[HN Gopher] Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns?
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Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns?
Intuit, the owner of TurboTax is one of the largest players in tax
e-filing. How do they seem to employ so many dark patterns with
little complaint from consumers? TurboTax employs user hostile UI
patterns that attempt to get consent to release filing information
to Intuit and 3rd parties, switch to more expensive plans, and open
new Credit Karma accounts (another Intuit owned property). I don't
understand why consumers are not more frustrated.
Author : cebert
Score : 40 points
Date : 2022-02-20 21:43 UTC (1 hours ago)
| Arubis wrote:
| Dark patterns are evil, not illegal (usually). And virtually
| anyone with sufficient political influence to do anything about
| this uses an actual accountant rather than DIY.
| MrApathy wrote:
| Is there a consensus on whose software we should be using
| instead? I get that they're all bad, but which one is least bad?
| ytdytvhxgydvhh wrote:
| Why would I be mad at Intuit? They're an amoral profit-seeking
| company seeking profit. I'm furious at the IRS and Congress for
| not providing me with a free, simple federal tax filing solution.
| I know there are free file programs for certain income brackets
| or tax situations, but it's outrageous that the IRS has colluded
| with Intuit (and other paid tax preparers) by strongly
| recommending that taxpayers file electronically but then not
| provide a free solution across the board.
| CAPSLOCKSSTUCK wrote:
| ^ This. It's so obnoxious that the _only way_ to e-file is to
| go through one of these companies, unless your income falls
| below a certain (not-very-generous) threshold.
| detcader wrote:
| Why would I be mad at the guy who stabbed me? He is simply a
| collection of atoms following fatalistic processes. I'm furious
| at the knife and knife makers for not providing me with a stab-
| wound-free epidermis.
| lostcolony wrote:
| First, you can still e-file for free. You just don't get any
| guidance on filling out the forms.
|
| Second, the reason it's this way...is because of the excessive
| lobbying to keep it this way, of which Intuit is one of the
| largest players. In fact, there is no reason for the IRS not to
| just tell you "here is what we think you owe/should be
| refunded", and for you to say "Nope, here's why (and e-file
| relevant forms)", or "Yep, that's correct", except that
| lobbying has prevented it (well, and the last time it came up
| one of the two political parties was against it ostensibly
| because 'big government')
| TillE wrote:
| > First, you can still e-file for free.
|
| Only for certain definitions of "you". All the available
| offers have various restrictions.
| teraflop wrote:
| AFAIK there are no restrictions on who can use the IRS's
| Free Fillable Forms, though there are a few fairly obscure
| forms it doesn't support.
|
| https://www.irs.gov/e-file-providers/free-file-fillable-
| form...
| daemoens wrote:
| The IRS didn't collude, congress did. They're the ones who
| cutting their budget, year after year.
|
| _> Intuit revved its new lobbying machine. Even before the OMB
| report was publicly released, a group of Republican lawmakers,
| led by TurboTax's hometown congressman, wrote to the agency
| arguing that there was no reason for the government to
| "compete" with the "well-established" private tax prep
| companies. Intuit's lobbyists also went above the OMB and
| pressed their case directly to the White House, Forman
| recalled.
|
| >At the IRS, "all hell broke loose," remembered Terry Lutes,
| who was then the head of electronic filing at the agency.
| Intuit's clout on the Hill meant that lawmakers were soon
| accusing the IRS of making "secret plans to undercut the
| industry," Lutes said. The agency ran the risk of seeing its
| funding cut if it were to pursue the Bush plan.
|
| >The IRS commissioner at the time, Charles Rossotti, also
| opposed the idea. The IRS' customer service staff, already too
| thin to respond adequately to Americans' questions about the
| tax code, would have to grow substantially to handle millions
| of software queries. Congress "will never give you sufficient
| funding," Rossotti told ProPublica._
|
| https://www.propublica.org/article/inside-turbotax-20-year-f...
| paulgb wrote:
| I hate Intuit for the reasons mentioned here. I'll need to choose
| business accounting software soon and QuickBooks seems have a
| grip on that market, what are the alternatives I should look at?
| RubberSoul wrote:
| I recently had Intuit delete all my personal data, across all
| their products. Doing this was exhausting. Their online process
| for deleting an account did not work. Contacting customer support
| resulted in unhelpful back and forth. Finally, I gave up and
| filed a complaint with the CA Attorney General. Within two weeks,
| I got a call from someone at Intuit who quickly resolved the
| issue and promised to delete all my Intuit-owned accounts (it
| seems to have worked).
|
| I tell the story because I think it illustrates a lot of reasons
| companies can get away with bad behavior:
|
| 1. Only a subset of consumers recognize the bad behavior and know
| who to contact.
|
| 2. Most consumers are not motivated to complain. In the above
| story, most people would probably stop when the Intuit website
| doesn't work (I usually give up too). There is a free-rider
| problem. My complaint could benefit lots of people if a company
| changes its behavior, but I alone incur the cost of complaining.
|
| 3. When a consumer successfully complains, companies can
| sometimes quietly make the problem go away _for the one consumer_
| and avoid regulatory action. Intuit called me, resolved the issue
| _only for me_ , and we both move on. With the issue resolved, the
| regulator has less reason to continue investigating.
|
| 4. Even when regulators get enough complaints and go after bad
| behavior, they are up against powerful attorneys and lobbyists.
| And even if the regulators win, the company probably has lots of
| substitute ways of achieving the same goals that weren't
| contemplated or prohibited by the settlement/law/etc.
| sleepydog wrote:
| You would think there would be more political will for a
| government to make taxation as smooth and painless as possible
| for its citizens. I don't hate paying income tax because I "lose"
| money, I hate it because the process is a massive pain in the
| ass, and if I make a mistake (how can you not), I risk being
| fined, or worse.
|
| Turbo Tax also provides some kind of service to help you if the
| IRS comes after you for some errors. One of my friends paid extra
| for this, him made a simple calculation error in their tax
| return, the IRS came after him for it, and Turbo Tax didn't do
| shit because he made the error, not Turbo Tax. So they're giving
| you the opportunity to pay them extra to cover the cost of their
| mistakes.
|
| I honestly think more people would be willing to pay higher taxes
| if the process was low-effort for most people. For example, if
| you work for a company that witholds taxes from your paycheck,
| you shouldn't have to do anything; either you get a check in the
| mail if you over-payed, or a bill if you under-payed, and you
| answer a yes/no question to adjust your W-4 for the next year.
| warning26 wrote:
| _> I honestly think more people would be willing to pay higher
| taxes if the process was low-effort for most people._
|
| TBH I think this is why Intuit has been so successful in their
| lobbying efforts. A key goal of many politicians is to create
| tax breaks for the rich, and by making taxes as complicated as
| possible, they can trick the populace into agreeing to just
| about anything that would "simplify" the tax code.
| dsjoerg wrote:
| "with little complaint from consumers" -- how do you know there
| isn't a great deal of complaint?
|
| "I don't understand why consumers are not more frustrated." --
| they are extremely frustrated, why do you think they're not
| frustrated?
| cebert wrote:
| I don't see a consumer movement urging legislators to make
| reforms on this issue. I don't see a great deal of resentment
| on social media. If we don't collectively take action, this
| situation will never improve.
| kwertyoowiyop wrote:
| When was the last time someone in a televised "town hall"
| asked a candidate about simplifying tax filing? Honest
| question -- I really can't ever recall it.
| ada1981 wrote:
| The entire us tax system is a legislative dark pattern that
| funnels people into accounting outfits like TurboTax.
| nostrademons wrote:
| Aside from the "you only use it once a year" answer that's
| already been mentioned - there are ways to get out of the dark
| patterns, if you're alert enough. It's the same reason there
| isn't more of an outcry against abusive practices in the credit
| card industry - the most affluent and educated CC users, those
| who would be likely to lead an effective campaign for change,
| always pay off their bill in full and never deal with the CC
| industry's abusive practices. So it goes with TurboTax - if you
| give consumers an out, their much more likely to blame themselves
| (or blame the people caught up in it) when they're taken
| advantage of.
| Jerry2 wrote:
| > _How_
|
| They have lobbyists [0][1], and people don't.
|
| [0] https://www.propublica.org/article/inside-
| turbotax-20-year-f...
|
| [1]
| https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2021-10-21/california...
| pirate787 wrote:
| Actually the worst dark pattern is implemented by the IRS. No
| doubt lobbying keeps it this way.
|
| The process for online filing with the IRS is a hot mess, and
| extremely difficult to navigate. For example, it is impossible
| for me to file 1099-NEC for my contractors without first
| obtaining a special ID delivered via mail in 45 days. I can't
| print and mail from the IRS website either -- I have to first
| request the form. Check out this cryptic mess
|
| https://fire.irs.gov/
| oneplane wrote:
| Isn't that because the creators or TubroTax had a lawsuit
| against the government because the IRS modernising their
| software-based filing would cut into their commercial efforts?
| UncleMeat wrote:
| I use TurboTax.
|
| The reason I use it is that I've used it in the past and I know
| it works for my somewhat weird tax situation. It sucks. Intuit is
| a terrible company. But there is _no way_ to know that I 'll be
| able to actually navigate the wizard for some other product
| before I dive in. And all of the free options _definitely_ don 't
| support my situation. If I wanted free I'd be stuck with the raw
| forms and I'm not confident I'd do it all right.
|
| I'm a weirdo and I actually like the precision of doing taxes,
| but the consequences of botching it are very high. So I go with
| the thing I'm familiar with and I get mad that TurboTax is taking
| $110 of my dollars every year for crap that should be done much
| more simply.
| reincarnate0x14 wrote:
| They are frustrated, they're simply not aware that Intuit and
| other players have exercised regulatory capture to make it so
| awful and blame "the government" since the IRS is the face of it.
|
| Other modernized nations have nothing like this insanity, often
| sending people yearly reports they can accept (since for most
| cases they are accurate) or send in amendments. This is far from
| the only issue that business interests have made the USA almost
| uniquely fucking stupid about.
| Darmody wrote:
| The government here (Spain) knows the money I make just as any
| government knows about its citizens.
|
| When I'm to do my taxes, I get an auto generated draft and the
| only thing I have to do is click the "Accept" button.
|
| You only have to fill your taxes manually if you're self
| employed or have some sort of earnings other than your job, in
| which case, the company that does you accounting, does the
| taxes for you too in 15 min.
| dec0dedab0de wrote:
| _sending people yearly reports they can accept (since for most
| cases they are accurate) or send in amendments._
|
| This would be perfect. It doesn't make any sense that my
| employer, banks, etc has to send everything in, but then I do
| to.
|
| I wish someone would set up a class action lawsuit against the
| IRS on behalf of everyone with ADHD, claiming that forcing
| everyone to do tedious paperwork is a violation of the ADA.
| cebert wrote:
| That's my frustration. Tax filing should be a free service of
| the IRS for everyone. The process could be much better too. The
| IRS already has my W2s, 1099s, etc. There's no reason I need to
| resupply what they already know.
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| jevoten wrote:
| There _is_ a reason - lobbying:
| https://www.propublica.org/article/inside-
| turbotax-20-year-f...
| [deleted]
| DantesKite wrote:
| From what I understand (and I could be wrong) they spend a decent
| amount of money lobbying politicians in Congress.
|
| Customers are very much frustrated though and I believe the Cash
| app started letting people file taxes for free this year.
| mcs5280 wrote:
| MeinBlutIstBlau wrote:
| kerneloftruth wrote:
| The final straw for me was in 2019. My 3 year old version of
| QuickBooks Pro refused to import any more bank transactions until
| I upgraded to a newer version. Nothing had changed with data
| formats or anything -- it was simple extortion: upgrade or the
| software you own will cease working (fully).
|
| Fuck them. I just wrote my own. I first tried some alternatives
| like GNUcash, but found it best to just write what I needed
| (account ledgers, reconcile bank statements, generate P&L and BS
| reports). I refused any other solution with any dependencies on
| "the cloud" or any entity.
|
| QB is truly about the shittiest software on the planet, a
| reputation maintained and expanded over the decades. The simplest
| recourse, with minimal emotional toll, is to just not use their
| crap.
| danielfoster wrote:
| People only file their taxes once a year and just want to move
| on.
|
| Industries with infrequent transactions are more prone to abuse
| like this.
| kwertyoowiyop wrote:
| It isn't a coincidence that Tax Day (April 15) is about as far
| away from Election Day (November 6) as it's possible to be!
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(page generated 2022-02-20 23:00 UTC)