[HN Gopher] Show HN: Simula One - Portable Linux VR Computer
___________________________________________________________________
Show HN: Simula One - Portable Linux VR Computer
Hi HN, My name is George, and I am helping build an office focused
VR headset called the "Simula One". It was discussed recently here:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28695455. We have just opened
our store for preorders (https://shop.simulavr.com), so that we and
our backers can help people replace their old PCs/laptops with more
capable VR headsets. We call our headset a "VR Computer" (or a
"VRC") to distinguish it from gaming headsets. When Simula was
founded, most people thought the future of VR was in games &
entertainment. The truth is that VR offers a superior way for
performing knowledge work, but until now there haven't been
dedicated VR computing devices available on the market. While
existing headsets are optimized for gaming, ours is optimized for
productivity: it features bleeding edge high-resolution displays,
has a detachable compute pack with specs comparable to a premium
office laptop (x86 architecture), and runs a VR specialized Linux
distro optimized for clear text. VRCs offer several advantages
over Laptops & PCs: they provide unlimited screens of any size,
improve work focus & immersion, are usable outdoors (no laptop
glare), improve privacy (no one around you can snoop your screen),
and their compact design frees up desk space. They also promote
better posture and freedom of movement: with a VR computer you can
change positions, sit up, lean back, stand, lie down, or even walk
while you compute. Our project started out as an open-source VR
window manager (https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula), which you can
try out today on the Valve Index or HTC Vive. It's built over Drew
Devault's wlroots and the Godot game engine. Once our compositor
became relatively stable, we ran into the issue of "no other
manufacturer wanted to offer us Linux support" (thinking there was
no market for something so niche, I imagine?). So we decided to
build our own =] We are happy to answer any question (technical or
otherwise) about our project.
Author : georgewsinger
Score : 358 points
Date : 2022-02-23 13:42 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (shop.simulavr.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (shop.simulavr.com)
| stocknoob wrote:
| So many people are complaining about price of a first gen
| enthusiast device.
|
| You know the Apple II (~1500 in 1977) is 5k in modern dollars,
| and sold over 5m units, right?
|
| If the device solves a genuine productivity problem for you, 3k
| is cheap.
| throw10920 wrote:
| A first-gen enthusiast device _with first-class Linux support_
| , even.
|
| > If the device solves a genuine productivity problem for you,
| 3k is cheap.
|
| Exactly! I expect my productivity to go up _significantly_ when
| I upgrade from a few 2D monitors to a 3D virtual space.
|
| Also, "if you're not paying, you're the product" still applies
| when you pay $300 for a device like the Quest that slurps your
| data straight to Zuckerberg as fast as humanly possible.
| Aeolun wrote:
| > You know the Apple II (~1500 in 1977) is 5k in modern
| dollars, and sold over 5m units, right?
|
| I think the difference might be in the price point of all your
| competitors, or the increased marginal utility of your product.
|
| Using this headset over any of the existing ones, what benefit
| do I get? The software is already open, so I can use it with
| _any_ headset. My sole concern is getting the absolute best
| headset.
| stocknoob wrote:
| Per the OP:
|
| > While existing headsets are optimized for gaming, ours is
| optimized for productivity: it features bleeding edge high-
| resolution displays, has a detachable compute pack with specs
| comparable to a premium office laptop (x86 architecture), and
| runs a VR specialized Linux distro optimized for clear text.
|
| Sure, if you can find a standalone headset with comparable
| resolution, CPU, and OS, use that!
| rvz wrote:
| > If the device solves a genuine productivity problem for you,
| 3k is cheap.
|
| I don't know why anyone would buy this contraption that costs
| more than a Oculus / Meta Quest or a HTC Vive and is targeted
| at consumers.
|
| Like you said; it is a _' first gen'_ which usually means this
| is an instant don't buy. Even if you wait for it to be cheaper,
| the use-cases are already limited with the consumers getting
| frustrated and will just purchase an Oculus VR headset from
| Meta.
|
| The next consumer product that will have a mass adoption like
| the iPhone, will certainly be AR glasses from either Apple,
| Google or Meta.
|
| Definitely not VR headsets and contraptions like this one which
| that ship has already sailed.
| moron4hire wrote:
| I've been hearing people say "VR is dead, AR has killed it"
| for the last 10 years straight, all while not knowing anyone
| using AR past novelty apps, all while enjoying the biggest
| year for VR. Every. Single. Year.
| pjmlp wrote:
| The first time I saw someone using a VR headset, was
| someone playing Doom with one in 1995.
|
| It has been more than 10 years.
| crtasm wrote:
| 10 years of the claim, not since VR became available.
| ianbutler wrote:
| So the Quest 2 sold over 12million headsets in the last year.
| And over the last few years VR has seen a growth rate of over
| 20% YOY. I always wonder if when people like you make a
| comment if you actually look at figures or just go with your
| gut because you don't like something. I'm guessing the
| latter. The mass adoption is happening right under your nose,
| an entire generation of US kids are growing up with VR right
| now because of the perfect storm of lack of consoles, a
| pandemic keeping them home and widely available cheap
| hardware from Meta.
| Qello wrote:
| In my opinion it's more the contrast and the expectation.
|
| I am waiting for something like the metaverse and I do
| realize that it will not happen as hoped.
|
| I got 3D glasses in 2005 or so when I had a crt display and
| it was a fun novelty.
|
| I watched 3D movies in the cinema and it's a nice novelty
| but I do prefer a brighter screen.
|
| I watched 3D movie on a flat screen display and it was
| okay.
|
| I got a HTC vive pro with wireless and valve index
| controllers and it's also a nice novelty so far.
|
| VR is in my opinion a success if it becomes normal but no
| one really uses it day to day.
|
| 20 million devices? From a global company? In a market were
| 14 year old kids already own a 1000$ phone? Success I don't
| know.
|
| People bought 3D televisions as well so that's that.
|
| My personal expectation was that VR is going to be used for
| training people to drive, industriel training and
| lighthearted sports. But as something central like I
| imagined the metaverse or what ready player one proposed?
| We are far away from that.
|
| That portable Linux VR headset will lay around at plenty of
| places of nerds having fun of it for a bit and then it
| becomes obsolete. An expensive toy.
| ianbutler wrote:
| I'll start by saying I don't want a metaverse and no one
| else I know with VR headsets do either. We really like
| them as media consumption devices and for gaming,
| chatting and working out. But I don't want to or need to
| live in the device and they don't either.
|
| You have to look at the curve of adoption VS total
| number, the trajectory they're on. In only 3 years
| they've managed to grow to that number. If it continues
| they will be at console numbers in under 10 years. Which
| a quick Google has told me before is about 85-100 million
| consoles.
|
| Gaming and media, fitness and social are massive multi
| 100s of billion dollar markets and I see that being the
| long term success of VR not this live your life in it
| type deal.
|
| Also friendly reminder a lot of these cyberpunkesque
| films and shows are dystopic in nature it's not to be
| emulated it's to depict failings of society that led to
| those states. I love the aesthetic of cyberpunk as much
| as anyone else but the societies they live in are
| warnings to us, not desired outcomes.
| Aeolun wrote:
| > VR is in my opinion a success if it becomes normal but
| no one really uses it day to day.
|
| I think pretty much all the members of my family
| regularly play games in VR (on their own headsets).
|
| > But as something central like I imagined the metaverse
| or what ready player one proposed?
|
| We don't actually want that. That movie was supposed to
| display something dystopian. Meta _is_ something
| dystopian.
| georgewsinger wrote:
| Heh. My personal take on Facebook's Metaverse[1] is that
| it jams the entire framing of VR computing through the
| prism of "social network", which causes all kinds of poor
| product focus and misaligned incentives.
|
| With that said, I personally don't mind Meta selling
| Quest units at a loss. It's been a net good for the
| ecosystem (IMO), and has exposed a lot of people to VR
| who wouldn't be able to afford a headset otherwise. I
| just think their product direction & focus is otherwise
| shit.
|
| [1] https://simulavr.com/blog/we-dont-want-the-metaverse/
| rvz wrote:
| > So the Quest 2 sold over 12million headsets in the last
| year. And over the last few years VR has seen a growth rate
| of over 20% YOY.
|
| Right. So how on earth does this _' Simula One'_ stand a
| chance against the rest of the competition, especially when
| Apple, Sony, Microsoft plan on or are already competing
| against Meta?
|
| Compared to the competition, price and adoption, the _'
| Simula One'_ is a first-gen obsolete contraption.
|
| > I always wonder if when people like you make a comment if
| you actually look at figures or just go with your gut
| because you don't like something.
|
| Then you are just as bad as I am. Pulling figures without
| sources and then saying _' actually look at figures'_ isn't
| evidence. Where is the source for the 12 Million and 20%
| YoY? Just Google it isn't evidence either.
|
| Then this this also you:
|
| > an entire generation of US kids are growing up with VR
| right now because of the perfect storm of lack of consoles,
| a pandemic keeping them home...
|
| The US is not the world and people (and kids) simply won't
| stay in-doors forever, since lockdowns aren't forever. It's
| quite silly to think that kids would want to stay in-doors
| like they did in the pandemic to justify the 'need' for VR
| other than playing games in the metaverse.
|
| For devices like Simula One, it's dead on arrival due to
| the mindshare of the Oculus / Meta Quest. If there was the
| next device to surpass the iPhone, it is simply AR glasses.
| Otherwise, why exactly is Google [0] Meta [1] trying to get
| there before Apple eventually does?
|
| > ...and widely available cheap hardware from Meta.
|
| Thank you for confirming that the _' Simula One'_ stands no
| chance at all against Meta Quest.
|
| [0] https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/30/google-acquires-north-
| augmen...
|
| [1] https://www.roadtovr.com/project-nazare-ar-glasses-
| facebooks...
| ianbutler wrote:
| I don't think it would, but it doesn't have to because
| they're not targeting the same market which is pretty
| obvious. And that wasn't your initial argument either,
| your argument was a generalization against the whole of
| VR.
| neonbones wrote:
| >For devices like Simula One, it's dead on arrival due to
| the mindshare of the Oculus / Meta Quest.
|
| I don't understand why you (and other users here) compare
| this to Oculus. Oculus is a Redmi phone of VR. Yeah,
| people buy it, and most individuals (~70% of steam users)
| buy 1080 monitors.
|
| Still, there is a considerable market for 6k Apple
| Displays or 4k monitors. And people still buy top-tier
| phones for ~1k USD when they can buy a model for 250-300
| and get 90% features and performance (usually except
| camera) of a 1k device.
|
| I got Oculus Quest and used a few other VR and still will
| consider Simula because it's a device for me, someone who
| buys 6k Apple Display, 64 GB ram laptops, and 3080Ti GPU.
| Someone who wants crisp fonts, high PPI, optimized DE for
| Linux system. Because I need it for my needs, and there
| are million people like me.
| al2o3cr wrote:
| I always wonder if when people like you make a
| comment if you actually look at figures or just go
| with your gut because you don't like something. I'm
| guessing the latter.
|
| On the other hand, I don't wonder whether people who think
| negging is an argument are fanbois.
| ianbutler wrote:
| Well since you cut out my actual argument and
| substantiation I guess you could see it that way. I tend
| to negg on top of making my arguments though.
| bee_rider wrote:
| Even in the 90's, computers were like a couple thousand
| dollars.
| Xevi wrote:
| What does the tethered version weigh? My biggest gripe with the
| Oculus Quest 2 is how heavy it is. If the tethered version of the
| Simula One is considerably lighter, then I'm interested.
| vbuterin wrote:
| Amazing work! I preordered one and am very much looking forward
| to trying it out.
| kanetw wrote:
| Thank you! It was pretty exciting seeing your name on the order
| list.
|
| I guess it comes with the territory of selling a product that
| eventually you see a name that you recognize :)
| georgewsinger wrote:
| Echoing what David (kanetw) already said, but: super honored to
| have you as one of our preorder backers. If you have any
| questions/feedback about your headset or our project, please
| don't hesitate to reach out.
| Aeolun wrote:
| It used to be that companies had products ready for sale before
| trying to sell them. Generally with production being funded by a
| loan.
|
| Is this something that's just impossible now? Or banks don't want
| to fund something like this?
| kanetw wrote:
| It's really incredibly hard to get a loan nowadays. And finding
| a VC that won't stick their nose in too much is also really
| hard.
|
| George knows more about it, but even an established company I'm
| familiar with could not get a loan without personal guarantees
| from the CEO last year.
| DIVx0 wrote:
| This is a really interesting project
|
| I hope it succeeds and future iterations are either more
| affordable OR gains so much traction that its easy to justify the
| cost. At this price point I could only talk myself into it if the
| Simula was my primary computer which I think I'd have a hard time
| using it as such.
|
| Anyway, I am probably one amongst many who are watching this
| space waiting for experience reports and emerging ecosystems from
| braver early adopters.
| georgewsinger wrote:
| Thanks for your support. Though our goal is for people to
| replace their PCs/Laptops with VR Computers as their primary
| computing device, we recognize this is a tall order and will
| require a lot of hard work and proof over time for people to
| see that they're actually better.
|
| We're expecting review units to be available in a few months.
| barrenko wrote:
| Good luck, I've dreamt about this as a kid.
| danielmarkbruce wrote:
| If you were guaranteed to sell 100k units, what could you price
| the standalone at?
| kanetw wrote:
| 100k? 2k should be doable without compromising on the specs.
| danielmarkbruce wrote:
| Is there some number of units where you could hit $1k on all
| in cost per unit?
| reitanqild wrote:
| I badly want this to succeed.
|
| I don't care much about the Facebook device, but this is
| something I could have bought if I wasn't still a bit cash
| strapped.
|
| That said, I'm expecting a nice raise (or a significantly better
| paid job) this year so it might not be too far away, even with
| more than three kids in the house.
|
| At least I wish you 1. spectacular success 2. that you stay sane
| and true and don't sell out to Facebook or any other monster
| kanetw wrote:
| Thank you! We want to avoid being bought at all costs :)
| nonplus wrote:
| I see a lot of comments on the pricing of this hardware. It's
| going to be more expensive (for the end user) to build a headset
| (and FOSS window manager) than a product like the quest. Meta has
| a suite of products bringing in capitol by selling user PII.
| Valve has a distribution platform to offset costs.
|
| If you want to see a product that is open end to end and is not
| part of an ecosystem selling your information, then it has to be
| funded.
|
| I realize most of the people reading this don't want a moral
| argument for spending $2k-$4k on a HMD, but thats what I am
| offering.
|
| We should have multiple openXR compatible headsets to choose
| from, and specialized window managers that 'just work' in VR.
| Fund the FOSS projects you want to see in the world so others
| will follow.
| emptysongglass wrote:
| But it doesn't matter. All of the reasons in the world for how
| expensive it is don't make a difference to the result: it's
| still too expensive.
|
| Costs must go down before they'll see the kind of units moving
| they need to fund development.
| MisterTea wrote:
| Same argument was made against Tesla. Now, nearly every auto
| maker has a more affordable electric car offering because of
| them.
| reaperducer wrote:
| _But it doesn 't matter. All of the reasons in the world for
| how expensive it is don't make a difference to the result:
| it's still too expensive. Costs must go down before they'll
| see the kind of units moving they need to fund development._
|
| Seems to work for Apple. All they have to do is provide a
| superior product. That's the hard part.
| gorjusborg wrote:
| It is definitely too expensive for broad adoption, but maybe
| it doesn't need broad adoption?
|
| I might buy one if I could find a way to experience it first.
| kanetw wrote:
| We'll be able to have reviewable prototype units in a few
| months. Depending on how many critical components
| (displays, primarily) we have we might be able to set up
| some way to test it for non-reviewers.
| gorjusborg wrote:
| Nice!
|
| Based on your wording, seems like you are involved with
| the project?
|
| If so, I love the idea you all are chasing.
|
| As a software developer, I've often thought about how
| great it would be to be able to take my setup with me
| without having to compromise on display. The current
| generation HMD is obviously not the end-game everyone is
| looking for, but you all obviously get the paradigm.
| kanetw wrote:
| Yes, I'm the other co-founder (David)
| nonplus wrote:
| Not really, their break even (and by that, I mean ideal bulk
| pricing of components) for units sold is under 1000 units.
| The Simula one is not trying to sell 100k units. If you think
| thats the case, your expectations are wrong.
|
| Re (software) development: Yes it will need funding, but it's
| there right now https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula and is
| agnostic/works with any openXR headset.
| georgewsinger wrote:
| For reference, our breakeven sales target is 892 headsets (or
| $2.4M in sales). We recently made a blog post outlining our
| unit cost model in more detail.[1] At the time, we were still
| planning on using Kickstarter, so the model has changed
| somewhat. We ultimately decided to host our own campaign to
| save on Kickstarter fees (passing down a $100 discount on
| headset prices).
|
| Also: for an additional headset discount, see
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30441697
|
| [1] https://simulavr.com/blog/kickstarter-pricing/
| moron4hire wrote:
| Simula is working on a paradigm shift of computing. We're
| looking at the price and comparing it to buying a smartphone
| or gaming console. The Simula device doesn't aspire to be a
| secondary device. It wants to be a primary device, replacing
| your laptop.
|
| The closest device in comparison to this one is not a Quest 2
| or even a Valve Index. Those are both secondary devices that
| do not offer anything other than canned, theme-park-like
| experiences that sit completely aside the rest of your
| computer. The closest competing device is actually a HoloLens
| 2. HoloLens with Windows Holographic is the only device on
| the market that has support for a general purpose computing
| interface. And HoloLens 2s are still US$3500/ea.
|
| Whether you agree a VR computer as a primary device is a good
| thing is a different issue.
| gorjusborg wrote:
| I've spent 2k _just on a monitor_.
|
| I'm more surprised that the quest is so cheap, but then I
| remember exactly what you said: the quest is not the product,
| _I am the product_.
|
| Then I remember why I don't use Meta products anymore.
| throwaway1777 wrote:
| It's not so much that you are the product in meta's vr
| offerings, it's that quest is a loss leader because the rest
| of meta is so profitable.
| gorjusborg wrote:
| I wouldn't be so sure.
|
| Meta forced Oculus users to transition to a Facebook login
| after they had already bought the device.
|
| They are a surveillance company who collects, correlates
| and sells personal information. They aren't going to stop
| at the VR boundary and suddenly change their mission.
| kanetw wrote:
| Absolutely. I think that proposition was incredibly clear
| back when they used to offer Oculus for Business, which
| was like $800-900? Now they don't even offer that.
| ganzuul wrote:
| It is strange that paying for being a product that is sold
| has become normalized. Then again slavery was common not long
| ago.
| gorjusborg wrote:
| Agreed, it is a bit strange, but I do feel like people are
| slowly getting wise to the swindle.
|
| Unfortunately, I think socioeconomic pressures are also
| pushing people to compromise in ways that are not in their
| best interest, even if they do get it. In other words,
| they'll get the 'cheap' product that invades their privacy,
| sells their data, and shows ads to them, because they don't
| have the money for a product they own (see: television
| market).
| renewiltord wrote:
| That is right. Being shown a targeted advertisement is
| exactly the same as being forced to pick cotton in the
| fields by day under threat of life and limb. As a matter of
| fact, the real question is whether the slaves suffered even
| a fraction as much as I did browsing Instagram.
|
| An argument could be made that even thinking about the
| slave trade is inconsiderate when billions are shown ads on
| Facebook properties today.
| white_dragon88 wrote:
| Firstly what kind of monitor is that? Wtf?
|
| Also the cliche of it's not the product, you are is cute but
| played out. If you're getting your bang for buck on it as a
| consumer (and I know I am), then moral arguments are useless.
| As with all things the market makes the ultimate decisions,
| not the individual.
| a_t48 wrote:
| https://rog.asus.com/us/monitors/32-to-34-inches/rog-
| swift-p...
|
| I have one of these - a little overpriced but looks
| absolutely amazing.
| throwawaynay wrote:
| >If you're getting your bang for buck on it as a consumer
| (and I know I am), then moral arguments are useless. As
| with all things the market makes the ultimate decisions,
| not the individual.
|
| You could use the same train of thought for Soylent Green.
| tasha0663 wrote:
| > the cliche of it's not the product, you are is cute but
| played out
|
| Cute, cliche, and played out? If you dismiss it in three
| different ways are you magically correct?
|
| It might be a losing battle in the face on increasing
| complacency and bad incentives, but it's not over no matter
| how many different ways you want to dismiss it.
| nsxwolf wrote:
| I haven't spent $2000 but I spent $1500 for a 23" Apple
| Cinema Display in 2004 (adjust that for inflation!) and
| about that much for my current 3840x1600 ultrawide Acer.
| nonplus wrote:
| Yeah the Samsung G9 was a silly amount of money on release,
| and I bought one.
| slg wrote:
| This is all true, but it also doesn't mean the that the current
| high price was the only possible approach. I see decisions made
| in the design that don't look great from cost-benefit
| standpoint. For example, this is being marketed mainly as a
| productivity tool. Wireless is certainly important for gaming
| when you are moving around in your environment, but people
| using this are primarily going to be in a stationary position
| either sitting or lying down. Why do they need the computer in
| the headset, which makes upgrading impossible, and for it to
| function completely wirelessly?
|
| It seems like prioritizing the integrated computer and the
| untethered experience increases the cost for little benefit.
| This is especially true considering this thing likely won't
| have great battery life so operating completely wirelessly
| won't be possible for extended periods of time anyway. What
| would this device cost if the primary design objective was to
| create an open wired headset and the software to accompany it?
| Whatever that is, it would be a more attractive value
| proposition for me personally and therefore likely for other
| customers too.
| pharke wrote:
| I think the freedom of an untethered headset is a big selling
| feature, at least for people who have used both tethered and
| untethered VR headsets. Since the Simula has full color
| passthrough, it should be easy to get up and make a cup of
| coffee while still wearing the headset. This is a big deal,
| taking a headset off and putting it back on again is annoying
| and focus breaking. It adds inertia that isn't there when
| using a non-wearable device. Minimizing the number of times
| you have to do that in a day is a win.
|
| Untethered also allows you to be much more active, you can
| change seats or switch to standing as easily as if you were
| just holding a phone or tablet. It'd be nice to stretch my
| legs while I catch up on email or check a dashboard or flop
| on the couch while I watch a video or read an article.
|
| If the battery life isn't great, you only need to be plugged
| in while your sitting at your desk and can easily unplug the
| cable when you want to get up. Hopefully they made the port
| easy to find while wearing the headset.
| kanetw wrote:
| It doesn't make upgrading impossible. The compute pack is
| detachable, replacable, and can even function independently.
|
| The benefit is pretty crucial: friction. If you have a
| tethered VR headset, the amount of work you need to do to set
| it up is insane. Especially with lower-level software like
| Simula.
| slg wrote:
| >It doesn't make upgrading impossible. The compute pack
| is... replacable
|
| It is only replaceable and upgradable if this company sells
| these compute modules separately. There is no discussion I
| saw on that website that they are committing to do this and
| there is no guarantee they will be around to still sell you
| one in the future. Even if they do, you are locked into
| their ecosystem.
|
| >The benefit is pretty crucial: friction. If you have a
| tethered VR headset, the amount of work you need to do to
| set it up is insane.
|
| I have never used a VR device on Linux and maybe the work
| involved there would be truly "insane", but I have used a
| few on Windows and they are basically completely plug and
| play after you install the software. Although even with the
| work involved, this seems to be an enthusiast device aimed
| at techies. If these customers are looking for a
| frictionless experience, they probably wouldn't be daily
| driving a Linux machine in the first place.
| kanetw wrote:
| The modules are available from Intel. You're locked into
| some of our custom components, true. But this is miles
| better than anything else on the market.
|
| The friction is both what we experienced as part of
| adoption and in my personal experience. Actual personal
| experiences may vary, of course.
| slg wrote:
| >The modules are available from Intel. You're locked into
| some of our custom components, true. But this is miles
| better than anything else on the market.
|
| I didn't realize you were involved in this company until
| I read your other comments. It is unclear what "You're
| locked into some of our custom components" means. Can a
| average techie, maybe someone who is comfortable opening
| their laptop to add RAM or new storage but wouldn't be
| comfortable making any other hardware changes, upgrade
| this with off the shelf parts? If the answer is yes, that
| should be in your marketing material. If the answer is no
| and you can't commit to selling these custom modules,
| then I stick to my original point.
| kanetw wrote:
| I'm the other co-founder.
|
| Yes, about as easy as opening a laptop. Unscrew some
| screws, lift a cover, install a new M.2 SSD or whatever.
| This is a picture of the "standard" assembly:
| https://i.kane.cx/NFIpf4 -- compute element slots into a
| connector, and there's the standard M.2 slot etc. Ours
| won't be too different, just a different form
| factor/connectors/additional features.
|
| We're committing to selling all custom parts for at least
| a few years, but I can't give a hard number on how long.
| I'd say 4 years for sure.
| slg wrote:
| That is great. This should be stated on your website and
| not deep in the comments of a HN thread.
| kanetw wrote:
| I'll relay it to George. Thanks for the feedback, this
| kind of thing is always what falls through the cracks
| when you write sales copy.
| nsb1 wrote:
| I don't have a problem with the price - I have a problem with
| being sure what I'd be getting for that money. If it was
| guaranteed to live up to the claims that are being made then
| it's in the ballpark of a good laptop, which I have no problem
| dropping all sorts of money on. This device has several
| potential problems though, that can render it completely
| unusable rather than a laptop that mostly works fine except for
| a nit or two: - If it's too heavy/uncomfortable, you can't use
| it for long enough to warrant switching your compute medium to
| VR - If the battery doesn't last long enough, then you're
| tethered to a wall outlet. - If the display has distortion or
| artifacts, the eyestrain may render it unusable over time.
|
| Some of which can be addressed by being able to try before you
| buy, and the rest will come out in the product reviews....but
| right now there are no product reviews, and signing up for a
| preorder at this price is taking a lot on faith.
|
| I wish this team all the success in the world, but I'll
| probably wait for V2.
| kanetw wrote:
| Yeah, unfortunately that's the annoying thing with preorder
| products. A fully integrated unit that would be
| representative of a final device will take a while for sure.
| My timeline is roughly 2 months for a reviewable VR-only
| unit, another 1-2 for VR+AR, and then integrate the compute
| pack.
| riskable wrote:
| As someone who's used a Quest 2 for hours and hours with a
| heavy 3rd party head strap, over-the-ear headphones, and a
| battery pack strapped to my head I wouldn't worry about the
| weight too much. Even playing intense games where I had to
| move my head a lot it was never my neck/back that hurt--it
| was always _my arms_ , haha.
|
| That's really going to be the new RSI waiting to happen:
| Moving your hands in the air constantly. Try this: Pretend
| you're scrolling a really long web page a little bit at a
| time by holding your hand in the air (in front of your face)
| and doing a pinch with your fingers like you're grabbing
| something, lifting it up, then dropping it again. Do this
| motion very slowly (like you're reading) for like 10 minutes
| straight, over and over again. Now do the same thing,
| pretending you're looking up at a VR "window" or down at one.
| How do you think your arms will do after existing in this VR
| environment for hours at a time? :D
|
| As long as we can scroll/navigate with the keyboard
| everything should be good though
| WesSouza wrote:
| It's horrible. It's beautiful. I would never use it. I want one.
| seltzered_ wrote:
| In addition to what was linked by the OP, Simula One VR was
| discussed 10 days ago here:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30318094
|
| > "with a VR computer you can change positions, sit up, lean
| back, stand, lie down, or even walk while you compute."
|
| You don't necessarily need a VR computer for this. I've created a
| subreddit to explore this topic:
| https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMobileComputers/
| jayd16 wrote:
| I'd be interested to see some real hand tracking and passthrough.
| How warped is the passthrough video and what is the hand tracking
| FOV? In my experience a lot of these headsets forget I'll want to
| interact with things not directly in the center of the screen.
|
| Text comparison image is kind of annoying. More zoomed in and
| more favorable angle for the good side. Why isn't this a pixel
| perfect comparison?
| CarVac wrote:
| I'm unlikely to buy but I'm curious how well this could work for
| photo editing on the go, where the ability to reject outside
| light puts it potentially above laptops in practical use.
| dorfsmay wrote:
| I love the idea to be able to work in many places while keeping a
| good posture!
|
| On the pictures, it looks like there is no pointing device. Is
| the pointing done by eye tracking? How do you click on things?
| How do you deal with "focus follow mouse"? For example I often
| look at one window while typing in another.
| georgewsinger wrote:
| Yes, Simula allows for you to retain full control of window
| management with only a keyboard; mouse and hand gestures are
| not necessarily needed, though will be supported also.
|
| In order to do this, we make use forward eye gaze, which you
| can use to move mouse cursors (and also to move windows
| around). Customizable keyboard shortcuts can be configured to
| resize/shrink/expand/zoom in/zoom out/push in/push away
| windows. Default keyboard shortcuts are explained in our GitHub
| repo (https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula).
|
| As a demonstration, here's an old demo of me using eye gaze to
| manipulate windows: https://youtu.be/rm72Qmi8Bik
|
| RE "focus follow mouse", Simula is currently set so that the
| "actively gazed at window" is the one that receives all inputs.
| We have found this to be pretty resilient almost all use cases,
| but as you said there are scenarios where you want to lock
| focus on a window while typing on another. We should add a
| keyboard shortcut to do this (would be very easy to implement).
|
| Thanks for your interest BTW. The posture/freedom of movement
| part is one of my favorite things about VR computing. I love to
| work on things while "supine".[1] It allows you to get way more
| time spent on a task without the constraint of
| physical/postural fatigue limiting you.
|
| [1] As demonstrated in this cool blog series I found:
| https://mgsloan.com/posts/supine-computing/
| riskable wrote:
| I don't know how it works with their headset but with the Quest
| 2 hand tracking (which is handled via four cheap IR cameras)
| you just make a pinch motion with your fingers to "click" or
| click-and-drag: https://support.oculus.com/articles/headsets-
| and-accessories...
|
| I assume that doing a right-click would be a pinch-and-hold
| sort of situation or maybe you could just use the left hand for
| that sort of thing.
| RodgerTheGreat wrote:
| Is it possible to get prescription lens inserts? This would make
| a massive improvement for usability and comfort of anyone who
| wears glasses.
| nonplus wrote:
| I'm not on the team but yes, they will take lens inserts; there
| has been some discussion on this on discord.
|
| https://discord.com/channels/603723949586644997/603723949586...
| kanetw wrote:
| Yes:
|
| 1. We have up to 17mm of space for glasses for casual use
|
| 2. We're going to be compatible with prescription lens inserts
| out of the box, e.g. Reloptix.
|
| 3. It's possible that we'll include diopter adjustment as well
| RodgerTheGreat wrote:
| That's great news! Is the idea that the headset is physically
| compatible with the shape of lens inserts for some existing
| mainstream headset, or will you be partnering with Reloptix
| and other vendors?
|
| It would be very helpful to have this information somewhere
| prominently in your marketing materials.
| kanetw wrote:
| Talking with Reloptix right now about the details. We
| definitely need to put it more prominently somewhere (god,
| marketing is hard)
| fuzzy2 wrote:
| Is it really comfortable to wear for extended periods of time?
| I'm a little behind on VR tech. I have an HTC Vive (1st gen),
| which has a third strap to support the weight. Does it really
| work okay without that? I would imagine the combined weight of
| the computer and the headset to be substantially higher than my
| HTC Vive. It has to be supported by something - which hopefully
| isn't my nose or ears!
|
| (Also, what _is_ the weight?)
|
| ---
|
| Kudos for using Shopify without a shit-ton of third-party stuff I
| regularly see on other shops!
| kanetw wrote:
| We might end up adding a third strap. More info on that in the
| upcoming 2-3 months.
|
| Weight is still being worked on. Our target is 800g, but that
| might change depending on what tradeoffs we want to make or
| what comfort testing tells us.
| fuzzy2 wrote:
| Thanks for the info!
| kanetw wrote:
| Also, I generally try to limit third party stuff because it's
| just super annoying. Never mind that I use uMatrix and having
| to enable 20 different hosts makes me cranky.
|
| About the only third party thing we have is an invoicing app I
| installed temporarily.
| fmos wrote:
| Interesting. Thanks for the "Show"!
|
| I'm still pretty new to VR and experimenting with a Quest 2 I
| recently bought out of curiosity really (the tiny price helps; as
| I'm not planning any extensive/real use, I don't feel like being
| very valuable product myself).
|
| Anyway, you might want to consider adding your device to the
| Comparison on Wikipedia? [0]
|
| [0]
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_virtual_reality_...
| devwastaken wrote:
| I think this is really cool, however I view VR headsets like
| monitors. I want them light, cool, and relocatable. I would
| imagine it would be cheaper to have this as two units. The
| headset, and "the box". The box does all the fun stuff and sends
| it wirelessly to the headset. Use a hardware
| compressor/decompress and a wifi 6e chip.
|
| Really that's all I want, a headset that is comfy, stays cool,
| great lenses, and can be streamed to. My quest 2 can do this but
| it is not comfy, cool, and has god ray problems.
| vbuterin wrote:
| Isn't the reason why this is typically not done that VR giving
| a good experience is very low-latency-dependent, and it's very
| hard to make wireless connections have an ultra-low latency?
| kanetw wrote:
| Yeah, pretty much. I think you can mitigate it a bit with
| clever tricks, but it's a lot of extra effort we'd rather not
| deal with this early on.
|
| Also, bandwidth is the big blocker. Compression adds latency
| and reduces quality, and the amount of data we're pushing is
| really high (27Gbps uncompressed)
| azinman2 wrote:
| I know this is Linux oriented, but if I use it in tethered mode,
| could I hook it up to my MBP?
| kanetw wrote:
| Maybe? Do other headsets work on the MBP? There's nothing
| blocking it, but it's not primary compatibility target. That
| being said, everything will be open source, so it shouldn't be
| too difficult to add it in if we don't have the resources for
| it.
| d--b wrote:
| The gif with the guy keeping the device on while being handed his
| coffee made me cringe. AR mode why not, but not at the expense of
| actual human interactions!
| anentropic wrote:
| That gif is crying out to become a meme...
| kanetw wrote:
| We were discussing a way to flip up the headset a while ago.
| I'm not sure if we have the resources to put it in right now,
| but it would be cool.
| losvedir wrote:
| Just gotta put googly eyes on the front.
| d--b wrote:
| I think you should change it with someone who receives a text
| message for 2FA or something like that.
| psanford wrote:
| Everything about that gif is a lie. There is no way you will be
| able to drink comfortably from a coffee cup with that headset
| on (just like its not comfortable to do so with an oculus). I
| like how the clip cuts just at the point where he would bang
| the cup against the headset.
|
| But really its the lack of disdain on all the other people's
| faces that makes it painfully unrealistic.
| bee_rider wrote:
| It is possible to drink in VR, you just have to get the
| motion right. But it is something I'd do with a beer rather
| than a hot coffee.
| blah_humbug wrote:
| >From Iron Man to The Minority Report, our Sci-Fi has been
| promising us for decades a future of always-on spatial computing
| and omnipresent screens. This is the Future we deserve.
|
| Assuming that this is serious and not parody, then you have a
| very different vision of a utopian future than I do.
| georgewsinger wrote:
| It's serious (not parody), though I can understand in
| retrospect why that might be off-putting, and I should probably
| word the paragraph better. I sometimes watch Sci-Fi movies and
| focus too much on the technology (forgetting that the entire
| plot covers some terrible dystopian theme, lol).
|
| I'm personally a fan of "Definite Optimism" views of the
| future.[1] Western culture used to portray technology really
| positively in Sci-Fi dramas (e.g. Star Trek), and then sometime
| around the 1970s, our culture flipped to portraying technology
| mostly under a dystopian point of view.
|
| [1] https://simulavr.com/blog/vr-and-definite-optimism/
| blah_humbug wrote:
| Sorry, I don't understand how strapping some screens very
| close to our eyes will bring us back to the halcyon days of
| pre-1970 (which were absolutely dominated by the discovery of
| cheap energy in the form of oil and coal, and in the case of
| the US, the technological boost of fighting a war without the
| downsides of it being on its own soil). It sounds like what
| you are pining for is the time when we reaped maximal
| benefits of the Industrial Revolution but before we realised
| the repercussions.
| normie3000 wrote:
| It sounds more like he's pining for futuristic UIs.
| Mockapapella wrote:
| Super excited about this. Ordered one seconds after the shop went
| up. Being able to have greater than desktop levels of screen
| space with the same mobility as a laptop is such an attractive
| feature that I'm really looking forward to taking advantage of.
| GordonS wrote:
| This looks amazing, but I've always been put off VR by the
| bulkiness of the headset - I've got to wonder how it can be worn
| for long periods, and what that might do to my neck. Plus there's
| a risk of nausea and headaches, which would be pretty shitty if I
| dropped a couple of grand on a headset!
|
| Anyway, how realistic is it for VR headsets to be miniaturised,
| so they more resemble a pair of glasses? Or does physics mean
| that will never be possible?
| kanetw wrote:
| You can go a fair bit smaller, but the primary size driver is
| the optics. Pancake lenses, which combine refraction with
| reflection, allow the depth to be much smaller while having
| similar optical power. However they cause image artifacts and
| have really poor light transmission, so it takes a good amount
| of R&D to get them good enough. A traditional refractive
| system, especially for a high-fidelity device, is a better
| choice for now than optimizing for size. That can come later.
| sleight42 wrote:
| In the before-times, this would've been life-altering for devs
| who would frequently travel by plane.
|
| Pre-pandemic, remember computering in economy class? You were
| lucky if you could see your laptop screen! With this gadget, your
| screen is all around you and your keyboard can literally be on
| your lap.
| georgewsinger wrote:
| Agreed =]
|
| Another benefit of VRCs is that they allow you to work more
| privately, which is also useful in planes. I don't know if I'm
| just weird, but I've always found it unnerving to work on a
| laptop in economy class where people can just glance over at my
| screen. (Even if I'm not even working on anything that private
| or sensitive). VRCs mean nobody can see what you're working on
| except you.
| drcode wrote:
| I love that they fully embrace the "sitting at the coffee shop
| with my VR headset" aesthetic. I'm totally ready to support this
| vision and preorder one and let my freak flag fly at my local
| coffee shop!
| bee_rider wrote:
| Luckily it is a Linux device, we're the sort of weirdos who'd
| do such a thing.
|
| In 3 years or so, this will be normalized, right? People will
| want to wear their apple VR things, to coffee shops.
| Damogran6 wrote:
| It'll be normalized when The Simpsons makes fun of it.
| reaperducer wrote:
| _I love that they fully embrace the "sitting at the coffee shop
| with my VR headset" aesthetic. I'm totally ready to support
| this vision and preorder one and let my freak flag fly at my
| local coffee shop!_
|
| To each, his own.
|
| To me, the videos of the guy sitting in the park surrounded by
| trees and birds and nature, but completely blocking them out
| with his headset is dystopian. The world is wonderful, and if I
| have to work in it, I prefer to experience it, not pretend it
| doesn't exist. I say this as someone who regularly does my work
| on a laptop at a park.
|
| Your vision of blocking out the existence of all of the fellow
| human beings at the coffee shop is, again to me, similarly
| dystopian. What's the point of even going? Why not lock
| yourself in a closet and program a pretend coffee shop to
| display in your goggles? Coffee is cheaper at home, too.
| drcode wrote:
| It has AR capabilities, so he isn't "blocking the existence
| of all fellow thing-ama-boppers": You are just choosing to
| redefine "blocking the existence" to you own ends
| gorjusborg wrote:
| They should also put a large dart board looking target on the
| headset.
| ge96 wrote:
| Yean unfortunately I would not use this thing in public, I
| think it would just get stolen. I have a $2K camera (body
| only) that I'm afraid to use in public, seems silly I know.
|
| But I think I'll try to use my Index more see if I can get
| into that idea of using VR for work.
|
| I hope they figured out the blurry edges of text when you
| don't look at it just right, maybe that's a lower resolution
| display issue. I'm interested in the concept but it's
| definitely expensive for me at the current cost/mental
| mindset.
| kanetw wrote:
| The blurry edges is both an optics and display resolution
| issue, and also potentially a fit adjustment thing.
|
| Our optics are currently in prototype production but we'll
| have the first units in a few weeks. Can post some through
| the lens shots then and check for any issues like that.
| ge96 wrote:
| > Can post some through the lens shots then and check for
| any issues like that.
|
| That sounds good. Good luck, I've subscribed to one of
| your guys YT channels to keep up.
|
| edit: ehh I've lost $2.5K on crypto already, I'll just do
| the 50% pre-order for this.
| throwoutway wrote:
| They do fully embrace it! I almost laughed at the comment:
|
| > It can sometimes just feel weird working on sensitive or
| private things out in the open.
|
| ... all while the GIF next to it seems to have people glaring
| at the weird person with the VR headset on. Clever marketing
| hidden way down there. But who knows, maybe this is the future
| if Zuck throws billions at it.
| gorjusborg wrote:
| I also love the fact that the guy can't drink his coffee
| because it clashes with the headset. They should have had the
| actor order a drink with a straw.
| drcode wrote:
| I think he could (barely) drink it without a straw
| sitzkrieg wrote:
| sounds impressive. anyone complaining about price has clearly
| never looked at pimax headsets lol
| fire wrote:
| Oh hell yeah! I can't afford it, but I would _love_ to be able to
| read text and just generally program within VR itself ( review
| units wink wink ).
|
| I saw mention of Nix - what does steam / proton compatibility
| look like there?
|
| Is there more info available on the compute unit's load profile
| during typical usage? Any idea whether it would be able to handle
| running a windows VM with hwaccel at the same time? With a Xe gpu
| it won't be playing games, but if the performance isn't vomit-
| inducing it could be a really interesting cross platform
| development... platform!
|
| Have y'all seen VR-OS[1] or talked to Matthaeus[2] about bringing
| some of its user experience over? Your projects look like a match
| made in heaven to my eyes.
|
| I see the founder's edition is listed as using a "LED Matrix
| Display" - what does the standard edition use? Is this OLED vs
| MiniLED?
|
| Is hand tracking camera based? How intensive is that on the
| system? Did other solutions like LIDAR or mini radar[3] present
| issues?
|
| I'm so freaking excited to see how this comes along, and I hope
| y'all last for a very, very long time.
|
| 1: https://youtube.com/c/MatthaeusKrenn
|
| 2: https://twitter.com/matthaeus
|
| 3: https://www.infineon.com/cms/en/product/sensor/radar-
| sensors...
| kanetw wrote:
| The hand tracking is Ultraleap's assuming they actually deliver
| the Linux software at some point in the next few months. We're
| considering backups like using mmWave RADAR. It shouldn't be
| too intensive (at least not noticeable so far), but I'll double
| check.
|
| The LED matrix display is for the outside. In both the
| founders' and regular, the internal display are Sharp 2448x2448
| LCDs.
|
| The regular edition will have a LED matrix display only if we
| sell enough units, basically.
|
| I think I heard about VR-OS but haven't looked deeper; focused
| on the HW right now.
|
| Steam works on Nix afaik (although George is the main Nix
| user); a Windows VM... should work?
| fire wrote:
| Ahhh, nice! What's the purpose/utility of the matrix display?
| Can it be used as a light source? Or maybe a point grid
| display for pixel art style faces / messages?
|
| > I think I heard about VR-OS but haven't looked deeper;
| focused on the HW right now.
|
| That's actually precisely why I brought it up :D
|
| > a Windows VM... should work?
|
| Ah sorry, I edited my message above to be clearer as far as
| what I was actually asking ( load profiles and such ). I got
| so excited that I started brain dumping without a lot of
| context.
| kanetw wrote:
| Communicating with the outside world, basically. DND signs,
| pixel-y eyes, etc.
| fire wrote:
| That's hilarious and I love it. Is the front modular as
| well? I could see a cool alternative to hack together
| being an e-ink display
| yewenjie wrote:
| I have been keeping an eye on SimulaOS for sometime and I am glad
| that they finally have a real hardware!
| 71a54xd wrote:
| If this is the future of work and productivity - I'm ready to opt
| out.
| nbzso wrote:
| I have a problem with the blue light from the screens. Pushing
| this light source close to my eyes is utter madness.
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6288536/
| moron4hire wrote:
| The risk of blue light from computer screens has been vastly,
| vastly overstated.
| hdevarajan wrote:
| Might you have references ?
| austinthetaco wrote:
| Looks like a very interesting prospect for a laptop replacement.
| One small question I haven't seen answered here is if you can
| plug in an external display, or how you plan to handle web
| conferences. Most orgs I've worked for like you to have a webcam
| on, and see others. I'm not sure how that would practically work
| if they see a webcam of someone with their headset on, would make
| for a pretty akward meeting.
| zmmmmm wrote:
| Comparable services like ImmersedVR have a virtual webcam that
| projects a picture of you as an avatar, including moving your
| mouth when speaking etc. It's pretty out there and I suspect I
| would be too worried about looking hiliarously silly while
| saying something serious to ever use it in earnest. But that is
| the kind of direction things are going, with some offerings now
| actually mapping a texture map of your face onto the avatar and
| animating that.
| kanetw wrote:
| We have several external DP ports via USB-C. Web conferences...
| hm. Difficult to have some form of webcam with the headset on,
| but maybe there's a good way we'll discover down the line.
| lallysingh wrote:
| This looks like a decent deal looking deeper into it.
|
| Things that weren't obvious on first pass:
|
| (1) The VR specs are much higher than consumer level. I suspect
| this is what makes it reasonable to read text on it. The
| comparison headset is this: https://varjo.com/products/aero/
| (They named it, but didn't google it)
|
| (2) They said "VR Computer" but don't define the term. They mean
| that it's a full PC with a headset instead of a regular display.
| Oddly they don't include a mouse or keyboard.
|
| My feedback for Simula one:
|
| (0) The value proposition here is (a) the included equipment and
| (b) the software. They together have to justify the price at some
| level.
|
| (1) You have to really push the point that this is a full
| computer, not another headset. I suggest you include a
| keyboard/mouse, and include it in the pictures with the headset
| (the pictures with just the headset, not the ones with the
| people). Perhaps a keyboard with a trackpad.
|
| (2) Show that the headset is substantially higher-spec than the
| consumer ones. Show a comparison chart.
|
| (3) Dump the AR coffee shop video. Show AR in a home office.
| Don't assume/require that your customers are that VR gun-ho.
|
| (4) Show more than a bunch of shells in the VR screenshots. I can
| alt-tab as fast as I can move my head, with less work. If this is
| your underlying value proposition, it sucks. I'm sorry. If you
| have something more interesting, like a combined VR/app
| environment, then it can work.
|
| (4.1) Is there some useful interactions between 3D visualization
| and high-quality small-text rendering? If you have good VR/3D
| developer stories, then this can work.
|
| (5) Simula One - is it Ubuntu with a 3d window manager and custom
| rendering stack? Does it do anything else? Does it just make a
| (claustrophobic) shell of windows around the user in VR?
|
| (5.1) Are there any integrations with anything? Like
| https://blog.jupyter.org/ipygany-jupyter-into-the-third-dime...
| ipygany?
|
| (5.2) What do you expect people to do with it? Is
| drcode wrote:
| The coffee shop video is the sole reason I purchased it. Not
| that I'd really ever use it that way, but I want to live in a
| future where I could in principle do so without shame LOL
| lallysingh wrote:
| Actually I'd like to see AR mode when outdoors!
| riskable wrote:
| Can't use these headsets outdoors because the sun will
| destroy the screens (powerful magnifying lens aiming right
| at the screen). In fact, you have to be careful indoors as
| well.
|
| These devices need a simple shutter that covers the
| displays automatically when it's not pressed against your
| face. This would solve the problem.
| kanetw wrote:
| You shouldn't take it off outdoors with the lenses
| pointing at the sun, no. Ambient light will be fine.
|
| Also don't stare at the sun with the cameras. Although if
| you do, they'll be replaceable.
| riskable wrote:
| The natural motion for removing any VR headset is to lift
| it off your face and then hold it via the head strap
| which points the display directly upwards. Also, when
| placing the headset down for charging it's also natural
| to hang it up on a hook of some sort (via the head strap)
| which also has the side effect of pointing the lenses
| upwards. If someone does this near a window the sun can
| destroy it in no time.
| kanetw wrote:
| Huh. That's not how I take them off, but I'm also mindful
| about optics damage.
|
| Some kind of shutter is a bit hard to do due to space
| constraints, but I'll see what can be done.
| oarsinsync wrote:
| +1 to this. Every time I take my vr headset off, I hold
| it by the back of the headband until I put it down
| somewhere.
| octopoc wrote:
| > they'll be replaceable
|
| Nice! Are other parts of the device repairable /
| replaceable as well?
| kanetw wrote:
| Basically everything is modular. It's a huge design boon
| to be able to split things up and it comes naturally with
| reparability and to some extent upgradability.
|
| About the only thing I would be careful about replacing
| (but we'll still be offering) is the optical assembly, as
| dust will be pretty annoying if it gets in. We're
| planning a clean room just to handle the dust-sensitive
| parts of our equipment (image sensors, displays/optics,
| etc)
| georgewsinger wrote:
| Upvoted for the excellent feedback.
|
| 1. We'll do a better job defining the term "VR Computer" in our
| sales page.
|
| 2. We'll consider adding a keyboard/mouse as optional add-ons.
| We have thought about including a "keyboard apron" as an item
| add-on that is actually differentiated from other keyboards,
| and one that would be particularly useful for VR computing
| (with the added freedom of movement).[1] Would something like
| this interest you? Note that we'd use a more accessible
| keyboard than the 40% "Corne keyboard" one shown in the photo.
|
| 3. We're going to add some of our comparison charts showcasting
| the Simula One versus other products/prices. They were included
| in a recent blog post[2], but aren't featured on our shop.
| Looks like they would be helpful there as well.
|
| 4. We're definitely interested in developing "3D office apps"
| (or something like a Linux ecosystem for them), but decided
| that the first step was to get people using our 2D VR app
| environment first.
|
| 5. At a high level, SimulaOS is going to be NixOS + our VR
| window manager. The current features of this window manager are
| outlined here: https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula. We plan to
| add to these features over time (especially including: VR app
| tiling/window grouping and hand interactions). This should be
| better showcased in our shop though for sure. Thanks for
| flagging this.
|
| [1]
| https://www.wolframcloud.com/obj/george.w.singer/business/pn...
|
| [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29923197
| jvanderbot wrote:
| I just want to comment that, my interest in a VR headset is
| precisely for standard terminal-based editing, except that
| now the focal point is at infinity and my eyes can relax
| better. That might be an underappreciated draw.
|
| Consider seeing if that holds and including that as a use
| case. You'd have +1 consumers here and I cannot be alone.
| EvanAnderson wrote:
| I have the opposite opinion as the parent post re:
| keyboard/mouse. If I'm buying a piece of kit like this I have
| very strong opinions already re: my input devices. Unless you
| can make good margin on the keyboard/mouse option I think
| you're just adding friction and expense to your internal
| processes to support it.
|
| As an aside: I've tried to learn a chording keyboard in the
| past without much success. In a desktop setting a chording
| keyboard never increased my productivity enough to make it
| worth the learning curve. A chording keyboard with this
| platform would be a much more positive value proposition for
| me.
| lallysingh wrote:
| Frankly the keyboard included doesn't matter. Include it as
| an optional add-on, but _put_it_in_the_picture_. So it
| looks like a complete system, not just a headset.
| akavel wrote:
| I'm also very interested in chording keyboards, though
| never tried one yet - but planning to try building a
| Chordite DIY prototype Some Day. Also thus interested in
| any AR / video passthrough features (and their speed), esp.
| from an angle of whether the VR set would be usable e.g.
| while walking...?
| Filligree wrote:
| > 2. We'll consider adding a keyboard/mouse as optional add-
| ons. We have thought about including a "keyboard apron" as an
| item add-on that is actually differentiated from other
| keyboards, and one that would be particularly useful for VR
| computing (with the added freedom of movement).[1] Would
| something like this interest you? Note that we'd use a more
| accessible keyboard than the 40% "Corne keyboard" one shown
| in the photo.
|
| I can't use a computer without having a keyboard, and I can't
| use a keyboard without being able to see it.
|
| If you can solve both of those, then I'll seriously consider
| acquiring one. Perhaps not version one, but version two for
| sure. Something closer to a traditional keyboard would suit
| me better, however; I'm not likely to be walking around while
| wearing this.
| zeeb wrote:
| SimulaVR has a "webcam view" that allows you to see your
| mouse and keyboard through passthrough video:
|
| https://github.com/SimulaVR/Simula#mouse--keyboard-view
| kanetw wrote:
| Yep, and with our headset we'll have full background
| replacement. We've tested it internally with two off the
| shelf cameras but it's not public yet.
| [deleted]
| mtsr wrote:
| Many of the target users are probably perfect touch
| typists.
|
| But according to the product comparison the SimulaVR also
| has handtracking. I wonder if it'd be possible to track
| hands and keyboard accurately enough for those who are not
| perfect touch typists.
| moron4hire wrote:
| The Quest 2 can do it with two specific models of
| keyboards (Logitech K830 and more recently Apple Magic
| Keyboard), so it should't be outside of the realm
| possibility.
| ansible wrote:
| > * Is there some useful interactions between 3D visualization
| and high-quality small-text rendering? If you have good VR/3D
| developer stories, then this can work.*
|
| Yes, I want to see a CAD application where the user is looking
| at a complex CAD model in 3D, with labeled parts and
| everything, and usefully interacting with it. Typing commands,
| grabbing and turning the model, etc.
| kanetw wrote:
| That would be so, so cool. I don't see this happening for a
| while unless a CAD vendor works with us but definitely where
| I see this tech.
| Stephen304 wrote:
| It might be lower hanging fruit to start with something
| like a VR renderer for openscad - it would be amazing to be
| able to type openscad code into a floating window and see a
| live updating floating render of the object I am building
| next to that. I suppose the bounding box of the output
| could be considered a 3D vr window of sorts.
| webmaven wrote:
| How about 3D modeling with something like Blender?
|
| BTW, the key to making stuff like that work _well_ isn 't
| just the UI affordances, but latency. Head tracking, room
| tracking, video passthrough for AR, all highly sensitive to
| latency. You can see the effect even in the GIFs on your
| landing page: in the AR mode the floating windows slightly
| lag the external view when the user moves their head.
|
| Latency is what makes many people nauseous (ie.
| Cybersickness), but as far as I know no one actually
| benchmarks it for VR or AR headsets or for VR games, and
| headset hardware makers keep chasing higher resolutions
| (and secondarily framerate). Everyone is familiar with
| resolution vs. framerate vs. scene complexity (eg. "polygon
| counts") tradeoffs, but latency figures in as well and no
| one makes the effort to benchmark it (and let's face it,
| it's pretty hard, even in a research context) despite the
| huge impact it has on consumer acceptance. It's the
| elephant in the room everyone ignores except to blame
| someone else (software people blame the hardware, hardware
| folks blame the software, etc.).
|
| Now, you're trying to make this a general productivity
| environment, so resolution is more important than usual to
| be able to read text without eyestrain, but for immersive
| gaming the available hardware has been more than good
| enough resolution wise for at least two Moore's Law cycles,
| possibly as many as five. The same can't be said for
| latency.
|
| And there are much better uses of the GPU than just pumping
| out more pixels and complexity, particularly for AR use
| cases: object detection and tracking, pose estimation,
| object masking and removal/replacement, etc., and all of
| those are even more sensitive to latency than resolution
| compared to VR.
| kanetw wrote:
| We do have a lot of considerations for latency. Early
| footage is well, early.
|
| Head/room tracking is being worked on, but I'll keep
| people updated with results.
|
| AR latency... we're basically just brute forcing it. >90
| FPS cameras, dump the data uncompressed via PCIe Gen3 x4
| onto the compute pack, display it. Still working on the
| hardware verification but it should be doable within a
| frame assuming there isn't a hidden bottleneck somewhere.
| lallysingh wrote:
| The Blender / FreeCAD communities might bite.
| ge96 wrote:
| Was thinking what GitHub does to preview STLs. I'm
| assuming WebGL with glTF exported... Meaning am
| ElectronJS app in transparent mode code render a 3D thing
| like a part to be 3D printed.
| cookingmyserver wrote:
| I would highly discourage including a keyboard or mouse. If you
| are already spending $2700 on a VR computer I suspect you
| already have a keyboard or mouse you prefer or want to invest
| in a setup of your choice. No point in creating eWaste to drive
| home the point that this is a computer. And to that point you
| say that they need to emphasize that it is a computer and not
| just another headset (to the point of saying included a
| keyboard and mouse), but then bring up their use of terminal
| windows in their marketing (I agree though they should show
| other things as you suggested)?
|
| Two of your points in your comment seem to be lambasting the
| fact SimulaVR aren't advertising towards the lowest common
| denominator of people buying tech. It is a $2700 computer and
| display. Who exactly, that would ever actually purchase this
| device, would not understand it is a computer (or that it can
| come with one if you aren't doing stand alone), or not realize
| that if it can be used in a coffee shop it can be used in a
| home office?
| echelon wrote:
| > I would highly discourage including a keyboard or mouse.
|
| Counterpoint: I thought this was just another headset with
| the distinguishing feature that it could read text well, and
| I've been sitting in their Discord server for over a month.
|
| Look at Nintendo's ROB. They needed that thing to escape the
| stigma of their predecessors. Home video game consoles until
| that point sucked, so they had to market themselves as a toy
| instead so people wouldn't automatically dismiss them.
|
| But I agree with your point about waste. Maybe it's simply a
| matter of marketing.
| kanetw wrote:
| Yeah, I've been trying to find solutions with George as to
| how to highlight we're a VR computer better. Getting the
| messaging right is tricky.
| moron4hire wrote:
| A lot of PC manufacturers like Dell will show a mouse and
| keyboard in the product photos[0], but then leave an option
| at checkout to remove them from the purchase.
|
| It'd probably be good to not just show it with a mouse and
| keyboard, but to show it in a home context, not in use, put
| away for the day. How does this device fit into your life?
|
| [0] hell, IDK if they still do, I haven't bought from a major
| manufacturer in a long time.
| Symmetry wrote:
| I've got an IPD of 77 and I'm extremely grateful to see a good VR
| headset that supports how far apart my eyes are.
| kanetw wrote:
| Nice! We're big on being compatible with as many people as
| reasonably possible, as we've been annoyed by that in other
| headsets in the past.
|
| * Technically, there's another +-2mm of allowable eye center
| x/y/z movement that we've reserved for the headset moving
| around + eye relief. So in theory the maximum IPD would be
| closer to 81mm, but that puts your right on the edge of
| reaching our target picture quality.
| lallysingh wrote:
| Shop server looks down.
|
| The cost is too high for even high-paid engineers. Are these
| hand-built?
| moritonal wrote:
| The URL has www. at the start by accident.
| DIVx0 wrote:
| looks like a bad link, this works: https://shop.simulavr.com/
| pingpongrandom wrote:
| Casual project follower here: I really want to use this device
| for remoting into other machines, so I can use my work computer
| via Simula - does the native Simula OS allow for this?
| ryukafalz wrote:
| It's just Linux and runs normal Linux applications, so yes. If
| you just use e.g. a VNC client your work machine's display
| would be in one window, but if you can find remote desktop
| software that displays remote windows as local windows I'd
| imagine that would work fine too with Simula.
|
| (I seem to recall Citrix can do this, though I'm not sure if
| there are any FOSS/less enterprise-y options that do the same.)
|
| EDIT: Actually I think Xpra does this? Not sure if it'll run on
| Wayland, or if X11 apps work in Simula via XWayland. If so
| though, that might work.
| kanetw wrote:
| Xpra might be able to do it.
| downrightmike wrote:
| You can do that with any computer with pikvm and tinypilot
| https://tinypilotkvm.com/ https://pikvm.org/
| kanetw wrote:
| Sure, you can use Parsec or something, but you'll only get an
| Immersed-style "virtual desktop". Having full separate window
| transmission would be more difficult/impossible for non-Linux
| targets.
| pingpongrandom wrote:
| That's great to know - thanks!
| rileyphone wrote:
| Interesting, I don't know how I feel about replacing
| desktops/laptops with VR but it's been around 5 years since I've
| been in VR. Recently, I finished reading "Dawn of a New
| Everything" by Jaron Lanier, one of the pioneers of VR that
| brought the first commercial headset to market in the early 80s
| at VPL. In that era, the hardware wasn't nearly powerful to
| maintain any kind of fidelity (I think this was before even
| graphics cards were a thing) and the VR sets themselves cost
| ~$70000, but some of the things he mentions doing are still
| absent today.
|
| Phenotropic software, as I first encountered in [0], could be
| conceived of as maximum encapsulation in VR, where instead of
| writing code one interfaces with virtual objects, or builds
| objects to do so, etc. In the book he claims they were developing
| their software this way in the 80s, but there aren't any
| surviving examples. In any case I think it's a fascinating
| research direction. At the very least VR should lead us away from
| the teletype based interfaces we work in today.
|
| Alongside headsets, VPL was known for the Data Glove, a
| peripheral which I feel is lacking in the modern VR ecosystem.
| Using a QWERTY keyboard in VR is almost some cruel joke, and the
| modern "do it all in ML" ethos can't account for haptics. I don't
| know who, but someone is going to come up with the next great
| human interface device for VR. Perhaps it will even be tongue
| oriented, which Lanier points out is one of the most controllable
| muscles.
|
| Anyways, I'm excited for the Simula One, though it's well beyond
| my price point. We definitely need more open hardware that can be
| built on, especially if it's an all-in-one product like the
| Quest. Good luck!
|
| [0] https://www.edge.org/conversation/jaron_lanier-why-
| gordian-s...
| ge96 wrote:
| > "do it all in ML" ethos can't account for haptics
|
| Side note: Voidstar Labs on YT was able to make this glove that
| had gesture tracking, compressed the ML model and fit into a
| Teensy. So maybe a light weight set of gloves that can track a
| qwerty-based typing on any surface or midair could be something
| (without visual tracking).
| agentdrtran wrote:
| I am not ready for anything like this but it's very cool! I can't
| wait to see how it develops.
| 2fast4you wrote:
| I've been following Simula for awhile and I'm super happy to see
| the first pre-orders! You're doing some amazing work!
| daviding wrote:
| I would be tempted by this if I could try out SimulaVR first
| using my HP Reverb G2 HMD. It has great resolution, but I don't
| think there is a Linux driver that I guess would be the pre-
| requisite? I know a lot of people into VR for flight sims and
| driving, that spend $2000+ for high resolution VR experiences, so
| that demographic could be a good cross-over with this sort of
| productivity set-up - as long as they can try something like the
| window manager on their own device first?
| carapace wrote:
| I've been _blase_ about VR /AR since FB bought Oculus (well,
| since VRML et. al. flopped, really.) This is the first project
| that I've gotten excited about. Like, "shut up and take my
| money!" excited. (Folks complaining about the price: C'mon!?
| $3K-$4K for a high-end workstation is _de rigueur_ and it 's for
| work so it's tax deductible.)
| japesj wrote:
| Looks like an interesting proposition! Definitely would like more
| information about how this sits on the face of a glasses wearer
| (or how prescription lenses can anchor into the headset). Also,
| there's no details on how this is powered, but given it's use
| case outdoors, it's suggests it's battery powered. What's the
| expected battery life?
| georgewsinger wrote:
| RE power: Yes, it's battery powered. Our target is 3 hours (for
| reference: the Quest has a 2-3 hour battery life).
|
| RE glasses & lens inserts:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30442633
|
| RE ergonomics and comfort:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30442745 Possibly also of
| interest to you as well.
|
| Hope this answers your questions. We appreciate your interest.
| shahbaby wrote:
| Price is okay. As a developer anything that can help with my day
| to day work is worth investing in. This device could potentially
| replace the need for high end ergonomic chairs and standing
| desks.
| jensensbutton wrote:
| I'm curious about the typing experience. Is the Simula One able
| to bring the keyboard into the virtual environment or do you need
| to rely on touch typing? I know Meta partnered with Logitech on a
| special keyboard (K830) to try and solve for this. How are you
| thinking about it?
| [deleted]
| georgewsinger wrote:
| Our VRC supports an "AR Mode" via two front-facing RGB cameras,
| which allows you to see your keyboard. There's a snazzy
| demonstration of it our main sales video.
|
| Here's a more down to earth video of us testing it last summer
| in our compositor: https://youtu.be/6H5-mdGpKZg Note this is
| just an early test with a single fish eye lens (grainy;
| distortion not corrected). Our actual AR mode is much higher
| quality than this.
| gfodor wrote:
| Wow. How is it so cheap? Xerox Alto was way more expensive in
| inflation adjusted usd.
| bee_rider wrote:
| Well, I don't have the money now, but Q4 '22 is a while away. So
| this is the first newsletter I've ever signed up for.
|
| Any text thoughts on text inputs while mobile? I've actually got
| a split keyboard like you show in use while standing, but that
| looks a little janky. Maybe we all need to learn how to use
| twiddlers.
| georgewsinger wrote:
| Thanks for signing up for our newsletter. RE the text input
| issue: I've thought about this a lot. Options:
|
| 1. BCI. This is the holy grail. Ideally, something which could
| absorb 20,000 inputs (or approximately the number of words in
| the English language) with extremely high accuracy.
|
| 2. Voice control. Some hackers have gotten voice programming to
| work with sophisticated setups. Not ideal when you need to be
| quiet.
|
| 3. Twiddler (& twiddler-like solutions). These are cool, but
| the problem with them is that seem to cap out at ~60wpm (also
| take a while to learn how to use).
|
| 4. Attaching a keyboard to yourself. This is the most short-
| term viable option, but yeah isn't long-term ideal. (In
| particular since it limits us to ~100wpm, which isn't very
| good). It also requires you to be touch-type proficient, which
| not everyone is.
| bee_rider wrote:
| In particular, I think lots of people who think they are
| touch-proficient will be in for a surprised when they try
| using a keyboard in VR and can _never_ look at the keyboard.
| I certainly was. It turns out I mostly don 't look, but
| glance occasionally, and the glances were actually pretty
| important. Although your passthrough would certainly help
| there!
| kanetw wrote:
| Funny anecdote, we had no AR mode planned originally. Both
| me and George were completely fine without looking at the
| keyboard, so it didn't occur to us.
|
| Then our ME demo'd the software and couldn't type. We went
| "oh, fuck, what if someone needs to actually see their
| keyboard."
|
| And, well, we don't do things by half measures, so proper
| AR passthrough it is.
| JeremyNT wrote:
| I find the device intriguing, indeed, but I'm not terribly
| interested in a custom distro. Based on the fact that your
| existing code is open-source, is it safe to assume I can just
| bring my own Linux distribution?
| kanetw wrote:
| Correct, although you'll need to make sure the login/boot
| process works without an external display.
| Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
| This is great. The project is great, GNU/Linux support is great.
| Hope this flies.
|
| As for the price complaints, don't listen to them and price it as
| you see fit. It is your business, after all. If it costs too much
| for someone, they won't buy it, end pf story. Or they can get
| themselves some cheap(ish) metaware.
| frkbmb wrote:
| 3np wrote:
| Are you considering accepting payments in some form of
| cryptocurrency? Would love to preorder.
| kanetw wrote:
| Yeah, discussing this rn but it's likely.
| shafyy wrote:
| Awesome project! I'm a regular Quest 2 user, and also use it for
| work sometimes. For me, the biggest drawback of the Quest 2 is
| that it gets uncomfortable after a while. How do you address the
| ergonomics problem? Compared to a Quest 2, is it more
| comfortable?
|
| What about collaboration? Is there something like shared
| workspaces planned? Or does it support a virtual cam?
|
| When do you plan to ship it (maybe I missed it on your website?)
| moron4hire wrote:
| BTW, I've found the BOBO VR M2 replacement strap for the Quest
| 2 to be a godsend for comfort. Just wish it had integrated
| headphones.
| georgewsinger wrote:
| We are aiming for a small batch of early units to ship in Q4
| '22 (prioritizing Founders Edition units and early buyers). We
| aim to ship the bulk of our headsets in Q1 '23.
|
| RE ergonomics and comfort: our headset is shooting for a split
| weight distribution between the front and the year, with good
| thermal management.
|
| - Most of the components in the front of our headset are low-
| power, which helps against heat.
|
| - Our detachable compute unit is in the back of the headset,
| with airflow going away from your head, so heat there shouldn't
| be too noticeable. (Contrast with the Quest, which, e.g. has
| everything in the front of the headset).
|
| - We are looking into active cooling for the front of our
| headset regardless, in order to sustain long sessions and
| prevent facial sweat due to low circulation.
| shafyy wrote:
| Thanks! Sounds great. I hope you'll be able to get enough
| presales.
| tomComb wrote:
| That sounds good, particularly the "split weight
| distribution" but never-the-less I'm concerned about the
| weight of your unit.
|
| I've seen designs that split off the main battery pack for
| added flexibility and weight management. The Vive Flow has
| other issues that will probably hold it back, but the way
| they handle the battery is great.
| boredumb wrote:
| As terrified as I am of VR headsets taking over society, this is
| cool.
|
| One of my most immediate and less paranoid concerns that people
| with current VR sets probably know, does looking around like that
| make your neck/back/shoulders ache at any point? Also is AR mode
| nauseating after a few hours?
| kanetw wrote:
| AR mode is tricky, and it's one of the things I need full
| integration for. This will take a few months to get the
| sensors, FPGA, etc. sorted.
|
| So far with prototype units it was fine, but haven't tested for
| longer periods of time.
| 4ggr0 wrote:
| I know, people are already talking about a price, but I want to
| add my perspective as well.
|
| I was subscribed to the Newsletter, read every blog post and
| generally was pretty hyped for the Simula One. Up until I read
| the blog post about the pricing. That's when I unsubscribed the
| newsletter and forgot about SimulaVR.
|
| Sure, other AR/VR headsets cost as much, but for me its just too
| expensive. I can't spend nearly $3k for a headset I haven't even
| tried. This product is already targetted to a niche without
| considering the price, add in the pricing and that niche gets
| even smaller. Basically, the only people who will buy these are
| rich silicon valley nerds.
|
| Wish SimulaVR the best of luck, but for the moment it seems like
| I can't really support them.
| nsilvestri wrote:
| It's a fairly high-end headset attached to a compoarably
| powerful laptop, and the cost reflects the combined cost of
| both parts. It's expensive but the price makes sense.
| musingsole wrote:
| > attached to a compoarably powerful laptop
|
| This is the part that doesn't make sense. I don't need a
| computer from a product manufacturer focused on something
| else. I already have 10+ computers within reach; 3 of them
| can stream just fine to my Oculus Quest.
|
| Really, is the only way to create a VR PC to eschew all of
| that in favor of some controlled hardware ecosystem? I
| don't/won't buy it.
| kanetw wrote:
| Several reasons:
|
| 1. You need a dedicated PC for this, or the friction of
| having to set everything up will lead to you never using
| it.
|
| 2. VR on Linux is a compatibility _nightmare_. Focusing on
| one configuration as our baseline makes things so much
| simpler.
| musingsole wrote:
| 1. Okay, I have several candidates.
|
| 2. Ok. Welcome to life in Linux?
|
| If these justifications were serious, I should have the
| option to buy just the headset and navigate the
| compatibility problems if I chose. We're talking about
| Linux after all.
|
| Having this one option and hiding behind the excuses I've
| seen indicate they've jumped the shark sooner to
| consumerism than I would've hoped.
| kanetw wrote:
| You do. We sell a tethered edition that's just the
| headset.
| cycomanic wrote:
| You have 10+ computers within reach but you're complaining
| about price? You do realise the irony here don't you?
| musingsole wrote:
| No. I'm emphasizing the ludicrous proposition.
| ryukafalz wrote:
| As someone who has a Quest (which I've used fairly
| regularly) and some tethered headsets (which I haven't
| because they're a pain to set up)... I get it.
| Realistically I can't see myself using a tethered headset
| as a desktop, but I absolutely could see myself using a
| standalone headset like this.
| selfhoster11 wrote:
| You're getting downvoted, but you shouldn't be. Only SV
| salaries mean that 3k is a reasonable amount of money to take a
| gamble on a headset you haven't tried.
|
| I also love Simula One and would love to get the 2nd or 3rd gen
| version, but at the moment it's simply too expensive because of
| the low manufacturing volumes. The price is bound to reduce if
| it becomes popular, and I'm counting on that.
| 4ggr0 wrote:
| > The price is bound to reduce if it becomes popular
|
| That's what I'm hoping for, because I do actually really like
| the product. I just can't afford it, sadly.
| masswerk wrote:
| Not meaning to be picky, but how is this related to the work of
| Ole-Johan Dahl and Kristen Nygaard?
| hirundo wrote:
| George, I'm very interested in your product, but I can only
| afford such a computer every few years. If I knew that I would
| receive it and it would work as advertised with reasonable
| warranty service, I would go ahead and pre-order. But as a
| startup in a notoriously fragile area, it isn't clear that you
| can deliver.
|
| Can you give me any information that would increase my
| confidence, or is this something that you would instead recommend
| to someone who can afford a speculative bet?
| kanetw wrote:
| It's hard to make any guarantees when we're still this early,
| but I'd say assuming we survive this launch, we'll be able to
| honor our warranty. We're going to add a two-year warranty to
| the terms.
|
| Of course, it's up to you whether you consider taking that
| initial risk acceptable.
| marcodiego wrote:
| Looks like a task for pine64.
| ge96 wrote:
| I ordered Pinephone Pro still waiting... I understand they
| just had New Year recently.
|
| edit: I did get the original PP though so I have faith just
| not used to buying something, waiting a long time to get it.
| lhl wrote:
| I'm a bit torn, as on the one hand, I'm squarely in the target
| demo and appreciate the huge amount of work that has gone into
| the project, and the PPD is really exciting. (back in 2015 I
| actually started building my own VR workspace software
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNtZmCDyEyU with an Oculus DK2
| but shelved it for other projects waiting for better HMD hardware
| that never arrived). But sadly, I fear that if I ordered a
| Simula, it might end up years late, half-baked, and sitting on
| the shelf like my LibreM 5 and many other open source hardware
| projects I've backed. (Also the ergonomics of the HMD really
| makes me a iffy on whether it can be worn comfortably for
| extended periods.)
|
| I also think it's also somewhat bad timing, since HMD hardware
| releases are finally picking up. Panasonic's MeganeX, which uses
| 2560x2560 120Hz micro-OLEDs, is finally being released in the
| spring for <$1000 after being first shown 2 years ago (and there
| seem to be lots of similar micro-OLED HMDs in the pipeline from
| various Chinese manufacturers). Also, even though the PPD is much
| lower, there's stuff like the Lynx R1 coming out shortly that
| will also have full OpenXR support, is committed to privacy and
| staying independent, and has number of things that makes it more
| useful as a platform for all-day wear and hacking on: an ultra-
| thin flip-up form factor, 6DoF SLAM, UltraLeap hand tracking, eye
| tracking, and has already-working overlay AR (w/ 20ms camera-eye
| pipeline).
| kanetw wrote:
| We're aware of the micro OLEDs, but they're not able to provide
| the picture quality we desire (at least within a reasonable R&D
| budget). uOLEDs force pancake lenses, which have issues with
| transmission and ghost images.
|
| The Lynx R1 definitely is attractive in its own way. We have
| all of those specs except for the thinness. We're planning for
| our AR latency to be sub-frame (<11ms exposure to display
| photon out), but it needs verification with actual hardware
| which takes a while.
| georgewsinger wrote:
| That demo you linked to is incredibly advanced & impressive for
| 2015. Thanks for sharing.
|
| Agreed there are definitely some cool headsets about to be
| released (both the Lynx and the MeganeX). I wish these projects
| well. Any successful VR headset (even gaming headsets) lift the
| whole industry and interest level up for everyone else. And
| it's also great for consumers, who get more choice.
|
| The niche we're attempting to carve is 100% VR computing
| focused. When you preorder our headset, you're signing up to
| get something that "just works" out of the box specifically for
| this use case (without any further hacking required). We're
| also leaning as much as possible on premium specs, which we
| need to power the clearest and most readable text (which is
| super important for long working sessions).
|
| Finally, I totally understand your concerns about backing a
| project that leads to a never-shipped product. We are committed
| to sending out weekly updates throughout the course of this
| project, and are aiming to have review units finished in a few
| months. Perhaps we can earn your trust over time, or after our
| first batch of headsets ship.
|
| If you change your mind in the interim, you (or anyone else who
| reads this) can use the discount code "DISCOUNT_HN" to get $100
| off today. We also have a partial deposit option ($1,499 now;
| $1,499 before the headset ships) which allows people to spread
| the cost of the headset over time. This allows you to reserve a
| headset now for lower than MSRP ($3,500), but not pay the full
| amount until you see more proof of our progress.
| forgotmyoldacc wrote:
| > Panasonic's MeganeX, which uses 2560x2560 120Hz micro-OLEDs,
| is finally being released in the spring for <$1000
|
| The FoV is probably going to be worse than current gen headsets
| (Index, Quest 1/2, etc).
| armitron wrote:
| To me this is a near-certain failure in waiting, and here's why:
|
| + Limited information, bad comparisons (that "simulated" text
| rendering image is atrocious, where are the actual pulled from
| device and pulled from the OS images)
|
| + Very vague presentation, zero background on team members. Who
| are you? What have you engineered? What have you shipped?
|
| + Godot dependency does not inspire confidence, this is an
| opensource game engine geared for homebrew and indie developers.
| One would expect you'd need a lot more from the graphical
| foundation (latency, performance) since you're trying to do
| something that's never been done to a satisfactory degree before.
|
| + Totally subjective, but my spider sense is going crazy. The
| overall impression I get is that of a project driven by amateurs.
| If you didn't have some actual code on GitHub, I'd totally see
| this as a scam.
|
| Good luck but given how many projects with orders of magnitude
| better technical teams have crashed and burned, I won't be
| jumping on this ship. 3000$ is a lot to ask and you'd need to put
| a lot more on the "can they pull it off?" balancing scales than
| wishful thinking.
| m0llusk wrote:
| Godot has gotten a great deal of polish recently and there are
| those who think it makes a really good foundation for almost
| any kind of interactive application.
| dmitrygr wrote:
| Name collision with an existing and useful tool:
| https://www.nongnu.org/simulavr/
| cdata wrote:
| The website suggests there will be eye and hand tracking, but I
| could not find any mention of head tracking. Will the head be
| tracked in 3DOF or 6DOF?
| kanetw wrote:
| Head tracking (positional) is 6DOF. Got lost in some editing,
| I'll re-add it.
| losvedir wrote:
| Very interesting! I'm sort of baffled at all the comments here
| talking about how the price is too high. I feel like you don't
| see those sort of comments when the new Apple MBP's are announced
| or whatever (and if I understand, this _is_ a computer +
| monitor). Maybe it 's just because the posting time is a bit
| early and so all those San Francisco developers dripping with
| cash aren't up yet.
|
| One quick question I didn't see answered in the video or on the
| home page: what's the accommodation distance? Normally I think my
| eyes would get fatigued if it's too close, but if this is meant
| for working on office-type stuff, then I suppose you'd want it to
| be pretty close to a normal monitor distance away.
| kanetw wrote:
| In the region of 2 meters or so? Going off memory here, but
| something like that.
| 999900000999 wrote:
| The pricing is absolutely nuts.
|
| If it was $1,000 or so, maybe I'd be open to trying it, But at
| nearly 3K there's no way I'm risking that much money.
|
| If your company goes bankrupt tomorrow, and the headset bricks
| itself, I'd have no recourse.
|
| At the same time, I hope you're able to raise funding or
| something and get the cost down to $1,000.
|
| I would absolutely love to have an open source VR headset.
| ahelwer wrote:
| > If your company goes bankrupt tomorrow, and the headset
| bricks itself, I'd have no recourse.
|
| Everything (including the hardware design) is open source, so
| yeah you absolutely would have recourse.
|
| > I would absolutely love to have an open source VR headset.
|
| And this is what it takes to get that.
| georgewsinger wrote:
| I understand your concerns about pricing. We made a post
| earlier this year discussing why our expenses are so high.[1]
| TLDR: Low economies of scale and high launch costs. With that
| said, our pricing and specs are still competitive with ultra-
| premium VR headsets and premium office laptops (which we have
| essentially combined into one unit).
|
| We also have a pricing option to reserve a headset with a
| partial deposit: pay $1,499 now, and then $1,499 right before
| we ship (Q4 '22/Q1 '23 target). This allows you to reserve a
| headset now at a lower price, see more proof throughout the
| year that we are performing our manufacturing duties diligently
| (via weekly updates), and then only paying the remainder of the
| balance ($1,499 + taxes/shipping) once we have the headset
| fully ready to ship to you.
|
| We also just made a discount code for this thread:
| "DISCOUNT_HN" (limited to 10 for now) which adds an extra $100
| off.
|
| [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29923197
| 999900000999 wrote:
| >(Q4 '22/Q1 '23 target)
|
| We'll talk when it actually ships.
|
| You do understand 3k is a ton of money right ? The other
| issue is even if I did pre order , the second you miss a
| release date I'd file a charge back.
|
| Get too many charge backs and payment processors will stop
| accepting orders for you.
|
| To be honest it would make more sense to develop an ultra
| cheap option, anything 1k or less, and you'll find people
| ready to take a risk. You might still get in trouble if you
| miss your ship date though.
|
| You can buy an HTC Vive for 800$, and a PI4 for 60$. Where is
| the other 2k in markup coming from ?
| Chris2048 wrote:
| This would be my concern too. The special sauce is in the
| integration of camera, headset and custom distro (much like
| remarkable is great because of the polish/software, not the
| hardware), but it's hard to see how this works, or if the
| Simula is practical, until you get it and try.
|
| Is the experience seamless, does the display ever lag or
| cause nausea (I've had this before in VR envs) - does it
| get better/worse with long-term usage. Can you see via the
| cameras clearly enough that you never need take the headset
| off, even in the given "cafe" scenario? Is the headset
| comfortable enough for long-term use as a monitor
| replacement - does it get hot or sweaty?
|
| As such, I'll wait for the reviews..
| sbarre wrote:
| > You can buy an HTC Vive for 800$, and a PI4 for 60$.
|
| Why would anyone use Dropbox?? You can just use SFTP, CVS
| and a 5$ VPS... [0]
|
| Seriously though, let's treat your comment as non-trolling:
|
| The HTC Vive - a 6-year-old device - does not have anything
| close to the per-eye resolution needed to do any kind of
| desktop computing, AND it uses outside-in tracking, meaning
| you need external lighthouses so it's not really portable.
|
| You would have been better off saying "You can buy an
| Oculus Quest 2 for $629" instead.
|
| The PI4 does not provide the computing power to drive a VR
| display like that. That's kind of it right there. Bad
| example again.
|
| 0: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9224
| selfhoster11 wrote:
| The Dropbox comment doesn't apply here. Simula One is
| meant for Linux geeks, the exact kind of person who would
| be just as happy (or happier) to roll their own Dropbox
| if it was cheaper.
| sbarre wrote:
| I think you misunderstand the reason that comment is so
| notorious..
| 999900000999 wrote:
| Well at least if my Pi4 + HTC Vive combo doesn't work I
| can send it back.
|
| That's my big concern here, your talking about a new 3k
| device from a company that's never shipped hardware
| before.
|
| Plus with Dropbox they didn't ask early adopters to drop
| 3k!
| pharke wrote:
| Please take a look at the inflation adjusted prices of
| early personal computers for a fair comparison.
| tashoecraft wrote:
| Then you aren't a early adopter. It's astonishing how
| many people here on hackernews don't understand this. Yes
| it's a lot of money, but it isn't comparable to anything
| else on the market right now. If you think it does you
| haven't actually looked at the specs or know anything
| about the VR market right now.
|
| I get being cynical, but damn, ya'll need to shut up and
| stop trolling. This first edition is about testing the
| market. Proving people will buy it in a limited run and
| get the ball moving. If this first run goes well then
| there will hopefully be a v2 that is cheaper and enjoys
| the economies of scale.
|
| It's like you never want a new manufacturer to exist. If
| you aren't going to buy it, then just don't buy it. You
| could say "hey this is too pricey for me right now with
| the risk, maybe in the future I'll be in the market" and
| go on about your day.
| TuringTest wrote:
| > You can buy an HTC Vive for 800$, and a PI4 for 60$.
| Where is the other 2k in markup coming from ?
|
| Good luck running SimulaVR on a PI4...
| Freaken wrote:
| I see people have issues with the price tag, and while it is by
| no mean cheap, since it's actually a full blown computer AND a VR
| headset all in one, it is somewhat justified. The computer specs
| match my Framework laptop and the headset is, on paper, on par or
| better than other high-end VR headsets (and a miles ahead of my
| Meta Quest 2 and other consumer-grade VR headsets).
| survirtual wrote:
| The standalone tethered headset is $2k -- that makes it a
| significantly higher price than other options, especially given
| the risk involved.
|
| It has amazing specs, but $2k for a tethered headset is way too
| high. It needs to be below $1000 for the tethered, bring your
| own compute option.
| ge96 wrote:
| Well people say the Index is expensive at $1K (full kit) this
| thing is 2-5x that. Will be interesting.
|
| Also this scene of him being outside typing while using VR ha.
| It'll be interesting, the shot using it in a coffee shop too
| hmm.
|
| The keyboard is Durgod Fusion btw (non-split one).
| capableweb wrote:
| > Well people say the Index is expensive at $1K (full kit)
| this thing is 2-5x that. Will be interesting.
|
| Isn't the Index just the headset? This is a headset +
| attached computer, different type of beast.
| ge96 wrote:
| Yeah they have a tethered version too, 2x cost. I'm saying
| if people think the Index is expensive for what it is/was,
| this thing is way up there. But hey not everyone drives
| Lamborghinis but that's still a market.
|
| Anyway I preordered one (half up front), I'm down, will
| practice on my Index in the mean time. I am curious about
| their choice of Godot in case I ever get to the level to
| mess with rendering. Would be nice to have curved panels,
| maybe that snap together vs. floating square ones. Excuse
| to learn a new language I guess.
| kanetw wrote:
| Godot was mostly chosen for expedience and hackability.
| With e.g. StardustXR existing now, it's not impossible
| we'll do something new down the line.
|
| Curved panels etc are doable. We primarily use Haskell as
| a "scripting" language for at least some type safety, but
| it should be fairly manageable to get into.
| ge96 wrote:
| Sweet. Yeah I am not talking from experience at all. Just
| think it would be C# or Unity or something cliche like
| that. Anyway I'm going to try out your Simula repo on my
| Index.
| ghostly_s wrote:
| > The keyboard is Durgod Fusion btw (non-split one).
|
| There's a split one?
| ge96 wrote:
| Yeah it's towards the bottom of the page (60% down the
| page), right side, he's wearing it on this apron-looking
| thing.
|
| > Compute with freedom of movement
| georgewsinger wrote:
| We pushed hard on our specs; I appreciate you noticing =] We
| actually compared the Simula One to the Framework Professional
| Edition in an earlier post, so the comparison is apt.[1] We
| have also created a $100 discount code ("DISCOUNT_HN") for this
| thread to help out somewhat on the price.[2]
|
| [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29923197 [2]
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30441454
| nrp wrote:
| It feels strange to be used as a reference point, but we'll
| take it! Like other folks on this thread, I'm interested in
| seeing what you do with Simula One. I agree that it is the
| sort of ambitious though likely niche product that is worth
| testing the wide open future of VR with.
| kanetw wrote:
| I like the concept of the Framework, and we're similarly
| big on being open/repairable/etc.
| ianai wrote:
| Is the computer in the headset? Why? (!!!)
|
| Looks like a great way to cause your neck muscles to spasm
| horribly painfully.
|
| If I were designing these, they'd either be completely
| transparent so AR or the headset would be only the LCD and maybe
| sensors.
| georgewsinger wrote:
| The compute pack is detachable, but leaving it in the back of
| the headset is good for front/rear balance. Most gaming
| headsets on the market today are very front-weight biased.
|
| Our headset supports an "AR Mode" with two front-facing high-
| res RGB cameras.
| ianai wrote:
| Did you consult any physiologists? Anyone who knows what's
| acceptable to those muscles? There's a reason eye glasses use
| lightweight materials. Then all the various treatments to
| make the lenses visually clear and comfortable.
| jdbernard wrote:
| If it's well-balanced I would imagine that it would work
| for long periods of time. We already have some evidence
| from people modifying other VR headset straps to balance
| the weight. I wasn't able to find any information about the
| total weight of the Simula One VRC, but I know personally
| that my motorcycle helmet is close to 4lbs and I have often
| worn that for days at a time with lots of head movement.
| kanetw wrote:
| We don't publish the weight officially yet since we're
| not that far along the development cycle yet. Our target
| is 800g, but we need to find a good balance between
| battery life, thermal solution, and weight.
| kanetw wrote:
| Good idea. We're mostly working off experiences with other
| headsets and e.g. bike helmets here, but having harder data
| would be good.
| ianai wrote:
| It's a cool idea. I remember dreaming of this sort of
| thing in HS. I'm sure there are medical professionals
| who'd be able to inform you for a consultation. Perhaps
| even wiring up some volunteers to see muscular activity
| with various weights. Or yeah maybe helmet design has
| tread this well.
| Freaken wrote:
| Actually, it probably isn't that bad if it's well balanced. I
| own a Meta Quest 2 and I added an external battery at the back
| of the headstrap because it helps balancing the headset while
| playing, preventing it from dropping on my nose too much.
| Karsteski wrote:
| I've been following this project via the mailing list for a few
| months now. I'm genuinely hoping it's a success! Good luck to the
| Simula team!
| moritonal wrote:
| Your site doesn't mention the weight or the battery life.
|
| I guess the real answer is in the dog-food. Does your team use
| VCRs to develop it?
| kanetw wrote:
| The software side does; there's videos of George working on
| Simula in Simula. Trickier for the EE/ME side as it's all
| Windows.
| georgewsinger wrote:
| RE weight: we're targeting 800g (balanced evenly between
| front headset/rear compute pack).[1] This shouldn't be more
| straining than a Valve Index.
|
| RE battery: our target is 3 hrs (for reference: the Quest has
| a 2-3 hour battery life).
|
| Here's the link David was referring to:
| https://youtu.be/FWLuwG91HnI. It shows me dog-fooding
| Simula's software on the HTC Vive.
|
| [1] This is still a preliminary number, which might change as
| we make tradeoffs in battery life vs. thermal solution vs.
| weight.
| GordonS wrote:
| What about heat?
|
| If I'm wearing an entire computer on my head, I would have
| thought it would get pretty hot, especially if I do CPU
| intensive work?
| kanetw wrote:
| It gets toasty but we're including this in the thermal
| solution-- compute pack on the back of your head separate
| from the rest of the headset, airflow going away from
| your head, maybe even additional insulation if there's
| too much conductive heat transfer through the padding.
| renewiltord wrote:
| Holy shit, this is fucking cool, guys. I would love one. I might
| just buy one. It's just the sticker shock that's holding me back
| but this is fresh tech so I can understand the price point.
| Congrats on releasing!
|
| By the way, I think I found the AR interactions sort of strange.
| I think most people will have some sort of trouble talking to an
| unresponsive face (the problem with the eyes covered is that
| they're so expressive in people).
|
| Since I ride a motorcycle as my primary transport, I sometimes
| just leave my helmet on so I can walk up to my office without
| needing to switch to a mask. I find that people find it harder to
| talk to me unless I compensate hard with gestures and full body
| expressions.
|
| The upshot of this whole thing was that I was wondering if even
| the most mild form of expressing something, like say a 64x24 LED
| display on the front headplate that lit up in eye shapes to
| express friendliness would help. Or perhaps it can't be helped;
| and we just have to do the same thing we do where we take earbuds
| out to say "I'm paying attention".
|
| I'm sure you guys considered all this. Very curious to see what
| you thought about.
| kanetw wrote:
| We have a LED display baseline in the founders edition, and it
| might trickle down into the base edition if we have enough
| sales. Definitely something we thought about in terms of
| expressiveness.
| renewiltord wrote:
| Oh, one more thing. This thing is close to the getup the
| Utopians have in _Too Like The Lightning_ and I've always
| wanted that. God, I am so close to buying it.
| mijoharas wrote:
| Hey George, I think you need to remove the `www` from your shop
| link above. This link (found from the page) seems to work
| fine[0].
|
| [0] https://shop.simulavr.com/
| dang wrote:
| Fixed. Thanks!
| georgewsinger wrote:
| Yes, this was totally my mistake. I'm unable to edit the post
| now but emailed dang to see if he can fix it.
| antattack wrote:
| Cool tech. Still, I don't understand how one can wear millimeter
| wave radio transmitters so close to the brain and not be
| concerned.
| kanetw wrote:
| We haven't finalized on the mmWave yet, but there's standards
| for human body exposure that we will of course meet. IEC 62311,
| ICNIRP guidelines, and so on.
|
| The mmWave transmitter is directional, and the basic
| restrictions for local exposure in ICNIRP for the general
| public is at 20W/m2. The transmitter EIRP is 15dBm, so you'd
| need to put the entire transmitter's EIRP into a 4cm * 4cm
| target to exceed those.
| EvanAnderson wrote:
| Is the intention, down the road, to sell new "compute packs" to
| allow for upgrades? Is the interface between the HMD and the
| compute sufficiently engineered and featureful to allow that to
| actually happen?
|
| Similar to a camera system w/ interchangeable lenses, I'd be more
| apt to buy into this ecosystem if I knew that I could keep my HMD
| (w/ prescription inserts, perhaps custom-cut padding, etc) but
| change out the "compute" at a later time.
|
| What's the battery replacement "story"? Can the unit run with an
| external power source without a functioning internal battery?
| chaosharmonic wrote:
| Curious about this too, as well as if the pack is a single unit
| or a set of standard components that you can upgrade
| individually.
| kanetw wrote:
| It's a set of standard components with some custom stuff:
|
| * Intel NUC Compute Element (CPU+RAM)
|
| * Custom heatsink/case
|
| * Custom carrier board for the compute element
|
| * M.2 NVMe SSD
|
| * Battery is still ongoing, but it'll most likely be custom.
|
| At least all custom components will be available from us down
| the line. Not sure down to which granularity (e.g. IC vendors
| might not like it if we sell ICs directly), but as granular
| as possible.
| kanetw wrote:
| 1. Correct. We want users to be able to buy a new HMD and plug
| in their old compute pack, or a new compute pack and plug it
| into their old HMD. The compute pack itself is also upgradable
| (we're based off Intel's NUC Compute Elements, so it's easy to
| upgrade to a new CPU for example).
|
| Component-level upgradability in the HMD itself is more
| difficult, but not impossible. There's a solid amount of
| breathing room and things are modular, so you could e.g.
| replace the cameras or the display/optics assembly etc.
|
| 2. Battery replacement: It'll be able to run off a USB-PD power
| adapter and the battery, while internal, will be easily user-
| replacable.
| EvanAnderson wrote:
| Thanks for taking the time to reply!
|
| Modularity for upgrades within the HMD itself is nice but
| it's not something I'd want to see sacrifices made for. Being
| able to repair the HDM, though, would be a concern to me.
| Something I physically "wear" on my person makes me think
| about long-haul durability and repairs. I'd love to have a
| minimum 5 year expected lifetime for the HMD (if not more
| like 10).
|
| I'm excited about this platform. The cost seems reasonable to
| me but I don't think I'm a first generation adopter. I can
| imagine a second generation version will have a lot of fit-
| and-finish type updates. I'm hoping you get some traction in
| the market.
|
| A VR-based workspace is something I've definitely dreamed
| about.
| roughly wrote:
| Man, what has HAPPENED to this place? I'm the biggest curmudgeon
| in the room, I'll have six feet of dirt on my face before I agree
| to use this daily, but damn, folks, this IS cool. Everyone
| complains about boring stagnating consumer tech, locked-down
| hardware, and Mark Zuckerberg making a real go at personally
| stalking every single person on the planet - this is the _exact
| opposite of that_. This is high-end, incredibly weird, deeply
| niche hardware running open-source software. Yes, it costs a lot
| - that's the cost of not making another shitty piece of spyware-
| laden consumer bullshit. You're not gonna buy it? Cool, I get it.
| But my god, not everything has to appeal to the whole fucking
| market. That kind of thinking is why every damn car on the road
| is exactly the same shitty crossover as every other one.
|
| George, David, this is rad. Kudos for building it, kudos for
| selling it, and good luck to you and your team - I sincerely hope
| you succeed, because the world needs more of your kind of weird.
| kanetw wrote:
| Thank you!
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| Exactly.
|
| I often look at vintage tech and lament how boring everything
| is now. Will anybody look back on our modern devices in 30
| years? We are surrounded daily by utterly soulless slabs
| chained to walled-garden ecosystems.
| gfodor wrote:
| Yep, agree 100%. Few hackers remain on hacker news.
| echelon wrote:
| > Few hackers remain on hacker news.
|
| I don't think that's true at all.
|
| Think of all the people who are simply choosing not to post.
| And the nearly unlimited supply of "Show HN" hackery we see
| on a daily basis.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| dang wrote:
| The top 10+ subthreads are all positive - I think I had to go
| all the way to #18 to find a negative one. You may be falling
| prey to the contrarian dynamic:
| https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...
| roughly wrote:
| You may well be right - and, to the point of your
| explanations about the dynamic, the sentiment definitely
| seems to have shifted - which is great!
| dang wrote:
| Thanks for the kind reply--I always brace myself when
| posting like that!
| vbuterin wrote:
| When I visited this thread 2h ago, the top subthread was
| negative.
|
| Definitely some kind of weird dynamic going on...
| octopoc wrote:
| This might be because it's easier to write a quick putdown
| than a thoughtful comment, so the first comments tend to be
| the quick putdowns. Thankfully the more thoughtful comments
| rise to the top, but that takes time.
| dang wrote:
| That's exactly the contrarian dynamic--your description
| is spot on! It's an artifact of the commenting process,
| not a representative sample of the community, and it
| happens in many threads. Maybe most threads.
|
| https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&
| sor...
| necrotic_comp wrote:
| Agreed 100%. I saw this and immediately fell in love. This is
| _incredible_ and I 'm super stoked to see how it comes out.
| georgewsinger wrote:
| Thank you for the kind words. Even if VR computers aren't for
| everyone, we promise to keep things weird.
| roughly wrote:
| So one thing that may help the sales pitch to the hacker
| demographic here - I think we've all seen a bunch of
| promising hardware companies come and go. I know you guys are
| going to survive for the next century, but if you made a
| point of being extremely open with the hardware design,
| especially around the compute module, I think that would make
| a difference in people's value calculations. The closer you
| can make this to "I can buy commodity hardware and make it
| work with this headset", the better the value proposition
| becomes, because it means that I have something I can upgrade
| and work with over time, even after you all get so
| fantastically wealthy from building these that you retire to
| Bali and forget all this tawdry capitalism stuff.
| mtsr wrote:
| Indeed, but maybe the NUC-included-model is important for
| the margin? Although from the price difference between the
| models that might not even be the case.
| roughly wrote:
| I'm not talking about going full "BYOC" - I think they
| should still sell the whole kit - but I think it'd make
| it easier to see the long-term value proposition if I
| know I _can_ build my own compute module in the future -
| that I'm not wholly reliant on their corporate solvency
| to use the hardware going forward. Effectively, they've
| got an all-in-one computer with a really
| novel/interesting display, and the issue with many all-
| in-one computers is that the computer guts usually age
| faster and less gracefully than the displays. They're
| showing the compute part as modular, but that's not
| useful if the company isn't around in ~3 years unless I
| can build my own.
| kanetw wrote:
| The NUC is actually a bit subsidized compared to the
| tethered version.
| LoveMortuus wrote:
| Did anyone have to find battery life? I keep looking but t can't
| find it... It could be because I'm on mobile. Kinda strange,
| since this is quite an important part.
|
| If you find battery life, please tell me!
| kanetw wrote:
| Battery life isn't in the specs yet because it's TBD. We're
| targeting 3 hours, but that's not a final number and might
| change if we notice that it's too heavy or we still have usable
| mass budget etc.
| LoveMortuus wrote:
| Three hours seems very low, but I guess it count be doable if
| the charge time is one hour or less. That way I could see it
| like, it forces you to stretch your legs. Damn... I'm
| guessing swappable batteries aren't on the roadmap. But the
| tech looks really cool, especially because MAYBE it could be
| used while laying in the bed.
|
| Best of luck! I hope you'll be profitable and continue to
| develop the tech!
| kanetw wrote:
| Swappable isn't planned for the v1, yeah. V2, maybe.
|
| Charge time should be about an hour (1C charging).
| cardosof wrote:
| This is the coolest way I've seen to have my mind focused on work
| 24/7 even while I'm laying down resting. If my employer gives me
| one of those I'll quit on the spot but I want to buy one
| (secretly) to try it, damn.
| twmiller wrote:
| ...does the video of the guy in the coffee shop remind anyone
| else of Neil Stephenson's description of 'gargoyles' in Snow
| Crash?
| moron4hire wrote:
| As a VR developer, I'm super excited about your device. I work
| for a foreign language instruction service, where we teach adults
| in diplomatic and security service settings. We've built a VR app
| that lets our students meet with their instructors remotely and
| practice language skills in culturally-appropriate settings.
|
| In that capacity, I've done a _lot_ of pricing out of VR kits and
| evaluation of devices. It became pretty clear early on that A)
| our students need the simplest possible setup that we can ship to
| them, B) the market is still too volatile and the current
| dominant players are too platform-oriented to commit fully to any
| one headset, and C) we need to be able to iterate rapidly, on our
| own, away from any app store.
|
| Balancing all of these requirements eventually led us to building
| a WebXR app. It runs pretty much everywhere (any VR headset that
| matters[0], desktop, mobile[1]). We had high hopes for the Pico
| Neo and the HTC Vive Focus, but we primarily target the Meta
| Quest 2.
|
| Mozilla was the biggest factor in that decision to focus on the
| Quest 2, because they really dropped the ball with Firefox
| Reality. Firefox Reality's last update was over a year ago,
| despite many desperately needed fixes for major show-stopper
| defects. Stuff like not being able to handle non-default IPD
| without massively distorting the image. Stuff like not being able
| to anti-alias the framebuffer the VR context uses. Stuff like
| janky ImageBitmap support forcing all of our texture pre-
| processing into the main render thread. Lesser stuff like being
| based on the pre-standards WebVR API, which lacked all but the
| most basic of VR features.
|
| Quest's Oculus Browser is based on Chromium, with support for
| some experimental WebXR features that drastically improve the
| experience such as the Layers extension and the high refresh rate
| support. The lack of a serious browser competitor to Chrome
| across the entire market--but especially in a greenfield market
| like VR, when Mozilla has Hubs as a revenue-earning concern--has
| been the single biggest impediment to our ability to be truly
| cross-platform. But now Igalia has picked up the torch with
| Wolvic, so we're looking forward to seeing where that goes.
|
| Wanting to stay out of any app stores and not wanting to require
| our users to have to share any data (see above on who we serve,
| Facebook login is a hard stop), we bought 35 headsets through the
| Oculus for Business program over the course of last year. Then
| with the Meta announcement Facebook also announced they are
| shutting down Oculus for Business.
|
| So needless to say, this has been a very rocky journey. An open
| source, high-end, standalone, not-tied-to-a-platform VR headset
| can't come soon enough.
|
| I'm curious if you have any plans on making any lower spec models
| at a lower price point? I've found that, given all our needs, we
| can't get any combo of kit together for less than roughly $1000,
| after you add up all the licensing and accessory costs. We're
| really comfortable spending that amount of money per headset.
| PCVR is a no-go for us--we already have enough problems getting
| linguists to figure out how to use the Quest 2 that I'm not going
| to toss a tethered VR setup at them--but if we were to go there
| it'd be around $2000.
|
| We'll probably be able to get by with our current fleet of
| headsets for at least a year, but at that point we're going to be
| looking at depreciating them out. We have enough to cover about
| 10% of our student body at any one time, which is more than
| enough now, but my hope is to grow the app and start encouraging
| instructors to use VR as well. We basically choose the number of
| headsets we have based on how much we can afford, and then we
| push it out to students based on how many we have available, so
| any reduction in price is directly transferable to growth for us.
|
| [0] I don't know of any currently that don't have some browser
| support available, though see my notes on Firefox later.
|
| [1] Minus iOS, for well-known reasons, but that might be getting
| better soon. Not that it matters, nobody is using it that way.
| [deleted]
| thinkyfish wrote:
| I'm actually really hyped for this, I was thinking I would have
| to get the ultra-proprietary Varjo headsets to get a really good
| headset in 2022, but I'm really looking hard at the Tethered
| version and building my own RDNA2 based compute unit. I'd much
| rather give 2k to an open source project.
| kanetw wrote:
| Nice! Fair warning, you'll probably have reduced AR mode
| fidelity in tethered mode unless you have a Thunderbolt/PCIe
| link. Our compute pack uses a PCIe Gen3 x4 link to the front
| FPGA to get uncompressed image data (compression is something I
| want to avoid due to latency and memory bandwidth issues).
|
| Ideally we would have a way to compose the AR image in the
| front, but that's a massive engineering challenge.
| survirtual wrote:
| Edit: shop had the wrong link
|
| At $3,000+, you are leaving very little room for people who want
| to see you succeed to support you.
|
| Best of luck.
| kanetw wrote:
| We're using Shopify and it's up on my end. Looks like George
| somehow added a www. -- the URL is https://shop.simulavr.com
| survirtual wrote:
| My mistake, okay.
|
| Edit: standalone is ~$2k. At these kinds of prices, will have
| to wait it out and see if they can deliver.
|
| The price has to come down somehow to make this more readily
| available / accelerate use.
| kanetw wrote:
| We have a headset-only version priced at $2k. This is
| roughly comparable to other higher end headsets on the
| market and includes AR cameras
| survirtual wrote:
| I get it, making something like this isn't cheap. I hope
| you can pull it off, VR computing is the dream.
|
| I would say this might necessitate an investor injecting
| liquidity and selling the headset below margins to
| generate a community initially, while also putting
| manufacturing pressure on you all to find creative ways
| to lower cost without compromising quality.
|
| Hate to say it, but at $2k min for a tethered device, I
| would just go with a Quest for $300 or a Hololens for
| $3000.
| mdrzn wrote:
| This is extremely well done and promising for the future of mass
| adoption for VR. Congrats! I still have a Rift S and I'm not in
| the linux universe, but this is very very interesting.
| RajT88 wrote:
| Price is too rich for my blood, but I will be watching with
| interest how it goes.
|
| I have tried working in VR a few times with my WMR headset and
| never found a setup which was effective. This looks pretty good!
| I would love to give it a try first of course.
| georgewsinger wrote:
| Thanks for your interest. We're looking forward to review units
| shipping out in the next few months, which might help you get a
| sense for how the product performs by real testers. We also
| will be sending our weekly updates showcasing the progress of
| our headset development (you can subscribe here if you're
| interested: https://newsletter.simulavr.com/).
|
| RE pricing: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30441454
|
| Which WMR headset did you try? The main improvement our headset
| will likely have over your previous experience is a
| significantly higher PPD/pixel density (which helps text become
| legible). The exception is if you tried the HoloLens, which has
| a fairly decent PPD (but a very low FoV).
| neiman1 wrote:
| Super cool, love it. Is it possible to make a version that plugs
| into the back of my head?
| georgewsinger wrote:
| This will be featured with the Simula Two (Matrix Edition).
| schaefer wrote:
| Hi George,
|
| I'm definitely super interested in the space - to the extent that
| I've ordered recently received a competitor's product (the Varjo
| Aero) with the intent that would be used almost exclusively for
| productivity.
|
| I have to be blunt, the going has been rough. The clarity of the
| display is more than up to the task of writing software all day.
| But, the Aero is a windows only product. There either isn't, or I
| haven't found a productive Windows PCVR windows manager
| comparable to either SimulaVR or Immersed. This lack of software
| was completely unexpected, and rather shocking to me.
|
| After the Simula One is available on the market, I may well pivot
| to that device. But do you know of anyone who is taking on the
| effort of running SimulaVR on a windows host through any means? I
| don't mind rolling up my sleeves and doing work, but right now I
| don't see any path at all.
|
| My current productivity is stuck to a projection of the desktop
| in a VR space, rather than a true window to window, application
| level VR window manager.
| kanetw wrote:
| Thanks. This is exactly why we're making our own device--we
| even talked to Varjo, but no interest in Linux compat.
|
| The problem with getting Simula _VR_ (Simula One will be
| compatible) to run is the lack of a WM API. Your best bet in
| that regard would be to get Microsoft to expose it or do WMR
| compatibility? It 's a bit out of scope for us, we're focusing
| on OpenXR as #1 and SteamVR as fallback.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2022-02-23 23:00 UTC)