[HN Gopher] GE won't let me use convection roast on my new oven ... ___________________________________________________________________ GE won't let me use convection roast on my new oven without connecting to WiFi Author : ilamont Score : 255 points Date : 2022-03-05 18:02 UTC (4 hours ago) (HTM) web link (twitter.com) (TXT) w3m dump (twitter.com) | oh_sigh wrote: | So if you click the "dismiss" button that is clearly labeled on | the message, you still can't use the oven? | capcor wrote: | bombcar wrote: | You can't use the "enhanced features" one of which apparently | is convection. | londons_explore wrote: | Usually this is because the product was rushed out of the circuit | board factory in China months ago with very barebones firmware. | | At the time this firmware was made, they probably hadn't even | _built_ the convection roast mode. | | It needs WiFi to update the firmware to one which hopefully does | perform as promised. After that you can probably disconnect the | WiFi again. | neoglow wrote: | I find it hard to call this a good argument for why this is. If | an appliance does not work out of the box, it is not finished | and not ready to ship to customers. | | The game industry does this, which is crap, but appliances are | people use to cook their meals and should not be unfinished. | | If you are right, it should be illegal. | londons_explore wrote: | In a world of investors demanding large percentage returns on | their investments, investing money in a programmer and then | not being able to sell a product to the public for a year | isn't financially viable. The time between doing the work and | getting paid must be minimized to get decent returns. | | That's why they develop the firmware while the hardware is on | the boat. | | With games and games consoles it's really noticeable - there | is no games console you can buy and use without a day-1 | update to make it functional. | shreddit wrote: | I'm starting to think people buy this stuff on purpose to get | attention on the internet by complaining about it. Why on earth | would i buy an oven with Wi-Fi and NOT think the manufacturer | would enforce the use of it... | rootusrootus wrote: | I think it is a legitimate complaint, even if they did post a | disclaimer in the ad that said you had to connect to WiFi for | full features. The market is having a tough time adjusting to | this tactic, which seems to work primarily by preying on | consumers that mostly do not know better. It's how we ended up | with all good quality large televisions being Smart TVs, with | no viable alternative. So people _should_ complain, publicly, | loudly, and demonstrate that a market exists for dumb devices. | SpicyLemonZest wrote: | This isn't at all a common expectation. I own five Wi-Fi | enabled devices, and only one (the Chromecast) makes any | attempt to enforce the use of it. | dtgriscom wrote: | Hypothetically, what would you like do with a Chromecast | without access to a network? | vetinari wrote: | Theoretically, Google Nest Mini (not Chromecast, I know, | but close) could be used as a bluetooth speaker. | | But I never managed to do it. Trying to enable pairing | always ends up with an error message. | SpicyLemonZest wrote: | There's no reason in principle that a Chromecast device | couldn't include some local storage to support an offline | viewing mode, although I do think they have a much stronger | case that it would be annoying and inconvenient to build | than for a GE oven. | sdoering wrote: | I recently wanted to buy a Bluetooth speaker for my mom. From | experience I was looking for a small Bose speaker. It wasn't | available. They recommended a Sonos alternative. | | I looked at the packaging. The price was only slightly below the | Bose "equivalent". | | At home I wanted to quickly connect the speaker to the computer | and was dumbstruck with the requirement to connect it to her | wireless and install the App to configure it. | | Also I had to agree to Sonos transmitting every app I used to | stream music, every song I heard, inclusive of the account names. | | This being sold without disclaimer or information that the device | is unusable without such a data striptease, app install and wlan | was quite irritating. I put the device back into the packaging, | brought it back to the store and ordered a Bose for her. | noja wrote: | Bose do (did?) the same thing, at least with their headphones. | Submits what you play to them by default. | tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: | Bose does something similar for their headphones unfortunately. | | Only some basic functionality is available without the app. | xadhominemx wrote: | Ok, so connect it to the wifi | teekert wrote: | It clearly says that the WiFi gives you the better experience ;) | | Btw you know what is also garbage? Scrolling through a twitter | thread in your browser and then halfway through reading some | sentence the whole screen goes black and it tells you to log in. | I literally had all I wanted to read on the screen already but I | couldn't finish it. | tgv wrote: | Use nitter.net. | voakbasda wrote: | At a former job, I worked on the low-level OS support for GE | devices. With that perspective, I would never buy one of their | products that contains any software, and I actively warn others | not to buy them. | | I worked on medical devices. Imagine how much worse the software | will be on devices that do not have that level of regulatory | scrutiny. | loonster wrote: | I have a GE Profile Induction Range. I both love and hate it. | Idiots that designed it used capacitive touch sensors to adjust | everything, including temperature of the burners. | | Think of using your phone with wet hands. Now imagine pan | frying something on the range and it splatters adjusting the | temperature to max. Need to have presence of mind to either dry | the sensor and turn off, or remove pan from range so it auto | turns off. | | Many manufacturers are doing the same thing and not just GE. | Someone is going to have their house burn down because of this | design decision. | bombcar wrote: | The "store wow factor" is getting out of control. Devices | that look great on the showroom floor but completely | impractical in use. | | Commercial market products sometimes avoid this but | commercial ovens usually aren't insulated at all. | [deleted] | ratg13 wrote: | GE is terrible at software, mostly due to their relationship | with Tata. | | You were working on actual GE devices though, these appliances | are GE in name only and slapped together by people who are even | less skilled. | malkia wrote: | My Toyota Venza's rear camera (2009) won't work, if the Map DVD | can't be loaded :(in my case it was just the DVD reader got | busted or something), but such critical part as rear camera | should not fail the Map Navigator it's not working (at least | nowadays there are alternatives you can swap easily - e.g. your | phone, not so easy with rear camera). | chasedehan wrote: | All this "smart" stuff kills me for basic appliances that no Wi- | Fi should ever be needed for. | | Example: I am in the process of building a custom home with the | ability to purchase whatever we want - when looking at ovens I | told the salesperson that I didn't want anything that has to | connect to the internet and the response was that I would need to | pick out something lower end because everything "high end" has | the connectivity now. Even dishwashers. | noAnswer wrote: | I recently had to install a new Netgear switch (GS724TPP) for a | customer. It won't let you use "advanced" features like VLAN | without registering it to a Cloud account first! (It was on a | construction side with unfinished internet.) I told my boss to | never buy Netgear again. | vetinari wrote: | I had a similar issue with Ubiquiti Unifi gear... trying to set | it up on a site about a week before Internet connection would | be available. | | The funny thing it was before it started to require cloud | accounts (UDM et al). Just without being able to connect to the | Internet, I could not complete the setup. | version_five wrote: | Like many people may have, my first though was why would you buy | a smart oven. He explains in a follow up that it was the only one | offered by his home builder. And this is an important and | overlooked point. | | A lot of garbage that no reasonable person would ever buy ends up | being weaseled in to new home sales because of deals the | companies cut with the builders, knowing nobody buys a house | based on whether they could have a user-scamming smart appliance | as the default. This kind of thing is insidious- I have no idea | what the solution is. | | Though as a afterthought, it reminds me a bit of the microsoft | antitrust stuff from 20+ years ago where they bundled IE as part | of destroying Netscape (im sure there is more subtlety than that, | that's the gist of what I remember) | [deleted] | root_axis wrote: | > _I have no idea what the solution is._ | | I think this is a case where legislation is a clear win. It | should be illegal for manufacturers to gate core functionality | of stationary appliances behind an internet connection. | Appliances already have a legal definition in the U.S. so it's | not a far fetched idea. | verisimi wrote: | I don't think this legislation will happen. | | As part of the technocratic agenda, it is integral that all | energy usage, water usage, etc is managed. For this to work, | there needs to be 'kill switches'. Like the one's Biden has | required new cars to have by 2025. | | Technocrats want to (micro) manage everyone's usage of | everything. The green agenda is the main sales pitch given | for this, but also look out for needing to log on to go | online because of ... terrorists, Russian internet attacks, | child abuse, etc. | | We are coding ourselves into dystopia. | omginternets wrote: | You're not wrong, but that's still what needs to happen. | SpicyLemonZest wrote: | Do... they? I follow a lot of people who I think you'd | consider supporters of technocracy, and I've never seen | anyone argue that it's good or important to have central | monitoring of people's oven usage. | verisimi wrote: | They want to monitor everything. Smart electricity meters | provide this functionality. | | Smart = spy. Eg, 'spy phones'. | SpicyLemonZest wrote: | Who is "they"? | calumetregion wrote: | Please read all of Neil Postman's work immediately. It's | much bigger than the oven. Thank you. | verisimi wrote: | And did you know that Elon Musk's grandfather was a top | technocrat in Canada? | | https://www.technocracy.news/shock-elon-musks- | grandfather-wa... | ConceptJunkie wrote: | Everyone is so gung ho about all the companies that are | throwing kill switches to Russia, and I'm just waiting for | those same companies to start doing the same thing to | anyone they want, for any reason. It's already happening. | bluefirebrand wrote: | Happened in Canada not even that long ago, and many | people cheered about that too. | hn_version_0023 wrote: | I'm curious about the specifics here. Could you provide a | link or summarize? Thank you kindly :) | _dain_ wrote: | They froze the accounts of people at the protests without | due process, and passed legislation to let them to it to | anyone who supported them "directly or indirectly". i.e. | carte blanche to send anyone into digital/financial exile | with no recourse. | | they repealed it soon after (I think), but the door is | open for them or any other government to do it again. | JaimeThompson wrote: | Where in the bill does it mention kill switches for cars? | | https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/117/hr3684/text | | https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house- | bill/3684... | crooked-v wrote: | That's probably intended to refer to 24220.c, but | overlooks that the "advanced drunk and impaired driving | prevention technology" prescribed for new cars 2025 and | later is described in terms that are functionally | identical to the driver awareness monitoring safety | systems that already exist in high-end new cars right | now. | MrYellowP wrote: | > Technocrats want to (micro) manage everyone's usage of | everything. | | You've spelt "Totalitarians" wrong. This is | totalitarianism. | | This isn't just micromanagement. This is about total | control. There's signs of totalitarianism all over the | place, including US-culture itself. How kids are being | raised. What they're being taught in school. How people | behave towards each other. | sdoering wrote: | Let me be the one to challenge your claim of the enforced | "Kill Switch" [0]. | | [0]: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/infrastructure-bill- | track-... | | Especially stating that this is an eco-agenda is imho | either misinformation or willfully partisan. | verisimi wrote: | Its a control agenda. | | The eco-agenda is the provided pretext that will mean we | willingly accept what is offered, in the name of saving | the planet. | MrYellowP wrote: | Save the planet for the children! | mistrial9 wrote: | "a control agenda" is one (landmine) label meant to | represent a set of complex interactions; this kind of | drastic oversimplification is daily fodder for politics, | but literally destructive to actual fact-based inquiry | leading to effective policy. Similar arguments have been | made regarding product safety and hygiene requirements by | "government" ! | mindslight wrote: | Except that such all-or-nothing logic is completely | appropriate when talking about security of computational | domains. Taking a device that is supposedly _mine_ and | configuring it to work against my interests repudiates | the idea that I am the owner of it. Rather than | representing my interests, it is now an agent of someone | else 's top-down policy. And if enough people modify | "their" devices to remove such restrictions, then there's | a good chance that even more systems of control get | deployed to prevent them from doing so. | tick_tock_tick wrote: | These seems to just confirm there point while using a lot | of weasel words to say it's not a "kill switch"....? | | Seriously I've not read such a round about stretch of a | justification in a long time. | aaron_m04 wrote: | I almost agree with you. | | The way Snopes presents it sounds like there is enough | wiggle room in the requirements for it to be a kill | switch: | | > Passively monitor the performance of a driver to | accurately identify whether they are impaired. | | > Prevent or limit operation if impairment is detected. | | > "Passively" detect whether the BAC of a driver is equal | to or higher than the legal limit. In such cases, the | system could "prevent or limit motor vehicle operation if | an impairment is detected." | BoorishBears wrote: | What???? | | Cars already have this! The base model Corolla has had | this for half a decade! Hyundai, MB, Nissan, all have | this across the board. | | If you're impaired for any reason (but mainly assured to | be drowsiness), it detects your behavior and gives you a | warning: | | https://www.autoguide.com/blog/wp- | content/uploads/2014/05/ti... | | https://di-uploads- | pod5.s3.amazonaws.com/sorgnissan/uploads/... | | https://www.autotrader.com/wp- | content/uploads/2020/08/RT_Dri... | | All the bill does is say now those systems should | escalate beyond a warning and be able to stop the | vehicle. | | These cars already have all the info they need, if you | "accidentally" drive like an intoxicated person, it's | going to be for a reason you need to be stopped over! | | Like a medical episode, dangerous lack of sleep, texting | and driving. | | It has literally nothing to do with being a remote kill | switch. | | Saying it's a remote kill switch is like saying the | mandatory backup camera system is as a mandatory | surveillance tool... | | It's such a huge leap you can't possibly make it in good | faith... | WalterBright wrote: | What if you have to drive like a maniac to get your | friend to the ER before he bleeds out? | | (Yes, a friend of mine told me how he had to do just | that. His friend died anyway, but it wasn't because the | car quit.) | | There are lots of cases where I might need to get the | most out of the car. | | Or maybe I just want to practice parallel parking. | Erratic back and forth driving and turning. | | So the car according to some algorithm decides to shut | down the car and strand me. The worst part is, I have no | idea what criteria that algorithm is using, so I have no | idea what line to not cross. | BoorishBears wrote: | None of this and I mean _none_ would trigger it. | | Not recommending this or proud/bragging/endorsing this, | but I drive fast. Too fast. 100 MPH for me is what most | people feel doing 5 over. | | I have *never* triggered these alerts _unless_ I was | genuinely tired. | | - | | You're talking about a system you don't have the faintest | clue about, instead of whipping out irrelevant fantasy | situations, ask how it works??? | | It will *not* react to intentional aggressive movement, | it reacts to clearly unintentionally movement that are | consistently late and low steering torque. | | This is not stuff you can replicate "practicing parallel | parking", or driving like you're re-enacting fast and | furious! | | I expect better of HN, you're jumping from a misleading | interpretation to FUD without taking a moment to learn. | vikingerik wrote: | If the remote kill switch exists, it's going to be | hijacked into government having the power to disable your | car. It starts innocuously, something that everyone will | agree with, like drunk drivers. Next will be drug | dealers, who could disagree with that? Then deadbeat | parents who owe child support. Then tax-owing deadbeats. | Then who knows what other classes of "undesirables". | | Proof? It already happened: driver licenses already went | through every one of those steps, getting hijacked way | beyond the original purpose of denoting that you had the | training to drive a car, into government-imposed threats | against all sorts of "bad" behavior. | | I don't trust _any_ expansion of government power in good | faith. | cmeacham98 wrote: | It's needlessly wordy, that I agree on, but here's the | important part: the actual text of the bill is "equipped | with advanced drunk and impaired driving prevention | technology" | | I guess one way you could implement that is a remote kill | switch, but at least when I first read the text I thought | it would just be something like a built-in breathalyzer | you had to pass before the car would let you drive. | | People claiming this is evidence of a kill switch are | hard extrapolating with (as far as I've seen) no evidence | that gets you from the bill's text to a kill switch. | pessimizer wrote: | That link doesn't even challenge the claim, it just fails | to completely verify it. | causality0 wrote: | Even the most reasonable people can't make the argument | when the direction is so wildly independent of reality. For | example, water usage limits on dishwashers that make people | run the cycle twice and end up using more water and more | electricity than the old ones. | recursive wrote: | I find dryers are particularly bad at this. Mine has 5 | levels of dry-ness. Even on "ultra dry" the clothes | usually come out damp. So I run "ultra dry" twice. Lol. | slavik81 wrote: | Have the exhaust vents for your building been cleaned | recently? That's exactly the behaviour you'd expect if | the exhaust system is clogged by lint. | dvtrn wrote: | I had a roommate who used to do this (thus sending our | utility bill up along with some other power wasting | habits), and I once asked them the question I'm about to | ask now: | | other than for moments when you plan on wearing something | as soon as it comes out of the dryer, what prevents one | from using the normal dry cycle, and then letting | whatever garments that don't get completely 100% dried- | air dry in the closet or up on hangers on a shower pole | or something? | hollerith wrote: | Mold will grow on damp cotton clothes -- not enough to | see with the naked eye, but some people are more | sensitive. | wtallis wrote: | Also important: some people live in areas with higher | ambient humidity than other areas. If you live in an area | where swamp coolers are a viable option in the summer, | then of course you'll have trouble understanding why some | people don't see hanging up damp clothes to be a | reasonable option. | new_guy wrote: | @dvtm if you're just going to hang your clothes up to | dry, then what's the point of having a dryer in the first | place? | mkl wrote: | Hanging clothes on a rack inside is easy, but hanging | sheets inside is not. I use my dryer for sheets when | weather or time of day makes the outside line not a | solution. I also use the dryer occasionally if I need | some particular clothes in a hurry. | | I never put things through the dryer and then hang them | though; my dryer works, and I don't even use the highest | setting. | wrycoder wrote: | In some locations, it's illegal to dry your clothes on an | outside line. | WalterBright wrote: | I just bought a clothes rack for the wet clothes. The | clothes last longer anyway. Don't use the dryer anymore | unless I need the clothes right away. | BolexNOLA wrote: | Living in the Deep South...that's not an option lol | WalterBright wrote: | I live in drizzly Seattle. It takes about 24 hrs for the | clothes to dry, but there's no mildew problem if your | house is dry. | | In the summer I sometimes put the rack out on the deck. | The fresh smell of sun-dried clothes can't be beat. | | I grew up in Phoenix. Drying the clothes consisted of: | | 1. taking them out of the washer | | 2. putting them on the line | | 3. going back to to the beginning of the line, and taking | them off, as they are now dry | | I'm not joking. | Guthur wrote: | God no please stop with getting the government involved, if | the last 2 years have not convinced you how much they are all | dim wits then I don't know what will. | | The answer is don't buy the damn house it's that simple. | People want cheap houses and this is that. Pay more build | what you want and be happy. And if you want to complain about | how expensive designing and building a house is then blame | those very same dim wits you want to come safe you. | jay_kyburz wrote: | If your government is broken you should fix that first. Our | government is our collective strength designed to protect | us from the vampire overlords and blood sucking squids. | roenxi wrote: | The first comment in this thread is proposing that there is a | corrupting force working with builders to install smart | ovens. Centralising power in a regulator isn't targeted at | the actual problem, and creates a single point of failure | that might well end up with smart-ovens becoming _mandatory_ | in new builds, where possible. | hutzlibu wrote: | "end up with smart-ovens becoming mandatory in new builds, | where possible." | | Oh for sure. To fight climate change(and dependence on | russian oil and gas), we all have to get a smart oven, to | make sure we are all using our energy in the most efficient | way. And not too often. Let's say a budget of 1 moderate | use per day per adult user. And if the grid gets too | unstable, your oven might smartly switches off and on | during baking, to help stabilize the grid. | torstenvl wrote: | Or prosecute a few of these people for treason. Let's not | mince words here. When you build a home and include a | backdoor for foreign intelligence, you are committing | treason. | rasz wrote: | Craigslist is a thing, nothing stops you from selling stuff you | dont want and replacing it with stuff you do want. | rootusrootus wrote: | Yep, but then there is the labor to uninstall, reinstall, and | the effort to sell the original. The builder will actually | install whatever you want, and the price is just low enough | that you would not come out ahead doing the Craigslist swap | later. They'll just make you pay the full price of whatever | appliance you choose, no credit for the appliance you did not | have installed. | version_five wrote: | Thanks for the insight! | car_analogy wrote: | Yeah like you can sell your smart TV and buy one of the | approximately zero remaining consumer-available non-smart | TVs. | | Voting with your wallet didn't work so far, but stay the | course! Any moment now it'll start working, I'm certain. | jancsika wrote: | Approximately zero does not equal zero. | | Affirmation: I got a Spectre non-smart piece-of-shit TV | before they sold out at Walmart. It's such a piece of shit | it only lets you play mp3s from a directory on flash drive. | | Trust me, there's a piece of shit out there somewhere with | your name on it. It's just a matter of whether you're going | to put in the effort required to find it. | | "It's the question that drives us, Neo." -The Matrix | squarefoot wrote: | > It's such a piece of shit it only lets you play mp3s | from a directory on flash drive. | | That's doesn't seem a big problem if you use an external | Kodi box. I'll be relocating in months and will likely | buy a signage display if I can't find a new bigger enough | non smart TV. I only use my current non smart TV for RF | channels while everything else comes through a unlocked | chromebox with Kodi. It plays everything and doesn't | contain spyware or ads. | steanne wrote: | why would i want my tv to play mp3s? | jancsika wrote: | What I meant is: that is the extent of non-TV business | that the TV will do. There's no connecting to wifi, hence | no phoning home. | jsymolon wrote: | A lot of times when I'm entertaining and cooking, I'll | put some music on. Usually around the holidays. | dylan604 wrote: | Cause shitty TVs are known the world over for their | quality sound? | Scoundreller wrote: | Flat panel sound has gotten shittier over time. The move | toward thinner and thinner units means jankier speakers. | RHSeeger wrote: | My TV gets a single HDMI in, from my receiver; no wifi. | Everything else gets plugged into the receiver. | Everything internet related gets played from an external | devices, to the receiver, to the TV. | clsec wrote: | IDK, my TV went out 3 days before the Super Bowl and I | bought a perfectly fine Sceptre (not Spectre) TV from | Amazon and got it the morning of the game. As a dumb TV | it does exactly what it's supposed to. | | side note: I've previously stated that I refuse to buy | from Amazon but in this case I had to bite the bullet and | take them up on their free month of Prime so that I'd get | it by the Super Bowl. They also had other brands with | various levels of dumbness. | Scoundreller wrote: | If you're happy with 55" or less of 1080p, used LCD TVs | are dirt cheap. | | Like, I bought a 42" for the cabin for $40, and got a | replacement remote for $8 off Aliexpress. I could sell | the stand and power supply for about $100 because they're | shared with more "modern"/bigger units. | | Everyone is buying the latest 4K smart junk. And losing | the stand when they wall-mount it. | | (Cabin doesn't have internet, so I was actually worried | about a smart tv disabling itself) | r3trohack3r wrote: | Not disagreeing with the sentiment here, but I was recently | surprised to find my LG smart TV allowed me to reject their | terms of service and privacy policy. | | If you reject them, it cuts off access to all of the smart | tv stuff (including the App Store, apps, etc). Seems like | telemetry also stops. | | I was pretty delighted to discover this. | clhodapp wrote: | Does it not periodically bug you if you do that? That's | what happened with mine until I eventually relented and | started getting bugged by their "notification" | advertising instead | flatiron wrote: | My Samsung tv puts itself in "demo mode" if you aren't on | the Wi-Fi and it'll shut itself down and reset all its | settings every hour. | DiabloD3 wrote: | Unfortunately, that was your mistake. | | _Never_ buy anything Samsung branded. No phones, no | consumer SSDs, no TVs, no monitors, no laptops, no phones | and tablets, no fridges and wash machines and driers. | _Nothing_. The entire brand is toxic. | | Hell, don't even do business with their fab, ask Nvidia | about how that turned out for them. | christophilus wrote: | > Samsung | | I see your problem. | rosndo wrote: | But why would you but anything but an LG OLED? | flatiron wrote: | My contractor dropped my previous tv which was like 10 | years old and that's what he got as a replacement. Went | from 1080p to 4k. | notreallyserio wrote: | Mine bleeds pretty bad around the edge. Not bad enough | I'd go through a replacement process but I won't buy one | again. | aceazzameen wrote: | I did the same with my Sony Bravia, although I still have | access to apps I want to use. I don't even know what the | features are that I rejected cause I don't care about | them. | amyjess wrote: | I mean, there's no reason you can't buy used. | | (though, yes, it phenomenally sucks that you can't buy one | new anymore) | [deleted] | abrowne wrote: | I got new boilers (furnaces for radiator heating) installed | recently, and halfway through one of the crew asked where they | should install the boxes that connect the thermostats to the | internet. Luckily they were completely separate, so I said I | never agreed with that and they left them boxed up, because | they had never thought to mention it. (They listened to my | explanation that I would not have something that literally | starts a fire in my house connected to the internet without at | least being able to control the software it runs, but I think | they were just being polite.) | assttoasstmgr wrote: | I mean you do realize a Wi-Fi connected thermostat just | closes a pair of contacts that tell the boiler "heat on" or | "heat off" and it's not "literally starting a fire" in your | house. Assuming someone took over and had full control of | your thermostat the worst they could do is turn the heat on | and make you uncomfortable. All boilers/furnaces/etc have | protection mechanisms built in and in no circumstance is the | 'fire' controlled by the thermostat whatsoever. A thermostat | simply sends a signal that 'calls' for heat or cooling. The | only exception would be a mains-voltage thermostat that | controls an electric wall heater but I've never seen those | connected to Wi-Fi. | pengaru wrote: | Thermostats generally have an "off" setting, and it's | historically not uncommon for homeowners to use this | setting when the home is unoccupied as it clearly carries | less risk in terms of both fire and unexpected energy costs | than ones that may run the furnace. | | Not only is your comment pedantic, it's not even correct. | assttoasstmgr wrote: | The 'off' setting on a thermostat is no different than | when it is not calling for heat and it does not make any | other failure mode any less likely nor does it reduce the | risk of fire. In fact, leaving a home without heat in | some climates like the northeast leaves your home | susceptible to pipes freezing which carries a much higher | risk of damage to your home than a well-maintained boiler | or furnace spontaneously burning your house down which | happens almost never. | | Homeowners typically use this setting because the | overwhelming majority do not understand the mechanical | systems in their homes. | | The typical configuration for a steam boiler or hydronic | heating is a single pair of wires. They are either closed | (heat on) or open (heat off). That's it. | | I worked in the HVAC industry. My comment is pedantic | because it is correct. | pengaru wrote: | > The 'off' setting on a thermostat is no different than | when it is not calling for heat and it does not make any | other failure mode any less likely nor does it reduce the | risk of fire. | | You're completely ignoring the difference between an | unattended vs. attended fire. The former has a much | higher risk of being destructive and spreading to the | structure. | | The "off" setting explicitly won't trigger in response to | temperature change unattended, which is a similar concern | to internet-connected thermostats; unattended operation. | For those living in freezing climates they obviously must | weigh the relative risks. That first use of the furnace | in winter was always a monitored event back when I lived | with parents in the midwest, and it was often accompanied | by a burning smell we'd investigate and verify was just | some dust and nothing serious. | | Even if you refuse to acknowledge there's a difference in | unattended vs. attended fire risks WRT the furnace, | unexpected energy costs from continuously heating an | unoccupied home can break the bank for some. | | Even my Harman/Kardon amplifier's manual advises | unplugging it when going on vacation because of the risk | of it spuriously turning on wasting electricity and being | a noise problem. Its capacity to waste energy (~1kw) is | nowhere near that of a gas furnace, and it clearly | doesn't utilize combustion as part of its normal | operation. | | Fortunately I no longer live anywhere burst pipes are a | concern, and I'd never leave a heater setup to | automatically run in my absence. It makes _zero_ sense | for my situation. | | I find it amusing that you're qualifying statements with | "well-maintained", which amounts to a tacit recognition | of the risks. Well-maintained isn't the default, ignored | and neglected is, _especially_ for systems out of sight | and out of mind. | slavik81 wrote: | You should not turn your furnace off in a cold climate, | especially if the home is unoccupied. If the temperature | drops below too low, the water in your pipes may freeze | and expand, breaking the pipes and causing flooding. | Without anyone home to notice the problem, the flooding | can easily cause tens of thousands of dollars of damage. | | https://totalph.ca/should-i-turn-my-furnace-off-before-i- | go-... | jdavis703 wrote: | Correct, this is totally different than having a smart gas | oven or stove. I too would never have plumbing or gas | appliances hooked up to the internet. But my Nest | thermostat is totally safe. | assttoasstmgr wrote: | Whirlpool figured this out and deserves some praise here. | All their new appliances that support Wi-Fi connectivity | have a physical "Remote Enable" button that you must | manually push every cycle to enable remote control of the | device through the app. You cannot start the | oven/washer/etc remotely unless someone has manually | acknowledged it at the appliance and I believe it resets | after 24 hours or when the cycle is complete. | jay_kyburz wrote: | I bet its all software though. | WalterBright wrote: | Of course, and it's remotely upgradable, too. That way, | the manufacturer can install spyware anytime they want, | and any hacker can use it to mine bitcoins. | pengaru wrote: | > But my Nest thermostat is totally safe. | | It is not "totally safe" for your furnace to start in an | unoccupied home, particularly after it's been off for an | extended period. It's not impossible for critters to have | setup shop in the warm space near a pilot light, and in | an unoccupied home there's nobody to even smell what | would be an obvious problem before it becomes a crisis. | assttoasstmgr wrote: | This is FUD. | | Thermocouple-based gas valves immediately extinguish the | flow of gas when a pilot goes out in e.g. a pilot fed hot | water heater. This has been standard for decades. | | Pilot lights have not been used in gas furnaces in | decades. Everything has been electronic ignition since | the 80s at the latest. In fact they have been outlawed in | some locales for close to 40 years. | pengaru wrote: | > Thermocouple-based gas valves immediately extinguish | the flow of gas when a pilot goes out in e.g. a pilot fed | hot water heater. This has been standard for decades. | | Who said the pilot light was out? | | > Pilot lights have not been used in gas furnaces in | decades. Everything has been electronic ignition since | the 80s at the latest. In fact they have been outlawed in | some locales for close to 40 years. | | And the baby-boom produced how many homes with pilot | lights? Thermostats are often upgraded on existing homes | without touching anything else, and every single home | I've lived in was built decades ago still having original | HVAC. | DonHopkins wrote: | >just closes a pair of contacts that tell the boiler "heat | on" or "heat off" and it's not "literally starting a fire" | in your house | | Unless you observe Shabbat. | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_on_Shabbat | | >Nobel Prize-winning physicist Richard Feynman recounts | that he was approached by young rabbis in a seminary who | asked him "is electricity fire?". He replied, "no", but | asked why they wanted to know, and was shocked that they | weren't interested in science at all, but just wanted to | interpret the Talmud. Feynman said that electricity was not | a chemical process, as fire is, and pointed out that there | is electricity in atoms and thus every phenomenon that | occurs in the world. Feynman proposed a simple way to | eliminate the spark: '"If that's what's bothering you, you | can put a condenser across the switch, so the electricity | will go on and off without any spark whatsoever--anywhere.' | But for some reason, they didn't like that idea either". | | Feynman was SHOCKED I say SHOCKED they weren't interested | in science at all! ;) | assttoasstmgr wrote: | If only there was a technological solution to this....... | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KosherSwitch | | I believe thermostats are okay, as long as you don't | adjust it. Many observant Jews use timers on Shabbos. | 13of40 wrote: | A year or two ago, my newish car was at the shop, recovering | from a fender bender, and I got a call from the police asking | where it was. I told them and they said that matched with the | coordinates they had. It turned out that the SOS system had | malfunctioned, and the GPS and integrated 4g (which I didn't | even know I had, because the car doesn't have a built in | navigation system or voice phone) had been phoning home and | telling the car company I was in trouble. I called the | manufacturer and asked if I had a subscription to this | service, and I was informed that the car had a subscription, | and I couldn't cancel it. Luckily I appealed to the | dealership and after a couple of days the sent me a | "confidential" pdf with instructions on how to unplug the spy | module...which of course threw up all kinds of scary warnings | starting the car after that... until it suddenly didn't | anymore. So now I have a dumb car, and I love it more than | ever. | toss1 wrote: | May I ask what kind of car that was, and what country? | vetinari wrote: | AFAIK the SOS system is mandatory in any new car sold in | EU since 31.3.2018. | car_analogy wrote: | megablast wrote: | Good. Every car needs to be tracked at all times. They are | death machines, responsible for over s million deaths | worldwide every year. It is insane we allow this. | kQq9oHeAz6wLLS wrote: | I gotta know now...what make and model? | 13of40 wrote: | 2017 BMW X3. I forget what the module is called, but it's | behind the panel in the cargo area on the left side. | LAC-Tech wrote: | I can't imagine living in a place where there's enough | police for any of them give a shit about stolen cars. | Jealous! | spaetzleesser wrote: | I lived in Sonoma County for a while and there they | followed up everything, even noise complaints. Same for | the post office. It's nice to live in a wealthy area. | wrycoder wrote: | It also helps when the police have very few complaints to | follow up. | theonealtair wrote: | I went to use the app for my hot tub and put in the 6 digit | pin, except the last number I put in was a 4 instead of a 3. | It logged me in, but the temperature looked off, then I | realized I wasn't connected to my hot tub, it was someone | else. Turns out the 6-digit pins are sequential. And this is | from a billion dollar pool company. | TheCoelacanth wrote: | The S in IOT stands for security. | bombcar wrote: | This is true across a frighteningly large swath of "quasi | industrial home control" stuff - all the vulnerabilities of | industrial controls with zero of the attention paid to it. | JoeyBananas wrote: | That's incredible | theonealtair wrote: | The temp said 20deg (which is impossible in my climate). | Good thing I didn't crank the heat up. | ajsnigrutin wrote: | So wait.. you get your oven when you buy your (new?) house? | | Everywhere i've been, you're happy if you get a kitchen, and | the oven is just like a washing machine... a standard-sized | piece of equipment that fits in a standard-sized hole in your | kitchen, that you buy in an electronics store. | mkl wrote: | Some ovens are built into kitchen benches. | Chris2048 wrote: | > I have no idea what the solution is | | Refuse to have any oven and hire someone else to install one | afterwards. | rootusrootus wrote: | In my experience the builder will very happily install | whatever you want. But they will charge you full price for | the appliance you select, and give you no credit for the one | you are not having installed. | | Sounds like a bad deal, because it is. But... what are you | going to do? Let them install the one they planned to, then | rip it out and install the one you want later? Okay, maybe | you can get enough for the original one to come out ahead | financially, but mostly you won't, once labor is factored in. | It's a wonderful racket for builders, they know exactly how | to price it so you pay far more than the difference for every | upgrade. | duped wrote: | Why not tell them not to install it? My local big box | stores install appliances for free or a nominal fee. | | If you can afford to build your own home, you can afford it | too! | aunty_helen wrote: | >the only one offered by his home builder | | Then obviously he's powerless and the corporates have won. | | Or, yano just like tell them you want it changed or you'll get | someone else to take your hundreds of thousands of dollars to | build your house. | nix9000 wrote: | It's likely they bought the house from the home builder e.g. | something like Toll Brothers. So the alternative is to take | their hundreds of thousands of dollars and buy another house. | duped wrote: | Appliances are not that expensive, and you are free to sell | whatever is in your home and buy what you'd like. If you're | getting a good deal on the home you can break even, if not | ahead on that. | mcspiff wrote: | It's even worse now in Canada -- not smart devices, but water | heater rentals. These companies charge astronomical rates per | month for a rental, or a large "contract buy out fee". They | give kick backs to developers so almost all new builds in | Ontario will have them. | ohyeshedid wrote: | Ahh, the Culligan/Water treatment/softener business model. | hedora wrote: | I suppose their lawyers figured out that people would just | recycle them and stop paying. | | If so, I suggest installing a water softener with an anti- | backflow device but not installing a bladder pressure relief | tank between it and the water heater. Also buy a whole house | leak detector / shutoff valve. | | If the resulting water heater tank rupture doesn't lead them | to breach the maintenance side of the contract, look into | over-softening the water so the sacrificial anode fails every | 6-12 months. | | (Edit: In case it wasn't clear, this is a great way to do | unbounded amounts of damage to your house, so don't actually | do this.) | Scoundreller wrote: | I think it's a regional thing, big in Ontario and | Saskatchewan, unheard of elsewhere. | | Always look into buyout terms. Though replacement heaters | these days are lot more expensive than pre-covid :( | mindslight wrote: | Individually, pushing back on such terms and having a strong | alternative. "subtract the cost of the oven and leave the spot | empty". | | Collectively, through market leveling regulation. "Selling" a | device where the manufacturer retains control after the | transaction is straightforwardly in the category of fraud. But | unfortunately we seem to need new laws rather than relying on | straightforward torts. | | Furthermore, reigning in the surveillance industry with a US | GDPR would go a long way towards removing the incentives for | this bullshit. | pinewurst wrote: | Specifically the only choice offering dual ovens in a single | form-factor. | xfitm3 wrote: | I would like to remotely turn on my oven to preheat, but I | don't want this enough to get a wifi equipped appliance. | zxcvbn4038 wrote: | The problem with this trend is what happens in 2-3 years when the | manufacturer decides they don't want to update the app anymore? I | have ovens that are twenty years old, my washing machine was made | in the 1950s (and has so much steel I think it can be used as a | tank in times of war). I'm pretty sure appliances today aren't | built to the same standard but seems foolish to have to throw | everything away every few years because the app isn't being | updated for the latest iOS or it's not compatible with wifi7 or | similar. At least with my AC I can fall back to the remote or | front panel. In this case you don't even get that option. | pickledcods wrote: | Because it is internet connected, and possibly only works when | internet connected, you are dependent on the manufacturer after | purchase. Does it have a built in web-server that can device- | independent access all functions through a local net. If not then | it sounds to me like after-sales. | | What are the after-sales terms? Is there a contract? Are you | going to pay for an after-sales subscription? If not, how is | their business model to finance it? How is your privacy or | personal identification involved? How long will the product be | supported (Planned obsolescence)? Can you block automatic- | updates? Can you downgrade the firmware? What are your legal | options if they close down the service before product end-of- | lifetime? Or liability if the product gets hacked and | destroys/damages property? Will refusing after-sales influence | warranty? What are their terms & conditions to ban your access to | the device? What are the non-automated options in case of | disputes? What are the options/rights when escalating complaints? | | Sounds like these questions should be answered on the box before | you (or the person installing it) should open it. Or in the first | section of EULA in layman's terms. | teekert wrote: | It is at least nice to hear that the touchscreen experience was | nice. Recently I had 2 experiences where I longed back to older | tech. A Siemens oven/microwave in a rented cabin that had an | awful menu filled with options and took 4 steps to get to the | function I needed, whereas my 10 y/o AEG I hit the function I | want (key with icon immediately accessible) and then start. And, | my own 2006 Ford has a BT module (aftermarket) which just starts | when I start the car and it connects and works. My parents Dacia | has a fancy system that takes 2 min to boot and then I need to | try a couple of times and then it connects, really annoying, yeah | it has a large touchscreen but I much prefer my ancient 1 line | LCD display. | | Now that I think about it, my oven has a one line old glowy | numbers display. Maybe the limited displays force much more | thought into how to make funtions accessible. | lsllc wrote: | Haven't bought appliances in a long time but we recently replaced | most of the appliances with LG Thinq units, incl. a Wifi enabled | refrigerator, oven, washer and dryer. | | I have to say the Wifi enabled refrigerator is next to useless, I | guess it tells me the temp and when the water filter needs | changing ... not things I need. (and it only works on 2Ghz, so | you need a separate 2Ghz _only_ WLAN for it). | | The Wifi oven is actually useful, because when you have that "did | I leave the oven on" moment after you have left the house, not | only can you check, but you can remotely turn it off. It's also | useful for starting the oven preheat as you're buying that frozen | pizza at the store so you can come home to a hot oven ready to | go. The periodic "your oven needs cleaning" notifications are | annoying though. | | By far the Wifi enabled washer and dryer are the most useful! You | get a notification when the wash/dry is done! and the washer will | keep reminding you until you open the door on the unit so you | don't end up forgetting and then having to rewash to avoid smelly | clothes. | | (weirdly, only the fridge had the 2Ghz only problem, must use | different hardware) | dtgriscom wrote: | > 2Ghz | | Do you mean 2.4GHz? | c7DJTLrn wrote: | I hope the oven has a better reset process than GE lightbulbs... | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgIsn0Zac3o | d_tr wrote: | Firmware version two point nine with Turn Time 2 will be a real | game changer. I think I 'll wait. | nop_slide wrote: | Ha! I have a fun one. | | We recently had our first child. I finally opened a thermometer | we were gifted from a shower and low and behold, the thing can | not take a temperature without downloading an app. It has a | digital screen and everything, but you when you first power it on | you are greeted with it displaying "APP" and you HAVE to download | the app & set it up before it will work. | | When we finally took the temperature, the damn thing still didn't | even display it on the screen, it sent the reading to the app. I | don't even know what the point of the screen is. | | This thing also wants to "anonymously" share your temp readings | and location with the community stating it will help and let you | know if there are diseases spreading locally. | | It went against my dignity to download it and use the thing, but | it was 10:00PM and checking our baby's temp at the time was more | important. | | Still it was the most asinine smart-device experience I have had | to date. | mberning wrote: | This is why licensing your brand is such a double edged sword. GE | has had nothing to do with engineering appliances for many years, | yet you can still take the reputational hit when things like this | come to light. | egberts1 wrote: | Return it back to the store. | | Not worth the trouble. | CoastalCoder wrote: | I'm curious about this from a U.S. legal perspective. | | Suppose I advertise (and sell) a product without clearly | informing the buyer of additional requirements they'll face in | order to use the product as advertised. E.g., access | functionality via WiFi, accept an EULA, etc. | | At what point does that become fraud or illegally deceptive | advertising? | | I'm assuming that there's some allowance for assuming common | knowledge, e.g. that an electric oven will require a 220-240V | connection. But if there's a legal line to be crossed, where is | it? | gambiting wrote: | He literally shows a screenshot in the article with the line | highlighted telling you that you have to connect an app to | unlock some features. You'd have a hard time arguing that's | deceptive advertising. | CoastalCoder wrote: | Sorry, I only noticed that after writing my comment. | | So maybe my question applies to other situations but not this | particular one. | jacquesm wrote: | I can see a service come into existence where you can have | 'smart' appliances defanged. | donohoe wrote: | I know a fair number of people who have internet connected | fridges, thermostats, cars, air quality monitors, and so on. | | Most of them don't work in tech. Those that do have very few and | seek out 'dumb' versions. I count myself in that group. | | Next time I need a new TV it will not be a smart one. My current | on has Roku but not its showing ads... so now I use TV | exclusively through my Apple TV. _Sigh_ | CorrectHorseBat wrote: | Reminds me of this news from yesterday | https://tweakers.net/nieuws/193950/aeg-combimagnetron-denkt-... | (Dutch, couldn't find an English source) | | AEG microwave thinks it's an steam oven after update, don't think | even The Onion could come up with this. | firefoxd wrote: | That reminds me of my Westinghouse Radio hub[1]. They abandoned | the product and the domain expired. So naturally, it couldn't | play the radio. | | [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22083759 | paxys wrote: | The right time to complain about this would have been _before_ | you bought the oven. Companies are only going to stop these | practices if shoppers vote with their wallets. | elmerfud wrote: | Companies will keep shoveling this kind of garbage out there door | as long as people like him are passive enough to deal with it. | This may be the limited range of options offered by his builder | but if you get an appliance and that appliance does not work | contact your builder or contact the manufacturer of the appliance | for warranty repair. | | Make them send out a technician to manually update the firmware | if that's what they require but tell them you have no Wi-Fi and | they can take this garbage back and give you your money back and | then you can sue your builder to put an appliance that works but | until people begin to hit these places in the pocketbook and vote | with their dollars this kind of trash will not change. | | I don't want to have to buy an "internet of shit appliance" that | needs to be on the internet because they shipped it with broken | firmware. They can either take it back or they can send a | technician to conduct a warranty repair. The only exception would | be something that's bold and bright on the front of the box that | says internet connection required to function. Most of these | things don't say that they just say Wi-Fi enabled. Which is a | fine benefit for those people who want that kind of | interconnected appliance and spyware lifestyle. For those who do | not the correct action is hit the company's in their pocketbook. | | The loss of dollars is the only message that companies understand | loud and clear. A Twitter complaint is just wasting your time. | colinmhayes wrote: | > Make them send out a technician to manually update the | firmware if that's what they require but tell them you have no | Wi-Fi and they can take this garbage back and give you your | money back and then you can sue your builder to put an | appliance that works | | The oven is specifically marketed as not having some features | without connecting to the internet. I'm not sure what you think | complaining would accomplish, but I can assure you it will not | lead to any firmware updates or refunds. And it definitely | won't lead to a winning law suit. | [deleted] | azemetre wrote: | I understand what you are saying but this is where citizens can | obviously lobby their representatives to ban this practice and | allow a category of goods to work without internet connections. | | This is what regulation is all about. | Nextgrid wrote: | The harm here isn't that there is no non-WiFi oven available, | it's the underlying reason why the oven wants Wi-Fi and an | app: "growth and engagement" aka data collection, | advertising, etc. The primary purpose of this oven isn't to | be an oven, it's to build a "platform" which you can then use | to "engage" its users with more ads, DRM-encumbered | consumables, etc. Their intended end-game is the | "Unauthorized Bread" story: | https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized- | bread-a-... | | Regulation should address non-consensual data collection and | the rest will follow. Non-WiFi ovens will be back on the | market once the connected ones stop being profitable (since | you can no longer stalk... I mean "engage" their users). | [deleted] | readthenotes1 wrote: | Wouldn't it be easier just to not buy an oven that requires | this if you don't want it? | | And if there are people who want to by the oven, why not | deign to let them? | | At best, we should require that there be clear labeling and I | would be surprised if there aren't regulations that cover | that. | Nextgrid wrote: | The danger is that we'll end up with the same situation as | we have with TVs - good luck finding a consumer-grade TV | with modern specs that doesn't spy on you, ask you to | create an account, show ads, etc. | | Some people will say that there are still budget models | (Sceptre is a common brand that comes up in these | discussions) that doesn't have any of that, but they're not | selling these products out of goodwill - they just have a | lot of dead stock (panels, etc) that they can shift | profitably. This stock will run out (and it does - do these | TVs have any modern features such as HDR, a quality panel, | etc?) if it turns out to be more profitable to produce spy | devices that happen to display TV content rather than | produce devices intended to display TV content with no | interest (nor capability) to spy. | | The proper solution is to heavily restrict advertising and | data collection so that in the end the advertising-based | business model isn't profitable and it becomes more | profitable to just go back to the old model of selling | good, purposeful devices at a profit. | eesmith wrote: | The account owner wrote: "We wanted dual ovens in the space | of a single oven and this was the only option our builder | offered." | itronitron wrote: | For now at least there are ovens that don't require it. But | since it's remarkably hard to find a robotic vacuum that | doesn't require wifi connectivity it may just be a matter | of time before all ovens are asking their owners to create | an account. | JadeNB wrote: | > I understand what you are saying but this is where citizens | can obviously lobby their representatives to ban this | practice and allow a category of goods to work without | internet connections. | | I think that the burden of proof should be the other way: it | shouldn't be that certain special devices are exempt from | internet connections, but rather that _all_ devices should | offer a mode whereby they perform all functionality that does | not directly require an internet connection. Then, of course, | we 'll have debates about what directly requires an internet | connection ... but at least it'll bring the discussion into | the open. | criddell wrote: | It's only a matter of time until these internet connected | appliances don't need access to your wifi. They will either | have a cell modem or the appliance company will pay Amazon for | access to their mesh network. | ce4 wrote: | What happened to SSL3/TLS1.0/TLS1.1 end-of-life will also | happen to Wifi protocols: WEP-only devices are already out, | WPA1-only devices will be next to lose access to a properly | secured wifi network. | | The longevity of the dumb parts in kitchen appliances exceeds | that of the smart boxes in them. The manufacturer cannot slap a | 20-years maintenance-budget onto the sticker price and I also | don't see customers paying for a yearly maintenance | subscription for 20 years (for each connected appliance). It | will take a decade until people have learned that the shiny new | iOT features are a burden in the long run. Maybe iOT | maintenance longevity will get sorted out sometimes. Until then | I refuse to buy such crap. | Nextgrid wrote: | From a manufacturer's perspective this seems awesome. Built- | in planned obsolescence. | ilamont wrote: | One of the replies mentions Samsung's similar requirement | frustrating his elderly relative. According to a 2015 OECD | computer skills study, <6% of Americans are level 3 (highest) | while half have only basic skills and 20% can't use computers. | https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/education/skills-matter_978926... | wereHamster wrote: | Share of adults proficient at problem-solving in technology- | rich environments: https://goingdigital.oecd.org/indicator/24 | | ... there are other indicators that are related as well, in the | https://goingdigital.oecd.org/dimension/use and | https://goingdigital.oecd.org/dimension/society dimensions. | falcolas wrote: | This data is disturbingly eye opening. | | Only ~5% of folks in the US are able to navigate through | webpages and apps when doing so is _required_ so solve a | particular problem. And it 's not like this is just a US | problem, the highest percentage across the measured countries | is a measly 10%. | | And the example task they used - using webpages and apps to | find a job - is more and more based solely online these days. | | I think I need to go make another donation to our local | library for their work in helping folks navigate these | tasks... | [deleted] | TheBill wrote: | Oh man, this reminds me of a story - GE Profile oven in a ski | condo, last day or second to last day we were there. | | Broke in a way that you couldn't open the door - and we couldn't | get the bacon out. Wound up reading the repair manual and a forum | while the GF cooked eggs, trying to figure it out. | | The Solenoid that is used to lock the door when it goes through a | clean cycle has to be powered on 100% of the time, and keeps its | spring compressed. Power turns off to lock it. If the | insulator/bushing for it breaks, it will jam open & lock the | door. Family will never buy GE appliances after this happened. | Mom just bought a new Kitchenaid that's got exactly 0 smart | features. | R0b0t1 wrote: | That's hilarious. It was an engineer trying to be fake safe. | Losing control over your device is going to be less safe than | just letting the user open the door during a clean cycle if the | power drops. | bombcar wrote: | The worst part of this stuff is you never find out about it | until long after the purchase is over. Unless you happen to | know a brand that's good (say Speed Queen for now) you are | stuck trying to guess what issues may occur someday. | bob1029 wrote: | > Speed Queen | | The only vendor who still sells a washer without lid lock... | I'm looking at getting their TC5 to replace this piece of | shit maytag that doesnt fill up properly. | askura wrote: | That's crazy. I wonder which company get the kickback for having | these installed in newbuilds? Bet you'll find a link there. | RansomStark wrote: | Every time I see a story like this I'm reminded how close we are | to unauthorized bread [0] and it saddens me each time. | | Humanity was given the greatest communication tool we could | imagine and we use it to spy on people and steal their data, so | companies can sell more shit. What a waste. | | [0] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/41085118-unauthorized- | br... | | On a side note, I'm convinced Doctorow is the greatest cyberpunk | writer there is, but I'm also sure the reason for this is because | earlier writers had to imagine a dystopian future. Doctorow, like | the rest of us, is living that future (which is much more boring | that fiction made out) and he's simply documenting what he sees. | notreallyserio wrote: | There's also the classic verification can: | https://m.imgur.com/dgGvgKF . Not exactly the same thing but | tangentially related. | calumetregion wrote: | Agree, but this assumes humans would ever had used it for | anything else. | amelius wrote: | People should massively buy this oven and return it. Because | that's what this company deserves for being so user-hostile. | criddell wrote: | Inventory of appliances is down quite a bit right now. It might | not be possible to massively buy the oven. | dt2m wrote: | At this point the best solution might almost be legislation | banning touch screens from cars and home appliances... | version_five wrote: | Or mandating any that include wifi, touch screen, anything | running code to be open source and able to be modified by the | user. | loonster wrote: | This wouldn't be good enough. | | Imagine pan frying something on your range, the food | splatters, and it changes the temperature on you. Now you | need to adjust the burner back down (or off), but you can't | adjust the temperature because the controls are now wet with | grease. Better be quick to dry off controls and turn off heat | before you start a grease fire. Or failing that, moving the | pan off from the heat source... | | Just ban them. | Nextgrid wrote: | Or merely restrict non-consensual data collection like the | GDPR does - this kills the underlying reason why every | appliance has to be "smart" and internet-connected. | _-david-_ wrote: | Are there more options to buy non-smart TVs in the EU than | the US? | squarefoot wrote: | https://www.swedx.com | | I'm not aware of other manufacturers, although Samsung | also makes signage displays but it's not clear if they | employ any "smart" features. Some also use Tizen which is | Linux based and should be open enough to allow rooting. | Mikeb85 wrote: | Touch screens on home appliances are nice sometimes though... | | I think people like the 'smart' features, they just want more | control over the device and not for it to be crippled if it's | not connected... | gpm wrote: | That will work for all of two years before we get the same shit | but with "gesture" controls (waving your arms in the air). | | Legislate against what you actually want to prevent. Here | that's locking features behind privacy violations and | connections to third party hardware. In cars it is also | controls that you have to look away from the road to use. | | The gdpr is on the right track on this issue, for an example. | jart wrote: | The Smart Home 2.0 revolution will address the accessibility | gap of voice enabled devices by including cameras in home | appliances too, so that speakers of sign language aren't left | behind. | smolder wrote: | It's like peeking through a crack into the future. Were you | in the think tank that planned the end of privacy? | jart wrote: | Think past the end of privacy and imagine the | democratization of access to privacy. A brave new world | where everyone gets the opportunity to be a big brother. | As for me, I'm pretty happy spending most of my time | working with a teletypewriter, cooking my food on unsmart | appliances, and not using a mobile phone. | FourthProtocol wrote: | In my social and work bubble nobody I've spoken to about it | watches live TV anymore, myself included. News is consumed online | (primarily Economist, Guardian and BBC, but not exclusively). TV | does XBox, DVDs (I've amassed over 10001) and streaming (via Xbox | and an old laptop). So of course any dumb disaplay with an HDMI | connector will do the job. Sports events often also stream live, | or can be watched in the pub. So beyond that, does live TV offer | that much value that it merits a Smart TV? | | 1 Of course most won't have such a library - but it offers | nothing more or less than streaming does. | damontal wrote: | Sports, if you care about sports. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-03-05 23:00 UTC)