[HN Gopher] A short conversation with a bank ___________________________________________________________________ A short conversation with a bank Author : fremden Score : 351 points Date : 2022-03-10 20:04 UTC (2 days ago) (HTM) web link (newsletter.danhon.com) (TXT) w3m dump (newsletter.danhon.com) | eweise wrote: | Try Chime. Its not a bank. | civilized wrote: | This is very, very much the vibe of my entire experience living | on this planet as an adult, dealing with financial services and | tech: | | "No we won't do the one thing you need us to do, even though it | is extremely simple and easy" | | "Hey would you like to try this thing we spent a billion dollars | on, you definitely don't need it but it's very trendy" | dmje wrote: | It's beyond tech and fin stuff IMO. The drive for profit has | just driven customer service through the floor across pretty | much every industry. If I think about all the services I use - | banks, energy, SAAS, trains, internet... I don't think any one | of them would provide me with a customer service email or phone | number that would end me up in a conversation with a real, | intelligent, English speaking, non-cribsheet following human | being. Every single one would give me a chat bot, a generic | email form, a number to ring that I'd have to sit on for a long | time and an end result that was far from what I'd consider | good, considerate customer service. | | Strikes me that there is potential here for businesses to | genuinely make customer service their focus, at the expense of | profit or maybe by offering their services at a slightly higher | premium. The Groundhog Day cycle of doom that we all feel all | the time is deeply damaging to everyone concerned apart from | shareholders. It'd be a breath of fresh air if companies went | back to focusing on their customers first and foremost. | bombcar wrote: | My experiences with Fidelity, TD Ameritrade, and Vanguard | have all had that level of service, including talking to a | human immediately the few times I've needed to. | | Note that they're all primarily investment brokers that | sometimes offer banking like services. | tzs wrote: | > with Gmail, where you were so aggressive about mining receipt | data from Amazon that when I get a receipt from Amazon now it | doesn't actually include what I bought because Amazon are | terrified you'll use that data to profile me and sell more ads | | I'm curious if Amazon uses different formatting depending on the | recipient's email address? | | I use Fastmail and checked my order confirmation (not sure if | that is the same as a recipt) from a recent order, and it does | not list the item I bought. However, at the bottom it _does_ have | a "Customers Who Bought Items In Your Order Also Bought" section | which lists a couple similar items to mine. | | Do they still have that on the ones send to gmail? | tsycho wrote: | This one annoys me a lot, and I blame Amazon. They seem to | think that my purchase data is a monopoly for them to sell me | ads on. And to be anti competitive, they have completely | screwed up the UX for customers. | | "Hi, it's Amazon. We have shipped your order #udid. But you | need to sign in to the app on your phone, and click through | multiple screens, to figure out which item it is. Because you | know, it's a $35 billion ad business for us." | | What happened to Amazon always being consumer first? | | Update: If Amazon offered a setting ("display item details in | email?"), I would have no complaints. They can default to opt- | out, and give it some self serving Apple-esque bullshit name | like "Protect your data from third parties", I would be okay | with all that. | hackerfromthefu wrote: | Let me FTFY | | Amazon are 'obsessed' with (their milking of) the customer | (and anyone else they can). | boppo1 wrote: | >What happened to Amazon always being consumer first? | | It worked | cafemachiavelli wrote: | I know this is the kind of flattering in-group humor aimed at | people like me, but I still found it hilarious. | | Also, considering that I'm listening to a talk about the | computational complexity of economic planning on the side, the | "we should recreate the entire financial system from first | principles" part felt like a rude yet completely deserved | callout. | pinko wrote: | > I'm listening to a talk about the computational complexity of | economic planning | | Ooo, sounds interesting! Link? | cafemachiavelli wrote: | https://youtu.be/soDlyercgOo | | Fwiw, I don't think economic planning is or was the main | problem of socialism, more the information gathering that | precedes it or the mechanism design that comes after, but I | have a soft spot in my heart for anyone engaging productively | with alternatives to capitalism, even if they aren't | particularly fleshed out. | mathattack wrote: | Every time I try to do something slightly beyond the ordinary | with my bank, I get reminded that it's mainframes all the way | down underneath. Mainframes that IT leaders are afraid to change, | update or reboot. Yet they still figure out a way to chisel you | every which way. | gyulai wrote: | "It's just that all of us have so little agency in this world | now." ...made my day. | hooby wrote: | So... | | do I laugh or cry now? | quadrifoliate wrote: | Not directly related to the title, but further in the article: | | > newly minted MBA ex-consultant who's just started working at | Dropbox as a product manager: and here is my presentation about | why it is imperative for us to expand from file synchronization | and, for some reason, password management, into financial service | integration through our automated financial information archival | tool, and then ultimately into financial services, which will | strengthen our moat against competition from other file | synchronization services | | I think this is largely part of why modern web services are | getting more annoying and aggressive about monetization strategy | -- a _massive_ proportion of people in product these days seem to | not be the sort of nerds-solving-real-world-problems who founded | Dropbox, but someone coming from big consulting companies where | the main output seems to be 300-slide presentations. It does not | seem like they have much of an exposure to the more human-centric | style of building a good product, but rely mostly on buzzwords | and spreadsheets, because that ties in closely to what they did | before. | | I'd like to hear a counterargument from any ex-consulting product | managers, or people who hire them though :) | | That being said, the password management seems...okay to me? | Services like 1Password _already_ used Dropbox as a backend, so | if you 're paying Dropbox, it seems like a fair feature expansion | for them to give you further reasons to keep using them since the | space overhead is presumably trivial. You probably have a decent | amount of sensitive data in there as well. | xiaosun wrote: | Well, I suppose the devil's advocate argument is once you get | to this stage (publicly traded company), the company's priority | is no longer just "do things to get traction", but also "do | things to support share price". You could argue the ex | consultant MBA type product manager is better suited to solve a | problem that institutional investors run by ex finance MBA | types have. | hackerfromthefu wrote: | That's exactly the problem - that's why things are so broken | as per the article. | mistrial9 wrote: | self-referential gravity pull into financial services churn | -- agree with disdain | danhon wrote: | IIRC 1Password doesn't let you use Dropbox as a syncing/backing | store anymore, and if it still does, it's being deprecated. | zoom6628 wrote: | Hilarious. Some things haven't really changed in 40+ years I've | been dealing with banks. Looking forward to a "short conversation | with YouTube about my account" version. | cuu508 wrote: | I've recently been going through my password manager and closing | inactive accounts. 9 out of 10 websites don't have a "close | account" function, you have to talk to the support. Unfortunately | these conversations are often similar to the ones in the article. | You get to talk to 5 different agents, you receive a confirmation | your account is closed but your login credentials still work, | eventually your login credentials become invalid but they still | send promotional email to your email address, and so on. | merlinscholz wrote: | If it's a service that is not blocked in the EU you can often | send a GDPR request to have your data deleted. | https://www.datarequests.org/generator/ | Nextgrid wrote: | In practice, a lot of companies lie and may not actually have | functionality to delete accounts. A UK fintech claimed they | closed my account, while in reality they changed the email to | <username>VOID@<domain> and presumably suspended future | logins, but guess what, all the data is internally still | there including the foreign key relationships which by | themselves are unique enough and can be used to reidentify me | and/or correlate my activity across other services. | immibis wrote: | ... does it happen to be your own domain with a wildcard | email inbox? | Nextgrid wrote: | Yes - that's how I found out. A company that was supposed | to delete my data as per the GDPR (or at the very least | retain the minimum amount of data required for legal | purposes) was sending me all kinds of emails to the | "VOID" address, clearly suggesting they just changed it | but otherwise left my account intact, most likely because | they didn't actually design the system to support being | able to delete user accounts. | reaperducer wrote: | _If it's a service that is not blocked in the EU you can | often send a GDPR request to have your data | deleted.https://www.datarequests.org/generator/_ | | The sorts of companies that don't have an online mechanism to | delete your account are the same kinds of companies that have | never heard of, or don't care about the the GDPR. | salawat wrote: | Actually, it's exceedingly common with typical RDBMS that | deletes are highly deleterious and time costly transactions | to process die to locking database tables for a copious | amount of time, bringing the system to a screeching halt. | This is why general practice is to modify the the data in | place and leave it there in an OLTP system. | BlueTemplar wrote: | I mean, technically speaking, actually deleting data without | physically destroying the drive is pretty hard, especially | with transistor-based dead storage ! | | I've always wondered whether GDPR just closed their eyes on | that, or if it was so that the process of later restoring | data was flagrant enough that it would be hard to hide upon | inspection... | avg_dev wrote: | that was beautiful. | | > bank: sir this conversation is recorded but I blinked my eyes | very slowly twice | | I laughed out loud at that. | | Edit: Also, I never realized why Amazon stopped putting the name | of the thing I purchased on the email receipt. Now it makes | sense. | TedDoesntTalk wrote: | > Now it makes sense. | | Can you enlighten me? Why don't they include that in the email | receipt? | nkurz wrote: | To prevent Google from tracking purchases. Google scans all | email that passes through its servers and parses out who | bought what. If the information isn't in the email, it makes | it harder for Google to do this. Presumably Amazon wants to | keep this information for its own competitive advantage. | Further reading: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/17/google- | gmail-tracks-purchase... | | Also, your comments seem to be auto-dead for the last couple | days. Glancing at your comment history, I'm not sure why. I | vouched to recover this one. You might want to check in with | Dan (hn@ycombinator.com) and ask him what's up. | robocat wrote: | Google parses purchases for that feature, but it looks like | Google denies using it for targeted advertising. | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30653102 | AshamedCaptain wrote: | > bank: instead you can get all your transaction data as a csv, | an xlsx, or an ofx or whatever Quicken or Microsoft Money thing | | I don't even know why is this a thing (i.e. who had to sacrifice | himself to the gods of IT interoperability so that a lot of banks | offered this) , but all of these formats are actually very well | documented these days. It's a GOD. SEND. that even the most | terrible of banks seems to offer this, double plus good when no | one at the bank even knows what "Quicken" is. | pjdesno wrote: | Best part: "but did you write it in rust?" | | Missing: Q: "So can I just walk into one of those zillion bank | branches you've set up in the last 10 years, squatting on all | that storefront real estate that could be used for _real_ | businesses that sell me something, attract tourists, or whatever? | " | | A: "No, they're just for show. We don't actually do any business | there, we just rent that space to piss you all off, as a visible | display of what we can do with all those excessive fees we charge | you." | Tijdreiziger wrote: | Dutch banks: | | Q: Well, at least I can still withdraw and deposit money there, | right? | | A: Actually, if you want to deposit coinage, we've outsourced | that to home improvement stores instead. | krallja wrote: | I'm assuming there is an option to turn it into | cryptocurrency too? | | (At least, that's what Coinstar in the US has become.) | chrisdave wrote: | That's not true, they maintain them as a backup in case you | corner a customer service representative on the phone and they | are about to have to do what you asked. That's when they tell | you you need to visit a branch. | ethbr0 wrote: | Branches are equally powerless. | | See: Bank of America's policy on two-party "and" checks. | | I walk in, having had a checking account with them for | decades: "Hi, I need to deposit a two-party check into my | account here. This is the other party with me, and we're | happy to show ID." | | Door greeter / agent: "Sure, I can do that for you." | _{Proceeds to verify my information and set up deposit on her | tablet}_ "Hmm." _{Walks over to her manager, discusses}_ | | Manager: "Hello. I'm sorry, we only allow two-party checks to | be deposited into joint accounts that list both parties." | | Me: "I have the other party standing right here, with ID." | | Manager: "That's our policy. Even if I pushed it through, the | central system would kick it back out." | | ... which is a policy they can have. But the annoyance to me, | is that it's a policy they _choose_ to have, rather than a | policy they 're _required_ to have. Corrections welcome, but | there 's no law that mandates this handling of two-party | "and" checks. It's just risk mitigation on BoA's part. | | Which, if a multi-decade relationship with your customer | doesn't facilitate taking additional risk (over a <$1k check) | in the interest of customer satisfaction... why would I do | business with you? | | Needless to say, I closed my BoA accounts. | reaperducer wrote: | _Needless to say, I closed my BoA accounts._ | | I've read a number of BoA horror stories on HN, and didn't | think anything of them. I just assumed there were a lot | because BoA is big in California. | | Then, recently, I tried to deal with BoA customer service. | | - I'm saving up a few thousand dollars for a Christmas | present, but don't want my wife to see the money in our | joint account at another bank. | | - Since I have BoA credit card with almost nothing on it, | and a BoA next door, I decided to open a savings account. | | - End of the month, I go online to pay my BoA credit card, | and I can't. There is no way on the web site to pay with | anything other than the savings account, and no way to re- | add my previous external account that I've used with BoA | for the last 10 years. | | - Call customer service. Wait on hold for _three hours_ , | getting transferred twice. | | - Finally get someone at BoA to tell me that because I | added the savings account, my status changed and I have to | add new payment accounts all over. | | - Explain _again_ that there is no way to add an external | payment account. | | - Two more transfers, and someone confirms that the web | site is screwed up. Hold on while I transfer you to that | department. | | - 20 minutes later, someone comes on the line to tell me | that tech customer service doesn't work on Saturdays | anymore and to check back in a few days and maybe it will | magically fix itself. | | - I decide to go to the branch. Open BoA app to check its | hours, and it's marked "Temporarily closed." So is the next | closest BoA. And the one after that. The nearest BoA that | is going to be open on Monday is two hours away, according | to the app. | | - Monday I go out for coffee, which takes me past the BoA | branch next door. It's open. People inside. Everything | looks normal, contrary to the app telling me it's supposed | to be closed. | | - I go into the branch, pay off my BoA card, empty the | savings account, close both accounts. | | Bank of America doesn't deserve to represent itself as the | bank of America. It should be called the Bank of Dipshits. | Root_Denied wrote: | Even before phone apps and internet banking BofA was | godawful. They'd process debits first, issue overdraft | fees, then process credits at the end of the day. As a | poor college student in the mid 2000's I got screwed over | twice before I closed my accounts there and haven't used | them since. | | Then at one point I was between jobs and filed for | unemployment - which _conveniently_ came on a BofA debit | card. 10 years later and I still get an email about some | kind of monthly statement for the $0.43 on there. I tried | to close out the account and gave up after several | attempts, and just marked it as spam. | drdec wrote: | Respectfully, you are doing it wrong. :-) | | Don't set up a payment option on the credit card's | website. Use the bill pay ability at the web site of the | bank where your checking account lives. Now all your | payment information is in one place and, more | importantly, under your control via pushing payments from | your checking to whomever instead of allowing a bunch of | companies to pull money from your account. | _jal wrote: | > Bank of America doesn't deserve to represent itself as | the bank of America | | Oh, this story is quintessential US Americana, right down | to the name. | | I've long maintained that one of the biggest gifts to US | corporations is how few of their customers visit other | countries. If more of them ever saw functional banking | (or humane healthcare, or competitive telephony and | broadband, or a number of other things), a lot of rents | would evaporate. | b3morales wrote: | It is, indeed. BofA is only as big as it is because it | was allowed to Kirby up dozens of regional banks in the | late 90s/early 00s. It did nothing to earn its position | and has done nothing but exploit it since. It is a poster | child for anti-customer consolidation. | willcipriano wrote: | Me and my wife have an account for IRS checks exclusively | due to this, otherwise we have our own accounts. | | Funny thing is she was able to open the account without | input from me so I'm not sure what this policy is actually | doing. | mring33621 wrote: | I have found that, as long as your name is on the check, | they will allow you to deposit a two-party check via the | BofA app. | vageli wrote: | I've deposited checks that were not even signed and made | out to another (and the person who gave me the check | didn't sign it over either!) on mobile banking apps. I | never sign the check for mobile or check the box on the | check if there is one. | bombcar wrote: | Our credit onion mobile deposit is obviously checked by a | human and they've actually bounced a check back as | needing both signatures. | dmoy wrote: | It's not supposed to, but it does go through sometimes | | Incidentally a BoA teller just told me yesterday that the | phone all is not supposed to accept two party checks at | _all_. | reaperducer wrote: | _It 's not supposed to, but it does go through sometimes_ | | Actually, it _is_ supposed to. | | The 1990's-era legislation that made phone deposits | possible shifted the liability and some other regulatory | details a bit to make it possible. The verification and | liability is less strict with an online deposit than an | in-person deposit. | | At the time, it was a big news story. The rule change was | originally intended to allow businesses to deposit checks | from their offices with a device over a modem for speed | and security. | | When it was in the news, people were up in arms because | it shifted the liability for certain types of fraud onto | the consumer, and away from the banks. Consumer advocates | saw it as a big money-grab by the evil mustache-twirling | bankers. | | The result is that now when you get something like a | random unexpected electric company refund check in the | mail, you can deposit it with your phone. | madaxe_again wrote: | Yeah, and then in the branch they call the customer service | line, and hand you the phone. | dstroot wrote: | OMG I've had that experience! It was ... weird. | datavirtue wrote: | Same here. It's not weird, it's abuse. | | The only time you get any service is when you are looking | to saddle yourself with debt or they have to comply due | to regulations. | lazide wrote: | Yup. I was so fed up with Bank of America's crappy | service I tried to close my account with them. It took _4 | months_ to do so, and at least 8 hrs of back and forth | between phone reps, online reps, and in person reps. | | First I was told to withdraw the remaining funds to get | the balance to zero. Before I did that, I asked them if | doing so would automatically close the account without | incurring some kinds of fees? _crickets_ | | Then I was promised when I got ahold of their specific | account closing department that I would be sent a small | cashiers check for the small balance I kept in there to | avoid incurring fees. Never arrived. | | Then I kept getting calls for someone with a different | name from the bank. I eventually figured out they were | trying to call about this issue, but literally has a | completely different name that made no sense. | | When I called them back anojt it to close the account | again, I was told I needed to go to a branch. Well, all | branches are closed due to Covid. Then I have to call | again, well, there is a specific branch that is open - | great! Too bad I couldn't find it via the branch locator | the first time. | | Go to that specific branch - closing an account requires | an appointment. | | Me: Ok, when is the next appointment? | | Them: since you're closing an account, you need a | specific kind of rep. The soonest appointment is a week | from now. | | Them: but you can close the account by withdrawing funds | to zero | | Me: will that actually close the account without | incurring some kind of negative balance due to fees? | | Them: _looks nervous_ uh no | | Me: I see, it's almost like you all are trying to get me | to not actually close my account due to some incentive | structure and tack on fees. I'm about _this close_ from | suing you in small claims court for not actually letting | me close my account. | | Them: _look at each other super nervously_ ehem, I can | book that appointment for you. | | Me: ok | | And somehow, when I get home after this, I get a text | that my account has _actually been closed_ and the | cashiers check gets in my hand _through the mail_ before | the actual appointment they scheduled me. | | It's just adding bullshit process to provide friction to | keep some metric up near as I can tell. | techsupporter wrote: | > Missing: Q: "So can I just walk into one of those zillion | bank branches you've set up in the last 10 years, squatting on | all that storefront real estate that could be used for real | businesses that sell me something, attract tourists, or | whatever?" | | > A: "No, they're just for show. We don't actually do any | business there... | | This is what I don't get about BECU being the most popular | credit union in Puget Sound. Every time there's a thread on | Reddit asking about the credit unions people use or if there's | a newcomer who's at a social gathering or just on Twitter, BECU | is always the recommended place. I don't understand, since | their branches are solely there to sell you a mortgage. | | Yet everyone is mad that Chase is opening branches all over | town where you can do actual banking with an actual human. | | (I'm neither a Chase nor BECU customer, for what it's worth.) | moltke wrote: | I've had my bank close my account and send all the money in it as | a cashier's check to my sister's house. They never told me and | let me keep depositing money (at one point I had ~$5k in there.) | The only way I was able to figure it out was when payments | stopped working and I physically went in to try to withdraw the | money I needed. | | Crypto has issues but banks are worse. | bityard wrote: | One thing that really needs to start taking hold in the public | consciousness is that credit unions are far superior to banks in | almost every way. | | They usually offer 100% of the same services but with lower (or | no) fees, and with far less bullshit. I've been a member of | multiple CUs and every time I've had a problem, I just walked in, | described the situation, and they just fixed it. If I call, I | don't get bounced around to 3 departments, at worst I end up | being transferred to a manager who actually has the power to fix | the problem. | | Every time I decided to try a bank instead of a credit union, I | have regretted it. | jiggunjer wrote: | This seems very US centric? | PascLeRasc wrote: | Every time I hear this I try a different credit union around | me. Sometimes they have arcane rules like "oh you don't | actually have dollars in this account. You have 500 shares. At | this time you may sell shares back to the credit union at a | rate of $1/share". Or recently a credit union in my area | emailed me my password after I signed up, and then they kept | sending me it in the mail as a reminder that I hadn't activated | my account yet. There's a credit union at my local health foods | store run by a professor who self-hosts their website out of | there and customer service is just his office hours, so I think | that'll be fun to try next. | immibis wrote: | FWIW this is how banks work. You always have shares. | Sometimes they just pretend they are dollars. | | I am not a customer of one, but I assume that using a CU | instead of a bank is like using Linux on your desktop instead | of Windows. | leetcrew wrote: | what kinds of services do you get from a bank/CU that cost | money? I've been using schwab for a few years, and the only | thing I've ever had to pay them for was the privilege of | throwing away my money on a couple stock options. I've only | ever had to contact their support for help with problems caused | by a different financial institution, and I was speaking with a | human within one or two minutes. | pinko wrote: | This is still true of small credit unions, but over the last 30 | years has become less true of giant credit unions in my | experience. Large credit unions have have morphed into | institutions that are nearly indistinguishable from banks, are | run by the same executives (who move laterally back and forth | between them), with the same culture, norms, and attitude | towards customers^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hmembers. | | And, unfortunately, small credit unions are finding it harder | and harder to compete given the necessary investments to keep | current technologically and meet new regulations. | el_benhameen wrote: | I want this to be true, but when looking at both home and auto | loans, the CUs around me were not remotely competitive on | rates. | bombcar wrote: | Most credit onions just resell the loans anyway (ours doesn't | if it has a term 10 years or less, which got us some decent | rates). | yial wrote: | Two anecdotal- | | I will say simple was a joy to work with, even for things that | were old. I would never have closed on my house in time if not | for them. Sadly- it seems that since BBVA -> PNC ... everything | historic for that account is gone. | | Unrelated to banks: | | Me: I'm calling because I got a notice that you're cancelling my | healthcare due to non payment of my premium? | | Healthcare service line: yes. You had a responsibility to pay it | and you didn't so we cancelled it and we can't change that | decision for 12 months. | | Me: but I have a confirmation of the payment from your digital | pay system, and a bank statement that shows you have taken | payments each month for the last several months. | | Healthcare service line: I don't see those on my end. You should | have called to verify we received them. Maybe your credit card or | checking account was stolen. | | Me: but I can login to your website and it has the payment | history. | | Healthcare service line: hangs up. | immibis wrote: | Time for small claims court! | mkr-hn wrote: | I miss Simple. I liked it ever since finding it in a sponsored | content slot on the new Digg. I cobbled together something like | the Goals feature with spreadsheets, but it's not the same. | | As for BBVA->PNC, I had to get the CFPB involved just to get | confirmation that my account was closed. | | https://old.reddit.com/r/BBVABank/comments/pypk87/good_news_... | | https://old.reddit.com/r/BBVABank/comments/r53cjt/it_was_ano... | | The "courtesy" waiver of the fee for the opt-out paper | statement not one Simple abductee asked for ends in April, so | we'll see how that goes. | yial wrote: | I had issues closing my PNC account as well, but eventually I | was able to successfully do so. Something had been migrated | strangely where I was getting statements and things mailed, | but in branch or on the phone they couldn't pull me up, nor | could I login to online banking. | | Eventually something happened that triggered a fee, which | after two cycles put the account negative, at which point | they were able to close the account and I paid the fees. (The | balance had been very low as I had planned to close it but | hadn't before the BBVA->PNC transition!) | | I'm Sorry you had to go through all that. It sounds | incredibly frustrating. | | But I miss simple so much as well. I miss how easy everything | was. Even with my local credit union... who I would rank as | okay, it took 10+ days and over a dozen emails to setup | online banking. | cantrevealname wrote: | > _with Gmail, where you were so aggressive about mining receipt | data from Amazon that when I get a receipt from Amazon now it | doesn't actually include what I bought_ | | Wow, he's right. The item name no longer appears on emailed | receipts I receive from Amazon as of about late 2019 or early | 2020. I can't think of a plausible explanation for this change | other than preventing Google from pilfering your detailed | purchase history. Thank you Amazon, I guess. | [deleted] | code_duck wrote: | This also enables Amazon to claim you purchased a different | item than you did, or charge a different price. The only way to | obtain documentation of a purchase is to take a screenshot of | every transaction. | | I bought some lightbulbs from Amazon recently. I am quite sure | I purchased some 7-8 watt LED candle bulbs. I received a | package of 50 watt incandescents, which was definitely not what | I wanted. I went to my Amazon account and it showed I had | purchased the incandescents. I looked at my email receipt, and | all contained was is a list of links to Amazon, which led to | their site, showing I had purchased the incandescents. The lack | of text in the email meant I had no way to determine what I | actually purchased and whether the mistake was on my end, | Amazon's or the third party vendor. | fjert wrote: | I had a very similar thing happen to me. I bought some AirPod | Pros on sale and received normal AirPods and the Amazon order | history indicated I ordered them when I know for a fact I had | not. I was able to exchange them and all, but it was super | frustrating. | breakingcups wrote: | You probably unintentionally got caught in a review | whitewashing scheme, where a well-rated product gets renamed | and its specification and pictures updated to an entirely | unrelated (or in your case, somewhat related) product so the | seller doesn't have to start from 0 reputation. | bduerst wrote: | Nah, Amazon just figured out they could get you to buy more by | getting you to click back into the website. | | Gmail hasn't mined data for commercial purposes for half a | decade now. Someone at Amazon took dark-pattern _customer | engagement_ 101. | dan-robertson wrote: | Maybe this is a U.S. thing or I don't understand what you mean | by 'receipt' but in the U.K. I get an 'order confirmation' | which contains the things I ordered as well as various delivery | updates. | WillPostForFood wrote: | I find it pretty annoying that the product info isn't in the | receipts, shipment notification, or delivery notification. A | less charitable interpretation of Amazon's motivation is that | it forces you to click back to Amazon where they are trying to | sell more to you. | [deleted] | rebeccaskinner wrote: | Another plausible explanation is that omitting the items you | bought means that you have to log back into Amazon and look at | your purchase history to see what you ordered. That gives | amazon several more touch points to get you to buy more things, | including the "buy it again" button that they put on the page | for particular items. It also makes it more difficult for you | to search for the name of something you bought in the past to | order it from a different retailer. | mattwilsonn888 wrote: | Seems incompatible. Making you log-in to advertise is a far | less effective option than the ability to advertise products | to you _while you voluntarily_ use another service, i.e. your | email. They could easily do the same adverts and quick order | links from your email, but targeted adverts in your inbox is | useful information to Google, maybe even better than purchase | history since the recommendation work is already completed. | danuker wrote: | Once you're logged in, the credit card is ready to go. | Jabbles wrote: | Cannot reproduce - my emails from Amazon have the subject "Your | order of X" and contain a link to X. | bityard wrote: | It must vary by customer, none of my emails about my Amazon | orders EVER contain any information about the items ordered, | they just have a status and the order number. | | I once talked to their customer service to ask how to stop | getting the emails since they're basically entirely useless | and they told me there's no way to do that. | vetinari wrote: | Not only that; it seems even your chosen language has an | impact. | | The mails from Amazon.de in German do not contain any | information about ordered items. From the same Amazon.de, | to the same mail address, but in Czech, they do. | lostlogin wrote: | This sort of solution belongs in the article. | bombcar wrote: | My _order_ receipts have what I ordered but the shipment and | delivery notifications no longer do. | Jabbles wrote: | I have: | | - Your order of X (confirmation) | | - Your order of X has been dispatched | | - Arriving today: X | | - Delivered: Order number N | | Only the last does not contain the product name X. | robocat wrote: | > with Gmail, where you were so aggressive about mining receipt | data from Amazon that when I get a receipt from Amazon now it | doesn't actually include what I bought | | Anyone have a factual source that confirms that gmail is mining | receipt data for advertising? | | One refutation https://www.inc.com/minda-zetlin/google-gmail- | purchases-priv... said in 2019 that Google's Purchase's page | said "Google won't sell the [Purchases] information or use it | to choose which ads you see"; however I did just log into | Google and looked at https://myaccount.google.com/purchases and | couldn't find that text now, so who knows if that is still | true. | | Edit: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20067714 refers to a | second refutation from 2017 - "Google Will No Longer Scan Gmail | for Ad Targeting". | | Edit: I did read an article talking about other companies | scanning receipts to target advertising, so that could be a | motivation of Amazon's. | makeitdouble wrote: | You seem to be equating "mining" with "selling to third | parties", I don't think it's the common use (I understand it | as "gathering data"). | | Also there's many ways to exploit the purchase data without | ever selling it outside the company, including using it in | aggregate for ad targeting without exposing specifics to the | ad buyer. | skybrian wrote: | Another possibility is that email is sometimes unencrypted, | email clients vary in how secure they are, and some regulation | says they have to care about this because privacy. | | But who knows, making stuff up like you and I did isn't | evidence. At best it gives you an idea of the range of | possibilities. | lelandfe wrote: | There is precedent of weaponizing email data against the | company sending the emails, though.[0] This definitely seems | like a move that's in Amazon's best interest. | | I have not heard about regulations like what you're | describing. | | [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/24/technology/personal- | data-... | nly wrote: | I don't see this. | | I ordered something from Amazon today and a full description of | the item I bought, including size and price, is in purchase | confirmation email... | hooksfordays wrote: | Another explanation I'm predisposed to, due to personal | involvement: I was on the Shop[1] team when it was | transitioning from Arrive to Shop, and shifting from a package | tracking application to a shopping cart. If you gave the app | access to read your emails, we'd scan for tracking #s but also | parse through emails from Amazon to pull data about what you | ordered straight into the app, so you could track everything | from one place. Shortly after Shop started gaining major | traction in late 2019/early 2020, Amazon started pulling more | and more details from their order confirmation emails, and we | were less and less able to provide actionable info on your | Amazon orders until they finally put the entire order behind a | login, and all we could tell you in the Shop app was you had | placed an order at Amazon. | | [1] https://apps.apple.com/ca/app/shop-package-order- | tracker/id1... | hooksfordays wrote: | Slightly unrelated, we noticed this happening _before_ we | renamed the app in the App Store from Arrive to Shop, but | after the rename happened in, I think, March of 2020, | negative reviews about the missing Amazon data started | flooding in. People associated the name/design change with | the degraded experience, when really the experience had | already been degraded for a couple months by that point. The | initial rebrand only changed mostly superficial things, like | colours and the name! | tomcatfish wrote: | That's interesting and completely changes my views on | Amazon's actions. | | I thought they were blocking an action that is kind of "opt | out" and you're saying they might be blocking an "opt in" | action. Neat to hear this before I got too confident in my | position. | ripe wrote: | "So now everyone can recreate your statements."... "remember us? | We're a verb now." | | Hahahaha! | | I wish this weren't true. | ______-_-______ wrote: | We're a verb now, we've never had a profitable quarter, and | we're still trying to come up with a business model. | jasonladuke0311 wrote: | What is this reference, CashApp? | krallja wrote: | Venmo | TillE wrote: | The disappearing statements / transaction history is especially | annoying. | | A few years ago I had to review transactions for tax purposes, | but I couldn't because they only let me go back 12 months. Even | now my bank only goes back 3 years, while Amazon still has my | order history from 1999. | ilaksh wrote: | Amazing to me that cryptocurrency isn't even mentioned on this | page of comments, even though it is the type of technology | required to replace banks, which everyone agrees are horrible. | Nullinker wrote: | My wife wanted to close her US bank account: | | Customer: I don't live in the US anymore, how can I close my bank | account? | | 1 week later... | | Bank: Sorry for the delay, we were unable to answer your question | in time but assume that you have found the answer already and | closed the ticket. | | Customer: Repeats the question. | | Bank: To close an account you need to come in person to one of | our branches that are only in a few states in the USA. | | She still has the back account. | redisman wrote: | I closed my bank account by being abroad for many years and not | updating my KYC info when they asked for it | jacobkg wrote: | "customer service agent: would you be able to participate in a | customer satisfaction survey to provide feedback on how we did | after this call? | | you: if I don't give you a good rating in this survey will you | get fired? | | customer service agent: yes" | | This particular aspect of modern society really bothers me | datavirtue wrote: | If I do those I just give glaring reviews so as to possibly | relieve some small bit of human suffering. | TedDoesntTalk wrote: | If you agree to the survey, do you get bumped higher in the | queue? I've always wondered. | salawat wrote: | Nope. You don't. | Nimitz14 wrote: | I think you mean glowing | RhysU wrote: | Fidelity is great. I don't work for Fidelity. | | For example, this week I needed some cost basis information on a | transfer between accounts with unlike registration. Couldn't get | it online. I emailed them. They responded via secure message with | exactly what I wanted in 2 business days. | dylan604 wrote: | I can't tell if this is a joke, or a serious attempt at telling | us how good a company is by someone that drank the kool-aid. | | 2 days to receive answer to a simple question? Responded via | secure message? What does that entail? | compiler-guy wrote: | Email is unencrypted by default, and although private secure | message systems like this are annoying to work with, they do | avoid that problem. | pinko wrote: | Agreed; an ugly but reasonable solution to a real problem. | However! I wish they'd put a URL in the email which brought | you _directly_ to the message in question once you logged | in, rather than forcing you to navigate through the whole | web UI and messaging system to find it. They never do that. | fingerlocks wrote: | Probably means the internal messaging system on Fidelity's | page. | | FWIW, I also think Fidelity has fantastic customer service, | especially in-person. It's their differentiator and | competitive advantage. Wouldn't be surprised if OPs question | was not simple at all. | simonblack wrote: | Banks are not in the business of giving you services. Banks are | in the business of selling you money. And they like charging as | much as possible for the money they sell you. | 542458 wrote: | Sure, but my local hardware store is also trying to sell me | stuff and is trying to charge as much as possible for it, yet I | don't have to jump through opaque and frustrating procedures | and barely functional web systems to buy a 2x4. | | The author's issue comes down to banks being apparently | uninterested in attracting business by solving actual customer | pain points. Instead of solving real problems (terrible UX | around a lack of statements, a malicious USB stick can drain | your bank account, etc) the banks mostly just appear to trend | chase (chat app! Crypto!). | pc86 wrote: | The bar to open a hardware store next door is much lower than | the bar to open a bank (I am not arguing for more bank | deregulation). And the bar for the customer to switch from | one hardware store to another is much lower than the bar for | a customer to move all their accounts, direct deposit, | mortgage, etc. from one bank to another. | pnutjam wrote: | Never had these problems with my CU (LMCU), and honestly Cap1 | bank has been doing a pretty bang up job with my CC's. I'm | considering trying them for banking. | nym112358 wrote: | Capital One CC and Capital One Bank (360) are completely | different creatures, with a shared web interface. I've | accumulated a bunch of experience with the major online | banks, for my personal use as well as settling an estate. | My "main account" is at Ally, but due to the possibilities | of account lockout I still have accounts at all three in | addition to a local CU (for cash withdrawals, | notary/medallion stamps). | | Discover customer service is fantastic, with friendly | interactive humans. I feel bad that Discover is not my main | bank - I was going that way until a binding arbitration | clause (with unreasonably short opt-out period) derailed | the relationship. Ally is adequate, with the "standard" | humans emulating robots relying on a case system. They will | promise to call/email you back but never will, so you have | to poll. Capital One 360 is at or below Ally - I had a poor | experience with them settling an IRA, but they're ending | their IRA business so who knows. | | Unfortunately the Discover web / app is the worst of the | three (although they support OFX Direct Connect last time I | checked). Ally and Cap1 are nice (although there are some | things you cannot do through the Cap1 web interface until | you find a hidden link to the old web interface, which is | still partially active). One standout feature of Cap1 is | that you can open a reasonable line of credit for overdraft | protection, if you don't generally have enough cash sitting | around in an adjacent savings account. | | P.S. I tried Alliant CU but was not impressed by their web | interface or the hoops required to login to the app. | Customer service seemed okay. Maybe in a different life. | | P.P.S. Ally Invest is a completely separate creature from | Ally Bank. I've had two different _horrendous_ experiences | with Ally Invest, and urge everyone to steer clear. The | reps sound like they know what they 're talking about | (holdovers from TradeKing I presume), but are completely | disconnected from the back office's procedures or | activities. | creeble wrote: | Do NOT use Cap1 for banking! | | I too was satisfied with my Cap1 cc account(s), tried their | banking, and it was a total disaster. I eventually got my | money out (through two systems that had been deprecated and | closed down, with no apparen't notice to me), and left $10 | in one account that still has paper statements - but no | ability to sign in to the account any more. | | I leave it alone to spite them. | reaperducer wrote: | _honestly Cap1 bank has been doing a pretty bang up job | with my CC 's_ | | What a coincidence. | | Last month, my wife called Cap1 to close two department | store credit card accounts she hasn't used in years. | | This morning, I'm doing the bills and in the letters are | two from Cap1 welcoming her to her _new_ department store | credit cards, here are all the terms and rates, and here 's | your first bill for $0. Happy spending! | alasdair_ wrote: | >google product manager: also a chat app | | This may be the best line I've read all year. | mdb31 wrote: | Yeah, this is why I don't miss living in the US, like, at all. | Sure, you can make mad cash and all, but the overall | infrastructure is just way-below-third-world. | | My particular moment of truth was when I noticed that my Pacific | Bell cell phone bills stopped arriving. The first month, the USPS | could possibly be to blame, but the second month, I called | Customer Service to figure out what was going on. | | So, first question, last 4 digits of your SSN. Answer, as ever: | 1234. Eh, no, WRONG, try again!? Eh, yes, my SSN ends in 1234?! | No, sorry, it does not, I cannot talk to you, bye! | | Eh, yes, okay... So, try again the next day, hopefully that agent | will be more clued in? Nope, no way, disconnected again. | | So, visited the PacBell store near my office. Same thing, the | person in the store is, like, visibly shaken after checking my | account. can't do anything to help me, can't tell me what is | wrong. | | TL;DR: my cell phone got disconnected (most likely for | nonpayment) after another month or so. Tried to sign up with | AT&T, but got denied, because my 'nonpayment' was already | recorded on my credit file, so, yeah. | | Ended up calling every number in the PacBell SoCal range, and | finally got through to someone who took pity on me and was | willing to listen to me, and got my account and credit restored. | | A few months later, PacBell drained my account by issuing | hundreds of direct debit orders for my monthly cellphone bill. | They eventually stopped doing that, but never reimbursed me for | any overdraft fees. I was almost evicted due to bounced checks | because of this, but nobody cared. | | I've lived most of my life therefore and after in the EU, and | while life here definitely is not perfect, I've NEVER had trivial | issues like the above almost cause me to be homeless. So, I guess | there's a startup idea in there somewhere? /s | swayvil wrote: | Add to that : | | Governmental policy dictated by social media forces controlled by | herds of solipsists I wouldn't trust to scratch their own arses. | | With the power of distributed censorship. All of the dystopia but | with nobody personally responsible for "being the hitler". | | With fun tools like "shadowbanning". Which censors you without | telling you why you were censored. Or even that you were | censored. | | And secret forbidden word lists! | | We're augmenting the powers of insects with digital technology. | This only creates giant insects. | | https://youtu.be/G8R9OoQh4q0 | nly wrote: | I've been trying to get my energy provider to change the | electricity meter serial number on my account for 4 months. The | meter was changed 2 years ago, hence reset to zero, and I now | can't provide them with readings because the current readings are | lower than the last. | | 4 months, 3 separate calls, 5 separate email threads. | | Even getting them to understand the problem is a huge challenge. | | It's just a fucking database entry for godsake. 30 years in to | the IT revolution and most businesses are still hopeless. | [deleted] | IgorPartola wrote: | I've been very happy with my credit union. Just saying. | limaoscarjuliet wrote: | The electronic statements are a blessing - just download and keep | a copy. Exactly same as with paper ones, but with fewer steps. | | All systems have their limits, but the current electronic ones | are much better than the mortar and paper of yesteryear. I just | finished renewing tags for my cars in 5 minutes from the comfort | of my home, as compared to 2 hour Tag Office visit 20 years ago. | (Happy bday to me!). | pwg wrote: | > Exactly same as with paper ones, but with fewer steps. | | Actually with more steps. | | Paper statements: | | Bank generates paper statement on appointed day (work/time | input by bank) | | Bank packages paper statement in envelope and mails it | (work/time input by bank) | | Postal service delivers paper statement to my mailbox | (work/time input by postal service) | | I open paper statement (work/time input by me) | | I scan paper statement (work/time input by me) (also can be | optional if one prefers simply filing paper statements) | | Electronic statement PDF's on bank website: | | Bank (maybe) sends an email saying "your statement is ready" | | I receive the email | | I have to now open my password manager (work/time by me) | | I have to log into bank website (work/time input by me) | | I have to navigate to the "download your statement area" (which | was designed to make the process of accessing the electronic | statement as obtuse as possible) (work/time input by me) | | I have to download the pdf (hopefully one click for me, but | still a bit of work/time by me) | | I have to rename the downloaded pdf to fit my filing convention | (since, at best, it downloads as "statement.pdf" from the bank) | | The major time input on my part with paper statements is the | "scan" part, all the rest happens without any involvement of | time, energy, or remembering it is "time" on my part. | | The electronic statement download requires I actively expend | time and effort to "go to their website, log in, find the | download section, find the statement, and initiate the | download". | | What I want to see, but no bank offers it, is exactly the same | flow as the paper/postal service, but substituting "email" for | "postal service" and "pdf" for "paper". I upload a GPG public | key, bank does the work of encrypting the pdf using my key and | emailing me a copy (which makes "electronic statement" the same | as paper, they do the work of remembering it is time and | initiating the transmission). Then I save the pdf attachment | from the email, decrypt it, and file it (saving the "scan" step | from the paper copy flow). | djrockstar1 wrote: | On the bright side, now that you have step by step | instructions for what needs to be done, you can hack together | a script that will take you more time than doing that process | manually would have for the rest of your life, but once you | do you won't have to do it ever again.* | | *unless the bank changes something about their | email/website/pdf and that breaks the script | jjnoakes wrote: | Or, perhaps more likely, a third party "security" | department contacted by the bank implements some AI-backed | system that notices your program scraping data and freezes | your account. | macinjosh wrote: | Find and use a local credit union. They will always have better | customer service. | | Avoid national and multi-national banks at all costs. You are | nothing to those banks and they will treat you like it. | datavirtue wrote: | I have all my loans now through credit unions. On purpose. | There are no drawbacks. | re wrote: | > someone on at a place in which you will never find a more | wretched hive of disruption and innovation, but also called | hacker news: hey we should found a startup that automatically | logs into peoples' bank accounts and downloads their statements | and then stores them on amazon s3 in a badly configured bucket | that's ultimately publicly accessible to the entire world and | then when that happens blame amazon for an opaque and insecure | management tool but instead it's obviously our fault for moving | fast and breaking things | | Is this a reference to something specific (like the Venmo | reference later on), or just to poor security practices and data | exposures in general? | [deleted] | xcambar wrote: | I only skimmed, but all of it vividly brought back memories I | thought were securely hidden from consciousness, for sanity | purposes. | KaiserPro wrote: | > someone from the UK: haha, you live in America | | Excellent, my job here is done. | | I also love the absolute nailing of startup/tech culture. | mindslight wrote: | > _you: if I don't give you a good rating in this survey will you | get fired?_ | | > _customer service agent: yes_ | | you: if I give negative feedback on the survey will any bank | procedures change? | | customer service agent: no | | /me gives good marks because the agent was friendly, despite | having no ability to accomplish things and the effective memory | of a goldfish with a ticket system. | | This is the way the world ends: not with a bang, but to the sound | of hold music. | pards wrote: | > just stay in your fucking lane | | This, a thousand times. It irks me when companies insist on | fucking with a product that was good enough already. | | At that point, they should scale down, sell it to an income fund | and move on. | | But no. The growth-hungry VCs ruin the product and alienate their | previously-loyal customers. | sgjohnson wrote: | Regarding financial institutions, AmEx is basically the only one | I enjoy dealing with. | | I've never had any issues with them. | datavirtue wrote: | Capital One is pretty solid in that you don't have to deal with | them because they have sane tech. It's the only bank that has | ever really helped me when I was in poverty. | darod wrote: | that wasn't a short conversation at all. | monktastic1 wrote: | A short conversation with Blue Shield of California last month: | | BS: Have a question? Ask us via this very useful secure messaging | form! | | Me: Great! Can you explain the difference between these two | arcane out-of-pocket limits that you display that are un- | Googleable and nowhere in your documentation that I can never | find anyway? | | BS: Sure! We will wait two days and then send you an email | suggestively titled "a response to your inquiry" that really just | contains an attached PDF with a link to a completely different | portal where you have to register a new account to download an | image of a scanned fax that tells you to call customer service | where you can wait on hold forever to answer whatever question it | was you had that we also don't remember! Yay secure messaging! | | Me: Wow such technology! I now very understand the difference | between "out of pocket max" and "max out of pocket max"! I feel | much secure that I won't go bankrupt the next time I have an | incident and get treated by the wrong doctor at the right | hospital! Thanks, 2022! | | Fin. | geoduck14 wrote: | I heard somewhere that telegraph is a legitimate form of | communication for some official routes - unless they aren't | specifically prohibited. Has anyone tried this? I would | _reallt_ like to force my bank to respond to my telegraphs... | or pony express letters | dan-robertson wrote: | At my university there was a rumour that you were still | allowed to submit your thesis in Latin. I think some people | were tempted to try it but I'm not aware of anyone who did | (or who pored over the regulations to find out if it was | true) | buttocks wrote: | In the US, telegram service ended in 2006! | https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna11147506 | ethbr0 wrote: | Generally, anything not-for-profit and older than 40 years is a | technological shit-show. | | There's neither the individual or management will to | successfully migrate or upgrade at the pace required. | Consequently, _everything_ is held together with duct tape and | person-hours. | dmitriid wrote: | > Generally, anything not-for-profit and older than 40 years | is a technological shit-show. | | Everything new is the same. Because everything has to be | disruptive innovative hockey stick growth bullshit. | | Here's a screenshot of tha app for a Swedish bank, Klarna: ht | tps://pbs.twimg.com/media/FHXG5bPX0AIC1oe?format=jpg&name=... | . They are a bank. They offer credit cards, and fast online | credit payments. | | And no, "Payments" isn't a list of your payments you've done | throught them, that's behind two or three clicks now. It's | what you owe them. | tvanantwerp wrote: | I worked for a 80+ year old non-profit. Their tech was | definitely a shit show before I turned it around. I won't be | surprised if it ends up degrades into a shit show again in a | decade or so. | professoretc wrote: | > get treated by the wrong doctor at the right hospital! | | In California, this shouldn't happen. If you go to an in- | network hospital, all care providers you see are required to | bill you at the in-network rate. | monktastic1 wrote: | Unfortunately, I don't actually live in California. | bfdm wrote: | Great, now just do the same thing for making all hospitals in | the state (and later the nation) forced to bill at "in | network" rates. then with a final step of capping the | premiums paid according to income with the rest automatically | covered by social programs, the USA might finally get to | something sort of like a sane healthcare system. | salawat wrote: | Oh wow. Blue Cross hosed that? | | Max Out of Pocket: This is the yearly maximum accumulation that | an insured individual must pay before the insurer takes on full | financial responsibility for subsequent claims. This comes in | generally one of two flavors: a family or individual. | | The individual is straightforward. If you have a MOOP of $1000, | and you've paid out $1000 in copays or coinsurance after | meeting your deductible on just you, you no longer owe any | contribution on claims for you, for that year. However, someone | else in your family on your insurance will have to have their | copays/coinsurance paid until either their individual MOOP is | hit, or between the two of you you accunulate enough for the | family MOOP to kick in, which depending on the nature of the | plan, will start covering expenses for everyone else in the | family unit. | | Out_of_pocket_max is likely the individual MOOP. | Max_out_of_pocket_max is probably a terribly named family or | Group MOOP. These should not be confused with policy or | lifetime maximums, which are caps to the amount of a specific | benefit the insurer is willing to pay out for you as an | individual period. | | I know for a fact places screw that all up. I spend a large | chunk of time making sure things like that do not stick around. | pinko wrote: | This is almost true: you will, in fact, be forever on the | hook for any medical expenses charged which exceed the | "reasonable" limits your insurer has set for each given | service, even after you've exceeded your MOOP. So if your | physical therapist charges $150/hour and your insurer | reimburses $120/hour, you'll still owe $60 OOP for two hours | of therapy even if you've exceeded your MOOP. Ask me how I | know. | salawat wrote: | Ah, but I bet if you look carefully, it's probably hidden | in the EOB or benefit booklet somewhere, if not, somebody | has dome writing to do. Even then, that is not a byproduct | of the insurance, but of the "Consent to be treated and | statement of patient financial responsibility" form that | you almost certainly signed when you went to the doctor. | That 120 dollars was still paid without coinsurance or | copay from you after MOOP was attained, your physician is | just falling back on what you signed to make up the | difference. | | I hate medical billing to the point I dove in to try to | figure out how it all works. | | Can you tell? | monktastic1 wrote: | https://imgur.com/a/t7M2RGv | | When I called, I was told that it's there to show that the | OOP max for in-network and out-of-network providers isn't | _summed_ to get my total OOP max; instead it 's just _equal_ | to my OON OOP max. (Of course, this plan makes it hard to go | bankrupt, unlike all ACA plans. That was a bit of literary | liberty.) | salawat wrote: | Ah... So they're differentiating MOOP levels they'll honor | based on the provider in question. | | I'm guessing they probably have some funneling arrangement | that recoups the extra spend they'd incur from the | potentially more frequent MOOP attainment in network. | | Cute, but it really kinda sidesteps the concept of "Max out | of pocket". I sense an MBA at work. | Tijdreiziger wrote: | Excuse me -- your yearly deductible is $10,000? Here I | thought EUR385 was a lot... | monktastic1 wrote: | No, the deductible is much lower. This is the maximum I | can spend out of pocket in a year. But most ACA | ("Obamacare") plans have no maximum for our of network | providers. | mgkimsal wrote: | I have 8 numbers (well... 6 and 2 'no max)... | | DED-INN/OON | | Me: $7k/$35k | | Fam: $14k/$70k | | OOP Max-INN/OON | | Me: $7k/no max | | Fam: $14k/no max | | I regret leaving my grandfathered plan from 2010 - every | year I got a threat saying it would be gone next year, | then magically one more 'extension' with a threat that it | would be gone next year again. And the price kept going | up. Switched to ACA plan and... I missed this 'no max' | stuff. Fingers crossed I don't need healthcare if I'm ... | you know, outside whatever 'network' might happen to take | me in for care. | akomtu wrote: | You probably pay way more in taxes. If I was given a | choice between (1) an additional 20% income tax and free | healthcare, or (2) crazy $10k/year out of pocket maximum, | I'll choose 2 without a blink. | Tijdreiziger wrote: | At the risk of turning this into a political debate -- | yes, you pay more taxes if you earn more, and less taxes | if you earn less. | | That's how a society is supposed to work: you don't leave | people to suffer because they aren't rich. | sneak wrote: | We don't use tax money to bulk buy food, or auto repair, | or fuel, or computers, or phones, or banking, or any | other modern good or service that is essential and | required for every member of society. | | Why do we do it for health care or health care insurance? | If the justification is "everyone needs it and you will | die without it" then shouldn't farms and supermarkets | also be public utilities? The line seems entirely | arbitrary to me. Water yes, but food no? Why education | and healthcare? Why not heating and electric power? | | The added benefit of letting people arrange it | individually is that those with a higher risk appetite | are not forced into it (at significant personal expense) | against their will/consent, too. | mgkimsal wrote: | And at some point, perhaps you'll still get reasonable | health care without it being tied to some employment | (whether or not you were/are highly paid). Much harder to | rely on that in the US. | Swizec wrote: | > go bankrupt /../ the wrong doctor at the right hospital | | This is the real problem. If we could solve _that_ , none of | the rest would be an issue. | Antipode wrote: | I thought that was already solved by the No Surprises Act | that went into effect this January. | geoduck14 wrote: | >I thought that was already solved by the No Surprises Act | that went into effect this January. | | Are you serious? Is this a real act? We need an act of | congress to not be surprised by health care? | mgkimsal wrote: | It seems that it is indeed real, but I suspect it will | take a while before it's common knowledge and actually | has teeth (but I'm a bit cynical). | alasdair_ wrote: | This sounds exactly like my kids school district. They send an | email telling you you have a "secure message" and you need to | log in to see it. So you try to sign up to see the message, but | can't because you don't have the password. So you try calling | them and they say they will reply via email. What they mean is | that they will send you a secure message about your inability | to receive secure messages. So you call again and they transfer | you to a number that is only open between 9am and 4pm on | weekdays. So you call back on Monday and, because this is the | start of term, can't get through, like, at all, ever. So | eventually on Wednesday you get through and they transfer you | again, only this time you manage to invoke XKCD 806 and get a | real person who knows how to "reset" the password you never set | in the first place. So you finally manage to log in to the | secure messaging portal and look at the email. Oh, it's a PDF | download. You download the PDF and see it's a physical letter | that has been scanned in to the system manually (seriously!). | The letter? The reason you went to all this trouble? It's a | welcome letter to the new "secure messaging" platform, with | instructions about how to reset your password... | IG_Semmelweiss wrote: | Banking, health insurance, education | | I see a trend! | yarky wrote: | Next time just fill out the "forgot your password" form. | alasdair_ wrote: | The one that asks for an email address and then tells you | that email address isn't in the system despite the same | system sending you email? Yeah, I did. Many times. | thereticent wrote: | It's hard to recover from the memories of wasted time, | effort, and frustration when the schools when distance- | learning only in 2020. | | "We will start using Google Classroom for all communication, | class materials, lesson videos, live meetings, and grades" | | Sure. Good. Come grade time: | | "Your child is missing a lot of work. It's all due in a | week." | | Kid, you have to do x,y,z missing assignments listed on | Google Classroom. | | "Your child has already completed x." | | It was marked missing on Google Classroom. | | "Please refer to Infinite Campus to see which assignments are | missing." | | Ok...I signed up for Infinite Campus, and I don't see | anything. | | "Did you use the user/pass we automatically created for each | parent?" | | What? No. | | "Sir, we sent out this information weeks ago." | | Search...search...manual search...I don't see it on Google | Classroom. | | "Oh, we sent it through ClassDojo." | | --- | | This is very simplified. Google Classroom required teacher- | provided codes to join "classes" for each subject, provided | through...school email! School email is an unused morass for | Google Classroom notification emails for every action your | child or their teacher makes. Get a teacher message on | ClassDojo? Sorry, can't tell if it was a mass message or | directed at you, so you have to clarify whether it applies to | your kid given their IEP. Got two parents using Dojo? Sorry, | can't see if the other parent has already responded to a | teacher message. Completed an assignment on Classroom but | didn't click "Turn in"? Missing. Can't find where to enter | answers? Oops, your child knows to use | ImagineMathExploreLinkConnect to get to that material. | Completed on that fourth-party platform, but didn't go back | to Classroom to click "Turn in?" Missing. Triple checked | everything but still a bunch of missing assignments in | Infinite Campus? Teacher is behind on grading, and there's no | way to know that, either from Infinite Campus or Google | Classroom, but it was in the class newsletter we emailed to | your child. | | Maybe not all employers, but at least mine does not realize | quite how much further parents fell behind that year than | those without school-age kids, on balance. | | When schools excitedly announce a new platform for learning | anything, I want to punch myself in the face. | corey_moncure wrote: | I hear you man. For me the most frustrating part about all | of this is each platform comes with its own algorithmic | placement system that has to learn your kid's level. My | eldest kid has high-IQ exceptional needs, and by the time | the algorithms would learn her level and place her | accurately where she would make some progress, the | classroom had already moved on to the next platform. I | think I counted five different platforms for math in the | past year, sometimes with multiple different logins on the | same platform. It's a travesty and her growth has come to a | complete halt since I stopped teaching her and gave her | back to the school. My heart breaks but what can you do. As | a kindergartener she was factorizing numbers in the bathtub | and now as a third grader "Xtra Math" is asking her to | identify whether a shape is a triangle or a circle. | [deleted] | dpcx wrote: | Anybody got a link to that github repo that the article alluded | to? ... asking for a friend :) | thrawaybanksup wrote: | Disclaimer: I work in a bank and have worked closely with the | customer support team. | | Here's the thing: retail banking margin is actually quite low and | customer support is expensive. | | If you are someone who routinely calls your bank then your long- | term value (LTV) is going to take a huge hit, so, of course banks | want to keep everything as "low-touch" as possible. | | A small anecdote: there were plenty of elderly people who were | calling customer support every day to ask for their balance, | because they did not trust the digital app. At some point, their | calls started being routed to some chat-bot. | | Customer support is also "embarrassingly outsource-able". The | first layer of contact is usually done by someone who does not, | in fact, work for "The Bank". They are actually employed by some | huge contact center company who happens to have access to the | bank's Salesforce CRM, and are instructed on how to solve most of | complaints. It's only when they are faced with a very specific | issue, that the ticket is then escalated to the in-bank | operations team. | | IIRC, we actually divide tickets in four categories: "L1, L2, L3 | and L4". L1 and L2 are done by outsourced teams, L3 is usually | the bank's operations squad, and L4 is the tech team with read- | access to the database. | immibis wrote: | > Here's the thing: retail banking margin is actually quite low | and customer support is expensive. | | Is this because banks don't need retail money any more, since | instead of acting as intermediaries between savers and | borrowers, they now act as intermediaries between the Federal | Reserve and borrowers, and only take savings because they're | required to by law? | geoduck14 wrote: | Banking has shifted from low-volume high-profit (read: A | bunch of rich people) to high-volume low-profit (read: normal | folk and some poor people). | | The reason why margin is low... is because _you_ are the | customer. I know many people feel "poor people are unbanked" | and the industry is going in the direction to support them, | but it also means banks have to find ways to get money from | poor people and reduce costs _everywhere_ possible. | | Source: I used to work at a top 10 bank | hackerfromthefu wrote: | While I appreciate this argument, I feel it's disingenuous. | | The reason is that this problem doesn't just apply to banks, it | applies to every goddamn service I try to make contact with | these days. | | The systems are setup to waste a users time so only by showing | a large commitment of time and emotional frustration can you | get to talk to a human. | | The net result is massive waste of everyone's time. It's a race | to the bottom situation, and it's a societal problem, companies | do it to compete. | | But if your competition didn't do this hostile user | gaslighting, then you wouldn't either. Or if instead of wasting | 30 minutes average time before talking to someone with agency, | the time was reduced to 5, or even 10 minutes. | | I think the answer is regulation, that the mean or median | average for time to speak to a live human should be no more | than x (I propose 10 minutes), combined with an ombusdman to | report companies that hide behind automated systems instead of | do support, and if the average response time goes over allowed | limit, or more than y percent of users report a company for not | having a way to address their actual problem, then that company | should pay a financial penalty, to it's users pro-rata. If the | penalty is balanced, this way companies would actually share | the cost of the people's time they are wasting. | zippergz wrote: | One problem I've observed first hand is that the head of | customer service is measured on (among other things) the | amount of money being spent on customer service (and other | closely-related metrics like average contacts per order, | agent time spent per customer, etc.). These executives have | no direct control over the product, so they can't actually | solve the problems that are causing people to contact | customer service. For example, they aren't in charge of the | warehouses, so if for example a ton of people are calling in | because they are getting the wrong item in the orders, the CS | leader is getting dinged in their metrics but can't address | the root cause. | | This leads them to do things like those being discussed, | where they take measures to reduce contacts without solving | any real problems. Maybe if "customer satisfaction" were a | more important metric than "CS budget," this would be better, | but customer satisfaction is very hard to actually measure | (how many of us even bother filling out surveys, and of those | who do, how many are honest?). | | I guess a lot of this boils down to "big company syndrome" | where the customer experience is controlled by a series of | interlocking factors, but the humans who control those | factors are siloed and disincentivized to work together to | improve things. My experience is that in most of these | situations, people actually do have good intentions overall. | You wouldn't believe the ways I've heard CS executives twist | themselves into knots to convince people that outsourced or | automated customer service is actually better for the | customer (and I think they truly did believe it, or at least | had fooled themselves into believing it). But the end result | is bad for everyone. | hackerfromthefu wrote: | Which is why we need regulation tied to actual financial | performance of the business. | | So that when they try to externalize the costs they end up | paying for it instead, enough to influence the business to | change, to fix the root cause of the problem. | Eddy_Viscosity2 wrote: | This is funny, but also not funny because of its truth. | blibble wrote: | the existence of a terrible bank doesn't mean they're all awful | | like any market, there are competently run companies and there | are terrible ones (e.g. HSBC) | 4pkjai wrote: | I run a website that converts PDF bank statements into CSV | files. HSBC customers are a big source of revenue. They only | provide PDFs. | dylan604 wrote: | Can you please name for me any that you think _are_ good? | gravypod wrote: | There are quite a few local credit unions that I've heard | good things about. Some are run in a way that all the profits | are equally divided by the account holders (after expenses | like comp for the employees). Some also offer credit cards | and mortgages. | | Credit Unions are usually hyper-local or for special interest | groups so you'd need to look around by you. | treis wrote: | Charles Schwab has been great for me. Specifically for the | stuff in the article, statements back to when I opened it in | 2012 are available in my portal and their bill pay worked | flawlessly for me. On top of that, they have US based | customer support, they refund atm fees, and their fees are | about the lowest out there. | | The only downside that I've run into is that they don't have | branches that take cash deposits. | datavirtue wrote: | Capital One. Only bank that actually ever helped me when I | had nothing. | coffeefirst wrote: | Yep. And the good ones tend to be smaller or regional chains. | | At a certain size you just become too big to be competent, and | the incentives get FUBAR. After that they don't really care | about customer satisfaction because they're really focused on | investors or the next 1mm corporate customers. | Anon1096 wrote: | If you're looking for good technical support and features | you're not going to get it with your local credit union, | they're even worse than the major banks. | b3morales wrote: | If my local credit union has an accessible branch office | where I can speak to a human who can assist me, I have no | need for technical support. Which is the way I prefer it | anyways. Most financial corp tech that I've had to deal | with has been trapped in an uncanny valley, doing a | horrifying ineffective mimicry of secure services and | account management. If they're incapable of crossing the | divide to being actually good, I'd rather they'd just stay | on the no-tech side. | coffeefirst wrote: | Eh, the bigger banks I use have slicker websites, but not | necessarily more functional websites. | | Of course, we're talking about thousands of small | institutions, they're going to vary wildly. | antsar wrote: | > there are competently run companies | | You're just gonna leave us hanging like that? | blibble wrote: | I thought about it but I don't want to reveal who I bank with | | sorry :) | dylan604 wrote: | Then why even bother? Really? You bank with some one that | you feel like is good, but you won't tell people the name? | Fine, you think that reveals TMI. Then don't tell us who | you bank with, but tell us what bank you feel is good and | the maybe some supporting reasons. You could do that | without, "that's who I bank with". | | Otherwise, this was a completely wasted/pointless use of | electrons. | tbihl wrote: | The question, though: is that to avoid more targeted | attacks against you (like not telling people you own gold | or bitcoin) or to avoid your bank becoming so successful | that they can use their market position to become abusive | to customers (like not telling people where you get your | news on the off chance that you have a trustworthy source | of news)? | blibble wrote: | former | AdamH12113 wrote: | As someone trying to get pre-approved for a mortgage with | effectively no credit history, I'm really feeling the lack of old | account statements. | layer8 wrote: | Man, today's world (I hesitate to call it "modern") is so | depressing in so many ways, and there are just no improvements in | sight... humor is the only refuge. | mprovost wrote: | also a chat app | bryanrasmussen wrote: | I've had this conversation only there was a lot more inarticulate | screaming because going through stress related issues on other | things that the bank was just the thinnest layer of icing on. | jaqalopes wrote: | It's so eldritch. I've found dealing with the healthcare system | is similar. Any business that you need more than they need you, | this happens. There really should be consumer protections about | this but I have no idea how that would even be implemented. | gorbachev wrote: | I was just about to comment the same. | | I recently needed to make several medical appointments with a | large healthcare provider. They had FOUR different online | portals to "manage" my appointments and information. Navigating | that was the exact same experience as the article, just without | an actual person. | crispyambulance wrote: | Banks, of course, can be awful. | | However, if you can develop an in-person face-to-face rapport | with someone at a bank, you'll find that they can bypass, | sometimes, much of the infuriating petty bureaucracy. | | I once had a bank employee print almost a ream of statements on | the spot for me. I was almost in tears from the generosity of | their time and effort. This was after going to a different branch | an being told it would cost hundreds of dollars and take weeks | because it was a "back-office" job. | reaperducer wrote: | Always ALWAYS _ALWAYS_ be nice to service people. | | You never know when you might need them. | | Also, ALWAYS be nice to janitors, maids, maintenance staff, | front desk people, security guards, etc. | | You should make anyone with access to a set of keys your | friend. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-03-12 23:00 UTC)