[HN Gopher] Trapped in Silicon Valley's hidden caste system
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Trapped in Silicon Valley's hidden caste system
Author : Brajeshwar
Score : 113 points
Date : 2022-03-01 15:12 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.wired.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.wired.com)
| vmception wrote:
| One day it occurred to me that I can tell if someone is from
| India, but that I'd never considered to notice more nuances than
| that, for such a big country with so many groups of people.
|
| I have just begun to notice, but I have no idea about the
| identity politics. I recall in college that some of my friends
| from India would fawn over certain last names, and I felt it was
| something to do with the caste system, but I had concluded that
| the people I was around in Universities and in the workforce were
| mostly from a level of privilege that it wouldn't be possible to
| learn more. I always found Indian nationalism to be strange,
| where so many people would interject that everything is perfect.
| Makes it easier for me to avoid my own US nationalism, because it
| must be just as comical to others.
|
| In this article it mentions Dalit. How many people from that
| group would be in Silicon Valley, is it impossible to know since
| it is insensitive to ask and disastrous for them if people did
| know?
|
| Seems like there is a potential for solidarity amongst more vocal
| groups pushing for representation.
| [deleted]
| dang wrote:
| Past related threads. I think there have been others.
|
| _How Big Tech Is Importing India's Caste Legacy to Silicon
| Valley_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26435117 - March
| 2021 (195 comments)
|
| _Caste discrimination in some of Silicon Valley 's richest tech
| companies_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24952698 - Oct
| 2020 (322 comments)
|
| _How India 's ancient caste system is ruining lives in Silicon
| Valley_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24555492 - Sept
| 2020 (47 comments)
|
| _Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24552047 - Sept 2020 (613
| comments)
|
| _Silicon Valley Has a Caste Discrimination Problem_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24065132 - Aug 2020 (14
| comments)
|
| _California sues Cisco alleging discrimination based on India's
| caste system_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23798922 -
| July 2020 (56 comments)
|
| _California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian
| employee 's caste_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23697083 - July 2020 (592
| comments)
| bishamsingh wrote:
| birdyrooster wrote:
| A bit off topic but, separate from Indian culture, the United
| States has a hidden caste system too that flows from antiquity
| and is given texture through American slavery. If your family was
| a slave or you look like a slave you are, unconscious in the
| minds of most, systemically bottom caste here.
|
| Sorry if it is an unsatisfying critique of America but its
| obvious. Go look at the wealth data, look who is thriving and has
| net worth or success in business.
| gerdesj wrote:
| This is waaaay off topic.
|
| Carry down that line of thought and you might fall into all
| sorts of nonsense. Note things like Pope Gregory (n?) saw a
| pair of slaves in a market in Rome in the n00s. These two were
| picked up from somewhere that would eventually become part of
| England/GB. He was told they were Angles. The story goes he
| quipped that they were "surely Angels" due to their physique
| and long blonde hair. Part of England is known as Anglia still
| and of course England itself is "Angleland".
|
| It seems a bit odd that, that anecdote and play on words
| survives a good 1500 years during which time English has gone
| through three major stages (old/middle/modern). However you can
| easily posit from that story that Britons were also enslaved,
| if you very carefully define "Briton"!
|
| Anyway, my point is that you can't really use terms like
| american slavery. History can't be stuffed into boxes like that
| with pejorative terms scattered like confetti.
|
| The caste system being discussed here is nominally an indian
| sub continent thing and way older in origin than the slavery
| employed around C17th onwards with the horrendous triangle of
| trade.
| birdyrooster wrote:
| Yes off topic, and I edited my comment to reflect this.
| American slavery is a distinct type of slavery because of the
| geography and people involved. That is all I was saying.
| johntiger1 wrote:
| from my understanding, the caste system is thousands of years
| old (in fact one of the reason islam was welcomed and later
| sikh religion developed). are you sure that american slavery
| was the origin?
| vmception wrote:
| They are talking about the US distinctly. The US caste
| system, which has morphed primarily into a class system as
| the laws no longer explicitly single groups out, despite the
| correlations of effects that remain.
| Sebguer wrote:
| They're not implying that the Indian caste system originated
| in American slavery, they're stating that America also has a
| caste system.
| gerdesj wrote:
| Perhaps class system is a better term. The terms nearly
| mean the same thing but not quite. I think the caste system
| is closer in origin to the societal structure in the feudal
| system that was common in medieval Europe, than the modern
| class system.
| [deleted]
| pinephoneguy wrote:
| Has vs had. I suppose you could say the races that were former
| slaves are now given an artificial advantage but I wouldn't go
| so far as to call it a caste system.
| simmanian wrote:
| I am not from India but I would like to be connected to these
| groups. Any idea how I can reach out?
|
| edit: I guess this is as good as it gets
| https://ambedkarinternationalcenter.org/join-the-mission/aic...
| rhapsodic wrote:
| yrgulation wrote:
| The caste system is so deeply entrenched in the culture of those
| abused by it that even centuries after leaving india they cant
| leave it behind.
|
| Romania has a considerable group of such people. The Gipsy (also
| know as Romani) are an Indian people that are thought to have
| been part of a caste and fled India hundreds of years ago. To
| this day they cant lift themselves up, and frankly the government
| of Romania is not doing much at all. To call it an injustice it
| would he an understatement.
| zxienin wrote:
| I am from "upper caste". My experience might not be commonly
| heard perspective. In 10th grade of schooling, my parents changed
| my lastname to avoid that folks figure out the caste. Due to
| affirmative action (aka reservation) on steroids, upper caste
| were losing opportunities. My parents wanted to avoid that I lose
| out on selection, promotions.., where subjective discretion was
| involved.
|
| I do not recall ever seeing casteism at workplace. So reading
| these reports have been surprising to me, since these are not
| subtle, but rampant. I can only attribute it to my privilege
| driven echo chamber. Or the fact that I never worked in US. (only
| briefly in India).
|
| What I read in media disgusts me. I am very motivated to make
| sure nothing like this happens in my zone of control / influence,
| at work.
|
| I know casteism is deeply rooted in Indian society. I do not
| relate with it. Many folks I know, don't either. On optimistic
| side, I hope that means with newer generations, casteism will
| dilute and wither away.
| johntiger1 wrote:
| as a complete outsider to the caste system, say i was american-
| born or otherwise "white-washed". would I still be subject to
| this system?
| sparky_ wrote:
| Fellow outsider here. Got curious and did some searching; would
| love to hear from some real Indian folks to confirm or deny
| this line of reasoning.
|
| As non-Indians, it seems we exist outside the system, which
| could be ambiguously interpreted to either have no connotation
| at all, or to exist at the bottom of the social strata. [1]
|
| Anecdotally, the kind of treatment you'll get in practice
| depends a lot more on your race and national origin. [2]
|
| 1: https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/3898/what-
| caste... 2: https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/let-s-
| talk-about-r...
| akvadrako wrote:
| So, assuming there is a hierarchy and Indian are not better
| than all other races, it seems the conclusion must be all
| societies have some kind of caste system, it's just we don't
| see it since we don't look for that sort of thing?
| UltraViolence wrote:
| It took hundreds of years for the tribal system to become fully
| abolished in North-Western Europe and I suspect it will take a
| similar amount of time before the caste system is eradicated.
| throwaway_dcnt wrote:
| The reason for my current user name here at hn was this exact
| form of racism. It is the first post I made when I created this
| throwaway. I was assured that my experience was unique and not
| widespread. I am both sad and happy to see this, sad because it
| exists, happy because it is getting some attention here at HN.
|
| I would like to take this opportunity to point out that everyone
| of us needs to be vigilant about this type of racism. One thing I
| recommend to my hiring managers is to not allow people from
| frictioned backgrounds to manage and interview people from the
| other side. Example problematic pairs for candidates/interviewers
| (not including the cast situation) include: Indians and
| Pakistanis, Serbians and Bosnians, Greeks and Turks, Chinese and
| Japanese.
|
| One way I solve this is by introducing an independent
| observer/participant when situations like this emerge. This is
| costly but it has really worked to not only address this problem
| but also created an amazing diversity in my teams because it
| takes care of some of the implicit bias we all have to some
| degree.
| winterplace wrote:
| Is there a way to privately message you?
| aletzo wrote:
| I'm sorry, but can you please elaborate a bit more on Greeks
| and Turks?
|
| I happen to be Greek and have worked with 2 Turkish colleagues
| without any issues. On top of that, during my many travels
| across Europe, Turks (along with other Balkan nationalities)
| are by far the most welcoming people I meet once they learn
| that I come from Greece and I befriended a few of them.
|
| Do you have any different experiences to share?
| User23 wrote:
| I'm under the impression some people are still upset over
| Cypress.
| franklampard wrote:
| > Chinese and Japanese
|
| When I interviewed last time; the only company i did not make
| through phone screen was by a Japanese interviewer. I gave a
| three viable solutions to an easy question. Had no idea why I
| failed but probably because of racism
| simmanian wrote:
| It's definitely possible that there were other factors in
| play. I hope you see the danger or irony of automatically
| assuming that the Japanese interviewer rejected you because
| of their racial bias.
| jewayne wrote:
| I hope you see the danger or irony of stigmatizing the
| discussion of bias.
| avalys wrote:
| The solution you propose is arguably just as bad and I suspect
| it might be illegal in the US. If I am a qualified manager or
| tech lead, and there is an opportunity to lead a new project, I
| would be furious to learn that I was passed over for the
| opportunity because someone believed I was ethnically
| incompatible with one of the people on the team.
| rednerrus wrote:
| The comment was about not allowing them in the interviewing
| process.
| avalys wrote:
| ...it says "manage and interview"?
| oh_sigh wrote:
| If interviewing is considered a normal job function, isn't
| not allowing certain people to interview certain people a
| violation of EEO laws by discriminating based on a
| protected class(national origin)? Unless you have some
| specific knowledge that an employee just can't handle
| people of nationality X, I would be very hesitant to
| institute OP's advice, at least in the US.
| [deleted]
| bob66 wrote:
| txcan wrote:
| Only to be bogged down by a level higher "country-of-birth" based
| discrimination system for GreenCards in the US.
| pinephoneguy wrote:
| Countries have borders, we invest a lot of money in our
| children and people and would like a return on that investment.
| In order for that to be possible we have to reject the people
| who would abuse the system.
| hemantv wrote:
| This is all made up, news article created to make you angry.
| Click bait.
|
| I have been in valley for 9 years. Never experienced any of it.
|
| Does Indian have higher standards for other Indian sure, but it's
| never about caste.
| pinephoneguy wrote:
| Having different standards for different races (especially your
| own race) is racist.
| jonny_eh wrote:
| Nobody in America has ever been racist to me, therefore racism
| doesn't exist.
| mdns33 wrote:
| zozbot234 wrote:
| It's so disappointing to see in the article that caste
| discrimination is still being blamed by some on the religion of
| Hinduism. There's no dharmic status whatsoever for "caste" in the
| commonplace sense. The Vedas occasionally talk about something
| that gets misinterpreted as caste, but it's very clear from the
| texts that they're talking about individual callings and
| aptitudes, and not any sort of immutable status. The latter were
| merely a historically contingent development within Indian
| society, very similar to those that were leading towards
| feudalism and serfdom in the West.
| simmanian wrote:
| I think it's fair to say that the caste system is greatly
| influenced by the flavor of reincarnation in hinduism. the
| buddha himself set out to seek enlightenment and free himself
| from suffering when he saw that so many people from the lower
| castes are suffering. it eventually led him to reject hinduism
| and teach that nobody suffers in this life because of something
| that happened in "past" lives (in fact, he almost categorically
| rejected reincarnation as a process where individuals are born
| again and again, something many buddhists today do not
| understand), that everyone can attain true freedom and
| happiness. I assume this teaching is why Ambedkar came to
| reject hinduism and embrace buddhism as shown in the article.
| fdgsdfogijq wrote:
| In a well known big tech company (FAANG), I have seen many many
| examples of a whole layer of management from the same caste. So
| like under one director, every senior manager will have been from
| the same part of India. Sometimes this will extend to another
| layer of managers below them. Behind the scenes, there is a
| strong communication network that is often not caught or shown in
| org charts. This will include high ranking engineers and managers
| from sister organizations.
|
| It usually doesnt extend beyond that, since HR will be all over
| it. Often they will even go out of their way not to hire Indians
| as their directs, so as to deny any discrimination based hiring.
| But its rampant.
| Bhilai wrote:
| Let me guess, its Amazon?
| nraynaud wrote:
| I can't imagine the crazy headache for management, like are you
| going to ask your Indian teamates their cast when you suspect
| there is foul play in the team?
| rootusrootus wrote:
| In my experience, the answer is always some form of "there are
| no castes any more." They know that most non-Indians lack the
| ability to prove otherwise, we can't even detect it.
| jmyeet wrote:
| It's crazy to me to see people saying "this doesn't exist because
| I've never seen it". Here's a good rule to live by: privilege is
| invisible to those who have it. Just think about that.
|
| I'm not Indian so can't speak to that experience but
| discrimination masquerading as "culture fit" is just as rampant
| in Silicon Valley as it is in the rest of the US. This includes
| racism, ageism, misogyny and classism. If you don't think
| MIT/Stanford grads in their mid 20s at Big Tech companies have
| more doors open to them you're crazy.
|
| There is a tendency in the West to view all minorities as somehow
| being the same. Like all Africans are somehow viewed the same in
| many ways despite their being significant cultural, religious and
| language differences that go back centuries. The same is true in
| Asia (eg a lot of Chinese in Malaysia face significant
| discrimination such that they end up going to university overseas
| because they can't locally).
|
| So a deeply ingrained caste system like India's I can totally
| believe doesn't magically disappear because those raised in that
| system now happen to live and work in the United States.
| belval wrote:
| To Indian commenters on HN, how much of that is true? Do you feel
| threatened when a coworker asks about where you are from? It's
| something I do ask from time to time (not during interviews
| obviously, but during lunch for example) out of pure curiosity.
| Should I stop?
|
| I guess that I should explicitly add that I am not from India.
| Cross-cultural communications can be a bit difficult at times and
| I'd rather not make blunders like that.
| cscurmudgeon wrote:
| A lot of it is FUD.
|
| California withdrew it's Cisco case but you wont' see any
| coverage of that here.
|
| https://thewire.in/caste/california-drops-caste-discriminati...
|
| I am from India and have been in the US for more than a decade.
|
| I come from a low caste. The only folks who have asked about my
| caste and asked if I am from a higher caste are white Americans
| due to my vegetarianism (voluntary for ethical reasons).
|
| > Do you feel threatened when a coworker asks about where you
| are from?
|
| No, not at all.
|
| But I did get upset when my PhD advisor (a white American)
| wanted to know if I was from the priestly class.
|
| There is definitely casteism in India, but I have not seen it
| in Silicon Valley.
|
| Casteism is there in India and is unfortunately widespread but
| steadily disappearing. India's PM and President are from lower
| castes but you won't see coverage of that in Western news.
| Bhilai wrote:
| Who is spreading the FUD and why?
| dhanvantharim1 wrote:
| Its possible some of it is true, I know well educated brahmin
| acquaintances who have outright said they are superior. I look
| like a brahmin person and they tend to let their guard down
| around me, But no one has ever asked me about my caste (Maybe
| because they assume my caste based on how I look). At the same
| time there are lots frivolous lawsuits from the groups
| mentioned in this article so its hard to say.
| fhrow4484 wrote:
| > I look like a brahmin person
|
| > they assume my caste based on how I look
|
| I'm curious in this comment, are you dressing up a certain
| way that is typical of brahmin, or are there some other
| characteristics that makes you look brahmin?
| Bhilai wrote:
| A lot of stuff mentioned in the article is true. I would even
| go ahead (at peril being downvoted by Indian patriots) that
| India is a deeply racist country. My parents, educated upper
| middle class working folks use to 'educate' me to not get
| married outside our caste and such. Caste system is deeply
| rooted in India and you can pretty much read about it from lots
| of sources online. India has a lot of right provisions (like
| the reservation system for SC/ST/OBC akin to affirmative action
| type of stuff in US if I am not mistaken) but in a typical
| fashion those provisions are either not applied properly or are
| abused by people in such categories. India is also a deeply
| poor country with a history of systemic racism so its not
| surprising some of the beliefs have landed in silicon valley
| too.
|
| > Do you feel threatened when a coworker asks about where you
| are from? It's something I do ask from time to time (not during
| interviews obviously, but during lunch for example) out of pure
| curiosity. Should I stop?
|
| I think its a fair question. Its not as much about where a
| person is from but "what caste they belong to" type of stuff
| that might be offensive.
| wincy wrote:
| Okay so curious, I have a South Indian neighbor who is
| Muslim. I assume Muslims are just a different thing outside
| of the caste system, despite people saying caste is not
| rooted in Hinduism? (I'm not saying it is, just curious how
| an Indian might view their Muslim neighbors).
| belval wrote:
| Seems to exist for Indian muslims as well: https://en.wikip
| edia.org/wiki/Caste_system_among_South_Asian...
| lisper wrote:
| It would never even occur to me to ask someone what caste
| they were from, not just in Silicon Valley where I happen to
| live, but anywhere in the U.S. Seriously, who does that?
| belval wrote:
| Someone who doesn't understand that it's taboo and is
| curious of a system that existed for 3000 years? I
| understand that it's a painful heritage for some but to an
| outsider this seems akin to genealogy for example.
| [deleted]
| samizdette wrote:
| I grew up around a lot of Indian people, and I have
| definitely had the curiosity to know how to ask, but at the
| same time known that it would be taboo. I can only guess
| from their wealth or their last names.
| AdmiralAsshat wrote:
| It actually _does_ occur to me, mostly because I 'm curious
| if all of my coworkers are of Brahmin caste. It doesn't
| matter to me personally, but obviously it would be of
| interest if all of the people in the Managerial or Lead
| roles are from a certain caste, while all of the lower-
| level Devs are in another.
| JoeAltmaier wrote:
| Couldn't that be a follow-on effect from a lifetime of
| advantages in education and opportunity costs? It's not
| necessary to imagine a special Brahmin-loving company
| administration.
| AdmiralAsshat wrote:
| Oh, definitely. It could be neither intentional nor
| malicious. But it would still be interesting to know.
| User23 wrote:
| It's also a general pattern that follows from human
| assortative mating. Then add to that inheritance laws and
| over the centuries the upper classes can acquire serious
| cumulative advantages. Of course it occasionally
| backfires, such as in the case of Habsburg inbreeding.
| User23 wrote:
| I worked at a big tech company where you could, with rare
| exceptions, reliably estimate a South Asian employee's
| place in the org chart from skin tone. I don't know how
| well that correlates to caste, but I imagine it does to
| at least some degree.
| rajeshp1986 wrote:
| I don't find any truth in it at all not especially in Silicon
| Valley. These articles are a coerced effort to bring up the
| caste divide from India into US and divide the Indian diaspora.
| simmanian wrote:
| The article mentions there were hundreds of people who joined
| a Zoom call to give testimonies. In your view, is the author
| exaggerating?
| crate_barre wrote:
| It could be possible they are projecting the home grown
| issue of India onto America. Racism is traumatic, and can
| lead to ptsd. If you dealt with it, you will amplify it
| wherever you even think it could exist, eg 'I already know
| what you think about me' as an internal thought. Imagine if
| your whole life you were looked at as X, you will feel like
| X even if you are in an environment that may not be doing
| this to you.
|
| Severe defensiveness. Not trying to undermine testimony,
| but life is a spectrum. On the spectrum of all testimonies,
| there is without a doubt corroborating testimonies that are
| the result of trauma.
|
| I'll give an example. I'm an alcoholic. There are times my
| shame is so great that even in random stores where I go to
| buy some beer, I can feel eyes on me as if the whole world
| knows I'm an alcoholic. It's an intense feeling of guilt
| and shame. Other examples of this are imposter syndrome
| arising from being doubted. If you ever been doubted in any
| meaningful way, you can palpably feel the doubt on your
| skin in new situations - all from past trauma. But in
| reality, no one may be doubting you in these new
| situations.
| 12ian34 wrote:
| I'm Indian born with British nationality and I look Indian. It
| doesn't bother me if people ask me where I'm from - I am often
| curious about where others are from. It does, however, start to
| slightly grate if upon me responding with "I'm British", I am
| quizzed further with "But... where are you really from?" I hear
| this less nowadays, but it used to be common enough to
| "slightly grate", particularly from older, Caucasian Brits. Not
| everyone that is British/American is also Caucasian.
|
| I don't think you should stop asking people where they are
| from. But perhaps don't interrogate them (we get enough of that
| at airports), implying that they're obstructing their true
| origin from you. Also, tone matters, whether you like it or
| not. Saying "where are you from" can sound genuinely curious,
| but it can easily sound disgusted and derogatory.
|
| On any implied caste system, I can speak for the London tech
| startup world in which I've worked for several years. I've
| probably had dozens of (South) Asian colleagues and have never
| noticed the slightest hint of intra-Asian racism or classism.
| pinephoneguy wrote:
| Obviously your ancestors aren't British so there's something
| to the "where are you really from" question. I've been asked
| similar things even as a White American.
| 12ian34 wrote:
| Sure, but imagine the scenario that you're one of about 5
| non-white people in your entire school life, and the area
| you lived in has a similar demographic. You might feel
| generally more alienated from society. It might make it
| slightly harder to accept/understand your own identity, and
| being quizzed about it further (at times when you've
| already mentioned your nationality) is unlikely to help.
| camtarn wrote:
| It has rather different connotations in Britain.
|
| As far as I understand it from Americans I know, quite a
| few people in the US have a fascination with where their,
| and others', ancestors came from, so it _could_ be a fairly
| innocuous question. Pretty much any American I know would
| happily rattle off an answer of 'oh, I'm half Irish, a
| quarter French, and a quarter Spanish' or something
| similar.
|
| Here in the UK, even though we're also a nation of
| immigrants and invaders throughout history, there is much
| more of an attitude of 'people whose ancestors have always
| been here' ('British') versus 'immigrants' ('not really
| British') - even if the 'immigrants' are from families who
| have also been here for generations.
|
| So yeah. Generally 'but where are you _really_ from? '
| means something a little like 'I don't believe that you're
| one of us people who have always been here'. Whether that's
| malicious or just naive depends on the person, but I can
| imagine it gets pretty tiring.
|
| (I'm the son of a Chinese immigrant, but due to my other
| parent being Scottish I pass for white and thus I've never
| actually been asked the question!)
| User23 wrote:
| Ancestry is pretty common small talk for White Americans.
|
| I like learning more about people and the world so I like
| to ask people about where they're from. The immigrants I've
| spoken to are proud of their heritage and don't take
| offense. I have noticed though that their descendants can
| take offense, perhaps because they take it as implying
| they're somehow inauthentic. All that's required is a
| little delicacy. Instead of asking "where are you really
| from" instead ask something like "it sounds like your
| family has a really interesting story, would you like to
| tell me about it?"
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