[HN Gopher] DarkPattern.games: Find Healthy Mobile Games ___________________________________________________________________ DarkPattern.games: Find Healthy Mobile Games Author : homarp Score : 205 points Date : 2022-02-02 21:42 UTC (1 days ago) (HTM) web link (www.darkpattern.games) (TXT) w3m dump (www.darkpattern.games) | DavideNL wrote: | Heh. So if you click the Apple icon, you get games that are NOT | playable on Apple devices :S | | *confusing* | user123456780 wrote: | You can see a correlation between healthy and unhealthy games in | their icons. | | Ungealthy games are mostly high quality 'renders' for lack of a | better term. The healthy games have a much less attention | grabbing 'lower quality' icon. | dang wrote: | One past discussion: | | _Show HN: Dark Patterns in Game Design_ - | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20953553 - Sept 2019 (8 | comments) | awelxtr wrote: | With free games it would be easier to put a list of games without | dark patterns. | jiggunjer wrote: | I'm pretty confident gaming addiction is a thing, but not sure | how strong (in terms of studies/evidence) the correlation is with | these dark patterns. My hypothesis is that certain personality | types are just more susceptible to gaming addiction, regardless | of patterns. | BiteCode_dev wrote: | The first time I read "99 francs", I remember arriving on the | double page that was nothing but a list of tag lines from tv | ads. No context. No brands. Just 2 full pages of things that | I've heard in between shows. | | I could hear the jingle in my head. I knew each of the names of | the brand after reading the tag lines. | | For every. Single. One. Of. Them. | | I always though I was not susceptible to this. Ads are only | influencing others, but not me. | | But no. | | There are ways for people to burn themself through the screen | into your brain. And video games mechanics is no exception. | gowld wrote: | How many of those brands have you purchased? | BiteCode_dev wrote: | I'd say 5% more than once a year. | | But my point is that there are ways to stick in people's | mind through screens. You can't make 100% of the targets | make 100% of the moves you want. But a few % here and there | add up. | elldoubleyew wrote: | I've always wondered if I have a "gaming addiction" | | I play league of legends at least 4 hours per day, sometimes | 20+ hours. I am obsessed with learning all the intricacies and | improving in the ELO-based ranking system. | | I still maintain a full time job as an SWE, a romantic | relationship, and personal hygiene/diet. Admittedly LoL comes | first before work for me, and can cause tension in my | relationship at times. | | I know many men that have a very similar relationship with | golf, but are they golf addicts? | watwut wrote: | The addiction definition requires negative effect on you or | closed ones. And inability to stop even when you rationally | think you should stop. So, depending on how much tension and | what kind of tension, it can be qualified as addiction or | not. | | > I know many men that have a very similar relationship with | golf, but are they golf addicts? | | Very time consuming hobbies do have higher rates of divorced | participants. Regardless of whether they are popular enough | for people to know about hobby related issues or not. | makapuf wrote: | Divorced persons may have more time by themselves so maybe | they also engage in more time consuming hobbys. | watwut wrote: | Yes, the relationship goes both ways. Divorced people | have more time and are more likely to join. People are | more likely to divorce if they have such hobbies too - | the implications for partner are very very real. | lapetitejort wrote: | You have a "gaming addiction" as much as some people have a | "network television" addiction. Some people just like to | experience a medium for several hours a day. Playing four | hours of LoL is just as meaningless as watching four hours of | TV. One is more stigmatized than the other (I'll give you a | hint, the one where ads can be delivered on a regular | schedule is the more acceptable one). And I'm willing to bet | that if there's something you need to do that night, you | could sacrifice one or two days to get things done and not | feel any ill effects (and if I may rib on it a bit, probably | feel much better having stepped away from LoL). | mkl95 wrote: | This. Being an addict to "x" often depends on what | relationship the average citizen is expected to have with | "x". In a deeply religious society, reading and analyzing | religious texts for hours every day may be seen as an | average activity, while in a non religious society you may | be seen as a lunatic. In most if not all societies, people | are expected to work full time, but workaholism treatment | centers are not particularly popular. | meetups323 wrote: | I don't think very many men play golf at least 4 hours every | day. That's a full round of 18, every single day? And some | days 5 full rounds? | | The exception would _maybe_ be if they 're working from the | course (closing deals/making calls/etc.), but that's pretty | different from your situation. | frankohn wrote: | China is taking draconian measures to protect people from game | addiction. While I generally don't agree with their politics I | feel they are doing the right things to protect the society. | | I feel the occidental states are not doing enough to protect | people from game addiction and protect children from tablet | addiction and bad contents. | | These thing are slowly eroding our society and making people more | miserable when they are not able to help themselves against all | these forms of addiction. | finiteseries wrote: | Video games and tablets are not eroding our societies. | | Children's usage of video games and tablets is their parents | job, not the national government's. | | I don't know what country you're in, but the thought of whoever | is in control of mine "protecting" anyone from bad contents, | let alone children, is enough to send chills down one's spine. | | That is a blank check on info consumption and the sheer naivety | required to entertain that idea for more than a second is | bewildering. | brnt wrote: | It is about empowering the parent/citizen in the face of | trillion dollar companies spending more money than ever | gaming our psyches. | Barrin92 wrote: | >Children's usage of video games and tablets is their parents | job, not the national government's. | | Confucianism would disagree and most East-Asian countries | have been running on some version of it for a few thousand | years, so you might want to reevaluate why that idea is so | bewildering to you. | | Honestly I find the idea bewildering that parents are | supposed to be the sole authority on these matters, because | 1. works out pretty badly for people who don't have stable | parents, which is quite a lot of them nowadays, 2. neglects | virtually all institutional knowledge collected over long | periods of time | seneca wrote: | Well said. | | I do think there is a place for state institutions to fund | research and public-good marketing campaigns on these issues. | Maybe to go so far as campaigns explaining these behaviors | are unhealthy and potentially dangerous in optional school | programs. In short, state intervention in child rearing, | short of major abuse, should be limited to optional | education. | ericd wrote: | Are you a parent? If you are, what degree of control do you | think you have over what your child is exposed to during the | times when they're not with you? | | Not saying I like the draconian levels that China is going to | on this, but a lot of how your kid turns out is based on what | they're exposed to by their peers, and so some things are | societal/population level problems. Parents can broadly try | to affect this by controlling the school their kids go to, | but that's a very blunt instrument at best, generally much | more expensive than less great schools, and a huge amount of | work to redo. If they're already struggling due to eg high | housing costs relative to their wages (another one of our | societal issues), then the parents are going to have a really | uphill challenge trying to curate their children's' | experience. | | It takes a village, and if your village is not working well, | you're going to have a hard time as a parent. This whole idea | of nuclear families as independent units was never true and | needs to die. | seneca wrote: | I largely agree with you up until your last sentence. The | mistake you're making is equating the government with the | village. That is a fundamental mistake and failure that | seems extremely widespread. Civil Society needs to address | this problem. | | Bastiat has a passage in the Law which touched on this, | though he is specifically talking about socialists: | | > Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, | confuses the distinction between government and society. As | a result of this, every time we object to a thing being | done by government, the socialists conclude that we object | to its being done at all. We disapprove of state education. | Then the socialists say that we are opposed to any | education. We object to a state religion. Then the | socialists say that we want no religion at all. We object | to a state-enforced equality. Then they say that we are | against equality. And so on, and so on. It is as if the | socialists were to accuse us of not wanting persons to eat | because we do not want the state to raise grain. | tifadg1 wrote: | Are you referring to limiting online play time or were there | other steps as well? | frankohn wrote: | I only know about limiting online games. | Kiro wrote: | China's video game regulator hasn't approved any new titles | since July 2021. Sounds like an outright ban to me. | autoexec wrote: | Cool site! I wish there was a way to show games which are both | free and healthy. I suspect it would be a small list, but still | worth having. | DaveSapien wrote: | This is so much up my street its practically in my house! | | A few days ago, I just released a mobile game focused very much | on the wellbeing of the player. | | It's called Kanso, And I'll be submitting it here for sure. Thank | you very much for posting!!!! | kant_adorn_arts wrote: | What a great website. I'd been thinking of how to find such info. | We buy lots of kids games, and this is a great 'cheat sheet'. It | is great that you spell out the dark patterns. | | Who reviews the games? Upfront, it seems like they have done an | excellent job. | TulliusCicero wrote: | Wow, this site has a very low threshold for considering something | a 'dark pattern'. If you look at the psychological section, these | are all considered dark patterns: | | * A leveling up system | | * Badges/achievements | | * Collecting things | | * Getting better tools/equipment as the game progresses | | That's like...most games, I think? Most single-player games at | least probably have at least one of those. | | edit: some of the examples listed here are hilarious | | > D4DJ Groovy Mix | | > "difficulty 1 through 14 is easy to learn and master, while 15 | is the hardest difficulty in the game. makes people think that | they have 90% of the skill of the best player but in reality it | is not the case" | | > Magic: The Gathering Arena | | > "There are mysterious matchmaking algorithms. It isn't clear | how these work. At face, they appear to match players of similar | skill or deck strength." | matheusmoreira wrote: | This bar is not low at all. Anything involving reward can cause | addiction and harm. All of those things you cited are just | methods of scheduling rewards. You level up every X amount of | time, you get an item every Y amount of time. | | These things are not some unforeseen emergent feature, they are | deliberately designed. What makes it malicious is the behavior | these rewards are designed to create. | | An RPG using a leveling system to make sure you can't survive | certain challenges until you've progressed enough is not | malicious at all. | | An RPG that pits players against each other, imposes the same | leveling system on players, rates limit their progression with | a timer and allows people to reset the timer by paying money | essentially turns the game into a spending competition whose | goal is to see who can pay some corporation the most money. Not | to mention their blatant attempt to form habits in players by | giving them daily login rewards and tasks. | vitro wrote: | Curious question, what about if you use some of these "dark" | approaches for something good? Say some education app that | hooks you so you can progress and learn more. Are they still | called "dark patterns" in this case? Example - badges for tasks | you have done or "streaks" or levels to show you how you | progress and what you have achieved so far? | matheusmoreira wrote: | You're talking about Duolingo, right? The problem with these | incentives is you eventually forget you installed the app to | learn a new language and you start gaming the system instead | by repeating easy lessons just to avoid losing your position | in diamond league. | thewebcount wrote: | In my opinion, yes. Take for example DuoLingo. It is very | aggressive about trying to get you to turn on notifications. | They claim that if you have notifications on you're more | likely to continue learning at a regular pace. That may be | true (though spaced repetition seems best, and they use | "streaks" of days you've interacted with the app as a metric, | which is the opposite of spaced repetition). However, my | understanding is that they also slip in other notifications | about things you might not care about like your "rank" on the | "leaderboards". (I'm trying to learn a language, not compete | in the Olympics. Why do I need to compare my progress to | random strangers around the world?) Some of the dark patterns | go away when you subscribe, but not all. Using the app feels | really gross, even though I am learning a new language. Many | of the dark patterns may have positive outcomes, but it's all | still to juice their metrics in the end. | unfocussed_mike wrote: | Badges and achievements definitely are a dark pattern. You can | tell they are because game developers have gone so overboard on | them now that you are like, oh I got a badge, yes I'll claim | it, no I haven't a clue what it does... | | The rest of the things you identify, as you say, that's just | games. | | (I think this website is a very, very good idea) | madrox wrote: | I'm not sure if it's a broad definition of dark pattern or a | narrow definition of game. This site probably considers sudoku, | wordle, and crosswords to be games, but would probably not | consider, say, Witcher to be a game...at least not a good one. | I kinda see their point. | brnt wrote: | I actually totally agree. For way longer than I should have did | I avoid RPGs because of those systems, because they seemed a | silly reduction of "progress". Now that I play RPGs, I still | find them pointless annoyances that get in my way of enjoying | the world/story. | | I still don't like that Steam added achievements to my games. I | wish I could disable the entire "feature". | TulliusCicero wrote: | "I personally don't like this thing" isn't the same thing as | "dark pattern." There are people like you that explicitly | avoid RPG's, sure, and there are people who explicitly seek | them out because they enjoy that part of the mechanics. | | Having 'levels' in games has been around for a long time, you | can probably trace them back to the beginning days of D&D. | Were the original D&D authors trying to get people addicted? | Probably not, it was just something they thought players | would like. And indeed, many players do. | brnt wrote: | Even if a long time ago these mechanisms weren't meant as a | dark pattern, it isn't difficult to see how they are easily | turned into one, is it? | | It seems obvious these mechanisms always had this effect, | and it is a pity that even with them amplified some still | don't see the potential for harm. You are right, it does | not matter whether or not we like the mechanism or not for | it to be problematic. | TulliusCicero wrote: | > it isn't difficult to see how they are easily turned | into one, is it? | | Perhaps, but their mere existence isn't being a dark | pattern. | | > It seems obvious these mechanisms always had this | effect | | What effect? Getting people to play more? Do having a | good story or tight mechanics count as dark patterns too | then? | | To me, the idea of a 'dark pattern' here is when a | mechanic is being used to push people to play the game | more past what they actually enjoy. It's when they don't | really feel like playing anymore, but some system in the | game compels them to, they feel they 'need' to do | something in there. On the other hand, if people do enjoy | the specific game element itself, if taking it away would | make fans of that type of game find it less enjoyable, | then it's not really a dark pattern. | | If you removed levels and similar systems of progression | from Final Fantasy or The Elder Scrolls, would fans of | those series find the games more or less enjoyable? My | bet is less. | brnt wrote: | > To me, the idea of a 'dark pattern' here is when a | mechanic is being used to push people to play the game | more past what they actually enjoy. | | Would people play less if such mechanisms were left out? | I'm sure of it. Thus they are nudging you to play more, | to get that achievement, to round out that score. I don't | see how it couldn't, or what this adds to a good game. | Below you are spot on: these things are not intrinsic to | the game and thus, IMHO, best left off. The meta game of | completionism does not affect everyone the same, but I | don't think it ever adds. | TulliusCicero wrote: | > Would people play less if such mechanisms were left | out? I'm sure of it. | | I already addressed this point earlier: | | > What effect? Getting people to play more? Do having a | good story or tight mechanics count as dark patterns too | then? | | I'm going to call out now that you ignored this question. | Was that just because you didn't have a good response | that fit your argument? It sure seems like it. | | > I don't see how it couldn't, or what this adds to a | good game. | | This is just you asserting your own preferences as an | Objective Moral Good. "I don't understand why other | people would like <thing>, therefore I can conclude that | their enjoyment is irrelevant or objectively incorrect." | | Part of having an open mind is learning to accept that | other people may enjoy things that we find odd or even | bewildering. Asserting that if other people find | different things enjoyable, then Other People Are Wrong | is the mark of a closed mind. | | If you _actually_ believe the point you 're putting forth | here -- that RPG fans don't truly enjoy the mechanics | most closely associated with a game being an RPG -- then | I suggest you go to an RPG forum and ask them yourself. | Because your whole argument here smells very strongly of, | "doesn't understand the perspective of others, and | doesn't want to understand." | brnt wrote: | The mechanic of levelling up or gathering experience | points and so on are proxies for a sense of progress, not | actual progress. They don't get you anything but the | satisfaction of getting it. Textbook pointlessness. | | Asserting that I do not understand people enjoy different | things differently, and the other things you Seem To Wish | To Imply: undermines your attempt at convincing me my | mind is closed. You insistence on mistaking validation | for goodness (because people enjoy it, does not mean it | without dark pattern) however might show you something | about your own mind. Tons of people like things that are | not 'good' for them, doesn't mean we should see no | problem with is or at least understand the pitfall. | Buttons840 wrote: | > The meta game of completionism does not affect everyone | the same, but I don't think it ever adds. | | I think it adds. | | Your argument seems to be that it _never_ adds, which is | easily refuted by one person who thinks it adds. | | Although, saying "it adds" is incomplete. What I mean is | it adds to the enjoyment of the game, there are games I | would enjoy less without "leveling up". Thus, leveling up | adds to a game by enhancing its primary purpose for | existing, mental stimulation and enjoyment. | Taylor_OD wrote: | Why don't you like achievements? I'm curious. I never cared | about them in the past and for most games they are just a | little nonsense side bubble that pop up sometimes. But for a | few games I've sunk a ton of hours into, mostly rouge likes, | they are fun to try to complete. | mikepurvis wrote: | As an adult gamer with limited time, I'm not a | completionist at all, so I sympathize with feeling that | achievements can be kind of naggy, like I'm being scolded | for not investing further in a title. Part of that is just | facing my own demons-- like, Spider-Man PS4 was a super fun | time; I played it through twice and got almost all the | trophies, but I'm not a bad person for being done with it | before getting the platinum. | | On the other hand, recently playing Nobody Saves The World, | I've actually come to enjoy the little mini Form Quests | that it gives you-- you have to complete something like 200 | of these to progress the main story (they award stars that | are needed to open key dungeon doors), but more | importantly, they encourage you to engage with the mix-and- | match abilities system that the game offers, which preps | you with the mindset that is needed to take on certain | late-game challenges. | | Into The Breach is another excellent title that has in-game | completion tracking, encouraging you to get a 2-, 3-, and | 4-island victory with each set of mechs, and awarding | unlocks at certain milestones of those. | | So I think I slightly resent but am happy to ignore "bolted | on" achievements that are purely observational, but I also | appreciate some games that do more with achievement-like | challenges in terms of pushing the player to try new | strategies. | AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: | > Into The Breach is another excellent title that has in- | game completion tracking, encouraging you to get a 2-, | 3-, and 4-island victory with each set of mechs, and | awarding unlocks at certain milestones of those. | | I f'ing hated the achievement-based unlocks in Into The | Breach. If you want to gate content behind beating the | game at certain difficulties or something, I guess that's | fine, but to do it with arbitrary numbers of random | bullshit objectives, many of them luck based, was | annoying as hell. | mikepurvis wrote: | > I f'ing hated the achievement-based unlocks in Into The | Breach. | | That's a fair perspective. For my part, I felt pretty | consistently when I lost an ITB run that I deserved it-- | I hadn't lost to a heartless RNG, I had lost because I | made a wrong choice, and the scenario would have been | beatable if I'd made different tradeoffs. | | I think what I liked about the progressive unlocking was | that I was never overwhelmed by too much choice upfront | as happens in some games (think old school RPGs with a | spreadsheet character builder as the first screen), and I | felt when I did get a new team unlocked like I'd really | put in the effort and earned it; I was excited to try it | out in a way that I wouldn't be if I just had them all | available from the beginning (or unlocked via some other | means that I hadn't worked for). | AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: | > That's a fair perspective. For my part, I felt pretty | consistently when I lost an ITB run that I deserved it-- | I hadn't lost to a heartless RNG, I had lost because I | made a wrong choice, and the scenario would have been | beatable if I'd made different tradeoffs. | | ....which has absolutely nothing to do with achievements? | I agree, the game design was fine in this regard, it is | the gating of unlocks behind arbitrary objectives relying | on luck that I have a problem with[0]. If they just gated | each team behind beating the game with a previous team I | wouldn't have complained. | | [0] Specifically, unlocking certain characters relied on | luck based events, as did even having an attempt at some | of the achievements. All achievements need to be unlocked | for the final team, which I never got because fuck that | noise. | brnt wrote: | They are a meta game and feel like cheap way to encourage | me to play more. A game, at least that's how I prefer it, | should just be so good that I will want to play more. Games | should trust their own quality, and let the player have | their own experience of it, not incentivize or normalize | the experience. | TulliusCicero wrote: | I feel similarly sometimes myself. It's like those studies | on giving money to little kids when they draw. You're doing | something for the intrinsic reward, the joy of playing, and | now they've slapped on some extrinsic reward you didn't ask | for. So the game makes you feel, on some level, that you're | doing it for the extrinsic reward, and it saps some of the | intrinsic joy you felt earlier. | | https://www.spring.org.uk/2021/07/intrinsic-motivation.php | | > So, those who had previously liked drawing (high | intrinsic motivation) were less motivated once they | expected to be rewarded for the activity. | | > In fact the expected reward reduced the amount of | spontaneous drawing the children did by half. | savanaly wrote: | Agree. There are other types of games besides straightforward | puzzle and platforming games! | bradly wrote: | Arena is pretty bad. Definitely dark patterns are being used | with their gold/gem economy. | crooked-v wrote: | > A leveling up system | | > Getting better tools/equipment as the game progresses | | These two in particular have been a consistent part of game | design for a long time because they ease players into | increasing gameplay complexity over time. Metroid games are a | simple example: when you start off you can run, jump and shoot, | and by the end of the game you're using every button on the | controller (sometimes multiple at once) and probably have other | abilities you can toggle on and off. | gfody wrote: | otoh I looked up a few games my kids play that I consider to be | flagrantly evil (genshin, gardenscapes, emojiblitz) and they | all score a "neutral" here | dmonitor wrote: | improving in skill creates investment in the game, which is | apparently bad according to one of the bullet points. | | I like the concept and think this is a topic that deserves more | attention, but the definition is broad to the point of | meaninglessness | atum47 wrote: | This seems like a nice list to be on; how do I submit my game? It | has no ads, no dark patterns... | | https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.victorribe... | | Android only for now, but an apple version could be arranged | errcorrectcode wrote: | Why I love retro DOS and Window games. Basically none of this | nonsense. | lucideer wrote: | Great website. I'll be using this. | | Two small bits of UI feedback: | | 1. It's not extremely clear that the search field is usable | | 2. Feature request (probably for medium term, I get this is a | very new project): The 4 boxes up top giving a breakdown of | different dark patterns is cool, but it would be cooler to filter | granularly. e.g. some might not care too much to avoid such | things as grinding or "complete the collection", but would still | like to avoid others. | mdrzn wrote: | After a quick skimming of both dark and non-dark pattern games, | seems that most of the dark pattern ones are free with in-app | purchases, while the non-dark pattern games are priced at a | couple dollars, sometimes with zero in app purchases. | | Different revenue models. | TulliusCicero wrote: | A while back I tried to find some good rhythm games for mobile, | and they seemed to fall into two categories: | | * Unpolished games with more limited and/or less interesting | content that you could buy for a straight fee | | * Fun-looking, polished games with songs I wanted to try that | were filled with energy systems and ways to get you to spend | money forever and ever | jamesgeck0 wrote: | osu!stream is a pretty good free one on iOS, but | unfortunately they're done updating it. | saint_angels wrote: | I think the website would be more useful, if you can select what | patterns you personally consider "dark" and filter by those. For | example, I don't consider "Variable Rewards" as a dark pattern | and don't want it to affect game scores in a list. | wantsanagent wrote: | Ironically variable reward schedules are the most powerful | reward schedules for maintaining behavior in the absence of | further rewards. I know you're not a rat/pidgeon but it's just | funny you picked the one that classical behavioral psychology | would say is close to the most influential. | k__ wrote: | I always see cool ads for games that have nothing to do with the | games I end up installing. | | Would be nice to find the real games, if they even exist. | csours wrote: | Rule 1 of picking mobile games: If it's "free" and is sponsoring | a YouTube video, or if it's advertised in another mobile game, or | if it advertised in the store, DON'T PLAY IT, because it is not a | game! | | I wish the stores had an "In Game Currency" filter, not just "In | App Purchases". | mmh0000 wrote: | I avoid all mobile games because they're, for the most part, just | spyware. I read though this list hoping to find something, | clicking a few random games, everything looks pretty similar: | Data Linked to You The following data may be collected and linked | to your identity: Purchases Location | Identifiers Diagnostics Other Data | | I'm sorry, but no. You do not need my location, identifies or | other data. gtfo | hnthrowaway0315 wrote: | Some recommendations: | | If you enjoy Wizardry, there is a Japanese developer who | developed a few WZ clones. Just search "Wizardry" in Google play | and you should find it. It's called the "Wandroid" series. AFAIS | the sales were decent (1K+ for the first game) for such a game. | | There are also mobile ports for classic games such as "Dungeon | Master". But overall, I don't see Mobile as a healthy gaming | platform. | BudaDude wrote: | Great website ! I was surprised to not see Magic Arena on there . | Kiro wrote: | I love grinding and found a lot of good games in the "Dark Games" | section so thanks! | yelling_cat wrote: | Plenty of great word or number games only cost a couple of bucks | to buy or remove ads on forever and have no other IAPs. Half of | my family is obsessed with Wordsmyth at the moment. Most mobile | action games are stuffed with dark patterns these days, but there | are plenty of great ports with only one-time charges. Rockstar's | ported Max Payne and most of their great PS2-era games: GTA III, | Vice City, San Andreas, Bully, Max Payne, etc. | banana_giraffe wrote: | The two games I looked up have a handful of votes, but are wrong, | or based on a optimistic view of a portion of the game. | | Which is to say, it feels like this site itself is being gamified | to a degree. Fans of games will no doubt "vouch" for their | favorite game, ignoring dark patterns unless they're severe. | aeternum wrote: | It's a great idea but terrible UI. The sort needs to be | different, a game with a single 5.0 rating should not appear | above a game with 10,000 reviews but a 4.99 rating. | spamtarget wrote: | This is really great. Is there something similar to non-gaming | software? | fire wrote: | I believe https://www.darkpatterns.org/ is a general Dark | Patterns site | cardosof wrote: | Recently I've bought a Nintendo Switch because I've come to the | realization that mobile games (I play on a high end tablet) are | inferior. Why? Because most of then rely on dark patterns to get | you watching ads or paying lots of money to roll chances like a | casino. Console games are more likely to provide you a quality, | limited time, instead of the opposite -infinite low quality time. | thenerdhead wrote: | So this can help parents and kids with mobile games, but let's | talk about the elephant in the room of the games we ourselves are | addicted to or our kids keep coming back to play. | | When I was a teen I was addicted to World of Warcraft. I played | for a few years before quitting. My grades dropped, my social | life was hurting, and all for just in game items? I remember how | worried my parents were about my screen time and the lengths they | went to try and limit it. | | Some of my best friends continue to play to this day and keep | telling me that they are bored with it and will quit next | expansion. They are now re-playing the same game over like they | did with me a decade ago as it's now a "classic" version. | | How do we help people get help they desire when these games | create almost a combative, intervention needed type of situation? | | There's https://www.restartlife.com/ and other similar types of | websites out there to help, but I feel like the problem is the | dark patterns already have a hold on one's behavior to the point | where only that person can be the agent of change or a major | event happens in their life to spark the change. | Bancakes wrote: | You can't think in interventions. A person has to realise their | way of life objectively and _feel_ they are making a mistake. | They don 't _feel_ WoW is a waste of time. Same thing with | weight loss. | thenerdhead wrote: | It was used in reference to a friend who has told me | countlessly that they want to quit but they don't know how. I | also ran into this as a teen but "woke" up from it when going | to college. | TulliusCicero wrote: | Reminds me of the studies with drug addiction and rats. IIRC | some of the early studies about how certain drugs were so | addictive were done with rats who basically couldn't do | anything else, and when you give the rats other things to do in | their life, suddenly the drugs aren't as interesting. | | I think the fundamental thing about playing repetitive games | like WoW forever is that the skinner box is more interesting | than real life, which is more an indictment of their real life | than the game. Not sure how to fix that, though, and certainly | there are people who can enjoy MMO's in moderation. | vharuck wrote: | This may not be true for everyone, but it was for me. In | college, I was skipping classes and ignoring friends. I just | stayed in my room and played WoW. Then my graphics card | kicked the bucket, and the game was unplayable. So I stayed | in the library and read random books, skipping classes and | ignoring friends. | | I wasn't addicted to WoW. I just had major depression. After | dealing with that over many years, I got back into WoW. | Played a lot less of it, then. | TulliusCicero wrote: | I had the same problem with spending too much time in | Warcraft 3 in college. | | I dunno if I'd say that I was depressed, exactly, but I was | feeling overwhelmed by my classes. Like many of us here, | I'd had a very easy time in high school, and I was unused | to classes that would seriously challenge me, where it | would be a struggle to learn some of the content. That, | combined with new freedom (I was several hundred miles away | from home, and my parents had been fairly | sheltering/controlling) did not make for a disciplined | student, and I ended up getting academically suspended. | | Came back several years later with my head on straight and | retook the various classes I failed, mostly getting A's. | Was actually getting an academic scholarship from my GPA by | my last semester. | nouveaux wrote: | Quitting World of Warcraft may have similarities to quitting | smoking. The thing that brings ex smokers back to smoking is | the social component. | GuB-42 wrote: | Interesting how some "dark patterns", especially of the | psychological kind, are actually important elements of good game | design. | | For example the "illusion of control" (The game cheats or hides | information to make you think you're better than you actually | are) is everywhere, and it makes better games. One classic | example is "coyote time" in platform games. Or for a more | specific example, in Portal, at one time, you have to quickly | fire a portal to avoid being crushed, it is a tense situation, | and an important part of the story. So, to avoid a stupid death | at the worst time, if you fire the wrong portal, it silently | switches the other portal to correct your mistake. | | Aesthetic Manipulations (Trick questions or toying with emotions | or our subconscious desires) is the entire point of many games. | We _want_ games to play with our emotions. Take a horror game for | instance, you are sitting on a couch, at home, in the least scary | environment you can imagine, the game has to pull all the trick | on you if you want the scares you paid for. And no one is going | to tell you that getting attached to characters is a bad thing | and they would rather see them as the bunch of pixels they are. | | Frequency biases are all over the place too, usually in favor of | the player. So much that when the game uses true randomness, it | feels unfair. Good games are designed for player enjoyment, not | to punish them with randomness. | | It also considers competition a dark pattern, are sports a dark | pattern too? | dragontamer wrote: | Homing bullets in Halo was my introduction to the concept. | Lesser players may not know this: but _ALL_ bullets (except | sniper shots) home in Halo, not just Needler shots. | | Those crazy across-the-map pistol headshots you were doing do | have an element of skill, but as a console platformer with | relatively poor joystick controls (compared to accurate | keyboard/mouse controls), it was necessary to have this auto- | aim in order for fast-paced combat to exist. | | Besides, no one plays FPS games to practice joystick control or | aim. The "fun" part of the game is positioning and team- | dynamics. | | ------- | | This isn't a dark pattern at all. Its necessary to make the | "mundane" or "unfun" parts more automated, so that the players | can focus on the fun parts. | hunterb123 wrote: | It's not the bullet that "homes", it's your crosshair that | has a bit of stickyness. | | If someone walks by you slowly it'll grab on to them and | follow it. | | You need a little bit of auto aim because aiming with your | thumbs (joystick) isn't as accurate as a your wrist (mouse). | | It's the reason why sweep shooting works so well. Sweep your | crosshairs across the screen, pull the trigger when it | crosses something, it'll hold onto them slightly as it goes | by. | | You can still be more accurate on a PC without autoaim vs a | console with. | | > Besides, no one plays FPS games to practice joystick | control or aim | | Not really true. They do to be better among their peers, | doesn't matter if there are PC players out there, irrelevant. | | Auto aim is simply necessary to fix a limitation in the | hardware, sometimes it gets in the way, most of the time it | helps with frustration of the dead area of the joystick. | Buttons840 wrote: | Its probably both, but even without the auto tracking you | describe, it's still quite possible for the space within a | single pixel to be mostly misses. If someone positions | their cursor in this single pixel, the game gives them the | benefit of the doubt and counts it as a hit. | idonotknowwhy wrote: | It's both actually. I play mcc on PC. Controller players | get that very obvious cross hair aim you mention, and | keyboard/mouse players don't. That's why all the pro | players use controller, a 150ms latency human can't compete | with the aimbot. | | But there's also subtle bullet magnetism, for both | controller and kb/mouse players. | | There are YouTube videos demonstrating this if you're | interested. | | I prefer keyboard/mouse which puts me at a disadvantage but | I'm not a pro player so I don't mind. | dragontamer wrote: | > Not really true. They do to be better among their peers, | doesn't matter if there are PC players out there, | irrelevant. | | If you really wanted to be a player without autoaim / | bullet magnetism / all the stuff Halo "aimbots" into your | controller, you'd be playing Counterstrike. | | But no, people play Halo. Because people like (subtle) | aimbots making their headshots more consistent. Games like | Halo (and other FPS games that came after Halo, such as | Battlefront or Call of Duty) all take this auto-aim concept | to varying degrees. | | Its now a staple of modern FPS games. | | ------ | | But yes, I recall the "mouse practice" people would do to | get better aim on Counterstrike. Those headshots don't | happen by themselves: there's a lot of "move the mouse" | practice in Microsoft-paint (practice moving one pixel at a | time or whatever), and learning the positions of your | wrist. | | Most people don't care about that level of dedication or | practice. I think it suffices to say that typical FPS | gamers today prefer the subtle aimbot to handle that level | of muscle memory. | | I'm being a bit hyperbolic. Obviously the "Counterstrike" | players and community cares about this stuff. That's why | they still play Counterstrike. But I also am ready to admit | that their community is a small minority of players in the | greater FPS genre. | | ------- | | "360 No Scope" happens to take advantage of this bullet | magnetism / autoaim as well. Moving the reticle quickly | IIRC engages the auto-aim bot a bit more. | | > It's the reason why sweep shooting works so well. Sweep | your crosshairs across the screen, pull the trigger when it | crosses something, it'll hold onto them slightly as it goes | by. | | The game's "auto-aim" system effectively fires two bullets | for each frame. If your target is "between" the two | bullets, then it counts as a hit. | | Sweep-shooting is moving the crosshairs really fast, so | that these two "bullets" are spaced as far apart as | possible. So you've grown the auto-aim area. | chrischen wrote: | > But no, people play Halo. Because people like (subtle) | aimbots making their headshots more consistent. | | Valorant, a counter-strike like game, is actually more | popular than the current Halo game. | | And let's not forget PUBG, originally a PC-only game, | that was wildly popular. No aimbot in there either and | not only was there no auto-aim, bullets don't even go | where you click because they obeyed physics! | unfocussed_mike wrote: | > Interesting how some "dark patterns", especially of the | psychological kind, are actually important elements of good | game design. | | Right. | | I really think this website is a _great_ idea, but I 'm | surprised to see people reporting "dark" patterns in Lumino | City, for example, when what they are actually talking about is | a game so beautiful and gently maddening that you want to | finish it. | gfody wrote: | Pacman is a good example - the ghosts are deliberately simple | so you have a chance of avoiding them and the game is fun. I | wouldn't call it a "dark" pattern unless the ghosts were also | mind hacking my desire to play more with gacha techniques | dragontamer wrote: | Pacman is funny: one ghost was incredibly bugged and | basically doesn't function right. | | They fixed the glitch in "Ms. Pacman", and the game | definitely feels better because of it. | | ---------- | | Strong Ms. Pacman players know the personalities of the | ghosts. IIRC, Blinky (Red) aims at a direct path towards the | player. I think the Blue-one IIRC tries to form a pincer | attack. The other two I always forget (I'm not strong enough | to really pick them apart at that level... but I'm strong | enough to avoid most Blinky issues). | gfody wrote: | you're thinking of Clyde | (https://ryanharveyauthor.com/2018/09/27/learning-clyde- | sensi...) he's the most interesting one | CapsAdmin wrote: | I agree that these probably shouldn't be called dark patterns, | maybe neutral? | | > For example the "illusion of control" is everywhere, and it | makes better games. | | But what is a better game? A game that is enjoyed by most | people, good retention or maybe a bit of both? | | I'm also curious to see your take on what a dark pattern is. | frankohn wrote: | Games with dark patterns are an overwhelming majority on Android. | That's sad because they abuse fragile people and children. | | That didn't had to be that way if Google didn't promote its ad- | based revenue model for apps and games. To my eyes they are | responsible for the current situation. | brnt wrote: | Every time I open the app store on my Android phone, I am | amazed at the utter drivel it presents me with. I guess that's | the attention economy at work. | sorenn111 wrote: | Relevant plug for Lichess mobile app (I am not affiliated). It's | a free chess app that allows for rated play against opponents. | Tens of thousands of concurrent games. No ads or payments (I | don't remember if I paid, but I would be happy to support). No | bells, no whistles, just chess. | | I have a pseudo addictive personality and mobile phone games P2W | have gotten me to shell out more than I'd care to admit. I've | stopped playing all such mobile games and my "nicotine gum" game | was getting back to my roots (elementary school chess team): | mobile chess from Lichess. | copperwater69 wrote: | I used to play team fortress 2. In TF2 whenever you hit an enemy | a bell is rung. I remember laying in bed one night and all I | could hear was that bell ringing and I felt like one of pavlovs | dogs. | X6S1x6Okd1st wrote: | That's not really considered a dark pattern, seems like an | auditory "tetris effect" | TulliusCicero wrote: | If this is considered a dark pattern, you could consider almost | anything that makes a game enjoyable to be a dark pattern. | Because, y'know, a really enjoyable game might make you think | about it at other times! You might even feel like going back to | the game and playing it, because you enjoy it so much! | | "Wow, the controls in this game are really tight, it feels | amazing to play...nice try, Miyamoto, you won't get me _this_ | time! " *chucks Switch out the window* | nouveaux wrote: | I think there is a more genuine take. The bell is not what | makes TF2 enjoyable. The fact that GP is thinking about the | bell instead of his game session brings into question whether | or not it's a dark pattern. | TulliusCicero wrote: | Hard disagree. I mean, it's only one tiny part of the game, | but sound design is a big part of what makes weapons feel | 'chunky' or powerful or satisfying, and it sounds like this | is similar. With the other part being that the distinct | sound is useful from a gameplay transparency perspective, | it means players are very aware when their shots land or | not. | | I played a lot of Overwatch for a while, and it had some | similar sound design IIRC. | nouveaux wrote: | I agree that sounds and details play an important part of | the game and there are sounds that are quite famous | (Mario). I am merely saying that it not u reasonable to | be question whether or not sounds can be a dark pattern. | I didn't draw any conclusions myself. | TulliusCicero wrote: | > I didn't draw any conclusions myself. | | Yes, you did: | | > The bell is not what makes TF2 enjoyable. | | But yeah I otherwise agree. | [deleted] | dawnerd wrote: | I believe thats an option to disable, but it's just too helpful | to not have. | Fernicia wrote: | Unless they've changed it, the default is that it's off. | BiteCode_dev wrote: | When I was a kid, I played bomberman too much with some friends | one summer. | | Going to sleep, I had the levels blinking through my eyes for | 20 minutes before my mind could finally find some rest. | jwdunne wrote: | Happened to me with both Bejewelled and Candy Crush. I went | to sleep with jewels and candies moving around and matching | up. That's where I drew the line. | duxup wrote: | I like this idea BUT... I feel like this is too much of boolean | checkbox type situation. | | I play a game that is on the F2P model. You can play free and | it's great. If you pay you get some advantages as far as | progression goes and some vehicles that are better than free | vehicles (sometimes...) but IMO ultimately it's the skill of the | player that determines your experience. | | The game has the usual loot boxes and stuff I don't care for. I | just don't do that stuff. | | I really like the game ... it plays well and I've no problem | throwing a couple bucks their way from time to time. | | I've gotten more out of it than many $60 AAA titles. | | If I went by check boxes the game has everything I hate, and yet | I really enjoy playing and don't have to do any of the 'dark | pattern' stuff. | | It's just to binary to say "has X is Y bad". | kovek wrote: | Reminds me of the games Buddha would not play | SethTro wrote: | I hate absolute ratings (e.g. 5/5 with 1 vote being ranked higher | than 4.99/5 with 100 votes). | | All the top games seem to have 1 report giving everything | positive ratings so that other fabulous games with more ratings | but say a 4.97 rating are lost. | | https://www.evanmiller.org/how-not-to-sort-by-average-rating... | null0pointer wrote: | 3blue1brown has a great series of videos about how you should | reason about these types of ratings. | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8idr1WZ1A7Q | joeframbach wrote: | Hilarious filter pattern in use in the top games list: | https://www.darkpattern.games/games.php?alignment=dark. At the | top is a "Filter by Platform" list which filters _out_ , not | _in_. I clicked the Android logo expecting, you know, to filter | for Android. The resulting querystring when you click Android is | "?alignment=dark&android=0". It literally filters _out_ not _in_. | causality0 wrote: | You want healthy mobile games? Emulate console games from before | consoles were online. There you go, thousands of games created | purely to be games. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-02-03 23:00 UTC)