| ergonomics.
| CamperBob2 wrote:
| You're both right. It's outrageous that companies are allowed
| to get away with nerfing products you've already paid for by
| pulling new restrictions and limitations out of thin air... and
| it's also bad form to look down at an LCD panel on a treadmill
| while using it. 100% guarantee of a painful side stitch, at
| least for me.
| 300bps wrote:
| https://archive.is/J2BM8
| dschuetz wrote:
| Remember Sony removing OtherOS/Linux from the PS3? Yeah? No?
| That's the reason I don't buy Sony hardware anymore.
|
| See, the issue is decades old. But somehow people keep
| forgetting.
| rchaud wrote:
| I still bought the PS3 because PSN online play was free, while
| Xbox Live required a subscription. I think PSN is subscription-
| only now though.
| rchaud wrote:
| "God Mode"? What they describe is just how to access developer
| options on an Android device, isn't it?
|
| It doesn't provide root access or anything, just the ability to
| sideload apps and a few other things.
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