[HN Gopher] Electric fields, not individual neurons, may hold in...
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Electric fields, not individual neurons, may hold information in
memory: study
Author : hhs
Score : 55 points
Date : 2022-03-13 16:15 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (picower.mit.edu)
(TXT) w3m dump (picower.mit.edu)
| doctoboggan wrote:
| Mike Levin is exploring a related idea that bio generated
| electromagnetic fields are used to guide body regeneration in
| worms
|
| https://wyss.harvard.edu/news/mike-levin-on-electrifying-ins...
| gryn wrote:
| this reminds of a brain fart I had long time ago back when I was
| taking an EE course about electromagnetic compatibility &
| interference.
|
| how resilient is the brain and it's surrounding casing to outside
| electromagnetic interference ?
|
| can there one day be some jamming tool strong enough to just
| crash a brain without doing physical damage first ? where it
| would just brick a human, but a physician examining it would find
| relatively nothing wrong at the physical layer .
| plutonorm wrote:
| I read a paper a long time ago that recorded the brain waves
| from one person doing a skilled task and then played that
| recording to an unskilled person as they performed the same
| task. They replayed the electromagnetic field of the skilled
| person on the outside of the skull of an unskilled person.
|
| They found that there was an improvement in skill levels in the
| untrained person. Intriguing.
| mateo1 wrote:
| Although it is a very interesting paper, and I am by no means
| qualified to even understand half of it, while reading up
| representational drift I was much more convinced by another (and
| a bit more recent) paper portraying the phenomenon as a way for
| the brain to switch up the physical layout of the firing neurons
| in a redundant population without altering the output. All that
| possibly for biological reasons (ie dead neurons or perhaps
| repairs). Saying information is stored in electrical fields just
| doesn't sit right with me. I have a hard time imagining them
| being more robust than spikes, or really usable inside the brain
| because of the physics involved.
| king-geedorah wrote:
| I know it's not a similar mechanism but I can't help but think
| how this parallels the discovery made by of main character in the
| short story Exhalation by Ted Chiang
| anonporridge wrote:
| Ref, https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/41160292
|
| Looks interesting, thanks!
| Angostura wrote:
| If this is correct, might it explain how and why
| electroconvulsive therapy works and how it can lead to the loss
| of memory. Presumably it would completely disrupt the stable
| memory field, even if it left the physical structures intact. The
| brain woul be reconstructing the field from first principles.
| swayvil wrote:
| Can we make an artificial neuron? And then plug it into your
| brain along with all the others. Have we done that?
| levitatorius wrote:
| Aaaand the ultimate question: if electric fields are controlling
| the neurons, what (or who?) contols the electric fields?
| hirundo wrote:
| This is why they mock my tin foil hat; it threatens their
| control.
| rdevsrex wrote:
| It immediately makes me think of idealism and panpsychism. Not
| saying that's what reality is, but it makes me think that it
| could be.
| 323 wrote:
| It could be bidirectional control. The electric field acts as a
| feedback control.
| miamalkova wrote:
| The electric field is generated by neurons as they fire action
| potentials, but it is rather the aggregate electrical activity
| that is used to represent memories, rather than the summative
| signals from individual neurons.
| taberiand wrote:
| And if I understood the article correctly, the important idea
| is that the field is (relatively) stable even as the
| underlying neurons involved change and they don't even have
| to be the same neurons involved for the same memory field.
|
| The illusion of a stable single entity emergent from the
| constant flux of billions of individual living units linked
| through trillions of connections is in my opinion the answer
| to the question of consciousness (and also an answer to the
| question 'can machines ever be conscious', which is without a
| doubt - yes).
|
| It might also pose the question then, could humanity as a
| whole - as a global connection of billions of individuals -
| be thought of as a conscious entity? Well, maybe not -
| where's the stable field?
| hosh wrote:
| There was a story I heard about the autistic guy who volunteered
| for transcranial magnetic stimulation. Those have been known to
| temporarily shift someone autistic into a consciousness state
| that is more neurotypical. In his case (and it is the only
| documented case), it was permanent.
|
| He wrote a book about it. His marriage ended because of it (he
| had been a reliable emotional support for his wife while
| autistic), but he also became a lot closer to his son.
|
| I think we're only scratching the surface here, and even that,
| there are wide-ranging implications.
| phaedrus wrote:
| This is interesting because I recently read of a theory that
| clinical depression is actually an altered state of
| consciousness, like dreaming or being under the influence of
| psychedelic drugs. It seems to explain a lot about depression
| as well as posing the question what other things might be an
| altered state of consciousness.
|
| I predict if we're successful in creating general AI and/or
| artificial consciousness, we'll uncover a veritable zoo of
| different, altered states of consciousness much like how the
| standard model of particle physics revealed many more
| particles.
| hackerbee wrote:
| Your comment immediately reminded me of Marvin the paranoid
| android from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.
| anothernewdude wrote:
| That always bothered me. He wasn't paranoid, he was
| depressed.
| iszomer wrote:
| Depressed by design.
| hosh wrote:
| I could say a lot more about this, but this would slip into
| what people would consider as woo.
|
| So without treading there, I am just going to say, I think
| this field-effect of neurons will lead to discoveries about
| field-effect of all cells, not just neurons; that
| consciousness is not exclusive to neurons; and how
| acupuncture (at a mechanical level) might work.
| plutonorm wrote:
| All thoughts are altered states of consciousness. A
| collection of self reinforcing thoughts that represent an
| instance of depression are a state of consciousness in the
| same way that experiencing sun on your skin is a state of
| consciousness. All is qualia and we move between states of
| qualia like fish through an ocean.
| syspec wrote:
| Do you have a link or some key words I could use to try and
| find that story?
| mwint wrote:
| Perhaps it's
| https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/29974430-switched-on# ?
| hosh wrote:
| I found this:
| https://www.kqed.org/futureofyou/150161/experimental-
| treatme...
|
| It wasn't the article I read, but that should have a lot of
| leads.
| noasaservice wrote:
| That only strengthens my theory that why most of the autistics
| and neurodivergent people are considered disabled is because of
| neurotypicals. When a ND isn't precise with their words, expect
| us to read into context, and then get angry when we don't
| understand - that's on them, not us.
| whatshisface wrote:
| NTs can either read in to context or willfully ignore it
| (choose to act as if they haven't noticed), while autistic
| people always have to act without that information. It is
| kind of like wheelchairs and ramps - people who can climb
| stairs are strictly better off than people who can only go up
| ramps, but a society with ramps isn't any less capable than
| one where you have to climb a ladder to get to your office.
| plutonorm wrote:
| I disagree, that tuning into detail and avoidance of the
| context allows more brain power to be applied to the
| detail.
| anothernewdude wrote:
| That's because language is built on imprecision and context.
| It's a feature of language.
| timdiggerm wrote:
| It's true, blind people are only considered disabled because
| of sighted people.
|
| I am not sure this is the convincing argument you think it
| is, however.
| hosh wrote:
| There is a very well-articulated argument by an autistic
| woman that, the clinical definitions for autism are framed
| from the disruption and impact to neurotypical society, but
| does not adequately address what's going on for the
| autistic person.
|
| For example, the author herself is diagnosed with high-
| functioning autism. Her social impact on others is miminal
| enough where it qualifies for "high functioning", but
| having executive dysfunction means she is highly dependent
| on someone in her life to help her. Our medical and social
| system does not provide adequate services because she is
| "high functioning".
|
| She then talked about other people with a different blend
| of autistic traits who are considered low functioning (high
| impact on neurotypical social interactions), but don't have
| the executive dysfunction like the author. Her example was
| someone who is non-verbal, yet has a well-developed
| intellect.
|
| I too, thought the idea that "autistic people are disabled
| because neurotypical people considers autism is a
| disability" was not very convincing. This author's argument
| reframed it in a way that makes more sense to me, and that
| is, us neurotypicals are only seeing autism only from the
| lens of how autism impacts us, and we frame the discussion,
| diagnoses, and public policies along those lines.
| jajag wrote:
| This aligns somewhat with Johnjoe McFadden's ideas about the role
| of the brain's electromagnetic field:
| https://aeon.co/essays/does-consciousness-come-from-the-brai...
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