[HN Gopher] Ask HN: Burned Out. What Now?
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Ask HN: Burned Out. What Now?
I've been feeling off in several ways for a long time now, months
if not more, and finally got around to seeing some healthcare
professionals. "Showing symptoms of severe occupational burnout" is
what I'm being told, and it rings true. I know there are probably
plenty of people on HN who have gone through the same. Reflecting
back on your experiences, what are the sensible things to do next?
Aside from continuing to listen to the aforementioned healthcare
professionals, that is. Some questions I'm wondering about,
specifically: - Should I tell my boss and/or team? Should I tell
them right away, or wait until I know what other steps I want to
take? What should I expect their reactions to be? - Should I take
time off? How much? Or should I try to work reduced hours? I'm
hesitant because I don't have many hobbies (if any) and in the
middle of the pandemic there isn't much to do anyway. I don't think
running out of things to do would be any better for my health than
continuing as-is. I've been there before and I don't handle boredom
well. - If I continue working, is there something in my working
environment I should try to change? Think of senior engineer in a
typical DevOps-y SaaS startup. - Is there anything specific to
working in tech and burning out that I should know about? I feel
like this isn't exactly rare.
Author : burnoutwhatnow
Score : 183 points
Date : 2022-01-19 21:02 UTC (1 hours ago)
| ascendantlogic wrote:
| You _should_ tell your boss but I don 't know what your boss is
| like, what your financial picture looks like, etc. Obviously if
| you think they're gonna fire you right away then maybe get your
| ducks in a row first. If you can afford time off then maybe see
| if your company is cool with you taking a sabbatical or see if
| you just need to put in your notice and then take a few months to
| decompress and work on your mental and physical health before re-
| entering the workforce with (hopefully) better perspective on
| what led you there and how to avoid it moving forward.
| citizenpaul wrote:
| Part of burnout is lack of balance. Don't get too crazy "into"
| anything right away. You should be looking to restore balance
| slowly until you feel normal. This might mean not doing much of
| anything for quite a while (months)
|
| If you were a senior engineer you have enough money to recover.
| If you don't then you are in a rough spot. If you spent it whoops
| sell some toys to get by. If you were not paid enough to have
| money for this time its important to also understand that you
| were used and abused and probably have PTSD not only burn out.
| larrymyers wrote:
| It sounds like you've taken the first step and sought
| professional help. The only thing I've ever found that helps
| burnout is two things: 1. Remove yourself from
| the environment is causing the burnout. 2. Find
| fulfilling activities that do not come from your employment in
| the IT industry.
|
| "I'm hesitant because I don't have many hobbies (if any) and in
| the middle of the pandemic there isn't much to do anyway"
|
| That's the burnout speaking. I suspect you might feel the same
| way even if the pandemic was completely over. Getting yourself on
| the path to recovery will help with this, and you'll be amazed at
| all the hobbies you can do (even in a pandemic) that sound
| interesting and worthwhile.
|
| Best of luck, I hope you're able to get into a situation that
| allow you to recover and find some satisfaction in your current
| career in the future.
| reureu wrote:
| I went through a similar situation about a year ago. Was burned
| out at work and my workplace had gotten increasingly toxic in our
| post-IPO world. I went on medical leave and short-term disability
| for 3-4 months, and used that time to work on feeling normal
| again, and on looking for a different job.
|
| If I were you, I would...
|
| 1) continue meeting with a doctor regularly to discuss treatment
| options. That could be short-term benzo use, antidepressants,
| lifestyle changes, as well as going on medical leave. Regular
| visits also help build up your rapport with your doctor and
| create a record that you've been seeking help for these issues.
| Those can be really helpful in the future. For reference, I was
| seeing my doctor weekly when going through my situation.
|
| 2) don't tell anybody at your work that you're experience burnout
| until you absolutely have to. And even then, limit it to those
| that need to know (which, likely, is HR and not your manager or
| coworkers). I've seen a lot of friends be passed over for
| promotions or interesting projects or even let go after
| disclosing mental health issues, even for things as prevalent as
| burnout. Figure out a plan with your doctor first, and then
| follow your doctor's suggestions on who to contact at work.
|
| 3) seriously consider time off, either through a week of PTO or
| through a more extended medical leave. Yes, it's a pandemic, and
| yes, you may not have any idea what you do. But, honestly, that's
| exactly why you need time off. You'll get bored and figure out
| what you like to do, and that'll open some probably-currently-
| blocked mental doors on things that might improve your life. For
| me, I went on a road trip through the southern US and visited
| national parks I had never been to before. All outdoors, nobody
| around, never went to restaurants, and brought an air purifier
| for my hotel room or airbnb. I've also started booking week-long
| stays at neat AirBnBs with no plans whatsoever... just read, hike
| around, journal. And even though it feels boring, it's incredibly
| reinvigorating. But when we're burned out, we forget the things
| that we love because we're so burdened by our jobs.
|
| 4) seriously consider a new job. Another cause of burnout is
| breakdown in the feedback loop of our work. So we put tons of
| effort into something, only to shift priorities and not finish a
| project... or only to have the project handed off to some other
| team for nebulous reasons... or only to have execs abruptly nix
| the project... etc. If that resonates, then maybe part of the
| issue is you're not getting what you need from your job, and it's
| time to look for something else.
|
| 5) double down on self-care. You probably have heard all of the
| things before: have a consistent sleep schedule, remove screens
| from your bedroom, go outside, exercise every day, cut down on
| sugar/alcohol/caffeine, have regular social contact (safely, but
| FaceTime, etc), reduce your social media usage, meditate,
| journal, etc. Cultivate hobbies -- what about learning a new
| language, or learning the guitar, or starting a garden, or
| learning 5 new gourmet meals to cook.
|
| These issues are really common in tech, and right now life is
| particularly hard. There's a lot of instability in the world,
| there's not a lot of things to do with free time, and so we work
| too hard with nothing to look forward to. It all sucks. But it's
| great that you've recognized you're not in a great place, as
| that's the most important first step :)
| TameAntelope wrote:
| I'll throw this out there: Don't let any potential diagnosis
| drive your behavior. Do what _feels_ right for you, because that
| 's more important than trying to conform to any specific "remedy"
| that's commonly paired with what you're told you "have".
|
| For example, if taking a break would create even more stress
| (financial stress, boredom stress, etc), don't do it.
|
| But more importantly, do what your doctor says, up to and
| including ignoring all advice here!
| octokatt wrote:
| For tech and burning out, it's important to know that the lack of
| a clear output or goal can increase the likelihood of burnout.
| Double that if you have little control over your environment due
| to technical decisions made where you had not useful input.
|
| If you're at severe burnout, which it's definitely sounding like,
| consider taking a leave of absence (LOA). Time can vary between a
| couple of weeks to a couple of months, YMMV. If you can afford
| the LOA, rediscovering things you love is going to help.
|
| Places to start thinking about investing some time are a)
| physical activity, like weightlifting or hiking; b) learning
| something new, ideally from a different stack than you've been
| working on; c) trying to spend more time on hobbies to see if you
| can find a sense of satisfaction in creating or completing a
| task, particularly if you can form social bonds at the same time.
| That said, if you're not good at handling boredom and don't think
| that having time to do _whatever you want_ is going to be
| helpful, ease into this step.
|
| If you do stay at your job, try to find different
| responsibilities. Have a good conversation with your boss (if you
| can) where you explain that you need to rotate to a new
| responsibility where you can have a greater sense of mastery and
| control. Being able to determine your own success and failure can
| help recover from the hopelessness that goes with burnout.
|
| No matter what, take the time to actively invest in self-care.
| Not "I'm sitting on the couch" self-care, exercising and eating
| better self-care. Staying up late learning something you've
| always wanted to self-care. Painfully changing your life so
| tomorrow is better self-care.
|
| Good luck, and PM if you want to get to talk. I'm just finishing
| an LOA for burnout myself, and it's been a trip.
| rdpfeffer wrote:
| I've been dealing with this some myself. It really sucks. I felt
| so guilty because in the grand scheme of things, I'm doing great,
| but at work, I couldn't bring myself to do the most trivial
| things I'd done countless times. Thankfully, I came across this
| article which has been helpful in setting me on the right track.
| https://apple.news/AIRTKZkBFQBmDhsIAImifTw
|
| TL;DR - Occupational Burnout is a result of the body's inability
| to respond to cortisol (stress hormone) in the work environment.
| Sleep, vacationing & working out are a prerequisite, but
| insufficient to correct. The article instead recommends that
| people should address major contributing factors that show up
| most commonly:
|
| 1. workload
|
| 2. autonomy
|
| 3. fairness
|
| 4. reward: comp + recognition
|
| 5. workplace community
|
| 6. purpose: values + meaning
|
| ^ In my case, I took a hard look at each one and have been making
| sure I focus on addressing those that seem to be most
| demotivating to me. Creating a physical work environment and
| reading about the behavioral science of habbit forming has also
| been great support.
|
| Best of luck in getting through it. You're not alone!
| AnotherGoodName wrote:
| Yes tell your boss and work something out.
|
| Your bosses reaction should be acknowledgement that your personal
| health takes priority over everything else because this is an
| obvious fact. Anything less is not acceptable. (Source: I am a
| boss).
|
| The options you will receive depend on the company. Time off or
| part time is a good idea.
|
| You don't need a plan to do 'something that's not work'. Don't
| worry about that part. Take the time off first and figure out the
| rest later. It might be a good time to visit friends/family as
| part of a holiday. Things are starting to open back up.
| haswell wrote:
| I'd add a bit of caution to this. Yes, tell your boss, but have
| some kind of plan in place first.
|
| If the boss is a good boss, they will work with you and try to
| help. If your boss is not, things could get a bit more
| complicated.
|
| In other words, be prepared for a boss that makes this your
| problem. If they do, that's a sign that you should probably be
| looking elsewhere anyway. That might also be a clue about where
| the burnout is coming from.
|
| But bottom line, think through what your next steps look like
| if
|
| a) Your boss is understanding, and wants to help (what do you
| want from them? how might they help? etc.)
|
| b) Your boss is dismissive, or doesn't have the ability to help
| (will you look for another job that is less stressful, or focus
| on saving enough for a sabbatical, or other?)
| terminatornet wrote:
| > Should I take time off? How much? Or should I try to work
| reduced hours? I'm hesitant because I don't have many hobbies (if
| any) and in the middle of the pandemic there isn't much to do
| anyway. I don't think running out of things to do would be any
| better for my health than continuing as-is. I've been there
| before and I don't handle boredom well.
|
| I had a similar mindset, I've been very cautious with regards to
| covid and haven't taken a real vacation since 2019. Since I
| banked a lot of PTO, I ended up taking every Friday off from
| September until January. I still have feeling of burnout, but it
| definitely helped to lessen it.
|
| It can feel like a half-meausure, but it may be one that doesn't
| feel as extreme for you or you boss/job which may be helpful.
| orasis wrote:
| The bad news is it's going to take a long time to heal. The good
| news is you can come back happier than you can imagine.
|
| In an ideal scenario you would quit working entirely to focus on
| your health, but I'm guessing this is not an option.
|
| You need to focus on the body first. The most important is sleep,
| but that is also difficult to address directly, so it's best to
| focus on diet and exercise. You'll likely have to design your
| entire day and week around these two things.
|
| Try the Whole 30 program first. It's a way of eating that
| eliminates inflammation causing foods. DONT TRY TO LOSE WEIGHT!
| Weight loss is important for overall health but you'll usually
| sleep worse during a weight loss phase. That said you'll probably
| lose weight naturally anyway.
|
| Give up the alcohol for 30 days and _consider_ weening off
| caffeine at some point since both of these will mess up your
| sleep.
|
| For exercise, you just have to find something enjoyable enough to
| do at least 3x per week. It really doesn't matter what it is as
| long as it makes you a bit sore. Consistency is key - don't
| overdo it by jumping into something like CrossFit.
|
| Lastly, WHY are you burning yourself out? Are you afraid of
| failing? Afraid of being broke? Afraid of being perceived as a
| loser? The WHY is a spiritual problem and may be addressed
| through meditation (slow), psychotherapy (slower), or
| psychedelics (fast but more risk). Until you resolve the WHY of
| your burnout you'll likely remain stuck in this cycle.
| tomxor wrote:
| > For exercise, you just have to find something enjoyable
| enough to do
|
| I can't emphasise this enough, staying interested in doing gym
| exercise for the sake of fitness alone is not sustainable for
| most people - and boring even if you can. Exercise is an
| opportunity to find something physical you enjoy spending your
| time doing, and this can be as much a mental relief as a
| physical one. This is similar to how most of us enjoy learning
| about a technology far more while we have something directly in
| front of us to apply it to, getting fit and staying fit is
| really fun when you can apply it.
|
| Remember this does not only mean team sports, there is more to
| the world than what school PE exposed us to, there will
| definitely be something out there that interests you. It can
| also be great for your mental health in general, especially if
| it involves getting out into nature.
| akiselev wrote:
| _> Try the Whole 30 program first. It's a way of eating that
| eliminates inflammation causing foods. DONT TRY TO LOSE WEIGHT!
| Weight loss is important for overall health but you'll usually
| sleep worse during a weight loss phase. That said you'll
| probably lose weight naturally anyway_
|
| Can't stress this enough. I've spent the last decade trying to
| lose weight and failing, always yo-yoing up a little bit higher
| and losing confidence each time. Consistent diet changes are
| _really freaking hard_ especially when you 're battling other
| health issue. Aerobic exercise burns a hilariously tiny amount
| of calories for the effort and eventually it can eat away at
| motivation.
|
| Setting up a home gym to lift weights and trying to eat
| _healthier_ rather _less_ has done wonders for my health. ExRx
| has a lot of information [1] but the gist of it is that a pound
| of fat burns under 5 calories a day while a pound of lean
| muscle burns 30 calories a day without exercise and as much as
| 50 calories a day for up to several days after anaerobic
| exercise (weight lifting). The maximum grow rate is from half a
| pound to a pound (for those that won the genetic lottery) of
| lean muscle a week so in 10 weeks its possible to add 150-300
| calories to your basal metabolic rate that requires minimal
| maintenance compared to on-going dieting. Weight lifting doesn
| 't require that much effort [2] or maintenance, just proper
| form and equipment, so it's a lot easier to permanently
| incorporate in a schedule a few times a week than a life long
| dieting change.
|
| [1] https://exrx.net/FatLoss
|
| [2] https://exrx.net/WeightTraining/Research
| BadCookie wrote:
| I'd like to add to the list of things to try: Go to an eye
| doctor if you haven't been in a while, even if you've always
| had perfect vision in the past. We tech workers spend a lot of
| time staring at screens, and minor eye discomfort can compound
| into a major source of stress without you necessarily being
| aware of it.
| HideousKojima wrote:
| Can't comment one way or the other on Whole 30, but my wife and
| I have drastically reduced our sugar consumption and it's made
| us feel significantly better. Eliminating it entirely is a huge
| pain, but choosing the lower/no sugar options whenever they're
| available has helped us cut out probably ~90% of our sugar
| consumption, and even just that has had a noticeable effect on
| our health.
| tinyhouse wrote:
| Did you only eliminate sweets, chocolate, etc. or also bread,
| pasta, and all other things that break into glucose.
| HideousKojima wrote:
| We tried keto for a month or so but it was a pain to keep
| up with (and getting more expensive because of meat price
| inflation).
| crawdog wrote:
| I have been on a similar trend lately. Trying to first
| focus on low gluten/no gluten and nothing with processed
| sugar in it. Often hard to eliminate it all but even a
| dramatic cut back in processed foods has made a difference
| on my sleep.
| dustymcp wrote:
| Cutting out processed foods and making your own food
| everyday makes a huge difference!
| taylorhou wrote:
| body treats everything carbs (except for dietary fiber and
| sugar alcohols) as glucose eventually. getting under 50g
| net carbs a day is fairly easy. staying under 20g net is
| harder but not impossible these days.
| trentgreene wrote:
| Yeah... but that "eventually" is metabolically relevant.
| Anecdata, but 250g / day of complex carb felt very
| different to 125g simple carb + 125g complex carb / day.
| As an athlete, and at one point a keto based athlete, I'm
| confident that carbs per se were not the enemy.
| umvi wrote:
| Just eliminating sources of corn syrup and added sugar is a
| great first step, IMO. We cut out soda, sweets, and other
| added-sugar crap (but kept bread, milk, pasta, fruit,
| honey, etc) and that alone was a big improvement.
| thebean11 wrote:
| Eliminating sweets is likely more important. Complex carbs
| in pasta / bread or even simple sugars in fruits are
| absorbed more slowly which supposedly is much better for
| you. I think the jury is still out on how good or bad carbs
| are for you. My instinct tells me they are probably
| completely fine if they don't make you feel bad personally.
| whitesilhouette wrote:
| This is a very good list. I'll add my to 2 cents to this.
|
| 1. Don't do any addiction. Alcohol, Psychedelics nothing.
| That's another spiral you won't be able to climb out from.
|
| 2. Taking some time off is the easiest way to figure out your l
| life. You will soon be able to realise your priorities in life.
| I'd say 2 months is good enough a time. But the most important
| thing is to not attempt doing _any_ work stuff during the time
| out period.
| aqme28 wrote:
| "Don'd do any addiction" is unfortunately a lot easier said
| than done.
| RangerScience wrote:
| Addiction is more of a behavior than a substance (although
| they are definitely related). Exercise, sex, gambling,
| work... all can become something you're problematically
| dependent on. Your therapist should know much more.
| CobrastanJorji wrote:
| Also, if you do end up quitting your job or otherwise finding
| yourself with a lot of free time, be aware that certain video
| games or media can count as addictions. While video games and
| such can absolutely be good for you and your recovery, it's
| surprisingly easy to find yourself suddenly logging 8+ hours
| per day in World of Warcraft or something, and that's not
| good for you for a number of reasons.
| cassianoleal wrote:
| Psychedelics are generally not addictive [0], and if used
| correctly can help very much with burn out. [1][2]
|
| > They are generally considered physiologically safe and do
| not lead to dependence or addiction. [0]
|
| [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4813425/
|
| [1] https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/how-to-cure-burnout
|
| [2] https://www.friedtheburnoutpodcast.com/post/dr-randi-
| raymond
|
| Edit: add references [1] and [2]
| giantg2 wrote:
| It depends. Sure, they are generally not forming chemical
| dependence. Psychological addiction can still be an issue
| for people in this situation.
| cassianoleal wrote:
| Did you even read the phrase I quoted? It specifically
| says "do not lead to _dependence_ or _addiction_".
| giantg2 wrote:
| Yes I read it. Do you understand the difference between
| chemical and psychological addiction?
|
| "People abusing mushrooms can become dependent by
| believing that they need the drug to maintain a sense of
| enlightenment or happiness."
|
| https://www.addictioncenter.com/drugs/hallucinogens/psilo
| cyb...
|
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29098666/
| cassianoleal wrote:
| I do and I never claimed either _never_ happens. That's
| what the "generally" [0] bit in the text means.
|
| [0] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/generally
| giantg2 wrote:
| "They are generally considered physiologically safe and
| do not lead to dependence or addiction."
|
| The way this is written means:
|
| They are generally considered physiologically safe.
|
| They do not lead to dependence or addiction.
|
| Also, you did not quote 'generally' in your response (the
| one with underscores).
| cassianoleal wrote:
| Direct quote from my original response: "Psychedelics are
| generally not addictive".
|
| > They do not lead to dependence or addiction.
|
| Thanks for making my point.
|
| Edit: Also thanks for the downvote. Being that you then
| proceeded to _not_ counter me with any real arguments, it
| also helps to make my point.
| nvarsj wrote:
| Self medicating is one of the best ways to become addicted.
| I think drugs can be useful, but it's also an easy way to
| escape from your issues, or can make them worse. It depends
| a lot on the individual and their state of mind.
| ohlookcake wrote:
| I know why I'm burning out, but I don't know what to do with
| the realisation. The fear of being fired, then broke, and then
| not being able to survive is real-ish. Advice?
| haswell wrote:
| Do you feel like the realization/fear come from a rational
| place, or primarily driven by anxiety?
|
| Everyone's journey is different, but depending on where that
| fear is coming from, I could imagine drastically different
| next steps.
|
| Personally, therapy has helped me immensely. A lot of my
| early anxiety about these things stemmed from severe imposter
| syndrome, and through the years I've gained enough confidence
| in myself to know that my skills are in demand, and survival
| is likely in the current market.
|
| But if that fear is due to other things - the health of your
| employer's business, etc. then a very different course of
| action might be required.
| orasis wrote:
| Our minds are conditioned to operate from a place of fear.
| The fear feeling is real. The fears may even be founded.
|
| The difference is whether you're existing in the grip of that
| fear or thriving from a place of love.
|
| You could try reading something like "The Mastery of Love" by
| Don Miguel Ruiz to get a taste, but the healing has to come
| through the body and nervous system. You can't will your way
| through this.
|
| Edit: Important note: The right antidepressant can help!
| Wronnay wrote:
| I found out that I was too focused on material things but health
| is way more important.
|
| If you don't have good health, everything else is useless - a big
| house is no benefit when you lie down in bed all day.
|
| So your health should be above everything else - try to build a
| healthy lifestyle, then you can do the next steps.
| tomcam wrote:
| Not a shrink but these clues all seem to point to depression.
| Very much worth looking into clinically AND with an open mind.
|
| As far as should you tell your boss and/or team: my highly
| sophisticated algorithm for this is, if you were the boss, would
| you want to be notified? It's not smart to tell the team: it
| would percolate to the boss in a distorted form anyway, but also
| it's up to your boss to deal with the issue properly.
|
| I have a todo list of about 6 million things to do before I die
| so I can't empathize very well with the boredom thing. My
| instinct though is that it's very good for you to be challenging
| yourself somehow. If not with a hobby, then maybe something like
| sports/self defense/meditation would do the trick.
|
| I think you're going through something bigger than it may seem at
| the moment. Good luck on your journey.
| rezonant wrote:
| Rest and vest
| 999900000999 wrote:
| How much money do you have saved up ?
|
| Do you have a family ?
|
| Let's assume your answers are a lot and no.
|
| Just stop. I quit a horrible job in my youth without knowing if
| I'd make rent next month.
|
| It was worth it,but only because I didn't have any dependents.
| With a family this is insanely reckless.
| echelon wrote:
| > With a family this is insanely reckless.
|
| This is why fewer of us are having families. There's something
| in the back of our minds telling us that we're not safe.
| comprev wrote:
| I took 6 months off work and was thankful every morning I had
| been wise enough to have healthy savings for "a rainy day". In
| those 6 months I introduced some life changing habits and
| reassessed life's priorities. Ironically, the burnout was
| probably the best thing which ever happened to me, both mentally
| and physically.
| dominotw wrote:
| what did you do for those 6 months if i may ask?
| steve76 wrote:
| annoyingnoob wrote:
| If you are working crazy hours then you need to cut back. If you
| cannot cut back hours beyond a normal work week, then you need to
| find a new job.
|
| Find something to do in your spare time that interests you,
| something unrelated to your work.
|
| Get out of the house, change your scenery. I find that leaving
| town, even just for a day, helps a lot. Go camping over night,
| get off the grid and disconnect. Getting fresh air and a little
| exercise goes a long way.
|
| Don't discount the value of being bored, you might need to get
| bored before you figure out what to do with yourself.
| joshka wrote:
| US Based? FMLA for 3-6 months. Go stare at something other than a
| screen for a while.
|
| Assuming you have some sort of health, start walking (or some
| other exercise).
|
| The pandemic and related things put a magnifying glass up against
| all the bits that tend to break over time. Everyone is suffering,
| you're probably lucky-ish that you can easily do something about
| it (I'm stereotyping here from being in a tech job rather than
| say hospitality or service industry).
| marginalia_nu wrote:
| I was in that situation a few years. I took a year off to just
| fuck around and figure out what I wanted. Was a messy time in my
| life, but in the end it made me a better person. I do realize
| this isn't an option for everyone.
|
| For me I think a big part of my problem was my lack of other
| hobbies that weren't IT-related.
|
| Now I work part-time and try to spend time working on non-IT
| stuff as well, I've gotten into a bunch of different things in
| the years since then: Philosophy, strength training, latin,
| calligraphy, partner dancing. You don't have to do these things,
| but what they have in common is that they aren't keyboard-y
| things.
| xupybd wrote:
| Quit get a low stress low thinking job if you can afford to.
| Preferably something physical. Keep up the therapy, listen to
| them more than us. Slowly you'll start to long to get back I to
| tech, you'll be able to think again. Then go back and enjoy it
| again.
| weatherlite wrote:
| > Should I tell my boss and/or team?
|
| It really depends. If your boss is generally a good person he'll
| be glad to know and try to help you. If he's a shitty person he
| might use it against you or think less of you. You should know or
| at least be able to guess which way he should be leaning. Not
| sure I'd tell the team though, this should be between you and
| your boss for now, it shouldn't become the company's gossip.
|
| > I'm hesitant because I don't have many hobbies (if any) and in
| the middle of the pandemic there isn't much to do anyway.
|
| To me that is telling something. It's quite possible you also
| have a mild depression going on (and could be that the burnout is
| exacerbated by it). What I mean is it might be that things aren't
| as you'd like them to be in other areas of life, which can
| eventually hurt your job performance since your mental well being
| isn't great. Keep getting the support you need, be willing to
| make some changes. Rooting for you.
| tibbar wrote:
| I experienced this last year as well. It was very difficult and
| unpleasant. What ultimately worked for me was taking significant
| time off, changing jobs, and moving to a new city. I also started
| reading some books like Atomic Habits which gave me some insights
| into how to short-circuit some destructive feedback loops I was
| participating in. I'm not entirely back to normal but I'm having
| fun at my job again and have much better rhythms now.
| [deleted]
| gogopuppygogo wrote:
| This will be a USA centric response because while other countries
| have very different options I assume that like me you are in the
| states.
|
| I'd start by seeing a therapist.
|
| It's nice to have someone to speak with about your issues that
| can help provide guidance.
|
| I spent better part of a decade working every day I was awake.
| Started seeing a therapist after working with some truly horrible
| people who now face serious repercussions for their actions.
|
| Recently, I splurged on some retro game stuff. I spent years
| ignoring retro gaming. I thought these were relics for immature
| man children who lived in their parents basement. My wife also
| hates the look so I had spent years not only turning a blind eye
| toward them but also putting what I did own since childhood into
| storage for when we started a family. Once I went down the rabbit
| hole of some retro games I don't think I'll be looking back. I
| found that not only are they fun to play but I have a passion for
| restoring them. I started by re-learning how to repair integrated
| circuits (I hadn't used a soldering iron in 20 years before
| this). Now I plan to save as many as I can.
|
| All I'm saying, start by talking to someone who will listen and
| you can feel comfortable talking with. A therapist was good for
| me because you pay them to be your confidant. Mental health is
| like any other part of your body you care for.
|
| I would however absolutely not let any co-workers or
| representatives of your employer know what you are going through.
| There is a terrible stigma around mental health and it will be
| perceived as a disability/weakness by some in a manner that could
| impact your livelihood.
| hisham123 wrote:
| givemeethekeys wrote:
| It sounds like you need to hold onto your job for the time being.
| I would: Set boundaries (9 to 5, 8 to 3.. whatever you need them
| to be). When you're working, concentrate on work. When you're not
| working, don't accept calls / texts / work stuff. Go do something
| physical .. like walk for an hour or two, especially right after
| work. Put your health and yourself above your company.
| nostrademons wrote:
| Do tell your boss & team, but after you've thought a little bit
| about what you want your next steps to be. Their reactions can
| vary a lot - bad bosses might instantly fire you and look for
| someone else who's more productive, good bosses will work with
| you to improve your well-being while you remain on the payroll.
| You should be prepared for the former reaction even as you hope
| for the latter.
|
| The answer to the next question will depend upon how the
| conversation with your boss goes. You might want to completely
| disconnect and quit. You might want to work 1-2 days/week,
| supporting your team for questions but moving off of deadline-
| critical parts. You might want to shift into a different role
| entirely; oftentimes doing something different can cure burnout.
| Some or all of these options might be available to you depending
| on what your boss says, or he may suggest something entirely
| different.
|
| For the last two questions - I've heard that burnout is basically
| the result of loving something or someone for a prolonged period
| of time without them loving you back. Code will never love you
| back, which is one reason why tech and other knowledge workers
| are particularly at risk for burnout. But it happens with
| politicians, managers, and romantic relationships as well. It
| sounds like coding is a major part of your life; as hard as it
| may be, you may want to cultivate other things you love (perhaps
| including hobbies, or people) and view your work with more
| professional detachment. Yes, this probably means you'll be less
| effective at it, but it's also more sustainable.
| fvavsc wrote:
| Mental health issues are routinely recognized as serious health
| issues. I work for a major US company and employees are
| encouraged to take short-term or long-term disability leave, yes
| even for mental health issues. You are already paying for it.
| Check your benefits and talk to professionals to make sure it is
| properly handled.
|
| After confirming your benefits and speaking with healthcare
| professional, talk to HR before your manager. Your manager may
| not know all the benefits available or try to hide them from you.
|
| Take as long as you need to recover. You may not have hobbies but
| sometimes vegging out in front TV for a few days is all you need
| to recover.
|
| Also forget about all the healthy stuff like exercise,
| meditation, etc. Just sleep as long as you can. Burning out means
| your body is under maximum stress. You don't want to add to your
| plate. Remove things from it.
|
| Relaxing experiences maybe okay like massages, bathes, a slow
| walk.
|
| Finally, ancedata, I know someone who was getting burned out.
| They didn't show up for work for a week. When they got back,
| their boss was furious but they said they were burned out. HR got
| involved. Boss got in trouble for creating unhealthy work
| environment. Person was told to take more time off and see a
| therapist. This was at a major US company.
| christkv wrote:
| Take at least 3-4 weeks off.
|
| If you can exercise or do other physical activities like going
| for a walk. Disconnect completely after work, get a feature
| phone. A lot of people having burnouts due to being over
| connected and even more so with remote work.
|
| Walk really slow and try to be in the actual moment.
|
| Do things you've been putting off for ever due to feeling burned
| out. That book that's been sitting on the shelf for a year, that
| lego set or doodling book or the guitar you swore you were going
| to learn.
|
| See people for a coffee, drink or other activity.
|
| Avoiding burnout is often about learning the painful lessons of
| separating your professional life from your actual life and it's
| not an easy task.
|
| We tend to forget to stop and smell the roses.
| hogrider wrote:
| Just my .02, but I would take a break from the industry, possibly
| from any kind of desk job. If you have savings at all you should
| do ok with a little income restocking shelves or whatever.
| Lammy wrote:
| I don't feel comfortable saying what "you" should do since these
| situations are so personal/unique, but here's some of what helped
| me:
|
| Was there any specific event at work which you think may have
| contributed to feeling burned out? Or more of a long slow grind
| of unfulfilling work? AFAICT good therapy is supposed to lead one
| to self-realization of these triggers, but for me it always felt
| like it was doing the opposite. Luck of the draw I guess, but I
| tried three different times with different therapists over
| several years and it always just made me feel worse and less
| understood than when I walked in.
|
| The biggest thing that made me feel better was developing goals
| and an identity outside of the economic system to avoid the
| effects of work negativity. For me there was a huge project I
| delivered on at work that flew totally under the radar and was
| not rewarded. Of course there was more I could have done to
| promote myself blah blah blah, but getting the worst performance
| review in years for the work I was proudest of in years was a
| huge trigger for me.
|
| IMO (don't feel obligated to agree!) anything money touches will
| feel at least a little inhuman, and it can only get worse once it
| takes root (like the current direction of "open source" where
| lots of people treat it like a way to pivot into a corporate job
| (I did this too lol)). I can't tell anyone what their beliefs and
| goals should be, and I'm not going to share mine since they are
| personal and not really relevant, but give them space and time
| and they will come. It doesn't even need to include technology.
| That's what I'm good at, so that's the expression I tend to I
| gravitate toward, but the important part for me was to decouple
| my self-worth from my income. I can handle soul-crushing
| corporate work a lot better now that I've stopped taking it so
| seriously. My self-worth comes from ideas that cost zero dollars,
| and selling my labor is a resource to accomplish things that
| truly make me happy.
|
| To figure all that out, I took a year off of work at a pretty
| significant hit to my finances and just went places. It was
| necessary for me to get out of any familiar environments,
| including home, just to sever those negative mental links and get
| some untainted thoughts going. I had never taken more than a
| couple of weeks off at a time since becoming a working adult, so
| there was never a time where I was simultaneously old enough to
| have some experience with the world, old enough to have some
| money, but not be thinking about what I "needed to do" when I got
| back.
|
| Have a car. Ignore all the "DAE cars bad???" people -- the most
| interesting places are places transit will never go. My Prius
| does back roads and gets 60MPG doing it, so it doesn't even have
| to break the bank. Pick a direction and drive in it for as far as
| you can stand in a single day. Get a motel room and spend a
| couple days just "living" in the area. It doesn't have to be
| touristy stuff. I get the most enjoyment out of things like just
| driving around, sitting in a park or on a beach, or taking a
| walk, since the point is to have a clean mental canvas.
| Unstructured activities are better for this than activities where
| I have to be in a certain place at a certain time and pay
| attention to a thing.
|
| Be offline while traveling, and I mean zero contact. Airplane
| mode, and stash the phone somewhere. All attention parasites must
| go. I set up Musicolet on my old Note 4 with an SD card full of
| MP3s so I don't need connectivity for music. OSMAnd provides
| offline maps, and Torque logs my trip via OBD2. I carry a
| mirrorless camera (Micro Four Thirds) for photos, and it's way
| better than anything my phone takes anyway.
|
| Regaining a happy relationship with computers/technology was
| possible too once I had some time away from them. Things that
| help me include having a language/ecosystem for personal stuff
| that I absolutely refuse to ever touch professionally (Ruby for
| me) and having projects that are intentionally "Free Software,
| but not open source". Patches are not welcome. My code isn't just
| "mine" -- my code is _me_!
| honkycat wrote:
| My recommendations:
|
| Mental Health
|
| _____
|
| Get on an anti-anxiety medication if you can / want to. They can
| be really helpful to take the edge off for a while until you
| return to normal.
|
| My therapist is the one I info-dump and bitch about work to. I
| don't have any particularly deep psychological trauma. I just
| want to pay someone to complain about work to, so they can give
| me feedback and things to try. It isn't fair to your friends and
| family to constantly be absorbing your pain.
|
| I learned this the hard way after losing friends because I was
| "too negative and whiny."
|
| Hobbies
|
| _____
|
| I read a book called "atomic habits" and I liked it a lot.
|
| Basically, when I have a hobby, I track TIME, not "goals." Goals
| are too nebulous. Time is something I can keep track of easily
| and more time === more good at hobby. ( Kind-of. It is at least a
| decent metric to track. )
|
| I picked up guitar, beer making, smoking meat, running, game
| development, all during the pandemic. I hear you! I just jumped
| around until I found something that stuck. Don't give up on
| finding a hobby! But don't stick with you you aren't enjoying.
|
| Work
|
| ____
|
| I wouldn't tell your work you are "burned out." People... can
| suck. And do you really need a bunch of opinions and attention
| around how stressed out and tired of the job you are? No, not
| really.
|
| Maybe reach out to individuals privately if you want some support
| but also: see section 1: Your friends/coworkers are not your
| therapist.
|
| As for specific reasons... for me it is other people. The work is
| fine, but dealing with personalities, and boredom, and stress...
| it gets exhausting.
|
| Try to identify the people who are causing you the most stress
| and try to interact with them as little as possible. Keep a
| journal. If they are being outright abusive, write it down in the
| journal, and eventually you will have something you can present
| to justify your request to be distanced from them.
| boutcher wrote:
| This is a good blog on the subject by a friend of mine:
| https://ravik.substack.com/p/focus-flow-and-burnout
| mythrwy wrote:
| You need a reason beyond money to do what you are doing. Without
| that you burn out quick and it takes a long time to recover. Find
| the reason and if there isn't one do something else.
| fruzz wrote:
| There's no right answer for those questions.
|
| I've burned out twice. Both times I quit. Took a year off between
| the two. I travelled both times, and then just had my own routine
| at home. I had no problem finding another job when it was time to
| come back.
|
| - You can tell your boss. Expect sympathy, but, any plan that
| works for you is probably one you'll have come up with.
|
| - If you leave, I'd recommend not dictating when it'll end up
| front. Say three months if people ask, but what you really mean
| is in three months you'll reassess if you need more time off. No
| actual deadlines.
|
| - I don't know about you, but for me as a senior eng at a
| startup, work eats into all hours of day / weekend. Do an 8-4.
| Not one minute more. No weekend. No slack on your phone. No on
| call. No evenings.
|
| Be kind to yourself friend. <3 Come up with a routine. I found my
| days filled up without work as they did with, but taking showers,
| cooking meals for myself, etc. was important.
| amacbride wrote:
| I was in the same boat at my first startup (a series of 70-100
| hour weeks and I was completely fried by year 2.)
|
| I had accumulated (and untouched) vacation time, so I wrapped up
| anything critical, drove to SFO, got on a plane to Mexico, and
| stayed for two weeks. I did not bring my laptop. I did nothing
| but swim, go to the beach, read (physical) novels and have nice
| meals at restaurants.
|
| Exercise and sunshine pulled me out of a truly devastating
| spiral; it may not work in the same way for you, but could it
| hurt?
|
| Good luck: I really feel for you.
| dominotw wrote:
| > a series of 70-100 hour weeks
|
| wouldn't you have to go back to that and end up in the same
| situation again?
| mottosso wrote:
| > Think of senior engineer in a typical DevOps-y SaaS startup.
|
| This stands out to me. If I thought of my work as "typical", I'd
| ask myself whether what I'm doing is worth my time. Whether it's
| fulfilling and has purpose. Whether I'm having an impact on the
| work and whether the work has an impact on whatever problem is
| being solved. That on its own is enough to cause me feeling burnt
| out, especially over a multi-month period of time.
| commanderjroc wrote:
| - Should I tell my boss and/or team?
|
| This depends on how your relationship with your boss is and how
| they are. I once encountered the start of burn out and told my
| boss, and he said to go do something fun. So I played video games
| while he covered for me and let me know if I was needed for a
| meeting. It was great and I skirted burn out.
|
| - Should I take time off? How much? Or should I try to work
| reduced hours?
|
| I have taken up backpacking and have loved taking a day off or
| two to go out into the woods. I really love just disconnecting
| from the world.
|
| - If I continue working, is there something in my working
| environment I should try to change?
|
| Maybe try different text editors? I don't know if doing that
| would bring more stress as you have to learn new stuff. But,
| maybe you want to learn it, its up to you.
|
| - Is there anything specific to working in tech and burning out
| that I should know about?
|
| Burnout as I have been told and experienced is normal, but its
| usually a sign that something is off like a lot more work has
| been thrown at you or your team, or you feel like your
| contributions are not getting the attention you want. Or, you
| just want to not work because your brain is tired of always
| working.
|
| As for boredom and not liking it, I have found that it pays to do
| nothing some times and just daydream at home, doing absolutely
| nothing. It helps my brain rest and clear out all its stressors.
|
| Also keep in mind this advice is what works for me, but it may
| work for you. Take it with a grain of salt.
| taylorhou wrote:
| a similar situation happened at my company where management was
| informed of severe burnout. we didn't have a policy/SOP on it but
| created one where we gave our valued employee 2 weeks forced PTO
| and actually suspended their gsuite so they couldn't access work.
|
| so far so good. employee came back after being able to finally
| catch up on life, we hit reset as a team and we're off and away.
|
| this doesn't help prevent future burnout specifically but it was
| an initial step that showcased that we cared more about our
| employees' health than the company.
| Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
| Whenever I feel down, I remember one powerful book I've read:
| "White on Black" [1]. It is in Russian and was written by a
| person born with a cerebral palsy, who had survived in soviet
| orphanage. The very vivid depiction of a life of a person with
| severe disability just forces you to better appreciate things you
| are taking for granted: like a capability to walk on your own and
| have working hands. This is what matters, and all other problems
| are transitory and should be treated as such.
|
| Unfortunately, I don't know if a translation to English exists.
|
| [1]:
| https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B5...
| adamhp wrote:
| In a similar vein, Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl.
| It's about an Austrian psychologist who experiences the
| holocaust firsthand. It's partly a description of the events
| that unfold, but also his thesis on his work called
| "logotherapy". A book about a person surviving the holocaust
| might strike you as really grim, but he brings a lot of
| humanity to the situation and it really makes you appreciate
| the life you have.
| maxbaines wrote:
| Wish you all the best, hope and sure others with knowledge and
| advice can help you. Your for sure not alone.
| hotgeart wrote:
| > Should I tell my boss and/or team? Should I tell them right
| away, or wait until I know what other steps I want to take? What
| should I expect their reactions to be?
|
| No there're not your family. You need to talk with a professional
| and take decision together.
|
| > Should I take time off? How much? Or should I try to work
| reduced hours?
|
| It's impossible to say. Everyone is different. Some need to work
| part time, others a month off and others 2y. When I did my burn
| out at first it's 4 months, after 6 and at the end it's a year.
| Again decision with a professional. Evaluation every month at
| first.
|
| Depend also your country/insurance. For me it's easy because I
| live in EU, so my salary was paid at 80% while i was taking care
| of myself for a 1y.
|
| > If I continue working, is there something in my working
| environment I should try to change? Think of senior engineer in a
| typical DevOps-y SaaS startup.
|
| Again need a professional and long conversations. May be it's the
| environement or the job itself.
|
| > Is there anything specific to working in tech and burning out
| that I should know about? I feel like this isn't exactly rare.
|
| Because it's always the same. Managers think when we add or
| remove features, it's just lego. You re-assign 1 ticket 3 others
| come.
| fin3sse wrote:
| Did I just read that you got 80% of your salary while doing
| absolutely nothing for a year? Congrats, but we aren't all so
| incredibly lucky.
| genmud wrote:
| Not OP, but some insurance polices for long term disability
| could cover major depression or other mental illness. Will
| depend on the policy, company, etc. and would probably not be
| a bad idea to consult a lawyer/doctor.
| dudus wrote:
| As someone that has gone through something similar and recently
| got out of it.
|
| Seems like you haven't started to make any plans on what to
| change. I'd wait to talk to your manager/company until you have a
| better idea of what you need. But then do, maybe they offer some
| extended time off, maybe they have other mental health resources
| available. If they do try to make use of them.
|
| Take your time. Don't think you'll be back to where you were any
| time soon if ever. Maybe your work life will be different from
| here on out. Maybe you'll have to live with it. Prioritizing
| companies with good work/life balance is a must.
|
| If you have the means definitively take some time off. The more
| the better. Or take a part-time job if you still need some
| income.
|
| No hobbies no problem. Play video games, watch movies, netflix
| and do exercises every day. It's important to keep your mind and
| body moving with something that is stress free.
|
| If you don't want to do anything, just sit or lay in bed all day.
| Look for a psychologist. This is not normal, you need treatment
| and it's available, is easy and it works. It just takes some time
| to find the right med. Don't let yourself be depressed.
|
| When you are interested again try to create a hobby project, even
| if it doesn't generate any income, learn a new framework or
| language, or whatever technical that sparks interest in you. As
| you build interest again in work stuff you'll miss work.
| azdle wrote:
| I quit my job October because I was too burnt out to keep going
| (and because I got a 3% raise in a year of 7% inflation right
| after I released a product that would save the company millions a
| _month_ , but I digress).
|
| My best advice is, if you can afford it, quit your job and don't
| do anything until it sounds good. Like literally sit and stare at
| a wall until something sounds fun. My recovery was definitely
| delayed because I thought doing hobbies was how I was going to
| recover, so I forced myself to try to do things because I though
| I'd want to have accomplished them after my sabbatical was done.
|
| If you want to call it mediation, call it that. If you want to
| call it sitting in the shower with a beer call it that. If you
| want to call it renting a cabin on a mountain to with no
| internet, call it that. The important thing is you're giving your
| mind time to (if you will) run a defrag on itself.
|
| I'm still not 100% over being burnt out, so I can't give any
| guarantee, but giving myself that time has definitely helped
| immensely.
|
| > Should I tell my boss and/or team? Should I tell them right
| away, or wait until I know what other steps I want to take? What
| should I expect their reactions to be?
|
| Hard to say. How's your relationship with your boss/team? If
| quitting is the most likely outcome, you have nothing to lose,
| and maybe they can help. If your work reletionships are more
| adversarial, maybe not.
|
| > Should I take time off? How much? Or should I try to work
| reduced hours? I'm hesitant because I don't have many hobbies (if
| any) and in the middle of the pandemic there isn't much to do
| anyway. I don't think running out of things to do would be any
| better for my health than continuing as-is. I've been there
| before and I don't handle boredom well.
|
| In my opinion, yes.
|
| I don't know you or your personality, but for me not handling
| boredom well was a symptom of being burnt out. Or as I said it, I
| was "bad at" relaxing. I still am, but I'm getting better about
| it. And the thing that is helping the most with that is telling
| myself that I'm allowed to be bored and then scheduling some time
| to be bored. That might sound stupid, but I really think that is
| the thing that has helped my mental health recently more than
| anything else.
|
| > If I continue working, is there something in my working
| environment I should try to change? Think of senior engineer in a
| typical DevOps-y SaaS startup.
|
| Can you work less? I've actually started a new gig (2 months
| after my last day as the last one), but I'm working part time
| (though salaried w/ benefits) and it's great having more time in
| the mornings and afternoons. I don't think I could swing a full
| time gig at the moment, but working half-time has silenced the
| part of my brain that kept telling me I should be making money
| and being a contributing member of society.
| aurelius wrote:
| I'd like to give you some advice based on my own experience, and
| without making too many assumptions about you and what you
| haven't told us about your situation.
|
| I absolutely believe there is a way for you to get through this.
| Don't be discouraged!
|
| The first thing you must do is to kill the negative thought
| train. Don't panic, don't assume your career is over, that you
| have no hope, that it's going to get worse, that people are going
| to find out, that you'll get fired, etc.. Whatever you're fearful
| about as a result of realizing you're burnt out, try to set it
| aside for now because you don't need any more stress or worry. It
| sounds like you have time to think about what to do, so take that
| time, and don't put yourself under any pressure. Accept the state
| you're in. It's ok. This happens to many, many people, and you're
| not the only one. Moreover, your world doesn't sound like it's
| about to end. Relax about it, as much as you can.
|
| I would echo what some others have said here about telling your
| boss/team: don't. What I think you need to do is look at what
| your day-to-day job is like, and see if there's anything you want
| to change. Is there anything that's really dragging you down? Do
| certain tasks or projects drive you crazy or make you feel
| depressed? Are you unhappy with your role in general? Do you hate
| your office and need to move? Is WFH making you unhappy, and you
| need to be back in a real office? Try to ponder it all, see if
| there's something you could change that would give you some
| quality of life improvement. When you think you have something,
| take that to your boss, and see what they can do about it. Don't
| engage in self-enfeeblement when you have that talk. You're
| entitled to set boundaries for yourself and ask for a change
| without having to divulge anything about your personal state of
| mind. Just say plainly that you're not feeling happy in your
| current role, and you'd like to give something else a try (i.e.,
| whatever alternative you're going to present). Ask if that's
| possible now or at some point soon. If not, ask if there's
| something else available right now that they could offer you
| because you feel like you really need a change. Consider the
| options, but only choose one if it appeals to you, not just
| because you think need to choose one.
|
| If it's a hard no from the boss or if there are no good options,
| then ok, no problem. Consider your next options. A job is a job.
| If things aren't so bad where you're at, then maybe it's worth
| staying. Ask yourself if perhaps you are too emotionally invested
| in having a "great career". If so, work on detaching emotionally.
| Show up each day when you have to, and leave when you can. It's
| ok to do a good job, and do it for the pay check. You don't have
| to accomplish anything great. You don't have to break your back
| for your employer. If you stay where you're at, look at ways that
| you can change little things to give yourself some feeling of
| agency and autonomy. For me, I had schedule flexibility, so I
| engaged in a daily act of rebellion where I would sleep in, show
| up in time for the daily stand-up, then do what I could until I
| felt like I was done for the day, and then I went home. If you
| don't want to stay where you're at, then take time to think about
| what you want to do next.
|
| I can recommend seeking professional help. A good therapist is a
| very valuable disinterested third-party who can help you think
| everything through. Unless your situation is in dire straits, the
| best way forward is to make small but well-considered steps that
| will help create emotional and psychological space for yourself
| to heal. Oftentimes, what we think is the one problem causing us
| to burn out isn't actually the only problem contributing to the
| situation. A therapist can give you perspective on that. Perhaps
| anti-depressants might be a help for you, but a therapist can
| help you figure that out too. Don't sign up for the drugs
| straight away unless it is clearly needed.
|
| I can also recommend walking, every day if you can, for as long
| as you're able or it remains enjoyable for you. Wooded areas and
| around lakes are great to walk around, but anywhere will do. It
| will help you relax and mull things over. It really will. Listen
| to music if you like, but also try it without. Stop and sit along
| the way. Take in the sky, the birds, the trees, the landscape.
| Just enjoy being there, and the beauty of nature. Think about
| whatever's on your mind, but don't force yourself to think of a
| solution. Let your mind wander. Space out. Relax.
|
| Over time, you will be able to figure out what you need to
| change. It took me a couple of years, to be honest, but that's
| fine. It's not a race. The building (i.e., my life) wasn't
| burning, so I just focussed on taking my time because I didn't
| want to change too much too soon and end up back in the same hole
| down at some point down the road. I took care to sleep well (but
| not too much), walk regularly, and try do things I enjoyed (or
| used to enjoy). No pressure. If I didn't feel like doing anything
| intellectual on a particular day, I didn't. I got a lot of
| mileage out of housework, cooking, and walking on those days.
|
| I believe you can figure this out. Hang in there, my friend!
| H8crilA wrote:
| Can you get a medical leave? I was/am in your shoes, and I
| managed to get a leave from a doctor (general doctor, then
| psychiatrist). After almost 2 months off I feel so much better.
| Of course this is likely to tip off your boss (I just didn't care
| any more, so wasn't an issue for me). After 4-6 weeks of just
| walks in nature and sleep fixing (medication included) I am now
| being highly encouraged by my therapist to get regular exercise,
| and also to find out what I want to do in my life.
|
| I am European, this might matter.
| tinyhouse wrote:
| What medication is helping you sleep if I may ask?
| H8crilA wrote:
| The psychiatrist prescribed me Trazodone and sticking to a
| strict sleep schedule. Needless to say those are not over-
| the-counter drugs so go to a doctor if you need them.
|
| Also, in general it was very instructive for me to read
| carefully the Wikipedia page for occupational burnout.
| tinyhouse wrote:
| Thanks. I tried Trazodone but the dry mouth side effect was
| too much for me.
| throw1234651234 wrote:
| Tell no one. Drink energy drinks. When it's not enough, drink
| more. Sleep 8. Wake up 10 years later with busted arteries and a
| great career. Yeaaa. Sippp.
|
| No, seriously, I don't have any better advice.
|
| P.S. The person saying sleep more is right. It will help you
| recover (partially) from the havoc the energy drinks wreak on
| your body.
| RangerScience wrote:
| Learned a couple of things that really helped me around
| sleeping:
|
| 1. Sleep is when your brain shifts processing power from
| consciousness/etc to maintenance. Like defragging a disk drive.
| When I can't sleep, I'll just try to focus on my body with this
| in mind, and it kinda works like sleep, and kinda helps me get
| closer to sleep.
|
| 2. If you're having trouble falling asleep, gently wrap the
| fingers of your dominant hand around the opposite thumb (you're
| just holding it). Do that for an _estimated_ (do NOT count, or
| set a timer, or anything that requires focus) two minutes, then
| move to the next finger. It 's fricking _magic_.
|
| When I can't sleep and do these things, even if I don't wake up
| rested, I don't wake up still tired, either.
| throw1234651234 wrote:
| Those are interesting tips. Tbh I have never had a problem
| with sleep if I follow the standard advice, in no particular
| order:
|
| * Exercise or walk for an hour during the day
|
| * Turn of electronics an hour before bed and do something
| calm, e.g. read a book (often not necessary, but if you want
| surefire)
|
| * Have a consistent sleep schedule - wake up at same time at
| least 6 days a week
|
| * Complete dark - blackout curtains or t-shirt over face
|
| * Complete quite - ear plugs. A lot of people complain about
| them, but they work great if you just can't sleep.
|
| * Don't move - usually best if you sleep on back
|
| * Most "techniques - counting breath, repeating a phrase, etc
| don't work, just don't think about anything important
|
| * On the note of my (somewhat sarcastic) point about energy
| drinks - don't have those or any coffee/sugar at least 16
| hours before you sleep
|
| As long and convoluted as that list seems, to me it's just
| essential to reliably sleep every time. I use it and it
| works.
| RangerScience wrote:
| Yeah, I'm _really_ bad at most of these, haha. For example,
| I absolutely love to be woken up by the sun (heyo, SoCal!)
| so blackout curtains are a non-starter for everyday use.
| pmoriarty wrote:
| Everybody's different, and there are no guaranteed solutions
| that'll work for everyone.
|
| That said, if your diagnosis is accurate and you have _serious_
| occupational burnout, then I 'd seriously consider switching
| careers to something radically different from what you're doing
| now -- and the sooner the better.
|
| The longer you wait, the less realistic switching careers will
| be, and then you might be forced to keep working at a job you
| hate, which can drive some to suicide or severe mental breakdown.
|
| Psychedelic therapy might help, but I wouldn't look at it as a
| way to become chipper and go cheerily back to work but as a way
| to have a deep, hard look at your life and reconnect with what
| truly matters (which might not be work-related at all).
|
| Ultimately, you have to somehow reconnect with the strength and
| sense of meaning within you, because at the end of it all no one
| else can fix your life... but having a strong support network can
| help. Don't go it alone, and reconnect as much as possible with
| those who you care about and who care about you. But at the same
| time, friends and family are not trained professionals, and
| there's only so much they can do, so it's important to find a
| therapist you respect, like, trust, and can open up to.
|
| Good luck, and I hope this disease doesn't swallow you up like it
| has so many of us.
| athorax wrote:
| "I don't have many hobbies (if any) and in the middle of the
| pandemic there isn't much to do anyway."
|
| This was a huge issue for me over the last year. It has made a
| huge impact to my work life to finally have activities outside of
| work I enjoy doing again.
| deejes wrote:
| Whatever you do, my advice is don't do it from a place of fear or
| desperation.
|
| Take the time you need to think about what's best, and delay
| irreversible decisions until you are in a good place to make
| them.
|
| Do whatever you need to get into a good mental space so you can
| think about what's the best course of action for you.
| deejes wrote:
| Very best wishes for the coming few months - may they open new
| doors of possibility and well being for you :pray :)
| babyshake wrote:
| Out of curiosity what are the symptoms of severe occupational
| burnout? How would you differentiate it from something like
| depression?
| armchairhacker wrote:
| burnout can lead to depression and vice versa. Honestly the
| treatment for both burnout and non-chemical depression is the
| same: eat healthy, exercise moderately, sleep enough, minimize
| stress, try to find hobbies you enjoy, and take time off if you
| feel you need it (with burnout the answer is always yes, but
| taking time off can help improve depression too)
| _moof wrote:
| From the ICD: "Burnout is a syndrome conceptualized as
| resulting from chronic workplace stress that has not been
| successfully managed. It is characterised by three dimensions:
| 1) feelings of energy depletion or exhaustion; 2) increased
| mental distance from one's job, or feelings of negativism or
| cynicism related to one's job; and 3) a sense of
| ineffectiveness and lack of accomplishment. Burn-out refers
| specifically to phenomena in the occupational context and
| should not be applied to describe experiences in other areas of
| life."
|
| https://icd.who.int/browse11/l-m/en#/http://id.who.int/icd/e...
|
| For comparison depression is "depressed mood or diminished
| interest in activities occurring most of the day, nearly every
| day during a period lasting at least two weeks accompanied by
| other symptoms such as difficulty concentrating, feelings of
| worthlessness or excessive or inappropriate guilt,
| hopelessness, recurrent thoughts of death or suicide, changes
| in appetite or sleep, psychomotor agitation or retardation, and
| reduced energy or fatigue."
|
| https://icd.who.int/browse11/l-m/en#/http%3a%2f%2fid.who.int...
| burntoutfire wrote:
| > 1) feelings of energy depletion or exhaustion; 2) increased
| mental distance from one's job, or feelings of negativism or
| cynicism related to one's job; and 3) a sense of
| ineffectiveness and lack of accomplishment.
|
| That's a description of most of my career. However, as long
| as they keep paying me well, it doesn't matter that much if
| I'm burned out or not - the money keeps coming in either way,
| and stash grows every month. I've never been fired either, so
| it looks like my performance while burned out is still enough
| to meet expectations.
| amelius wrote:
| Start sleeping 10+ hours a day for a while.
| tomcam wrote:
| I have horrible insomnia and would be thrilled with 4+
| hours/day. Your notion that one could just sleep any amount at
| will is a wilder fantasy than the ones I have about Scarlett
| Johannson. Nothing helps: drugs, meditation, quitting caffeine,
| dietary changes, exercise, etc.
| dominotw wrote:
| > Your notion that one could just sleep any amount at will is
| a wilder fantasy than the ones I have about Scarlett
| Johannson.
|
| I have family telling me to "just sleep more" as if i
| wouldn't do that if it was in my control.
| nvarsj wrote:
| I assume you talked to a doctor about it? Insomnia is the
| worst - you have my condolences. I personally have recurring
| short lived bouts for a few weeks (falling exhausted at 12,
| only to wake up 3 hours later unable to sleep again, repeat
| every day). My dad had terrible insomnia too, I think I'm
| just prone to it. I know I am likely HSP too, so my brain is
| hardwired to react more strongly than normal to stimulus. I
| find a pitch black room helps a lot. Beyond that, trying to
| reduce stress as much as I can, but being a parent, and
| working in tech, it isn't so easy.
| mandmandam wrote:
| I'm sure people are always telling you things to try, but in
| case it helps - have you tried the 4-7-8 breathing technique
| for sleep, or Wim Hof? Both are fairly rapid in effect, and
| help manage cortisol.
| amelius wrote:
| > Your notion that one could just sleep any amount at will
|
| I'm sorry about your situation but I believe most people can
| sleep 10+ hours if they want, under the right conditions.
| diob wrote:
| I don't know if I would tell your boss / team. For now, I would
| keep it to yourself and take it as an opportunity to step back a
| bit. Still do work, but don't kill yourself.
|
| Your lack of hobbies is probably directly related to this. I'm
| not sure how many hours you're working but have they led you to
| trim your free time?
|
| Don't let yourself work overtime, and try to find something you
| love to do instead of work. Reading, exercising, anything. Commit
| to loving yourself everyday.
|
| If you can, take some vacation when your comfortable.
| bradenb wrote:
| In my experience, the right answer totally depends on your
| employment situation and your relationship with your boss and
| team. I think the safest answer is to try and mix things up for
| yourself (try a new IDE, a new stack, a new OS, etc) without
| telling your team. For me--and I think maybe this is ideal for
| most--you would have a good working relationship with your boss
| and you could use them to help you find a way out of the rut.
| Maybe that means transitioning to a new team, new project, or
| something else.
|
| In the past when I've experienced burnout, I didn't get over it
| by powering through it. Taking time off without filling the void
| with something meaningful also wasn't the answer for me. I wanted
| to work and to stay busy, but I needed to find a problem that I
| could latch on to and be truly interested in. Since I enjoy
| learning, trying new patterns and new tools was usually enough
| for me. There was one past episode of burnout where I simply had
| to find a new company because nothing that company did was
| exciting to me anymore.
|
| Good luck.
| tpoacher wrote:
| I just posted this on another thread, but I think it might help
| you here too: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30000296
| thenerdhead wrote:
| - Should I tell my boss and/or team? Should I tell them right
| away, or wait until I know what other steps I want to take? What
| should I expect their reactions to be?
|
| Yes and No. Yes if you believe your boss will be supportive to
| help you find a work-life balance. No if you don't think so and
| just try to work less to recover.
|
| - Should I take time off? How much? Or should I try to work
| reduced hours? I'm hesitant because I don't have many hobbies (if
| any) and in the middle of the pandemic there isn't much to do
| anyway. I don't think running out of things to do would be any
| better for my health than continuing as-is. I've been there
| before and I don't handle boredom well.
|
| Both? Use your time to recover and work reduced hours. Find new
| hobbies and get bored because that way you will be more creative
| and pursue passion projects. Maybe you're burned out because you
| don't have a hobby outside of work. Embrace being bored until
| creativity strikes for your next thing.
|
| - If I continue working, is there something in my working
| environment I should try to change? Think of senior engineer in a
| typical DevOps-y SaaS startup.
|
| Burnout in my experience comes from not having something better
| to do than work. Find hobbies, make friends, play games, read
| books, etc. It can also manifest in not being able to accomplish
| certain things at work, so talk to people and find ways to
| unblock yourself.
|
| - Is there anything specific to working in tech and burning out
| that I should know about? I feel like this isn't exactly rare.
|
| Not really. Maybe you just have been working too much and you're
| at the verge of a breakdown. Find things that make you happy.
| Right now, that's probably not a computer.
| nautl wrote:
| All good advice here around sleep, physical fitness and diet.
|
| Really look at your diet. I went through a period where I was
| finding it harder and harder to stay focused at work, and I
| attributed it to burnout. Then I started taking fish oil capsules
| for vitamin D and the problem magically went away.
|
| I;m not saying that will work for you, but I am saying diet makes
| a HUGE difference to mood, ability to concentrate and general
| mental well-being. Sometimes you are just deficient in some
| essential nutrient.
|
| But those are the big three. Sleep, diet and exercise.
| nautl wrote:
| For sleep, go and find Andrew Huberman's podcast on Spotify and
| listen to them in order.
| ok_dad wrote:
| > Should I tell my boss and/or team?
|
| No, they will stab you in the back, no matter how much you think
| they won't.
|
| > Should I take time off? How much?
|
| Yes, if possible several months or a year so you have time to get
| fully away from the grind.
|
| > Is there something in my working environment I should try to
| change?
|
| Probably reduce the volume of work you are doing or do something
| that you care about more.
|
| > Is there anything specific to working in tech and burning out
| that I should know about?
|
| Yes, it's a constant treadmill of work, and if you aren't ready
| to never finish a project (all projects I've seen are in constant
| flux with constant changes) then get out now and find a career
| where you actually produce a finished product then move on to the
| next (like furniture building). The idea that software is a thing
| that is "complete" was a leftover from the 90's and the constant
| treadmill makes some people (myself included) go nuts.
| sulam wrote:
| > No, they will stab you in the back, no matter how much you
| think they won't.
|
| At the end of the day, the business has to do the right thing
| for the organization, even when that's not to the benefit of an
| individual in the organization.
|
| That said, "the end of the day" is not the beginning. Yes, some
| people will behave the way you describe. It can be hard to be
| sure you can trust another human being who you know will be
| forced to fire you if you can't do the work they hired you to
| do, at least on a long enough time frame. But not everyone will
| "stab you in the back", I can promise that.
| foepys wrote:
| > At the end of the day, the business has to do the right
| thing for the organization, even when that's not to the
| benefit of an individual in the organization.
|
| How dystopian.
|
| When a colleague of mine burned out they talked to their boss
| and the boss assured them to take as much time as they
| needed. Then the boss made sure that everybody took as much
| load off of them as possible so they don't have to worry
| about projects and other things work related.
|
| In the end my colleague was home for about 12 months, then
| returned to work, and is still working there, just not as
| many hours. No problems anywhere, everybody is happy. The
| boss is happy because they have an experienced employee back
| and the employees that their boss cares about them.
| bradenb wrote:
| > > Should I tell my boss and/or team? > No, they will stab you
| in the back, no matter how much you think they won't.
|
| I disagree that this is universally true. I have had at least 2
| bosses that I know would help deal with burnout because 1 of
| them helped me and the other I have seen help others in this
| same situation. A good boss cares about their employee's health
| and wants to keep good workers. I agree that your advice is the
| safe route, but I think if you know for a fact you have one of
| the good bosses of the world then that approach can lead to
| better results.
| bastardoperator wrote:
| I had an opposite experience. I went to my manager and
| described how I felt when I was feeling like OP early in the
| pandemic. I couldn't tell if it was anxiety, burnout or both.
|
| He recommended an immediate two week vacation to clear my head
| and told me to plan my next vacation for two weeks 6 months out
| from my last vacation so that there was a constant light at the
| end of the tunnel. He was empathetic, and explained losing me
| would be costly and that he wants to avoid that. Had I not
| spoken up I would have ended up giving up a great job at a
| great company for what was mostly inside my own head.
|
| I also went to my doctor and got anti-anxiety medication and
| that seemed to help. Now that I no longer had physical
| manifestations of my issues, and that fact that I was getting
| feedback that I was valued and that my health mattered, it
| really calmed me down.
|
| If you have decent manager, they want to see you succeed, and
| they care about your well being. If they don't, bailing from
| the position is probably in your best interest anyways. Either
| way, it's an opportunity to see where you stand. Letting go
| will feel good in the short term, but maybe not so good long
| term. Doing nothing and hiding it will likely exacerbate the
| issue. I would say something, I at the very least deserve to be
| heard. What they do with the details is on them, not you.
| l30n4da5 wrote:
| > > Should I take time off? How much?
|
| > Yes, if possible several months or a year so you have time to
| get fully away from the grind.
|
| I honestly do not know a single person who has the funds saved
| up to do this.
| m4tthumphrey wrote:
| I would like to write a much bigger reply but for right now,
| these are my core principles for dealing with, and now
| preventing, burnout.
|
| Exercise, get outside once a day, get a daily routine in place,
| sleep better
| RangerScience wrote:
| 1. You should almost certainly talk to your boss, unless your
| boss is emotionally incompetent or disinterested in your well-
| being. Remember that you don't have to _finish_ the conversation
| in the same session you start it.
|
| 2. Almost certainly! But remember that work/life balance doesn't
| just mean _leaving work_ , it means _having something you want to
| do_ that isn 't work.
|
| 2a. I know what you mean about boredom, but my brother pointed
| something out to me at a resort in Cancun, which I was finding
| absolutely boring: The place is _supposed to be that_ , because
| it forces you to relax.
|
| 3. Yes. I don't have any advice about specifically what, but I
| would strongly recommend that you just start changing things.
| This'll both break feelings of stagnation/stasis, and if you're
| lucky, actually be an improvement. But the important part isn't
| that you find the _right_ change, it 's that _things start
| changing_.
|
| 4. What we do is fundamentally creative, and fundamentally
| knowledge-work. Most of us started doing it because we like it,
| so it's easier for us to over-do it; and over-doing is, AFAIK,
| more susceptible to burn-out because you're forcing your mind
| into uncomfortable arrangements. I guess you could think of
| burnout as RSI for your creativity.
|
| Think about how you get physically strong:
|
| 1. Pick up heavy things
|
| 2. Put them down
|
| 3. Take a nap.
|
| This is true for mental (and emotional!) strength as well.
| bcopa wrote:
| First, I'd highly recommend you get a Swedish massage.
|
| I know it sounds frivolous, but the massage will work like a
| magic pill on you right now. There's been some research on it -
| but basically persistent stress makes your body tense, and then
| even if your mental stress is gone, your body's tenseness keeps
| you on fight or flight mode. You shouldn't make any decisions in
| this mode.
|
| A 60 minute massage will untangle this stiffness and put you on
| the right mindset to make the best next decisions.
| RangerScience wrote:
| If you can find bath houses (in SF there's a... Russian?
| bathhouse, in LA there's lots of Korean bath houses - Wi Spa is
| probably the most popular), you can combine both a spa day
| (hello hot/cold plunges!) with massages. _Highly_ recommend the
| combination.
| dm03514 wrote:
| +1
|
| About 7 years ago I got a massage and went to a store in a
| location that usually caused me a ton of stress due to the
| driving and the parking and how overcrowded the store gets.
| After the massage I did not experience any stress; 0, none,
| zip, zilch. My muscles were completely relaxed and had 0 stress
| in them.
|
| At that moment I realized that stress doesn't cause tightness,
| but tightness causes stress, for me. Relaxed muscles relaxes my
| mind.
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