[HN Gopher] Adding unusable RAM for tax reasons ___________________________________________________________________ Adding unusable RAM for tax reasons Author : NieDzejkob Score : 155 points Date : 2022-01-20 17:11 UTC (5 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.cpcwiki.eu) (TXT) w3m dump (www.cpcwiki.eu) | cromka wrote: | > Without the stiff competition of the smaller, lighter, easier- | to-drive, and more fuel efficient import pickups and vans, | Detroit automakers were no longer required to keep pace with | innovation of foreign brands. | | One has to wonder how much this innocent-looking levy contributed | to the overall global warming situation, by never having the US | automakers to be incentivized to manufacture more efficient | commercial fleet, and, as such, inbreeding the culture of buying | the overly big pick ups and SUVs with massive engines for private | use, too. | putlake wrote: | NPR's Marketplace had a fascinating story about something similar | in the apparel business. They design pockets in various types of | clothing to reduce tariffs. | | https://www.marketplace.org/2019/05/29/theres-a-reason-your-... | | Example from the article: | | Certain women's garments with "pockets below the waist" get lower | duty rates than those without. Because of that, a number of the | women's shirts Columbia Sportswear makes are intentionally | designed with tiny pockets near the waistline, which lowers the | cost of importing them. One of the company's shorthands for | "pockets below the waist" is "nurse's pocket." | FroshKiller wrote: | Marketplace is produced by American Public Media, not National | Public Radio. | imposterr wrote: | Archive link: https://archive.fo/Qlsx2 | AviationAtom wrote: | Thanks, kind neighbor. It appears to be hugged to death | already. | JoeAltmaier wrote: | Pistols manufactured in Mexico are imported as a kit of parts, | then assembled as "Made in America!" | SMAAART wrote: | Tax is the reason why Converse sneakers have fuzzy bottoms | https://www.businessinsider.com/heres-why-converse-sneakers-... | sparkling wrote: | Something similar: for the original Playstation 2 that was sold | in the EU, Sony included a DVD with a BASIC interpreter to | classify the console as a personal computer. This little hack | avoided some EU import taxes back in the day. | | https://www.theregister.com/2000/11/07/sony_adds_basic_to_pl... | rasz wrote: | Same with 29.59 min video recording limit on tons of cameras. | https://www.borrowlenses.com/blog/video-recording-limits-in-... | | "In 2006, the European Union created a law that added an import | duty of 5-12% to any video camera. What determined whether a | camera was a video camera? In short, the ability to record | longer than 30 minutes. Thus, companies like Canon and Nikon | decided to cap their video clip lengths, preventing their | enthusiast and prosumer cameras from being considered video | cameras." | Gigachad wrote: | Still seems like a win as it made the console more useful. | Johnie wrote: | This is like how tax policies gave rise to White Claw | https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/09/how-tax-policy-gave-... | sodality2 wrote: | https://web.archive.org/web/20211204094705/https://www.cpcwi... | cybervegan wrote: | That's so unethical - and Alan Sugar is held up as an example of | a business genius? | Isthatablackgsd wrote: | Funny enough, I learnt about this from Noel's Retro Lab YT | channel last week [0]. When I saw the title, I figured it is | about CPC 472 before loading the page. Yup it is. I recommend a | video to watch, it is fascinating of why they did and Noel shows | the breakdown of this unusable RAM in the video. | | [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ErfWfjN9iU | rietta wrote: | Glock ships their Glock 19 from Austria to Smyrna, Georgia, with | adjustable target sights to have enough points under US import | law and then an armorer changes those sights to their fixed self | defense sights to be sold in the US market. Presumably the sights | get shipped back to Austria for the next batch. | eb0la wrote: | Taxes are one of the most powerful incentives in the world. | | For instance, dumping positions at loss before new years eve | might help you with your tax bill since you have losses. | | And of course, setting up a company in a country where you did | buy a lot of spectrum and you have huge losses, effectively | creating a tax credit ( | https://www.reuters.com/article/telefonica-germany/update-2-... ) | djrogers wrote: | Selling stocks at a loss is only helpful in the short term, or | if you don't think those stocks are going back up. If you | harvest a loss for a tax deduction on December 31, and the | stock goes back up by the end of January so you'd be even, you | are way behind - because the loss only comes back to you at | your highest tax rate. | brilee wrote: | Figuring out how to defer taxes is equivalent to receiving a | free loan from the government, which can be used to profit on | the float. | vmception wrote: | > and the stock goes back up by the end of January so you'd | be even, you are way behind | | there are ETFs created for the sole purpose of circumventing | this, by providing exposure to the same asset or market | forces | | the wash sale regulation has amendment aimed at preventing | this by prohibiting trades of "substantially similar | securities", but I don't think it passes muster or has any | teeth. you report all the trades to the IRS its up to them to | figure out if your UltraShares 3x Inverse Pez Dispenser ETF | is substantially similar to the Direxion one | MR4D wrote: | Not quite true. | | For instance, I could sell my losses in a growth fund only to | buy a different growth fund (not the same index though) and I | get to stay in the market. | | Ideally you would do this on day 364 of losses to maximize | the tax incentive. | djrogers wrote: | It's not a tax incentive though - an incentive encourages | you to do something, nobody is encouraged to _lose money_. | Also, if one were to do the above, and the growth fund went | up, you 'd wind up paying taxes on that gain which would | offset the tax deduction you took on the loss when you | eventually sold it, whereas you could have just stayed in, | waited for it to go back up, and you'd be at a wash. | | If someone followed your advice exactly and sold on day 364 | vs staying in they'd lose even more, as by the time the | initial investment goes back up (after day 365) you'd be in | long-term capital gains territory, which is a lower tax | rate. | | That's why I said it only works in the short term - | eventually the gov't is gonna get it's money. | laurencerowe wrote: | While the benefits are limited, there are advantages: | | 1. Harvesting your capital losses allows you to offset | other gains which may be taxable at an earlier date. | $1000 today is worth substantially more than $1000 in 10 | years time. 'Tax deferred is tax avoided.' | | 2. You can offset up to $3000 of losses a year against | regular income which is taxed at a higher rate. | | For me at least while it seems worthwhile to switch index | funds to harvest losses when the market falls | substantially the upsides aren't enough to justify the | lock in of using something like Betterment's automatic | tax loss harvesting features of their platform by having | you invest in many individual stocks managed by their | roboadvisor rather than an index fund. | MR4D wrote: | They are encouraging people to sell. | | Most people wouldn't care, but if you're in a high tax | bracket and you can sell one to buy another and keep your | risk profile roughly the same, you'll do it. | | People prefer to pay long term gains and take short term | losses. The benefits work in your favor and against the | govt. The tax code reflects that, and has for a long | time. | hllooo wrote: | it can work if you're offsetting existing short term | gains and hold the replacement for >1 year, or if the | stock never recovers, in which case you pull forward the | deduction | mhh__ wrote: | This is why Carbon Taxes should be preferred over the state | dictating policies to companies. | acdha wrote: | Preferred, but you often need more nuance than that -- for | example, if a carbon tax is set high enough to deter | profitable heavy industrial activities it would require care | not to have a disproportionate impact on people who depend on | cars, non-electric heating, etc. Those can be mitigated, of | course, but it starts to make the tax policy a lot more | complicated. | | The other problem is that we probably had time for a carbon | tax when the idea was first advanced decades ago. It's not | clear to me that we can afford a gradual approach now when we | really need to be doing things like saying you just can't buy | new coal burning equipment at any price, for example. | Gigachad wrote: | Carbon taxes are set up so they cancel regular taxes. So if | you use the average amount of greenhouse gasses, you come | out equal, if you use more than the average, you come out | worse, and if you use less than the average you come out | better. So overnight not a whole lot changes but everyone | enters a race to use the least greenhouse gasses. | dan-robertson wrote: | Carbon taxes seem to be pretty unpopular and I think it's a | failure of imagination for climate economists to keep | repeating the same idea instead of trying to find things that | are more palatable. | Teknoman117 wrote: | Of course they're unpopular. No one wants to pay for the | total lifecycle costs of what they do. | young_unixer wrote: | Being against climate change and against carbon taxes at | the same time basically boils down to "I want everyone else | to work hard on solving this problem, except for me. I want | to keep benefiting from the low prices that the pollution | economy has made possible, but I don't want any pollution." | | I don't think there's any reasonable solution that will | appease those people. | NoboruWataya wrote: | Maybe I'm too pessimistic, but I'm pretty sure any solution | that is drastic enough to actually work will be | unpalatable. "Somebody else will pay for it" is the only | solution anyone wants to hear. | 8ytecoder wrote: | Important to note that you can't buy back the same | stock/instrument and claim capital loss in most countries | fragmede wrote: | Tis a _very_ important note for as an amature tax- | advantageous practice! You _can_ buy something similar, | though. eg trade AMD for Intel or some such. Where investors | are concerned about markets rather than invidivuals stocks | (AMD and INTC are both hardware tech stocks), the notion is | that a rising tide lifts all boats, and that large, sector- | related good news for Intel is good news for AMD. It 's not | strictly true, obviously, but it's close enough that the | practice is worthwhile. | geocrasher wrote: | This reminds me of the Subaru BRAT in the early '80s. There was a | 25% tarrif on imported pickups. So Subaru added two plastic jump | seats in the back of the BRAT, even making them face backwards. | No seat belts as I recall just handles. They weren't even really | intended to be used. They were just cheap plastic. But they | served the purpose of making the vehicle a four-seater car | instead of a pickup, with only a 2.5% tarrif. | | Tarrif averted, thousands sold! | | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_BRAT | bko wrote: | That's fascinating. I remember hearing there about a giant book | on import taxes on apparel with various definitions. For | instance, "sandals" may be taxed X but "open toed shoes" may be | taxed Y. Apparently these rates drive fashion trends to an | incredible degree where even small modifications to a product | could totally change the economics. | eli wrote: | There's a famous example that Converse All Stars included a | very thin fuzzy lining along the outside of the soles so that | they could qualify under the "slipper" tax instead of the | higher "sneaker" tax. | matsur wrote: | Said giant book: https://hts.usitc.gov/current | bko wrote: | The legends are true. | | The differences could be huge | | > Footwear with open toes or open heels; footwear of the | slip-on type, that is held to the foot without the use of | laces or buckles or other fasteners, the foregoing except | footwear of subheading 6402.99.33 and except footwear | having a foxing or a foxing-like band wholly or almost | wholly of rubber or plastics applied or molded at the sole | and overlapping the upper: | | >> Having outer soles with textile materials having the | greatest surface area in contact with the ground, but not | taken into account under the terms of additional U.S. note | 5 to this chapter 12.5% | | >> Other 37.5% | | > Sandals and similar footwear of plastics, produced in one | piece by molding. 3% | albatross13 wrote: | Life uh...finds a way. | philk10 wrote: | Are Jaffa cakes classed as biscuits or cakes? | https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-38985820 | bryanlarsen wrote: | That's a great article. Dives into philosophy without getting | wishy-washy. Must have been a fun article to write. | | > And if it's true to say, "a Jaffa Cake is a cake" (or "a | Jaffa Cake is a biscuit") then that also tells us something | about the world, i.e. about the properties of a Jaffa Cake, | as well as about the meaning of the word "cake". | | And of course it's even more fun because I have to mentally | substitute "cookie" every time I read "biscuit". | philk10 wrote: | yeh, as a Brit who's been in the US for 10 years now i | still have to do the cookie/biscuit chips/crisps | fries/chips thing | kingcharles wrote: | LOL. Same. | inanutshellus wrote: | now you've got me wondering about those old Fig Newtons | commercials "it's not a cookie, it's fruited cake!" | HeavenFox wrote: | There's also the Ford vs Chicken Tax; basically U.S. import | tariff for passenger van is 2.5% and cargo van is 25%, so Ford, | which manufactured their Transit van in Turkey, installed seats | in factory and stripped the seats once they arrived in the U.S. | | Now looks like they are in trouble for this scheme. | | https://jalopnik.com/ford-faces-potential-1-3-billion-fine-f... | | (And why it's called Chicken Tax is another fascinating | story...) | bentcorner wrote: | There's also the infamous _Toy Biz, Inc. v. United States_ | case where Marvel Comics argued that their X-Men toys where | "nonhuman toys" and not dolls to avoid an import tax. | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toy_Biz%2C_Inc._v._United_Stat. | .. | | The irony is that in the X-Men universe, the X-Men fight for | a unification of mutants and humans. | autoexec wrote: | Still, technically true though I'd think. Mutants aren't | human. The X-Gene makes them "Homo sapiens superior" and | distinguishes them from humans who were mutated by other | means (radiation, spider bites, etc). Do X-men want to | erase the distinction or do they just want peaceful | coexistence between the two species? | quietbritishjim wrote: | I'm not saying this would affect a court ruling, but as a | point of curiosity: technically "human" means the _homo_ | genus, not just the _sapiens_ species. So Neanderthals | for example, or _homo erectus_ , are both human. The | X-men would be human too, if they were indeed _homo | sapiens superior_. | cgriswald wrote: | As species boundaries go, human/mutant is incredibly | arbitrary. Either a mutant or a human can be created from | a pairing of human-human, mutant-human, or mutant-mutant. | It would be like classifying blonde people as a different | species. | notch656a wrote: | I'm guessing they're only trouble because they took the seats | out. Probably cheaper just to leave them in, and sell along | with wrench to remove them 'in case it's needed for repair.' | A friendly source will publish in a trade magazine it's the | same van after 12 minutes to remove the seats, and the scheme | will continue. | fredoralive wrote: | According to an article about it[1], Ford also removed / | panelled in various windows as well, so conversion probably | isn't as trivially DIYable as just removing some token | seats. | | Although I suppose van buyers are slightly more likely to | know someone with a welding torch and some steel sheets | than the average person, so perhaps they missed a trick... | | [1]https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/SB125357990638429655 | Hokusai wrote: | > Now looks like they are in trouble for this scheme. | | All these cheats will never be accepted for working | individuals. Corporations get a different flavor of justice. | Even then they push it to the limits and dinner times find a | burocrat in the pertinent agency willing to push forward a | rightful punishment. | ethbr0 wrote: | SMB and sole proprietorships get away with ridiculous tax | things constantly! The only difference is they usually | don't try to take it to the Supreme Court when the IRS | audits them. | Pasorrijer wrote: | Yeah I remember reading that the Ford employees on the US | side got the removal time down to 12 minutes a van. | gumby wrote: | Given the cost of labor it was probably worth doing some | design engineering to make the removal as easy as possible | PaulDavisThe1st wrote: | Perhaps a more relevant and legally robust example is the | Mercedes Benz Sprinter, which is manufactured in Germany, but | US-bound vehicles have various parts removed before shipping. | A facility in NC reassembles the vehicles (the removed parts | are shipped with the van) once they arrive, which reduces or | eliminates the tax. | jrockway wrote: | Wow. I hope the government loses their lawsuit here. Customs | & Border Protection should have absolutely no jurisdiction | over what an item is used for once it enters the country. | colejohnson66 wrote: | Ford lost in 2019. An appeal to the Supreme Court was | denied.[0] My non-lawyer understand of the issue wasn't so | much that they were avoiding a tariff ("tariff | engineering"), but that they were removing the seats upon | entry. In contrast with the BRAT where the dummy seats were | still there when sold. | | [0]: https://www.autoblog.com/2021/06/03/ford-transit- | connect-imp... | nathanvanfleet wrote: | So in your view they just felt like adding seats and then | removing them later? | harles wrote: | I'd expect some were also sold with the seats, they just | changed the default config. I wonder what the ratio was | though. | R0b0t1 wrote: | This doesn't really assuage his concern. The government | is still dictating what you do with items. | | CBP is one of the worst infringers upon personal rights, | I wouldn't defend them. | dragonwriter wrote: | > The government is still dictating what you do with | items. | | Well, no, they are dictating what taxes you owe based on | intent, and using consistent patterns of behavior as | evidence of ongoing intent. | | This isn't Ford _changing their mind_ about the purpose | of the vehicle after importing them. | babypuncher wrote: | They aren't telling you what you can do with your items. | They are telling you what taxes you owe based on the | intended function of said item. | R0b0t1 wrote: | The power to tax is the power to destroy. The same | overzealous power they have to tell me what my usage | intent was also allows them to totally ban items that | aren't actually banned. | etskinner wrote: | I wonder if they could, in theory, sell you the car for | 150% of it's final price (so that they seats are there | when sold), then buy back the seats immediately for 50% | of its price. The invoice would say something like: Car | with passenger seats: $15,000; Passenger seat buyback: | $5,000; Total after buyback: $10,000. | | That way everyone gets what they want, and they've | technically sold it with the seats still installed. | [deleted] | babypuncher wrote: | Frankly I think our justice system should be less | tolerant of "hacks" like this. They clearly violate the | intent of the law, even if technically following it to | the letter. | cgriswald wrote: | I prefer judges and lawyers interpret what the law says, | not what they believe lawmakers _meant_ to say. It is | lawmakers responsibility to craft quality laws. Such | hacks expose weaknesses in the laws as written. | | Edit: ... _when successful._ | dataflow wrote: | > It is lawmakers responsibility to craft quality laws. | | Judging by how hard it is for programmers to write bug- | free instructions for literal computers, I'm not sure | your expectation of flawless legislation is something | realistic for mere mortals. | noizejoy wrote: | And I prefer to see judges and lawyers as safety valves | for mitigating badly written legislation. | noizejoy wrote: | While I agree with your well intentioned sentiment, | "intent" is even more nebulous and arguable. | laurent92 wrote: | Isn't a lot of securization necessary for two more seats? | Adding floor reinforcements, seatbelts, and more | importantly, passing the crash tests with two more seats? | [deleted] | thaeli wrote: | They have to do that for the passenger version of the van | anyway. | kentonv wrote: | Law isn't interpreted by computers, it is interpreted by | human judges, who generally aren't impressed by such | hacks (though you might get lucky). | dragonwriter wrote: | Yeah, when the law allows additional sanction for | willful/knowing violation, courts will not only often see | through your "clever hack", but also see it as evidence | of deliberate wrongdoing. | bjustin wrote: | And collect tax on $20,000 in sales instead of $10,000? | Maybe they would be happy if car companies used this | scheme. | colejohnson66 wrote: | Then the government would collect income tax _from the | owner_ on that rebate as well, no? Seems like an | expensive operation. | gamblor956 wrote: | The issue was that the seats were only added for the | purposes of evading tax, and the tax evasive purpose was | established by Ford systematically removing the seats prior | to sale. | | Ford would have been fine if they had kept the seats in the | car until they were sold and left it up to the customer to | remove the seats. (This would not have affected the | customer, tax-wise, since the import duty is paid by Ford, | and by the time the customer has removed the seats, they | have already paid the sales tax on the vehicle.) | khuey wrote: | Why? Borders are full of rules of the form "X can cross for | purpose A but not for purpose B" for both people and goods. | jrockway wrote: | How long does the rule apply for? If someone removes | seats from their van, is that tax evasion? What if it's | temporary? If an individual can do it, why not Ford? | | The problem I have here is how easy it is to avoid the | tax. CBP shouldn't have any jurisdiction over car | modifications and repairs; that responsibility falls to | different agencies. | fredoralive wrote: | It seems that the issue was that Ford, the importer, | changed the class of vehicle between import and being | sold inside the US. Presumably if you aren't the importer | you can go wild (IANAL). | jrockway wrote: | Yeah, so they're really just getting punished for not | dotting their is and crossing their ts. They could create | a subsidiary with the same board of directors as Ford | that they sell the cars to, and then the subsidiary does | the dirty work of repurposing the cars from passenger | vehicles to cargo vehicles. They skipped paying the $100 | corporate registration fee, so now they're on the hook | for a billion dollar fine that would have been legal if | they added another company to the mix? Give me a break. | gowld wrote: | You are arguing that because it is possible to break the | law and escape on a technicality, the law is invalid in | all cases. | nybble41 wrote: | If they "escaped on a technicality" then they weren't | breaking the law. That "technicality" is part of the law. | | The indefensible part is tying a large difference in | import tariffs to how many seats are installed. Absurd | outcomes such as this one highlight systematic flaws in | the rules. If the basis for the tariffs were logically | sound you wouldn't be able to work around them without | addressing the reason the tariffs were imposed in the | first place. | beerandt wrote: | No- the norm is for things to be imported, then combined | or modified and sold as a new product, without paying the | import tax based on the new product. | | If import tax on a cpu is x, and motherboard is y, should | you have to pay computer import tax z if you build and | sell PCs? After all, what imported cpus and motherboards | aren't destined to be assembled computers? | fredoralive wrote: | I was more talking about this particular case, where it | seems it was judged that Ford didn't make a new product | out of imported parts, but importing a finished vehicle | as one thing, and selling it as another after minor | modification. | | It is a more normal way around these sorts of tariffs to | import a vehicle as a kit of parts (CKD / "Complete | knocked down"), and perform some level of final assembly | in the end country. The sort of rules you talk about | apply then, you pay the car parts import rate on the kit, | not the (presumably higher) rate for a complete car[1]. | | [1] Or otherwise avoid whatever other protectionist | measures mean you can't just import a fully built car. | KarlKemp wrote: | The fact I can't tell you the individual grain of sand | that makes the difference does not imply that the concept | of a "sand beach" is meaningless. | babypuncher wrote: | The rule applies to the entity responsible for importing | the item. Since Ford was importing the vehicle and then | altering it immediately afterwards to escape the tax, | they are in the wrong. If they instead sold it as-is to a | customer, and the customer then made the modification | themselves, it wouldn't be a problem. | AnimalMuppet wrote: | The courts tend to take a dim view of "clever hacks" to | get around the law, where the intent is clearly to | circumvent the law and the action has no other purpose. | They don't always rule that way. But if you pull this | kind of stunt, you risk the court saying, "Very clever. | No." | gowld wrote: | Corporate accounting is annindustry that only exist as | "clever hacks". It usually works, unless you are | politically out of favor. | mc32 wrote: | It was pretty transparent that they did that to circumvent | regulation. | | Imagine Coca-Cola getting clearance for importing coca | leaves for flavoring but then instead sells it to a third | party who processes it for something else. | notch656a wrote: | Am I the only one that sees no problem with that? Why the | hell should coca-cola be responsible for what someone | else does with coca leaves? | tshaddox wrote: | > Customs & Border Protection should have absolutely no | jurisdiction over what an item is used for once it enters | the country. | | I mean, that's the whole point of the import tariff law, so | if the CBP has jurisdiction to enforce tariff law, surely | how the item is used (or at least _how the item is intended | to be used_ or _how the item can reasonably be expected to | be used_ ) is the primary factor to consider. | RC_ITR wrote: | It also goes to show how corrupt the import tax system is. | | Why SHOULD a cargo van have higher import taxes than a | passenger van, other than to serve the needs of some random | private company? | | Even moreso, I wouldn't be surprised if Ford lobbied FOR | those laws before changing its mind in where to produce a | particular sku | nickff wrote: | > _" Why SHOULD a cargo van have higher import taxes than | a passenger van, other than to serve the needs of some | random private company?"_ | | Have you read a tariff schedule? They're full of this | stuff, which seem to be protections or favors for | specific industries. Anti-dumping protections seem | similar. | RC_ITR wrote: | >It also goes to show how corrupt the import tax system | is. | nickff wrote: | I am not sure it is 'corrupt', though that may be a | question of semantics. I didn't mean to disagree with | you, just point out how rampant the issue was. | colejohnson66 wrote: | No lobbying involved. It's the remnants of a tariff war | with France and Germany: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax | RC_ITR wrote: | The Chicken Wars brought the powerful agricultural lobby | in France into direct conflict with the powerful | agricultural lobby in the United States. Not | surprisingly, France, the largest poultry producer in the | EEC, was unwilling to embrace a free trade policy whose | benefits would be spread among consumers throughout | Europe. The benefits of protectionism were concentrated | in France and the costs were borne by consumers | throughout Europe. Indeed, the stakes were sufficiently | high that France might have quit the EEC had not French | agricultural interests been appeased. | | That's from the 'further reading' link on Wikipedia. | colejohnson66 wrote: | Yes, but I meant lobbying from Ford for said tariff as | you suggested. | RC_ITR wrote: | At the same time, the U.S. auto industry was suffering | its own trade crisis due to competition from growingly | popular foreign cars and trucks. During the early 1960s, | sales of Volkswagens surged as America's love affair with | the iconic VW "Bug" coupe and Type 2 van shifted into | overdrive. By 1963, the situation got so bad that Walter | Reuther, president of the United Automobile Workers Union | (U.A.W.), threatened a strike that would have halted all | U.S. auto production just before the 1964 presidential | election. | | Running for reelection and aware of the influence the | U.A.W. had in Congress and in the minds of voters, | President Johnson looked for a way to persuade Reuther's | union not to strike and to support his "Great Society" | civil rights agenda. Johnson succeeded on both counts by | agreeing to include light trucks in the Chicken Tax. | | While U.S. tariffs on other Chicken Tax items have since | been rescinded, lobbying efforts by the U.A.W. have kept | the tariff on light trucks and utility vans alive. As a | result, American-made trucks still dominate sales in the | U.S., and some very desirable trucks, like the high-end | Australian-made Volkswagen Amorak, are not sold in the | United States. | | https://www.thoughtco.com/chicken-tax-4159747 | e4e78a06 wrote: | "American-made" = all the labor-intensive parts are made | abroad and only the final car is assembled in the US. The | USMCA merely requires that a majority or plurality | (depending on the item) of item content come from a | member nation. | | If there was a war American industry would shut down | overnight. | vilaca wrote: | > benefits would be spread among consumers throughout | Europe | | The EU has banned poultry meat from the US on | psytosanitary grounds for more than two decades. | Jon_Lowtek wrote: | Which is a lot younger than the chicken tax from the | 1960s | | For some context: it is about washing chicken meat with | chlorine dioxide to kill bacteria, especially salmonella, | at the slaughterhouse. It may seem ridicoulous that | europeans prefer salmonella to chlorine on their | chickens, but european food health and safety argues that | the practice is needed in the USA due to the very | unsanitary, and therefor cheaper, chicken meat | production, whereas europa requires high standards during | production instead of washing the end product in | chlorine, and is therefore more costly. Some argue this | cost difference is the major driver of the ban, and it is | not an actual health and safety issue. | w0mbat wrote: | The US also has more lax rules than Europe has governing | what food chickens can be fed. Without going into the | rather revolting details, this is a legitimate reason to | exclude US chicken. | jrockway wrote: | It sounds like the age-old market segmentation thing. | People driving their kids to soccer practice don't make | money with their vans, so they'll notice the higher price | (and if they find out their congresscritter was | responsible, they'll vote for a different one). | Meanwhile, cargo vans are used to make money, so the | users can bear the extra cost. There's also overtones of | taxation without representation going on here; | individuals can vote, and so they have lower taxes than | businesses, which can't vote. (It's too bad that Ford | doesn't dump the seats they take out of the van into | Boston Harbor! Someone would probably still get the | reference.) | | It's the same game that SaaS companies play. Everything | is free until you want SSO, then it's $30,000 a year. If | you need SSO, you can afford it. | | Personally, I hate this in both cases. I think we could | save everyone a lot of time if every vendor you did | business with just grabbed you by the ankles and flipped | you upside down and took whatever money fell out of your | pocket. Why tiptoe around what they really want... | gowld wrote: | Would you prefer that only rich people could buy things? | Without price discrimination, the market clearing price | is higher. | titusjohnson wrote: | > There's also overtones of taxation without | representation going on here; individuals can vote, and | so they have lower taxes than businesses, which can't | vote. | | I'm confused about this statement. Businesses are | comprised of individuals, and those individuals (if | citizens) can vote. So the business has a vote through | the voice of its employees and representation in | government through the people employees at a business. | | Or are you saying the legal fiction of business | personhood should give the business a ... vote? That just | sounds like business owners (individuals) getting 2 or | more votes then... | slt2021 wrote: | maybe businesses can't vote, but they can buy votes of | the congressmen directly. | | why go through the hassle of voting and deal with | uncertainty whether you voted a right person, when you | can just buy with cash whatever law/regulation you need | NoboruWataya wrote: | > Or are you saying the legal fiction of business | personhood should give the business a ... vote? That just | sounds like business owners (individuals) getting 2 or | more votes then... | | I believe the more common proposal is to resolve the | contradiction the other way: remove taxes on | corporations, as the individuals comprising the | corporations generally already pay taxes. That would be | politically quite unpopular, but there is a certain logic | to it and it would also make taxes easier to administer | and more difficult to avoid. And it doesn't need to be as | pro-rich as it sounds - you could just replace | corporation taxes with other taxes targeting wealthy | individuals, such as a wealth tax or higher income taxes. | db65edfc7996 wrote: | Planet Money did[0] a story about the Chicken Tax. | | [0] https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/01/25/511663527/e | pis... | [deleted] | [deleted] | Johnny555 wrote: | Oddly, the Subaru Baja is much more car-like than the Brat ever | was (the Baja has 4 real seats, not jump seats), but when I had | one, it was registered as a pickup, not a car. | njarboe wrote: | The "truck" (trucks, SUVs etc) class of vehicles in the US | have lower average gas mileage requirements than cars so many | cars are made just large enough to be classified as "trucks" | even though they are marketed still as cars. Subaru did this | with almost all their cars back in 2004[1]. | | [1]https://web.archive.org/web/20210609082852/https://www.nyt | im... | fredoralive wrote: | Recently in Europe we had a kinda reverse - Suzuki removed the | rear seats of the Jimny, a small 4x4, to reclassify it as a | commercial vehicle to qualify for laxer CO2 emission standards. | bitL wrote: | Yeah, but they also really dumbed down the interior and | lowered roof quality, while selling it for the same MSRP as | the previous model (still + 10k from the actual sellers, | bringing it to Toyota RAV4 territory price-wise). | fredoralive wrote: | Ouch, I think I'd seen something about them swapping to | steel wheels instead of alloys, but I didn't realise it had | generally been downgraded. And that price... | | Pity, as I kinda like the Jimny even if it makes no sense | at all for me to own one. | tablespoon wrote: | > This reminds me of the Subaru BRAT in the early '80s. There | was a 25% tarrif on imported pickups. | | Isn't that tariff still in place? | | It seems like they're smarter with the enforcement, so tricks | like that don't work anymore: | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax | | > The U.S. Customs Service changed vehicle classifications in | 1989, automatically relegating two-door SUVs to light-truck | status.[4] Toyota Motor Corp., Nissan Motor Co., Suzuki | (through a joint venture with GM), and Honda Motor Co. | eventually built assembly plants in the U.S. and Canada in | response to the tariff.[1]... | | > Customs and Border Protection (CBP) ruled in 2013 that | Transit Connects imported by Ford as passenger wagons and later | converted into cargo vans should be subject to the 25% duty | rate applicable to vans and not to the 2.5% rate applicable to | passenger vehicles. Ford sued and finally, in 2020, the Supreme | Court declined to hear the case which confirmed the position of | CBP.[22] | fooey wrote: | A seafood company in Canada has a 100 foot section of train | track, where they load trucks on and right back off, in an | attempt to get around the Jones Act requirement that goods | shipped between 2 points in the US must use US flagged vessels | | https://www.adn.com/business-economy/2021/09/15/feds-accuse-... | mmcgaha wrote: | We need something like the senate filibuster debate rule for | taxes. Basically just state that there is this thing I can do | to skirt the tax system so I declare a tax evasion without | having to actually make people do stupid stuff. | [deleted] | stenl wrote: | Or maybe we need the opposite: basically just state that | you did this stupid stuff only to avoid the tax, so you | should pay the tax anyway. | version_five wrote: | The solution to a bad or poorly written law is not to | leave it on the books and have some "oh well we actually | meant" thing that means it can be arbitrarily applied in | a different way than written. | | Courts can interpret laws if the interpretation is the | problem. If there is just a stupid loophole, then either | the law itself makes no sense (as seems to apply to this | Jones Act) or it needs to be reworded to align with its | intent. | | This reminds me of all the california electricity | deregulation games where Enron et al moved power out of | state and back, or had plants go down strategically for | maintenance in order to gain the system. The correct | solution is not to say "play nice, you know what we | meant". It's to have a consistent and enforceable set of | rules that dont admit gaming. | ggrrhh_ta wrote: | Laws, at least in many European countries, are prefaced | with a preamble, introduction, or Vorwort, that explains | a bit of the history, the motivation, the underlying | principles, the philosophy, the practicality, and the | guidelines for interpretation of that law. The words, as | written, are not to be taken, in any case literally. | Moreover, a literal interpretation contradicting the | spirit of the law is unlawful, and that is one of the | principles of many legal systems. Using a loophole that | contradicts the law is unlawful; imagine the law says you | have the right to water your plants in your balcony; | however, you only do it when the neighbor below is | sitting at their balcony with the intention to bother | them: you are abusing the law and committing an unlawful | act. | BizarroLand wrote: | A law system like that requires wisdom. America has a lot | of smart but almost no wisdom, so it would be chaos and | anarchy if we suddenly switched to such a system. | [deleted] | gamblor956 wrote: | You're being downvoted but that's actually how tax works | in the U.S. and Europe. | | Tax is one of the few areas of law where activities can | be declared illegal and subject to punitive sanction | after the fact. For example, the fictive loss tax shelter | scheme that was popular 15 years ago. Fictive losses were | technically legal at the time the scheme began (in the | sense that they were legal within the letter of the law | but violated the intent of the law), and weren't | explicitly stated to be illegal until years later | (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenkens_%26_Gilchrist). | BolexNOLA wrote: | That defeats the purpose of the law. If they're flagrantly | violating the spirit and intent by _barely_ passing the | technical requirement, then the law should either A) be | removed or B) retooled to address the loophole. | | We should never encourage ignoring certain laws or it | undermines the whole system. It's why I don't support | states legalizing weed under the federal government's | nose/while they turn a blind eye. Sure, we like it for | weed, but what happens when a super conservative state does | something less popular like, say, functionally bans gay | marriage and goes, "well you aren't enforcing drug laws, | why should they get a pass but not us?" | | I'm sure there are better examples but hopefully I'm | getting my point across. Exceptions = weakening of the | established structure. I don't know about you, but I like | that "the law is king" in the US. Mostly because we can | change them. | sneak wrote: | > _That defeats the purpose of the law. If they're | flagrantly violating the spirit and intent by barely | passing the technical requirement, then the law should | either A) be removed or B) retooled to address the | loophole._ | | Yes, indeed. It completely defeats the purpose of the | law, which is why the suggestion is akin to your A | solution (that it should be invalidated/removed). | | The law doesn't encode "purpose" or "spirit", the law | only exists as written. When applying the law, and tax | law especially, it's counterproductive to speculate as to | "spirit" or "purpose", and best to focus just on _what | the law actually is_ , because that's the only part that | really counts as "democratic". Intentions and ideals | weren't voted on, the actual literal text of the law was. | vineyardmike wrote: | > but what happens when a super conservative state does | something less popular | | Or like abortion. The new abortion rules in conservative | states are betting they can sway the federal gov if a | lawsuit arises, but its based on the assumption they'll | get to ignore the gov. | spiffytech wrote: | > what happens when a super conservative state does | something less popular like, say, functionally bans gay | marriage | | That happened in North Carolina (albeit before weed | legalization had gained momentum): | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Carolina_Amendment_1 | BolexNOLA wrote: | Luckily it was shot down, but yeah, my concern is the | serious precedent weed legalization is setting. I like | the outcome, I am scared of the precedent. | Spooky23 wrote: | Ford was doing this a couple of years ago with their small | van... the Transit Connect (iirc). | | They would import from Europe with seats, but remove the seats | at the port and ship them right back. | aaaaaaaaaaab wrote: | Almost. The back seats were actually shredded. | ninly wrote: | Its reputation is eternal: | http://achewood.com/index.php?date=12012003 | Lammy wrote: | Should have stuck with the 1978 Volvo 244GLE | http://achewood.com/?date=05102005 | magicalhippo wrote: | Here in Norway we have the infamous "E6 ham". We have an import | tax on dry-cured ham[1], but not unprocessed meat. | | Someone figured out it was cheaper then to import unprocessed | meat from Spain to Norway, turn the truck around as soon as | they were customs cleared and drive the 3000 km or so back to | Spain for curing. | | Once cured they'd re-import the processed meat, which now has a | different tariff due to being "Norwegian" ham processed abroad, | while still being proper Spanish dry-cured ham. | | So a ~6000 km (3700 miles) detour to save on import taxes, | yay... | | The name comes from the E6 route[2] the trucks drive through | Sweden and into Norway. | | [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ham#Dry-cured | | [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_route_E6 | Hello71 wrote: | source? upon searching for "e6 ham", "norway ham tax", "e6 | skinke" etc found only this post. | danielfoster wrote: | Not everything is on the Internet. | jonnycomputer wrote: | Heathen! | actually_a_dog wrote: | I guess it's not that "infamous," then, is it? | Cederfjard wrote: | Quick search found this, from the Norwegian Broadcasting | Corporation in 2014: https://www.nrk.no/norge/ellevill- | skinkereise-1.11613122 | | Translated: https://www-nrk- | no.translate.goog/norge/ellevill-skinkereise... | kgc wrote: | Maybe they could just send an NFT of the meat to save on | transport costs. | hedgehog wrote: | This kind of thing is apparently pretty common. The two that I | know of are shoes -> slippers by adding fabric to the bottom | and European manufactured vans being imported to the US as | passenger vehicles and then converted to cargo after arrival. | genezeta wrote: | > _The CPC472 itself was sold for how many? pesetas (how many? | euros)_ | | As far as I can remember, the CPC472 was sold for the same price | as the CPC464. It was never marketed as an actual improvement | over the 464 and competition in the market was hard enough to be | able to justify a higher price without a clear justification. | | Then again my memory is not that good now so anyone feel free to | correct me. | xtracto wrote: | This was a pretty interesting read. I had to stretch my Google-fu | muscles, but I was able to find the original Spanish import tax | law from 1985: | | https://www.boe.es/diario_boe/txt.php?id=BOE-A-1985-18847 (Google | translation below) | | From here: https://www.zonadepruebas.com/viewtopic.php?t=1830 | | It's funny that they explicitly set the number of RAM KB for | machines. I wonder what was the logic? | | --- | | BY ROYAL DECREE 1215/1985, OF JULY 17, A MODIFICATION HAS BEEN | INTRODUCED IN THE TARIFF DUTY ASSIGNED TO SUBHEADING 84.53.B.II | OF THE CUSTOMS TARIFF, CONSISTING OF SETTING A SPECIFIC MINIMUM | DUTY OF 15,000 PESETAS PER UNIT. | | THE BROAD CONTENT OF THE REFERENCE SUBHEADING, IN WHICH DIFFERENT | ELECTRONIC COMPUTER PRODUCTS ARE CLASSIFIED AND TAKING INTO | ACCOUNT THAT THE MENTIONED SPECIFIC MINIMUM SHOULD ONLY AFFECT A | CERTAIN TYPE OF AUTOMATIC MACHINES FOR THE PROCESSING OF | INFORMATION, KNOWN SECTORALLY UNDER THE THE NAME OF | "MICROCOMPUTERS", MAKES IT ADVISABLE TO COMPLEMENT THE CITED | MODIFICATION WITH THE TIMELY CLARIFICATION LIMITING ITS SCOPE. | | BY VIRTUE OF IT, AND IN USE OF THE POWER RECOGNIZED TO THE | GOVERNMENT BY ARTICLE 6 SECTION 4 OF THE CURRENT TARIFF LAW, AT | THE PROPOSAL OF THE MINISTER OF ECONOMY AND FINANCE, AND PRIOR | APPROVAL BY THE COUNCIL OF MINISTERS OF AUGUST 28, 1985, I HAVE : | | ARTICLE 1. FOR THE PURPOSES OF THE APPLICATION OF THE SPECIFIC | MINIMUM RIGHT OF 15,000 PESETAS PER UNIT INTRODUCED IN SUBHEADING | 84.53.B.II OF THE CUSTOMS TARIFF BY ROYAL DECREE 1215/1985, OF | JULY 17, IT SHALL BE UNDERSTOOD BY TAXABLE UNIT AFFECTED BY THE | CITED RIGHT THOSE AUTOMATIC MACHINES FOR PROCESSING INFORMATION | THAT CONSIST OF INTEGRATED OPERATIONAL UNITS, WHICH COMPRISE IN A | SINGLE ENVELOPE AT LEAST ONE CENTRAL UNIT AND ONE INPUT UNIT, | WHETHER OR NOT PROVIDED WITH AN OUTPUT UNIT, AND WHICH HAVE RAM | MEMORY WITH CAPACITY NOT EXCEEDING 64 KB. | | ART. 2. WITHOUT PREJUDICE TO ITS EFFECTIVENESS FROM JULY 25, DATE | OF PUBLICATION OF ROYAL DECREE 1215/1985, THIS ROYAL DECREE WILL | ENTER INTO FORCE THE SAME DAY OF ITS PUBLICATION IN THE "OFFICIAL | STATE GAZETTE". | | GIVEN IN PALMA DE MALLORCA ON AUGUST 28, 1985.-JUAN CARLOS R.-THE | MINISTER OF ECONOMY AND TREASURY, CARLOS SOLCHAGA CATALAN. | PaywallBuster wrote: | https://archive.is/pjTzl ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-01-20 23:00 UTC)