[HN Gopher] A UX designer walks into a Tesla Bar
___________________________________________________________________
A UX designer walks into a Tesla Bar
Author : radley
Score : 366 points
Date : 2022-01-30 20:55 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (jenson.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (jenson.org)
| matthewfcarlson wrote:
| I'll chime in on this thread that as a model Y owner, I quite
| like the v11 update. Yes the defroster is annoying and the user
| profile thing is quite annoying. But it also fixed some things
| that drove me nuts.
| contravariant wrote:
| I think both are a bit cluttered, but at least the first one
| contains useful icons.
|
| What on earth do those 4 icons in the middle of the new UI even
| mean? My best guess of their meanings is "Phone, Audio, Radar,
| More" but that doesn't seem right. Also how am I supposed to know
| that "random number" refers to temperature?
| duxup wrote:
| For a moment I thought one was an RSS feed...
| floatingatoll wrote:
| I hope they filed an NHTSA complaint, as they're describing a
| software update that will increase the risk of collisions,
| injuries, and/or deaths if left uncorrected.
|
| US Tesla owners, if your Tesla is affected by this issue, and you
| believe that removing the one-tap defroster button is a safety
| risk to your driving, please report that ASAP:
| https://www.nhtsa.gov/report-a-safety-problem
| kuboble wrote:
| Is this update also happening in Europe? I would assume that
| there is a certain legal minimum of actions that have to be
| accessible to a driver via universally recognizable icon.
| Literally every car I ever saw have this defrost button, anti-fog
| lights, emergency lights, etc. I have a hard time believing the
| safety car features hidden somewhere in menu would pass Eu car
| regulations.
| mavu wrote:
| The problem starts even earlier.
|
| Touchscreens (or touch surfaces) should not be used for any kind
| of vehicle function. period.
|
| If you need to take your eyes away from the road, it is a shit
| ui.
|
| If you can't feel but have to look to see the result of your
| interaction, it is a shit design.
|
| If you need to look at the center console and down, it is even
| worse.
|
| There is only one reason to get rid of all the buttons and
| switches, and that is design. because "ape goes ohhhh!".
|
| And that should not be a consideration that is prioritized over
| safety.
| runnerup wrote:
| Assuming vehicle manufacturers even need context switching
| (apparently they do...) I'd love to see an innovation to use OLED
| pushbuttons[0]. Some companies make these specifically for
| automotive applications even though I don't think any brands are
| using them at the moment.
|
| You can make the physical button/key show any icon you want, and
| it can change so you can have menu-style systems without losing
| the physical pushbuttons.
|
| 0: https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/nkk-
| switches/ISC1...
| floatingatoll wrote:
| Is the front defroster so significant a safety concern that it
| must _always_ be possible to activate with one touch
| /press/turn?
|
| If so, then Tesla would need to dedicate one such button to the
| front defroster regardless of menu state.
| Syonyk wrote:
| IMO, yes. Defrost behavior and timing is "serious business"
| in the car business.
|
| Not only is it specifically discussed in the vehicle
| regulations
| (https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/571.103), it has
| specific SAE standards for testing
| (https://www.sae.org/standards/content/j381_202006/).
|
| I don't know if any of them specifically require a certain
| number of presses or such - I've never had an "old style"
| knob climate system that would automatically turn the blower
| to max in the defrost position, though that certainly helps
| the process. But neither have I ever run into a vehicle where
| the functionality is actively hidden. Scan for the defrost
| logo, front and rear, interact with the proper controls. To
| _remove_ this obvious behavior from a car randomly speaks to
| an insane level of disconnect between the designers (who
| mostly operate on the concept of change for the sake of
| change, because any change makes it look new) and users (who,
| generally, would rather things stay where they were).
|
| I don't _care_ if my car UI wins international design awards
| for Excellence in Minimalism (ExMn) or something. I care that
| I can use it to make the various systems do what I want, or
| put them in a sane "Automatic" mode that then does
| reasonable things with them. And, further, I _very much do
| care_ that they don 't randomly change on me between trips in
| the vehicle.
| floatingatoll wrote:
| I'm not up for buying an SAE standard today so I hope
| someone else is, or already has it, and can do so for the
| discussion's sake :)
| cameldrv wrote:
| It's pretty important. The windshield will sometimes fog up
| suddenly while driving. The driver needs to utilize extra
| care and pay more attention looking out a partially fogged
| windshield at the exact moment that they are forced to go
| through menus in a touch screen.
| DanCarvajal wrote:
| GM has a sort of neat solution in the new Hummer, a row of
| physical buttons/switches directly below the screen.
| floatingatoll wrote:
| My car radio has this as well: I have dedicated volume knob
| with mute push, next and previous track buttons, and a Home
| button that takes the nav system to the Home Screen. It's
| minimum, sufficient, and I would really regret not having
| them.
| mft_ wrote:
| Honestly, I think this would be worse than Tesla's screen. The
| oft-repeated benefit of buttons is that they allow a kind-of
| muscle memory to build up - so you learn to change ccommonly-
| used settings without taking your eyes off the road.
|
| In contrast, this would offer tiny screens, presumably in
| locations even more distant (considering the range of locations
| buttons appear in typical cars) from the windscreen than the
| Tesla screen is, and by switching their purpose, you create the
| neceessity to examine them before pressing?
| Hamuko wrote:
| That depends entirely on whether or not they automatically
| switch between functions, or if you can manually switch them
| (like bookmark functions).
| FPGAhacker wrote:
| I think this sort of thing would be nice for replacing the
| Touch Bar on previous generation Macs with a row of changable
| keys.
|
| I don't think it solves the problem of touch screens in cars
| though. The benefit of dedicated physical buttons in a car
| isn't just that they are physical. It's that you can use them
| without having to look at them. If you don't know what the
| button does (because it's changeable) then you can no longer
| simply use it without looking.
|
| It's probably still better than a pure touch screen though.
| sideshowb wrote:
| This. I'd be pretty surprised if (among those here who drive
| their own car at least weekly) anyone takes their eyes off
| the road to press defrost, volume, next track, change fan
| speed, temperature etc
| dagmx wrote:
| Some vehicles do have hard buttons overlayed on top of the
| screen.
|
| The Range Rover evoque for example has a pushable wheel that
| sits on top of a screen (with a cutout in the center), so the
| part within the wheel will change based on the context.
|
| I think that's a really good middle ground.
| steele wrote:
| Holiday 2021 update regressed Tesla UI to Android 1
| mft_ wrote:
| I'm usually a defender of the single screen on the Model 3/Y, but
| on this, the author is right: the new UI (v11) is terrible
| compared to the previous one (v10).
|
| Not only does it hide commonly-used safety-relevant functions
| behind extra taps in sub-menus (as detailed), it was apparently
| done to free up space to offer a 'dock' of app buttons - three
| permanant and three 'recently used'. I struggled to choose three
| apps I needed enough to fill the permanant spaces - and certainly
| don't need quick access (when I'm driving!) to Netflix, or games,
| or whatever is popping up in 'recently used' today. I _would_
| like the driver profile menu to be quickly available, but alas
| that 's been hidden too.
|
| It's a total cluster-f*ck that makes no logical sense when
| considering the need of drivers, and I hope they listen and
| revert at least this aspect of the UI.
| thow-58d4e8b wrote:
| To add heaps of salt to the injury - automotive functions like
| seat heaters, defroster, wipers, energy usage, etc. - those
| cannot be pinned to the quick access bar. Only apps like
| Spotify, Netflix, browser,...
|
| It's a CAR, ffs! Tesla, please stop acting like it's a cell
| phone
| shrimpx wrote:
| "Data-driven UI design" can easily be myopic and sometimes
| disastrous. If you blindly follow the frequency of UI actions,
| you may hide seldom-used actions that are critical for safety
| in rare moments; or you may overly optimize for pro users and
| leave first-time users out in the cold.
| localhost wrote:
| I have a MX loaner while my MS is in the shop. It's telling
| (and I'm thankful for) that they didn't update the loaner to
| v11.
|
| Lots of hate on this TMC thread on v11 [1]
|
| [1] https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/v11-software-
| update-...
| MarcelOlsz wrote:
| >I'm usually a defender of the single screen on the Model 3/Y,
|
| Nothing on earth would convince me there is any necessity
| whatsoever to having a screen in your car, much less a
| touchscreen. But then again I'm also against power steering,
| ABS, and generally any and all electronics that obstruct
| feeling from the steering column. Don't even get me started on
| automatics. Cars for me ended in the 80's, everything after
| that has been gravy. I see Tesla as nothing but gravy.
|
| I'd be curious to hear why/how you defend it? I cannot think of
| a single benefit.
| pessimizer wrote:
| Irrelevant aside: "Gravy" usually means a nice bonus. Similar
| to "lagniappe," though I don't know why I'm explaining an
| idiom by mentioning a far more obscure idiom.
|
| As in: "I made all my money back in the first week,
| everything since has been gravy."
| MarcelOlsz wrote:
| Ah fair enough thanks. Gravy has always meant unnecessary
| bells and whistles to me/
| mrb wrote:
| Nothing on earth, really? The single most important necessity
| for having a screen in a car is to show the backup camera.
| mft_ wrote:
| I agree it's not a necessity, but I simply find that it works
| very well for me in practice, the vast majority of the time
| (current UI update aside).
|
| For example, this may not be common, but I find I can glance
| at the speed/car status section of the screen more quickly
| than I can glance down at a set of dials in the traditional
| position, and weirdly the sidways/down glance seems to retain
| more peripheral vision of the windscreen/road than the
| downwards glance to the traditional location.
| MarcelOlsz wrote:
| What's wrong with the center console with physical buttons?
| It's the same thing, except they never rearrange, and you
| get physical tactility.
|
| >(current UI update aside)
|
| One thing at least I'll never have to deal with is finding
| a brand new re-arranged center console in my Geo Metro the
| next morning!
|
| >but I find I can glance at the speed/car status section of
| the screen more quickly than I can glance down at a set of
| dials in the traditional position, and weirdly the
| sidways/down glance seems to retain more peripheral vision
| of the windscreen/road than the downwards glance to the
| traditional location.
|
| I think you just got used to it. Tesla adding a touch
| screen has not magically superseded the tens of millions of
| hours car designers put into interiors.
| mocmoc wrote:
| It's just horrible , I hate it it made the car worst
| t0mas88 wrote:
| What I really dislike about the "you don't own this, the cloud
| does" is apps changing without me having a say in it. Spotify
| is great, but if they decide they want a videoclip-playing-
| background then my phone at some random moment starts doing
| that. I feel like it takes some time / attention from me each
| time something like that happens because now I need to figure
| out how to turn it off or live with it. And I can't control
| when it happens, so I'm probably doing something else. This
| wasn't a thing let's say 15 years ago with the original iPod.
|
| Now imagine this happening to your car. I would sell the car as
| soon as possible. Cars, like ipods, are tools that should not
| require extra attention at random moments.
| ryanmarsh wrote:
| Updates are opt in. I wish I'd researched the v11 changes
| before upgrading though.
| bayindirh wrote:
| Regardless of the platform and device, updates are opt-in
| until a critical feature requires the latest version to
| even work (effectively deprecating the older versions).
| pcurve wrote:
| I'm sure the decision was "data driven" based on real life
| usage.
|
| It's a bit disturbing they're able to make such drastic level
| of changes without heads up.
|
| Can you imagine, taking your Honda Accord in for an oil change,
| and you find out that dealer completely re-arranged your center
| console?
|
| I wish more features tied to safety should be available via
| physical switches. Even Model 3 has a physical hazard light
| switch.
| rawland wrote:
| > Can you imagine, taking your Honda Accord in for an oil
| change, and you find out that dealer completely re-arranged
| your center console?
|
| That got me laughing. :) I would be _convinced_ it's a joke
| and my friends are behind this and want to give me a treat in
| already sucking Covid-times..
| NikolaNovak wrote:
| Tricky thing about "data driven" / behaviour observation is:
|
| App/icon X may be the most COMMONLY used one.
|
| But it doesn't necessarily make it the most IMPORTANT one,
| the one I need to reach in a hurry / most easily.
|
| I don't know how to capture, via automated telemetry, "this
| occasional button I REALLY REALLY need"... so it's just
| hubris then.
|
| I'm an outsider, I've only entered Tesla's as opposed to
| driven them, but the UX is such a _massive_ deal-breaker for
| this old grouch, it 's unbelievable. I wish it weren't so but
| c'est la vie.
| heleninboodler wrote:
| It's also subject to an unhealthy feedback loop. Oh, this
| button isn't commonly used, so let's move it to a slightly
| less prominent place. Oh, this button's usage dropped, it
| must be super unimportant, let's move it behind a menu. Oh,
| nobody ever presses this button, let's get rid of it.
| markus_zhang wrote:
| Think in terms of financial day trading, I always had a
| panic button that wired to the deepest dark pool to get out
| of the situation ASAP, even with a hefty cost.
| ptaipale wrote:
| Indeed. What is the largest button I have in my Renault's
| dash? It's the triangle-shaped hazard light switch. Do I
| ever use it? I hope not. Do I want it to be that big? Yes,
| I do.
| KennyBlanken wrote:
| > I'm sure the decision was "data driven" based on real life
| usage.
|
| You're assuming Tesla's end goal is to make the car more
| usable, and not to maximize revenue.
|
| Their goal is to be transportation smart TV. Sell apps,
| media, advertising, etc. That's why so much money is being
| poured into self-driving cars. Americans in particular spend
| a massive amount of time staring at pavement, and that
| represents a huge untapped market.
|
| Self-driving cars aren't about the betterment of humanity;
| the deaths and injuries are certainly horrific in scale, but
| self-driving cars don't solve the primary problem: our heavy
| use of low occupancy vehicle trips is not sustainable
| environmentally, energy-wise, land-use wise (roads or
| parking), logistically, economically (6+ year car loans,
| crumbling infrastructure because we can't afford to keep it
| all in good repair, etc)
| vitaflo wrote:
| >Even Model 3 has a physical hazard light switch.
|
| That's because a physical hazard light switch is required by
| law.
| gleenn wrote:
| The irony was it took me a lot longer to find because I was
| searching through the computer screen for a long time
| assuming it was there.
| pcurve wrote:
| And Tesla didn't help you by making too subtle. https://i
| .insider.com/5a861ac9d0307228108b466c?width=600&for...
|
| Compared this to Hyundai cars, who I don't think gets
| enough credit for their ergonomics.
|
| https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-
| content/uploads/2021/12/2022-...
|
| https://www.genesis.com/content/dam/genesis-p2/kr/assets/
| mod...
| dathinab wrote:
| The problem with "data driven" approaches is that they often
| miss the context.
|
| Which can make their results absolute garbage.
|
| Like data driven can tell you a button is "not used often" it
| can't tell you that a button is "essential to be fast
| available in some safety critical situations". (Or for other
| examples, that a feature is not unused because people don't
| want it but because it's hidden or bad designed.)
|
| But somehow I still meat people which believe that poorly
| data driven approaches will yield the best results, which as
| far as I can tell is complete unrealistic. (Which doesn't
| mean in any way you shouldn't also use data for decisions,
| just be aware that data just shows a part of an picture and
| can often be very misleading.)
| calvinmorrison wrote:
| you don't like your hazards hidden behind 3 submenus? you
| monster
| GrifMD wrote:
| Is it really hidden that deep?
| pedrocr wrote:
| By regulation (at least in Europe) that's a physical
| button, so is unchanged. But the point applies for fog
| lights for example. They used to be on the quick controls
| menu, which was already bad compared to physical buttons,
| and are now a further click away as if they're not
| something that you need to use while driving when
| suddenly entering a foggy area. The new UI is quite bad.
| TheSocialAndrew wrote:
| And I'm usually a defender of most interface updates, I know
| most people resist change especially when it impacts their
| muscle memory. But I think that change is good for the brain.
|
| That being said, the new interface is terrible. So many things
| now take 3 taps as opposed to one.
|
| I wonder if Tesla made the mistake of using A/B testing instead
| of vision-driven design like Apple. (Side note, just finished
| reading "Creative Selection" by Ken Kocienda of Apple, an
| interesting read on Apple's approach to design and why it is so
| successful as opposed to Google's).
| dmitriid wrote:
| > I know most people resist change especially when it impacts
| their muscle memory. But I think that change is good for the
| brain.
|
| In a car you want muscle memory, not "good for the brain"
| tartoran wrote:
| Thats why touch screen controls are bad for a car. At least
| for the main controls. A gps pannel is different but
| auxiliary to the main controls.
| cinntaile wrote:
| What did you think about the book?
| TheSocialAndrew wrote:
| It's a quick read and an interesting peek behind the
| curtain at Apple during the development of the iPhone, with
| a focus on designing elements like the keyboard and
| predictive text.
|
| What I took away from it is that the design decisions at
| Apple are in the hands of a few. The chain of command is
| small, it takes countless iterations until it "feels" right
| and you obviously can't consult with too many people when
| it's a secret project. A/B testing is out of the question.
| sschueller wrote:
| Interesting how a software update can make a car less safe
| without any option for the owner to go back.
|
| Sadly we see such things more and more. For example a 3 year
| old TV looses apps such as Netflix or Skype which where
| specifically advertised on the box.
| GeorgeTirebiter wrote:
| To me, it's difficult to believe this is legal. Compare with:
| FCC Certification. If you change something that could affect
| the 'intentional emitters' in your product, you need to re-
| certify!
|
| There ought to be an option to 'stay' at any 'version' you
| want. Only permit bug fixes. You know, LTS....
| pedrocr wrote:
| There is no rollback but you can stay at whatever version
| you want. No bugfixes either though, although that's
| similar to other manufacturers.
|
| Tesla software updates have in general been good with some
| setbacks. So the model still seems definitely better than
| what the industry usually does. A rollback option would be
| nice as this update shows. It would also give them some
| extra data on what people actually think of the updates.
| sen wrote:
| It's not legal in Australia at least. It would make you
| eligible for a full refund no matter how old the product
| is. I've used this law to return various things that got
| software updates that removed or significantly changed
| advertised features.
|
| Doing it with a car is a whole different level though. I'm
| pretty sure it'd still fall under the same laws but
| returning cars is very tricky even when you have a legal
| reason.
| pa7ch wrote:
| I too think the single screen is great for simplicity and
| making the cost of features I don't care about (many) low
| because they can just be buried in a sub-menu.
|
| Tesla UI has always seemed pretty terrible to me though. Their
| use of space, and insistence that you need to see a photo
| realistic picture of the car you are driving that takes up a
| massive amount of real estate is crazy to me.
|
| On the other hand, I find a lot of car companies struggle with
| UI once screens come into play.
| daniel-cussen wrote:
| Screens are hard. When I made http://www.skylinesort.com, it
| was a challenge getting everything symmetrical at all screen
| sizes for the whole animation.
| Farbklex wrote:
| I am so annoyed by UI updates in general that this allone would
| be a reason to not buy a Tesla. I rather stick to real buttons in
| a car.
| fortran77 wrote:
| My husband just upgraded his P100D to a "Plaid" so I took the
| P100D as a hand-me-down instead of us trading it in or selling
| it. I had been driving a "Volt" and was happy with it.
|
| This is the first car, in my 42 years of driving (I'm 59) that I
| had to read the manual and "study" the UI before I could use it.
| And I still have trouble adjusting the temperature, etc, while
| I'm driving. It's way too confusing. I suppose I'll get used to
| it, but it's too much time with my eyes away from the road.
|
| If I say anything about this to Tesla "true believers" (or even
| the folks on Hacker News!) it's always my fault.
| floatingatoll wrote:
| It's not your fault. I find Teslas so confusing that I am
| visibly anxious to approach them and ride in them as a
| passenger. In an emergency, I would rather land a plane than
| try to operate a Tesla.
| tyingq wrote:
| The Tesla that crashed in The Woodlands, Texas, is
| frightening in this respect. It seems like the occupants
| couldn't figure out the manual/emergency door latches, and so
| died in the battery fire.
| servercobra wrote:
| For what it's worth, I often use the voice interface for a lot
| of things like temperature. I don't want to take my eyes off
| the road to turn the temperature up. Now, that comes with
| caveats (needs data connection, ugh), but I generally prefer
| that to my old car with physical buttons for temp now.
| fortran77 wrote:
| I need to get comfortable with that. I see other Tesla
| drivers doing everything that way.
| MBCook wrote:
| But that should be a choice, not sort of forced on you by bad
| design.
| gkop wrote:
| I'm as big a Tesla hater as anyone, but you should know this is
| pervasive with new cars. My 2021 Outback for example has
| garbage UI, plus lots of smart features, so also has a steep
| learning curve.
| jiggawatts wrote:
| This is the key point:
|
| > It's the context and the severe consequences that make it far
| more impactful than a poorly designed phone app.
|
| Tesla is making their "two ton death machines" (to quote Elon
| himself) _even more dangerous_ by making the controls
| unintuitive.
|
| The "yoke" is what turned me off ever buying a Tesla motor
| vehicle. The designers have been allowed to run rampant, with
| nobody keeping their "experimental interfaces" in check.
|
| I'll wait until Toyota makes an all-electric car. It'll be
| simpler, cheaper, and "just work" in the sense that I won't have
| to hunt around for basic controls just because some dingbat in
| California thought it made the dash look "cleaner" or whatever.
| wffurr wrote:
| Every time I think I ought to test drive a Tesla in order to do
| my due diligence for an electric car, I read another thing like
| this. Or it's autopilot crashing again. Or more reliability
| issues.
|
| I think I will hold out for a more traditional design. My Bolt's
| touchscreen isn't terribly obnoxious, and it still has physical
| controls for a lot of things, including the defroster.
|
| If only it could charge faster on road trips, max is 50 kW.
| Typical is 40.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| The Bolt also has CarPlay. That's a pretty significant
| advantage IMO.
| MBCook wrote:
| I believe basically every electric car coming out has that
| except for Tesla.
| geerlingguy wrote:
| Almost every new _car_ has that except for Tesla, these
| days.
|
| (I wish it were easier to retrofit in my 2008 Camry...)
| dwighttk wrote:
| Best Buy has receivers starting at $260
| sanj wrote:
| I fit it into my 2009 Corolla and a 2010 RAV4.
|
| Ping me if you want more info.
| aduitsis wrote:
| Hello, honest question, can't you install an aftermarket
| car stereo that has CarPlay from any reputable
| manufacturer?
| rootusrootus wrote:
| Depends on the specific car (and frequently the trim
| level, as well). A lot of manufacturers have tightly
| integrated infotainment and you can't do a retrofit if
| nobody makes the right trim panel to allow it. Gone are
| the days when everyone used DIN or 2DIN.
| aduitsis wrote:
| I understand, the car my not have a (2)DIN slot. That's a
| definite regression. And very costly if your car stereo
| dies out of warranty I might add.
| ronnier wrote:
| I have 3 cars. One has carplay, and I have a Tesla... I'd a
| thousand times over prefer tesla's UI over carplay. It's
| easier to play Spotify music. The experience is a lot better.
| The maps are better. Those are the two things that matter
| most to me and it's lightyears better than car play.
| izacus wrote:
| How do you switch from PocketCasts podcast to Audible book
| and back to Spotify or YouTube Music audio on a Tesla
| screen?
|
| That's the main usecase for CarPlay for me.
| ronnier wrote:
| I don't. I just do one or the other. If I'm listening to
| podcasts then it'll play over bluetooth and I can control
| it with the onscreen controls. I don't jump back and
| forth between podcasts and spotify
| izacus wrote:
| This really doesn't sound like a better experience to me
| then. Especially since CarPlay doesn't exclude existing
| functionality on the car system.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| To each their own. I had a Tesla Model 3 Performance. The
| navigation was nice because of the big screen. Spotify
| never worked correctly for me (couldn't even see my
| playlists, for whatever reason).
|
| What Tesla doesn't do well is voice control, including text
| message integration. Like, in theory that exists, but the
| text message integration failed for me after a couple weeks
| and nothing I tried could make it work again.
|
| And no other apps supported by CarPlay, either. Things like
| Podcasts, different flavors of navigation apps, etc. You
| either get what Tesla offers, or nothing. Usually nothing.
|
| And it's not like you can't have _both_. Tesla fans are
| good at telling me why I shouldn 't want CarPlay, but
| that's just apologizing for Tesla. Other manufacturers
| offer CarPlay _in addition_ to their own infotainment. Both
| my non-Tesla cars even put their own app in the CarPlay
| interface to make it easy to navigate around.
| mft_ wrote:
| There's no harm in trying one. Outside of the minority of cars
| with reliability issues, they're great cars IMO - and that's
| coming from a life-long 'car person'. Once you learn to use it
| appropriately (as in, what it's capable and not capable of, and
| that you do need to stay engaged in the driving process despite
| it) even Autopilot is pretty useful too.
| 2muchcoffeeman wrote:
| > _Once you learn to use it appropriately_
|
| But we just want a normal car with an electric engine!
| mft_ wrote:
| I hear you, but many 'added value' features in a car need
| to be learned to some degree. You can just choose to drive
| to without these - and it's a good basic car if you do.
| ineedasername wrote:
| Yep, ditch all the shiny bells & whistles, autopilot,
| massive screen, etc., and in turn drop the price by $3k to
| $5k.
|
| But I'm not sure that's the market Tesla want to be in that
| market. Other automakers might get there though.
| practice9 wrote:
| You are not required to use the Autopilot though
| mey wrote:
| When I informed my spouse that there wasn't windshield
| wiper controls on the steering wheel stalks, she pretty
| much immediately struck Tesla from her future car purchase
| plans.
| mft_ wrote:
| The model 3 does have windshield wiper controls on the
| steering wheel stalks. I think it's only the few cars
| (new S, X?) with the new yoke that don't?
| Fatnino wrote:
| I think every other manufacturer already has an EV. I didn't
| check so there might be one or two that don't yet.
|
| In any case, go test drive one of those to see how you like
| EVs.
| wffurr wrote:
| My Bolt is a great car, just shorter range and slower
| charging than I would like.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| The one possible upside is that GM will have to keep
| subsidizing the price to make them competitive, which means
| $25K will be normal. For people who just want a runabout
| second car to do daily driving and never visit a gas
| station, the slow DC fast charging and 258 mile range isn't
| a deal killer.
|
| They do need to get the spontaneous combustion issue fixed,
| though.
| ineedasername wrote:
| Didn't Chevy have to issue a recall of all of the <= 2021
| models this past summer? During which they couldn't be
| parked inside, charged above 90%, or below a certain point
| (else there was a risk if fire.) I think some (all?) We're
| also supposed to park at least 50 ft away from a
| residential structure.
|
| A software update to address the issue nerfed battery life
| to 80%, though I think they've still promised to replace
| the batteries too.
|
| I'm sticking with ICE for a bit longer.
| mro_name wrote:
| be confident - an electric car has about the total-cost-of-
| ownership co2 footprint as a diesel (sic!). I ride a bike or go
| by foot. Rural germany, however.
| cure wrote:
| > an electric car has about the total-cost-of-ownership co2
| footprint as a diesel (sic!)
|
| That's nonsense, ICE propaganda which has been thoroughly
| debunked. Cf. https://energypost.eu/latest-data-shows-
| lifetime-emissions-o...
|
| > I ride a bike or go by foot
|
| Excellent! Can't be beat in terms of co2 footprint!
| speedgoose wrote:
| What is your source ? This is very much against what I read
| many times, unless you have the dirtiest electricity grid and
| the cleanest diesel production.
| alfor wrote:
| Actually they are about 10X safer that the average.
|
| - Tesla: 1 crash per 4.31 million miles
|
| - Ind/average: 1 crash per 0.48 million miles
| rootusrootus wrote:
| Apples, oranges, etc, by now we should be past spreading this
| kind of misinformation.
| speedgoose wrote:
| You mean kW (power) and not kWh (energy).
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| Scott Jenson is great. It's sad that he got so trolled.
|
| I hope the folks at Tesla paid attention. He's one of the top UX
| people in the world.
|
| His book, _The Simplicity Shift_ [0], was one of the seminal UX
| books in my career. I still use many of the insights that I
| gleaned from it.
|
| It's a real short read (and a free download, now). It was written
| when everyone was still using flip phones, and was very useful in
| doing a brutal UX triage.
|
| [0] https://jenson.org/The-Simplicity-Shift.pdf
| duxup wrote:
| It would really upset me if my car interface changed without my
| choice.
|
| I need to go places, not dork with a new UI.
| adhesive_wombat wrote:
| My Volvo has a panel screen. The defroster is still a button,
| thankfully, as that's crucial to be able to hit instantly. The
| rest of the climate control is behind a button on the screen and
| requires to look and see what it's doing. It's infuriating and
| actually feels pretty unsafe compared to twiddling a knob.
| Honestly I expected Volvo to do better.
| cmckn wrote:
| I drove a Tesla in December for the first time, too; but it was
| before this update.
|
| I wasn't blown away. I rented it for a medium-length road trip,
| and was looking forward to autopilot on the highway. I found the
| features really lack-luster and difficult to use. You had to
| enable separate autopilot features individually, and they
| constantly disengaged for various reasons. My newish Honda
| honestly provides more of an ~~autonomous~~ driving experience
| with just adaptive cruise control + lane-keep assist. The control
| center was surprisingly complex and obtuse, and I missed carplay.
|
| The experience made me really excited about buying something
| electric in the future, but I doubt it will be a Tesla.
| typon wrote:
| You probably can't rent one right now to try, but I purchased a
| Hyundai Ioniq 5 and I think this car is the one to convince
| drivers of the EV future. It's just futuristic enough to be
| interesting and fun and traditional enough to be safe and
| comfortable.
| [deleted]
| sanj wrote:
| I'll note that the head of UX at Tesla during this design's
| testing window had a _very_ short tenure there.
|
| Though it is unclear is they were at fault or just fallguy.
| Someone1234 wrote:
| I still remember the days when buttons were meant to look like
| buttons, and that was actually something we specifically aimed
| for and got [correctly] criticized on when we got it wrong.
|
| Back when Skeuomorphism was in vogue, it was far easier to train
| users to use computing devices. These days you "just have to
| know."
|
| And, no, it isn't _just_ Tesla. All the major tech companies have
| given up on usability (e.g. remember when Microsoft had a
| usability research lab and improved the products using lessons
| learned?).
| tgv wrote:
| But I don't drive an ipod at 70mi/hr.
| 58x14 wrote:
| Reminds me of Google's icon redesign. Is it just me, or does it
| feel inevitable for behemoth organizations to converge towards UX
| anti-patterns that sacrifice functionality for style?
| eloisant wrote:
| That, and companies that size have people with bullshit jobs
| who feel the need to do an unneeded "overhaul" for the sake of
| putting that in their achievement list and get a promotion.
| wilg wrote:
| The redesign is generally fine, but they definitely moved a few
| features to places that are less convenient. It's not a major
| issue for me, but I do find the climate controls more annoying
| now. They haven't done another update yet, so fingers crossed
| that they incorporate some of this feedback.
| tremon wrote:
| On the other hand, I'm one of those luddites that thinks that
| having to operate a touch screen while driving is by definition
| bad design. I dread the day when I can't operate my car by
| touch anymore, so the more people complain about these things,
| the better my chances when buying my next car.
| ok123456 wrote:
| Doesn't obfuscating the location of the defroster control run
| afoul of the NTSB safety regulations since a window defroster has
| been required safety equipment in all cars since the early 70s?
|
| Relevant statute: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/571.103
| floatingatoll wrote:
| Statute inherits from SAE J902A which costs $89 to read, so we
| don't know from the statue alone.
| ok123456 wrote:
| https://archive.org/details/gov.law.sae.j902a.1967/mode/2up
|
| Even if they don't explicitly say it has to be an obvious
| button on the dash, it's a huge liability changing how basic
| safety equipment is operated.
| userbinator wrote:
| That seems like it's more about how well the defroster
| should work, but says nothing about how it should be
| activated.
| alistairSH wrote:
| I'm airlifted there isn't more push back against all-touch
| interfaces in cars.
|
| Honda put a volume knob back on its 2021+ Ridgeline. Might not
| have been consumer feedback, but people hated the touch volume
| control in pre-21 models.
|
| I loathe having to navigate menus and screen to find basic
| functions. My Honda had touch radio, with access to some set-up
| options, but daily functions are physical buttons. I like it this
| way. I'll likely never buy a Tesla.
| vitaflo wrote:
| Hell, Honda put ALL the knobs, buttons and switches back into
| the new Civic. They've done a 180 on car controls because they
| realized everything being touch was bad.
| tartoran wrote:
| Good move on them. They probably realized they were
| destroying their own market and that they don't need to move
| fast and break things, other brands do that and if something
| comes out of it they can carefully copy it. The only reason I
| respect Tesla is for pushing hard on electric. Other than
| that their offer is not for everyone.
| userbinator wrote:
| "New! Fresh! Shiny! Modern!"
|
| UI is like fashion. Practical matters seem to be ignored, but
| it's desirable on novelty alone. I fully expect the trend to
| reverse once it becomes "old and boring".
|
| And, "airlifted"? I've not heard that expression before.
| krm01 wrote:
| I work on UX/UI for startups. Have both worked for big tech
| companies and have many designer friends in big Tech co's. The
| pattern I unfortunately see is that many of the larger firms
| somehow think they need dozens (a few cases: hundreds) of product
| designers who are all fiddling in the exact same interface. It's
| absolutely nuts.
|
| It becomes an internal battle of who finds a more clever way to
| present a design in a meeting to a product manager. I'm sure all
| of OP's complaints sounded like very clever solutions in
| meetings. But that's not where your users are.
|
| Please. Keep your design team to a minimum. Design is not like
| engineering. More designers working on a single piece of software
| is counter productive.
| zepearl wrote:
| > _Design is not like engineering._
|
| In many cases it should?
|
| I've seen initial versions of UIs having been created in a
| certain way because of multiple valid reasons (people that
| worked on it really put some thoughts into it), those reasons
| (priorities of fields, differentiation of informations, speed
| of entering data, overview of the data, ...) were never written
| anywhere => the next people that worked on it changed that
| because of any reason and the result was often worse - maybe by
| having guidelines/explanations associated to the UI (similar to
| what is done for the app's code) would avoid that.
| steelstraw wrote:
| Too many cooks in the kitchen.
| mortenjorck wrote:
| I think you're hitting on a real problem, but one that's
| slightly adjacent to what you describe. The size of the design
| team is correlated with, but not the cause of dysfunctional
| product and design management. A large team where
| responsibilities and ownership have clear delineation, and
| ideas are validated through research, shouldn't result in
| cleverness competitions.
| csours wrote:
| > "The problem isn't really that complicated: originally the
| defroster icon was visible on the bottom. With the latest
| December 2021 update it is now hidden behind the temperature
| indicator. Tapping the temperature brings up a sub-window with
| the defroster icon."
|
| Even after reading that, I had to look at the pictures again, and
| read the paragraph again to find where you are supposed to tap.
| When they simplified the UI, they also removed the degrees symbol
| and the fan.
|
| Seeing as how 60-70 are both reasonable temperatures in
| Fahrenheit and speeds in miles per hour, it is not at all clear
| at a glance what that number means.
|
| (Disclosure, I work for GM)
| MBCook wrote:
| I read the description and the whole article too.
|
| I don't think I would have EVER tapped on the temperature
| without reading about it somewhere.
|
| It doesn't look tappable, as the article says. It's not a
| common thing to tap on in other systems I'm aware of.
|
| I think the writer's guess of the car icon is excellent. That
| probably would have been my first guess too.
|
| (I've also never used a Tesla)
| mortenjorck wrote:
| _> When they simplified the UI, they also removed the degrees
| symbol and the fan._
|
| This, I believe, is the real point of failure. The value of
| reorganizing the icons into sub-menus can be debated, but some
| of the details that were removed in the course of this change
| appear to have been critical.
|
| There is a concept in UX design called "information scent" -
| the combination of spatial, contextual, and cultural cues that
| clue a user in to where they can find what they're looking for.
| Simply keeping the fan icon next to the temperature
| display/button might have been enough to make the mental
| connection for the OP (and likely countless others).
|
| Of course, this is the kind of thing that tends to shake out in
| user testing, and I'm very surprised that this appears not to
| have shown up in the testing I would assume Tesla must do with
| any change to the dashboard, certainly one this fundamental.
| Smoosh wrote:
| I somewhat disagree. My brain does not see a climate control
| button and think "that button which can control fan speed and
| cabin temperature probably also controls the weakly-related
| function of window demisting".
|
| I would have no trouble adapting one I knew, but I doubt that
| I would find it for myself. And relying upon users
| discovering where functions are located by randomly pressing
| buttons is a bad UX/interface for a vehicle IMO.
|
| EDIT: Or how about this one as in my 2000 model S4: http://ww
| w.2040-parts.com/_content/items/images/50/340150/00...
| masklinn wrote:
| > Seeing as how 60-70 are both reasonable temperatures in
| Fahrenheit and speeds in miles per hour, it is not at all clear
| at a glance what that number means.
|
| I would not even consider the speed being on the center console
| so I'd have assumed it would be the temperature either way.
|
| However in all the cars I've used that would either be
| completely inanimate (as affordance as it would be easy to hit
| when trying to increase or decrease the temperature), or it
| would lead to extended climate control configuration (e.g. vent
| speed, multi-zone temps, ...).
|
| I'd never think of looking for the defroster there though:
| while defrosting uses the same hardware as climate control
| (heating and vents), it's not actually the same function.
| borski wrote:
| What's funny is... the center screen is exactly where the
| speed is, as in the Model 3 there is no other screen. So this
| is a completely legitimate confusion.
|
| https://cdn.carbuzz.com/gallery-
| images/original/270000/800/2...
| [deleted]
| imglorp wrote:
| Can some UX person please splain me why hiding things behind
| menus is such a trend? Even if there is a fixed window and a ton
| of whitespace (like this car), everyone wants to hide most
| frequent click targets behind a hamburger or dot or gear or
| wrench icon somewhere. Why?
| avs733 wrote:
| I would say it isn't a user experience choice its an aesthetic
| choice. And if he UX team, or whoever is making these
| decisions, is prioritizing aesthetics over functionality than I
| really don't know what to say.
| thow-58d4e8b wrote:
| It's a manifestation of a much more sinister pattern -
| prioritizing first impressions over long-term considerations
| dmitriid wrote:
| Because it's really hard to design an interface with high
| information density. So the "designers" hide everything behind
| a menu and call it a day
| dusted wrote:
| It must be "clean" is what I've heard, and there's nothing
| cleaner than a big empty space with one single nondescript icon
| behind which everything has been carelessly thrown. The burger
| menu is a great example of this "pattern"
| f6v wrote:
| It's not enough that I see the burger on my iPad with plenty
| of room, I also sometimes see it on a desktop. God forbid the
| user be able to do what they want. Google cloud is my
| favorite example. For some reason they've hidden the button
| that starts the instance - one thing that you actually want
| to do. But at least the interface is "clean".
| jrockway wrote:
| I think it's a byproduct of splitting design and frontend
| engineering into different teams. The designers can't
| program, so use dedicated design tools to propose designs,
| whereas back in the day, the frontend engineer would just
| hack their proposal into the existing codebase and reviewers
| could play with the UI to see if they liked it. Now they just
| look at it over a zoom call and can only decide if they like
| how it looks. Clean looks better than "busy", but until you
| use it, you can't know if it's the right idea. Once the
| design is tossed over the wall to the frontend team, design
| docs are written, code is refactored, sprints are planned,
| story points are decided, retrospectives are written -- it's
| too expensive to change it, so you just live with the bad UI.
|
| I don't think society has figured out how to scale software
| development, we've only figured out how to employ more people
| for the same project.
| Nition wrote:
| Microsoft went the opposite way with the Ribbon, but then
| went the same way with the Windows 11 right-click menu.
| m3kw9 wrote:
| In the old days it's equivalent to moving the defrost button
| inside the coin box.
| mishkovski wrote:
| Most used controls should be behind physical buttons. Touchscreen
| UX in cars is terrible. Furthermore, it is a safety hazard.
| yalogin wrote:
| I fully agree. Hiding those icons is terrible. I would go a step
| further d say it's a safety issue. The defroster is usually
| needed very urgently in most cases. No one would expect the icon
| to be hidden and in the moment of need taking eyes off the road
| to find it could be dangerous.
| systemvoltage wrote:
| With hardware UI, no one is going to do an update and change it.
| This is what you get for the convenience of software-ui + over
| the air updates. You have very little control over the changes.
|
| You're going to have to take away my 2002 Toyota 4 Runner from my
| cold dead hands.
| scroot wrote:
| All these electric car companies putting everything into
| touchscreens is the height of stupidity. What's the first thing
| you're supposed to avoid when driving? Not everything needs to
| have the sheen of being hi-tech. Sometimes a knob or a switch is
| the best choice. Double true in cars.
| sayak wrote:
| I am very surprised by all the negative comments regarding the
| Tesla UI. To me if you have any sense of taste, Tesla is the only
| option for you. All the car UIs are awful. Cars today are almost
| as bad as phones were before the iPhone. Tesla's UI is not
| perfect by any means, but at least it's not disgusting like
| everyone's else.
| MBCook wrote:
| You can have the prettiest UI in the world but if it's not
| functional when you need it it's pointless.
| Karupan wrote:
| TheSocialAndrew wrote:
| You might be thinking of the UI as of a month ago. They've
| updated it last month and botched both the look and the
| experience, that's what this thread is mostly about.
| GoOnThenDoTell wrote:
| It might look pretty, but having used one for a few months now
| I'm pretty dissatisfied with the overall feel. Would prefer if
| they ripped the whole screen out and put a small clock in with
| some push buttons and dials
| endymi0n wrote:
| Thing is, it's not just Tesla. Old economy carmakers are taking a
| page from the playbook by now to skip to the front line -- and
| it's exactly the wrong one.
|
| Having driven the VW ID3 a few times, it's truly horrible in this
| regard.
|
| The climate settings (yes, including fast defrost!) are ,,not
| available" until the systems have booted up which takes forever.
|
| Auto-Hold as a critical driving feature which had a hardware
| button before took me (as an engineer) a whopping 10 minutes to
| find in the third page of a random submenu.
|
| The voice control is located as a touch-not-press button at the
| outer edge of a steering wheel so when (not if) you accidentally
| touch it in narrow turns, the confused useless voice blasts full
| volume at you while you're in the most complex driving situation.
|
| It's as nobody had driven or user tested their cars before.
|
| And here I am, an early technology adopter of two decades,
| feeling like an old man yelling I want my hardware buttons back.
| Eddy_Viscosity2 wrote:
| I want my buttons and knobs back for basic controls.
| maxkaplan wrote:
| I was lucky enough to also experience this insane UX nightmare.
| Driving in a snow storm unable to locate the defrost or tire
| pressure gauge is frustrating and dangerous.
| somenewaccount1 wrote:
| I'm a Tesla to and the new design is horrible UX.
|
| I hate to say it, but I think auto safety regulations will now
| have to incorporate basic interior functions as accepted e
| criteria. Corporations are too greedy and will compromise safety
| for money at any time (presumably app buttons could be a revenue
| stream, and that's why they want to promote it)
| rootusrootus wrote:
| PRNDL is regulated, so there's precedent for setting a minimum
| standard for UI.
| MBCook wrote:
| I would agree it should be regulated, along with quite a few
| other things around controls.
|
| But I seriously wonder if any of the legacy auto makers would
| do this. I feel like they're all way too conservative to do
| something this radical.
| belval wrote:
| Oh please like legacy automakers are resistant to implenting
| consumer hostile features to increase their revenues.
|
| https://techxplore.com/news/2021-05-ford-infotainment-
| screen...
| MBCook wrote:
| There's a difference between stupid money grubbing stuff
| (which they've all been looking at) and risking safety by
| hiding safety critical systems.
|
| I was referring to the later.
| drexlspivey wrote:
| I like how pretty much every post here contains multiple
| people asking for new regulations. Thank god the HN crowd is
| not in charge of legislation because soon everything would be
| illegal.
| MBCook wrote:
| Sorry but I have a pretty strong desire for regulations on
| things that could easily be safety critical.
|
| We have a lot of history in the US showing that's basically
| the only way to get/keep safety.
| floatingatoll wrote:
| They already do have to adhere to regulations of those
| functions:
|
| https://www.nhtsa.gov/interpretations/23055-2drn
|
| And pass the FMVSS 103 Windshield Defrosting And Defogging
| safety test:
|
| https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/documents/tp-103...
|
| Which specifically requires: photos of the instrument cluster
| to be filed. Has Tesla violated their certification by altering
| the instrument cluster without going through the appropriate
| 103 certification process?
|
| The document also inherits from SAE J902A, which I can't view
| as it costs money, even though it's US law. Does J902A require
| a button to always be present, such that use of submenus for
| said digital button would be illegal under federal law?
| stanzheng wrote:
| fan / owner? you missed a word "I'm a Tesla to and the new
| design is horrible UX."
| pantalaimon wrote:
| FSD has finally gained consciousness
| timando wrote:
| maybe the car has gained the ability to comment here.
| irthomasthomas wrote:
| >=If you have two buttons, there is a third 'object' created, the
| decision a user must make on which button to tap. This cognitive
| load is invisible and rarely discussed but it can be a real
| source of confusion.
|
| I was just making the same argument on a kde mailing list about
| the kburgermenu. Hiding the main menu that I've been using for 30
| years. It adds a lot of cognitive load, and you don't need to be
| a UX professional to feel it. And it is becoming fashionable now
| to drop the main menu altogether. Why, to save 10 pixels? It's
| cool to be sleek, stylish and unique. But not in dangerous
| machine interfaces. FFS. I even heard that Musk got rid of the
| yellow/black striped safety tape from his factories, because they
| didn't fit his aesthetic aspirations. And I honestly don't know
| if that is a myth or not. Given this latest evidence, it is
| believable.
|
| What is interesting is the fact that so much research, and
| expensive lessons in engineering and design are now ignore so
| easily. I wonder if it stems from a deeper societal phenomenon of
| denigrating the past? The younger generations, caricatured by the
| media as angry Greta Thumbergs, seem to have declared their
| undying enmity towards an generation they blame for their
| apocalyptic fate. So they also reject, instinctively, symbols of
| those people, the visible signs of the past, and the lessons
| handed down.
|
| This may be a meandering rant, but I do feel that there is a real
| problem in UX and UI that is hurting us all. And fixing that
| requires some questioning of the root causes. Why did we
| collectively forget good UI paradigms and accessibility best
| practices?
| abledon wrote:
| Its already a touchscreen... can you make it any more dangerous?
| YES! LETS ADD THE "..." icon to open a context menu!
| gambiting wrote:
| This is absolutely unacceptable. I wish the relevant regulatory
| body would pull out the type approval for all Teslas until this
| update is rolled back, it's that bad.
| floatingatoll wrote:
| If you own a Tesla, file an NHTSA complaint and say as much to
| them. They could well do so tomorrow if they can find
| sufficient rulings already on the books about this and enough
| legitimate owner complaints are filed.
| ocdtrekkie wrote:
| The fact that Teslas have been permitted on US roads at all
| since Autopilot rolled out is clear proof the regulatory body
| isn't functioning as it should.
|
| Teslas should be illegal on US roads until Autopilot is
| removed, renamed, and retooled, and significant oversight is
| put into place in Tesla's production and software release
| processes.
|
| Ten years after I bought it Toyota warned me about the
| possibility some third party service people might've installed
| an improper part which could cause a problem. Tesla sometimes
| ships their cars from the factory with pieces of wood in them
| they got at Home Depot.
|
| "Move fast and break things" is an absolutely intolerable
| attitude for a car manufacturer.
| shrimpx wrote:
| It's funny how much Elon trashes US regulatory agencies for
| interfering, when in fact that they let him do whatever he
| wants.
| maxdo wrote:
| Their application is also rather a downgrade. They promised
| fixes. Lets see. It's not super bad, but definitely a step back.
| "Data proven decision" is just an excuse.
|
| I didn't use defrost button for almost a year. Yesterday I had a
| snow storm and I wasn't able to find defrost function. It's
| appears you have to swipe up in climate settings of the app to
| see extra options. Why? Make it at least contextual. If I enable
| HI heat mode, suggest me these options if you think such option
| in hot countries is redundant, don't blame data.
|
| Now just imagine an owner is not millennial on Gen Z, they will
| never find this option.
|
| So with one simple update you turn them from proud tesla owners
| who heat up the car from snow from a warm sofa to a frustrated
| blocked by snow user. Even though the hardware is amazing.
| ourmandave wrote:
| _Now just imagine an owner is not millennial on Gen Z, they
| will never find this option._
|
| ::sigh::
| shimms wrote:
| v11 update was the straw that broke this Tesla owner's back. We
| just purchased a new EV from another manufacturer and are selling
| the Tesla.
|
| I'm _so_ glad there are an increasingly larger range of EVs to
| choose from. In Australia the choices are comparatively limited
| still, but more and more are becoming available. When we got our
| Tesla the choices were really Tesla or cars with really limited
| range.
|
| I used to think I'd get used to the touch screen and muscle
| memory would allow me to do things while driving easily. Hasn't
| happened - I use the steering wheel buttons for changing the
| temperature, but everything else requires taking my eyes off the
| road for too long.
|
| Test drove the new car and was surprised by how better physical
| buttons were. The cognitive load to drive it was so much less.
| After years of Tesla touch screen land, I think I'd forgotten how
| much easier and usable traditional interfaces are.
| yholio wrote:
| So not only that you need special training to ride the Tesla
| pony, but it's also objectively worse even for those who put in
| the effort. It's not even like switching to Dvorak, it's like
| switching to Qwerty in a world where everybody uses Dvorak.
| bearcobra wrote:
| I'm surprised more automakers haven't adopted something like an
| Elgato Stream Deck where physical buttons can be mapped to custom
| icons for each desired function. It seems like it would be much
| safer while also allowing for new changes as software updates
| happen
| pedalpete wrote:
| On a car with as much technology as Tesla has, is a defroster
| icon even necessary? Can't the car know the windows needs to be
| defogged/defrosted and just turn it on for the driver.
|
| This isn't like temperature, where somebody has a preference to
| see. Is my windshield clear of fog or ice? No? Turn on defroster.
| joshribakoff wrote:
| It does if you have the AC on "auto". There's also another UI
| element that displays "defogging limited by settings" if you
| make manual adjustments and it detects the need
| wackget wrote:
| The mere CONCEPT of a car manufacturer being able to push UI
| changes to the car that I drive is equally disgusting and
| terrifying. I will never, ever own a Tesla or any similar
| garbage.
| joshribakoff wrote:
| You have to pull the update, all that they push is an icon that
| shows up that you can click to download the update
| maxdo wrote:
| Not sure why it's the problem when update is an improvement.
| Lets say tesla pushed an update that let me schedule start
| charging and stop charging at a certain time. That saves me
| $600-800/a year. Or a special controls for noise of the car for
| kids. There are good examples and bad. Last tesla update is not
| good, even it's not horrible, and let you customize many
| things.
| LeoPanthera wrote:
| I own a Tesla, but the attitude of the Twitter/Tesla bros makes
| me ashamed that I do.
|
| They seem to genuinely think that mocking anyone who dare
| criticize the almighty Elon is a justifiable action. Instead, it
| makes them, and by extension all Tesla owners, look like
| children.
|
| I've had my Model X for a year, and so far it's been in service
| for a total of 14 days. Of the 18 (!) issues my car has, they've
| only managed to fix 8. (!!)
|
| And it's not because they're mysterious, complex problems. They
| _just don 't give a shit_. They pretend that obvious issues are
| normal, or blame software for hardware problems, anything they
| can do to get rid of me.
|
| I would never recommend a Tesla to anyone, now. I've never hated
| a car more.
| mentos wrote:
| Been working in UI for about 10 years now. Using my moms Tesla
| for the first time last year I had so many issues (chief among
| them is every icon is so small) and was tempted to write them
| down but assumed that Tesla must know and be working on it. Maybe
| not?
|
| Saw the last update hasn't addressed any of the foundational
| issues and now it seems it's created a few more.
|
| I think the UI needs a complete overhaul. Mood board for the new
| UI should be a fisher price toy.
| (https://www.mattel.com/products/rock-a-stack-gkw58)
| itisit wrote:
| I have zero tolerance for a dynamic UI in a situation that
| doesn't require it. Knowing how to do basic operations and what
| the state of the vehicle is should be, short of a recall, a one
| and done affair. Consistency/predictability and safety go hand in
| hand.
| trav4225 wrote:
| > These people know literally nothing about human perception
|
| I'm sure there's a legitimate way to interpret this statement,
| but it still made me scratch my head a bit. :-)
| dusted wrote:
| Fuck. Screens. In. Cars. I know my buttons and dials by heart, I
| reach and touch and control them without looking at them.
|
| I used to be able to fire off SMS messages on my phone while
| driving, without looking at the screen, because I knew my contact
| list and keyboards had that little dimple for feeling where 5 is
| (like your numpad does, if you're not too hipster to go without).
|
| Sure, sometimes I got it wrong and texted something weird or to
| the wrong person, but by far, it was successful. Maybe it's just
| me, but I've still not been successful in learning how to write
| on a touchscreen keyboard, sure, I can type a message or using
| that swipey kinda thing, but I still have to look where I'm
| touching, no tactility, it's terrible.
| iknowstuff wrote:
| This has been replaced by voice commands, dictation, and voice
| messages.
| u320 wrote:
| I'm 100% convinced this fad will pass and you will only see
| screen-only UIs in low-end cars. Premium cars will all have
| physical controls for the most important features.
| AceJohnny2 wrote:
| Tangentially, the tie-breaker that got me to buy a 2020 Ford
| Escape Hybrid over the competition in that size-range (2020
| Toyota RAV4, 2020 Honda CR-V) was on how much I liked its dash,
| and its smart choices of hard buttons vs touch-screen.
|
| I particularly liked that the Escape had hard play/back/next (and
| a screen off!) buttons, and good use of screen-space. The CR-V
| wastes precious screen-space to always-present app shortcuts, as
| well as precious dashboard vertical space _for just the volume
| /power button_. The RAV4 has a bunch of function shortcut
| physical buttons around the screen which I think are also a waste
| of space: once you're in Android Auto/Apple Carplay, there's
| little reason to go back to the car's apps.
|
| I think we're still in a pit of bad car dashboard design, after a
| precipitous fall into touchscreen madness. Tesla's the worst
| offender, but I'm pretty impressed by Ford's design.
|
| (for comparison of RAV4 vs CR-V, see dash photos in this article:
| https://www.garberhonda.com/blog/2020-vehicles/2020-honda-cr... )
| userbinator wrote:
| The manufacturer changing the UI of a car _after_ you bought it
| should be illegal or at least highly restricted.
|
| I think many of us have been incensed by UI changes in software
| we use for our daily work, and that's already bad enough; but
| IMHO this really crosses a line.
|
| There were jokes when Apple changed the scroll direction,
| comparing it to the steering wheel of a car suddenly working
| opposite to what everyone is used to; I'm not sure if it's
| possible to do that with a Tesla or other modern car, but it's
| disturbing that we seem to be headed down that path. What an
| absurd reality.
|
| The icons-only UI is also a huge regression; would it really take
| much extra effort to add a text label? I know people often
| mention localisation when it's brought up, but much of the world
| knows English, this is an American car sold in English-speaking
| regions, and changing the text in software is much easier than a
| separate part with different printing.
|
| (I drive a 50-year-old land yacht that's received many upgrades,
| but all under my control; so my perspective may be _slightly_
| biased...)
| eyelidlessness wrote:
| It's wild to me that:
|
| - this hasn't caused serious accidents (edit: which I've heard
| about)
|
| - for all of Tesla's (and other automakers') focus on automating
| driving, they haven't picked the much lower hanging--incredibly
| valuable--fruit of automating more non-driving tasks drivers
| must/likely will perform
|
| - availability of basic safety-related controls isn't regulated
| in a way that would have blocked this UI change
|
| - the touchscreen-ification of car controls hasn't attracted the
| same level of revolt and vitriol as has flat design on those same
| screens (guess what looks _and feels_ like a button?)
| PickledHotdog wrote:
| All of a sudden three sea shells doesn't seem so far fetched
| gorgoiler wrote:
| You will not see a finer example of climate control layout than
| the Audi TT Mk3:
|
| https://images.hgmsites.net/lrg/2018-audi-tt-coupe-2-0-tfsi-...
|
| Big knobs for varying things. Push them to toggle things.
| Important shortcuts -- the aforementioned defogger being one of
| them -- on the real buttons inbetween.
|
| Physically rotate the whole unit to control direction and a
| physical flow control switch for every vent to allow per-
| passenger comfort.
|
| Industrial design bliss.
| pcurve wrote:
| I love the design, but I personally find it less intuitive than
| conventional hvac controls like this, because Audi had to
| squeeze things into 3 circular LCDs.
|
| https://www.mazda3revolution.com/cdn-cgi/image/format=auto,o...
|
| But as a design guy, I think it's a beautiful design, and the
| one that doesn't make too much compromise with UX. I'd be happy
| to take either.
| csunbird wrote:
| While I am not a BMW fan, they got the interfaces almost
| close to perfect with their MINI Countryman cars. The screen
| is a touchscreen one, but, touchscreen is optional as there
| is a physical idrive controller, with shortcuts, and it works
| with carplay as well. All important stuff, defroster/AC/seat
| heaters are physical buttons! I love it.
|
| https://cdn.bimmertoday.de/wp-
| content/uploads/2016/10/2017-M...
|
| original article: https://www.bimmertoday.de/2016/10/25/mini-
| countryman-2017-f...
| pcurve wrote:
| I agree, that's a very intuitive interior layout. Within a
| minute, I've figured out the entire car, including steering
| controls. Thanks for sharing!
| Smoosh wrote:
| Those are very stylish, but for clarity I think I prefer this:
| https://www.prlog.org/11835905-audi-a3-climate-control-syste...
|
| which is a lot like my 2012 S4.
| dec0dedab0de wrote:
| I really want a cyber truck when they're available, and the lack
| of buttons is the only thing making me question it.
|
| Has anyone used an API or something to build physical buttons and
| knobs?
|
| I'm still mad at the lack of physical keyboards on smart phones.
| Sometimes it feels like every innovation of the last 15 years has
| been a step backwards.
| hamburglar wrote:
| I'm in the same boat. I've felt the author's panic when on the
| highway in a rental car with a shitty touchscreen UI and I
| can't imagine paying money for a car that forces that on me in
| the name of ... apps? I really want driving my car to be about
| driving my car, guys, not about what kind of bs you can fit on
| the screen while ignoring the basics.
|
| It is ironic to me that carmakers are so enamored with the
| smartphone experience that they want it to take over the
| dashboard, when we are explicitly disallowed from using them
| while driving for safety reasons.
| Syonyk wrote:
| > _Sometimes it feels like every innovation of the last 15
| years has been a step backwards._
|
| A step backwards, _for which party in the exchange_?
|
| The past 15 years have seen vastly huge improvements in the
| ability of user interfaces and such to collect widespread
| behavioral data that can be mined for prediction products! That
| you're upset with thus and such change, as noted by your
| interaction with the device and accelerometer data, is really
| important for better predicting what will sell to you!
|
| But, yes, the past 15 years have seen a turn of consumer tech
| against the consumer. Now, the question isn't (shouldn't be?)
| "What can this thing do for me?" - it's, "What am I giving up
| by using this thing?"
| GoOnThenDoTell wrote:
| I hope someone comes out with an aftermarket physical buttons
| panel for common operations
| [deleted]
| Hamuko wrote:
| The Model S is now what, 10 years old? If it hasn't happened
| now, I'm not that confident in someone making it.
| jpalomaki wrote:
| Slightly related, just saw on Youtube video about Model 3
| dashboard replacement which adds display behind the steering
| wheel. I was quite surprised to find out this kind of
| modifications exist and how well it seemed to fit there.
|
| Video: https://youtu.be/mQM8PH9VLI8
|
| Product page: https://the-evshop.com/products/integrated-
| dashboard-heads-u...
| borski wrote:
| This is exactly why I'm so happy that the Lucid Motors UX team
| decided to have a dedicated screen on the left side of the car
| for the most common controls; not to mention a few physical
| switches for HVAC, music, and cruise control.
|
| https://youtu.be/vxE4P85DSBw&t=2m
| Arch-TK wrote:
| On a tangentially related note. Do people really use the deFROST
| feature to deFOG their windows? If the fog is on the inside, turn
| on AC (note, this is not equivalent to saying "make your car
| cold"). The AC will reduce the humidity of the air and get rid of
| the fog (works quite quickly in my experience).
|
| P.S. I am of course aware that heating the windows will also get
| rid of the fog, it just seems like an unusual solution to me.
| mabbo wrote:
| I would be downright excited to go out and by a Tesla if I was
| allowed to pay a bit extra and have physical buttons to control
| things.
|
| I get that Tesla wants to save money, both in assembly costs and
| "lower cost = more potential buyers", but there has to be a large
| market of people who are willing to pay more for a more usable
| car.
| shrimpx wrote:
| Could third party manufacturers release products that replace
| the massive LCD screen with an interface that has the same
| physical footprint but is like, half glass and half knobs?
| Nition wrote:
| The new Volkswagen ID.3 has the same issue. Would be great if
| it had some more physical buttons (although it already has more
| than a Tesla).
| shrimpx wrote:
| It's crazy that "electric cars" == "buttons are replaced by
| touch screens". VW makes non-electric cars that have a lot
| more knobs, but in their electric offerings they have to
| flock with Tesla with an all-glass UI, for some reason. I
| wonder if it's driven by market research or mostly fear-
| based: "We might look outdated compared to Tesla, let's just
| do what they do."
| Nition wrote:
| Maybe the latter plus they also want to have a ton of
| features, which gets hard to fit into a traditional button
| layout. But there's no reason an electric car has to be
| high tech either.
| shrimpx wrote:
| Yeah, the concept of "high-tech" has been conceptually
| bundled with the electric engine type. I for one hope
| those get disentangled because the limit for "high-tech"
| cars looks like a shitty idiocratic dystopia.
| a-dub wrote:
| personally i have never been a fan of the aesthetics of large
| computer screens. i find that at home they tend to dominate a
| scene, and similarly this happens on the dashboards in teslas,
| which is a shame because they have some pretty nice design hiding
| behind that big hulking computer monitor.
|
| physical switches are best when on the go. a good example of this
| is the original ipod clickwheels (and even their touch sensitive
| replacements) which were way easier to operate in the car than
| competing audio players that hid everything behind menus.
| oxplot wrote:
| > but in a car with lives at stake, they can't be so cavalier
|
| Oh man, my hair will go white soon if I have to tell people who
| keep making these kind of statements : either show this is
| causing accidents or lives with numbers or you're talking out of
| your intuitive ass.
|
| I agree with the rest - the new interface isn't as intuitive and
| multiple interactions is required for various things that needed
| one tap before. It's definitely worse and I hope it gets better.
|
| What's not intuitive to non-Tesla owners is that Tesla owners use
| the voice command extensively to get things done. Here's a few of
| my day to day usage:
|
| - Turn on recirculate
|
| - Lower the temperature
|
| - Play song X by Y
|
| - Navigate to supermarket
|
| - Fold the mirrors (for when parking in tight spots)
|
| - Turn wiper high (no longer use this as the auto setting is
| almost perfect as of late)
|
| You initiate the voice command by pressing a physical button on
| the steering wheel under your thumb. For majority of what I've
| listed above, you'd have to take your eyes off the road to either
| operate a physical button or tap on awfully unresponsive
| touchscreens in other cars. So as far as I'm concerned, I'm more
| road alert in Tesla than I've been in any other car. Add
| autopilot in the mix and nothing else comes close.
| jakear wrote:
| Does activating the voice control cause music to stop/decrease
| in volume? This has always really bothered me -- if I'm jamming
| to a song the last thing I want is for it to stop/drop away,
| and if the car is creating the noise shouldn't it know pretty
| damn well how to separate my signal from the noise?
| yholio wrote:
| I have no idea why Tesla tries to revolutionize the user
| interface of cars at the same time with their powertrains - as if
| they don't have enough risk on their plate. There is a reason
| every car built in the last 50 years looks drives roughly in the
| same way: it's a highly tuned design language that has evolved
| incrementally alongside the drivers, so that everyone can get
| into any car and drive it, without risking to find out the brake
| and acceleration pedals are reversed.
|
| How does a radically new interior design help Tesla and their
| long term growth targets? Is it much cheaper to manufacture? Does
| it give drivers that learn the new paradigm a phenomenally better
| experience (no, it does not)?
|
| If my opinion has any relevance, they should stick to improving
| performance, range and efficiency, price and vehicle reliability.
| Just leave the damn dashboard be already, a UX revolution is a
| turnoff for an bitter old fart like me, not a selling point.
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