[HN Gopher] OK for Apple to Call Sagan 'Butt-Head Astronomer' (1... ___________________________________________________________________ OK for Apple to Call Sagan 'Butt-Head Astronomer' (1994) Author : Lammy Score : 51 points Date : 2022-02-23 20:46 UTC (2 hours ago) (HTM) web link (web.archive.org) (TXT) w3m dump (web.archive.org) | drewcoo wrote: | That's ok. I have an Apple Genius in my garage. | | https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/The_Dragon_in_My_Garage | donatj wrote: | > In response, the project manager changed the computer's code- | name to "Butt-Head Astronomer." Sagan filed suit in federal court | for libel [and] the use of likenesses. | | I feel like the latter legally counteracts the former. For it to | be his likeness, has has to admit that he is infact a "Butt-Head | Astronomer". If you openly admit you are something, it's not | libel? | | See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_penis_rule | not2b wrote: | Apple had the legal right, sure, but they should have just | respected Sagan's desire for them not to use his name without | being dicks about it. | | They used his name without permission for a codename, he asked | them to stop, so the changed the name to "Butt-Head Astronomer", | in a way that everyone involved with the project knew it was a | reference to him. I pictured a bunch of people with the emotional | maturity of 15-year-olds when I saw that. | dvt wrote: | > Apple had the legal right, sure, but they should have just | respected Sagan's desire for them not to use his name without | being dicks about it. | | To me, it sounds like Carl Sagan is being a dick. It was an | internal name, so who cares. It's kind of an honor. I don't | really understand the cringe-inducing sainthood that the online | tech/nerd community bestowed upon Carl Sagan over the past 30 | years. I don't even think he did that much original research. | Lammy wrote: | > They used his name without permission for a codename, he | asked them to stop | | There's some additional context that makes me more sympathetic | to Sagan here too. The "Carl Sagan"/"BHA" machine (Power | Macintosh 7100) was introduced alongside two other machines | whose codenames reference fraudulent/unproven science: | | - The 6100 is "Piltdown Man" | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Macintosh_6100 | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piltdown_Man | | - The 8100 is "Cold Fusion" | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Macintosh_8100 | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion | caycep wrote: | https://www.engadget.com/2014-02-26-when-carl-sagan-sued-app... | yjftsjthsd-h wrote: | > There can be no question that the use of the figurative term | "Butt-Head" negates the impression that Defendant was seriously | implying an assertion of fact. It strains reason to conclude | that Defendant was attempting to criticize Plaintiff's | reputation or competency as an astronomer. One does not | seriously attack the expertise of a scientist using the | undefined phrase "butt-head." | | Oh, to have been a fly on the wall when the judge said/wrote | that... | hownottowrite wrote: | Most of what people love about Carl Sagan is really just Ann | Druyan showing through. | [deleted] | jl2718 wrote: | I had an office-mate who maintained the telescopes at CalTech, | and this was also his personal opinion about Sagan. | echelon wrote: | Care to elaborate? I've always held Sagan in utmost esteem and | I'm curious others' takes are. | | The last time I read his Wikipedia entry it mentioned that | contemporaneous scientists felt he wasn't contributing much to | the field despite his fame, but I think public outreach is | immensely valuable in shaping the next generation of | discoverers and policy makers. | kelnos wrote: | Unfortunately many prominent/famous people present an | extremely curated and sanitized version of their personality | to the public, and often treat people poorly in private. | Shame to learn that seems to have been the case for someone | like Sagan. | awb wrote: | Another perspective is that we idolize many | prominent/famous people and when they have a normal range | of emotions (fear, anger, disgust, resentment, frustration, | etc.), or just having a bad day, we judge them for it. | ars wrote: | I've never publicly said this before, but I had this | experience with Donald Knuth - I emailed asking him for | copyright permission for something on Wikipedia, and he | gave it (public domain), but he was extremely nasty about | it because I had to reply asking for clarification and | apparently receiving an email was extremely disruptive to | him. | | I try not to talk to public figures, most of them are only | nice when in the context of what they are trying to sell. | The rare exceptions deserve the praise they get. | | I don't even know why I'm writing this......... it was | years ago. | EvanAnderson wrote: | Knuth's distaste for email is well known: https://www-cs- | faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/email.html | | That doesn't excuse being nasty to somebody, though. | pmcollins wrote: | i saw sagan speak at berkeley in the mid nineties. he was | shockingly and brazenly rude to the person running the a/v | setup, through his microphone, so the entire overflowing | audience could hear every last detail. it was way over the | top. appreciate all he's done for science and outreach but it | seems he had an intense personality. | spaetzleesser wrote: | The reasonably famous people I have interacted with had | public and private personas that were very distinct from each | other. The public persona is what most people but the private | persona can be very different. Being famous is basically an | acting job. And to become famous you usually have to be very | driven and can't always be nice. | AndrewGreen wrote: | I met him once. Right after Shoemaker-Levy 9 impacted Jupiter | there was an event at the Mountain View Holiday Inn where he | talked about it. I'd arrived a bit early (as an attendee), | and while waiting for things to kick off I snuck out for a | cigarette. Halfway through it, there was Carl (f*cking) Sagan | walking across the parking lot towards me! I dropped/stubbed | my cig and told him how much I was inspired by 'Cosmos' and | especially by the Library of Alexandria episode/ He said yes, | it was really good and that was mainly down to his wife's | work. And then he signed my cheap paperback copy of 'Cosmos' | and headed in to the seminar. I'm sure he could be a dick. | But that certainly wasn't all he was. | localhost wrote: | A link to the JudyRecord of the judgement [1] yields a better | quote: | | Because a reasonable factfinder could not conclude that "Butt- | Head Astronomer" implied that Plaintiff was a less than able | astronomer or that Plaintiff was legally wrong in asking | Defendant to cease using Plaintiff's name, the only remaining | assertion is the bare statement that Plaintiff is a "Butt-Head | Astronomer." Clearly this phrase cannot rest on a core of | objective evidence. Plaintiff does not suggest any other | assertions of objective fact that could be reasonably implied | from the phrase. | | Based on an analysis of the factors identified in Unelko, the | Court has no reason to conclude that the statement made by | Defendant implies an assertion of objective fact. Milkovich, 497 | U.S. at 21, 110 S. Ct. at 2707 . Therefore, the statement is | protected under the First Amendment and cannot form the basis of | a claim for libel. | | [1] https://www.judyrecords.com/record/zbvxoh5rdf1a | CamperBob2 wrote: | _Therefore, the statement is protected under the First | Amendment and cannot form the basis of a claim for libel._ | | That's kind of odd. What does the First Amendment have to do | with libel law? Doesn't 1A constrain only the government from | prohibiting or forcing speech? | thaumasiotes wrote: | > Doesn't 1A constrain only the government from prohibiting | or forcing speech? | | They can't punish it either. | unixfg wrote: | Who enforces libel law? | kelnos wrote: | Libel laws, themselves, are a restriction on free speech, no? | If I sue someone for libel and win, it's not _me_ that 's | restricting the other party's freedom of speech, it's the | government. I merely asked them to do it. | awb wrote: | > However, Apple lost its motions for a more definite statement | of Sagan's Lanham Act claim. Apple had argued that Sagan's | complaint had admitted that his name was only used internally | at Apple, and could not, therefore, have been "in commerce" as | required by the Act. Judge Baird noted that Sagan's complaint | only asserted that Apple's attorneys had stated that the name | was only used internally. Finally, Judge Baird denied Apple's | motion to strike Sagan's invasion of privacy count as redundant | in light of the right of publicity claim. She noted that the | former asserted an additional request for punitive damages, and | that the other redundant elements did not prejudice the | defendant in any way. | | INAL so hard for me to parse this, but does this mean that some | elements of the lawsuit were allowed to progress? | spunker540 wrote: | Pretty rare for me to see a case with Apple where I feel it's the | other party being overly litigious about trivial naming! | kelnos wrote: | That was my thought as well! I clicked on this expecting to | read a tale of some sort of corporate overreach. | | As much as I respect Carl Sagan for his contributions to | science (and promoting public knowledge of scientific | concepts), he does sound like a butt-head. | gwd wrote: | I think Sagan was totally right to ask Apple to clarify that | he had not endorsed their product. | | I think Apple engineers were being butt-heads when they got | annoyed at this and renamed the project "BHA". | | But that should have been as far as Sagan went; suing for | libel because someone calls you a "butt-head" is really | foolish. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-02-23 23:01 UTC)