[HN Gopher] On iPhone sideloading: it's ok, I'm changing my mind
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       On iPhone sideloading: it's ok, I'm changing my mind
        
       Author : keleftheriou
       Score  : 96 points
       Date   : 2022-02-09 18:48 UTC (4 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (numericcitizen.me)
 (TXT) w3m dump (numericcitizen.me)
        
       | etchalon wrote:
       | "Sideloading is fine. Just look at the Mac!"
       | 
       | "Sideloading is dangerous. Just look at Windows."
        
       | kemayo wrote:
       | Honestly, speaking as someone who's pretty heavily invested in
       | the Apple ecosystem, I'd like iOS to (be made to?) allow
       | sideloading in order to keep Apple honest.
       | 
       | Assuming it works out the same as on Android, I very much doubt
       | that sideloading would ever be mainstream or popular, but the
       | _existence_ of the option would serve as a constraint on how user
       | /developer-hostile Apple can be.
       | 
       | (And I entirely agree with the article that Apple eliding over
       | the entire internet-sales era of software is highly
       | disingenuous...)
        
         | Melkman wrote:
         | Being able to sideload is a double edged sword. Yes, it would
         | be a barrier for Apple to go to far overboard on monetizing the
         | ecosystem. It would also give companies like Microsoft a means
         | of ONLY distributing their applications via their own app store
         | forcing you to side load this app store with less oversight.
         | Maybe they add a forced installer to push their apps ? It's not
         | that I trust Apple that much. It's that I trust other companies
         | like Google, Facebook, Microsoft and Amazon less.
        
           | smoldesu wrote:
           | I fail to see how that's an issue when other developers can
           | make third-party clients if there's a significant demand for
           | it. If Twitter/Facebook start forcing people to install their
           | third-party store to access their app, then there's a massive
           | opportunity to make a better app that's distributed through
           | the App Store.
        
             | ThatPlayer wrote:
             | And you can always use Apple's favorite excuse of them not
             | being a monopoly: Safari browser.
        
             | codetrotter wrote:
             | > If Twitter/Facebook start forcing people to install their
             | third-party store to access their app, then there's a
             | massive opportunity to make a better app that's distributed
             | through the App Store.
             | 
             | Wouldn't Twitter, Facebook etc in turn demand that those
             | third-party apps be taken down from the App Store?
             | 
             | And even if they didn't, how is any third party going to
             | keep up with Twitter/Facebook/etc API changes.
             | 
             | And what about push notifications? Those would not work
             | with a third-party app installed via the App Store unless
             | Twitter/Facebook/etc explicitly made it so that they
             | supported that on their end.
             | 
             | For example, here's a blog post from 2016 about how the
             | Riot app for iOS is able to get push notifications when you
             | self-host a Matrix server.
             | https://thomask.sdf.org/blog/2016/12/11/riots-magical-
             | push-n...
        
               | smoldesu wrote:
               | > Wouldn't Twitter, Facebook etc in turn demand that
               | those third-party apps be taken down from the App Store?
               | 
               | No? Why would they? Third-party clients are alive and
               | well on the App Store today, and have been for years.
               | 
               | > And even if they didn't, how is any third party going
               | to keep up with Twitter/Facebook/etc API changes.
               | 
               | They've done a fine job of it so far.
               | 
               | > And what about push notifications? Those would not work
               | with a third-party app installed via the App Store unless
               | Twitter/Facebook/etc explicitly made it so that they
               | supported that on their end.
               | 
               | It does? Check out Tweetbot or Apollo for Reddit. Both
               | have push notifications that work fine.
        
             | ccouzens wrote:
             | Apps can't redirect Twitter/Facebook links without
             | Twitter/Facebook's co-operation.
             | 
             | This is a key feature stopping 3rd party apps being
             | competitive.
             | 
             | https://developer.apple.com/documentation/xcode/allowing-
             | app...
        
               | smoldesu wrote:
               | Sounds like a pretty easy fix for Apple then.
        
           | yreg wrote:
           | The likes of Facebook would certainly like not having to
           | submit to Apple's rules.
        
           | mannerheim wrote:
           | This doesn't happen on Android, so why would it happen on
           | iOS?
        
             | babypuncher wrote:
             | Google's privacy requirements on the Play Store are a lot
             | less developer-hostile than Apple's. I'm sure it has
             | something to do with the fact that Android and the Play
             | Store are owned by one of the data-harvesting tech giants
             | that Apple's rules just so happen to impact.
        
               | core-utility wrote:
               | I tend to agree with you. Side loading on iOS would be
               | much more lucrative for, say, Facebook who reportedly
               | just lost $200B due to Apple's privacy restrictions.
               | They're likely more happy with Android's play store than
               | Apple's.
        
             | [deleted]
        
             | cbdumas wrote:
             | If both iOS and Android allowed sideloading this would be a
             | much more attractive option. As it stands something like
             | that isn't really worth while because most high-value
             | consumers of mobile apps use iOS.
        
             | jdminhbg wrote:
             | As long as the iOS model exists, the sideload store model
             | is only viable on Android, and vendors are forced to
             | support the first-party store model anyway. If both
             | ecosystems allow sideloading, you could easily imagine
             | Microsoft or Epic switching to sideload-only and branding
             | their own stores across Android and iOS. As it is now, if
             | you can get something first-party on iOS but are forced to
             | sideload on Android, it just makes the Android experience
             | for Fortnite (or whatever) seem janky.
        
               | rpdillon wrote:
               | This is a good point, though the lack of auto-updates
               | from non-Play stores on non-rooted phones does add enough
               | friction to updating that e.g. Signal won't even
               | distribute via f-droid because of update latency. At
               | least that's my reading of Moxie's reasoning. It seems
               | likely this would dissuade some companies from making
               | their own app stores, though obviously not all.
        
             | etchalon wrote:
             | iOS and Android are fundamentally different markets.
        
               | pseudalopex wrote:
               | Explain the relevant fundamental difference please.
        
               | macintux wrote:
               | One difference: Apple is far more developer-hostile (or
               | end-user friendly depending on your perspective) than
               | Google, so someone like Facebook would be heavily
               | incentivized to open their own iOS App Store and tell
               | their users they must install that app from their store,
               | in order to bypass constraints Apple enforces via _their_
               | store.
        
               | kelnos wrote:
               | Why is that a problem, though? If we assume that the
               | Facebook, Instagram, and Whatsapp apps all have some
               | levels of good behavior and bad behavior, then we can
               | probably assume that the "Meta App Store" would be
               | similar. So what's the big deal if they require you to
               | install it?
               | 
               | They could also just offer direct app downloads from
               | facebook.com, instagram.com, etc.
               | 
               | So what? This feels like a nothingburger to me. Given how
               | sideloading is a much less pleasant experience on even
               | Android (and we can expect Apple to do worse), Facebook
               | wouldn't leave the main App Store without an earth-
               | shattering reason.
        
               | Jcowell wrote:
               | One would argue that the app stores provides a benefit to
               | the consumer that would not be implemented anywhere else
               | since these benefits are not lucrative. One example is
               | the ability to cancel subscriptions from one source, App
               | Privacy Reports, seeing when an app is reading from the
               | clipboard etc.
               | 
               | And no, entitlements mean nothing without enforcement.
        
               | ccouzens wrote:
               | > seeing when an app is reading from the clipboard
               | 
               | I expect that to be a operating system feature that works
               | regardless of how the application was developed or
               | installed.
        
               | Jensson wrote:
               | > One example is the ability to cancel subscriptions from
               | one source
               | 
               | You pay 40% extra for that. The creator gets $100, Apple
               | gets 40, you see $140 sticker price. It is a nice
               | feature, but how many would pay 40% extra for that? And
               | if many wanted to pay 40% extra for subscriptions to have
               | them cancellable, I'm sure there would already be
               | companies doing that.
        
               | NobodyNada wrote:
               | Apple's App Store has very strict privacy rules. Last
               | year Apple implemented the App Tracking Transparency
               | requirements, which Facebook says will cost them $10B in
               | lost revenue this year [0]. If sideloading becomes a
               | thing, I can definitely see Facebook requiring it in
               | order to get around these privacy rules.
               | 
               | [0]: https://hothardware.com/news/facebook-
               | claims-10b-revenue-hit...
        
               | osrec wrote:
               | Developer hostile != End user friendly
        
               | Jensson wrote:
               | Developers creates things users wants, developer hostile
               | is ultimately being user hostile when you are large
               | enough. Being developer hostile can create gains short
               | term, but that is mostly when you are a fringe, when
               | dominant parties starts being developer hostile it starts
               | hurting everyone as the tech sector as a whole becomes
               | less effective.
        
               | athrun wrote:
               | Developers create things users wants, of course, but they
               | also create things they want. Things like user tracking
               | or data harvesting.
               | 
               | There's an inherent trade off here where adding
               | safeguards to protect users will make the life of
               | developers more difficult. Balancing these two concerns
               | is hard.
               | 
               | I find that Apple mostly strikes the balance right, and
               | so I choose to be their customer. People who disagree
               | have other options available on the market today.
        
               | etchalon wrote:
               | OS users are vastly more lucrative, being more likely,
               | and willing, to spend money.
               | 
               | iOS has a lower-cost of support, with lower fragmentation
               | and higher churn.
               | 
               | With enough profit on the line, more companies would be
               | willing to suffer the lower user acquisition rate that
               | would come from side-loading.
        
           | tacitusarc wrote:
           | This is exactly my feeling.
           | 
           | Apple has no incentive to let other companies get away with
           | bad behavior. And so far, their own bad behavior has been
           | much better than other companies.
        
         | m463 wrote:
         | I'd like a firewall, that does not have to ask permission from
         | apple.
         | 
         | Apple's weak privacy stance is a farce, especially when ios
         | lets any app have unfettered network access.
         | 
         | Additionally its own software does a lot of not-good-for-me
         | things I'd like to prevent.
        
           | evanextreme wrote:
           | iOS doesn't do that anymore. Local network access has been a
           | permission that apps need to be granted for at least a few
           | years now
        
       | pyman wrote:
       | Very poor analysis and argument for sideloading apps. I'm neither
       | in favour nor against. I respect his opinion but the research he
       | did was very poor.
        
       | blakesterz wrote:
       | I thought this was interesting point, way near the end:
       | 
       | "Even if Apple allowed sideloading, I don't trust Apple to come
       | up with an elegant solution, though. They will put every warning
       | they can to discourage users from sideloading applications. It
       | could make the user experience miserable, worse than it is on
       | macOS. Why? Money is at stake here. A lot of money, actually.
       | Because Apple seems to be run by lawyers and greedy people, we
       | can expect everything."
        
         | NobodyNada wrote:
         | This is exactly what I (selfishly) want Apple to do. I don't
         | want Facebook, Google, and co. to require sideloading in order
         | to get around Apple's privacy rules, but I do want to be able
         | to run emulators without paying $99/year.
        
           | babypuncher wrote:
           | Yeah, it sounds like the best case scenario to me. It would
           | let us hobbyists and tinkerers have our fun while still
           | effectively forcing Google and Facebook to obey Apple's
           | strict privacy rules.
        
             | buggeryorkshire wrote:
             | I don't know why apple don't just allow third-party app
             | stores but with requirements like the new app store needs
             | to provide the push messaging, with the seriously large
             | investment that would require?
             | 
             | They could then warn users their battery life would be
             | worse, cos 2 persistent connections, and make it scary.
             | Meanwhile I, as an Android user would happily take up the
             | offer.
        
               | onemoresoop wrote:
               | > I don't know why apple don't just allow third-party app
               | stores
               | 
               | I'll tell you why: money.
        
       | __d wrote:
       | There is no _technical_ reason that Apple cannot maintain the
       | exact same review processes that they have today, or even more
       | stringent ones (that'd actually be good), BUT instead of then
       | putting the app in the AppStore, they simply sign it with with
       | the AppleBlessed(TM) key, and give the binary back to the
       | developer.
       | 
       | Whatever might happen to that binary between Apple signing it,
       | and the iOS installer getting hold of it DOES NOT MATTER -- if
       | the signature is still good, then it's no worse off than if it
       | was put in the AppStore.
       | 
       | The security argument is total BS.
        
         | EMIRELADERO wrote:
         | That wouldn't really change this for the better. This whole
         | thing is about Apple _not having the final say_.
        
           | __d wrote:
           | Sure, but it illustrates that Apple's argument that "it would
           | weaken security" is rubbish. It is technically possible to
           | allow side-loading with exactly the same security as provided
           | by the AppStore, if they simply used a signature to indicate
           | that an app had passed review.
           | 
           | It would still use the same sandpit, still use the same
           | permissions system, still able to be disabled by Apple, etc,
           | etc.
           | 
           | Without the argument that "it's less secure", it becomes
           | obvious that the only motivation is commercial.
        
       | saurik wrote:
       | > Apple isn't perfect. The App Store isn't perfect. Developers
       | aren't perfect. The App Store review team isn't perfect.
       | Everything isn't perfect.
       | 
       | This is key: because individual centralized actors are imperfect
       | and even corruptible--whether due to intrinsic motivations or
       | extrinsic application of force--it isn't acceptable to
       | concentrate so much power onto them; in a talk I gave at Mozilla
       | Privacy Lab a few years back, I covered a lot of these failure
       | cases throughout our industry with real-world "this actually
       | happened" examples, including (as this would of course be one of
       | my focuses) looking at numerous ways in which Apple's App Store
       | moderation has been the problem instead of the solution.
       | 
       | https://youtu.be/vsazo-Gs7ms
        
         | tshaddox wrote:
         | But as long as we have fairly effective enforcement of IP law,
         | so that e.g. only the publisher of a popular video game can get
         | away with distributing that video game to smartphone users,
         | don't you still have largely the same issue with concentration
         | of power? You still won't have different parties able to
         | compete in how Fortnite is distributed. The publisher of
         | Fortnite can choose how to distribute Fortnite, but that power
         | is still concentrated with the publisher, and arguably _even
         | more concentrated_ since the publisher would not be subject to
         | power from any particular app store.
        
         | starkruzr wrote:
         | just want to thank you for everything you've done for the iOS
         | user community these last 15 years. I left the platform when
         | Apple's success in fighting its own users became too much of a
         | pain point, but before that your work helped enable developers
         | to do some utterly fantastic stuff.
        
         | rektide wrote:
         | The Safari team is asking for feedback, after "Safari is the
         | new IE"[1] is getting steam again as an idea. This idea that
         | they want to do better is good, but your arguments really cut
         | into the heart of it.
         | 
         | Even if Safari turns the ship around & decides to support fun &
         | interesting new platform capabilities that make the web
         | interesting, like WebMIDI, WebUSB, the mere fact that Safari is
         | the gauntlet for innovation, that Apple & Apple alone gets to
         | say what parts of the web will work, is highly poisonous to the
         | web. iOS users having no choice, having a centralized actor now
         | & forever gating progress is untennable, is wrong, prevents
         | healthy emergence & discovery. However good they are today,
         | they may drift tomorrow, and having no fallback, no options is
         | a technocratic fascism that society should recognize as
         | structurally sick.
         | 
         | [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30277179
        
       | difosfor wrote:
       | These kinds of monopolistic practically unavoidable parts of our
       | lives should have been regulated long ago already. I'm afraid
       | given the existing political climates and tech lobbies that they
       | will still just circle around the problems though.
        
       | kstrauser wrote:
       | I'm so utterly torn on this. I want sideloading for my own
       | purposes, like installing classes of apps Apple would never
       | approve (such as a real Unix shell with native code compilers).
       | On the other hand, I absolutely _don 't_ want my older relatives
       | to be able to install stuff from wherever. I just know I'll have
       | a Thanksgiving conversation like "hey, could you look at my
       | phone? It's been getting hot after Microsoft called and helped me
       | install the new antivirus."
       | 
       | I don't have an answer for this. I'm all for people being able to
       | get around the garden walls. I just hope and pray that no one in
       | my "you use computers so you're my de facto tech support" circles
       | does it.
        
         | jcelerier wrote:
         | I'm sorry but who are you to decide what your relatives can or
         | cannot install ? I find this way of thinking super fascistic.
        
         | ghayes wrote:
         | I tend to think the issue is, in fact, security. If Apple (or
         | Google or anyone) had a truly secure phone, then there should
         | be no need for curation of apps. But our devices are full of
         | zero-day exploits and dangerous "private APIs." I think the
         | next generation (as in 20 years from today) of devices will
         | embrace a secure-by-default mindset and thus not make users
         | choose between the nanny-state and the wild west.
        
         | gleenn wrote:
         | Agreed. And I think the article's point about whether or not
         | Apple's store is safe or not is moot. The question really is,
         | how much worse would it be if they weren't there. I'll take a
         | good attempt at safety over the wild west. If you removed the
         | protections today, how much faster do you think the average
         | user would get pwn'd by a rogue app? Because at some point we
         | all will; security isn't black and white. The walled garden has
         | big problems, but the other side of the wall is way uglier.
        
       | lapetitejort wrote:
       | The vast majoring of apps I use on Android come from the Play
       | Store. I've sideloaded maybe five or six apps on Android since
       | the T-Mobile G1. It's not something I keep in the back of my
       | mind. But when I find an app I can only sideload, I really want
       | to do it, and I would be really annoyed if I couldn't use my
       | hardware the way I wanted.
        
         | syshum wrote:
         | F Droid is my first stop for anything I need, if I can not find
         | it there then I go to Play Store
         | 
         | F Droid is only possible because of side loading
        
       | iqanq wrote:
       | If you want to sideload then buy an Android... they are even
       | cheaper. It's not like they pulled the rug out from under you:
       | you already knew you couldn't sideload when you bought the phone.
        
         | ThatPlayer wrote:
         | >It's not like they pulled the rug out from under you
         | 
         | Situations and therefore opinions are allowed to change over
         | time. I could argue they pulled the rug out from under me when
         | they removed Fortnite from the store, or started blocking apps
         | I want such as Stadia. It's not like it's advertised on the
         | phone "Hey we'll remove any app from the store that we don't
         | like".
        
         | Dma54rhs wrote:
         | And if you don't like railway cartel you're free to ride a
         | horse?
        
           | tehwebguy wrote:
           | I definitely prefer iPhone but I don't think it's quite fair
           | to say _train : horse :: iphone : android_
        
             | jay_kyburz wrote:
             | Its actually not that bad. A train is stuck on the tracks,
             | only stops at stations. Owned by somebody else. A horse you
             | can own yourself and go anywhere.
        
           | ericmay wrote:
           | This is how the world works. I don't like the suburbs, yet
           | people keep building them and I don't really have a choice to
           | not live in them. If I go to the BMW dealership they won't
           | sell my an off-road version of a BMW equivalent to a Jeep. If
           | I go to Wal-Mart and I don't like their prices I can't make
           | them go down, but I can take my business elsewhere.
           | 
           | I see this highlighted all the time. When people agree with
           | how something works then there's no comment. When it doesn't
           | work how they want they believe they're being forced into a
           | novel love-it-or-leave-it scenario, when the reality is they
           | are in those scenarios all the time (daily/hourly even) and
           | support them as well. Don't believe me? Ok I want less
           | battery life on the iPhone and for it to be cheaper. Now
           | what? You'll say "cost is important to you there are cheaper
           | alternatives like X, Y, and Z". Same song.
           | 
           | tl;dr yea just buy an Android phone if sideloading apps is
           | the killer feature for you. If I want the best battery life
           | or the best camera I can base my purchase decision off of
           | those product features. Sideloading apps is no different.
           | That's a fact. Jack.
        
             | selfhoster11 wrote:
             | That assumes that side-loading is the only feature you care
             | about. I care about a lot of other things besides that, and
             | I decided I will be switching platforms because of that.
        
               | ericmay wrote:
               | Ok great! I think this is exactly how things should work.
               | Apple doesn't provide this "feature" in place of other
               | features that it does provide (Apple Pay, sign-in with
               | Apple, etc.). Similarly I could buy a phone that is
               | GoogleFi enabled if that was important to me. I could buy
               | a phone with the most megapixels, or that folds. Each of
               | these devices makes trade-offs that I don't like, so I
               | buy the product with the feature mix that I want the
               | most.
               | 
               | If side-loading is the only feature you care about,
               | Android is for you. If it's one of many, you may have to
               | make a trade off or pick between different mixes of
               | features. This is just how the world works and always
               | will work.
        
           | bee_rider wrote:
           | Is this really a suitable analogy? Horses seem pretty vastly
           | inferior to trains in many objective metrics, at least as far
           | as long-range transport for average people goes. I've always
           | used iOS, and while I like it, I can't imagine that Android
           | is so mind-blowingly behind, right? Maybe horses to bicycles
           | would be a better comparison? Which seems like less of a
           | problem.
        
             | yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
             | Okay, then it's like arguing that a rail cartel is okay
             | because people have cars, which are better in some ways,
             | except for the ways they aren't - that _is_ a mitigating
             | factor, but doesn 't make it okay.
        
             | colinmhayes wrote:
             | I've had an android. My social interactions went way down
             | because iPhone users refuse to download messaging apps and
             | SMS is slow as molasses. Apple has locked me into iOS with
             | a fucking messaging app.
        
               | tehwebguy wrote:
               | This is the only honest argument for this.
        
         | selfhoster11 wrote:
         | My next phone will be an iPhone. I say this as a long-term
         | Android user of over a decade. The Android platform has finally
         | become too toxic and too user-hostile even for the likes of me.
         | And that's quite a challenge.
         | 
         | If I'm gonna be ruled by an authoritarian mobile OS that
         | constantly tries to "engage" me, I might as well go for a nicer
         | one that still cares about UX and being less buggy.
        
           | jaywalk wrote:
           | > I might as well go for a nicer one that still cares about
           | UX and being less buggy.
           | 
           | iOS is straying further and further from that path with every
           | release, though. It's not Android-level, but it's far from
           | what it used to be.
        
         | EMIRELADERO wrote:
         | This is less about consumers and more about developers. Many
         | would want to reach iOS users with apps that are outright
         | disallowed on the App Store, such as emulators, VM hypervisors
         | or cloud gaming plattforms.
        
         | wudangmonk wrote:
         | There is a bigger issue at play here that ties in these
         | platform exclusive software stores with the right to repair
         | movement. These companies have convinced the general public
         | that buying their products only entitles you to have the
         | priviledge of using their products.
         | 
         | This is all done using the excuse that they are curators that
         | want to give you the best possible experience. It has worked
         | wonders too because now we debate not with these companies and
         | their hired help but with others who have been screwed over
         | just like us but are thankful for the experience.
        
       | xoa wrote:
       | I've said this repeatedly, but what I'd like would be a _buy-
       | time_ option to  "enable sideloading" (specifically, to enable
       | the hardware owner to add their own signing certificate to the
       | root keystore, iOS would still enforce full normal trust chaining
       | and such except that Apple wouldn't be the only valid root).
       | Because I think _not_ have sideloading is actively valuable in
       | many cases too and thus should itself remain an option (and
       | probably the default) for purchaser. Leaving the power with Apple
       | has obvious downsides, but it also has upsides in terms of
       | pooling negotiating power of users vs powerful developers and
       | entirely eliminating a large class of possible social engineering
       | attacks. The reason Apple has been able to enforce privacy
       | protections vs Facebook for a current example is that there is no
       | sideloading. Period. Facebook is a powerful enough entity vs its
       | users[products] that if they _could_ demand that users sideload
       | the  "Facebook store" and then run root from there they could get
       | a sufficient mass to do so that they could then afford to ignore
       | Apple and do an end run. Can see the same thing play out with
       | stuff like Zoom, Dropbox etc: on iOS all these are applications
       | in the App Store and must abide by all the privacy, disclosure,
       | and so on rules. On the Mac, they demand their own clients which
       | get a lot more powers.
       | 
       | Of course, the MAS is a pile of shit, Apple has utterly fucked up
       | on basic great software business things like "upgrade pricing",
       | and there are lots of examples of fantastic decent small/med size
       | software devs doing their own Mac software same as always. Apple
       | certainly has perverse incentives they have abused, primarily
       | around service integration (can't aim backups at any storage
       | provider for example). Also, it all breaks down when there is an
       | entity MORE powerful than Apple like a major government. Then
       | Apple becomes a single point of failure for censorship and
       | control, and indeed that ties right back into the former. We
       | don't have E2EE encrypted wireless backups for iDevices because
       | of Apple caving to "security" agencies.
       | 
       | But still, it cuts both ways and I really appreciate that less
       | technical (but still very smart!) users, including vulnerable
       | members of my own family and friends, can have a platform in iOS
       | which has much stronger guardrails that they cannot physically be
       | talked into bypassing. I think giving those who ask for hardware,
       | software, or both root cert access that access is enough of a
       | release valve (these are probably all the same people who would
       | jailbreak which is much worse) to help check Apple and bypass the
       | big failing points while still accommodating the hundreds of
       | millions of users whose threat models involve worse from other
       | corporations. And it'd help nudge Apple's incentives in a good
       | direction even for those staying fully within the walled garden
       | by making them balance a bit on keeping them there.
        
         | idle_zealot wrote:
         | Mostly agree. Rather than a buy-time setting though, I think it
         | should work like Chromebook dev mode. Put the option in the
         | settings, but require a device reset/wipe to activate it. Then
         | while the dev is in this mode show a message on every boot.
        
           | xoa wrote:
           | > _Put the option in the settings, but require a device reset
           | /wipe to activate it._
           | 
           | Hrm. I don't think that actually would be as effective on
           | iOS, reset/wipe is essentially setting up a new phone or a
           | recovery procedure that is meant to be quite easy and near
           | fully automated if time consuming. Which means the bar to
           | social engineering is either very low because it follows the
           | existing workflow and restores from backup ("click this
           | before going to bed that's it"), or if it wouldn't allow
           | restoring a non-root backup to a root device then it really
           | screws the utility for all of us who want root ownership over
           | our normal hardware (me included). This would not at all be a
           | "dev mode" after all, it'd be a more normal
           | Windows/Mac/Linux/BSD use mode including for people who never
           | intend to ever write a single piece of software but do want
           | stuff that Apple doesn't allow/enable.
           | 
           | Still an interesting different potential path.
        
       | tshaddox wrote:
       | The odd thing about this article is that it seems like the author
       | is conceding to removing all restrictions on third-party software
       | being installed on the iPhone _because Apple is not currently
       | restrictive enough on what third-party software makes it into
       | their App Store_.
       | 
       | I suppose I can understand the appeal of that argument, since it
       | does resolve apparent hypocrisy and lying in Apple's statements
       | about its policies, but crucially this argument doesn't actually
       | address whether allowing sideloading will be good for users,
       | despite the author indicating that they think it will be ("Until
       | today, I thought forbidding applications sideloading on the
       | iPhone was good for users. But...").
       | 
       | All the arguments that preventing sideloading protects users
       | still apply, and haven't actually been addressed in this article.
        
       | Crontab wrote:
       | I am pro-sideloading but I think it has to be done in a way that
       | people cam't be tricked into doing it.
       | 
       | Speaking personally, the only thing I want to sideload is Mame
       | (assuming an iOS version exists).
        
       | anonymouse008 wrote:
       | If sideloading means code signing becomes as difficult as it is
       | on the Mac, then there's nothing to fear...
        
       | pyman wrote:
       | Very poor analysis and not at all compelling argument for
       | sideloading apps.
        
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       (page generated 2022-02-09 23:00 UTC)