[HN Gopher] MAME Turns 25 ___________________________________________________________________ MAME Turns 25 Author : tosh Score : 210 points Date : 2022-02-07 13:23 UTC (9 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.mameworld.info) (TXT) w3m dump (www.mameworld.info) | koz1000 wrote: | MAME saved my bacon. True story: | | I was working on code for a pinball machine for Stern back in | 2005. I had a memory corruption issue and Stern's crusty old 6809 | hardware didn't have anything resembling a real-time debugger | that I could use. There was no time or budget to get a 6809 ICE | procured and running. | | So I loaded up my code in PinMAME and let it run. I was able to | watch memory in real time and caught the bug in an afternoon. It | would have taken me a week or so doing it by hand. | | So thank you, MAME. | jonny_eh wrote: | Isn't pinMAME a complete different project from MAME? Either | way, thanks for sharing your story. I'm a pinball fan and love | hearing stories like this! | koz1000 wrote: | I recall PinMAME being a fork of MAME, the UI was identical | and they borrowed a lot of cores like the 6809 and various | common sound boards that video used, like the Williams Yamaha | 2151 and Midway DCS AD2105 DSP. | | For a while they tried to keep the manufacturers happy by not | allowing modified ROMs to run, I got a special build from the | developers to let me run anything I wanted. I think those | restrictions do not exist anymore. | [deleted] | tanseydavid wrote: | Were you acquainted with Lyman Sheets (RIP), or possibly a co- | worker at some point? | | I was very sad to learn about his recent passing. | koz1000 wrote: | I knew Lyman from USENET in the early 90s and then I worked | with him at Williams. We started around the same time and got | laid off together in '99 when WMS shut us down. Lyman was at | my wedding. | | It's extremely sad. It's a huge loss. | classichasclass wrote: | Well, out with it: which pin? (There's a Stern Sopranos in this | house, though I think that was developed before this story | would have happened.) | koz1000 wrote: | Stern NASCAR | | https://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=5093 | | Sopranos was around the same time, but there were actually | two versions of the code. One was in the old 6809 and the | other was a test version of their new ARM-based hardware. | ur-whale wrote: | Mr Do! | asciimov wrote: | My family purchased our first PC the summer of '97. It took me 6 | weeks to go from Packard Bell Navigator to discovering MAME and | other emulators. | | I miss those early internet days, when finding new things online | seemed magical. | dfxm12 wrote: | MAME is a great piece of FOSS. When I was learning JAVA in high | school, we had to make a program with a GUI component, and I made | a front end for MAME implementing the options I used a lot. It | was like a pared down MAMEUI. | | Anyway, here's to 25 more! (and hopefully, there will be new | arcade machines to emulate in 25 years). | unfocussed_mike wrote: | The amazing thing about MAME is that it almost doesn't matter | if there aren't new machines to emulate, because it so | perfectly preserves the past. It really is almost perfected. | | (OpenEmu and Retro Virtual Machine are also worth the time; the | latter particularly if you have fond memories of the very | underrated Amstrad CPC) | mattl wrote: | CPC will have its day eventually. | sfblah wrote: | Can any MAME enthusiasts on here recommend the ideal computer | configuration to use in a MAME cabinet? I have an old joystick | setup I built many years ago, but the cabinet that went with it | is long gone. I had some interest in setting it up again with the | screen as a TV set attached to the wall and with the joystick box | either attached to the wall or up on legs like a table. Seems | like a fun project, but I'm not sure what's computer and OS to | use for the job. I'd like to spend a "normal" amount of money on | it - maybe under $1000? | kwertyoowiyop wrote: | MAME will always have a special place in my heart. Thank you to | all who contributed. And to the original creators of all the | games it supports. | system16 wrote: | I was late getting into computers, and back in '98 just got my | first Windows PC. I struggled, but eventually figured out how to | get MAME installed and loaded up a long forgotten arcade game I | used to play as a kid at my local corner store. | | It's hard to describe the sense of wonder I felt when when the | ROM check sequence flashed to the title / insert credits screen | and I knew it worked. It might sound silly, but few moments in my | life have been so eye opening. It was definitely a key factor in | me starting my path to becoming a developer. | MegaDeKay wrote: | It was great seeing the ROM check and initial graphics, but for | me it were those first bits out of sound out of PacMan that | really sealed the deal and made the game come alive. | | So impressive what the team has done over these years to | preserve retro arcade games, consoles, and computers (now that | MESS is part of MAME). | stutsmansoft wrote: | And still not version 1.0 | jonny_eh wrote: | Can someone explain why this is being downvoted? Or at least | explain why MAME has never reached 1.0? | 0xcde4c3db wrote: | I don't know how serious they were being, but a couple of the | developers have suggested over the years that "MAME 1.0" | represents MAME perfectly emulating all platforms. | chriscjcj wrote: | If any of the MAME devs are reading this, I would like to say | thank you for all the amazing work you've done. I started playing | with MAME in 1998. Watching how it's progressed has been jaw- | dropping. In my opinion, it belongs in the arena a "human | achievements." It's not just a technical achievement. Hundreds of | people from all over the world cooperate with each other to move | the ball forward with every release. I've never been a developer | and know nothing about what goes on "on the inside," but I have | to believe there has been conflict, politics, and infighting | among the various participants over the last quarter century. But | the perseverance, tenacity, and dedication shown by everyone who | has given selflessly to create MAME is inspiring. These people | sure aren't doing it for the money. There's a lot of love | there... love for the games, the history, and the nostalgia. And | we all benefit from it. I'm so grateful to all of you for what | you've done and continue to do. | | A couple of anecdotes.... | | There's been some episode where the development team has made | some unpopular choices. Sometimes moving the ball forward on full | emulation is at odds with end-users' game-playing enjoyment. | | Asteroids was my game as a kid. I dreamed and obsessed about it | when I was eight, nine, and ten years old. Asteroids was quite | playable on MAME even in its early stages, but only the video was | emulated. Asteroids' sound is generated by analog circuitry and | emulating it took many years to tackle. In the interim, MAME used | samples to play its audio. Enter Derrick Renaud! He fully | emulated Asteroids' audio. At first, it wasn't perfect and a lot | of people (who have no idea what goes into making MAME possible) | were angry that their game didn't sound right anymore. It slowly | got better, but there was one thing that kept bothering me. The | interval between the "thumps" was a major third instead of a | minor second as it was supposed to be. Rather than creating | tension, the thumps sounded strangely cheerful. I managed to find | the forum where the MAME developers hung out and left a very | polite and detailed message about the thumps. I included | recordings from an Asteroids cabinet to show how the pitch of the | thumps wasn't accurate. Derrick never responded to my message, | but it was fixed on the next MAME release. So, THANK YOU Derrick. | Asteroids sounds amazing. Now, if only someone made a monitor | that even came close to simulating the incredibly bright CRT used | in the cabinet, I would be on cloud nine. Maybe some future | iteration of HDR will get us there. :-) | | https://www.retroblast.com/articles/Renaud_interview_AR-IN-0... | | A more recent episode was similar... The Votrax SC-01 voice | synthesizer chip used in several classic games had never been | emulated. Consequently, games like Q _bert, Gorf, and Wizard of | Wor used samples as well. Someone managed to put a Votrax under a | powerful microscope and document its exact functionality. (I just | went looking for the photo of it, but couldn 't find it.) Again, | starting at some MAME revision, any game that used the Votrax | chip no longer triggered samples, but used Votrax emulation | instead. At first, it really sounded bad. Gorf sounded like it | had sucked off of a helium balloon. It was a long time before | things improved. I posted a question on reddit's mame subreddit | and received an interesting reply from a MAME developer: | | https://www.reddit.com/r/MAME/comments/e2cdr4/mame_0216/f8xa... | | A few months later, a new MAME release made some huge | improvements to Votrax emulation. And, while not perfect, it | sounds really really great. It's particularly important on | Q_bert, because so many of the strange sounds that the characters | make are generated when random phonemes get sent to the Votrax. | When Q*bert dies, his expletives are different each time. When | you're using samples, it's not really possible to achieve that. | | Anyway... enough of my musings. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU to | the whole MAME team. You've put a million smiles on my face and | the faces of my friends, co-workers, and my kid. And for that I'm | so very grateful. | JKCalhoun wrote: | I guess I have built over half a dozen MAME cabs. Having kids was | a great excuse to build them. All of my daughters kick ass at | "Joust" and were born decades after its heyday. | | For me, I finally got to enjoy games like "Robotron" that I | sucked so bad at I couldn't, at the time, justify spending a | quarter on about a minute of game-play. | | MAME allowed me to discover games (I guess mainly Japanese ones?, | "Guwange" is an example) I had never experienced in the arcade. I | had also missed "Metal Slug" series, happy to discover these | games in MAME. | | With MAME I rediscovered games I had only briefly seen in the | arcades before they were gone: "Tail Gunner", "Omega Race". | | I also tried games with MAME I would have passed over in the | arcade like "Golden Tee Golf". Really enjoy that one (you need a | track ball though!). | | MAME did sort of ruin "pay-to-continue" games like "1941". But I | sort of hate those games now anyway for having a "pay-to- | continue" model. | lochlan wrote: | Pay-to-continue is a concession to the reality that an arcade | is designed to generate money. The balanced and high-intensity | gameplay gets you interested, the continue feature just takes | your money. The solution is to never continue! Try for a 1 | credit clear. | digisign wrote: | Yes a confirmed blog post or similar link would be nice. | wiz21c wrote: | how hard is it to build a cabinet ? Do you use real CRT ? (I | know there are lots of info on the web, but well, a first hand | experience is always nice!) | germandiago wrote: | One of my most favorite projects ever. | kingcharles wrote: | There is the old apocryphal story of how eBay was started with | Pez dispensers. But in 1997 when MAME launched, 99% of eBay was | CDs of ROMs, and Beanie Babies. eBay gave no fucks back then | (people were buying and selling kidneys) and most people were on | dial-up, so buying CDs with 1000 ROMs on it was heaven. | boilerupnc wrote: | Cheers to MAME! A wonderful FOSS, indeed. Fond memories of | running it on a hacked XBOX console many moons ago. My Gen Z son | was exposed to the beauty of Dig Dug, Burger Time and Joust | before he turned 5 :-) with eyes of wonder. This is the way. | [deleted] | dang wrote: | Past MAMEage: | | _Build you own SGI Indy workstation with MAME_ - | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28127607 - Aug 2021 (21 | comments) | | _A guide to running IRIX 6.5.22 in MAME_ - | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25716625 - Jan 2021 (8 | comments) | | _Real VT102 Emulation with MAME_ - | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23662907 - June 2020 (30 | comments) | | _MAME devs are cracking open arcade chips to get around DRM_ - | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14854013 - July 2017 (4 | comments) | | _MAME is now Free and Open Source Software_ - | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11226131 - March 2016 (91 | comments) | | _MAME and the New Emulation Reality_ - | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9608945 - May 2015 (46 | comments) | | _MAME is going completely open-source to be a 'learning tool for | developers'_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9553940 - May | 2015 (65 comments) | | _MAME 0.151 ROMs_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6974938 | - Dec 2013 (46 comments) | | _Full MAME emulator for non-jailbroken iOS_ - | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5198002 - Feb 2013 (28 | comments) | | _The Day MAME Saved My Ass_ - | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1996885 - Dec 2010 (44 | comments) | nickthegreek wrote: | Back around 2003, my buddy and I were walking home from our | college classes and we saw a 1981 track and field arcade cabinet | next to a dumpster. We hauled that thing home in the rain, gutted | it and made a MAME cabinet that took quarters for credits and | soldered a keyboard up to the controls. We learned alot about | keyboard ghosting and were pretty good at soldering by the end of | the whole thing. We got so much enjoyment out of that box for | years. | timmg wrote: | Dumb question: is there a way to legally _buy_ ROMs (meaning | licenses) that can be played in MAME? | dleslie wrote: | Everyone is saying No, but that's not strictly true. | | GoG has a slew of arcade games for sale, that are essentially | emulator+rom combinations. Double Dragon, Metal Slug, Neo Turf | Masters, etc are all available for purchase with a good ROM. | | There are also licensed miniconsoles and cabinets (Arcade 1Up | and others) that are likewise just hardware+emulator+rom | combinations, and you can legally extract the roms for your own | purposes. | | And there's more. I have a sizeable legally-acquired ROM | collection, now. Even console games - Genesis games on Steam, | PSX games on PSN, etc. | jonny_eh wrote: | What's not clear though is if you're allowed to extract the | ROM to be used in another emulator. While copying the ROM for | "backup purposes" is likely legal, any other kind of copying | is grey, at least as grey as downloading a ROM for a game you | own on physical media. | themikesanto wrote: | Unless there is some language in the purchase | agreement/terms of service that specifically prohibits | extracting the ROM, you are in the clear. I highly doubt | such language exists. | | But who cares? You purchased the software, you can do | whatever you want with it, and going this route is already | going above and beyond what most normal people do, which is | pirating the ROMs. | dleslie wrote: | The GoG and Steam sources I mentioned don't have any | copyright circumvention prevention, at least as far as I | could find, and so DMCA provisions against circumventing | those digital locks shouldn't apply. | flatiron wrote: | A lot of commercial software uses mame under the covers (capcom | classics for example). IANAL but if you bought that and were | able to extract the roms from it that should be fully legal. | Just don't distribute it. | dfxm12 wrote: | The short answer is probably not. | | However, some games are freeware [0], I guess you don't | technically buy those, but they certainly are legal. Some | homebrew devs might be selling ROMs this way, too, but you'd | have to reach out to the devs. If you want to license | individual games, you'll have to figure out who owns them & | ask. They likely won't part with it, as these deals aren't | really B2C. Plus, you might be competing with Arcade 1 up, | whatever they think they can get from selling on services like | PSN, etc. | | 0 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adventures_of_Robby_Roto! | 1024core wrote: | Archive ( https://www.archive.org ) has a massive set of ROMs. | I just downloaded a 14GB file of them over the weekend. | jonny_eh wrote: | That's neither "legal" nor "buying". | [deleted] | chriscjcj wrote: | For all intents and purposes, the answer to your question is | no. | | You can find a handful of ROMs that are actually free on MAME's | website: | | https://www.mamedev.org/roms/ | | There aren't many and none of the really famous titles is free. | | I would imagine that posting links in HN to such content would | be verboten. Perhaps it would be acceptable to offer a hint. | There used to be a site called Pleasuredome that shut down | recently. They were the place to go to obtain any and all ROM / | CHD files. I would suspect that if one were to search using the | word "Pleasuredome" along with other obvious related key words, | one could quite easily find what one was looking for. | anthk wrote: | World Rally from Gaelco was released as freeware by its | creators. | | https://archive.org/details/arcade_wrally | | Proof: https://web.archive.org/web/20090218020517/http://gael | co.com... | zxcvbn4038 wrote: | You can get SD cards/USB sticks loaded with ROMs from Ali | Express if you want to pay money, there are torrents around | that are completely free, if your a techie the there is | probably someone in your workplace you can get copies from, | etc. Nobody really cares as long as you are not making a | profit. China doesn't care period. Nobody is going to start a | two ocean war over fifty year old video games. | tremon wrote: | So, the answer to the GP's question is basically: no? | timmg wrote: | Yeah, I mean, I know it's easy to get the ROMs. Just wondered | if any of the original manufacturers made them available for | _sale_. | zxcvbn4038 wrote: | It would be nice, but I bet most of them would be hard | pressed to dig up items from that far back even if they | wanted to. | koz1000 wrote: | Jamie Fenton has released the ROMs for Robby Roto as | freeware. So that's one. | koz1000 wrote: | Actually, there's a whole list here: | | https://www.mamedev.org/roms/ | sumtechguy wrote: | Capcom over the years has had a ROM set you could buy on | and off. Not sure if they still do. Think it was side by | side with an arcade controller. I think there is one of | their current console releases where there are a bunch of | games and it uses MAME as the core to run their games. They | are the only one I can think of that has sold ROMs to be | used in MAME both loose and bundled. There was a service | about 20 years ago claiming they had the ability to sell | them but it seemed kind of shady. Also it is not very clear | cut on many of them anymore who actually owns the game. | Most of it has very clear lineage but not all of it. | [deleted] | robotnikman wrote: | I remember reading about MAME many years ago, and I was amazed at | how many arcade systems in could emulate. When you consider many | arcade systems are one off (or close to one off) designs meant | for running a specific game, you get a feeling of how much work | people have put into preserving and emulating them. | tasty_freeze wrote: | I don't care too much about the arcade emulation, but there have | been a few times where I wanted to run a microcomputer emulation | (the MESS aspect of this project). However, I was unable to | figure how to set it up or even what machines are supported. | There are myriad red herring MAME sites that are out of date to | the point of being misinformation. | unixhero wrote: | MAME is an amazing open source libre project. | sylware wrote: | I stop looking at it once somebody broke its C implementation | with horrible c++. | apetresc wrote: | But why? The compatibility and performance of MAME has never | been better. What do you see as the effective downside? | sumtechguy wrote: | I can take a stab at that. | | The perf is fine for a lot of things. The code on the other | hand is kind of 'odd' to follow. It was a C project. #define | everywhere to basically create an object like system. They | now are moving to C++ in some places they use it to good | effect and stripping out that #define system. Other spots are | still the same C code from 15 years ago. So now you have a | project that is both. So it makes it sort of strange in a few | places. They have over the years made decent progress to | strip out some of the foot guns that C lets you do. Then on | top of that 6 different project leads with differing opinions | on how to run the project over the years. They have also | smashed together two different 'ROM' systems. One is a static | system where everything is burned into the code and the other | is a dynamic system using XML. So context burden is higher | when trying to change anything. Add to that unless you know | their system building a new emu is kind of interesting. | | But it is still sort of funny seeing people rocking a .34 | version. 'because of performance'. When anything within the | last year is probably just as performant and wildly more | capable and accurate. If the chart I saw last week is any | indicator 241 should have at least a 2-5% speed bump because | they removed a C'ism and flipped it over to use a C++ style | parameter in some core calls. Most of this goes back to | around 110 or so when they flipped over to use C++. Well they | _also_ added in a decent regression in speed at that time | too. So those two things became conflated in peoples mind | that C++ bad. When there was a design issue. | | Good place to follow the code and see what is going on. | https://github.com/mamedev/mame I would estimate they bash | out about a dozen pull requests a day. | zxcvbn4038 wrote: | The .3x versions were the last ones before they put in | abstraction layers for video and sound, which had a lot of | benefits, but adversely impacted performance on low-end | hardware of the time. On modern hardware I don't think it | is really an issue, particularly for games from the 80s and | prior. Raspberry Pi 4 works just fine. | bluGill wrote: | In summary the project is 25 years old and it shows in the | code. All old projects have that in some way as 25 years of | work and mistakes catches up | 300bps wrote: | 25 years of a loose confederation of unpaid developers | working on a code base with frequent updates and | improvements. If this is the worst that can be said about | it, they're doing pretty darn good. | sumtechguy wrote: | It is the tour-de-force in emulation. If I were starting | my own emu I would lean heavily on what is in there. | [deleted] | [deleted] ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-02-07 23:00 UTC)