[HN Gopher] Silenced AirTags with disabled speakers are popping ... ___________________________________________________________________ Silenced AirTags with disabled speakers are popping up for sale online Author : gumby Score : 203 points Date : 2022-02-03 18:21 UTC (4 hours ago) (HTM) web link (gizmodo.com) (TXT) w3m dump (gizmodo.com) | pyronik19 wrote: | My ex gf uses these to track her fiance ...sticking it in his bag | where he doesn't look. These things are SO ripe for abuse. | slig wrote: | You dodged a bullet. | post_break wrote: | Taping them together tightly silences it. Airtags have to be the | most nerfed product I've bought. Day one, they were fantastic. | Then they lowered the beeping and rogue alerts to a threshold my | wife gets them from my keys or wallet all the time. Then they | just beep randomly. I regret buying them to be honest. Tile never | really got harped on for stalking. The samsung trackers work just | as well as Apple and don't have anti-stalking features. | duxup wrote: | I haven't experienced any of the rouge alerts with them. | | That's very strange, I wonder what is triggering it for you. | | For my use case, tracking bags, kids on vacation and etc it has | worked fine. | xoa wrote: | I haven't experienced the same issues you describe in terms of | random beeping or the like. But I do think one of the most | curious and irritating missing pieces from AirTags is no sort | of tie-in with Family Sharing or some sort of contacts | whitelist. I saw one thing saying that was about privacy but | that makes zero sense because Apple doesn't do the same thing | elsewhere in "Find My" for people or devices. While it's | correctly opt-in, once everyone has done so we can see device | locations for all of the family's stuff, which is very helpful | when somebody is missing their phone or the like (anyone else | can help with it) as well as checking in disasters. I don't see | why that would be fine but keys wouldn't. In terms of privacy, | someone is more likely to have their watch, phone or airpods on | them then an Apple Tag frankly. Indeed that's the core logic of | Apple Tags, we put down and misplace other random stuff but | still have our phones/wearables. It can't be that rare for a | family to have multiple vehicles where a certain amount of | sharing happens, particularly if it's a pattern like us where | the SO and I each have a car but then there is a single old | truck that we both use. Family names are on the insurance, | legally it's multidriver property. And even good friends/room | mates probably share some kinds of property. Whomever has it is | responsible for not losing it and thus has an interest in | tracking it. | | Yeah it's a v1.0, but even so when Apple already has all this | infrastructure up strikes me as an odd omission that | significantly detracts from the utility for no good end. Even a | basic "ignore this tag for a day/week/year/permanently" would | at least help sand down a bit of the most irritating | notification spam. And worth noting that this sort of thing is | a genuine _security /privacy_ issue too: in real security | systems, the human factor matters a lot. If people get spammed | with noise, they will inevitably end up ignoring it when an | actual signal turns up. We've known this forever. | aldebran wrote: | This is probably because of 1. You have Bluetooth on all the | time 2. If BT is off, the tag isn't moving at all (including | drawer moving open shut) | antihero wrote: | Yeah until they have family tie in I hardly see the point. | samatman wrote: | Apple still has some weird atomization issues for a company | which is going all-in on family stuff. | | This is the company which ran out a credit card and payments | infrastructure with serious fanfare-- and, incredibly, no | provisions for married people having joint accounts. | | None, they added it later when dhh and Steve Wozniak made a | stink about it. | Androider wrote: | Using a shared iPad with a family is a bad experience with | all kinds of Apple account issues. Other apps | Netflix/Amazon/etc. thankfully provide quick user switching | which makes it tolerable. | mattdeboard wrote: | that's how they get you into buying multiple ipads | pkulak wrote: | I actually assumed this is how it would work. Had absolutely | no reason to believe otherwise until my son lost his coat and | we needed to get his phone before anyone could find it. I | could have just added his coat to my account, but then he'd | get stalking alerts all day long. Arg. | jedberg wrote: | If you have a family Apple account you can avoid having your | keys beep at your wife. | JohnTHaller wrote: | Apple has over a hundred million iPhones all across the US and | opted them into helping track Airtags without asking for | permission (I'm sure it was buried in the middle of pages of | terms of service). The only way to opt your iDevice out of | tracking is to turn off Find My, so you can't find your phone | if you lose it. Nice bit of artificial tying there. Tile and | Samsung devices are more for personal use and won't really work | outside your own location. | kemayo wrote: | You can opt out of the "Find My network" part separately from | the overall Find My system. This does mean that you'd not be | able to find your phone if it's fully powered off, of course, | but that seems to be a fair trade-off if you don't want to | track or be tracked as part of this. | | See: https://imgur.com/a/ZY9oBPV | autoexec wrote: | I could swear that Samsung's find my phone service works | exactly the same way. Your phone is automatically used to | track every other phone around you. It might not work for | whatever their air tag equivalent is though | caconym_ wrote: | I have not had any issues like this with mine, and I use them | all the time to find things. I would buy more if I had anything | else to attach them to. | myself248 wrote: | Tile didn't work well enough for stalking. | | I bought some Tiles and Trackrs and gave them to friends who | agreed to help me test their usefulness, pretending that they | had "stolen" these items from me. I would see if I could locate | them a few days later when I "noticed them missing". | | I got one ping from a Tile once when the friend had apparently | stopped for gas, but none from their house. And zero at all | from the Trackr. Apparently there just aren't enough users in | my area for the networks to accomplish much? | | By stealing battery from every iphone user and data from their | cellular plan, Apple has built a find-me network that actually | works. Therefore it also works for stalking. Therefore Apple is | getting the criticism. | filoleg wrote: | For me personally, I had to stop using my airtag (a singular | one), because I notice that my phone has started draining | battery much quicker than it was supposed to, for weeks on end. | I checked the battery management page, and it turns out that | the airtag functionality was draining most of it (despite my | airtag being always near me, pretty much). Neither software | updates nor disconnecting and re-pairing the airtag from | scratch helped. Once I completely disconnected the airtag, the | battery issue went completely away. | | I realize that this might not be a common experience and that | it could be just some particular quirk about how it works with | my phone specifically. But I gave up after that. | endisneigh wrote: | Samsung trackers do not work nearly as well imo. Or tile for | that matter. I've tried most of them and AirTags are clearly on | another level for better or worse | | I do think AirTags should have a button like the Samsung ones, | tho. | [deleted] | Spooky23 wrote: | They work great, it's just the network effects are smaller | for Samsung. | | For people at risk, it is meaningless. Your crazy stalker | will just drive around locations and confirm where you are | remotely. | | The whole controversy is both real and bullshit. It is very | trivial for people to get tracking devices for modest amounts | of money in high threat scenarios. | | I think the issue with AirTags is the less malevolent, but | creepy scenarios. And to be honest, the issue has existed for | years with "Find My Friends", which I'm sure is widely abused | by family members and others to follow people around. | endisneigh wrote: | They work ok, but it's inferior to AirTags specifically | because the network effects are (much) smaller. | | If you're using it to find stuff you want the largest | possible network | phkahler wrote: | >> Samsung trackers do not work nearly as well imo. | | Well, Apple Airtags use the massive network of iPhones to | report the location of nearby airtags to Apple. | legostormtroopr wrote: | endisneigh wrote: | Don't know why they're being downvoted when your point is | irrelevant - the Samsung tracker only uses Samsung Galaxy | devices specifically for the network | buran77 wrote: | Android phones don't intrinsically track tags, they need | software specifically installed for this. So almost none | of those Android phones can be used to track anything. On | the other hand all newer iPhones can track any AirTag out | of the box, in what's probably the single biggest | tracking network in the world. | kevinsundar wrote: | At least for family, create a free family sharing account and | add your wife. That'll silence the beeping when you're not | around. | ribosometronome wrote: | Apple gets a lot of focus on it that other companies do not. | | Ex. Headlines often focus on Apple when revealing some of | Foxconn's worst labor practices. But stories about Foxconn | using child labor to build Alexa devices, and the person who | blew the whistle on that being tortured and put in jail for | revealing it, went fairly under the radar in comparison. It's | definitely a good thin that unethical labor practices being | used to build our stuff is discussed, just the headlines and | initial focus might lead laymen to believe one American | hardware company is causing this, rather than most. | bloomark wrote: | > But stories about Foxconn using child labor to build Alexa | devices ... went fairly under the radar in comparison | | This specific instance might be true, I don't know. But it | seems incorrect to base an argument off Apple getting | less/more coverage than a company like Amazon. | aaomidi wrote: | With more power, comes more responsibility. | | Apple is going to always be under the magnifying glass | because they are just so much "bigger". | ribosometronome wrote: | For sure. I meant to add that sort of sentiment but spaced. | There is definitely a level of "poor Apple, lets break out | the tiniest violin for them". It's hard to cry over the | world's largest public corporation getting more scrutiny | than some others. | dannyr wrote: | Apple has scale. Tile has similar functionalities but it | doesn't have a large network that Apple's IPhone has. | | It's going to be very hard to use Tile to stalk people. | stefan_ wrote: | Apple coopted every iPhone into a global surveillance network | for the benefit of throwaway keychain tokens. _That 's why_. | jdminhbg wrote: | Every iPhone (and Android and dumbphone) was coopted into a | global surveillance network from the very beginning. | Andrew_nenakhov wrote: | Previously, it didn't help random creeps to find home | address of a girl he saw in a grocery store. Now, with | AirTags it is rather trivial. Thanks, Apple. | michaelt wrote: | To be fair to Apple, products like [1] - a battery- | powered GPS tracker with mobile data connection - have | been available for 10+ years. | | A 5-day battery life is useless for keeping track of your | bicycle, but more than enough for a stalker to find | someone's home. | | Of course, they were much less widely reported on by the | press - so perhaps less known by stalkers? And only | available via ebay, not off-the-shelf in reputable | retailers. | | [1] https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/304109556891 | jdminhbg wrote: | So trivial it never happens. | kube-system wrote: | I love my AirTags because they actually have a functional | tracking network. I've lost items outside the house with a Tile | tracker attached and it proved to be entirely worthless for | actually finding my stuff. They simply don't have a good | network. | beambot wrote: | They need to switch over to Helium's LoRa network, which has | vastly better coverage... | duskwuff wrote: | LoRa and LoRaWAN don't belong to Helium. They existed long | before it. | wyager wrote: | A) LoRa is proprietary so we wouldn't be better off on that | axis | | B) I don't trust the longevity of infrastructure financed | by a shitcoin | BoorishBears wrote: | Have things changed? | | https://youtu.be/nerQCrOam5U | willcipriano wrote: | This is a place for a generic open protocol. To have a real | internet of things we need some kind of DNS but for objects. | kube-system wrote: | The hard part is convincing anyone to use your open | protocol, when the people who are in the best position to | implement it are also the ones who would most benefit from | a closed-protocol. | Scoundreller wrote: | Bitcoin used to do this: low value and/or infrequent | transfers used to be free. | | Only charged money for big transfers and the high | frequency traders. | | Dunno why it stopped. Seemed sensible to reward hodlers | and incentivize use for microtransactions. Ultimately, | liquidity comes from being able to trade a big thing | easily for lots of small things. | duskwuff wrote: | > Bitcoin used to do this: low value and/or infrequent | transfers used to be free. | | Miners used to include zero-fee transactions in blocks | when there was space available. Nowadays, most blocks are | full or nearly so, so miners have a financial interest in | mining transactions with the highest fee-per-byte first | and ignoring anything which has a low or zero fee | attached. | | There was never any special handling for "infrequent" | transfers. | steelbrain wrote: | > This is a place for a generic open protocol. | | Not sure if you've seen but Apple opened the Find-My | network to other vendors: | https://www.apple.com/ee/newsroom/2021/04/apples-find-my- | net... | smoldesu wrote: | ...but didn't open the protocol to third parties. In | other words, it's as "open" as the lightning connector | is: "pay us $x for every product you ship, and we won't | sue you for using it" | | Apple's marketing must train in the Matrix for how good | they are at dodging bullets... | dylan604 wrote: | at the same time, you are using the Apple | network/infrastructure of iDevices that track that item | for you. Every Apple device that passes your lost product | helps find your product. Should they be doing that for | free? Serious question. | [deleted] | ohyeshedid wrote: | > Should they be doing that for free? Serious question. | | If they don't provide the network: what value do the | tags, you bought with money, provide? | dwighttk wrote: | If you buy from Apple they do provide the network. | | If you buy from 3rd party and 3rd party _doesn't_ pay | Apple, why should Apple provide the network? | kaladin-jasnah wrote: | An earlier commenter likened AirTags to DNS. Is DNS a | for-profit protocol? Does it need to be? | dwighttk wrote: | I don't think DNS is, but AirTags is... so maybe they | aren't...likenable? likencompatible? Licompatible? | ohyeshedid wrote: | I wasn't saying they should; and I'm not taking a side on | anything. I don't have enough information to properly | answer you. | | Are there third party tracking device manufacturers with | free access to these systems? | | Are you talking about stolen or bootleg goods? | | The latter is a much more complicated topic, for sure. | dylan604 wrote: | The question as asked seems pretty clear to me. If | Company A builds a product/service, why should Company B | be expected to utilize Company A's work without | compensation? | | What more information do you need? | smoldesu wrote: | Apple is free to charge whatever they want for the use of | their servers and infrastructure, and while it's not a | good look, they're also welcome to charge again for the | use of their intellectual property. However, that's not a | reason that third-parties shouldn't be able to access | that data. If I've got a Google Pixel in my pocket, the | cost is marginal for me to send an API request to Apple's | servers and use Find My elsewhere. Hell, Apple could | force third-party devices to enable Bluetooth pinging in | exchange for their use of the Find My network. It's | apparently been lucrative enough on iPhone, I see no | reasons besides "muh walled garden" that they shouldn't | extend the functionality to other users. | dylan604 wrote: | Sounds like you're thinking about how the first pill | costs $7 million to make, but pills 2-inf only cost | $0.02. Sure, it doesn't cost anything to wiggle some | electrons, but it took effort to build out the | infrastructure to do something when those electrons move. | It takes effort to maintain it as well. | | I'm able to see both sides. We all like free things, but | free things cost some body some thing some where. If the | vendor/maker of a thing needs to pay a license to make it | look free to the consumer, that doesn't seem egregious to | me. After all, they'll just roll that into the price of | the product. | smoldesu wrote: | Ultimately, I agree with you. My overall point though is | that opening the Find My network to other vendors _isn | 't_ the same as opening the protocol. What Apple does in | B2B sales is none of my concern. | dylan604 wrote: | I was really just playing devil's advocate. It just seems | like everyone expects things to be given away as charity. | Apple is not a 501(c), so if they come up with something, | it's because they think there's a revenue stream in it. | | The entire thing works so well precisely because there | are so many Apple devices in the wild, and Apple is | looking to capitalize on that. | smoldesu wrote: | They're welcome to do whatever they please. Doesn't | change the fact that they're the largest company in the | world though, nor does it exempt them from a bit of | criticism for being one of the most ruthless forces in | capitalism today. I don't think it's wrong to expect them | to set a good example for the thousands of organizations | that choose to follow their path. | jrochkind1 wrote: | The open protocol for universal surveillance of everyone | everywhere might not be _my_ first choice, but it would | make sense. | numpad0 wrote: | How is it going to be monetized is a problem. The cost is | basically negligible but not zero. | catlifeonmars wrote: | I wouldn't monetize directly, instead the cost could be | subsidized by services built on top of it. For example, | naming & discovery, durable log aggregation etc. | | Edit: spelling | r00fus wrote: | You expect Apple do make an open protocol? This is the role | of a government to mandate standards for their | jurisdictions. | | Of course, regulation is a bad word for a good number of | the electorate so this will never happen. | dfsegoat wrote: | Genuinely curious: | | What are other examples where specific protocols (open or | not) are mandated by regulation ? | paulmd wrote: | USB is a (closed!) protocol that's mandated by | regulation. Don't like what the USB-IF has done with | their data profiles/power profiles/etc? Prefer a lower- | cost connector that doesn't require cables to be hand- | assembled? Tough shit. | r00fus wrote: | The mandates are often things you don't see as a citizen, | but often on government contractors (a huge part of the | US economy). | | The number of RFCs that are required for basic things | like email, storage, security etc are essential standards | primarily because USG required contractors and vendors to | adhere to those standards. | micromacrofoot wrote: | Tile _still_ isn 't getting harped for stalking. I used a Tile | to track down a backpack thief 5 years ago, could have easily | been a person I was stalking. | | Apple's getting a lot of flack because they're enormous, | consumers are more aware, and they have a better network... but | the fact that they did _any_ stalker alerting is beyond | anything the existing products in the market have done. I 'd | guess the product designers at Apple are probably constantly | frustrated with this reality. | izacus wrote: | Tile also isn't nearly as sensitive because it needs people | to install their app to opt-in to their tracking network. | | Apple coopted every single phone into a tracker essentially | creating a biggest people following and tracking network in | the world - plus they use UWB which massively more accurate | than what Tile uses. | | What Apple created would be Facebooks, NSAs and pretty much | every spying entities wet dream to get fingers on. | micromacrofoot wrote: | Yeah I get it, but Tile's network is still good enough to | find someone's house in a somewhat densely populated area. | I've done it. | | >What Apple created would be Facebooks, NSAs and pretty | much every spying entities wet dream to get fingers on. | | The government already has this with cell phones, no? | Spooky23 wrote: | > What Apple created would be Facebooks, NSAs and pretty | much every spying entities wet dream to get fingers on. | | No, Apple made it available to you. Police and intelligence | agencies can buy this data from various entities or | subpoena it. | sephlietz wrote: | Maybe this a dumb question, but is the AirTag configured to | Notify When Left Behind except when left at your home? I've | never heard an AirTag beep before. | aaroninsf wrote: | I have also not experienced beeping. I do get the occasional | alert from family member tag crosstalk but it feels like this | is improving. | | But the lack of explicit Family cross-view when other devices | automagically have it is nigh unto unforgivably bad. I have | heard arguments made about privacy but they are not that | coherent. Expose an "opt this device out of Family sharing" | during config option or whatever. | | That friends have attached two different tags to their kid's | backpack so both spouses can track is total fail. :| | pajko wrote: | So this is a failed product then. Too good for tracking because | it can be abused. While the new version alerts the thieves in the | intended use case. Should have been given a 10x-50x price tag | right from the start, to make it less available and affordable | for malicious activities. | mckeed wrote: | Finding stolen items isn't the only use-case, and you still | have 8-24 hours to track the thief before it starts beeping. | gjs278 wrote: | duxup wrote: | Not a big surprise. | | I can buy a lot of things and modify it to do bad things. | | AirTag is an interesting choice as if you want to REALLY track | someone I think an AirTag is a wonky choice. Very much a cheap-o | 'best effort' kind of tracking. | rootusrootus wrote: | I think AirTags are only the right choice for casual stalkers | who haven't really thought their plan all the way through. | Anybody who is properly motivated will easily find better | options. | duxup wrote: | That and parents who only kinda want to track their kids bags | ... mostly ... I guess. | rootusrootus wrote: | Right about now I wish I had pasted one to my son's iPad. | Of course, I wish the iPad just had that function built in | so it wouldn't need a booger attached to the outside. | duxup wrote: | Well you can have the iPad share its location ... that's | a thing. | | How you do it depends on if your iPad is setup under a | different apple ID or not (still can do it either way). | | My father in law who is older and prone to wandering off, | I put an airtag on him while on vacation temporarily when | we were out and about, and set his phone to share his | location to the whole family all the time just to be | save. It's very handy that way. | rootusrootus wrote: | > Well you can have the iPad share its location ... | that's a thing. | | As a member of my family account, his iPad does share its | location. But only for 24 hours after the battery dies, | at which point Apple will no longer show you were it was | last found. And since it's only a WiFi iPad, it'll only | report when attached to a network it knows about. | | And even in perfect circumstances, it doesn't work worth | a crap. My daughter 'lost' her iPad last night and asked | me to beep it. So I did. "Find My" said "playing sound" | for maybe 10 seconds and then just stopped, without any | further notice. It told me it last saw the iPad two hours | previously, so I told my daughter it may have run out of | battery. She found it a couple minutes later in my wife's | office. 80% battery. In our house, attached to our WiFi. | She came up and played with it a while sitting behind me | in my office. "Find My" still couldn't see it. This | morning, about 10AM, while my daughter was in school and | her iPad was sitting on the charger, it started beeping | to be found. LMAO. Thanks Apple, for _nothing_. | | They should put a rechargeable AirTag in the iPad | somewhere. With all the usual features. Then I could tell | you where my son's iPad is right now, and I could make it | noisy, even though the battery died a few days ago and he | doesn't know where it is. We think it might have gotten | swiped by the neighbor kid, but we'll probably never find | out since it's a game of eliminating possibilities, not | positively finding the device. Since he didn't mention | that it was missing until more than 24 hours after it was | last seen, I can't even say for sure he lost it in our | house somewhere. Such a misfeature. | duxup wrote: | Yeah good point. A built in AirTag would be handy for | zero power events. | Ancapistani wrote: | My daughters' iPads both have LTE and Location Sharing | enabled to our family profile set up through my iCloud | account. | | My eldest is 13, and we don't really see a reason for her | to have a cellphone yet; it's coming fairly soon, sure, | but for now the 11" iPad Pro that I passed down to her is | a much more functional device for her and carries less | drama risk as she's excluded from her peers' SMS group | chat where it seems like the majority of that sort of | thing emanates. | | When she does have a need for a cellphone, it'll likely | be one of the relatively inexpensive iPhone SEs or an | older used iPhone that's mostly useful for calls and | texts. | andrepew wrote: | Not hard for a non-technical person to remove the speaker. | Housing pops right open with a small flathead screwdriver. Then | you just remove the speaker's magnet, no desoldering or anything | like that required. Took 5 minutes. | | I did it to one of mine to use it to track my bicycle if it ever | gets stolen. | nomel wrote: | If the thief has an iPhone, they'll still be alerted that the | tracker is following them. If they move their phone around on | your bike, they'll be able to find it, within several inches, | with the NFC identification feature that gives the last four | digits of the owners phone number. | | Maybe Apple's campaign is working: | https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/feb/26/apple-doe... | pinot wrote: | Yeah but at least when I loan my bicycle to my friend it | won't beep constantly. | nomel wrote: | Absolutely. With all the air tags in my family, I think I'm | completely desensitized to the beeping and notifications. I | really doubt I would notice if I was being stalked. | andrepew wrote: | I'm banking on a bike theft being a crime of opportunity and | not necessarily being done by someone who has thought things | through completely. | | But against a professional thief an AirTag probably won't do | much. | matthew-wegner wrote: | I don't even have _that_ expensive of a bike, but I have two | on mine | | There's a 3D-printed housing for one that sits between the | frame and the water bottle holder. If someone does ever steal | my bike, and checks for AirTags, I expect them to find this | one | | I have a second wedged inside the seat cavity. You have to | take the seat off the seatpost rails to remove it | | It's pretty common for thieves to have a lot of stolen stuff | together, so if there is a second stalker notification I'm | hoping they assume it's from another stolen item in their | possession (having already removed the water bottle AirTag) | KIFulgore wrote: | I was going to say, there are valid security use-cases for | doing this. | [deleted] | dschuessler wrote: | I wonder if this modification could at least be made harder by | having some kind of heartbeat. Build in a microphone whose sole | purpose is to receive inaudible, high frequency impulses (maybe a | hash signal?) from the speaker every once in a while. If the | signal does not arrive in time, the AirTag shuts off. | | Of course, no measure can beat physical access to the device but | you could at least make the tampering about as expensive as | building your own device from scratch. | causi wrote: | It wouldn't be hard to make a silent container for an airtag | that'd let the audible signal reach the mic but not the alarm. | Personally I think they'll eventually have to link every Airtag | to a real identity so anyone detecting one knows who it really | belongs to. | rootusrootus wrote: | > have to link every Airtag to a real identity | | Isn't it already linked to your Apple account? Take the | AirTag to the cops, they ask Apple who it belongs to. | iso1631 wrote: | Not sure why you're being downvoted, valid question. I | don't know how they work, but I assume they are linked to | an account. | | Why even involve the cops - if you have an airtag, you | should be able to scan it's code and it reveals the account | holder's name. | rootusrootus wrote: | > Why even involve the cops - if you have an airtag, you | should be able to scan it's code and it reveals the | account holder's name. | | That's easy. If you find my house keys, I'd rather you | couldn't just look up my address. | | I don't know if Apple makes it easy or not, but I'd | certainly like to be able to push a notification to the | AirTag owner if I have found one of their things. At | least so I can send them a message "I dropped this off at | the local police station so you can pick it up" etc, or | something along those lines. | AlexAndScripts wrote: | I'm sure that would get some idiots, but alt accounts | aren't difficult. If someone is actively going to the | effort of buying, setting up, placing, and using an | airpod to stalk someone they can go to the effort to hide | their identity. | [deleted] | causi wrote: | I had a buddy try that just last week after he was alerted | to one under his car. They laughed at him and did nothing | but write a report. | kazinator wrote: | > _To make it harder for stalkers to abuse them, Apple included | (and has since upgraded) several safety features that will alert | someone to the presence of a nearby AirTag that's not their own, | including an audible beep._ | | Is this saying that Apple is relying on the unknown tag to | announce itself by emitting a beep, and is that true? | | I think you want your management device (e.g. phone) to alert you | to the presence of such a thing, not that thing itself. | | (Of course, you still need to find it.) | throwaway2048 wrote: | Not everyone has an iOS device, or bluetooth/wifi enabled even | if they do. | rootusrootus wrote: | > Is this saying that Apple is relying on the unknown tag to | announce itself by emitting a beep, and is that true? | | Not by itself, no. If you have an iPhone, you get notifications | on your phone whether the AirTag ever beeps or not. | duxup wrote: | Also there's an Android app that does the same thing. | equon_ wrote: | I removed the speaker myself and hid one on my bike, I am super | happy with it in Paris. Every minute its precise location is | shared through Find My network and I get an alert when the bike | is far from me when it is not at home. | rootusrootus wrote: | I guess I don't get it. For the price of an AirTag, you can buy a | more capable tracker with GPS and mobile data. And it won't be | notifying the trackee that it's there. The AirTag seems like a | downgrade. | TuringNYC wrote: | Can you name some alternatives with a decent network? | | If the item has its own mobile network, i'm expecting an extra | $20/mo for a phone plan (at which point, comparing to a fixed | cost of an AirTag isnt valid.) | | If it doesnt have a mobile network and relies on the mesh, | then, is there any mesh available? Apple's mesh is global and | pervasive. | | And if it provides neither mobile support nor mesh, it isnt | useful for anything except lost keys in a house. | mullen wrote: | > If the item has its own mobile network, i'm expecting an | extra $20/mo for a phone plan (at which point, comparing to a | fixed cost of an AirTag isn't valid.) | | Some phone plans will give you additional data only sim card | and only charge you the cost of the bandwidth (Google Fi does | this). You can also get data only plans that are intended to | used with Vending Machines and IoT devices (I guess a | tracking device on the Internet is a IoT device). | ribosometronome wrote: | Yeah, looking on Amazon now, the ones referenced that are | $29.99 or lower all seem to require an additional | subscription. Obviously, AirTags require an Apple device, but | still function with phones as old as the 6s, which can be had | for under $100. So even assuming you want an AirTag and need | to acquire a phone, the AirTags come out considerably cheaper | after just a few months. | TuringNYC wrote: | Well, i'm not counting the phone (pretty much ANY tracker | requires a phone/computer to view results) which I assume | is a given. I'm specifically speaking about the phone | _PLAN_ which is where the real money goes. A phone service | plan will cost $20 /mo in the US easily, so thats $250/yr | forever. At this point, tracking luggage/bicycles isnt cost | effective...the tracker starts to become more expensive | than the tracked. | | The AirTags are awesome because ANY phone creates a mesh | for them to broadcast. | | UPDATE: per sister comment, see | https://www.hologram.io/pricing/flexible-data | gruez wrote: | >i'm expecting an extra $20/mo for a phone plan | | I'm sure you can get prepaid/IOT plans for less, eg. | https://www.hologram.io/pricing/flexible-data | good8675309 wrote: | Thought this would be good for a solar IoT camera then | realized it would be $400/per gig. Yikes, though it's good | for extremely low bandwidth devices. | TuringNYC wrote: | Thank you for sharing this, this looks fantastic! I wasnt | aware of this and I rescind my previous comment! | [deleted] | stefan_ wrote: | Yeah but they need, you know, _GPS_. Which is an incredibly | faint signal that is hopelessly attenuated by just about any | indoors space. | r00fus wrote: | A downgrade for a stalker maybe. Honestly I use them and | haven't had a single false positive ping. | aldebran wrote: | Leave BT off for a few hours. :-) | r00fus wrote: | Hmm - I guess I simply don't do that (nor does any of my | family). Any reason you need to turn off BT constantly? | paxys wrote: | You absolutely can not. There are no GPS trackers for <$30 with | an ~unlimited battery life and no subscription fees. | rootusrootus wrote: | And there aren't any AirTags with the ability to track | without notifying the target they are there. Trade-offs. | | The point is valid, though. AirTags do not enable something | which wasn't already trivial to accomplish. At best it just | makes it more visible to the general public, but stalkers | have known how to use inexpensive GPS trackers for many | years. | | What's dishonest is the media pretending that this is some | new capability that didn't already exist. | privacyking wrote: | It only notifies the target if they own a iPhone, or have | downloaded an app specifically to do this. | jcrawfordor wrote: | GPS trackers anywhere near the size and cost of the AirTag are | going to have a battery life of a few days at best. You can get | into multi-year battery lives on cellular GPS trackers but | you're going to need large batteries and aggressive use of | deep-sleep mode, e.g. check-in only once per day. | endisneigh wrote: | It won't last a year on a $1 battery nor will it be as small. | bin_bash wrote: | A Tile will, so will SmartThings | rolobio wrote: | Tile does not have nearly the network that Apple does. I | attached an AirTag to an electric scooter, which I ended up | returning. I forgot to remove the AirTag; I've been able to | track the scooter over hundreds of miles with quick updates | (even driving down a freeway). I've been having a fun time | checking in on the scooter for months now. | | I have a Tile attached to a generator at my house. Since | I've disabled Tile on my phone in favor of AirTag, my | generator hasn't been detected in over 31 days. Even with | neighbors walking past my house constantly. | jdminhbg wrote: | > I attached an AirTag to an electric scooter, which I | ended up returning. I forgot to remove the AirTag; I've | been able to track the scooter over hundreds of miles | with quick updates (even driving down a freeway). I've | been having a fun time checking in on the scooter for | months now. | | This describes how 99% of these "AirTags Used In Stalking | Incident" stories come about. | rolobio wrote: | Honestly I was worried I would have a knock at my door | from this. The AirTag will make it quite clear who owns | it. | | But I expect someone familiar with returned items will | say "Oh, someone forgot to remove their AirTag again. | Throw it in the garbage." So hopefully no knocks at my | door. | quenix wrote: | As far as I know there is no way to determine the owner | of an AirTag. | BiteCode_dev wrote: | > I attached an AirTag to an electric scooter, which I | ended up returning. I forgot to remove the AirTag; I've | been able to track the scooter over hundreds of miles | with quick updates (even driving down a freeway). I've | been having a fun time checking in on the scooter for | months now. | | That story alone is horrifying and a reason by itself | this thing should be illegal. Also, what you are doing is | not ok. | rolobio wrote: | Should I drive over a thousand miles to pull it off? What | do you expect me to do? I'm not sure what will happen if | I disown it, it will probably attempt to be owned by | whoever walks by? Can I disown an AirTag without being | near it? And if someone who works for Fedex suddenly owns | the AirTag, has the situation improved? | | I really don't know what you expect me to do. I did this | by accident. I thought it was funny. | BiteCode_dev wrote: | If one person's daughter bough a scooter then learned the | previous owner kept following were she was going with it | for months, I doubt most people would find it funny. | | The fact you did this by accident kinda prove my point | people should not be trusted with this tech, and it | should be banned to be used without a licence. | rolobio wrote: | Rather than ban the device, punish the behavior. Apple | has made it quite easy for anyone with an Apple device to | notice if they are being tracked. Why punish someone | tracking their scooter as if they were tracking some | "daughter"? | | GPS tracking of cars is legal in many place. Those | devices don't report their existence to the owner. | Perhaps we should start there? | BiteCode_dev wrote: | That didn't seem to work well for guns in the US. | | Besides, this tech is opening a tracking pandora box with | social and political consequences that we can't predict. | | I'm for banning without a licence on this one. | FredPret wrote: | What stoppedyou from buying a GPS tracker before? | BiteCode_dev wrote: | AirTags are cheaper and more powerful than GPS tracker. | Also more known, and don't have a stigma. | rolobio wrote: | I think banning objects goes about as well as banning | drugs did. | BiteCode_dev wrote: | AirTags are not addictive and are not helping people in | social situation or to have sex. | pmoriarty wrote: | The technology itself is unstoppable. | | At most widespread use of it could be delayed until | something smaller and even harder to detect is invented. | endisneigh wrote: | A tile doesn't use mobile data and have gps and is inferior | to an AirTag anyway | bin_bash wrote: | I've been using Tile for years. It's inferior, yes, but | it's definitely good enough for spying. | endisneigh wrote: | The parent comment is talking about using mobile data and | gps - not sure why you even brought up the tile. | | Tile is inferior to an AirTag if you seriously want to | stalk someone. The network is orders of magnitude | smaller. Don't know why anyone who owns an Apple device | would bother with it at this point | andrepew wrote: | What tracker is comparable in price? An AirTag is $30 with no | other monthly costs. | | Genuinely asking, I would love to find a better solution. | rootusrootus wrote: | A quick search on Amazon for 'gps tracker' will yield at | least one option on the first page for $29.99. GSM for | communications. Not as small as an AirTag, but 1.5 inches by | 0.9 by 0.6 inches isn't exactly huge either. | | A legitimate point is that the battery life isn't great. But | that's not too hard to solve, if you tolerate a little more | space for a bigger battery. | | I'm sure there are even better options out there, that's just | what I could come up with in under a minute. For anybody with | more than idle curiosity, I imagine there are some pretty | clever solutions available. | nomel wrote: | > A legitimate point is that the battery life isn't great. | | A big difference is that these GPS trackers broadcast their | position continuously, wherever there is cell coverage. The | AirTags only update their position when an Apple device | (made after 2015) is within the relatively short bluetooth | range of the tag. | [deleted] | TuringNYC wrote: | >> The AirTags only update their position when an Apple | device (made after 2015) is within the relatively short | bluetooth range of the tag, with an internet connection. | | Luckily the "only" is pretty good. There are Apple | devices almost everywhere i'd need to track a lost | bike/car/schoolbag. | RegnisGnaw wrote: | Monthly fee? | gjs278 wrote: | exhilaration wrote: | The last time this came up on HN someone suggested this: | https://lightbug.io/. I've gotta say it looks amazing, the | smaller unit has a battery life measured in months, the big | one in years. | gtm1260 wrote: | There are plenty of trackers, but they require monthly | subscriptions! | nicce wrote: | Exactly. Somehow need to send that data. | diebeforei485 wrote: | T-mobile has a cellular tracker for $5/month, with no device | fee. Over the course of one year, this is very comparable. | k8sToGo wrote: | You also need an Apple device.so it is not just $30 | spike021 wrote: | Your comment is akin to "which came first, the chicken or | the egg?" | | I highly doubt there's (much of) a market looking to buy | AirTags without already owning the pre-requisite Apple | hardware. | k8sToGo wrote: | Maybe. But if I buy a third party GPS thing for $50 that | also works with my Android, PC etc. then it is cheaper | than getting the apple devices plus airtag. | Dylan16807 wrote: | Except that many uses don't need a phone at all, and | android hardware could give you an acceptable experience | for most of the remaining uses, on par with many iphone | models. | jfengel wrote: | I would. I own a Tile, and it's limited by the relatively | smallish network, at least out in the burbs where I live. | Having every iPhone in the vicinity conscripted into the | network would be good for me... even though I don't | particularly want an iPhone. | | Mind you, I only ever use it to locate my wayward cat, so | perhaps my use case isn't the most common. I don't seem | to find any other need for it, though perhaps I should | attach one to my keys. | nikanj wrote: | But it won't get you headlines. "Apple devices used by sex- | slave kidnapping killer clowns" gets plenty of clicks | barkerja wrote: | I recently replaced my dog's collar -- which had GPS with LTE-M | -- with an AirTag simply because it saves me money, I get about | a ~year battery life and I find it's just as reliable. | seshagiric wrote: | A number of iPhone users are reporting instances of unknown | object tracking their location. | https://discussions.apple.com/thread/253235422 | | Apple support does not provide any details about the issue. | Gigachad wrote: | This sort of thing has happened to me but it was just my bfs | airpods which triggered the alert. | exabrial wrote: | Apple's Airtag's are a solution looking for a problem. You can't | use them to "track lost items" while alerting thieves to their | presence. Conversely you can't allow thieves to scan for their | presence when they steal something. Their intended use case is | pretty useless "find your stuff you've lost" I think, as it | covers a small market segment compared to "LoJack, but cheap and | fancy like Apple". | | The solution requires a lot more governance, and puts Apple in | charge of a "court system" with a lot of support cases. | | * Every Airtag must have a registered owner. People are limited | to the number of tags they're allowed to purchase and use. | | * If an Airtag is lost by its owner, they can request it be | located. If the Airtag is a significant distance from the owner, | Apple must intervene. | | * Apple must ask the user if they suspect the article is stolen. | If Yes, the user can provide a police report and will be provided | the location. | | * If they suspect they misplaced the item, but not stolen, things | get complicated. | | * If the location is mobile since the owner departed the tag, and | is tailing other Android/Apple iPhones, Apple will probably need | to tell the owner too bad so sad, get a police report first. | | * If its location is static since it departed contact with the | owner's phone, Apple makes a judgement call as to if they believe | it's a stalking situation. If the tag is tailing another | Android/iPhone user, Apple should allow that person to have a | setting on their phone to passively allow this case, allowing | users to consent to being tracked. | | There are other obvious edge cases, but I think this at least a | start to how this useful technology could avoid stalking but | provide for a wider variety of use cases. | | And of course this breaks the e2e promise that Apple made, which | _prevents_ them from getting NSLs when the government wants to | track somebody... so, I don't see a good way out of this. | Gigachad wrote: | For me the airtags are really useful for keys/wallet. They | aren't stolen but are just lost. I somewhat agree that the rest | of the solution needs to come from government since Apple has | done their best to prevent abuse but it isn't possible. | | It should be a serious crime to track someone without their | knowledge. Something that police take seriously. | pkulak wrote: | I've got a tag on my bike and it's pretty dumb that it starts | beeping at the thief if it ever gets stolen. Why do we have to | gimp everything to make it difficult to use them to break the | law? Isn't enforcement of laws how we're supposed to make people | not break the law? | TheSoftwareGuy wrote: | >Isn't enforcement of laws how we're supposed to make people | not break the law? | | It is the method of last resort, really. Ideally, people have | enough success in their life that they do not have to resort to | crime. If that fails we have some other protections: we lock | our doors, etc. Lastly, if people still commit crime we try to | prosecute them | RIMR wrote: | The problem is that without the beep, these devices are no | different than your standard GPS tracker that you could use to | track someone without their consent. So it beeps so indemnify | Apple from that use case. | | And for good reason. These devices are already getting popular | with abusive spouses. It's worth planning for the worst case | scenarios for these things, because they are real. | errcorrectcode wrote: | Anecdotal regional issue: | | I had an AirTag on my AirPod Pro's case that was stolen. I | immediately notified Austin's police (APD) as I could see where | it was going. Unfortunately, due to understaffing of 100-200 | police officers and detectives, most calls unrelated to imminent | threats of injury or death aren't being handle for days or ever. | So, it's open-season on packages and property because APD can't | or won't do its job, even if you tell them where stolen property | is located. As long as a crime is nonviolent or the threat of | violence has passed (with the exception of rape), ATX has the | security measures of a third-world country. I met a UT campus | police officer who refuses to live in or bring his family to ATX | because of the risks and de facto lawlessness. | jkestner wrote: | Lot of assertions without citations in this thread. HN can do | better. | | If you've never had something stolen before, let me flesh out | your data point. The police almost never investigate theft of | private property--if they do, it's when there's serial theft in | an area. That's anywhere in the US, in any year. They're only | there as a notary of sorts for your claim to the insurance | company. | | It'd be cool if police used the surveillance tech built into | our products for our benefit, but that's not how the world | works. They're not standing by for hot pursuit of your earbuds. | TameAntelope wrote: | Once you take the emotional factor out of theft, it's | basically solved by the concept of insurance. Just replace | your things, and you should be mostly whole again. | toss1 wrote: | Yup, can confirm. Had $20K++ worth of stuff stolen from my | shop. Police were there only to take notes, file a report, | and send me the report # for the insurance claim. the officer | didn't even ask any interesting questions, and offered no | hope when I suggested maybe they could check around come | likely locations where it might be. He was just acting as a | stenographer with a badge. I totally get that they are | overwhelmed and have to prioritize. | dheera wrote: | Same, I had $4K of camera equipment stolen in the Bay Area and | police just closed the case. | | I wouldn't be surprised if the next 10 car smashings were the | same crooks because the police department won't do its job. | They keep letting the crooks go, and we wonder why there are so | many thefts in SF these days. Well maybe don't let the crooks | go! | | That said though I wonder if AirPods are having success in | other countries with more competent police. | | For the US I really wish we could commercialize some kind of | tracker that releases fart spray, honey, flour, ink, glue, and | other annoying substances if stolen. If the police won't do | their job we need to do it ourselves. | stadium wrote: | I once wired a cheap 120db siren to a 9v battery and a | pressure switch with the default "on" position. Packed it in | a plastic pint sized ice cream container with a hole drilled | in the bottom for the switch. Packed that full of rocks for | weight, with the switch pointed down towards the floor. | Packed it all inside an Amazon box with a hole cutout for the | switch. | | Lift the box, and immediate piercing sound blast. For < $10 | in parts off AliExpress. Unit price could be a couple bucks | max at volume. | orhmeh09 wrote: | Be careful with creating traps -- booby traps are illegal in | most jurisdictions. | mh- wrote: | and ironically, this is definitely the sort of criminal act | the DA _would_ go after. | OnlineGladiator wrote: | > For the US I really wish we could commercialize some kind | of tracker that releases fart spray, honey, flour, ink, glue, | and other annoying substances if stolen. | | I assume you've seen this already, but just in case you | haven't. | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3c584TGG7jQ | andrewmunsell wrote: | Mark Rober's videos are always entertaining, but I wonder | the legality of audio/video recording in supposedly an | unaware person's house. I assume he has this figured out, | but it also makes me wonder whether the "thieves" are | actually plants. | paxys wrote: | You just described every police department in the country. | iqanq wrote: | pyronik19 wrote: | But hey lets defund the police! | kbos87 wrote: | The unfortunate truth is that police have better things to | spend their time on. Heck, I had a nighttime home invasion/$4k+ | of goods stolen in Boston 9 months ago and as far as I can tell | the police couldn't even be bothered to get their hands on the | security camera footage from a neighboring convenience store | after I told them there were cameras outside. | rootusrootus wrote: | That's definitely over the line. Theft of a laptop or bicycle | is one thing, but home invasion is a violent crime, and | should justify a far more significant amount of attention. | autoexec wrote: | > The unfortunate truth is that police have better things to | spend their time on. | | From what I can "better things" is mostly pulling people over | (legitimately or otherwise) in order to hand out tickets to | raise revenue. Catching criminals is what we're told they do, | stealing from the public, making money, and protecting only | the most wealthy seems to be their real job. | tharne wrote: | > Unfortunately, due to understaffing of 100-200 police | officers and detectives, most calls unrelated to imminent | threats of injury or death aren't being handle for days or | ever. | | Roughly 18 months ago folks were demanding that cities "defund | the police", and that's what we got. I think we're going to | have to re-live the cycle seen in the latter half of the 20th | century, where we allowed crime to skyrocket, finally clamped | down on it in the 1990's, had an urban revival for the next few | decades, then got complacent and rolled back the very same | policies that made the cities safe again. And 'round and 'round | we go. | jjeaff wrote: | Hopefully, this time, we won't overcorrect. We need to clamp | down on crime without crushing the underprivileged under the | fist of heavy handed policing. | | Policies like stop and frisk really do work at reducing | crime. But they also increase the abuse of civil liberties. | Especially in those who don't have the resources to fight | back in court. | | And who pays when people do fight back and get huge | settlements for trampling on their rights? No, it's not the | cops that perpetrated the abuse. It's the tax payers. | | Countries like China and Singapore have very low crime rates. | But I don't think we should emulate all their practices. In | Singapore, you can get lashed with a cane for grafitti. So, | they don't have much graffiti. | | We need smarter policing, not necessarily more police. Even | in my area, I keep hearing about a shortage of police, and | yet, I keep seeing police here just sitting in their same | little speed trap hiding places waiting to catch someone and | write a ticket. | downrightmike wrote: | I wonder if we'll see higher civil asset forfeiture by police | to make up for the funding loss. | chimeracoder wrote: | > I wonder if we'll see higher civil asset forfeiture by | police to make up for the funding loss. | | What funding loss? Total spending on police increased in | 2021 and 2022 in every major city across the country. | alfalfasprout wrote: | Yeah, and notice how a good chunk of the people asking to | defund the police are from already very safe neighborhoods or | very young and never had to live through lots of crime. I'm | all for police reforms (eg; body-cam requirements, more | training) but the whole defund the police movement is | downright dangerous. | autoexec wrote: | I agree, "defunding" (at least when it actually means more | than reform) is more of an emotional outburst than a | solution to anything. People have a right to be emotional | over what policing has become, but kicking and screaming | alone is counterproductive. If we really want to reform the | police we're going to have to be prepared to invest more | money into it than ever since we'll need massive amounts of | training, data collection, firings following by new hires, | and oversight. None of that is going to be cheap. | josephcsible wrote: | > I'm all for police reforms (eg; body-cam requirements | | A lot of rabidly anti-police people are actually against | body cams. | aidenn0 wrote: | My friend is a cop, and he _loves_ his body cam. He has | had dozens of complaints against him refuted trivially | with body-cam footage (and prior to that at least one | serious complaint refuted by the camera in his patrol | car). | | I think most of the anti-police complaints are due to | selective releasing of body-cam footage. We are | approaching the point where the court of public opinion | swings against officers when potentially exculpatory | body-cam footage is conspicuously missing; perhaps that | will help assuage those concerns. | jjeaff wrote: | If I was a crooked cop, sure, why not have a body cam. I | get to control when to turn it on and off anyway. If I | want to do something bad, whoops, I forgot to turn it on. | What are you going to do? | tharne wrote: | It's true. More often than not, the body cams corroborate | the officer's side of the story. | not2b wrote: | From what I've read, they are against body cams that | police officers can selectively turn on and off, because | they can surveil everyone but still hide their | misconduct. | dicknuckle wrote: | You do realize "defund the police" means diverting funds | that would usually be spent on tons of military grade gear | they don't need, and using those funds on community | improvement programs, right? | plorkyeran wrote: | No, we didn't. The police were not actually defunded. | chimeracoder wrote: | > Roughly 18 months ago folks were demanding that cities | "defund the police", and that's what we got. | | It's literally not. Every major city in the country | _increased_ total funding for policing. Minneapolis was the | only city that voted to defund the police, but ultimately | even that was reversed before it ever went into effect. | shmatt wrote: | Except police funding is at an all time high[1] | | If anything, I would blame the common sighting of said | officers sitting in their cars playing Pokemon | | [1] https://www.austinmonitor.com/wp- | content/uploads/2020/06/FIX... | Hasu wrote: | Everyone keeps citing this year's budget, which was imposed | on Austin by the state government after the police budget | was cut by 1/3rd in 2020. | | Austin DID defund the police, but was forced to refund the | police. | spywaregorilla wrote: | Funding went up | not2b wrote: | No, because the calls to "defund the police" were not acted | on. | | Taking lead out of gasoline may have done more to reduce | urban crime than any police measure, see | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead%E2%80%93crime_hypothesis | for lots more on this. | everdrive wrote: | chimeracoder wrote: | > I wonder why they're understaffed? Perhaps someone defunded | them. | | This meme keeps popping up without basis. No major city in | the US actually decreased funding for the police overall in | the last two years. | | In this case, the APD budget for 2021-2022 was increased from | $309.7 million (2020-2021) to $443 million, a whopping 43% | increase. | jen20 wrote: | > I met a UT campus police officer who refuses to live in or | bring his family to ATX because of the risks and de facto | lawlessness. | | I live in Downtown Austin, and this kind of picture simply does | not fit with my day-to-day experience of Austin. | uoaei wrote: | If you ask a lifeguard what they fear, they'll say drowning. | | Cops are not objective sources of reality, neither is anyone | else. More than a few grains of salt need to be taken when | cops say stuff because they're steeped in a very different | life than the average citizen. | orhmeh09 wrote: | Not necessarily more dangerous, either --- jobs like line | cook, delivery driver are more dangerous than police work. | kemayo wrote: | Since people are downvoting the parent, check out | https://advisorsmith.com/data/most-dangerous-jobs/ | | Near as I can tell, there are good statistics available | from the BLS about fatal on-job accidents, but not so | good for definitions of "dangerous" that also include | non-fatal injuries. | | If we're talking pure fatalities, policing _is_ dangerous | (it 's on that list), but it's _much_ less dangerous than | a bunch of other professions... such that you 're about | 2.3x more likely to die on-job as a delivery driver than | as a police officer. | thebean11 wrote: | > ATX has the security measures of a third-world country | | That's a pretty dramatic way to describe police not wanting to | spend resources to get your $200 headphones back.. | mrits wrote: | It is spending resources to catch a criminal. Very unlikely | this loser is just stealing once and going back to being a | decent citizen. | thebean11 wrote: | It depends, if he just found some AirPods on the ground and | decided to keep them, I actually think it's very likely. | holistio wrote: | What's the threshold over which you believe crime is no | longer okay? | | AirPods Max? Only $549. A MacBook? Only $2000. A car? Only | $20000. | | Does someone have to burn my house down for it to be | worthwhile for the police? | rootusrootus wrote: | There are thresholds at which it becomes a felony, so that | might be an answer to your question. Otherwise we have to | ask it the other way as well -- should the police send out | a detective if your 99 cent fidget spinner goes missing? | josephcsible wrote: | > There are thresholds at which it becomes a felony, so | that might be an answer to your question. | | Are you saying that police shouldn't bother investigating | crimes that aren't felonies? Why even have misdemeanors | at all then? | thebean11 wrote: | Most people who get in trouble for misdemeanors are | observed by a police officer directly (drunk driving, | speeding, vandalism etc). They usually aren't | "investigated".. | mbesto wrote: | Believe it or not, these thresholds have effectively | existed in the US forever. It's why we have small claims | courts, misdemeanors vs felonies, traffic violations, etc. | | > What's the threshold over which you believe crime is no | longer okay? | | You completely missed the parent's point. It's not that | they don't think crime should be "no longer be okay", it | was addressing the the grandparent's point of "we're living | in a third world country because my $200 AirPods got | stolen" is simply out of touch with reality. | | > Does someone have to burn my house down for it to be | worthwhile for the police? | | In third world countries this is pretty much how it works. | As an American, going to Brazil or South Africa (for | example), you're basically told "don't wear/carry anything | of value". It's not that there is a _chance_ that you 'll | get mugged, it's that _it 's likely_ it'll happen. I live | in Austin and carry my AirPods on me all of the time. The | likelihood that I experience what the OP experienced is so | unlikely that it rarely crosses my mind. The grandparent's | comment is hyperbolic drivel. | thebean11 wrote: | I never said it was okay to steal anything. It's just not | obviously a good use of taxpayer resources to hunt down | something with such a low value. I don't claim to know | where that threshold is, but it's probably above $200. | | Conversely, let's say I accuse an Uber driver of stealing a | $1 bill I left in his car, is that a good use of police | time? Where do you draw the line? | e4e78a06 wrote: | Capturing and punishing thieves has a deterring effect on | other thieves. Police spending resources to get "your $200 | headphones back" saves more than just the $200 headphones, | since usually thieves are repeat offenders and it discourages | would-be thieves from becoming thieves. If you think about | it, if a police officer makes $100/h you could conceivably | make the case that catching a single thief could potentially | save local taxpayers who had stuff stolen the officer's full | time salary for an entire week. I'd say that's worth it. | | Take a look at this phone thief at a concert [1]. | | [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBb33bKG1hQ | tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: | Having a working law enforcement system that people can | trust also means people can rely on the law to be enforced | to protect them, instead of taking the law into their own | hands. | FredPret wrote: | That's wild. The first reason we even have a government is for | police and judges. | Tr3nton wrote: | asimilator wrote: | > I immediately notified Austin's police (APD) as I could see | where it was going. | | Was the tracking good enough to reasonably narrow it down to a | single person? | | I think people expect too much of the police with a lot of | these tracking devices/services. I don't have any experience | with AirTags, but I know Apple's Find My can narrow down the | location of e.g. a lost phone to a street corner. But if you're | in a city there's a decent chance that there's more than one | person on that street corner. The police can't/shouldn't stop | everyone there and search them. Tracking a stolen item to a | house is even harder (need a warrant). And an apartment is | probably impossible because I doubt the tracking is good enough | to narrow it down to a particular unit. | shiftpgdn wrote: | This is every major city right now, unfortunately. | reustle wrote: | Every major American city* | errcorrectcode wrote: | Which? Where? | ornornor wrote: | Toronto ON | filoleg wrote: | I can only speak for the city I live in, but Seattle fits | the bill perfectly right now. | panzagl wrote: | Every city in the US. Between 'are we the baddies' and | relatively meh pay most municipalities are short of | officers. | | I'd link an article, but googling 'police shortage' would | seem to do the trick. | r00fus wrote: | Law Enforcement definitely do not have "meh" pay in "most | municipalities". | panzagl wrote: | And let me guess, all teachers do is hand out worksheets | for 6 hours a day and why do you always see 3 | constructions workers standing around a hole? But you- | you cleared 1.5 story points today tying two Javascript | libraries together, that's where the real value is. | jjeaff wrote: | Is "are we the baddies" really a reason? Because many | other industries are having a shortage of workers right | now. | pantalaimon wrote: | Berlin certainly too | radicaldreamer wrote: | San Francisco, for one. | mushbino wrote: | They've never responded for things like this, be it now, | pre-pandemic, or 20 years ago. It's never been an | understaffing issue. | flounder3 wrote: | San Francisco. Los Angeles. Seattle. San Jose (albeit theft | has never received attention in San Jose) | rootusrootus wrote: | Portland, of course, definitely belongs on the list. | | I live in a small town outside of Portland and it's not | bad, we haven't cut the funding for our police. | jjeaff wrote: | Well, San Francisco cut their police budget by $6m... | From $668 million. And they increased funding to other | parts of the justice apparatus. Like and increase to | juvenile programs and the district attorney's office. | You'll be hard pressed to find even the most liberal | cities in America have actually cut police funding in any | significant way. | ornornor wrote: | In North America. Not every major city in the whole developed | world. | entropie wrote: | At least in most major city in Germany its the same. | | MY GF filed a public assault (very minor) case like a year | ago and there is still no success yet all persons | identities are known. Police is horrible understaffed. | FredPret wrote: | Refund the police! | julienb_sea wrote: | AirTags are so irritating. If you ever travel with a group its | like daily notifications about someone's stalking you with their | airpods and there isn't a way to permanently ignore a device. | Gigachad wrote: | Have certainly seen it happen with airpods. It's meant to not | trigger if the owner is nearby but it seems this fails often | with airpods while the airtags are good at not alerting you. | endisneigh wrote: | There's not really any way to make something that can reliably | find your own stuff without also enabling stalking. Either you | support the use case and the downsides or not | babyshake wrote: | If I wanted to make sure I knew about an AirTag attached to my | vehicle, for example, is there something I can do or something I | can put in the vehicle to detect it? | jccooper wrote: | An iPhone will eventually notify you about a tag that is | following you. You can get a "Tracker Detect" Android app that | will do a similar thing. There's also plenty of apps that'll | just tell you all the NFC devices in your vicinity. | tssva wrote: | Apple's "Tracker Detect" app for Android will not | automatically notify you about a tag that is following you as | an iPhone will. Tracker Detect only supports manual scans for | tags. | paxys wrote: | Your iPhone will notify you eventually. Or you can get a | bluetooth signal tracking app and try and find it yourself. | rich_sasha wrote: | iPhones warn you if they think there is a "stalker" air tag, | and you can get an app for Android. | rlt wrote: | I assume Apple only cares enough about the anti-stalking feature | to avoid significant negative press. | | As others have pointed out, you can buy small GPS trackers | without anti-stalking features already, and those will only get | smaller / better battery life over time. | nomel wrote: | Or, perhaps Apple only cares about the anti-stalking feature up | to the point where it makes the product impossible to | implement, because both have the same use case (finding). There | are many AirTags in my family, and I'm constantly hearing | beeping and getting notifications that I'm being followed, | because my wife is sitting next to me, with her purse on her | lap, and her keys, and her wallet. And guess what, you can't | "trust" someone else's AirTag. I can't permanently turn off the | notifications, because stalkers would do that too. The amount | of anti-stalking that's present is _so annoying_ as is that I | 'm probably not going to be buying any more. | | In your opinion, what else _could_ Apple do here, assuming you | 're familiar with the product? | ed25519FUUU wrote: | Anyone who would use these to stalk someone is an idiot. They're | tied to your Apple ID. It's not at all anonymous. Apple warns | people about the abuse. | | There's a million GPS trackers for sale online that are near | anonymous. The AirTag is a horrible device used to stalk people. | paxys wrote: | It takes 10 seconds to create an Apple ID. How exactly can it | be tied back to you? | | Every GPS tracker on the market needs a monthly subscription | and your credit card info. | rich_sasha wrote: | It's perfect for stupid people, and there's enough of them... | loceng wrote: | Or to frame someone if you're wanting to paint them in a bad | light, create suspicion; "I didn't put my AirTag on their | car." | post_break wrote: | Have you seen anyone get busted by tying their Apple ID to a | stalker? You can easily make a new Apple ID and fill it with | fake data. | up6w6 wrote: | Or you can load your own firmware to any other embedded device | with Bluetooth and also make it totally undetectable from iPhones | by changing keys frequently and making it appear like multiple | different AirTags. | | https://github.com/seemoo-lab/openhaystack/ | lgats wrote: | Previously Discussed: | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26342504 | Gigachad wrote: | I think the cat was out of the bag in a way on this one. Apple | put in a good effort to stop abuse but the technology is in | people hands now. | TSiege wrote: | They in no way put in any effort to do this. They added the | bare minimum that they were told at the outset was not | enough. | https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/05/13/apple- | air... ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-02-03 23:00 UTC)