[HN Gopher] Letter from Union Pacific to LA District Attorney re... ___________________________________________________________________ Letter from Union Pacific to LA District Attorney re: train thefts, safety [pdf] Author : tomohawk Score : 77 points Date : 2022-01-18 20:50 UTC (2 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.up.com) (TXT) w3m dump (www.up.com) | fuzzer37 wrote: | >we estimate over 100 arrests have been made of active criminals | vandalizing our trains. | | I think the graffiti on trains looks cool. Much nicer looking | than the logos on the side. | ohCh6zos wrote: | I can't stand graffiti anywhere because it implies a lack of | respect for those around you. | nopenopenopeno wrote: | I agree. Advertising has gotten out of hand. It is insulting | to the citizens of our society, and often outright dishonest | as well. The advertising industry should be illegal. | AlexandrB wrote: | Would you apply this same standard to wearing a mask during a | pandemic? How about being vaccinated? | wolverine876 wrote: | What I see is someone taking ugliness and artlessness and | creating beauty. | greggman3 wrote: | Sometimes I see street art and I'm more mixed. But 99% of | the time it's just tagging and names. If you really believe | graffiti is ok then I'll be happy to come over and tag your | car, your laptop, your phone, your house. No complaining if | you don't like what I write or its style. | wolverine876 wrote: | That isn't what we are talking about. I don't recall any | graffiti on personal, private property. Usually it's on | highway overpasses, railcars, etc. | andjd wrote: | > On average, over 90 containers compromised per day. | | > 160% increase in criminal rail theft | | Combining these statistics indicates that UP was experiencing | over 56 containers compromised per day before the policy change. | | Compare that with the almost 50,000 containers daily that flow | through the Ports of LA and Long Beach. I don't know what | percentage of that UP handles, but I think it's safe to say that | even 90 containers is a small fraction. UP has insurance, and, | I'm sure treats a small percentage of thefts as the cost of doing | business. | | UP can increase their investment in securing their trains and | property. The alternative is the taxpayer spending a lot of money | on police and incarceration. The US's incarceration rate is | ridiculously higher that all other advanced economies. We can | probably find better things to spend all that money on. | DantesKite wrote: | The US justice system is the best in the world and one of the | reason's why capitalism has flourished so well here. It is by | no means perfect, but a free market only works when the rules | are enforced. | | Giving up on crime doesn't strike me as a sensible solution for | any community. See San Francisco et al. | throwaway946513 wrote: | > The U.S. justice system is the best in the world, and one | of the reasons... | | I'm sorry, but this is the first time I've heard such a | statement, and would like to know more. | gunfighthacksaw wrote: | The shariah justice system is the best in the world and one | of the reason's why Islam has flourished so well there. It is | by no means perfect, but a pious society only works when the | rules are enforced. | solumos wrote: | I'd rather live under sharia law than anarchy | akersten wrote: | By your math, how many containers per day were being | compromised were they to have said only a 100% increase in | criminal rail theft? | codekansas wrote: | Personally I'd rather not have big businesses carrying out | vigilante justice to secure their property | version_five wrote: | Some jurisdictions have the concept of "railway police" who | are sworn officers protecting the railway land. See the US | section for example: | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railroad_police | | They still work for the railway so there is some conflict but | I don't know that they'd by any more vigilante than regular | police, and they have a special status with the states | compared to security guards | chasd00 wrote: | > Personally I'd rather not have big businesses carrying out | vigilante justice to secure their property | | you mean like a security guard? That is very common | everywhere, at least in the US. | thrill wrote: | You only own what you can and will defend. | ajmurmann wrote: | That's why nobody in any developed country other than the | US owns anything. | gunfighthacksaw wrote: | Technically, no one owns property. True ownership is in | allodium (by virtue of you being there and keeping others | off) but there are no allodial land titles left except in | certain US states (Arizona and Texas?) but the Federal | government kind of supersedes them by virtue of having | the most and biggest guns and controlling all of the | surrounding land. | MarkLowenstein wrote: | This is often the opinion of people who don't see a cost to | them. I'm going to guess that | | (1) You don't live near one of these tracks where violence may | occur and violent individuals are congregating. | | (2) You don't know if anything you buy travels along these | tracks. | | (3) You are wealthy enough that a 0.1% increase in price | doesn't bother you. | | (4) You don't have kids growing up in that area who notice that | it's more profitable and easier to rob trains than to go | through school and produce something. | | (5) You aren't on a train crew whose lives are being | threatened. | | How am I doing so far? | [deleted] | solumos wrote: | > UP can increase their investment in securing their trains and | property. | | That's exactly what they're proposing/threatening: | | > As a result of Los Angeles County's rail theft crisis, | customers like UPS and FedEx that utilize our essential rail | service during peak holiday season are now seeking to divert | rail business away to other areas in the hope of avoiding the | organized and opportunistic criminal theft that has impacted | their own business and customers. Like our customers, UP is now | contemplating serious changes to our operating plans to avoid | Los Angeles County. We do not take this effort lightly, | particularly during the supply chain crisis, as this drastic | change to our operations will create significant impacts and | strains throughout the local, state, and national supply chain | systems. | | You'd think it would be common sense to not let repeat | offenders get off easy, but it looks like that's exactly what | the DA is doing here. Pretty simple case of "show me the | incentives and I'll show you the outcome" -- if you let people | rob trains with little to no consequences, they're going to | keep doing it. | leephillips wrote: | When I lived in DC and called around for contractors to do | things to my house, I encountered some who would not take jobs | in that city. It wasn't worth it to them, because tools were | routinely stolen from their trucks. Of course they could have | invested in guards and armored trucks. But it made more sense | to only do business in VA and MD, which had more effective law | enforcement. | | Toward the end of the letter UP warns of the same outcome: | unless the government starts doing its job they'll just avoid | LA. The end result of more businesses making this choice will | lead to LA becoming another Detroit. | jdavis703 wrote: | > The end result of more businesses making this choice will | lead to LA becoming another Detroit. | | That's not the only possible future. Another is that | contractors charge more for working in a high-risk area. | | For example urban grocery stores tend to have several | security guards, some which might be armed. And they charge | higher prices than their suburban counterparts (of course | higher rents, taxes, local minimum wages and what not also | contribute.) | zthrowaway wrote: | "They have insurance" is unfortunately a common phrasing in | defense of cities not enforcing the law. You do realize | insurance cost will increase the more it's used. | | How about the city just doesn't let criminals run rampant? From | what it seems, they are barely trying and they have a DA that | refuses to play ball anyways. | chasd00 wrote: | yeah isn't insurance costs based on a risk assessment? | Insurers aren't in the business of giving away money. | | edit: people will only put up with it for so long and then | you'll have vigilante squads running around which is a much | more dangerous and expensive problem than just enforcing | existing law | cissou wrote: | It's a 160% INCREASE, not a 60% one (you misread as +60%). But | even +60% year over year would be no joke. Your comment assumes | it'll stay constant but if the trend holds the required | investment in security could become sizable. Not that I even | see the case for not prosecuting crime just because << UP has | insurance >> (you sure their insurer will be happy to pay for | that crime and not raise premiums? Why should UP customers pay | for security directly when the rest of the country gets it | through actual police?) | fennecfoxen wrote: | > UP has insurance, and, I'm sure treats a small percentage of | thefts as the cost of doing business. | | And the revenues from shipping -- just revenues, let alone the | profits -- are a fraction of the value of the cargo. If, say, a | container full of new MacBooks gets broken into and looted, | that is going eat the profits they'd earn from a _lot_ of other | containers. While they have insurance, they pay for that | insurance, and unless the insurer is (a) stupid or (b) a | charity, they pay at least as much as the amount of the losses, | and probably more. | | UP and their customers seem to be uninterested in simply | shrugging, saying "insurance", and eating that cost. | | Oh, and then there's the risk to employees who may occasionally | be attacked or held at gunpoint. It doesn't take a lot of that | before the impact on your personnel becomes a drain, too, and | hiring is tight enough in this economy even _without_ asking | for people to risk life and limb. | | > UP can increase their investment in securing their trains and | property. The alternative is the taxpayer spending a lot of | money on police and incarceration. | | It looks like they propose to secure their trains and property | by doing business in places that are not Los Angeles. | ylhert wrote: | > UP can increase their investment in securing their trains and | property | | Not sure what more they can do, considering the fact that they | go so far as to weld these container shut now. | ilamont wrote: | _* On average, over 90 containers compromised per day. * In | partnership with Los Angeles Police Department (LAPD), Los | Angeles County Sheriff's Department (LASD), and California | Highway Patrol (CHP) we estimate over 100 arrests have been made | of active criminals vandalizing our trains. UP alone making | several dozens of arrests. * With our law enforcement partners we | have deterred hundreds of individuals from trespassing and | vandalizing our trains. * Of all those arrests, however, UP has | not been contacted for any court proceedings._ | | The damning thing here is the lack of prosecution for the arrests | that have happened. It's a clear message to offenders that they | can continue what they are doing with no serious consequences. | | However, a figure that's missing from Union Pacific's letter is | how much (or how little) UP has invested in security measures | since the theft wave began, or relative to another time period. | Symbiote wrote: | > UP by its own effort and cost enlisted additional and | existing Special Agents across the UP system to join our local | efforts with LAPD, LASD and CHP to help prevent the ongoing | thefts. We have also utilized and are further exploring the use | of additional technologies to help us combat these criminals | through drones, specialized fencing, trespass detection | systems, and other measures. | pempem wrote: | Maybe its because the LAPD has such a little budget? | | /s. | millzlane wrote: | >The damning thing here is the lack of prosecution for the | arrests that have happened. It's a clear message to offenders | that they can continue what they are doing with no serious | consequences. | | Also missing, is the figure of number of arrests that haven't | been prosecuted. That data should be out there somewhere. It's | interesting that no data to prove the theory has surfaced. | nathanvanfleet wrote: | That's what they are saying, the government isn't supplying | them with that data. | lazyasciiart wrote: | All prosecutions are public data. So the government may not | be serving it up on a plate, but they also must not be | trying to find out. | pmorici wrote: | UP implies they believe there have been zero prosecutions. If | there were any resulting from the arrests they made they | would have had to be involved as witnesses and they say they | haven't been contacted in that capacity. | dragonwriter wrote: | > UP implies they believe there have been zero prosecutions | | Under the California Victim's Bill of Rights they have a | right to information on this on request (but they don't | have to be provided with it proactively), so if they merely | "believe" this but can point to neither concrete | information or a failure to respond to inquiries, it means | they have _chosen not to ask_ to avoid their belief being | proven wrong. | | But, anyway, they don't say that, so its immaterial: they | specifically acknowledge prosecutions and convictions, they | are just upset that the DA is taking plea deals to charges | they feel are insufficiently serious rather than expending | more resources seeking convictions (and risking acquittals) | on more serious charges. | | (They also specifically are validating the argument of | anti-cash-bail advocates by portraying cash bail as a | punitive and disabling measure against unconvicted suspects | rather than a means of securing appearance.) | mikewarot wrote: | almost_usual wrote: | Interesting they choose the word vandalism here. I hope they're | distinguishing between someone doing graffiti and someone | breaking into a container and stealing what's inside it. | | Before anyone jumps to "well broken window" freight graffiti | has been a thing for like 40 years and has no correlation to | container robberies. | beerandt wrote: | Theft before the actual thing is taken would require at | minimum a proof of intent, and could still be problematic. So | vandalism is the "easiest" charge for those caught in the | act. | | And gets around one potential argument from prosecutors that | charges should be dropped. | mleo wrote: | The use of "vandalism" vs theft seems to be perspective. The | container was vandalized to access. The actual theft of items | within is secondary. Related use. I had a storage space where | the company said there was vandalism in the area of my locker | and I should come check. Sure enough it was broken into and | items had been taken. As far as storage company was | concerned, it was vandalism of their property and theft of | mine. | lazyasciiart wrote: | It's at best accidental lack of precision. It is inarguable | that graffiti is vandalization: it is _possible_ but | unlikely that they are using it here only to describe a | subset of the activities it means. | csdvrx wrote: | pempem wrote: | !!! | Ma8ee wrote: | /s? | csdvrx wrote: | No it's factual, it's a tragedy that will eventually | happen, if the DA decides to keep not enforcing law. UP | will be blamed, but IMHO it'll totally on the DA due to his | inaction. | AlexandrB wrote: | I agree with you as long as we apply the same standard to | "white collar crime". Embezzle money from your company? | Off to death row for you. Defraud investors? Death row. | Run a Ponzi scheme? Death row. | | Alternately, give defrauded investors the same rights you | suggest for property owners so they can hunt the guilty | party themselves. | csdvrx wrote: | I love of whenever we talk about "theft", people cry "but | what about wage theft". | | There's a clear difference in scope, amount, consequence | (...), so much that except having the same letter in the | same order, it's not the same thing. | | "Wage theft" means a small underpayment, which is (1) | directly and immediately found, (2) can be put to a stop | right after it happens by going to another job, (3) | carries financial consequences to someone with deeper | pocket, the employer. | | "Theft" in the case of the attacked trains is for much | larger amounts, is apparently unstoppable and carries 0 | consequences to the perpetrators - should they even be | found, charged and convicted, I don't think their estate | would be able to cover even a fraction of the losses. | | To your favor, you didn't mention "wage theft" (yet), but | here, you're doing essentially the same thing with a | bunch of similar words. | | FYI, all that you mention carry heavy consequences. Just | look at how it went for Holmes or Madoff. | integrii wrote: | Seems like you're suggesting that private security should be an | expected cost because the state will no longer protect you like | they have been for many years... | vkou wrote: | How much protection of their property can the average | American expect from the state? Very little. | | The only thing you can expect of the police will do for you | if you get burglarized is a signed police report, and if | you're lucky, unsolicited advice to move to a better part of | town. | | My wife's workplace gets stolen from fairly regularly. It's | _not_ located in one of those 'liberal' cities that | allegedly don't enforce any laws. | | Despite that, the police have yet to do anything about it. | | The primary function of the police is not, and has never been | protecting your property. The primary function of the police | is protecting the upper classes from you. | xyzzyz wrote: | I certainly did not expect the libertarian ideal of depending | for protection wholly on private security, instead of on the | state, to be first implemented in Los Angeles, of all places. | dragonwriter wrote: | UPs police force is not private security in the usual | sense. Those in CA are California peace officers, and all | of them are also specially federally empowered for | interstate operations. | | And this isn't new, major railroads have had these | publicly-empowered police forces since the late 19th | century. | bpodgursky wrote: | UP already has their own police. Why bother investing in | more, if none of the arrests result in charges? It's | pointless to spend more. | dragonwriter wrote: | > Why bother investing in more, if none of the arrests | result in charges? | | UP is not complaining that none of the arrests result in | charges. (They are complaining that the DA is settling for | plea deals to lesser charges than they would prefer and not | trying to employ cash bail as pre-conviction punishment for | disabling [by incarceration of those who can't afford it] | suspects and deterring potential future criminals instead | of not using it when it is not necessary to secure | appearance of a suspect legally presumed innocent.) | | Also, it's well known that sufficiently visible security is | a deterrent to crime, which is better than after-the-fact | arrests, so an eruption in undeterred crime is evidence of | a need for more and more visible security. | analog31 wrote: | To make an analogy, my dad worked at a large chemical | factory. It had its own full service fire department. This | department also participated in mutual aid with the | surrounding town. One thing they could do was provide | services that would normally not be a consideration for a | sleepy suburb, such as a bomb squad. | | I think if your business is particularly security intensive, | I don't see a reason not to supplement the basic services | provided by the government. There have always been railroad | police, armored car services, and so forth. | munificent wrote: | I don't think moving random manufactured products from | point A to point B should be considered "particularly | security intensive". This is just basic commerce and | logistics. | ilamont wrote: | Private security is an expected cost for any business (or | homeowner for that matter). Even if the local police | department is fully staffed, they certainly can't be | everywhere at all times, respond instantly to a report of | crime, or deal with issues that it is not staffed for such as | rampant technology-enabled crime. | | So, maybe the security is an investment in new cameras. Maybe | it's a better lock that can't be bypassed. Maybe it's an | investment in network security personnel or systems. Maybe | it's a doorman at the apartment building, or a security guard | serving as "eyes and ears" for the police. | | My question earlier is how much UP - a publicly listed | company with $20B in revenue in 2020 - has increased security | expenditures to keep up with traffic, theft, and other | potential threats to its business. | thatguy0900 wrote: | Insane that this discussion is happening like this. | Depending on the state for property protection is a basic | facet of a functioning government. Literal organized stage | coach robbery is not an issue anywhere else in the US, and | it is not UPs responsibility to deal with it, unless we | want to return to a period of private armies. | fennecfoxen wrote: | Fun fact -- contract work as railway police was one of | the original lines of business for the notorious | Pinkerton Detective Agency. | fennecfoxen wrote: | Camera's not going to do anything by itself if you can't | actually stop the person who is on the camera, and it's a | lot harder to stop that person if they're never going to | jail even when they're caught red-handed and arrested at | the scene. | | I mean, heck, if it comes down to it, Private Security can | also mean that UP just gives up on Los Angeles and its | eponymous port entirely. | lazyasciiart wrote: | Cameras provide evidence that is far more reliable and | simpler to present than testimony from a railway security | guard. This evidence could even be shared publicly to | support their case. | pmorici wrote: | They can't be everywhere at once but they should be | apprehending repeat offenders it sounds like they are | arresting plenty of criminals they just aren't being | prosecuted so they continue to rob and pillage. | bmarquez wrote: | > So, maybe the security is an investment in new cameras. | Maybe it's a better lock that can't be bypassed. Maybe it's | an investment in network security personnel or systems. | Maybe it's a doorman at the apartment building, or a | security guard serving as "eyes and ears" for the police. | | All of the things listed are simply deterrents, that would | not stop a criminal knowing that he would not get | prosecuted from taking the extra time to bypass them. | Cameras can be evaded with masks, locks can be grinded down | (see lockpickinglawyer), security is pointless if they know | they cannot be detained. | mikeg8 wrote: | You're asking a great question, but at the end of the day, | if criminals have no fear of repercussion, the "security" | investments are almost equal to throwing money away. | vorpalhex wrote: | UP already has passive monitoring, and active monitoring. | | They are in fact arresting people. | | Then the DA is not doing shit to charge those arrested. | | What more do you want UP to do? They are literally giving | criminals bagged and tagged to the police. | AlexandrB wrote: | Am I missing something or is the first bullet point completely | orthogonal to the second. They talk about train thefts on the | rise but then cite a statistic about "over 100 arrests" for | vandalism? How are these related? What are the stats for | arrests for theft? | greggman3 wrote: | As pointed out on other comments. From the train's POV the | train was vandalized but nothing that belongs the the train | company was stolen. The stuff that was stolen belong to other | entities. | | But yes, it would be good to know stats for both | dragonwriter wrote: | > From the train's POV the train was vandalized but nothing | that belongs the the train company was stolen. | | Trains are inanimate and don't have a POV, and from the | perspective of UP (which has a police force notionally | charged with addressing crimes on railway property, not | merely crimes against the railway), that's not correct if | an actual theft occurred. | mc32 wrote: | On face value that's pretty fanning of the current | prosecutorial office. | | It's a discouraging dereliction of duty to not follow up and | prosecute these criminals. These thefts not only hurt the | companies but also hurt each buyer who will have to pay | indirectly for the added cost of operations. | | As I mentioned in the previous thread, we may yet see a | Pinkerton service rise to meet this need. | Miner49er wrote: | > These thefts not only hurt the companies but also hurt each | buyer who will have to pay indirectly for the added cost of | operations. | | Is this damage more then the cost of prosecuting and | punishing the thieves? If not, it's not worth it. | chasd00 wrote: | i wonder if the cheapest option is better locks on the | containers | fennecfoxen wrote: | Better locks only help until the point where it's easier | to mangle the shipping container itself, bypassing the | lock entirely, and impenetrable containers are needlessly | expensive. | pempem wrote: | Well, first they need to be caught and brought up on | charges. Then they can be prosecuted. | | The bigger question is where even is the LAPD? | fennecfoxen wrote: | Per the letter, the question is NOT, "where even is the | LAPD." It is, "where are the Los Angeles County | prosecutors?" And the answer Union Pacific provides is, | "letting these people who are arrested go free with a | plea deal for simple trespassing." | zaroth wrote: | They are being caught and arrested. Then the DA lets them | go, so they go back and steal more, and spread the word | that nothing happens even when you _do_ get caught. | fennecfoxen wrote: | > Is this damage more then the cost of prosecuting and | punishing the thieves? If not, it's not worth it. | | It's not a question of whether _this_ damage is more, it 's | a question of whether the prosecution would reduce the | total amount of future-damage that occurs as well. People | who are in a jail are not stealing. People who expect | significant risk of significant jail time are also not | stealing, while those who expect minimal risk might be. | | These factors easily outweigh the cost of any single theft. | mc32 wrote: | Non-prosecution sends a signal "it's okay, we will not | prosecute you". Less scrupulous people learn there is no | prosecution and this becomes a routine drag on rail | commerce. In Nigeria you get people who hijack petrol | transportation --often times they lead to fiery explosions. | It's not a path we should want to devolve to. The middle | ages had highway men. We want to avoid going backwards. | xyzzyz wrote: | > Is this damage more then the cost of prosecuting and | punishing the thieves? If not, it's not worth it. | | This naive first order thinking is why we can't have nice | things. Yes, prosecuting a guy for stealing $100 headphones | might cost more than the merchandise, but you cannot think | about this in isolation from broader social context. By | showing that you will not prosecute crimes under certain | monetary value, you're sending a signal that these can now | be done with no consequence, in effect _enabling_ more and | more crime to happen. It's not about a pair of headphones, | it's about the career of crime for the perp you're | enabling, and the crime careers of the imitators. | avalys wrote: | What does a single prosecution and court case cost? A few | thousand dollars, at a minimum. | | So you are saying any crime that causes less than a few | thousand dollars worth of damage is not worth prosecuting? | | How would you like it if I were to break in to your house | through a window (a $1,000 expense) and steal your $2,500 | MacBook Pro? The $3,500 in damages is less than the cost of | identifying, arresting, prosecuting and punishing me. Not | worth it - just let it go? | bpodgursky wrote: | Pinkertons (or any private security) basically have no | authority to use lethal force anymore (unless the criminal is | dumb enough to attack them), so their value as a deterrent is | minimal. | | They can theoretically arrest, but if the prosecutors don't | press charges, it's meaningless. | dilap wrote: | gpm wrote: | The letter doesn't support that the prosecutors are not | following up and prosecuting these criminals, rather it says | the exact opposite. | | Rather, the complaint seems to be that the government is | granting the criminals their constitutional rights to bail | and a presumption of innocence before trial, that the | prosecution is accepting milder plea deals than the railroad | company would like, and that the court system is backed up. | | Emphasis added to the below quote to support each of those | statements | | > Criminals are caught and arrested, turned over to local | authorities for booking, arraigned before the local courts, | _charges are reduced to a misdemeanor or petty offense_ , and | the criminal is released after paying a nominal fine. These | individuals are generally caught and released back onto the | streets in less than twenty-four hours. Even with all the | arrests made, _the no-cash bail policy_ and _extended | timeframe for suspects to appear in court_ is causing re- | victimization to UP by these same criminals. | | This is the railroads side of the story, and even it doesn't | support the idea that the prosecutors are just "not | follow[ing] up and prosecut[ing] these criminals". | | Moreover the court system being backed up is not prosecutors | fault, and not offering mild plea deals would just result in | a more backed up court system... | | There are probably some valid criticisms of the prosecutors | here, but let's at least consider that there are tradeoffs | they are making, and that this isn't something that is solely | their fault. | avalys wrote: | If people are being caught stealing from trains and the | same people are walking out of court and going to rob the | next train in the same location again the next day, then | yes, the government, the prosecution and the court system | are failing in their duty here. | bsder wrote: | Then change the funding of the law enforcement system so | that it is supported by tax dollars rather than fines. | | Then you can change enforcement priority as the offenders | change priority. | mywittyname wrote: | Our legal system is expensive, and much of that expense is | baked into the constitution. | | Most of our justice system is designed to prioritize | offenses that make money for the government/police/DA. | Which means, focusing on drug offenses. Any crime | tangentially-related to drugs can result in civil asset | forfeiture. DUIs result in massive fines, so those get | attention too. But theft is a cost-center crime and is | largely ignored. | [deleted] | threatofrain wrote: | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29963125 | | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29930970 | millzlane wrote: | Think OP is correcting his post from yesterday. Where a | commenter suggest he link to the letter instead of the opinion | piece. | | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29962006 | fennecfoxen wrote: | + photo gallery attached to the LA Times coverage of the same: | the train tracks are just _littered_ with piles of torn-open | shipping boxes | | https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-01-15/photos-r... | Overtonwindow wrote: | IANL: What is the rules for use of force for railroad police, or | railroad authorities protecting cargo? It seems people are | breaking into these cars without fear of force, or prosecution. | Combined, those are like a powder keg of lawlessness. | asdff wrote: | It would be a bad idea to use force against train robbers. They | would just start packing guns themselves. Often times these | robberies are coordinated by organized crime who control | robbery rights over certain sections of track. | thinkingemote wrote: | These appear to be two groups, opportunistic, and organized. | I imagine some basic security hardening would deter the | opportunistic ones but different strategies would be needed | for organised groups. | integrii wrote: | Are you suggesting people should not defend property because | the attackers will just escalate force and continue their | crimes? | | Then by that logic, I now understand the push to reduce the | punishment of so much crime. | treeman79 wrote: | Basic criminals don't like being shot. Large reason why gun | free cities are so dangerous. | Ma8ee wrote: | Are gun free cities more dangerous? Could you provide a | source for the claim? | [deleted] | treeman79 wrote: | Look at Chicago. | | Google suppresses nearly all pro gun or right wing | content, so searching on mobile is difficult. | [deleted] | djrogers wrote: | > Often times these robberies are coordinated by organized | crime who control robbery rights over certain sections of | track | | That doesn't appear to be the case here from all accounts | I've read - do you have any citations for that? | | Everything I'm reading is pointing the finger addicts, the | homeless, and homeless addicts... | thinkingemote wrote: | The letter mentions they are opportunists and organised. | I'm reading that as 2 classifications of criminals. | thaumasiotes wrote: | > What is the rules for use of force for railroad police, or | railroad authorities protecting cargo? It seems people are | breaking into these cars without fear of force, or prosecution. | | You can use whatever force you want to respond to piracy on the | open sea, including killing the pirates. But that hasn't been | done even when we had a lot of complaints about active piracy. | | It seems possible that Union Pacific worries that municipal | authorities wouldn't be any happier with the idea of UP | defending itself than they are with the idea of prosecuting the | people UP hands over to them. | chasd00 wrote: | i could see a market for remote operated, boxcar mountable, | high volume pepper spray devices. You'd have to staff | operators but at least they'd be sitting in an office instead | of wandering up and down the tracks. | | maybe even a boxcar escort service via drone with pepper | spray paintball guns. | fakethenews2022 wrote: | Killing pirates has been done relatively recently. There was | even a movie starring Tom Hanks based on one such incident | entitled "Captain Phillips". Also, that was not the only nor | last incident when pirates were killed. | liversage wrote: | Denmark recently killed four suspected pirates in Bay of | Guinea (actually five as it was later discovered). The Danish | forces were fired at while trying to apprehend the suspected | pirates so you can argue it was self defense and the intent | was not to kill. | | https://www.reuters.com/world/danish-frigate-kills-four- | susp... | avidiax wrote: | > IANL: What is the rules for use of force for railroad police, | or railroad authorities protecting cargo? | | Also NAL. Force has to be proportional. That means that an | unarmed trespasser stealing property can't be shot, only | detained. | | > It seems people are breaking into these cars without fear of | force, or prosecution. | | I'm sure they have some fear. I doubt that they want to get | caught, since it's at least a few hours or a weekend in jail to | get processed. As far as prosecution goes, if I were a | criminal, I'd either naively think that I'll never get | caught/prosecuted, or just accept that it might happen at any | time, but I prefer theft now over avoiding maybe-prosecution in | the future. | | > Combined, those are like a powder keg of lawlessness. | | There's no powderkeg here, so long as we don't escalate. If | prosecutions don't start, the likely thing to happen is that | the railyards will improve physical security (e.g. razorwire | fencing everywhere, reduce trains at rest), improve their | security forces and response times, and pass any remaining | expense onto the customers. | wolverine876 wrote: | > It seems people are breaking into these cars without fear of | force, or prosecution. | | What is that based on? I am aware that's a trendy thing to say | about crime, but many trendy things have no basis in reality. | What is the factual basis for the criminals' motives and | perspectives? | newbamboo wrote: | "all those arrests, however, UP has not been contacted for any | court proceedings." | | They've tried to recall gascon already for this, but the voters | want him and his policies. If UP doesn't like it they should | bypass LA. It's a sinking ship anyway, politely asking for | "leadership" is laughably naive. California has one party for all | intents and purposes and voters are too afraid because the elite | tell them it's too dangerous to vote outside The Party. | x3n0ph3n3 wrote: | Related discussion: | | Train burglaries in LA - | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29930970 | [deleted] | cjbgkagh wrote: | I've had 3 of 3 packages go missing in the last two months, all | traveling via train through L.A. Either I'm rather unlucky or the | thefts are rather thorough. I see some people complaining about | their packages being stolen, but if the thefts are that thorough | I would expect to see many more. My conspiracy brain can't help | but imagine the possibility that discussion of this is being | gently suppressed because business don't want people to stop | buying things. I've had to stop buying things for now. I hope | this is properly resolved soon. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-01-18 23:00 UTC)