[HN Gopher] USPS Forges Ahead with Gas-Powered Mail Trucks Despi... ___________________________________________________________________ USPS Forges Ahead with Gas-Powered Mail Trucks Despite EPA's Desire for EVs Author : keithly Score : 47 points Date : 2022-02-23 21:55 UTC (1 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.caranddriver.com) (TXT) w3m dump (www.caranddriver.com) | h2odragon wrote: | I have the strong impression that the current fleet of LLVs are, | at this point, each an individual work of patchwork art, still | moving only due to the constant attention of dedicated genius | grade mechanics. But that would not be possible had they not been | built, intentionally, with some of the most common and vanilla | parts available. | | A new fleet that uses parts nothing else does will be an | expensive boondoggle destined for quick sale as surplus. | kevinventullo wrote: | I would love for these trucks to be EV's as much as anyone, but I | can see where USPS is coming from. Some selected quotes from the | article: | | _The USPS did say that it plans to put 5000 electric delivery | trucks into service starting in 2023 and claims that there is | room for more EVs to be added to the mix "should additional | funding become available."_ | | _"While we can understand why some who are not responsible for | the financial sustainability of the Postal Service might prefer | that the Postal Service acquire more electric vehicles, the law | requires the Postal Service to be self-sufficient," a USPS | spokesperson told the Post in a statement._ | | Armchair take: If the EPA really wants these changes, they should | be lobbying higher up the food chain in order to subsidize these | EV's in some way. | newsclues wrote: | EV or not, why is it so fuel inefficient? | arcticbull wrote: | Constant stopping and starting. This is where most car energy | is expended. Cars are most fuel efficient when they're | rolling about 50MPH. | l33t2328 wrote: | I've heard this many times, but I've never actually seen it | cited. | MrRadar wrote: | It's the reason why vehicles have a separate "city" and a | "highway" fuel economy rating, since the former takes | into account the expected stopping and starting you do in | city traffic which you would not on an uncongested | highway. | hobs wrote: | It's just basic newtonian physics, it takes energy to | start and stop moving and a lot less to keep doing what | you are doing. | mechanical_bear wrote: | They spend lots of time accelerating, braking, and idling. | [deleted] | babypuncher wrote: | Because they spend the vast majority of their operating time | stopping, idling, and accelerating at low speeds, . They are | pretty much a worst case scenario for ICE efficiency. | fpoling wrote: | But then the cars do not need to be electric! A hybrid with | a small battery will suite this as well and, given the | current price of batteries, will be cheaper. | toomuchtodo wrote: | This might be the lobbying. If so, just cut them a check for | the EV cost delta and installing EV charging stations at USPS | facilities where vehicles are parked. | stetrain wrote: | Yes, this is a bigger policy and legislative failure that let | the previous gen trucks get so old and the new contract go | through without a mandate and funding for reduced emissions. | jfengel wrote: | That's interesting, since electric vehicles should be cheaper | in the long run -- especially if they can arrange lower prices | for overnight charging. | | Perhaps the up-front costs of an electric vehicle are | prohibitive for their constrained financial situation. If so, | that is an unfortunate bind, if it causes more financial costs | in the long run. | wnevets wrote: | Its shameful that Dejoy is still allowed to ruin the USPS. | humanistbot wrote: | Note that this is at the order of Postmaster General Louis DeJoy, | who was appointed to the post by Trump in 2020. The same one who | slowed down the mail service around the election and is the | founder CEO of XPO logistics, which is a huge conflict of | interest. The Biden administration directed USPS to go electric, | but they are quasi-independent. | detaro wrote: | Given the failures and complaintslast year, why does he still | have that job? From wikipedia it seems like the politics around | the board selecting the Postmaster General even being | functional seem to have been difficult in the past years, is | that the main reason? | ghostly_s wrote: | Give me a break. If the admin wants the postal service to go EV, | pay for it. The very fact that the USPS remains solvent under the | conditions they are forced to operate is a damn miracle. Put up | or shut up. | Jtsummers wrote: | > Give me a break. If the admin wants the postal service to go | EV, pay for it. The very fact that the USPS remains solvent | under the conditions they are forced to operate is a damn | miracle. Put up or shut up. | | From the article: | | > President Biden's social spending package proposal unveiled | last year included $6 billion for the USPS to purchase new | vehicles, but that proposal is still being debated in Congress. | | So it looks like the administration has, in fact, tried to "put | up". | CameronNemo wrote: | _WASHINGTON, Feb 8 (Reuters) - The U.S. House of | Representatives overwhelmingly approved a bill on Tuesday to | provide the Postal Service (USPS) with about $50 billion in | financial relief over a decade and requiring future retirees to | enroll in a government health insurance plan._ | | https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-house-approves-50-billio... | | _Sen. Rick Scott, R-Fla., blocked an initial vote Monday [Feb | 14] on the Postal Service bill, saying it needed to be | reworked._ | | https://apnews.com/article/business-postal-service-marsha-bl... | | Go ahead and keep blaming this administration for problems | created by Bush that Republicans in the Senate refuse to | remedy. | anm89 wrote: | God forbid I wouldn't get junkmail littered through my mail slot | one day. | theedman wrote: | I really think this is a best-case scenario for a hybrid. You get | EV-ish efficiency in the city, a decrease in wear on mechanical | parts, especially things like brakes, and no range related issues | that come with a BEV - if using hybrid SUV's as a datapoint, | modern hybrid systems even get better MPG on the highway then | their gas counterparts. | | It's clear that if you buy a consumer vehicle, the extra cost a | hybrid pays quickly off over the course of ownership, and | maintenance isn't nearly as expensive as it was when the came out | 20 years ago. | | I totally get why hybrid 18-wheelers don't exist - there's very | little stopping involved, so the benefits of the regenerative | braking, and the off-the-line electric efficiency are null, but | USPS trucks have to stop hundreds of times per trip. | | Modern day hybrids are fuel efficient, generally more powerful | then their gas counterparts, and are bullet-proof enough to be | used as taxi cab fleets in NYC. Someone's going to say that you | need to haul a bunch of stuff. The F150 Hybrid gets 25mpg vs the | 20mpg of the gas. It really doesn't make sense to me. | chrisbrandow wrote: | So stupid. | post_break wrote: | They must be paying for these with the funds from not having to | install mailboxes. We found out the law changed recently and now | communal mail boxes are no longer their responsibility which is | crazy. | twothamendment wrote: | I can understand not switching 100% all at once, but it seems | like they'd want to stick their foot in the water and try it out | in some ideal areas. | | As someone who lives in an area that is outside the norm (postal | vehicles aren't the standard issue), it wouldn't be a good idea | here - but they have to be perfect for somewhere... | ars wrote: | They are - I read they are doing 10% EV's, with flexibility to | increase that if it works well. | | It seems to me the ones asking for EV are not the ones paying | for it, which seems to be the problem. | Mountain_Skies wrote: | IIRC, this design does allow for switching over to | manufacturing an EV powertrain relatively easily. Not sure if | this is also true for conversion of already built vehicles but | even if not, over time attrition would move most over to EV. | warning26 wrote: | So weird, considering that mail delivery seems perfectly suited | for EVs; the charging can be consolidated where trucks are parked | overnight anyway. | lettergram wrote: | You can't drive 8 hrs on a single charge. Particularly in | colder climates with less population density. My mail is | delivered by someone driving a jeep down a creek lol | | From a cost-benefit perspective gas is still king. Otherwise | you'll need 1.5-2x EV trucks for every one gas powered. | toomuchtodo wrote: | https://electrek.co/2016/02/25/mail-man-tesla-model-s/ | | https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/customer-stories/electric-mail | | With an EV, it's a function of route distance, not route | time. | gambiting wrote: | >>You can't drive 8 hrs on a single charge | | If you're doing a grand total of a 100 miles in those 8 | hours, you sure can - and city delivery vehicles will do even | less than that. Yes sure it won't work if you're driving | hundreds of miles every day - but even with postal services | that's extremely rare, those are last mile delivery trucks | not long distance transporters | labster wrote: | My mail is delivered by a guy who parks halfway down the | block, walks to 20 houses or so, then moves the truck every | 20 min or so. I doubt he spends more than a half hour driving | every day. Obviously rural routes should not use EVs yet but | this is not the majority of mail delivery. | aleksandrm wrote: | Someone is probably pocketing from the deal. Always follow the | money. | [deleted] | Spivak wrote: | I mean even if they went with EVs you could still say that. | Who _isn 't_ financially motivated by obscenely wasteful | government contracts? | | $11.3 billion / 150 thousand trucks = $73k / truck | voldemort1968 wrote: | People think this kind of logic is an example of thinking, | but it's actually thought suppression. | humanistbot wrote: | > People think this kind of logic is an example of | thinking, but it's actually thought suppression. | | You think the kind of logic you expressed is an example of | thinking, but it is literally thought suppression, because | you are using it to try to get someone to stop thinking | about a certain thing (following the money) and not giving | them anything else to think about. | TAForObvReasons wrote: | "follow the money" would actually give you the opposite | conclusion. | | It's not free to switch to electric. Infrastructure costs | like building charging stations and maintenance, labor | costs like retraining drivers, and a huge number of other | costs must be modeled before understanding the true | economics. | | Merely saying "someone is probably pocketing" | demonstrates a shallow analysis of the situation. | guynamedloren wrote: | What? | BoysenberryPi wrote: | Explain this comment to me. It seems reasonable to come to | the conclusion that someone is profiting on the side from | this deal. Especially given the current postmaster general. | Is there some other trail of thought you think is being | neglected from jumping to this conclusion? | ceejayoz wrote: | It's a silly comment because any deal would involve | someone making a profit. | haswell wrote: | Would you expand on why you believe this to be true? | | I don't think it's wise to focus _only_ on money without | considering other factors; however, when looking at | decisions like this that don 't make sense on the surface, | especially when political factors are in play, money is | very often going to be a driving factor. | oh_sigh wrote: | If you have a surface level understanding of a problem | and don't understand the proposed solution, then the best | path forward is to dig a little deeper and understand the | problem better, or just move on with your life and accept | that you can't know everything about every field. | | Deciding that your surface level understanding of the | problem coupled with some general concepts (ie money is | often a driving factor), is enough to make a confident | pronouncement on the issue is exactly self-inflicted | thought suppression. | Uehreka wrote: | Part of the problem is that people say "I'm telling you | someone's making a buck, just follow the money", then | they don't actually follow the money. For many people, | it's enough to just say that catchphrase and not even | bother looking into it. The argument wins itself. | | Another part of the problem is that when I do see people | follow the money, they often come up with something like | "the deputy undersecretary of the USPS's brother used to | work for Ford (as a mechanic at a dealership when they | were in college)!" And then they treat that fact as if it | overrules all the complicated forces that go into this | kind of organizational decision-making. | | So no, following the money is not a bad idea on paper. | But in practice it's often very sloppy, to the point that | it's frequently annoying when trying to have meaningful | debate about policy issues. | SllX wrote: | > when looking at decisions like this that don't make | sense on the surface | | The USPS is ordering a fleet of trucks to operate in all | of the United States of America from the Arctic Circle to | Hawaii and the Florida Keys. They can't just order EVs, | they have to order the infrastructure to charge them and | they need mechanics that can service them, and the trucks | have to be able to operate anywhere the USPS deploys | them. | | Maybe that's an argument for a mixed fleet, and there's | certainly room for criticism in any large government | expenditure and of USPS itself, but it does not on the | surface make no sense given that we still depend on USPS | to deliver Mail to a service area that per Congressional | mandate includes every address in America. Personally I | think a mid-generation partial upgrade of the fleet to | EVs would give USPS time to work out kinks, charging | infrastructure and mechanic concerns without sacrificing | the reliability of their service ahead of the generation | after this one is probably the way to go. | Spooky23 wrote: | My dad was a rural mail carrier. It's stop go stop go. I don't | think it would be a great EV use case at all. | | USPS is pretty smart/efficient with this stuff. | ars wrote: | Stop/go is perfect for EV, although I think rural areas are | not a good choice. | | Maybe they should do a mix: EV urban, and gas rural. | mft_ wrote: | Low speed urban stop-go driving _is_ where EVs excel versus | ICE, I think? | Spooky23 wrote: | It's pretty extreme. Brake pads every 7-10k miles. | | I would think that it would be pretty draining. Perhaps | not! | mft_ wrote: | Again, with regenerative braking, something else that EVs | are also better at :) | stetrain wrote: | EVs slow down by generating power and putting it back in | the battery. Many EV owners report brakes lasting 100k | miles or more due to the reduced usage. | MrMan wrote: | its great for EV, its low speed, they do best in stop and go | type traffic. | danans wrote: | That's exactly the driving pattern EVs are most efficient at | oh_sigh wrote: | stop/go/stop/go is perfect for regenerative braking at the | very least(not necessarily limited to EVs, but more common | with them than ICEs). Also, on the stop portions, there would | be zero emissions. I imagine the stop portions are probably a | bigger overall part of the day than the go portions, at least | based on how my mailman operates. | seiferteric wrote: | plus all the starting and stopping, you would think would | benefit from regenerative breaking. | akira2501 wrote: | The USPS delivers mail in both urban and rural, famously, | regardless of the climates of those locations. I still think | EVs are a generation short of being able to be deployed in this | type of "long life" fleet, and I'm not sure there is enough | manufacturing capacity to build the fleet fast enough for the | USPS. | ghostly_s wrote: | Most rural delivery is handled by contractors who use their | own vehicles, I believe. | boardwaalk wrote: | re: manufacturing. They're only looking at buying 150k | trucks. Even Tesla (famously more valued than their output) | has a run rate of over a million per year now. So I'm not | thinking that's really an issue. | | The cost/time to bring up a production line for just these | trucks doesn't seem like it should be cheaper if their gas | either. If anything, sharing a 'skateboard' with a delivery | van or something would make it even easier. | stetrain wrote: | The average USPS _rural_ route is 45 miles, well within the | capability of even the lowest end EVs especially given the | low average speeds and constant stop-and-go with regen | braking. | | Sure there are routes that would be unsuited for EV right | now, but it should be closer to 90/10 than 10/90. | Ekaros wrote: | Probably a mix would make most sense. In shorter routes | electric with capacity to charge during downtimes makes | sense. For very long ones gas isn't bad option. | babypuncher wrote: | They are adopting a mix, looking to inject 5,000 EVs into | their fleet by sometime next year. | SllX wrote: | Not that weird when you consider that purchasing EVs also means | purchasing _and_ deploying the infrastructure to charge them. | That's not a small operation for a service area that includes | every single address in the United States of America. | TheHypnotist wrote: | My area's utility has the funding to place them all over the | state. This would have been a good opportunity to cooperate | and pilot the system here. | colechristensen wrote: | There would also be a considerable infrastructure charge at | every post office and practical considerations of being able to | supply adequate materials to actually build all of the mail | trucks... on top of that batteries which will degrade, | especially faster as some mail vehicles will be used > 100 | miles a day. | | I think it's still fair at this point to think conversion of an | enormous fleet of vehicles might not yet be the pragmatic | choice. | ars wrote: | Seems to be a money thing - anyone know how much gas vs electric | costs for postal vehicles? | | This https://about.usps.com/newsroom/national- | releases/2021/0223-... gives no details. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-02-23 23:00 UTC)