[HN Gopher] A tour to my Zettelkasten note clusters ___________________________________________________________________ A tour to my Zettelkasten note clusters Author : tslmy Score : 143 points Date : 2022-01-19 16:42 UTC (6 hours ago) (HTM) web link (lmy.medium.com) (TXT) w3m dump (lmy.medium.com) | oxff wrote: | I will always run into these threads to state that: these tools | will not help you until you yourself have organized your | thoughts! You can't have messy idea of a subject topic or some | category of ideas and "just" use Zettelkasten or some other | method or tool to unfuck it. | | And now when that's done, I just use a set of markdown files and | some kind of Zettelkasten indexing system. | | e. also this graph understanding of ZK is misunderstood way to do | ZK. | tomerbd wrote: | Do you actually read the notes you write in obsidian or is it | just a waste of time? | tslmy wrote: | I do. Many posts on my blog (https://lmy.medium.com/) are | brainchildren from those notes. | softwarebeware wrote: | Thanks for the article! It's interesting to see how your notes | cluster and what you can glean from them. I have a single file, | people.md, that I keep important notes about 1-on-1's I've had | with others in. | | Also: I'm a big fan of customized personal note-taking using open | standards. I didn't intend to do this, but somehow over time I | ended up rolling my own note-taking approach and "software" (if | you can call a shell script that) which is too lightweight to | have any kind of visualization piece. If you're interested in | reading about that journey, it's found at | https://dev.to/scottshipp/an-amazing-note-taking-system-with... | xenodium wrote: | Org mode is very dear in this space (to us Emacs users anyway). | I'm an iPhone user and was missing quick access to my content | (view/add/edit) while on the go. Org is a rich markup, but I've | been slowly chipping at my own iOS app with https://plainorg.com. | | Compared to markdown, our non-Emacs org options are few but here | are others I know about: | | https://beorg.app | | https://braintool.org | | https://flathabits.com (I author this one too) | | https://organice.200ok.ch | | https://orgro.org | | http://orgzly.com | | Karl Voit also has a great effort going to advocate org outside | of Emacs and documents some of the tools at | https://gitlab.com/publicvoit/orgdown/-/blob/master/doc/Tool... | | edit: formatting | tconfrey wrote: | Worth mentioning here that LogSeq can work with markdown _or_ | org-mode files. In my personal setup one of my LogSeq nodes | points to my BrainTool.org file which holds all my bookmarks, | web-resource pointers and associated notes. This way I can | bounce between working in Chrome, emacs and LogSeq all | referencing the same underlying data model. (With Orgzly for a | read-only view on my phone.) | | See also org-roam (https://www.orgroam.com/) - an emacs-native | bidirectional linking PKM solution. | sp33der89 wrote: | Love the org support in LogSeq! Probably the deciding factor | why I chose it over Dendron(which is great as well). | | LogSeq also has experimental Android support: | https://github.com/logseq/logseq/releases/tag/0.5.8 | 1MachineElf wrote: | Thank you so much for pointing out upcoming Android | support! That's a huge factor for me. | | Which of those downloads is an Android app? I didn't see an | APK, which is usually how they come. | | Edit: Nevermind. I see they link to the nightly release | where a working version can be obtained[0]. Running it now. | | [0] https://github.com/logseq/logseq/releases/tag/nightly | drcode wrote: | How useful to people find these "cluster graphs" to be, which are | so popular in zettelkasten/pkms systems? It seems to me it would, | instead, be more helpful to just have a table of the most | connected nodes, sorted by # of connections. | chaoz_ wrote: | Interesting idea with "Personal CRM". Do you feel like it helped | to improve your relationship with close friends or family? | bikingbismuth wrote: | This reminds me of my personal Wiki that I use to keep track of | information at work (I also use Obsidian for this). I start a | daily note in the morning and write everything in there until the | end of the day, where I have some time set aside to chopping up | the information into the appropriate pages. It took a bit for | this system to pay off, but when I was writing employee reviews | and co-worker feedback, it was almost effortless. I have started | to accumulate a critical mass of information that is giving me | little hints of insights I hope to be able to leverage this year. | | I am still working on actually implementing a personal ZK system | in Obsidian or on paper (I am looking forward to Scott Scheper's | book about Antinets). I manage people and write software for a | living, but I don't really write articles or papers (which ZK | seems a good fit for). I just finished "How to Take Smart Notes" | by Sonke Ahrens, and it has inspired me to take another pass at | starting a ZK for the benefits of greater understanding and | insight about the variety of topics I read about. | nja wrote: | > until the end of the day, where I have some time set aside to | chopping up the information into the appropriate pages | | Your way of working sounds wonderful, but I find that I would | probably struggle with this part. How are you able to define | the end of your day and ensure you have such time marked off? I | have tried this but always end up getting sucked into endless | other issues/problems/etc and basically passing out at some | point, only to wake up the next day to dive right in -- no time | to be able to do that sort of retrospective note-munging... | | (this is not exclusive to trying to find retrospective time; it | applies to things like finding time for food/dinner, blocking | out vacation time, or other things, too. work never ends!!) | pseudoramble wrote: | Not OP, but I feel compelled to answer. I have lots of my own | thoughts and feelings on the topic. I'll leave it at two | framing thoughts: | | If you literally can't find time to eat, how will you even be | able to function to execute work, let alone anything higher | level than that? I know you probably didn't mean literally no | time to eat, but my broad point is how can you work hard | indefinitely without caring about your physical self | reliably? | | If your workload will never end, what exactly are you racing | against by working as hard as you can every day? Even if you | 100% everything for one day, you're guaranteed to have just | as much or more the next day, right? What are you gaining by | battling every day until you give out? | tra3 wrote: | You gotta schedule it. I do it first thing in the morning, I | have a template checklist that goes through everything so I | don't have to think: | | - [ ] write for 5 minutes | | - [ ] check inbox | | - [ ] process yesterday | | - [ ] schedule today | edu wrote: | Sorry about being snarky, but you had time to post this | comment. | lornajane wrote: | I'm a big fan of the evergreen note-taking approach, but my | diagram is nothing like as pretty as this one. Apparently I don't | link between pages much. | tslmy wrote: | There's no such thing as "pretty diagrams", lornajane. I | believe you simply has boarder interests in life which | inherently make inter-links less realistic. | ar_lan wrote: | Aren't Evergreen notes effectively just the Zettelkasten? | uptownfunk wrote: | Capturing notes in a decent UI seems to be a solved problem and | there are a lot of tools out there for the job. Searching through | a lot of notes also seems to be a solved problem. | | However, the structured organization of a large collection of | notes (think thousands to tens of thousands of notecards in | boxes..) as well as the finding connections between seemingly | unrelated notes doesn't seem to be a solved problem. Does anyone | know of any solutions in this space? Zettelkasten (per my | understanding) seems to make this manual on part of the note- | taker, but (1) this is super time consuming and (2) very hard to | keep track of all the note cards as the collection grows over | time. | etherio wrote: | I'm trying to do that with a new project that uses Natural | Language Processing. (see gif at | https://twitter.com/uzpg_/status/1483140905943146502) | | Basically it generates an automated graph of relations between | your notes and tries to find which "ideas" group them. | | I'll probably post the Show HN soon once I make it public! | uptownfunk wrote: | Cool! I really think this could be huge. Finding connections | between ideas is basically the genesis of innovation. Would | be very interested to see/learn about your approach. | stephendause wrote: | I think part of the point of Zettelkasten is that by manually | making the links yourself, you are forming the associations in | your brain, which is part of the learning, thinking, and | remembering process. | | I am just now learning about it from the book How to Take Smart | Notes, so I could be off, but that's part of the idea. With | that said, I think what you suggest could possibly be a cool | supplement or replacement. | Jeff_Brown wrote: | I maintain an offensively big knowledge graph, and I feel | like you're both right -- building those connections manually | is both mind-expanding and somewhat labor intensive. | | If I have a conversation with X and discover they're an | expert about Y, learning fact Z, I like to record Z as a | file, and link it to both X and Y. That forces me to keep X | and Y as entities in the graph. Which, if I care about them, | is worth doing. | | The real beauty of making those connections is the act of | classifying something can cause you to explicitly recognize | what concepts it is related to, and formulate precisely what | the connection is. | | The real pain point is knowing what your future self will | wish your past self kept a file on. Some ideas (generally | more social science-related ones, but also something like a | bug involving the interaction of a lot of disparate | technologies) are so cross-cutting that I'd need to make five | parent concepts to file them "completely", and often then I'd | like to file those parent concepts further. I generally | don't. | Jeff_Brown wrote: | I used to use Semantic Synchrony, for which the creation | and linking processes are much faster. Every little | keypress counts. My SmSn graph is as a result much more | connected than my org-roam graph. I still refer to it, but | try not to build it out much, because the Git review | process is so time consuming. For me org-roam's killer | feature is that version control is so easy. | supperburg wrote: | beepbooptheory wrote: | supperburg wrote: | smegsicle wrote: | In the US, karaoke exists as a form of standup comedy. | tslmy wrote: | I'm very confused. Karaoke definitely exists in China. Maybe | they go by a different name: KTVs. | | Yes. Stand-up comedies are also huge in China: | | - "Single-standing Comedy" in Beijing: | http://www.danlirencomedy.cn/ and | https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeN0myzkjm2BDjaBZ5C3Qng | | - "No-name Comedy" in Nanjing: https://www.wumingxiju.com/ | | - Fun Factory in Shanghai: | https://www.linkedin.com/company/%E4%B8%8A%E6%B5%B7%E7%AC%91... | | Cunningham's law at work. | supperburg wrote: | hadjian wrote: | I use org-mode, just FYI. I was wondering however: everyone | shares how they store things, but how often or even how do you | query your knowledge base? | | There are often tips for creating habit to write down things ,,at | the end of the day" or such. But can anyone describe some habits | when to consume this stuff? I'd be interested. Thx. | galfarragem wrote: | I'll bite. My answer to the "Million dollar question": _How to | make useful notes?_ | | - Notes are not "write-only": progressively summarize and tree- | shake your notes each time you iterate them. You'll leverage | your excitement instead of forcing discipline. | | - Ideally, notes are organized by project, not by category. It | can be a catalyst for action and reviews. | | - Only store things that surprise you, not stuff you already | know. | programmer_dude wrote: | Some things you "know" today may surprise you "tomorrow". I | have a massive collection of notes. I am constantly surprised | by what I used to know and how much I have forgotten. Such is | life I guess. | bachmeier wrote: | I'm using PouchDB to query the small stuff that comes at me | during the day like tasks, links, reminders, etc. One simple | html file plus a little Javascript (even I can write that) is | all it takes. I've tried more elaborate approaches, but they | never lasted. | hadjian wrote: | Thanks for the answers. I think I realize that there is a | difference between a todo list (have to do it) and a knowledge | base (let's organize what I've learned). | | The former I also do with org-mode and then use the archiving | feature for things I put to DONE. | | I oftentimes do the latter, but don't actually use it that | often. In college, I used to summarize text-books, which helped | me memorize my learnings. After finishing the book, by chapter | summary served as a shorter version of the book. Was quite | effective. | | Haven't been successful in replicating this for work, though. | tconfrey wrote: | I've also been a plain emacs then org-mode note taker for a | number of years. I keep a log.org file with dated items | containing notes from meetings and major project actions of the | day. I generally have my laptop open during meetings making | notes in realtime. After a meeting, or whenever, I'll tag | things and note any follow ups, TODOs or things to remember. | | I have a terrible memory for proper nouns but I can generally | remember enough context so that a quick backward search in my | notes buffer can get me back to the name of the person, team, | customer, project, action item etc that I'm looking for. (EG it | probably has this tag, or it came up during my meeting with | Riley, or last Monday, or during the sprint planning meeting | etc). I'm now fast enough at this that I can often start | talking and do a search in time to mention the 'thing' by the | time I need to refer to it. | | I see this model as somewhat different than the more | reflective, bi-directional link driven, PKM tools being | discussed here. Its a great feeder into such a system (IMO) | where more active curation can take place. Plus even if there's | never any curation I still have all my todo's, calendaring etc | accessible to org's agenda features! | reidjs wrote: | You need to pick a directory/file structure that works for you. | Some people (including myself in the past) use a massive single | append only markdown file, so querying is as easy as CMD + F. | | I realized I was almost never editing/updating old notes within | the massive append-only file, so now I have a at-most-one- | folder-deep directory with somewhat descriptive file names. I | still have some append-only type files, mainly in the form of | logs. If I can't think of a name for the file, I just name it | with today's date and try to put it into the "best" folder. | Sometimes it's ambiguous where the best place is, so I usually | put these files in the root directory until they make sense to | put somewhere else. | choward wrote: | A little of topic but I tried Obsidian out even though it isn't | "free" software. I could still use it without the paid features. | Then one day I went looking for the source and discovered it | wasn't open source. That's when I stopped using it. | | There was discussion on open sourcing it but I'm not holding my | breath. Does anyone have any additional info on this? | | https://forum.obsidian.md/t/open-sourcing-of-obsidian/1515/1... | | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23324598 | tslmy wrote: | I am completely unaware of that. Thanks for bringing it up! | This may tilt my decision in choosing a note-taking platform. | [deleted] | black_puppydog wrote: | That's the _first_ thing I check for _any_ system that would, | if adopted, become a life-long thing. Zettelkasten is supposed | to be exactly that: an ever-growing collection of linked notes, | growing more useful the longer you stick with it. | | I never understood why anyone would accept linking this sort of | system to any third party, no matter how sound their business | model, no matter how much trust you may put into the | individuals running the company. | groby_b wrote: | Slightly different take: OSS is the _second_ thing I check. | | The first one is data export. If it's a closed component that | still generates value _and I can capture that value via | export_ , OSS becomes a tie-breaker between otherwise | equivalent tools. | | Obsidian is an editor on top of a bunch of markdown files. If | they go away, meh. The world is not running out of Markdown | text editors. Sync is an add-on feature, so I can sidestep | potential privacy concerns there. | | A working system always beats waiting for a perfect system. | jrm4 wrote: | FWIW - I'm a huge FOSS guy, but I went ahead and paid for | Obsidian because it looked so good and it at least feels as if | "saving in pure Markdown" is darn near equivalent, or at least | a reasonable non-free alternative experiment; i.e. I'm not sure | if this is as good as FOSS, but it's interesting enough for me | to throw a few dollars at to see what happens. | | In theory, seems like a fine idea. But for, me, in practice, I | went back to https://zim-wiki.org (like I pretty much always | do.) Not exactly sure what that says about it all, or if it | much matters. | | One thought though is that Obsidian feels "overloaded," almost | as if it wasn't allowed to grow naturally like Zim did? | rjzzleep wrote: | I have used zim in the past, and I didn't like zettelkasten | because of the autogenerated magic. | | I also just learned about obsidian for the first time in this | thread and it looks pretty impressive, but I do agree that | the onboarding is a bit hard and all the plugins while | impressive are also a bit overwhelming. | | But it's interesting that the core plugins including things | like slides which is definitely something that is great to | have | Naac wrote: | I mentioned this in another comment, but you should check out | tiddlywiki[0] with the mind map plugin[1] | | [0] https://tiddlywiki.com/ | | [1] https://github.com/felixhayashi/TW5-TiddlyMap | drhayes9 wrote: | My favorite example of a Zettelkasten in Tiddlywiki is this | one: https://zettelkasten.sorenbjornstad.com | | The author also has a site called "Grok TiddlyWiki" that | helped me tremendously when starting out with TW: | https://groktiddlywiki.com/read/ | | I use TiddlyWiki and love it. Because TW's UI and | functionality is based on individual "tiddlers" within the | wiki (just like your notes), adding functionality becomes | part of the wiki itself -- a fusion I like compared to other | plain-text note tools that keep the note-taking and note- | storing separate. | grumblepeet wrote: | Can definitely recommend Tiddlywiki. Ive just spent several | weeks implementing a mini ZettelKasten using Tiddlywiki. It | is created in 'exploded' mode in NodeJS and then a script | runs to re-assemble it into a single html file (with the | images in a separate folder) and then I push it to GitHub | where it is published on to a personal domain. It is visible | here: https://chloetiddlykasten.chloegilbert.me | | I used the template (TZK) created by Soren Bjornstad to build | it. | Macha wrote: | Before I used Obsidian, I used VS code and a folder of markdown | notes. In general, if Obsidian went evil, I could take my | existing note setup and go back to that, much as I started with | it when I used Obsidian. I'd lose some of the nice todo list | setup I have but I know I could write a custom program to | replicate that and if it bothered me enough I could even figure | out how to write VS code plugins. | | So while I'd prefer an open source solution, I'm not in a huge | rush, though I am keeping an eye on logseq's evolution. | bachmeier wrote: | Logseq is somewhat different from Obsidian, since it's an | outliner. IMO Dendron would be a better replacement for | Obsidian. Particularly so if you're already using VS Code. | tekacs wrote: | So Logseq [1] is open (AGPLv3), also markdown with no lock in, | more powerful in some key ways than Obsidian (it has block | links, which I'll let others expound on the benefit of or edit | this when I'm at my desk). | | The main thing it's lacking for now is good mobile support, for | which folks still use Obsidian mobile... | | [1]: https://logseq.com/ | Sugimot0 wrote: | It's lacking _good_ support for mobile, but the mobile app is | usable, and in active development. I use it daily with no | issues. It mostly just lacks a no-frills setup for syncing | notes on multiple devices, but they are developing a | subscription for backup /sync hosted by them (I use | syncthing, but others have used iCloud and google drive). | | To build on the features mentioned there's also: | | - A community marketplace for plugins and themes | | - Simple customization and extensibility | | - A builtin PDF viewer with highlighting and linking | nopenopenopeno wrote: | The builtin pdf viewer is terrible, though. It doesn't even | have search. | lornajane wrote: | This is a really good point, I am using Obsidian but I feel OK | about the proprietary-ness of it because at the end of the day, | it's a nice tool to read my well-organised folder of markup | files with. It's possible I live to regret this ... | riffic wrote: | it doesn't need to be open source for me. | | you could look at vscode pkms plugins like Dendron or Foam. | for_i_in_range wrote: | There are other downsides with Obsidian as well. The thought | development Luhmann experienced is watered down in the | instantiation of Zettelkasten that obsidian provides. If you're | interested in an alternative approach, I've been using the | Zettelkasten system the way Luhmann did for the past year. | Here's a behind the scenes look at writing a book using a | physical Zettelkasten: https://youtu.be/fRgIX4azYOs | igorkraw wrote: | Could you be more specific what's missing? | for_i_in_range wrote: | It's not analog (writing by hand and doing things the hard | way pays off. It did for Luhmann and continues to do so for | many others who use notecards). Second, numeric-alpha | addresses per card with strict character count | restrictions. Third, tree-like structure for branching | thoughts infinitely. Fourth, an index that forces one to | neuro-imprint keyterms in their mind to act as cues for | thought. All of these create a unique structure Luhmann | communicated with. Obsidian = bubbles that connect markdown | files. Completely different concept. It's not a | zettelkasten even though people have hijacked the term and | ensconced it with digital notetaking apps. This is my | opinion. | kd5bjo wrote: | Obsidian is just a tool, like notecards are; you set your | own process and organization. With the exception of | handwriting in place of typing, it's entirely possible to | set up an Obsidian workflow with all of the properties | you list here. | | My Obsidian vault, for example, is organized into 2 | parts: Ad-hoc notes and an organized zettelkasten. This | latter part is a single flat directory with Luhmann-style | alphanumeric hierarchical addresses as file names. My | first task every day is to split up the previous day's | ad-hoc notes and file them in the zettelkasten, which | naturally leads to a review of the existing material as I | look for the proper place in the sequence. | thi2 wrote: | Is there an opensource/selfhosted alternative to obsidian? | Naac wrote: | You should take a look at tiddlywiki, which has a mind map | plugin[0] | | [0] https://github.com/felixhayashi/TW5-TiddlyMap | McSido wrote: | It might not be a direct alternative, since it's not using | markdown files directly, but I really like Trilium notes | (https://github.com/zadam/trilium). | | It's open source, you can selfhost it and you can write your | own scripts in JS to really make it your own. | nopenopenopeno wrote: | I didn't like moving to Obsidian from Joplin for this reason, | but Obsidian is so much more useable because it stores | everything in a regular file hierarchy. It also has a better | UI. And above all, I absolutely hate Joplin's "every note is a | folder" approach. | deckard1 wrote: | > absolutely hate Joplin's "every note is a folder" approach | | that's not true. They have notebooks and sub-notebooks, which | form a tree on the left. To the right of that is a list of | notes within that notebook. | nopenopenopeno wrote: | The result is the same. Every sub-notebook is a notebook | that can contain more sub-notebooks, but there is no such | thing as a mere folder that can be placed inside another | folder without also creating a confusing space where notes | can hide inside the notebook but not alongside its sub- | notebooks. | | The other way to interpret it is just a very poorly planned | UI that uses separate panes to list folders and notes that | are located in the same hierarchy position. Either way, | it's madness. | kstrauser wrote: | That bothers me, too. On the other hand, I haven't found a good | Free replacement for it, and there's zero lock-in: its database | is just a folder of Markdown files. If it stopped working | tomorrow, I'd still have all of my content in a convenient | format, ready to start using with another app. | npretto wrote: | There's also obsidian-export[1] that converts the few things | that are not plain markdown (`[[links]` and `![[links]]`). | | To be honest, obsidian not being open source doesn't bother | me too much, what is important to me is that I own the data | and that it is in a fairly common format so i can move it to | another software in 10 years. An open source software with a | weird binary format to save the data will probably do more | harm in the long term | | [1] https://crates.io/crates/obsidian-export | kstrauser wrote: | Same for me. I wrote a little Python script to copy my | Obsidian files into a set of Hugo files, then publish them. | Proprietary or not, it's so easy to work with the files | that things like this are possible. It's _my_ data in my | favorite format, ready for use with all the existing text | manipulation goodies I already know. There 's not much to | improve on there. | | Plug: I wrote a couple of other scripts and put them on | GitHub[1]. If you use Drafts and its "Quick Journaling" | action group[2], then `process-notes` will look awfully | familiar. | | [1] https://github.com/kstrauser/glassknife [2] | https://actions.getdrafts.com/g/1Sd | edu wrote: | You could try Dendron [1], a VS Code extension similar to | Obsidian, and in some ways more powerful (schemas for data). | | 1. https://www.dendron.so/ | chrisweekly wrote: | Athens Research (an OSS "clone" - sort of - of Roam Research) | might check all your boxes. I love Obsidian. | kiba wrote: | I would be interested in the random sample of these notes. It | felt like the author gave a guided tour of the house without | somehow showing the rooms. | justusthane wrote: | Likewise. I've tried and failed to pick up Zettelkasten, mostly | because I can't really grok the idea of atomic notes and what | they're supposed to look like. I'd love to see someone else's. | input_sh wrote: | This one usually gets thrown around as a good example: | https://notes.andymatuschak.org/About_these_notes | | Here if you want more: | https://github.com/KasperZutterman/Second-Brain | kstrauser wrote: | I've read "Taking Smart Notes", and Zettelkasten seems like | an amazing solution for a problem I don't have. It seems to | be geared around writing longer works out of notes you | collect, and if I were doing that, I think I'd be all-in on | Zettelkasten. But I'm not. A wiki-like setup is far more | valuable to me. | | I have a daily note with "Work" and "Personal" sections. As I | go through the day, I add entries in those sections: | | - Worked on the [[Foo project]] with [[Joe]] | | - Called [[Mom]] and asked her about the [[Meatloaf recipe]] | | - Helped [[Jane]] with the [[Qux problem]] | | This morning it's very easy to see what I was doing | yesterday, and have the context for all the mischief I was up | to. Also, when I open "Foo project" and look at its | backlinks, I get a timeline of when I'd worked on it, and can | see what other things I was working on at the same time. | Being able to instantly recreate that context is incredibly | valuable, and it's very lightweight for me. I'm not going out | of my way to associate "Foo project" with "Joe", but still | end up with a graph view that has a lot of notes linking to | both of those notes. | tslmy wrote: | Good idea, kiba! I might do that for my next post. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-01-19 23:00 UTC)