[HN Gopher] Gut microbe linked to depression in large health study ___________________________________________________________________ Gut microbe linked to depression in large health study Author : pella Score : 257 points Date : 2022-02-06 18:29 UTC (4 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.science.org) (TXT) w3m dump (www.science.org) | wdwvt1 wrote: | Gut microbiome researcher here - not involved in this study but | happy to answer questions or dig in with anyone interested! | [deleted] | goodpoint wrote: | People are sharing anecdata around improving their biome by | eating sauerkrauts and nobody asked you any question yet... | this is sad. | antiterra wrote: | Is there evidence of gut biome activity directly interacting | with the mesh of nerves in our digestive tract? | wdwvt1 wrote: | Absolutely - the chemicals that microbes make in the gut pass | into your blood stream and from there access the entire body. | There are mechanisms the body uses to ensure these chemicals | are detoxified (phase I and phase II metabolism in the liver) | and that they are excreted if they reach too high a | concentration. | | More locally, the enteroendocrine cells | (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enteroendocrine_cell) that | line the gut translate much of the internal nutrient state of | the gut up to the brain to tell you things about if you | should eat, etc. | | There is a lot of research on how we could alter satiety by | finding the right language that these cells use. There are | approved drugs on the market that mimic the activity of these | cells (incretin mimetics) to reduce appetite/weight control. | ninesnines wrote: | Hi! | | Thanks a ton - super curious research. What determines if | individuals get Morganella and Kiebdiella bacteria? Is it | genetic or can it be impacted by the food we eat? | | What is the mechanism of how these bacterias interact with the | brain through the enteric system? | | Thank you! | wdwvt1 wrote: | Fascinating question - also not totally known. | | We know that microbes colonize the gut in a somewhat | predictable way as a function of age. As a newborn your gut | is largely dominated by Bifidobacteria, and this slowly | transitions to a more complex community over the next several | years of life. Events like early childhood antibiotics, | malnutrition, other disease, etc. can alter this trajectory. | Interestingly this kind of ecological succession seems to be | driven by an interplay of both immune maturation (as your | immune system matures it starts being more selective about | who it tries to let in) and by chemical processes. The gut | becomes more anaerobic as the number of bacteria increase | (and transition away from the Bifido dominated state) and | that has a strong selective effect on the microbes that will | grow well. | | For specific commensal bacteria we know some of the | mechanisms of colonization - there are particular genetic | programs that bacteria turn on when they sense they are in | the gut to enhance their ability to be retained and not | washed out. These programs include physical attachment, | motility, and chemical signalling to try to dampen the local | immune response. | | Pathogens are extremely good at getting in to the gut despite | our best attempts at keeping them out. Salmonella typhimurium | is notoriously adept at colonizing the host - the infectious | dose you need is maybe 10 microbes taken orally in a | susceptible host (compare that to 10 billion microbes/capsule | in a probiotic). | | For these specific bugs I don't know that much. I am excited | to read more. | happylion0801 wrote: | At the current pace of research and studies, when do you think | we could expect to see something come to 'market' that could be | used - first as a diagnosis and then as a | treatment/medication/technique. | | As someone with IBS - right now I feel like there is no clear | 'problem' defined for it. You are just categorized by the | doctor (Rome 3 or whatever) and people go through various | tests, medications, non-fda approved stuff to see what works. | | I am eagerly looking forward to some progress in this area to | hopefully fully understand whats going on and get a proper | diagnosis | wdwvt1 wrote: | There are a variety of strategies being pursued to make | pharmaceutical products out of microbiome research. Broadly | those are: 1: "bugs as drugs" - genetically engineered | microbes that perform some function. The idea here is that | having the microbe in situ performing some function will be a | much better way to administer a particular compound (or set | of compounds), or remove a compound, than a traditional | pharmaceutical. Large pharma companies have studied | phenylketonuria as a metabolic disease for which the bugs as | drugs approach would be great. Find a microbe that consumes | phenlyalanine at a high rate and administer it at high levels | (or get it to stably engraft in the host) and you have a | treatment that would be vastly better than current dietary | regimes. 2: "community engineering" - this takes many forms | from fecal transplant, to trying to engraft a certain small | cocktail of strains, to altering what the in situ community | is doing by feeding a probiotic. The idea here is that there | are tens of thousands of metabolites that microbes are | producing in the gut, and by balancing or tailoring the set | of metabolites that are made, you can improve health. Fecal | transplants have good data for clearing recurrent C. diff in | phase III clinical trials - this is the best developed of the | microbial therapeutic strategies currently. Everything else | is phase I or before. 3: "microbial natural products" - this | is the world I work in (shameless self-promotion - if you | want to come work at a very early stage microbiome startup | email me at will@interface.bio). The idea here is to find the | particular chemicals/metabolites that microbes make that have | positive influences on our physiology. Most research here is | focused on immune conditions, metabolic syndrome/dietary | stuff, though there is increasing interest in depression and | other conditions. | | At a broad scale, I would say it will be 1-2 years before | fecal transplants receive approval as a therapy for recurrent | C. diff infection, at least 5 years before a bug-as-drug will | be available, and at least 7 years before a microbe-derived | natural product is on the market as a pharmaceutical. It | takes an incredible amount of work to get from these | associational studies to a pharma-grade product. | | In the interim, I think there will continue to be a bunch of | diagnostics and probiotics companies that (IMO) are bordering | on absolute nonsense. There is very little predictive value | to the tests supplied by most of these companies, and the | data on probiotic efficacy is bad in humans. There is good | evidence of probiotic and prebiotic effectiveness in animal | husbandry (e.g. fish and livestock) but the data just aren't | there in humans. | happylion0801 wrote: | Thank you, appreciate the breakdown. With so much focus on | the gut research recently I feel like we are on the cusp of | bringing together lots of things and new understandings and | that hopefully happens soon | james-skemp wrote: | Also have an IBS diagnosis. | | Had a great doctor that helped me get started, after many | that did a shoddy job, and this has been my experience as | well. | | Very much a 'seems like IBS, try low FODMAP, see what works | and doesn't via experience,' which was pretty | amazing/alarming how little is understood about our guts. | | I'd love to know when the science is going to start catching | up. Especially since I think it'll be interesting to find out | if something has been added to our diets that's causing an | increase in intolerance over the last decade+. | happylion0801 wrote: | > Very much a 'seems like IBS, try low FODMAP, see what | works and doesn't via experience,' which was pretty | amazing/alarming how little is understood about our guts. | | Yes exactly this. | | > Especially since I think it'll be interesting to find out | if something has been added to our diets that's causing an | increase in intolerance over the last decade+. | | One thing I read is that western diets severely lack in | fiber which usually leads to loss of microbiome diversity | [1]. But studies like this are still early stages, we need | targeted results based on all this to really have any | effect. | | [1] https://nautil.us/how-the-western-diet-has-derailed- | our-evol... | fodmap wrote: | I'm in the same boat as you. After some clueless doctors, | I'm in the 'try low FODMAP' phase currently, and for the | first time I'm improving. | | I mean, we know there isn't a cure for now but it's good to | have something similar to a 'normal life' again. | | I also have my fingers crossed waiting for science to do | its job. | | I share your suspicion about current Western diets. | steelstraw wrote: | Is there a good way to test one's own gut microbiome? To | determine how healthy it is or isn't, and to track how it | changes over time. Basically I want to be able to tell how my | diet and things like antibiotics affect it. | wdwvt1 wrote: | I think it's really hard - we don't know what a healthy state | of the microbiome is. There is likely a lot of individuality, | what is healthy for me is maybe not healthy for you. This | probably has to do with early life immune system development | and what we were exposed to as kids. | | At a high level we know that diversity of microbial species | in the gut (but for instance, not in the vagina) is linked to | better overall health state. Is this because of the microbes? | Probably not, it's probably that the microbes are a | sensor/responding to an overall healthy diet/ecosystem. | | In general, there are commercial services to track your | microbiome and they are interesting from a data perspective, | but I am not sure you will get much health information out of | them. | | We know the answer to a healthy diet - there are no microbial | talismans - but it's just not sexy. Eat lots of plants, less | sugar, and exercise. I wish it was as easy to follow this | advice as it is to write haha. | Jare wrote: | Wonder what evolutionary mechanisms made us (in general) | enjoy food that's bad for us a lot more than the one that's | good. | sprkwd wrote: | What are your thoughts on Biomel, Symprove, etc in helping the | gut biome? | EL_Loco wrote: | Regarding your advice on eating plants, do you know if it | matters wheter they are cooked or eaten raw? I mean, is one | preferable over the other, from a gut biome perspective. By the | way, thanks a lot for your answers! | sddat wrote: | What supplements do you take based on your scientific | background? | abootstrapper wrote: | What is the "gut?" Colon, small intestines, stomach, all of the | above? If gut microbiome affects mood, what happens if someone | has a total colectomy? | pknight wrote: | Weird question perhaps, some research suggests that bacteria | source nutrients from the cell lining in the gut if there is an | absence of sufficient nutrients from the food coming into the | digestive system. (example: | https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(16)31464-7) | | That made me wonder what the triggers might be, since the | studies see the corroding effect appear in diets deficient in | polyphenols/insoluble fibres. At what interval do microbes need | nutrients and is simply eating a highly-processed snack that | has nothing much to offer bacteria in the gut a possible | trigger in itself? | wdwvt1 wrote: | Fascinating question - and not one whose answer is known. | | Fiber is good for microbes merely by the virtue that humans | lack the glycan-degrading enzymes that are necessary to break | it down, so it reaches the colon intact where the microbes | can eat it. Humans can digest starch (though it can be | physically and chemically modified to be harder to digest) | but not the hundreds of other types of fibers that are found | in a traditional diet. | | I think there is good research that shows that higher fiber | diets are associated with lower risk of developing a range of | metabolic and immune pathologies, but the particular | mechanistic linkages are so subtle that it will require | absolutely massive studies to identify them. In general, we | know that humans used to eat a much higher fiber diet (e.g. | the Hadza people eat 70-150 grams of fiber a day), and we | believe that produces a much healthier microbial composition. | | The paper you cited is really interesting! I haven't read it | - but the overall idea that the mucus lining of the gut can | be degraded by microbes who are sourcing carbon, energy, and | nitrogen from it is well established. | | I think there is consensus that some amount of gut barrier | integrity is due to microbial signals. This occurs in two | ways - 1) our epithelial cells sense microbial products | (proteins, carbohydrates, etc.) and respond by tightening the | junctions between them. The overall idea being that you want | to keep the bacteria in the colon, but you must balance some | level of nutrient flow. 2) The goblet cells which produce | mucus in the gut, respond to microbial signals to increase or | decrease their mucus production. | | There is a lot of research going on trying to understand how | certain diets cause defective mucus production and in turn | how that can allow microbes to get to close to the epithelial | lining (usually the mucus is ~100 microns thick) which | results in inflammation. | | Recent evidence of another function of microbial activity in | the gut of hibernating animals. In short, it appears that | they help the host supply enough nitrogen for maintaining | muscle mass during hibernation: | https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abh2950 | pknight wrote: | Very interesting, thank you for answering! | Herodotus38 wrote: | In your opinion, what is the best study that shows direct | evidence that changes in gut flora can change health outcomes | (preferably something that is a randomized control study). The | only area I feel comfortable that good data exists is in the | setting of fecal transplants for refractory clostridioides | difficile infection. Thanks. | wdwvt1 wrote: | I think you hit it on the head - the C. diff stuff is good | and will meet FDA criteria soon (the phase III data from | ECOSPOR was good: | https://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT03183128). | | In general we only have mouse or other animal data for other | indications. | | There are retrospective analyses of patient cohorts receiving | anti-PD1 or anti-CTLA4 therapies which have identified | certain microbiome states as supportive of those therapies. I | believe that these are probably real effects, though I don't | think the particular microbes matter - instead I think it's | the metabolites they produce and how those influence resting | immune state | (https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abf3363 - but | you can find many more). | | A paper I really like shows that a specific protein from a | common gut microbe (Akkermansia muciniphila) confers | resistance to diet induced weight gain, insulin | insensitivity, etc. | (https://www.nature.com/articles/nm.4236). | | In general, I think the majority of microbiome work has been | associational and demonstrative of the kind of hypothesis- | free science that is prone to all sorts of statistical | artifacts and misaligend incentives between truth-finding and | paper publishing (garden of forking paths, file-drawer | effect, etc. etc.) | antiterra wrote: | If you're like me and somehow missed out that there's an | significant mesh of neurons in your guts that's capable of | independent neurotransmitter release, you should look up the | enteric nervous system. | | Intuitively, at least, it seems to make sense of all the 'gut' | connections to mood. | musingsole wrote: | It's been described as a "cat's brain" equivalent of neurons. | Largely seems attached to regulating various rhythms of the | gut, but who knows what computations it could be influencing. | stjohnswarts wrote: | Considering how often my cat manages to outsmart me I'd say | that is a significant amount of neurons. | vletal wrote: | Is this really the causality. Could it be the other way around? | Depressed people might in time develop bowl disorders? | hirako2000 wrote: | or depression causes this bacteria to proliferate more easily? I | see nothing in that research showing causation. It doesn't | invalidate their correlation though. | msrenee wrote: | Do they claim causation anywhere? All I see is them saying | there appears to be a link. | charisma123 wrote: | "One of them, Morganella, was significantly increased in a | microbial survey of the 181 people in the study who _later_ | developed depression." | | they would have been diagnosed with depression first leading to | increase in morganella, if it was the other way around? agree | this could be correlation, but I guess thats why they say that | the field is still in its infancy. | mateo1 wrote: | That's my thinking as well. Depression leads to lifestyle | changes which includes dietary changes which can cause certain | bacteria to grow faster, as your gut bacterial makeup changes | constantly based on what kind of food you consume and which | microorganisms are specialized for it. | | I think there will be some breakthroughs by studying the human | microbiome, for example there could be reasons that a | moderately harmful microorganism or strain becomes dominant in | your gut for whatever reason and causes problems, but from my | personal anecdotal experience with gut health and diet, I | believe most issues will still be solved with dietary changes | and perhaps some targeted antibiotics or antimicrobial | treatments in general. | | I'm also willing to bet we'll discover a lot of immune | involvement in the regulation of various bacterial population | in the gut. There must be an adaptive system that minimizes or | eliminates most harmful organisms in the gut, otherwise we'd | all be dead. | fnord77 wrote: | as the article states, this was suspected or known for at least | 15 years. | | Has anything actionable (treatment-wise) come of it? | testemailfordg2 wrote: | Strange coincidence, just last night drank milk kefir and woke up | feeling much more lighter in my head...Guess I know the reason | now... | grp000 wrote: | I've found kefir to be useful myself, but only after a few | weeks of daily consumption. | exdsq wrote: | I assume Tom Brady retired to make an income from the spice | malange on the back of this news | animal_spirits wrote: | Since diet can affect the microbiome of the gut and I can't | imagine how gut bacteria affect moods (although I'm open to the | idea I suppose) I'd wager it is actually diet and nutritional | input that affects mood as well as the gut bacteria. Makes more | sense to me that your mood can be affected by your diet, and what | we are measuring is the altered microbiome of the gut because of | the diet. | eightysixfour wrote: | As mentioned in the article, there is already a causal | hypotheses for why the biome itself is the cause, certain | people have strong immune responses to the products of these | bacteria which causes a chronic inflammatory response. | tejtm wrote: | ..." I can't imagine how gut bacteria affect moods"... | | But you can imagine looking at a picture and feeling hungry. | | In addition to our fast new electrical nervous system for rapid | response there is the older slower endocrine system from when | we were just bags of chemicals coordinating with concentration | gradients (still are, but were). | | visual -> brain -> signals gut -> gut makes molecules to get | ready -> molecules detected report to brain -> you drool | | Moods depend on the chemical balance of small molecules | bacteria eat sleep and poop small small molecules. | | To consider that after billions of years of coexisting we, both | multi cell & single cell, have not adapted to responding each | others's small molecules is unthinkable | roywiggins wrote: | You wouldn't expect a fecal transplant to help if the bacteria | were entirely incidental though. | PragmaticPulp wrote: | Two patients and no control group is virtually useless for | drawing any conclusions: | | > Indeed, researchers recently reported in Frontiers in | Psychiatry that fecal transplants improved symptoms in two | depressed patients. | | Depression research is challenging because even placebo | groups tend to have dramatic improvements. | robocat wrote: | > Two patients and no control group is virtually useless | for drawing any conclusions | | That is a frequentist argument. | | If the response to treatment is significant enough, then | that is a worthwhile signal (cliche: parachutes save lives | without a control group). | | Placebo is an obvious contender. However presuming the | patients had a chronic condition with plenty of previous | interventions, then the placebo effect has had plenty of | chances in the past. If it were due to placebo then there | would be something to learn about why the placebo effect | were so effective in that situation! | sushid wrote: | So... you can imagine how gut bacteria affect mood after all? | winrid wrote: | I wonder which gut bacteria make me crave cheap Mac and | Cheese... | galangalalgol wrote: | It seems like you are joking, but many of the fecal | transplant patients report their food preferences changing, | sometimes dramatically. | winrid wrote: | Half joking. I do wonder about how the bacteria | influences cravings, and if sometimes a craving means I'm | missing some kind of vitamin/mineral. | taeric wrote: | To be fair, I think the parent is that they expect that both | are affected in similar ways. That is, gut biome is an | effect, not an affect with regard to mood. | | The sibling point that treatments targeting the biome would | be expected to fail, if that were the case, is complication. | manmal wrote: | If you believe that nutritional input has an effect on mood, | then, by proxy, you also believe that the microbiome has an | effect. We have outsourced a lot of food preprocessing to gut | microbes, and if they are wiped out, then you'll suffer from | malnutrition. | antiterra wrote: | There has been scientific recognition of the gut affecting | brain function for well over 100 years. This might help it make | more sense: | https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5772764/ | mrfusion wrote: | But could the causation be in the opposite direction? | fulafel wrote: | This is a bacterium that is killed by antibiotics, right? | Interesting that the effect wasn't noticed before. | yoyar wrote: | I think the causal nature of this relationship is way | overestimated. | antiterra wrote: | I'm curious, why do you think that? | potatoman22 wrote: | Playing devil's advocate, do we have any reason to believe | that people who are genetically more succeptible to | depression aren't also more likely to have this sort of gut | via genetics? That would result in this correlation. | | Perhaps improving your gut biome wouldn't actually help with | depression? | antiterra wrote: | If people with depression have this sort of gut, that still | doesn't establish directional cause or mechanism. | | The semi-autonomous nervous system in our guts, the | microbes in our guts, and our central nervous system have | complex chemical signaling interactions. Neurotransmitters | linked to effects on mood are generated by the gut. | Therefore, the brain can signal to the gut that it should | release neurotransmitters, and the gut can release those | neurotransmitters itself. | | Because of this interaction, it's possible the 'culprit' | for depression is behavior by the brain, microbes on the | gut, the gut itself, or the brain-gut interaction (Or any | combination of the four.) | | A good summary of our understanding of these mechanisms is | at https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5772764/ | yoyar wrote: | Agreed. No one knows. | EasyTiger_ wrote: | I thought this had been known for a while? | eightysixfour wrote: | From the article: | | > Morganella has already been implicated in depression. As far | back as 2008, researchers investigating a possible link between | depression and inflammation found depressed people had stronger | immune responses to chemicals produced by Morganella and other | gram-negative bacteria in the gut. Thus, the newest study seems | to be "further proof" that inflammation caused by gut microbes | can influence mood, Gilbert says. | annoyingnoob wrote: | Then there is this: https://www.npr.org/sections/health- | shots/2022/02/06/1074719... | | Zap your head or a fecal transplant? Choices, choices. | bell-cot wrote: | > ... When it came to depression, two bacteria [...], | _Morganella_ and _Kiebdiella_ , seemed to play a causal role, | [...] _Morganella_ has already been implicated in depression. As | far back as 2008 ... | | This situation looks _relatively_ simple to me - start searching | for bactiophages which are specific to _Morganella_. Briefly test | those in animals, then try them on a few volunteers who both are | suffering from profound depression and seem to have very high | _Morganella_ levels in their guts. (While giving 'em fecal | transplants from depression-free relatives and monitoring them | intensively and such.) | | If that shows promise, then you might really have something | (minus a _whole_ lot more testing & refinement & such). If | not...maybe back to the drawing board. | phantom_oracle wrote: | Perhaps Westerners view all non-western science as pseudoscience | or made up, but it is a well-known fact in many Eastern cultures | (and their medicinal practices) that the stomach is a primary | source of disease (and not just depression, but all kinds) when | abused through bad eating habits. | | Then the wheel is re-invented with intermittent fasting, a diet | with less processed foods, more veg/fruit, less meat, etc. | | Whenever I see articles about health on HN, I no longer take them | too seriously because the reductionist approach to medicine is | why people get mistreated for symptoms instead of the disease. | | Even the ancient Greeks (the so-called birthplace of "western | knowledge") took a more holistic approach than what the sketchy | for-profit medical/pharmaceutical cabal does. | | But of course, we need to take it seriously because "the | scientists say so", even though their own research system is so | badly broken that a for-profit cabal runs the publishing arm of | research. | | Strange times we live in. | CapitalistCartr wrote: | "Western Science"'s insistence on procedure, double-blind | studies with control groups, finding provable reasons why, etc. | have debunked most of pre-modern medicine. That some elements | have withstood the test of close examination is not a criticism | of our methods, more a validation. As are stunning improvements | in life. | belltaco wrote: | What if depression was causing the gut microbe changes? Like it | was recently found with autism and gut changes. | | https://cosmosmagazine.com/health/body-and-mind/autism-gut-m... | thih9 wrote: | Note that the original article mentions: | | > "researchers recently reported in Frontiers in Psychiatry | that fecal transplants improved symptoms in two depressed | patients" | smt88 wrote: | That doesn't disprove that depression caused the microbial | imbalance in the first place. | | It's very reasonable to think that a lot of these systems are | bidirectional, and for any individual, you may not know which | part of the body was dysfunctional first. | kibwen wrote: | From the beginning of the article: | | _" Whether those microbial deficits actually help cause the | disorders is unclear, [...]"_ | | For the time being it appears to be careful in only suggesting | correlation, not causation. | zabzonk wrote: | > Thus, the newest study seems to be "further proof" that | inflammation caused by gut microbes can influence mood | | Of course it bloody can - if you have IBS or any number of other | gut-related problems, believe me you are very likely to be | depressed, because the symptoms of these are very nasty and | humiliating. This does not mean that the bacteria are directly | affecting the CNS. | | Also: | | > Kiebdiella | | It's Klebsiella | wutbrodo wrote: | It seems pretty obvious from reading the article in its | entirety that the claim is that the inflammation is affecting | mood directly, not via nasty and humiliating gastro symptoms. | zabzonk wrote: | How would you differentate between the two? | asdfman123 wrote: | zabzonk wrote: | No. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klebsiella | zackmorris wrote: | Just another data point, but my journey through digestive issues | and recovery was kicked off by the worst depression and burnout I | ever experienced, which started in 2019 and lasted 3 years. | | My best guess for what happened is that work stress, excessive | celebration and coping with the cognitive dissonance of the pre- | COVID era and subsequent pandemic, combined with overtraining and | the misuse of protein shakes in place of food, left me in a | chronically dehydrated state. The body tries to collect moisture | from the gut, which opens an opportunity for bacteria to get into | the body cavity and blood, which is colloquially called leaky | gut. This sets off food sensitivities and eventually an | autoimmune condition/response to lectins, gluten, etc, which have | proteins similar to linings in the body, joints and thyroid. Then | a cascade happens where everything goes out of whack quickly. In | my case, I went from being in the best shape of my life, the | strongest I had ever been in the gym, to barely able to get out | of bed in the morning. In other people, it might present as | chronic fatigue, arthritis, etc. | | I didn't really believe any of this in 2018, and my meal plan | then consisted entirely of everything that I can't eat today. So | I consider what people say politely, but for the most part, they | have absolutely no idea what they're talking about. This | experience has made stuff like GMO foods sound absolutely insane | to me. Like, why would we ever taint our food supply to make food | 5 cents cheaper or "feed the world" when we've been operating | under artificial scarcity since the end of the second world war? | It's all a crock. | | Every time you eat inflammatory food, the risk is similar to | smoking a cigarette. Probably nothing will happen, but if it sets | off your immune system, you may wake up one morning chronically | depressed and/or unable to eat something that you rely upon. It | got me after I turned 40, YMMV. | mahathu wrote: | Thanks for sharing, but can you (or anyone else) elaborate what | he means by "the cognitive dissonance of the pre-COVID era"? | Permit wrote: | > I didn't really believe any of this in 2018, and my meal plan | then consisted entirely of everything that I can't eat today. | | I suspect you had the same degree of confidence in your | understanding of these issue then as you do now. It's | interesting that you can reflect on your overconfidence in the | past, but don't seem to express any skepticism regarding your | current beliefs surrounding nutrition. | | By the way, I'm not saying that you're wrong! GMOs may be bad, | but I think you would do well to level some degree of | skepticism over your current understanding of nutrition as you | do toward your past understanding. Consider that perhaps you | will be here in 2026 telling us about how you got it wrong | today. | omreaderhn wrote: | There's an asymmetry in the risks associated with choosing | either a) to restrict or b) not to restrict the set of foods | you eat. | | Overconfidence in (b) carries more risk than overconfidence | in (a). The set of chemicals that are toxic is much larger | (as in >>>) than the set of chemicals that are necessary for | sustaining life. | treeman79 wrote: | Autoimmune protocol diet exits for this. | | Spent a month eating sweet potatoes. Best I ever felt. | baxtr wrote: | So, what are you actually eating now that has helped? | rkalla wrote: | This was a _fascinating_ read and I thank you for writing that | all up - I'm in your "3 year" dip and in the past made attempts | at tackling the gut biome issue with cycling probiotics, fresh | vegetable fibers, organic/local yogurts, staying away from fake | sugars and other dietary things that blow out the biome and | even after a few weeks of doing this I never felt any better - | would shrug my shoulders and go back to not really caring. | | Was there 1 inflammatory food item that is like kryptonite to | you now? Fake sugars? Wheats? | technosamay20 wrote: | Insightful journey. Can you please share your discoveries and | what do you eat now! | jwuphysics wrote: | I'm sorry to hear about your experiences and it sounds like you | learned a lot from firsthand knowledge. But, respectfully | asking, what does inflammatory foods or poor eating habits have | to do with GMO foods? | sdze wrote: | Also why would GMO be bad? The criticism comes mostly from | people that also believe in osteopathic / homeopathic | medicine in my social circle. | | I find it a terrific chance for humanity to engineer plants | in such a way that they are more robust against disease and | bad weather (with CRISPR/CAS and such methods). | Dma54rhs wrote: | Anti - GMO crowd is definetly very similar to anti vaxxers | and other science deniers spreading dangerous propaganda | while eating oranges and bananas. | hutzlibu wrote: | Are you implying oranges and bananas were made with | modern GMO methods? | | I agree that the anti gmo/vaxx etc. crowd is quite | irrational in many regards, but I can see a difference | between traditional breeding plants - and directly | editing DNA. | sdze wrote: | Don't forget the 5G radiation... | rogers18445 wrote: | Currently there doesn't appear to be any evidence that GMO | is bad for your health and most GMO is just transplanting | genes from other edible organisms. | | Hopefully regulators aren't going to allow insertion of | engineered genes producing novel molecules without going | through actual medical grade trials for those molecules. Or | it may torpedo the entire industry. | netizen-936824 wrote: | In every case of GMO food I have encountered, the | compounds are not novel. Rather, they're an adaptation or | resistance found in one species and transferred to | another. | rjsw wrote: | As someone else with immune system reactions to food, it | doesn't seem a great idea to modify food even more than we | have done already. | freshpots wrote: | That's not a good argument at all. What 'modification' do | you think is a risk and how would it cause the concerns | your worried about? | ipaddr wrote: | To put the question back what benefit does it provide | aside from cost? | csnover wrote: | As just one example, if you live in an area where it is | difficult to get dietary Vitamin A, you might enjoy the | benefits of not going blind due to Vitamin A deficiency | by eating Golden Rice[0]. | | Have you ever eaten a SweeTango apple? It is one of | dozens of varieties that have been created in the last | hundred years using genetic engineering via cross | breeding[1]. Do you know why commercial tomatoes are so | bland? Genetic engineering via selective breeding[2]. | | The fact of the matter is that all of the crops and | livestock that we cultivate today are genetically | engineered. The main distinction now is that we are | technologically advanced enough to introduce beneficial | modifications deliberately, rather than relying on random | mutations and gene recombinations that occur in nature at | random over hundreds or thousands of generations. | | [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_rice | | [1] https://mnhardy.umn.edu/varieties/fruit/apples/all- | apple-var... | | [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomato#Modern_commercia | l_varie... | ericbarrett wrote: | Here is my criticism of GMO foods; or at least, the reason | I'm wary of them. I don't believe in any "woo" at all. | | Why would the massive corporations that have driven the | food in our supermarkets ever cheaper, ever thinner in | nutrients, ever higher in fat and sweeteners and fillers, | ever more laden with pesticides and antibiotics, ever more | processed--why would they use a technology like GMO crops | for good? Why wouldn't they just splice pesticide and sugar | genes into them directly and juice the yield even harder so | that the soil is stripped and ruined even faster? I think | they will be used to boost profits, not make our food more | nutritious, or even cheaper in any way except per calorie. | | I understand there are potentially benefits, e.g. growing | crops resistant to pests so that spray pesticides can be | reduced. I just have no faith whatsoever that these kinds | of considered actions will be taken, based on the last 100 | years of technology. It's just going to be wheat and corn, | wheat and corn, wheat and corn until caloric yields | approach insolation and the soil is as gray and lifeless as | the moon. | tomjakubowski wrote: | The risks from unknown unknowns are even worse with | genetic engineering in crops, due to the inevitability of | hypothetical "harmful to humans genes" propagating from | one population to others by pollination. | | _The Precautionary Principle (with Application to the | Genetic Modification of Organisms)_ | https://www.fooledbyrandomness.com/pp2.pdf | jay_kyburz wrote: | I'm not into osteopathy or homeopathy but my concerned | about GMO are because I don't trust that the scientist | really know what they are doing, or can fully understand | the impact any changes they might make, not only on humans, | but on the environment at large. Nor do I trust our | government to be able to police and regulate the industry. | Nor do I trust big farma to put health before profits. | sdze wrote: | I think humans always genetically "engineered" plants by | selection process. Our current cultivated plants are the | result of thousands of years of breeding. | | Who knows what accidental genetic damage from breeding | will cause problems in humans? | broptimist wrote: | Harmful crop breeds would have been selected against over | the course of many generations, right? Now we're doing it | on a larger scale, so the risks and rewards are greater. | What is our knowledge of the risks and rewards? Are the | rewards aligned with general human wellbeing, or just a | profit motive? I don't know. | manmal wrote: | Not OP. In many cases, the genetic modifications are either | performed to either let the plant produce (more) lectins that | kill insects, or make the plant immune to certain herbicides | like glyphosate. The human gut and microbiome might be able | to deal with lectins they have evolved to deal with, and in | "normal" quantities. But those additional GMO lectins are | suspected to be hard on the intestinal barrier. If that | barrier is compromised, autoimmunity might be the result, as | OP indicated. | zackmorris wrote: | Two main things: | | 1. Genetically modified (GMO) foods can cause non-food | compounds to get synthesized in the food that our bodies have | never seen before, which can trigger autoimmune issues. I | consider this the lower risk. | | 2. GMO foods are designed specifically to allow more use of | pesticides and herbicides. These get incorporated into the | food and can stay around after washing, especially in | processed food. Pesticides are low-level neurotoxin and | disrupt gut nerves, while herbicides disrupt gut flora. | Loosely, what happens is that the body is sensitive to most | plant husks, since they are designed to keep bugs out that | feed on them. GMO copies that defense mechanism, often | amplifying it hugely, resulting in amplified food | sensitivities. I consider this the higher risk, so high in | fact that the consequences of it can be life-altering. | | Edit: These effects combined turn ordinary food into | inflammatory food | PeterisP wrote: | My impression is quite the opposite - GMO insect-resistant | plants enable using much _less_ pesticides (the savings | from reduced frequency and quantity of pesticides being the | economic reason for choosing such crops) than non-modified | equivalents. | wfme wrote: | This article [0] points towards the reality being | somewhere in the middle - more herbicides but less | insecticides. | | > GMOs have been changing the way that pesticides are | used in agriculture. Herbicide-tolerant genetically | modified (GM) crops have led to an increase in herbicide | usage while insecticide-producing GM crops have led to a | decrease in insecticides. | | [0] https://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2015/gmos-and- | pesticides/ | more_corn wrote: | GMO roundup resistance allows us to use a bunch of | herbicide without killing the food crop. This seems to | indicate that we'd be using a lot more roundup on those | crops than otherwise. | avdlinde wrote: | Sorry if I didn't understand correctly, but how did you make | the alcohol (celebration), work stress, pandemic stress > GMO | link? | zackmorris wrote: | I only made it very recently. I had tried absolutely | everything and gotten almost nowhere. I finally stumbled onto | everlywell.com tests, took the comprehensive test of 200+ | foods, and discovered almonds and dairy were the main | culprits. I would ave been very unlikely to eliminate almonds | as part of an elimination diet. | | Anyway, once I was able to feel better again, even for a day | or two, I then was able to try other changes along the | decision tree in the problem space. It soon became obvious | what caused what. Everlywell says that 18 months of avoidance | can often allow us to eat foods we're sensitive to again. | I've blabbered about it at length in my previous comments, | probably too much haha. | Goety wrote: | an army runs on their stomach and not anything else | maybeOneDay wrote: | Tangential: Is there any evidence that pro biotic foods or | supplements can increase gut health? Given the evident importance | of gut health, I wonder whether it's worth using something like | this, to grab a random example: | https://www.amazon.co.uk/Restored-Bio-Cultures/dp/B082SZXBF2... | everybodyknows wrote: | Anecdata: Tried various probiotics, no help. _Pre-biotics_ | however, have been huge. Search for "resistant starch". | pknight wrote: | What was your diet like when you were taking them? It's been | observed in some studies that delivered mixed results that | responders had better diets (i.e. more bacteria friendly | components in the diet such as indigestible carbs from | vegetables/legumes/fruit etc) whereas non-responders had | weaker diets in terms of providing the gut microbes | nutrients. | asdfman123 wrote: | The best treatment for my own ADHD, depression and anxiety is | living a healthy lifestyle, across the board, full stop. | | It means regular exercise, 6 hours of cardio a week, eating | healthy, meditating, spending time in the sun, etc. etc. (And | anti-depressants/therapy, which play an important role too.) | | Of course, it's too much to tell someone struggling to do all | those things, but if you can work towards that, I strongly | recommend it. I've had to declare war on my depression and | ADHD because I can't afford to have it in my life anymore. | | At some point perhaps the science will catch up and explain | precisely how these things help, but until then, I feel like | you have to take the ancient approach of observing people who | have things figured out and emulating them. (And I say this | as someone who is very much pro-science.) | happylion0801 wrote: | As a fellow comment says - its all over the place and kind of | hard to say, see [1] saying they are useless but lots of | studies saying they are useful . | | Personally as someone with IBS, I have tried many probiotics | over the years and have mixed results - most of them were | useless but for some time I found one or 2 that worked but I | couldnt say for sure if they worked due to other factors (for | e.g generally healthier food, lifestyle, mindset etc). You | would have to try it out for weeks to see their effect | (according to studies that say it work). | | The doctors I spoke to though gave me strong probiotics (>100 | billion CFU, for e.g something like [2]). I found anything that | had 1 or 10 billion CFU to be pretty much useless. | | I think you should work on your diet before taking probiotics. | I dont think I am lactose intolerant, milk gives me bad | bloating but yogurt doesnt. Yogurt worked for me over the | course of weeks, kefir and sauerkrat gave me mega-bloating. | | [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/health-45434753 [2] | https://www.amazon.com/Visbiome-Potency-Probiotic-Shipped-Sh... | aussieguy1234 wrote: | Not sure if you have heard of the low FODMAP diet? Its now | the standard treatment for IBS. The theory is certain | bacteria ferment FODMAPS into gas and water which leads to | the symptoms. They don't know which bacteria yet but going | low fodmap is now a well researched and accepted treatment. | | Everyone is different but personally, I'm able to tolerate | everything except Fructans (one of several types of FODMAPS). | So no garlic, onion or wheat for me. | | https://www.monashfodmap.com/ibs-central/i-have- | ibs/starting... | dan353hehe wrote: | I was skeptical of this when I first heard of it several | years ago. It sounded just like every other popular diet | does: "Just (don't) eat this certain food, and you will | feel amazing!" | | But I have several family members on it right now, and they | all report feeling WAY better. And this is after years of | dealing with IBS type problems too. | CodeGlitch wrote: | Another successful patient of the low FODMAP diet here. | As soon as I stray from the restrictions I will suffer | the next day. IBS can be crippling. | | Honestly the scientist(s) who developed the low FODMAP | diet needs to be awarded a Nobel prize. | aussieguy1234 wrote: | It's the same for me. If I eat the wrong food, I'll feel | fine for the rest of that day. | | Then the next day, almost always in the morning is when | the problems will start. Perhaps the bacteria had time to | ferment the food overnight. | | So when I have symptoms, I always look at what I ate the | previous day. | Shank wrote: | Low FODMAP works, but it's precisely because it's unlike | all other "diets". It's a systematic removal of basically | all short-chain sugars. The problem with it, as someone | who was instructed to follow it, is that it's extremely | unintuitive to know what foods are low or high FODMAP | without the list. Because of this, it's really easy to | make mistakes unless you consult the list prior to | eating. | | So it definitely gives positive results, but it's also | very difficult to follow. | aussieguy1234 wrote: | Yep, there are hundreds of foods out there that have | them. | | Personally I use this app when eating anything I'm not | sure about, it has a database of foods and their fodmap | content: https://www.monashfodmap.com/ibs-central/i-have- | ibs/get-the-... | nvarsj wrote: | As someone on FODMAP, what works for me is to do | breakfast/lunch meal replacement with low FODMAP shakes | (like Huel), then get a few FODMAP cookbooks and make | dinners out of that. Works great and is fairly painless - | lots of delicious meals can be made that are low fodmap, | fortunately. It's really difficult to avoid FODMAPs when | eating out, western food loves onions and garlic for | instance - for these cases, I use alpha-glucosidase | enzyme tablets (I take 2x 350mg tablets with a meal). | happylion0801 wrote: | Yes of course. I did low-fodmap for many months few years | ago and continue to do it (when I go to an unknown place | for example or travel). | | In studies Low-fodmap is typically only recommended for ~6 | weeks. I now try to eat any kind food though, I eat | everything in smaller quantities and this also helps. | | I personally found that a combination of diet, stress, | sleep control are the most effective for managing IBS | symptoms. Any one of those can flare up the symptoms at any | time and managing all of them is key | car wrote: | Rather than using these processed foods, one should provide the | gut microbiome with "food" in the form of fiber from whole | plant foods, i.e. not 'fiber' supplements like Metamucil. | | Lots of accessible information can be found at | https://nutritionfacts.org. | tharkun__ wrote: | Another anecdata point: | | I used be lethargic, couldn't get myself to do anything but be | on the sofa. I would get horrible migraine headaches if | drinking alcohol or even alcohol free beer or eat certain | foods. I self-diagnosed histamine intolerance through trial and | error. | | I tried multiple pro-biotic combinations. An easy one I tried | in the beginning was simply some Danone Actimel the family had | in the fridge anyway. I can attest to the fact that it contains | live bacteria (a strain that makes lots of histamines) that do | make it to the gut because it gave me the horrible migraine | headache as would Sauerkraut actually. Researched what strains | don't create lots of histamine. I landed on Garden of Life - | Primal Defense Ultra. What I think made the difference is that | it contains Bacillus subtilis. I say that because I tried two | or three others that had largely the same makeup of strains but | none had that particular bacterium. It's a soil based bacterium | which you might get from eating your own cabbage you grew in | the garden as well. Almost everything else just has various | different strains of lactobacilli. | | Taking 3 capsules a day I felt like crap for 2 weeks (no | headaches, just feeling sick, like a bad cold) and then things | got better. I am able to drink alcohol again (I'll get a | hangover headache like anyone would if I drink too much but | it's not longer a day long migraine from just sipping 10ml) and | eat anything I want to in any quantity. I still take one in the | morning and one in the evening and I put one into the | Sauerkraut I make. | | YMMV as always, not a doctor, try at your own risk, not | affiliated etc :) | itronitron wrote: | Thanks for sharing this, most of your experience sounds | similar to those of a friend of mine (Yokult gives them | migraines) although they haven't yet tried Bacillus | subtillis. | manmal wrote: | Really interesting indeed! I just found this paper on B. | subtilis from November: | https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34630666/ | | Reducing intestinal permeability is a highly desirable | effect. | csdvrx wrote: | It's the same bacteria found in Natto | newsclues wrote: | https://pendulumlife.com/pages/science | | From the maker but I heard about it on a podcast and was | convinced. | dade_ wrote: | Sauerkraut is simple to make and cabbage is cheap. | | https://www.livestrong.com/article/413921-does-sauerkraut-ha... | MikeDelta wrote: | Or Kimchi if you're into Korean food. | umeshunni wrote: | Do you have an easy to make recipe? | OJFord wrote: | Not GP and don't have one to suggest, but as you're | asking for 'easy' (and at risk of stating the obvious, | but only once you know I suppose) - ignore anything that | says something like 'refigerate for 30mins and enjoy'. | | Or don't, I'm not denying quick such er salads can taste | great, just that if what you want is a fermented or | pickled product, that takes time. (And much longer if at | all in the fridge - that's their purpose!) | | A 'proper' recipe for sauerkraut for example will tell | you something on the order of weeks at minimum, and it's | done when you like the taste. Kimchi I think is typically | fermented for longer, more like months or over a year | (not including any transferred to the next batch). | scott_paul wrote: | I use a variant of Emmymade's variant of Maangchi's | recipe. It works really well. | | Rinsed pickle jars work great, a head of Napa cabbage | usually fills about 2+1/2 ~ 3 jars. If you're not into | high spicy, dial back the red pepper by about half, for | your first try. If you don't like funky, skip the fish | sauce or any seafood component, I always do this so that | the flavor won't clash with some dishes, you can always | add fish sauce to a dish but you can't remove it. | | I ferment it for about 3 days at about 65 ~ 68 | degrees(f), then into the fridge. It keeps indefinitely | but is best within a few months. | | Do not bring it into work, just as you would not | microwave fish at work. The aroma is very much not to | everyone's preference, even when made without seafood. | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaoA7SKN0g0 | https://www.maangchi.com/recipe/easy-kimchi | asiachick wrote: | it would never have occured to me not to bring kimchi to | work. Durian? Stinky Tofu? ok but Kimchee? I'll bet most | company cafeterias have blue cheese around | dekken_ wrote: | https://www.thekitchn.com/how-to-make-easy-kimchi-at- | home-18... | | good base to build from, it didn't use to be so spammy | tho | arrosenberg wrote: | Most lactofermented foods are: Main ingredient, spices, a | few tbsp of salt. Add to sterile jar, fill with water | (add a glass weight to the top if needed to keep | everything submerged) and leave in a dark cabinet for a | few weeks. Trial and error to get the flavor the way you | want it, but that's basically it. If you see little air | bubbles forming near the bottom after 2-4 days, you have | a live culture. | ng12 wrote: | I brew my own kefir, sauerkraut, kimchi, and occasionally | kombucha. Of those kefir is the most demonstrably effective, | all of them are cheap. | | The only effective probiotics I've found are very expensive, | costing around $120/mo. | ijidak wrote: | > The only effective probiotics I've found are very | expensive, | | But how do you know if they're effective? | | That's always been my question. | | What is the effect one should notice? | ng12 wrote: | I have some odd GI issues so there's a clear impact | there. The alternative treatment is some very nasty | medication. Effective probiotics restore normality | without the side effects the medications have. I'll spare | you the details ;) | | More anecdotally I do feel generally better even when my | GI symptoms aren't present: more energy, better mood, | more restful sleep. | happylion0801 wrote: | Personally kefir, sauerkraut, kimchi, kombucha - all give me | lots of bloating even after trying out for weeks. Maybe thats | just how its supposed to be? Not sure but I stopped after a | while after it affected my daily life | pknight wrote: | I've come across plenty of evidence in the literature but there | are lot of variables that can prevent any positive effects from | taking place. If you're taking probiotic supplements in | isolation and the rest of your diet is suboptimal in terms of | bacteria-friendly nutrients, it's unlikely that you'll get | results. It could be the case that many people are throwing | money away if they're taking probiotic supplements without | addressing their diet and lifestyle. | | There's so much variety between people, one formulation for one | person might work well for one person but have negative effects | on another even if they have a supportive diet and lifestyle. | People might simply have to trial multiple formulas that have | the right mix of strains before they find one that works for | them. | | Prebiotic foods seem to have more consistent results on gut | health, according to some studies. | | (not medical/health advice disclaimer) | PragmaticPulp wrote: | Probiotic and gut biome research is all over the place. | | It's possible to find some studies showing correlations, but | it's harder to find successful replications of those studies. | | Some probiotics have been shown to temporarily alter gut flora, | but it usually reverts after the probiotic is stopped. Dietary | and activity changes are generally good at improving the biome. | | It doesn't help that one of the commercial guy biome measuring | companies basically turned out to be fraudulent a few years | ago. Even some of the public efforts to measure correlations | are suspect or bunk because they relied on these services. | throw_me_up wrote: | Eat fiber. Meet the recommended amount and eat a diverse set of | fiber which will feed different microbes in the gut. It will | take some time for the gut to adjust to the new levels though. | Expect gas, cramping, etc for a few days. | EL_Loco wrote: | Do you advise just fiber from natural foods, or do you take a | fiber supplement (like those that come in powder form)? I | guess the supplement route won't give me the diverse fiber | types you mention, am I right? | CodeGlitch wrote: | I've always been prescribed them by doctors after taking | antibiotics... As you guessed it the guy microbes are killed | off by the medication. | | Well that's the theory anyway... | kazishariar wrote: | It's better for you if you tried something more well-reviewed: | | https://microbz.co.uk/product/bio-live-gold/ | | Thank me later- and you're welcome. | Gatsky wrote: | There was a lot of work on microbiome and cancer immunotherapy... | the latest study in the field published in the most prestigious | journal there is [1] seemed to show that fibre intake was more | important than any specific microbe. In fact they found that | eating more fibre and taking probiotics resulted in worse | outcomes than just eating more fibre alone. This was | recapitulated in a mouse model: | | > Together, these data have important implications. We show that | dietary fiber and probiotic use, factors known to affect the gut | microbiome, are associated with differential outcomes to ICB. | Although causality cannot be addressed from the observational | human cohort, where unmeasured confounders may exist, our | preclinical models support the hypothesis that dietary fiber and | probiotics modulate the microbiome and that antitumor immunity is | impaired in mice receiving a low-fiber diet and in those | receiving probiotics--with suppression of intratumoral IFN-g T | cell responses in both cases. | | It would be a bit disappointing if the final conclusion from all | this microbiome work was 'Eat more vegetables'... | | [1] https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aaz7015 | enchiridion wrote: | Interesting result about the fiber plus probiotic. To me that's | saying that's your body mostly knows how to maintain a micro | biome if given the right building blocks. | | I wonder how the immune system comes into play to actively | shape the microbiome, vs our typical understanding of just | "fighting bad bacteria". | baxtr wrote: | Why only more vegetables? Isn't fiber also in some other food? | brainaxis wrote: | Great to see the gut brain axis becoming more well known in | medicine. Less than 10 years ago it was considered near | pseudoscience to consider that the gut could actually influence | the brain. | | https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-preventi... | | https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4367209/#:~:tex.... | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gut%E2%80%93brain_axis | The_rationalist wrote: | vmception wrote: | I went down that rabbit hole to have a more informed opinion | and I found that accepted science would converge on some of the | same goals naturopaths and other alternative medicine | practitioners eventually. | | Basically, they both want personalized medicine. As in, | remedies that are custom tailored to the internal state of the | individual, instead of "personalized" by listening to an | individual describe a current ongoing affliction. | | Alternative medicine lacks any method for peer review or | repeatability and practitioners themselves procedurally | generate the remedies, which makes it incapable of being | accepted science except by mere coincidence of some practices | eventually being peer reviewed if reviewable at all. This is by | a design that is comical to the scientific community, where | "everybody is different". | | At the same time, the scientific method and peer review itself | is too rigid to evaluate all ailments, without associated | advances in technology. This is also by design as it was | necessary to distinguish the sciences from arbitrarily | religious or arbitrarily heretical practices at one point in | some areas. | | Now we are on the cusp of convergence of the ideals, by being | able to analyze and sequence the symbiotic relationships within | our bodies. How little control we have in many cases, or at | least potentially redefining the sense of self. | taeric wrote: | For those curious, morganella is the main culprit listed here, it | seems. Wikipedia isn't clear to me on how one gets this in your | biome. Outside of other susp conditions. :( | cmckn wrote: | My personal, completely unsubstantiated take is: your diet | allows certain bacteria to thrive (or not). It's less about | trying to avoid the bad ones and more about trying to nurture | the good ones. One incredible thing you can do for your gut is | eat more fiber; which the vast majority of Americans don't. Try | psyllium husk powder (the stuff in Metamucil). Eat less refined | sugar and saturated fat; eat more raw and fermented vegetables. | Probiotics are kind of a scam, and are usually _really_ | expensive. Like most things with health, you have to | consistently do the not-so-fun things to get good results, you | can't just take a pill and move on. | asdfman123 wrote: | The rule of thumb in nutrition is diet is way more effective | than supplements. | | There's a place for supplements, some of them may be helpful | or not, but having a good diet that naturally includes those | things is always better. | taeric wrote: | That is as may be, however, this study shows that removing | that bacteria helps with mood disorder. And, there is no | evidence that diet gives you this bacteria. Nor that it can | help remove this one, either. | | That is, discussion of diet is a bit of a non sequitur. Not | wrong, but also not necessarily relevant. | cmckn wrote: | The paper is titled " Combined effects of host genetics | *and diet* on human gut microbiota and incident disease..." | (emphasis mine). Dairy (and the way some people process it, | because of genetics) was shown to influence levels of | certain bacteria. | | The study also does _not_ show that removing Morganella | resolved depression; the study did not attempt to remove | it, and a researcher is quoted as saying it's not clear how | one would do so (last line of the article): | | > But it's less clear how Morganella could be eliminated | from the gut to relieve symptoms. "That's a bit more | challenging." | taeric wrote: | Ah, fair. I was going with what I saw as an implication | that removing it would help. My apologies. | | Clearly, I had not made it through the article to the | underlying studies. My reading was that they were looking | for lactose related bacteria, but landed on this other | one. And that they did not find a way to control it's | presence. | bladegash wrote: | Will be interested to at some point see what kind of connection | gastrointestinal autoimmune (among others) diseases such as | Crohn's and Ulcerative Colitis have on not only the guy microbe | balance, but mental health as well. Many mental health disorders | have strong genetic ties, as well as autoimmune diseases. Wonder | if existence of one makes the likelihood of existence of the | other greater. | whatshisface wrote: | There's some progress now in tying specific mental disorders to | autoimmune problems in the brain. Wish I could tell you more | but all I know about this is that they test people's cerebral | spinal fluid for antibodies against specific neurotransmitter | receptors, and they've discovered several connections between | those and problems people have. | bladegash wrote: | Very interesting! I actually have both Crohn's and bipolar | disorder, and one anecdote that's interesting (to me) is that | the TNF inhibitor I'm on, which has put Crohn's in remission, | has simultaneously appeared to have a positive effect on the | mood disorder side of things as well. | | Really cool to see the GI getting so much research! | | Edit: Found an interesting study that addresses the | relationship between TNF and mood disorders - go figure! | | https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19477018/ | thenerdhead wrote: | I've seen these studies time and time again. I do wonder what are | the practical steps one takes to "repair" or "renew" their gut? | I'm not a fan of drugs being the cure. In fact, I don't think | they are the first solution people should hope for or supplement | with unless it's not practical to get them in a natural way. | | I feel like we see more and more gut related issues due to | depression & depression's little cousin anxiety. IBS for example | manifests itself from anxiety and can also be a gut microbiome | imbalance. | | If there are more and more studies around gut health being a | sort-of panacea of mental & physical health, why aren't we | focusing on making healthier decisions for our diet, exercise, | and mental well being? | | It's no surprise that many people(myself included) in our always | connected world suffer with crippling anxiety from over | stimulation/shock & awe news/comparison to others/overwork/etc. | That anxiety manifests in your gut as digestive issues. Those | digestive issues make you less likely to exercise for long | periods of time or even at all. | | In my opinion, it's four main things. Increase sleep, | improve/wide ranging diet, moderate exercise, and reduced stress. | There are definitely hacks like fiber, yogurt, sauerkraut, and | more that people swear by, but I am genuinely curious if a study | had tracked some of these variables to see if they improve gut | microbiomes. | cesnja wrote: | > what are the practical steps one takes to "repair" or "renew" | their gut? | | Look up nutritionfacts.org and read/view it with a generous | pinch of salt. A few years ago it took me half a year to switch | to a mostly WFPB diet advertised there and I had no issues | whatsoever. My gut is now more resilient, I remember having | problems with bloating and/or diarrhea if I ate just a bit more | fiber some days. | | > why aren't we focusing on making healthier decisions for our | diet, exercise, and mental well being? | | The answers are there, but cognitive dissonance prevents us | from recognizing or accepting them. | thenerdhead wrote: | This dude sounds like Jeff Goldblum. Thanks for the | recommendation! | noneeeed wrote: | It seems to be a case of lots of variety in your diet, ideally | lots of different vegetables, nuts, pulses etc, and cutting | down/out highly processed foods. Variety seems to be the spice | of life, quite literally. | | I've just finished reading Prof. Tim Spector's "The Diet Myth". | The book's title is a little hyperbolic, but it works through | all the major food groups and how we eat and talks about both | the historic research and diet fads of the past (like Ansel | Keys research that sparked the obsession with low fat foods) | and how all these different foodstuffs tie into our gut | bacteria, which in turn affects us. | | Tim's "thing" is the human biome, but I didn't read it as him | touting it as a cureall, but as something that is more | important than almost all of us are aware, and which has been | seriously neglected to the point that it's having an impact on | many aspects of our health. He's also pretty open that a lot of | this is still very much up in the air at the moment, and lots | more study is needed to really understand many of the effects. | He also seems pretty sceptical of the medicallisation and the | obsession with isolating one factor and packaging it up as a | supplement or magic pill that will solve your health issues. | thenerdhead wrote: | I've read similar books. Will pick this one up though. Thanks | for the recommendation! ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-02-06 23:00 UTC)