[HN Gopher] Psychiatry and politicians: the 'hubris syndrome' (2... ___________________________________________________________________ Psychiatry and politicians: the 'hubris syndrome' (2018) Author : jka Score : 59 points Date : 2022-02-26 08:43 UTC (14 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.cambridge.org) (TXT) w3m dump (www.cambridge.org) | known wrote: | T-A wrote: | The mention of physical health reminded me of this story, which | briefly flared up a couple of years ago: | | https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/11/6/kremlin-spokesman-d... | | Even common painkillers can have bad effects on mental health: | | https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/news/20180206/do-otc-pai... | brnaftr361 wrote: | What is the first step in assuming a power role? I think in terms | of leadership you've got to somehow address the span of | authority. Even having a few people under limited authority is a | pretty substantial undertaking. But having counts in the tens of | thousands and having considerable power? I don't think there is a | way to reconcile that without detachment of one sort or another. | I know if I were in that sort of position, nothing would get done | lest some injury to even a single individual be precipitated, | thus making me morally culpable in their hurt. | | It's funny, but most of the senior staff ripe for promotion that | I've had the pleasures of interacting with were _always_ | disinterested in moving "up" to a leadership position. I think | most people have an intuitive sense of the _real | responsibilities_ that one has to engage with. So the idea that | these people have some underlying pathology I don 't think is too | far from the mark. I've also considered the concept of pathogenic | careers, and the assumption of particular frameworks of | justification that need erected to assume certain roles. For | instance a surgeon takes life and death into their hands every | day, how they reconcile the high-stakes, the successes and the | failures, as well as the known- and unknown in the performance of | their duties may contribute to a conditioned pathology. I suspect | CEOs and politicians are no different. Of course this is all | speculative. | tgv wrote: | This | | > The first example of Kennedy's lack of political skill was the | failed attempt to destabilise Fidel Castro in Cuba. | | is presented without any evidence. The 'syndrome' itself is based | on highly biased, out of context judgement of third party | observations. Perhaps they should look up the classical concept | "projection." | wuschel wrote: | Interesting read, especially now that long term deficient | political activities show their symptoms in the form of Brexit, | Ukraine, etc. | | Basically, look out for these clinical features of the hubris | syndrome when it comes to people in positions of leadership and | power: | | 1/ sees the world as a place for self-glorification through the | use of power | | 2/ has a tendency to take action primarily to enhance personal | image | | 3/ shows disproportionate concern for image and presentation | | 4/ exhibits messianic zeal and exaltation in speech | | 5/ conflates self with nation or organisation | | 6/ uses the royal 'we' in conversations | | 7/ shows excessive self-confidence | | 8/ manifestly has contempt for others | | 9/ shows accountability only to a higher court (history or God) | | 10/ displays the unshakable belief that he will be vindicated in | that court | | 11/ loses contact with reality | | 12/ resorts to restlessness and impulsive actions | | 13/ allows moral rectitude to obviate consideration of | practicality, cost or outcome, and | | 14/ displays incompetence with disregard for the nuts and bolts | of policy-making. | | Don't vote for them. Remove them from power. | refurb wrote: | A number of these seem to nicely summarize a number of social | media influencers. | netizen-936824 wrote: | Sounds like most US politicians. Especially Republicans | refurb wrote: | "Yes we can" | | Pretty sure that's the royal "we" | dane-pgp wrote: | There's a difference between wanting people in the country | to work together for a shared goal, and literally referring | to yourself with the pronoun "we". | | > "All Mike Pence has to do is send it back to the states | to recertify, and we become president." | | https://www.businessinsider.com/judge-rules-trump-can-be- | sue... | bilbo0s wrote: | It's pretty much all politicians. Not only American | politicians. | antattack wrote: | It seems to me that government needs more checks and balances | so people can recall their candidates if they misrepresented | themselves or their intentions. | bilbo0s wrote: | We can recall our leaders. (At least in the US we can.) | | Of course, you have to get enough people to _agree_ with you | that the leader should be recalled. You can 't recall him/her | because _you_ want to recall him /her. You can only recall a | leader if _we_ want to recall him /her. | johnsimer wrote: | Can anyone explain what's wrong with using the royal "we" in | conversations? | daniel-cussen wrote: | Wework for example. Adam Neumann was always about "we". | | So what it means at a basic level is speaking on behalf of a | group that is united against the opposing "I", basically a | team or gang versus an individual. | imranhou wrote: | I think he is talking about him/her referring to his/her self | (singular), using "we". | matthewmorgan wrote: | Complete drivel to compare the invasion of Ukraine to brexit | dane-pgp wrote: | Do you not see the consistent psychology behind: | | * Make America Great Again - we've been cheated by the | globalists | | * Make Britain Great Again - we've been cheated by the EU | | * Make Russia Great Again - we've been cheated by the West | | * Make Germany Great Again - we've been cheated by the Jews | | ? | refurb wrote: | I dont see the connection between self-determination and | invading another sovereign country? | wuschel wrote: | If the politician makes a decision in his interest but to | the detriment of his people, one could very well make | they connection. A simple example is distraction from | critical domestic problems the political party/politician | is not able,ready or willing to solve by focusing on | international politics. | dane-pgp wrote: | You're absolutely right that there is an enormous | difference in the policies implemented by the various | governments, I'm just saying that the policies were | partially driven by a common psychology. | bobthechef wrote: | Pathologizing your political opponents is a two way | street[0]. Your opponent might be insane, yes, but it can | also be all too easily deployed to dismiss your political | opponents and a lost opportunity to learn something, if | not in the substance of what they're claiming, then at | least about the causes. Even assuming that the various | conspiracy theories peddled by both the Left and the | Right are bogus (and they are), the fact remains that | their exists widespread, politically useful grievance | that makes them attractive to many people. If you just | say "oh, they're all just mentally ill", you haven't | learned anything, even if the grievance is simply a | manifestation of envy and ressentiment. Even if they are | all mentally ill, you haven't learned _why_ they 're all | insane. Maybe you don't care, and that's fine, but | someone has to care because unlike the occasional | neighborhood eccentric, these things are political | gunpowder. So first we debate, and only later do we | embark on something like psychoanalysis. | | W.r.t. Putin, I think that flippantly accusing him of | mental illness is lazy and shows a lack of political | imagination. That's only a conclusion you reach after | you've exhausted all other options. Historically, | Americans have been notoriously bad at understanding | Russian political motives and the Russian political mind. | If you contextualize what's happening in the geopolitical | context, it's unclear, at least to me, that what Putin is | doing is through-and-through insane. All evil is insane | in the final analysis, but in the immediate sense, there | may be a method to the madness. If you don't know the | aim, and you don't know the constraints, you can't really | understand the means. I'm not interested in cocktail | party conjecturing or the pretense of knowledge. | | [0] https://americanmind.org/salvo/woke-ideology-is-a- | psychologi... | dane-pgp wrote: | For what it's worth, I generally agree with what you're | saying here (and I vouched for your comment, because I | thought it was an insightful contribution to the | discussion). | | I should clarify, though, that the "psychology" I am | talking about applies more to the supporters of these | political movements than to the politicians who lead | them. It's completely possible for an intelligent | manipulator to spout some narrative that appeals to the | public's psychology, without them believing it | themselves. | | Your point still stands, though, that it's not enough to | simply say "the leader is a liar, and their supporters | are mad", because that reductionist framing is more | likely to shut down any attempts at further understanding | than to open the door to learning that there might be | legitimate grievances that are leading to this "madness". | | As for Putin, I think he is dangerously sane, but that's | not to say that a psychoanalysis wouldn't reveal a | helpful understanding of his motivations and weaknesses. | For example, it seems that he spent his early life | believing in (and working for) the greatness of his | country which was destined to conquer the world (as if it | were a game of chess played out across a world map), only | to watch helplessly as that was all ripped away from him | by the West. That could be psychologically devastating | and create a trauma that has stayed with him for his | whole life. I could well imagine that from his | perspective, if he doesn't take back control of Ukraine, | his whole life has been for nothing. | krona wrote: | You would have to contextualise a slogan like _Make America | Great Again_ to give it a negative connotation; on its face | it is objectively normatively positive. | | The Brexit slogan was _Take back control_. Again, | normatively positive. | | Same for _Black Lives Matter_. | | The psychology behind successful political slogans is that | people are generally in favour of positive things. | dane-pgp wrote: | > The psychology behind successful political slogans is | that people are generally in favour of positive things. | | Are there any examples of negative political slogans? | "Don't vote for us, we're losers"? | | I don't think it's very informative to point out that | these slogans are positive. What's more informative is | that the messaging came with an idea of an insidious | enemy, and of betrayal, and a desire to return to a | former, previously great, and deserved status. | | For what it's worth, I don't think "Black Lives Matter" | had those same connotations. | ramphastidae wrote: | Mussolini's party slogan was "Believe, obey, fight." I | don't know if that's negative but it doesn't feel | positive. | ben_w wrote: | > For what it's worth, I don't think "Black Lives Matter" | had those same connotations. | | Really? The impression I had[0] was that this slogan was | a cry for equality in the eyes of a police force which | acted as though black lives did not matter -- the | mistreatment being very much insidious, very much a | betrayal of "protect and serve", and while I wouldn't | call the BLM slogan itself it a "return to a former, | previously great" status, it is clearly a desire to have | a _deserved_ status (of having one's life matter). | | [0] caveat: I'm caucasian British, the closest I got to | this was having an American partner a few years ago | krapp wrote: | Your interpretation is correct. Unfortunately, as with | everything else to do with Black and progressive activism | in the US, the right wing has been very successful at bad | faith redefinition of terms. | nopenopenopeno wrote: | The purpose of the slogan was to preempt class war with | race war. History has and will continue to confirm this. | tiahura wrote: | When Mario Cuomo ran against Ed Koch his slogan was "Vote | for Cuomo, not the homo." | hprotagonist wrote: | _The Orders are composed of persons all hung up on authority, | security and control; i.e., they are blinded by the Aneristic | Illusion. They do not know that they belong to Orders of | Discordia. But we know. | | - The Military Order of THE KNIGHTS OF THE FIVE SIDED TEMPLE. | This is for all the soldiers and bureaucrats of the world. | | - The Political Order of THE PARTY FOR WAR ON EVIL. This is | reserved for lawmakers, censors, and like ilk. | | - The Academic Order of THE HEMLOCK FELLOWSHIP. They commonly | inhabit schools and universities, and dominate many of them. | | - The Social Order of THE CITIZENS COMMITTEE FOR CONCERNED | CITIZENS. This is mostly a grass-roots version of the more | professional military, political, academic and sacred Orders. | | - The Sacred Order of THE DEFAMATION LEAGUE. Not much is known | about the D.L., but they are very ancient and quite possibly | were founded by Greyface himself. It is known that they now | have absolute domination over all organized churches in the | world. It is also believed that they have been costuming | cabbages and passing them off as human beings. | | A person belonging to one or more Order is just as likely to | carry a flag of the counter-establishment as the flag of the | establishment-- just as long as it is a flag. | | Don't let THEM immanentize the Eschaton._ | rtkaratekid wrote: | If, like me, you had no idea what this was... | | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principia_Discordia | chiefalchemist wrote: | > The hubris syndrome has great appeal to psychiatrists, partly | because it is a new concept. | | New? That's hard to believe that its taken this long to construct | such a syndrome. | | In any case, while hubris might be an issue for some (minority?), | being generally disconnected from those they serve seems to be | the current state of leadership. | | Look at Congress, all or nearly all are millionaires. CEOs and | other C Level executives are paid record amounts (as a ratio of | what staff compensation). Those in charge of The Fed? When was | the last time any of them rubbed elbows with the victims of their | system? | | Hubris is a problem, and evidently a new one. But ignorance is | more common and far more damaging. | steve76 wrote: | someweirdperson wrote: | I don't have any personal experience with politicians. | | But it all sounds very familiar when reading it as "Psychiatry | and Architects (or any other technical persons voted into power | by management)". | jackcosgrove wrote: | I have some experience. During college I had an internship with | a county planning agency. I was staffing the welcome table | where they hand out nametags at a conference the agency was | sponsoring. | | A smartly dressed woman walked up to me and said nothing. I | welcomed her and asked what her name was so I could give her a | nametag. She gave me a weird look, then stepped back and | conferred with what looked like a retinue. I heard her say, | "Who is that there?" (referring to me) "What is going on here?" | | My supervisor rushed up and saved the day, handing her the | appropriate nametag and explaining that I was an intern. Turns | out she was some elected county official. Of course I should | have known her name. | | This was a county, the little leagues. | throwawy5777 wrote: | tiahura wrote: | Yes and no. County politics and politicians can be a little | unintuitive. Because there's almost no reporting of things | that get done by county government - and there's so little | accountability, compared to city state and fed, an | unbelievable amount of corruption and patronage occurs. | Therefore personal connections are more important and ego | plays a disproportionate role (where the baseline is already | overinflated egos). | throwawy5777 wrote: | Interesting that two of the cases discussed mention a | prescription of amphetamines, which they describe as harmful. Did | these differ substantially to the doses we prescribe for ADHD | nowadays? | CoastalCoder wrote: | FWIW, I have ADD and sometimes take (prescribed) Adderall, i.e. | amphetamine salts. | | They absolutely have an unwelcome impact on my mood and | thoughts. I judge the tradeoff to be worthwhile, but it's a | close call. | throwawy5777 wrote: | Me too, and also I think the trade-off worthwhile, which is | why I ask this question. I hope in the future people will | have found a better treatment for ADHD. Maybe they'll look | back at the medications currently used in a similar way as | this article does. | briHass wrote: | I would wager the amphetamine doses given in those 2 examples | were quite different than what is typically prescribed by | (responsible) Drs treating ADHD today. | | In Eden's case, it mentions that he was actually using | Dexamyl[1], which is actually a amphetamine mixed with a | barbituate. Though the dose isn't given, I'd imagine it was 'as | needed' and largely uncontrolled. Uppers + downers tends to | lead to bad results. | | In JFK's case, he was treated by Max Jacobson a.k.a. 'Dr | Feelgood'[2,3], and it wasn't just amphetamines; he made up | injections of all kinds of vitamins, steroids, and speed. | Again, it was 'as needed' and likely overdosed. Dr Jacobson | would ultimately lose his medical license. | | For ADHD, the maximum daily limit for amphetamine salts is 60mg | in adults, and the recommended dose for ADHD is no more than | 40mg/day. At those levels, there isn't a ton of evidence of | deleterious effects, certainly not psychosis, as long as sleep | isn't overly impacted. A carefully controlled max dose of | 40-60mg a day is a far cry from the days of 'poppin' bennies' | ad libitum. | | As a side note, one has to wonder if the last, and almost | certainly the current, US Presidents were/are prescribed | stimulants. President Trump speaks for himself, but even | President Biden seems to range widely in his level of energy | and lucidity. With a job so important, where appearances | matter, and with a team of doctors that can give you whatever | they want, I think it would be naive to think they don't write | Adderall scripts. | | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dexamyl [2] | https://www.irishcentral.com/roots/history/john-f-kennedy-ma... | [3] https://www.historynet.com/jack-kennedy-dr-feelgood/ | amanaplanacanal wrote: | I don't have an answer to your question, but I will point out | that the effects of stimulants on someone with adhd are | different from the effects they have on a neurotypical person. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-02-26 23:01 UTC)