[HN Gopher] Medical student surgically implants Bluetooth into o...
___________________________________________________________________
Medical student surgically implants Bluetooth into own ear to cheat
in final
Author : softwarebeware
Score : 395 points
Date : 2022-03-14 17:57 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.independent.co.uk)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.independent.co.uk)
| cushychicken wrote:
| In a roundabout way: surgically implanting electronics arguably
| qualifies the perpetrator.
|
| Though, I suppose if this was a test of their skill in cosmetic
| surgery, then detection certainly _would_ count as a failure.
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| First, there's no reason to think the student implanted it
| themselves.
|
| Second, I think most amateurs could probably cut someone open,
| put something in and stitch it up. Not causing further
| complications would be the hard part.
| endisneigh wrote:
| Should've just used Anki religiously for a year or so instead.
|
| Speaking of cheating though, I heard they have directional
| speakers that have a spread of only like a foot. With something
| like that it seems like it'd be easy to cheat.
| gowld wrote:
| 11 years, per the article.
| jerf wrote:
| "Speaking of cheating though, I heard they have directional
| speakers that have a spread of only like a foot. With something
| like that it seems like it'd be easy to cheat."
|
| Yeah, but they still spread enough to be audible, and the
| reflections are audible as well. In a testing environment it
| would be hard to completely hide.
|
| I'm surprised so many people speak of these as something they
| haven't experienced. I recall at least two grocery stores I've
| been in using these to beam ads at people while they were in
| line, and that was years ago, and I'm not in SV either, it's
| not like people around here use cutting edge tech for the heck
| of it very often. Mercifully, they didn't last long. While I
| didn't enjoy the ads, I did enjoy the opportunity to hear
| exactly how they work and get a sense of their strengths and
| weaknesses.
|
| (It is absolutely true that they are _garbage_ at bass
| frequencies, and the lower midrange as well. The ads were all
| voiced by women, because I 'm not sure men would even have been
| comprehensible. I mean that literally. Their lowest frequency
| response is that high. As clever as they are it's not a
| surprise we don't hear them more often. They are super
| specialist gear not suitable for most tasks.)
| beebmam wrote:
| Cheating in college should be punishable with prison and heavy
| fines. It's essentially fraud. I certainly don't think doctors
| who earn their credentials through cheating should be allowed to
| practice in any sense
| pjbeam wrote:
| You want to take someone's freedom for cheating on an exam?
| That doesn't sit well with me at all.
| tylergetsay wrote:
| Theres no freedom to be a doctor
| beebmam wrote:
| The same could be said for people who fudge numbers to lie
| about income. Yes, honest society deserves to be protected
| from these frauds.
| oceanplexian wrote:
| If cheating with some bluetooth headset actually worked,
| something is deeply broken with your academic system. All that
| it proves is that you give out participation awards to people
| who can memorize facts over actual problem solving.
| Memorization doesn't take a lot of intelligence.
| ghaff wrote:
| My understanding is that there is quite a bit of memorization
| associated with certain things in medical school such as
| anatomy.
| digitallyfree wrote:
| If the implant played back an audio recording of his notes or
| something, then sure. But if it allowed the student to
| communicate with a medical expert during the exam, then even
| an open-book exam not requiring memorization could be
| exploited that way.
| tmp_anon_22 wrote:
| Its an open secret that tutors do a significant portion of work
| for star athletes, to say nothing about punishments being
| different for international students caught cheating.
| slothtrop wrote:
| Cheats are usually foreigners who pay more tuition, so they
| tolerate it. Pay-to-win.
| cgrealy wrote:
| There's a shocking amount of racism in this thread.
| mbg721 wrote:
| If I've learned anything from Columbo, it's that college
| students who cheat on exams eventually bite off more than they
| can chew by rigging their Jeep to shoot their criminology
| professor, and get their comeuppance from a wily homicide
| lieutenant who pretends to be their clueless buddy. So really
| you just have to bide your time.
| ugh123 wrote:
| Great episode! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2maqg-LSE5s
| pessimizer wrote:
| I think that cheating also causes a lot of programs to _price
| cheating in_ , i.e. make the course harder because the cheating
| they don't detect gives them excessive expectations of
| students.
|
| I saw this in my CS program (and heard about it from other
| programs.) None of the classes taught people to program, they
| just expected people to know how already, and as a pretense
| assigned everyone a programming instruction book (in the
| program's official language) that was never covered through
| lecture. The non-programmers would immediately start falling
| behind and cheating together to tread water. I definitely saw
| people graduate who had no ability to program; they were busy
| enough figuring out how to cheat.
|
| an aside: CS programs are spoiled by hobbyist programmers like
| me who learned for fun when they were children, and they act as
| if everyone was a hobbyist. Plenty of people entering CS were
| just comfortable with math and liked playing video games. They
| foolishly expected to learn how to program at programming
| school.
| pugworthy wrote:
| I guess with my fully BTE integrated hearing aids I'd be
| suspected of cheating. If they even knew I had them on.
|
| If you're not familiar with modern behind the ear hearing aids,
| Bluetooth is pretty common on better ones. It's like ear buds in
| an extremely discrete for that also happen to help you hear
| normally.
| beeskneecaps wrote:
| That's so interesting. I (and I imagine many other people)
| wouldn't have the guts to confront you about removing your
| hearing aid, even if I knew that they had bluetooth
| capabilities.
| thraway3837 wrote:
| Must be from a wealthy family to afford medical school for 11
| years. What kind of lie do you even tell the person who writes
| the checks? And wouldn't be it awkward AF to be 11 years older
| than everyone around you when students are 17-21? Even more
| embarrassing to have every staff and professor know you for this.
|
| The whole university and community knows, what are you really
| benefiting by keeping their name private. Publicize their face
| and name. Plaster it on every news site. Nobody wants a doctor
| who cheated in medical school. Also surprising because
| universities have dual tracks for graduating that most people
| don't know about. If you are wealthy or well connected, you get
| to graduate regardless of academic performance. Some professors
| also get kickbacks, threats, stopped favors if students aren't
| allowed to graduate. Perhaps the current administration of the
| school is not politically or power aligned with this student's
| connections?
| raincom wrote:
| Another story [1] from 2017, where some guy who already cheated
| to become an IPS officer, tried to cheat again to become IAS. IPS
| (Indian Police Service), IAS(Indian Administrative Service), etc
| are legacy of the British Raj and their ICS (Indian civil
| service). Once you get through these exams, you will end being
| the top level bureaucrats in India. These officials collude with
| ministers to become super rich.
|
| https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/ips-officer-caught-che...
| bitwize wrote:
| If he did it himself I think he deserves extra credit, even if he
| gets a zero on the exam.
| MichaelRazum wrote:
| Oh boy. There are obvious better ways...
| chucknthem wrote:
| YC interviewer: "Please tell us about the time you most
| successfully hacked some (non-computer) system to your
| advantage?"
|
| Medical student: "one time I hacked my ear..."
| newsclues wrote:
| The failure of ethics is most troubling, because how can we solve
| it?
| textcortex wrote:
| Just give the guy the Diploma, he deserved it :)
| whateveracct wrote:
| Not surprising. A lot of med students are status- and money-
| seeking people first and foremost.
|
| That's why you gotta shop around for doctors when you can and
| evaluate them as people.
| ramesh31 wrote:
| At what point will we start to accept human cybernetic
| enhancement as legitimate? We are literally one technological
| step away from all humans being able to communicate
| telepathically. Society is going to have to adapt to this
| reality. If a test can be gamed this easily, then it is a very
| poor test and I would not trust its' filtering ability at all
| moving forward. Rote learning will be a thing of the past once we
| are all augmented with the entirety of human knowledge accessible
| by thought.
| oblio wrote:
| We are "one technological step" away from many things.
|
| Fermat's last theorem was formulated in 1637 and proven in
| 1995, 358 years later. In those 358 years we can assume that at
| least 4 very long lived generations of people lived (more like
| 6-10 based on average life expectancies at the time).
|
| Being "close" to something doesn't mean anything. Doing it is
| the real challenge. Everything before that is wishful thinking.
| cgrealy wrote:
| Even if we don't have direct computer to brain comms yet, the
| fact remains that most people now have constant access to any
| information accessible on the internet.
|
| At some point, we are going to have to figure out how to test
| understanding instead of knowledge.
|
| I distinctly remember being asked "what is the win32 function
| that does X" in an interview many years ago. My answer was
| "no idea, that's what msdn is for".
| CraneWorm wrote:
| > Students getting caught in mass cheating or deploying sly means
| to not get caught is not uncommon in India where competition is
| fierce as aspirants outnumber the number of vacancies for a job
| and seats in colleges for courses.
|
| I'd like to read a long form piece on this subject. What's being
| done about it? India is a huge country, they need specialists no
| doubt!
| genedan wrote:
| Economically, this puzzles me. I'd think that if quantity
| supplied were so high the equilibrium wage would drop to the
| point where excess people would stop trying to become doctors,
| or at least to the point where surgically implanting things
| wouldn't be worth the hassle. Is there something in India
| propping up wages for those professions?
| SkittyDog wrote:
| Because it's not a "free market". The supply of doctors is
| legally limited... It's illegal to practice medicine without
| being licensed. And the number of licenses granted is
| limited.
|
| The license limits could be direct, like taxi medallions in
| New York City... Or the limits can be indirect, like how the
| AMA defines the number of medical residencies in the United
| States.
|
| Even in supposedly "free market" countries like the United
| States, we often have significant restrictions on all sorts
| of markets. The reasons vary.
| sdeframond wrote:
| Maybe the number of licenses issued is limited by law? It is
| the case in France for example.
| thawaya3113 wrote:
| What matters is not the number of doctors but the number of
| doctors per capita.
|
| India has both low number of doctors per capita, and low
| supply for educating doctors.
| SQueeeeeL wrote:
| You'd also think the 40 hour work week would be a thing of
| the past with automation. People are just very good at
| building walked gardens and elite communities while forcing
| others to be "lower class"
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| I would bet the demand for people highly educated and
| trained in medicine far exceeds the number of people able
| or willing to become highly educated and trained in
| medicine.
| engineeringwoke wrote:
| What would make you think that? The supply of doctors is
| artificially restricted in every country that I know of;
| it's pretty much a universal mark of privilege. In the
| United States, residency spots basically don't grow and
| it's very good for over-allocating doctor's salaries.
| Same in Germany, where they love their well-paid doctors
| and big hospitals.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| Based on how much discipline (or lack thereof) people
| have to learn. Or maybe simply lack the innate ability.
| Not even all the people motivated enough to pass all the
| hurdles to get into medical school graduate from medical
| school.
|
| That is not the perfect proof, but I am also coloring it
| with my anecdotal data about which percentage of kids
| were enthusiastic to learn any advanced topics in school
| such as math, physics, chemistry, much less memorize a
| metric ton of advanced biology information.
|
| It is true that supply is artificially restricted in the
| US, of course. In many ways, not least which is an
| unnecessarily expensive and lengthy certification
| process. But I cannot imagine anyone with the average
| discipline being able to come close to a full fledged MD.
| SkittyDog wrote:
| I can understand why you might think this, but you're
| factually incorrect in this case.
|
| In the United States, the supply of medical doctors is
| artificially limited by state laws that prohibit the
| practice of medicine without a license. Licensing
| requires successful completion of an accredited medical
| residency program, which on turn requires completing an
| MD degree from an accredited medical school. The American
| Medical Association and similar state-level groups
| effectively control the number of residency and med
| school slots by controlling the accreditation process.
|
| Most of the rest of the world has similar systems in
| place, including India.
|
| On the one hand, the AMA system has been described as a
| means of guaranteeing the quality of doctors, and
| preventing unsuspecting patients from being hurt, killed,
| or defrauded by poorly trained doctors.
|
| On the other hand, it's also been described as cartel
| designed to allow doctors to charge inflated prices for
| medical care, by limiting the supply of doctors, and
| extracting unreasonable rent from the public.
|
| Most economists would agree that both descriptions are
| basically correct.
| trophycase wrote:
| It's kind of a common thing these days to pretend like
| anybody is smart enough to do anything.
| daniel-cussen wrote:
| In Chile it's not artificially restricted, or to anything
| nearly the same level. Doctors can still make a lot of
| money, they just have to be really good. Medicine then
| becomes 10-100 times cheaper, in that range.
|
| German doctors I believe make under 100 grand.
| engineeringwoke wrote:
| Before specialization, yes. And private practice is a lot
| more, but getting the license is a pain. However, that is
| still very well paid in a country where you have such
| great benefits. The American sticker price salaries are
| not honest when you have to pay for so many things out of
| pocket (healthcare and education, just to start). I have
| lived and worked in the US and EU.
| pempem wrote:
| The ability to immigrate elsewhere with incentives skills
| from countries not incentivizing the growth of their own
| medical field for a number of reasons.
| [deleted]
| gunfighthacksaw wrote:
| It's unfortunate because the exam cheater is such a prevalent
| stereotype, yet I have worked with many people from India who
| were deep thinkers with a love of their subject.
|
| I wonder how many potential visionaries get filtered by
| association with these cheaters as well as more traditional
| racism.
| conradev wrote:
| This is a problem in the US:
| https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/4561/does-the-a...
| colinmhayes wrote:
| The doctor shortage in the US is because current law
| effectively limits the number of residency slots to 100k,
| pushing out foreign graduates who may have earned a spot and
| causing medical schools to expand slower than they would like
| due to fear of not matching graduates.
| YossarianFrPrez wrote:
| "The Mystery of India's Deadly Exam Scam" is an excellent piece
| on the subject:
| https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/17/the-mystery-of...
| supercheetah wrote:
| The hyper competitiveness seems to be a problem. I'm not sure
| what the answer is, but students need a way to be able fail
| honestly without shame so that when they do succeed, they do so
| without needing to cheat.
| kodah wrote:
| He'd been taking the test for 11 years, that seems like
| allowing them to fail honestly.
| to1y wrote:
| He started at the university 11 years ago.
| firebird wrote:
| It's a cultural thing. It's literally a do or die situation
| for everyone to do well in school. Or you would have shamed
| your family. But, things are getting better, as cultural
| expectations are subsiding. I think in the next couple
| decades, India will be on par with the West in terms of
| social expectations as the average gross income and GDP of
| the country continues to go up. I think China is starting to
| see the same thing now.
| sonicggg wrote:
| This is probably way more pervasive than we imagine.
|
| Several years ago they uncovered a large SAT cheating scheme, out
| of Thailand. They even made a movie about it :
| https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/bad_genius
|
| And that was using way more rudimentary technology. There are a
| lot of rich kids willing to pay their way to a deegre.
| eligro91 wrote:
| I'm having cochlear implant and I'm able to hear sounds using a
| neckloop same as displayed in this video
| https://youtu.be/Gu2C6frbW18?t=130
|
| So basically I'm able to control my processor and during boring
| meetings or family events, I can switch to T mode and listen to
| music / podcasts, without anyone noticing that. I can even having
| it balanced.. 50%/50% , or 80% / 20% etc..
|
| I'm sure that it would be so useful in cheating in exams.. hard
| to identify.. you have aid hearing, they never expect you will
| cheat with that.
|
| I'm wondering what will happen if Deaf people will be caught
| doing that? they won't be allowed to hear at all during exams?
| matt_s wrote:
| Can a deaf person be a surgeon if their mode of communicating
| is with their hands?
|
| That sounds cool to be able to tune out of boring meetings
| easily. I imagine the number of podcasts you can listen to is
| more than most people, any favorites related to software?
| jupp0r wrote:
| Time for exams that test your understanding of the field instead
| of just test whether you have crammed a lot of unrelated facts
| into your brain.
| [deleted]
| twayt wrote:
| A lot of people are missing the bigger point here.
|
| This person was just one who got caught. The likelihood that
| they're the first one to think or do this is very low.
|
| There are probably more sophisticated ways of using tech to cheat
| and I would be very surprised if they haven't been employed in
| high stakes exams like this before.
| eunos wrote:
| In a few decades, critical exams might be held in rooms that
| practically are Faraday cages.
| praptak wrote:
| Also a full body CT scan in case the device is self-
| contained.
| [deleted]
| thrdbndndn wrote:
| "High stake" exams in my country already have radio jamming
| devices for years.
| busyant wrote:
| About 5 years ago, I had 3 students who worked as a team to
| cheat.
|
| * The ringleader placed his iPhone under his leg.
|
| * He would lean back in his chair and hold the exam sheets up
| in the air. It looked a little unusual, but it (initially)
| seemed innocuous.
|
| * What he was really doing was pointing the sheets _downward_
| toward the camera peeking out from under his leg.
|
| * He was broadcasting the exam to God-knows-where.
|
| * He and the other two students then received answers via tiny
| earpieces.
|
| * In addition, the two other students would call me over to
| "ask clarification questions." In reality, they were trying to
| distract me while the ringleader broadcast the exam.
|
| * I eventually realized they were cheating (after exam 1), but
| I couldn't figure out how, until another student (exam 2)
| approached me with a note that read, "The guy to my right has
| his phone under his leg. Every time you circle the room, he
| pushes it completely under his leg so you can't see it."
|
| * At that point, however, each student was taking a slightly
| different exam (unbeknownst to them).
|
| The ringleader emailed me at the end of the semester and said
| something to the effect of: "I know I don't deserve to pass,
| but if you fail me, I will have to stay an extra semester."
|
| I ended up failing all three.
| pastaguy1 wrote:
| I proctored an exam once in an auditorium. You could kind of
| see over the person in front of you's shoulder even though
| they sat every other seat or whatever. I'm pretty sure there
| was a group of friends sitting in a six deep echelon
| formation as some kind of cheating daisy chain but I could
| never prove it.
| mehphp wrote:
| Failed? I'm surprised expulsion wasn't on the table.
| jcranmer wrote:
| A teacher failing their students involves _a lot_ less
| paperwork and formal proceedings than going through the
| expulsion process. Given how busy they tend to be, signing
| up for all of that extra work isn 't an inviting
| proposition.
| yarky wrote:
| Exactly, that's one of the main issues I encountered in
| "academia" : you're expected to play along and ignore
| cheating because the goal is to have more students for as
| long as possible, not less.
| busyant wrote:
| > I'm surprised expulsion wasn't on the table.
|
| Couple of points that I omitted.
|
| First, I was teaching at a local community college. The
| students were from a nearby university. They were trying to
| avoid the equivalent classes at their own school and I
| assume they felt that I might be an "easy mark." I'm not
| sure what my options were with respect to reporting them to
| their own university.
|
| Second, I was an adjunct at the community college. I
| informed the Dean of what was going on, but I got zero
| support. I could tell that the Dean felt that all I was
| doing was bringing him a problem that had the potential to
| mushroom into a political nightmare (no upside, only
| downside for him). The unspoken message that I got was,
| "Just deal with this on your own and don't turn it into a
| federal case." I don't know if the lack of support was due
| to me being an adjunct or whether it was due to "We need to
| keep our enrollment numbers up. Don't get a reputation for
| being a ball-buster."
| BeFlatXIII wrote:
| Tuition-paying and academic integrity are inherently at
| odds with one another. If every student has earned their
| place via scholarship, you can kick them out freely to
| reallocate the scholarship pool toward students who
| haven't gotten caught cheating. For students paying their
| own way, the thought they'd get expelled for cheating may
| dis-incentivize them from applying even if they have no
| concrete plans to cheat.
| Trollmann wrote:
| They weren't caught while cheating though. So maybe hard to
| justify if they decided to go against expulsion with their
| lawyers.
| mordae wrote:
| What fascinates me is that everyone always separate into just
| two camps:
|
| 1. Cool! Tell me more! I love these puzzle/strategy games.
| Both how to cheat and not get caught and how to catch the
| cheaters.
|
| 2. Wow, these cheaters are such a bad people. Isn't it unfair
| to those who don't cheat...?
|
| For once, I would love for someone to step back and ask:
|
| What the actual fuck is going on here?
|
| Some people are apparently spending up to 11 years (on top of
| high school) trying to get a certificate, that would help
| them maintain certain socioeconomic status. Other people are
| actively preventing them in getting the certificate in other
| ways than the official ones.
|
| This costs an incredible amount of money. The whole overhead
| is insane. Whole lot of people routinely spend several YEARS
| without actually receiving the certificate. College education
| is crippled, because it needs to prevent fraud first, teach
| people useful things second.
|
| Can't we do the sensible thing and lift the minimum income
| high enough so that only those who want to study will go to
| college and do so without fear of missing out?
| cryptonector wrote:
| > What the actual fuck is going on here?
|
| Medicine is a large topic. It requires many years of
| memorization, experience, etc., and then it requires
| continuing education and constant practice. This makes the
| costs of medicine very high.
|
| There is an opportunity for technology to help lower costs.
| The opportunity was identified decades ago, when the first
| work was done on expert systems for medicine.
|
| The problem is that this means that if we succeed at
| applying technology to lowering the cost of medicine, it
| will look a lot like patients self-diagnosing. In rich
| countries we really don't like that. In poor countries
| self-diagnostics is common.
| periheli0n wrote:
| I think money on the scale of a lifted minimum income is
| not the issue here.
|
| These people want to achieve status. Minimum income
| wouldn't help.
| busyant wrote:
| > Can't we do the sensible thing and lift the minimum
| income high enough so that only those who want to study
| will go to college and do so without fear of missing out?
|
| In my particular case, this was not an issue.
|
| I don't want to go into detail, but the students were from
| a foreign country (this is part of why it was going to be a
| political nightmare for the Dean).
|
| Two of the three could barely speak English (excepting the
| ringleader). I mention this ONLY because it was a big
| tipoff when reading their first exams: they all used
| idiomatic English phrases that were far beyond what they
| were capable of in casual conversation. They also used
| nearly identical phrasing when explaining their answers
| (another big tipoff).
|
| If anything, I blame their university for admitting
| students who were incapable of succeeding _without_
| cheating. The whole escapade left me feeling dirty. The
| university admits foreign students (because enrollment
| /$$$). And they _have_ to know many of the TOEFL scores are
| either unreliable or fraudulent.
| 3np wrote:
| > Wow, these cheaters are such a bad people. Isn't it
| unfair to those who don't cheat...?
|
| This is not the sentiment I'm getting here. More like "wow,
| I hope I don't get a cheater for a doctor, and if they go
| into research they are likely to fake results in studies.
| This is a unfair to society, their future employers and
| subjects"
|
| It's not about fairness in the socioeconomic ladder as much
| as the damage and cost incurred by having an incompetent
| fraud in a high-impact professional role.
|
| While I agree with your sentiment, these people aren't
| aiming for "livable wage" but for (from their perspective)
| "the top".
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| This is what we did in the Netherlands. Anyone could afford
| to study if they wanted to, and pay equalisation kept the
| gaps low. Social housing provided good and cheap places to
| live.
|
| Until neoliberalism hit though. Then everything was about
| the market and the ideals of low pay gaps were budget cut
| into oblivion. Now there's huge inequality and students
| have to take out huge loans like in the US :(
| grecy wrote:
| > _Can 't we do the sensible thing and lift the minimum
| income high enough so that only those who want to study
| will go to college and do so without fear of missing out? _
|
| Australia has a kind of free university for all. Australian
| citizens get an interest free loan of about $5k/year for
| tuition. You just pay it back by paying a little more tax
| on your income over $47k/year until it's gone. If you don't
| earn over $47k/year, you never pay it back, which is fine
| and expected. It's also easy to get welfare for housing and
| food as a student, so university is mostly "free". (For
| various values of free)
|
| Even with all of that, plenty of people still cheat on
| university exams. I was shocked to learn about it, but
| there are always people who take that route.
| rdtsc wrote:
| Exactly. Then imagine the ones who didn't get caught enter the
| workforce and are the ones performing surgery or other life
| critical procedures.
| fredoliveira wrote:
| > and are the ones performing surgery
|
| In fairness, this one person proved they can do implants :')
| mmaunder wrote:
| The community at DEF CON and other hacking cons have been
| playing with bio implants for some time, including low power
| RF. I came here to point out what you just said - that they got
| caught, which signals incompetence.
|
| I do think the bio-implanted device space is going to explode
| at some point. Here's where I see us headed:
|
| * VR next. If you don't have an Oculus Quest 2 or realize what
| a game changer it is in terms of price, power and wireless
| usability, you really need to get one, no matter what you think
| of Zuck and FB. It's the next thing. And it'll look clunky as
| hell 5 years from now. It's the suitcase-sized laptop of the
| early 90s.
|
| * Once very portable VR becomes a thing, augmented reality
| wearable glasses. As in real-time, amazing visuals that are
| seamlessly stitched into your reality, and so advantageous you
| won't want to live without them.
|
| * Then bio-implanted augmented reality with wireless charging
| through the skin.
|
| That's how I see the next 30 to 50 years unfolding in terms of
| devices. The first step is VR as the next big platform play.
| Incidentally I see three spaces there:
|
| 1. VR synthetic reality. [Already here and super fun and
| useful]
|
| 2. 360 film [Already here but cameras getting WAY better very
| fast]
|
| 3. Immersive vision-based augmented reality - visuals overlaid
| on regular vision. [Not quite here - but we do have PoC's and
| will be in the next couple years]
| _0ffh wrote:
| I suspect that after augmented reality wearable glasses we'll
| transition to AR contact lenses first, and maybe even stay
| there, before we go to full-on implants.
| mmaunder wrote:
| You're probably right. At the very least the market will
| always exist as some folks just refuse to get a bio
| implant.
| pas wrote:
| for true AR did anyone finally solve the problem of how to
| make black light or it's going to go through a camera +
| processing + display?
| mmaunder wrote:
| Try passthrough on Oculus Quest 2 to get an idea of how
| easy this is to solve. It just uses the motion sensor
| cameras and it's pixelated and black and white, but you get
| some overlays and you can get a very good idea of how
| quickly this will be solved in full 8k hidef with overlays
| that look like they belong.
| withinboredom wrote:
| I've always wondered this too. Once they figure how to make
| me feel like I'm sunbathing late night on the beach instead
| of by my pool, I'm sold.
| skykooler wrote:
| A simple solution would be to have liquid crystals on the
| glasses, like electronic auto-darkening sunglasses or
| welding helmets. Of course, this could only change the
| light level of the entire field of view at once (since it's
| way too close to your eye to focus), but that's still
| useful for many things.
| boredtofears wrote:
| > VR synthetic reality. [Already here and super fun and
| useful]
|
| Is it though?
| phkahler wrote:
| >> VR synthetic reality. [Already here and super fun and
| useful] >Is it though?
|
| Yes. The Quest 2 is incredible. No PC required, just a
| headset and 2 hand controllers. Games give you a completely
| immersed experience in a synthetic world where you can look
| around, explore, play, talk to other players in real time.
|
| It is here and I would call it super fun, but not useful
| (maybe that's what you were questioning). I think it may be
| a fad like the Nintendo Wii, or it might hang around to
| varying degrees. Maybe I lack imagination but I don't see
| people wearing AR glasses in public or to work even if they
| do become ultra-compact and awesome.
|
| Some people let their excitement lead them to believe "cool
| fun new thing" is somehow the magical future. I played
| Dactyl Nightmare (VR) back in the 1990's and have been
| waiting for awesome home-VR since then and quest is every
| bit of what I had imagined maybe it could be. But at the
| end of the day, rec-room paintball is just Dactly or Quake
| Arena. A 25yr old guy at work had to show me Mario Tennis
| on his Switch - it's just pong with special moves and fancy
| graphics. What's new is old, and I don't see any revolution
| with VR outside of niche applications like training and
| some visualization. Now get off my lawn while I go play
| some EchoVR.
| kelnos wrote:
| > _Games give you a completely immersed experience_
|
| I haven't tried the Quest 2 yet, so I don't know how good
| it is, but to me, it's not "completely immersed" until
| you can interface directly with my brain to feed it false
| visual, auditory, smell, touch, etc. signals, as well as
| interpret signals I make to move around, which causes me
| to interact with the virtual world instead of the real
| world.
|
| Anything else to me just feels kinda clunky. Certainly
| the stuff available now is way better than stuff from 20,
| 10, or even 5 years ago, but it's a far cry from complete
| immersion.
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| It sure is clunky yes. It's certainly not totally
| immersed.
|
| But it's so much more immersive than what we had before
| that it's still really amazing. If you had skipped
| computers in the 80s and 90s because they were nowhere
| like perfect yet, you still works have missed out on an
| amazing time. The same is happening now.
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| Yeah I too played Dactyl arena for like 1 minute at a
| fair. Then I waited what 30 years for it to come to my
| home. At least it finally did happen!
| prometheus76 wrote:
| Standing in your home office, sweating, with foggy vr
| glasses, trying not to fall down or run into walls while
| looking at low-poly NPCs coming at you, trying to use
| bizarre, disembodied "hands" to keep them away. What's not
| to love?
| [deleted]
| sandworm101 wrote:
| Futurama did it. Implanted vision devices have been a few
| years away, for decades. The nerve-wire interface isn't a
| simple problem.
|
| https://youtu.be/uASUHbFEhWY
| mmaunder wrote:
| Gibson did it in Neuromancer in 1984 and others before
| that. Even if the bio interface problem isn't solved,
| lightweight wearables that encompass all your vision and
| are super performant with a massive dev ecosystem and
| incredibly useful will be a reality in a couple decades.
| xorcist wrote:
| Implants may be coming sooner or later but the rest of
| society doesn't stand still, and as we extrapolate trends
| into the future, one thing seems very clear:
|
| You will _not_ own the implants in your body.
|
| They will be owned by a separate third party. You may still
| pay for them, and you may get some value out of the
| proposition, but they will not be under your control.
|
| That's perhaps the most important aspect of our future.
| hokumguru wrote:
| So long as we live in a free market economy I would hope
| consumers wouldn't be as stupid as to go that route. Sure,
| with music, movies, and even electronic peripherals many
| people go the rent vs buy route. I imagine however that
| many more would have issues with ownership and bodily
| autonomy if the items were actual physical implants.
| vosper wrote:
| > VR next. If you don't have an Oculus Quest 2 or realize
| what a game changer it is in terms of price, power and
| wireless usability, you really need to get one, no matter
| what you think of Zuck and FB. It's the next thing. And it'll
| look clunky as hell 5 years from now. It's the suitcase-sized
| laptop of the early 90s.
|
| I just got a Quest 2, and totally agree. It's incredible for
| what it can do for the price. And that it's untethered.
| Anyone who's into tech or interested in the future of tech
| should get themselves a Quest 2. The immersion level of games
| like Superhot VR was totally mind-blowing to me.
|
| I also think it's the future of home workouts. If Peloton's
| not working on a VR system then they'll be done in five
| years.
| mmaunder wrote:
| Yeah Thrill of the Fight is one HELL of a workout. I keep
| saying this and only those who have actually tried it get
| it.
|
| And yeah totally agree - I think one of the biggest changes
| here is the price. $300 is insane for what you're getting
| out of the box.
| bdamm wrote:
| There's a line I can't cross; I _like_ being physical. The
| Internet and its medusa of services already takes me away
| from meaningful choices, why should I deepen that
| connection that feels so overwhelmingly oppressive already?
| ASalazarMX wrote:
| Rest assured, nobody will force you.
|
| FWIW, I'm also wary of embracing full-time VR. I'd
| certainly like augmented reality, but immersive VR feels
| like too much yet.
| trulyme wrote:
| Is there something like Oculus but... Well, in control of the
| user? Or at least less FB-y?
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| It will come. FB is investing the big bucks but once they
| start seeing real success (and they are) others will see
| the value and start competing for real.
| gjs278 wrote:
| Zenbit_UX wrote:
| I suspect VR porn will be a huge driver of this technology.
| The porn industry both has the money and the desire to push
| the envelope into new offerings.
|
| I wouldn't be surprised if pornhub invests in VR in some way
| in the next 5-10 years.
| mmaunder wrote:
| Yeah, while most people will avoid this conversation - they
| were huge innovators in early eCommerce, and it's an
| obvious use case.
|
| But there are also other super exciting applications like
| dating e.g. a dating app facilitates the first date in VR
| and is able to provide safety controls making first-dates
| far more approachable and happen earlier on leading to more
| successful relationships.
| oblio wrote:
| Well, if you think about it, they were a huge driver for
| the web, so that would be just continuing the trend :-)
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| There's already a "pornhub" for VR called sexlikereal. You
| can watch videos and even connect toys that are
| synchronised with the video. The platform seems to be
| getting pretty big and even produces some of their own
| videos.
|
| PS explaining for a friend XD
| reaperducer wrote:
| There was a dystopian poem in the 1980's that ended with
| someone unable to go to sleep at night because there was a
| constant blinking red light when he closed his eyes from the
| AT&T answering machine implant in his eye.
| hammock wrote:
| Earpieces were alleged during the last presidential
| debates[1] (fact checkers said this was false), and other
| places[2]. How would one detect an implant?
|
| [1]https://www.naturalnews.com/2020-10-05-biden-wore-wire-
| with-...
|
| [2]https://twitter.com/3ree6ixty/status/1352444645125414913?r
| ef...
| Victerius wrote:
| Put the presidential candidates in a debate room that's
| actually inside a faraday cage. Use jammers to jam radio
| signals.
| LinuxBender wrote:
| My personal preference would be to put each candidate on
| multiple 3 to 4 hour long-form podcast interviews so we
| can get some idea of what they are like.
| bdamm wrote:
| Would that actually mean anything in a contemporary
| American election? Most of the electorate has an
| attention span of about 30 seconds.
| hammock wrote:
| That being the case, one has to imagine that 30 seconds
| taken from the final hour of a four-hour podcast (or,
| potentially, anywhere in the middle) have the potential
| to be quite different in insight than 30 seconds take
| from the first hour.
|
| The longest period we have seen a presidential candidate
| speak extemporaneously for is ~90 minutes (Biden town
| hall) which is an exceedingly rare occasion that came
| with pre-arranged questions and was mostly prepared
| talking points anyway.
|
| One of the aims of a longform podcast would be to extend
| the interviewee out beyond their prepared talking points
| to see what happens.
| Beltalowda wrote:
| One of the big problems is that certain sections of the
| press will just be hoping for you to fail, and will go
| over every word with a fine comb to look for something to
| moan and bitch about in the most bad-faith negative
| interpretation possible. Furthermore you need to be a
| renowned expert on any issue, cannot be seen to be
| thinking about something for more than a nanosecond,
| cannot hesitate in their answers, etc.
|
| We are asking for too much of our politicians, so they
| will find ways to cope out of necessity, by limiting the
| exposure. We all like to think that we'd do better, but
| after being shafted by twats who call themselves
| journalists a few times we'd all be doing the same.
| dmurray wrote:
| Or, accept that listening to and trusting a capable team
| of advisers is perhaps a better qualification for the
| role than thinking on your feet, and definitely better
| than being able to recall which of your rehearsed sound
| bites to use in response to which prompts.
| msla wrote:
| Were they alleged by anyone with a shred of credibility?
| Natural News is somewhere below the late, lamented Weekly
| World News in terms of being a news source you should take
| seriously.
| Beltalowda wrote:
| Natural News is an extremely accurate source. Just take
| anything written on the website, take the exact opposite
| position, and you will be correct more often than night.
| HWR_14 wrote:
| 1) No credible source alleged that.
|
| 2) Those allegations have surfaced around every debate
| since 2004 (or at least one debate every cycle)
|
| 3) Who cares if they were fed lines? Speechwriting isn't
| their job, nor is memorizing numbers.
| jamespo wrote:
| What a fantastic selection of sources
| basisword wrote:
| You really don't need high tech to cheat in exams. I was
| studying a few years ago (I was a mature student) and there
| were a few kids who took 3-4 toilet visits in a 2 hour exam to
| review notes on their phones after seeing the questions. The
| school can't search you before the exam (i.e they can't stop
| you carrying a phone) and they can't watch you in a toilet
| cubicle. All these kids did well in their degree despite being
| idiots in classes and lectures.
| Maursault wrote:
| > You really don't need high tech to cheat in exams.
|
| Although now ubiquitous, excluding two cups and a string,
| phones have always been high tech, as opposed to low tech,
| like feigning a need to use the restroom to develop their
| cheating space, as obvious and overused as it is. I wonder
| who first pioneered the fake bathroom visit for cheating, as
| opposed to it being employed as an escape from the extreme
| pressures of the classroom, i.e. smoking.
| AlexCoventry wrote:
| From the Fine Article:
|
| _Dr Anand Rai, the whistleblower in the Vyapam scam_ [of
| 2008-2013], _said: "It is very easy to get Bluetooth fitted in
| the ears. It is attached to the ear temporarily and can be
| removed. Such a technique was used by a Vyapam scam accused too
| to clear his medical exam eight years ago."_
| greggman3 wrote:
| Whether the story is true or not, I think there's an even
| bigger point. I believe augmentation is coming. There will be a
| time in the not too distant future when disabling communication
| for almost anything else will be near unthinkable. I can
| imagine kids growing up with instant access to info and
| communication via neural link to feel
| threatened/stressed/horrified to be disconnected, similar to
| tearing a child away from its parent.
|
| I'm not making a judgement whether that's good or bad. I'm sure
| plenty will chime in with their opinion. I'm only bringing up
| the world of always on computing is probably coming and schools
| will need to find some other way to test students that don't
| require handicapping them by removing what they perceive as
| part of their brain.
| throwawayboise wrote:
| Sounds like the borg collective. No thanks.
| [deleted]
| Cpoll wrote:
| If you get used to it at a young age, it probably won't be
| the traumatic thing you describe. E.g. have Faraday cage test
| booths in schools starting as early as Grade 1.
|
| Won't help much with recordings, of course, but that's more
| like a cheat sheet that's always on you; if you can succeed
| with it in a well-designed test environment, you can probably
| succeed with it in real life. At some point, if you're
| augmented, then memory is memory and there's no point in
| distinguishing between hardware and wetware.
| datavirtue wrote:
| I feel like I'm cheating when I just memorize shit. I blame the
| system if this many people are cheating.
| duxup wrote:
| The article says stories of cheating are common.
|
| I think the manner is what makes this story interesting.
| ethanbond wrote:
| Obviously cheating happens all the time. What GP is saying is
| that this _manner_ might not even be that extraordinary.
| kelnos wrote:
| This was my first thought, but I'm skeptical this ends up being
| as bad a problem as you imply. You don't just pass an exam and
| then immediately get sent to an operating theater and given a
| scalpel. You do a medical internship and residency, and are
| supervised by experienced doctors. (Yes, I know, this is the US
| system, but I'd hope the systems in other countries would be
| similar, or at least provide similar protections.) I would
| expect a cheater like this might not perform well enough to
| ever make it into an operating room. And even if they did, it
| would only be in an assistant role, where they would likely
| show their incompetence pretty quickly.
|
| Sure, the system overall isn't perfect, but detecting
| incompetence on the job ( _before_ being allowed to do any
| damage) is IMO the most likely scenario for cheating medical
| students who don 't get caught at school.
|
| Even if we consider other disciplines... say, civil
| engineering. You don't get your degree and then immediately get
| the job of Principal Engineer on a bridge-building project.
| You're supervised by engineers with more experience, and your
| work is checked and signed off on if it's correct. If your work
| consistently fails those checks, you'll get fired.
| moonchrome wrote:
| >I would expect a cheater like this might not perform well
| enough to ever make it into an operating room.
|
| Implying that material they are testing is relevant in a
| practical setting ? I actually wonder if they ever do
| something like random tests for people that are 5+ years into
| their career - just unannounced testing to check retention
| and relevance.
|
| If it's anything like CS I wouldn't be surprised if they
| would fail >90% people. People here complain about having to
| invert binary trees in an interview...
| tomxor wrote:
| An even bigger point is being missed... the underlying cause,
| the societal pressure to get a degree in india is so great that
| people will do almost anything.
| FpUser wrote:
| When I was in university we had that peculiar professor for
| Quantum Mech. He would let you choose any question sheet and use
| books to consult. And after you say you are ready he would
| briefly look at your answers and will fry your brain with the
| questions till you are dead. Usually all my university exams were
| 4s and 5s out of 5. I got 3 on quantum mech and considered myself
| extremely happy. Drank myself to death after that. Many of the
| people would be just told go home, study and return some other
| time. Phew.
|
| No gadget will save you from examiner like that one.
| changoplatanero wrote:
| i can't read the article cause it's paywalled. I wonder if he did
| the surgery himself or had an accomplice
| gs17 wrote:
| The article doesn't seem to say for sure, but it implies it was
| done by someone else.
| FatalLogic wrote:
| If he implanted it himself, that would imply impressive
| surgical skills
|
| edit: paywall bypass https://archive.ph/CCXpf
| jotm wrote:
| Does it? Seems like being able to cut and stitch yourself is
| the hardest part.
|
| Funny story, I dealt with a pylonidal cyst on my tailbone by
| myself. I did not expect that much blood tbh (along with very
| stinky puss... sorry for the detail), but I managed to drain
| and clean it.
|
| Apparently you need surgery for those... it really wasn't
| that hard, cutting in was the hardest part, but at that point
| the pain from it was worse.
| JasonFruit wrote:
| It's pus, not puss. What you wrote could give a false
| impression.
| Goz3rr wrote:
| There's an "I'll try later" button that removes the
| register/login prompt.
| steanne wrote:
| > After questioning by the college officials, one official
| reportedly said that he had a skin-coloured micro Bluetooth
| device fixed in his ear by an ENT surgeon, reported Hindustan
| Times.
|
| just don't take their javascript
| prasadjoglekar wrote:
| "After questioning by the college officials, one official
| reportedly said that he had a skin-coloured micro Bluetooth
| device fixed in his ear by an ENT surgeon, reported Hindustan
| Times."
|
| This happened in India. The student was caught with a mobile
| phone, which in turn led to further questioning.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| 14 wrote:
| When you hit a paywall you can try 12ft.io website just past a
| link in the box and it removes the paywall. It works for most
| paywalls.
| FastEatSlow wrote:
| The surgery was done by an ENT (ear, nose, throat) surgeon. I'm
| not sure if it was within the ear or not, as the device was
| "skin coloured", though that may be because of how thin the
| ear's skin is.
| scyzoryk_xyz wrote:
| My first thought wasn't how did he do it, but how did he got
| caught.
|
| Then it turned out that a squad came to interrogate and search
| which sounds ridiculous. And then it turned out that he admitted
| to it. And then _another_ student was caught with a non-implant
| device.
|
| Sounds ridiculous
| bredren wrote:
| Bringing this home--there is a Pycharm integration for Leetcode
| right now.
|
| But it is reasonable that any programmer familiar with the
| assistance of an IDE would want the syntax highlighting,
| formatting and more mapped into the browser during live coding
| exercises.
| toxik wrote:
| Feel like it should've been a false tooth instead. Perhaps of
| blue color.
| chaostheory wrote:
| They didn't find the headset initially. They found the phone in
| an inner seam of his pants. I'm guessing that they used either
| metal or other detectors
| geoffeg wrote:
| "Kent. Wake up Kent. I'm talking to you, Kent. This is Jesus,
| Kent, and you've been a very naughty boy."
| jotm wrote:
| Why not just waterproof it and keep it in your mouth, maybe
| temporarily affixed to a tooth...
| recursiveturtle wrote:
| There's a $1000 in there... or maybe there isn't. Know what I
| mean?
| dade_ wrote:
| Dead maybe: Harald Bluetooth
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harald_Bluetooth
| warrenm wrote:
| https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0089886/
| arcticbull wrote:
| With bone conduction audio via adjacent teeth, that would be
| achievable, less invasive and probably easier to avoid
| detection of.
|
| [edit] omg [1]
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SoundBite_Hearing_System
| samstave wrote:
| And a poison gas, when you bite down, blow it into the face
| of the Baron, and he will feel the revenge for killing my
| wife. A revenge so storng, even the Mind Conditioning for
| Loyalty cannot even contain my hate and revenge.
| bduerst wrote:
| If you're going to go the bone conduction route, then why not
| just bluetooth glasses?
|
| https://www.amazon.com/bone-conduction-
| glasses/s?k=bone+cond...
| exikyut wrote:
| From WP:
|
| > _SoundBite was developed and marketed by Sonitus Medical,
| Inc. The company filed for bankruptcy on Thursday, January
| 15, 2015,[1] as a result of the US Centers for Medicare &
| Medicaid Services' decision not to cover the device.[2]_
|
| :(
| starwind wrote:
| Thought you were talking about this at first:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3ca4tfXefk
| arcticbull wrote:
| now i'm just picturing the student trying to cheat using
| one of these lollipops, haha.
| Zenbit_UX wrote:
| Seems like the company went out of business because medicaid
| didn't cover it. I would be curious if such a device exists
| that could pair with a phone or laptop. A broken tooth could
| be capped with one of these false tooth implants and so long
| as there's a hygienic way to remove and clean + charge it I'd
| be very curious to try one.
| swores wrote:
| They weren't exactly as small and subtle as a false tooth:
| https://venturebeat.com/wp-
| content/uploads/2012/05/sonitus.p... and
| http://rolandocabral.com/wp-
| content/uploads/2011/07/soundbit...
| mc4ndr3 wrote:
| If the student had performed the surgery, that would have at
| least counted for something.
| jcadam wrote:
| One of the wackier pitches in an early season of Shark Tank was
| similar:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDkDg33uGuc
|
| My favorite part is when he describes the recharging procedure :D
| snambi wrote:
| It is published from UK. Probably a fake news story.
| vjust wrote:
| Maybe the dude needs to be working on a bio-tech / wearable-
| computing startup... if he's willing to go this far. But I guess
| its a moral stain. If its his 11th year, why not pass him for his
| sheer persistence.
| IncRnd wrote:
| The medical student who found a surgeon to implant bluetooth in
| his ear could have instead paid that surgeon for tutoring and
| kept his ear canal open.
| deutschew wrote:
| this will become really popular in Korea
| lmarcos wrote:
| I still remember the exams I had to pass when I was studying
| computer science. In some cases, professors let you take to the
| exam any material, books or notes you wanted; the point was: You
| are not going to pass the exam unless you understand the
| concepts, so there is no room for cheating.
| adhesive_wombat wrote:
| Yep, an open book exam is basically the perfect weapon against
| cheating. Plus for almost all subjects, including a lot of
| medicine actually, memorising stuff is not helpful in the
| field. If it's that important, you should double check anyway.
|
| The downside to open book exams is they can take a lot more
| effort to mark. And actually paying attention to filthy
| undergraduates is a bit _infra dig_ , dontcha know?
| ookdatnog wrote:
| When you have a direct line of communication with an
| outsider, open book or not doesn't matter, it's literally
| someone else taking the test for you.
| granshaw wrote:
| I remember those and they were such a breath of fresh air. Just
| like coding interviews where you're allowed to lookup docs,
| which is the case on the job
| cortesoft wrote:
| Yeah, I don't understand these sorts of memorization exams any
| more than I understand the "code this without using the
| internet" challenges for interviewing candidates... why is this
| an important skill to have?
| artful-hacker wrote:
| "The devices have been confiscated and their answer sheets were
| seized. They were given new answer sheets," he said.
|
| Unbelievable. They should have been banned forever.
| gowld wrote:
| It's pending investigation to document and confirm the facts.
|
| > An internal investigation has begun in the matter by the
| university examination committee and devices have been sent for
| examination.
|
| > After the conclusion of the investigation it would be
| determined whether the case merits a police case for using
| unfair means in an exam
| inimino wrote:
| They way they handled it was exactly the correct one. You allow
| the test to continue with the minimum of disruptions for
| everyone. The academic consequences come later, after a
| university investigation, and they may face criminal charges as
| well, but the people who didn't cheat deserve to have their
| test proceed with the minimum possible disruption.
| spywaregorilla wrote:
| Minimum possible disruption is almost certainly taking him
| out of the room?
| ineedasername wrote:
| Depends on how quietly he goes. Asking someone nicely who
| went to such lengths to cheat might turn bad fast, and then
| you're looking at the potential for physical altercations,
| calling security, etc.
|
| Or you just give them another sheet and worry about
| punishments later.
| kenniskrag wrote:
| the person is usually accused and maybe not guilty. Normaly
| you let them finish the exam and start the legal stuff
| afterwards (proof, counter arguments etc.)
| Zenbit_UX wrote:
| Indeed.
|
| It can also serve as additional proof if on the new
| answer sheet given after confiscating the devices, the
| exam taker performs significantly worse than on the
| original answer sheet.
| dharmab wrote:
| Ever seen someone removed from a room who didn't want to
| leave? It's not quiet.
| thawaya3113 wrote:
| I suspect the only people who can decide what would
| minimize disruption are the people who were actually there.
| inimino wrote:
| The frisking could have been done one-by-one in an adjacent
| room. But once you find the cheating, the best way is to
| let the test continue as normally as possible. Otherwise it
| creates a huge distraction for the other students as they
| wonder why that student had to leave.
| sodality2 wrote:
| Actually doing nothing and stopping them on the way out
| would be ideal, in my opinion. It gives them the chance to
| get cocky ("woohoo haven't get caught yet let me ramp this
| up a bit") and be more obvious about it, as well. (Unless
| it's the kind of cheating that disrupts others, of course,
| but hopefully it isn't?)
| Frost1x wrote:
| >they may face criminal charges as well
|
| Criminal charges for cheating on an exam? Seems a bit absurd
| to me. I'm all for preventing fraud (especially when were
| talking about peoples lives), but I also like to think I'm a
| reasonable human being and criminal action seems unfounded
| here. It sounds to me like expectations and filters for exams
| are too unrealistic now combined with lack of alternative
| realizable opportunities, otherwise you wouldn't see this
| level of cheating nonsense.
|
| Every day I see more and more ridiculous levels of
| competitive forces pushed on the bulk of society just to
| survive and it makes me wonder where the tipping point for
| social competitive forces for survival begin to exceed
| natural forces for survival and faith in societies
| destabilize to a point people just stop participating or at
| the very least many just "give up." You already see this in
| Japan, Korea, China (tang ping, "lying flat") and it seems to
| be an increasing trend in the US. I'm not intimately familiar
| with India but from what I have seen, it's not roses there
| either.
|
| We have some fundamentally skewed power and control mechansim
| increasingly governing people in 'democratic societies' to
| which citizens seem to have little real democratic say in
| anymore.
| pessimizer wrote:
| > Criminal charges for cheating on an exam? Seems a bit
| absurd to me.
|
| Depends on how you think about it. They're defrauding the
| institution out of a credential. It really depends on how
| the relevant laws are worded.
|
| Would you expect criminal charges if you got caught
| counterfeiting a lottery ticket?
|
| I find everything you said interesting, of course, but I
| think the legal thing is slightly more complicated.
| erosenbe0 wrote:
| Cheating on licensure tests at publicly subsidized
| institutions is hardcore fraud. Why should there be a carve
| out for white-collar crime like that?
| spoonjim wrote:
| Cheating in a medical exam can get an unqualified person
| licensed as a doctor. It can have serious consequences and
| kill lots of people. In a regular college exam I think
| criminal charges are a bit much but for a public safety
| related exam like doctor, pilot, etc. I think it's
| appropriate.
| erosenbe0 wrote:
| Adults are adults. 18 year-olds who defraud the military
| face punishment (with due process). Nearly all
| universities take public money and should stop treating
| 18 year-olds like children who need to be coddled on
| publicly subsidized dime.
|
| That being said, most such punishment records should
| generally be expunged once rehabilitation has been
| completed. We're all human and make mistakes, and only a
| pattern of misconduct should be permanently on record.
| VectorLock wrote:
| If you've ever posted any job listings in tech recently you might
| have seen first hand how pervasive "fake it til you make it" is.
| bencollier49 wrote:
| It pays off for those people because eventually they'll run
| into a non-technical hirer, who'll take 2 months to realise
| that they've made a mistake. Rinse and repeat.
| engineeringwoke wrote:
| There are institutions that are absolutely filled with these
| kinds of people. It's pretty much a feature, not a bug, at
| those places. They perceive themselves as "hustlers" and that
| everyone else is doing it more than them.
| VectorLock wrote:
| I really want to call some of these places referenced on
| their resume and see if they're outright lying or these
| places have just departments of people who don't do
| anything and people filling them just to get referral
| bonuses or kickbacks from the people they're placing there.
| oblio wrote:
| Amusingly, there is also a huge cognitive dissonance between
|
| 1. people generally being against cheaters (and people also
| generally acknowledge that there are statistically significant
| amounts of cheaters)
|
| 2. people also generally (and probably with a decent overlap
| with the 1st group) being against hazing-style complex and
| difficult interview processes
| rhines wrote:
| I'm not sure what the dissonance is? It's much easier to
| cheat in that sort of interview process than it is to cheat
| in a more free-form discussion interview. Of course you can
| simply lie in the latter, but assuming the interviewer is
| worth their salt they'll be able to ask questions that will
| be hard to answer if you don't have the experience you say
| you have. Whereas for algorithms and coding trivia questions
| you can search for answers online, have someone watching your
| screen and sending answers, do this bluetooth embedded
| approach, etc.
| oblio wrote:
| > but assuming the interviewer is worth their salt they'll
| be able to ask questions that will be hard to answer if you
| don't have the experience you say you have
|
| I'm not saying being a farmer and lying about being a
| software developer.
|
| But a mediocre software developer with good social skills
| can definitely bullshit through a top level software
| interview, barring the strictest of interviewers.
| owlbynight wrote:
| Or if you've ever worked in tech, or interacted with any sales
| teams. My wife is looking to make a career change and I told
| her work in low level tech because it literally doesn't matter
| what you know. Nobody will know what you don't know.
| abledon wrote:
| 'low level' tech ? like writing drivers and stuff in C?
| VectorLock wrote:
| Presumably he means "junior."
| ChuckMcM wrote:
| This is so sad. 11 years? You have have read, and re-read, every
| textbook for your classes like 4 times over in that period of
| time. It always astonishes me to see someone invest so much time
| in cheating, when it would take the same or less time to just do
| the damn work. What is worse, what happens when they have a
| patient and they don't know what to do because they cheated on
| that part of the exam? Let them die or become disabled? So very
| very sad.
| savant_penguin wrote:
| That was the professor intent all along to teach students how to
| implant devices.
|
| Just like when you are allowed a cheatsheet for the exam
| awa wrote:
| Non paywall story: https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/mp-
| student-gets-bl...
| donatj wrote:
| > A university squad of the Devi Ahilya Bai University came for a
| surprise check and they found one student with a mobile phone and
| another with some Bluetooth device
|
| It's been 15+ years since I've been in any sort of major exams.
| Are surprise checks like this common these days?
| [deleted]
| bsenftner wrote:
| I wager this guy is fielding calls from screenwriters about now.
| This would be a good comedy.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| I'm extremely skeptical of this story, at least as written.
|
| It makes great clickbait, but it doesn't really make sense.
| _Where_ would someone implant a bluetooth earpiece into their
| ear? There 's not really a lot of empty space in that area unless
| someone is very overweight and the device is implanted in layers
| of fat adjacent to the ear, which aren't great at conducting
| sound. Did someone really wrap an earpiece in some bio-compatible
| material, put it in someone right before the test (battery life
| is limited), and that person was then in a low enough level of
| pain and/or on enough painkillers that they could still complete
| the test? I'm extremely doubtful.
|
| But the bigger question is: What use is a 1-way communication
| device? Did the student have a second cheating instrument to
| photograph the test and send it to someone off-site? Or did they
| have someone with the test answers reading them off in real-time
| ("Question 34 - Answer is C")? It seems this would only be useful
| in an extremely narrow set of circumstances, if it could be
| pulled off at all.
|
| Really though, why wouldn't someone just grow out their hair or
| wear a wig and put an earpiece under their hair? The idea of
| surgically implanting something that could be easily concealed
| seems like a modern urban legend.
| dheera wrote:
| I guess my question is, if your body has built-in superpowers
| like Bluetooth or infrared vision or auxilary information
| storage, why would it be illegal to use them if it would make
| you a better doctor?
|
| Maybe the tests are not testing the right skills.
|
| As a patient I want to see the best doctor possible, and if
| they have retrofitted their bodies to be more competent at
| treating conditions I would totally want that.
| thih9 wrote:
| A bluetooth implant alone doesn't help that much. To be
| effective the scam requires more, e.g. continuous assistance
| from a third party. Will that doctor employ a third party
| afterwards, i.e. for all duration of their practice?
| munk-a wrote:
| For instance, as a counter example, if you wired your brain
| up to a hard drive loaded with an immense amount of medical
| data that you'd be able to access at will for the rest of
| your life (instead of learning most of that rote knowledge
| through traditional sources) I wouldn't consider that
| cheating. Assuming you're still sufficiently good at
| critical thinking and problem solving then I wouldn't
| really have any objection to a doctor who keeps his
| knowledge of the krebs cycle on an instantly accessible
| external storage device.
| DonHopkins wrote:
| Who doesn't want their own Personal Doctor Feelgood, who
| prescribes as much Adderall as you can Snort, lets you
| Dictate Glowing Health Letters, refers you to a Bone Spur
| Specialist who gets you out of Being Drafted, shoots you up
| with Penicillin whenever it Hurts When You Pee, then awards
| you a Purple Heart for getting wounded by Vagina Landmines in
| your Own Personal Viet Nam?
|
| https://edition.cnn.com/2018/05/01/politics/harold-
| bornstein...
|
| https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/26/us/politics/trump-
| vietnam...
|
| https://people.com/politics/trump-boasted-of-avoiding-
| stds-w...
| kemitche wrote:
| Your assumption is that these cheating students will continue
| to have an enabler with them through their entire career.
|
| Furthermore, your assumption is that a cheater will be the
| best doctor. It's not about the method - it's about the
| integrity. My assumption is that any person taking shortcuts
| like this to get their degree will also take shortcuts with
| my personal health, which is not a comforting thought.
|
| The scenario in the article is very different than a
| potential doctor being upfront about having implants
| installed to aid them in their duties.
| throwaway0a5e wrote:
| >it's about the integrity. My assumption is that any person
| taking shortcuts like this to get their degree will also
| take shortcuts with my personal health, which is not a
| comforting thought.
|
| You're making generalizations based on proxy information,
| which is basically the same thing that a test does you're
| just using a different set of information to key off of.
|
| Not that there isn't some signal in the pile of noise that
| you're picking through but a willingness to circumvent
| academic requirements isn't exactly a strong indicator of
| performance in the field. Competent professionals fudge
| requirements they consider to be irrelevant all the time
| (inb4 no true Scotsman).
| blowski wrote:
| If someone's caught cheating in an exam, I'd say the
| burden of proof is on them not me. Especially if they're
| intending to affect my health.
| shukantpal wrote:
| These are reasonable generalizations.
| powersnail wrote:
| Because Bluetooth is not superpower; the cheating part is the
| other end of the communication feeding information to the
| student. They won't be there when the doctor is treating you.
|
| Real doctors can already use external information anyway.
| They just use the computer, no need to Bluetooth themselves.
| kevinstubbs wrote:
| Well if you read the article... "It is very
| easy to get Bluetooth fitted in the ears. It is attached to the
| ear temporarily and can be removed. Such a technique was used
| by a Vyapam scam accused too to clear his medical exam eight
| years ago."
|
| And the article also mentions that the Indian Supreme Court
| themselves cancelled the licenses for 634 doctors licenses
| issued between 2008 - 2013.. some of which used this same
| technique.
|
| How it works, where does it go; I have no idea. But clearly
| it's not a one-off case.
|
| P.S. I think that it's perhaps surgically clipped deep in the
| inner ear somehow, and not inserted beneath the skin.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| > Well if you read the article...
|
| I did, but how does this:
|
| > "It is very easy to get Bluetooth fitted in the ears. It is
| attached to the ear temporarily and can be removed.
|
| ...answer the question at all? I'm asking about the "attached
| to the ear" part and the surgical implant the article talks
| about without a single detail.
|
| Surely if it's both easy and common then someone should be
| able to find a picture of the device or the process.
| nathanyukai wrote:
| 1-way communication device are used in cheating all the time,
| it involves of someone that's really good at exams taking the
| same test, sneak out to the toilet and tell them the answers.
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| Bluetooth range on headsets is pretty mediocre though.
| Especially when blocked by body parts. I've never done an
| exam where the toilets were within Bluetooth range.
| pricci wrote:
| Another student had a phone with him/her. It might be
| tethered to the bluetooth device.
| tempnow987 wrote:
| My licensing exam was computer adaptive. We were wanded,
| turned pockets inside out, videoed. You couldn't eat, take
| jackets on our off or anything. Lots of rules around how you
| sat at the table. These must be a fair bit lower tech for the
| cheating to work. You could wear earplugs and earmuf style
| sound suppression which I did. Wouldn't be super difficult to
| have audio in -> but I don't think it would have done much
| good.
| cortesoft wrote:
| But aren't these sorts of tests usually randomized so that
| people next to each other aren't taking the same exact test?
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| I've never seen that. Randomised per sitting yes. Within
| the same sitting no. Usually for important exams the desks
| are far enough apart.
| [deleted]
| Izkata wrote:
| It was done regularly in my highschool in the 2000s,
| there'd be two or three versions of the test and they'd
| be distributed randomly. We'd know which one we got
| because of a label in the corner, which was also how they
| used the right key for grading.
|
| It'd surprise me if such a simple mitigation wasn't done
| for more important exams...
| oaktrout wrote:
| Medical licensing exams in the US are randomized within
| the same sitting, even having two examiners in the same
| room receiving entirely different questions (not just
| random question ordering).
| Scoundreller wrote:
| > What use is a 1-way communication device?
|
| Lots of dumb questions on exams that are predictable rote dumps
| that take away from studying other material.
|
| E.g. a blank page that asks "Draw and label the Kreb's cycle.
| Do not use abbreviations"
| Izkata wrote:
| > Draw
|
| Over audio, interesting challenge.
| asdff wrote:
| Easy for the krebs cycle. Playback the reactions in order
| and just write them out in a circle then draw a big arrow
| if you want
| closetohome wrote:
| Another article I found clarified that this was an induction
| style micro earpiece (which google helpfully suggested
| suffixing with "for cheating") that had apparently been
| inserted by an ENT due to its size and depth in the ear canal.
| No actual surgery involved.
|
| Since this is an incredibly common and mundane method of
| cheating I'd have to say you're right, the headline is entirely
| clickbait.
| pkrotich wrote:
| I'm skeptical as well... someone saw SpongeBob driving test
| cheating episode [0] and decided to write an article.
|
| [0] - https://youtu.be/Zr7EodmMbmo
| lhorie wrote:
| "Surgical" doesn't necessarily mean invasive. It's most likely
| a procedure similar to rhinestone implants[0].
|
| As for why they use a 1-way device: this method of cheating has
| been around for decades; you get someone to take the test, they
| leave early and radio answers in. I don't know the specifics
| for this particular exam, but India is certainly not the only
| place in the world w/ extremely competitive admission exams.
| Back in my days back home some twenty years ago, cram schools
| would be on stand-by outside school doors, they'd smuggle
| question sheet out somehow and flash-solve them / publish
| answers on the spot for publicity. You could get a full answer
| sheet online from a cram school website before the exam was
| over (these exams are hours long) and test takers would
| frequently do so after finishing their exams to see how they
| did.
|
| [0] https://www.bodycandy.com/blogs/news/microdermal-implants-
| bo...
| tomc1985 wrote:
| Maybe the earpiece transmits sound conductively? When I go to
| the ENT's office, the audiologist does some tests on me with
| conductive headphones and usually the point of contact is my
| skull an inch or two from my ear
| lordnacho wrote:
| It reads like a cultural tall tale to me.
|
| First, the subject of Indians cheating on exams is something
| that surfaces in Western news now and again. It's always said
| that there's these crazy tough exams that determine your life
| in India. For instance this guy apparently spent 11 years
| trying to pass. Totally unlikely, who would do that? The point
| seems to be to underline the importance of exams in India.
|
| Second, the method of cheating is some badly explained but
| intricate mechanism. Badly explained in that the story is not
| complete, how exactly is the Bluetooth used? Intricate in that
| it's some weirdly complicated thing like getting an operation
| to have this implanted. It's always something that sounds way
| too complex to be worthwhile.
|
| Third, the authority in charge of catching the cheaters seems
| oddly well appointed. Would you really send a special squad to
| check these kinds of things? Sure, check for hidden notes and
| phones. You really gonna check for Bluetooth? I mean maybe but
| I doubt it. How could the guy have a crazy special plan for
| implanting the thing in his ear but not have anything other
| than an ordinary plan for smuggling in the phone?
|
| To me it reads like that story of a religious couple that don't
| know how babies are made. Comes about now and again, makes us
| chuckle, says something recognisable about society, but
| ultimately sounds not quite true.
| quenix wrote:
| > To me it reads like that story of a religious couple that
| don't know how babies are made.
|
| Which story are you referring to?
| tialaramex wrote:
| It's a recurring urban legend. Here's an example:
| https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/inconceivable-story/
| Johnny555 wrote:
| Here's one of them:
| https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-couple-doesnt-
| kn...
| brailsafe wrote:
| I'd have to agree. I know enough people with super gauged ears,
| that the most efficient way to accomplish this would be in
| plain sight
| 0des wrote:
| If they did it themself just get them the green scrubs and the
| rest will fall into place.
|
| Stackoverflow is about to get much more interesting.
| codezero wrote:
| You can bite on a bone conducting Bluetooth headphone and hear
| reliably. This was just a dumb move.
| skye-adaire wrote:
| https://youtu.be/ntMYssVeyl0
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| We are in an arms race now. Turnitin. Proctoring. Next? Airport
| style security scanners at the exam hall. I wrote about this arms
| race recently [1] and where it will lead.
|
| The problem is really that, under conditions of self-
| commodification (reification), intrinsic motivation to learn and
| be a better person is replaced by extrinsic motivation to appear
| to be a better person. The experience (simulation) means more
| than the reality - which is a general trend in Western society
| now proved by the very existence of the company Meta.
|
| https://www.timeshighereducation.com/features/we-cant-teach-...
| robocat wrote:
| I can understand one motivation to cheat: exam grading is very
| unfair at the individual level because your performance has a
| high variation depending on factors outside of your control.
| Those factors are random from the perspective of a test taker:
| the exact questions, whether you had a flu, family
| circumstances, and hundreds of other factors that are
| independent of your ability. Apart from the fact that exams
| strongly measure the skill of passing exams, yet often poorly
| measure actual ability for the subject.
|
| The unfairness depends on how steep the cutoff is: does 89.9%
| mean you miss out on an important life goal, whereas 90.1%
| means you win?
|
| I did a quick google to find facts on expected individual exam
| mark volatility, but couldn't find anything - what keywords do
| I need?
|
| One pattern to the results I did read is that individual
| volatility is not even acknowledged - the unwritten assumption
| is that exams are completely fair and volatility has other
| dominant causes.
|
| Edit: I am an engineer type with some spectrum attributes and I
| loath cheats, but over time I have seen how important some
| "dark" skills are such as: deception, judging when to ignore
| rules, and meta-games. In some roles or countries, perhaps
| cheating is a good quality? There is a reason the best card
| games are about deception. Cheaters are also risk takers, and
| taking appropriate risks is associated with entrepreneurship.
| Risks with extreme downsides are interesting.
| CrazyStat wrote:
| Based on my experience teaching I don't think individual
| variability is that large. In a semester-long course with 3
| or 4 exams the top students and bottom students are mostly
| consistent from exam to exam.
|
| That said, of course individual variability does exist. In
| one graduate-level math class I misremembered one theorem
| which caused me to immediately lose 40/100 points--there were
| only 5 questions on the exam, and that theorem was central to
| two of them. Had those two questions been different I
| probably would have scored much better. I consider that a
| poorly-written exam, though, since so much of the score was
| dependent on recalling one theorem correctly. I somehow still
| ended up with an A in that course, I can only assume through
| either creative accounting or a generous grading curve.
|
| In any case, I don't know any other method of evaluation
| which is _more_ fair than exams. Every method of evaluation
| is subject to similar sources of individual variability and
| some have other issues in addition. "Fair" in such cases is
| a mirage. It's not like there's some other objective
| evaluation that we can use instead of exams, just ones with
| different biases.
| jimbob45 wrote:
| It seems to me that TurnItIn and proctoring take care of 99% of
| problems in exams _if_ the exams are well-constructed such that
| consulting hidden notes wouldn 't help much.
|
| The 1% of exams that remain problematic are the memorization-
| style exams that maybe shouldn't still exist in the modern age.
| imoverclocked wrote:
| Sometimes memorization itself is important to a role. How
| would you test for that, if not an exam that tests memorized
| facts?
|
| From recent personal experience: pilots need to _know_
| certain information so that it can be employed on a whim to
| help solve time-critical problems. The written exam (which
| precedes a practical exam) definitely requires memorization.
| jvanderbot wrote:
| Right. there are plenty of exams _in tech_ that require plain
| old practice and on-the-spot ingenuity. However, for
| _medical_ and other fields, memorization and recall is key,
| so it 's rife for this kind of cheating.
|
| But honestly, if someone were to tattoo the same information
| onto their arm, there's an argument to be made it was
| permanently accessible just as much as memory.
| asdff wrote:
| I mean it is kind of stupid even for medical. You are never
| in the middle of the desert having the memorize the
| mechanical properties of the inner ear. Every doctor there
| is has reference books in reality. Why not let people just
| bring those books to their exams if that's how the job
| actually works in reality? Learning how to consult a
| reference for information is just another mental offshoring
| tool like a calculator, so its a little silly when exams
| force you to work without it.
| BitwiseFool wrote:
| To an extent, yes. As a programmer who can't remember the
| syntax for declaring a two dimensional array and populating
| it with hard-coded strings, I feel somewhat hypocritical when
| I say that Medicine seems to be valid domain for rote
| memorization.
| nkrisc wrote:
| When was the last time someone's life depended on you
| recalling the syntax for a two dimensional array within the
| next few seconds?
|
| I think it's OK to hold medical professionals to a higher
| standard.
| asdff wrote:
| How often do doctors even need to do this? Everything
| they do probably has a standard operating procedure
| printed out in a binder that can be dictated by a nurse.
| The training should be in learning how to take those
| instructions and turn it into action, not that as well as
| having to memorize all the instructions that are going to
| be referenceable anyhow.
|
| Maybe if the training were more like the former than the
| latter, fewer med students and residents would be pulling
| all nighters on some amphetamine. Personally, going into
| an ER I'd rather be met with well slept, focused hands
| that consult the relevant information, rather than a
| sleep deprived zombie barking out protocol they
| hypnotized themselves into remembering.
| Fogest wrote:
| Some courses seem to put far too much emphasis on the
| memorization aspect of the courses, which has always seemed
| silly to me. For so many jobs you are not required to memorize
| a ton of information and instead can refer to manuals,
| textbooks, the internet, etc... for those kinds of things.
| These are also typically the things people forget shortly after
| the exam, which begs the question of how useful it even is in
| the first place. For example, I tried out an "Intro to
| sociology" class. It was a horrible class, and over half the
| exams questions were things like "Which person came up with xyz
| theory". Or "What year was xyz theory proposed". So many
| questions were purely memorization and did little to actually
| test your understanding of those theories.
|
| What I remember out of most courses is not the things I had to
| memorize, but instead it is the practical components. Those
| should be the takeaways and things that get tested. Many people
| also just sucked at memorizing things like that, and I can
| totally see why cheating is such a problem on these kinds of
| tests.
|
| Some of the bests tests I've taken where I've remembered the
| most material have been open book tests that allowed me to use
| all my textbooks and notes that I had taken. They were hard
| tests which really tested the understanding of the course
| material.
| eitally wrote:
| I think there needs to be acknowledgement that there are two
| different learning tracks in higher education - one that is
| facts & figures, and one that is experiential. For better or
| worse, most institutions treat success in facts & figures as
| a high quality proxy indicating future success in the
| experiential areas, which includes everything from how an
| individual knows how to learn & how to teach themselves, to
| how they effectively build relationships and collaborate with
| others. Speaking as someone both liberal arts & technical
| degrees, and technical & business leadership experience over
| 20 years in manufacturing & big tech, my assessment is that
| this is ridiculous. Of course there will always be a need for
| "human computers" -- people who specialize in functions
| requiring programmatic, fact-based work -- but _most_ jobs
| are not like this, and most individuals who prefer this type
| of work would generally benefit from expanding their comfort
| and capacity in human-centric skills.
|
| To this end, I agree vigorously that the current state of
| higher education is both unsustainable and insane, but I
| think the end game will be more private enterprise & public
| sector employers deciding to expand intern & apprenticeship
| programs as an alternative to being constrained in hiring to
| the pipeline of candidates emerging from top universities.
| We'll see.
| zozbot234 wrote:
| Memorization of "raw" facts has become quite easy with
| spaced-repetition tools like Anki. The best performance on
| the job always comes from putting together raw memory and
| deep conceptual understanding. Neither of these is useful
| without the other.
| andrewzah wrote:
| Intro classes (i.e. 101 or just 100-level classes) are
| designed to weed out people or fill cross-class requirements
| for majors. My degree required some "aesthetic" classes so I
| took Dance 101; the class was comprised of a diversity of
| majors + athletes looking for an easy course. It's also a
| -lot- of work to grade 150-200 students' tests, and they
| might change their major anyways.
|
| Nearly every course I took at a 300/400+ level was about
| demonstrating a fundamental understanding instead of strict
| memorization. Open-book tests were more common. And it went
| down from 150+ students to 20 or 4. Considering my degree is
| a b.a. in media arts, some senior courses had minimal or no
| testing at all and instead had large projects.
|
| That said, perhaps one of the hardest classes I took was a
| 300 or 400 level one on Tarantino films, probably to weed out
| people who were just looking for an easy class. On top of
| demonstrating understanding through analysis via
| storyboarding or papers, the quizzes/tests had multiple
| choice of 5 answers, which always included "all of the above"
| or "none of the above", and short/long answers/prompts. You
| really had to have studied each lecture and actually have
| watched the relevant films. You wouldn't believe how many
| people didn't watch the films... in a film analysis class.
| But all of that aside, it was thoroughly interesting and
| memorable.
| simion314 wrote:
| Students cheated with phones and hidden small speakers at
| exams that are not about reproducing stuff from memory, the
| student would tell the friend on the other side the question
| and somehow the friend would find or know the correct answer.
| criddell wrote:
| It's also worth thinking about why we use tests and what they
| actually measure.
|
| Malcolm Gladwell (yes, I know) did a podcast[1] on the LSAT
| that's pretty good. In that podcast, he makes a pretty
| compelling argument that what the test measures isn't very
| useful.
|
| [1]: https://www.pushkin.fm/episode/the-tortoise-and-the-hare/
| jcranberry wrote:
| The LSAT is probably one of the few tests where what it
| measures is directly useful to a prospective lawyer. I find
| it hard to believe that he can show that reading
| comprehension, logical ability and analytical ability aren't
| useful to law school admissions.
| firebird wrote:
| How did I know this man was Indian or was in India? Lol.
| firebird wrote:
| fyi I am too.
| geodel wrote:
| It's simple. Medical students from India like bluetooth
| implants.
| srvmshr wrote:
| In my undergrad days, my sibling's medical college (KMC
| Mangalore) had an interesting case where the student had hired
| the service of a rice-engraving artist to etch complete medical
| manuals onto the sides of metallic ballpoint pens. He was wearing
| a high powered lens as bifocals.
|
| He was caught because he was noticed shuffling a wad of pens too
| often & then the bifocal glasses were peculiar, prompting some
| investigation.
|
| He had paid the grain-engraving artist to the tune of
| $30,000-35,000 for the whole set (2006). It is a lot of money!
| lnxg33k1 wrote:
| Wow, when I was young my father sold bijoux and he also used to
| create necklaces and bracelet on the fly with names of people
| written on grain of rice, he used to sell those for like 5.000
| liras (in Italy, in the 90s, before euros, it would be 2.50
| euros right now), if I knew I would have told him to start
| offering his services to cheating students, instead of tourists
| in Positano :D
| InCityDreams wrote:
| You missed the bit where L5.000 became EUR5.
| lnxg33k1 wrote:
| Oh yeah I didn't miss it, but I guess "technically" it is
| 2.50 euros, but yeah practically I would even argue it's
| 10euros :D
|
| edit: but still far from 35000 dollars :D
| exikyut wrote:
| The massive irony is that the rice-engraving artist may well
| have then stood the chance to get a decent head start in
| medicine. I've long theorized that copying/transcribing
| information can be a great way to meditate in a way conducive
| to retaining and learning new data.
|
| Depends on their skill level, and how much focus there was on
| the process of engraving vs temporarily memorizing the next
| block of info to transcribe.
| agumonkey wrote:
| I never went to med school, but in HS I had my beloved modded
| HP48 that could store loads of text. I didn't manage to wire
| it to my computer so I resorted to type everything manually.
|
| After a whole day of char-by-char input.. I knew everything
| by heart and didn't need to look it up in the calculator.
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| It also had infrared so you could even use chat apps. It
| was attenuated for short range precisely for this reason
| but obviously that protection was useless in the hands of
| electronics students.
|
| I still have my 48GX. Though I never used it at an exam. As
| computer science student I simply never had any exams that
| required a calculator. I just had it for personal
| interests.
| Joeri wrote:
| I only ever used that infrared to control the classroom
| vcr, to the absolute befuddlement of the teacher. Only
| time I've seen someone tap the side of a vcr to fix
| whatever is broken with it.
|
| I used the serial cable to hook it up to my computer and
| loaded it with minigames, to play during class.
|
| You can tell I was not the best of students.
| no1lives4ever wrote:
| Reminds me of my attempts to make cheat sheets that I would
| use during exams. I would write out a small cheat sheet the
| night before I never needed to use those cheat sheets as I
| would always remember whatever I had written on them. After
| a few cases when I remembered the whole contents of those
| sheets, I would just use them as last minute revision aid
| and discard them before getting into the examination hall.
| agumonkey wrote:
| Good old the last minute L1 cache warm up.
| yonaguska wrote:
| I had some professors in high school that would encourage
| us to write a cheat sheet, with the caveat that you had
| to fit everything into a standard note card.
|
| Unfortunately, there was a foreign student that was so
| ahead of everyone, that he simply increased the
| difficulty of the tests and would curve them, excluding
| that one student from the curve. It was normal for most
| of the class to get 60s-70s, while this student would get
| 90s on his exams. I say unfortunately, but only jokingly.
| munk-a wrote:
| One of my high school teachers used an accumulating curve
| just for this reason - a number of pre-written tests were
| rotated out pretty randomly and your grade was scaled in
| relation to everyone who had ever taken the test. It did
| fail to account for anomalies like the teacher discussing
| a subject particularly poorly one year but it was pretty
| fair feeling.
| chx wrote:
| At university one of the exams allowed a single sheet of
| handwritten paper to be brought in. People got real damn
| creative in squeezing as much information they could on it,
| completely oblivious to the fact they actually learned the
| subject matter while preparing their "cheat sheet".
| CodesInChaos wrote:
| That does not match my experience. The primary benefit of
| these papers is that you can look up the difficult to
| remember stuff during the exam (mostly formulas and precise
| definitions in my case).
| glfharris wrote:
| How is that any different from the rote memorisation that's
| been the mainstay of most education systems up to the 21st
| century?
|
| It doesn't really aid understanding, doesn't incorporate
| active recall, and tends to become inefficient for a large
| corpus of knowledge.
| ASalazarMX wrote:
| "Doc, I have this small lump in my back that doesn't hurt,
| but hurts if I poke it."
|
| "Oh, I remember I saw something like that in school, let me
| Google it!"
|
| Medicine, like law, involves a lot of memorization.
| GekkePrutser wrote:
| Bad example though. I'm sure MDs actually look a lot of
| stuff up because they can't remember every fringe thing
| during their entire career :)
|
| Also it's an ever changing field of course.
| jamesakirk wrote:
| Counterexample: It is impossible to understand a new
| language without memorization. Memorization is critical,
| but it is not sufficient.
| mlyle wrote:
| Rote isn't a huge part in the school I'm a part of.
|
| We deliberately have some, though. There's some stuff
| that's just helpful to memorize to be able to do more
| active work and understanding with (multiplication tables,
| basic chemical formulas, sets of trig identities). There's
| also some stuff inserted (poem memorization, latin & greek
| roots for one grade, all 50 states for another, etc) just
| to strengthen the skill of learning by rote for when it's
| useful later.
| datavirtue wrote:
| I have to learn maths by engraving the algorithms in source
| code.
| cortesoft wrote:
| The bigger question is why are we testing for things that can
| be looked up that quickly on a tiny grain of rice that probably
| doesn't have a good indexing system?
|
| Like, if there was a question that was easy to answer if you
| could look at a reference sheet, then why is it important to
| memorize it? If the test take could understand the question
| enough to know where to look it up, isn't that good enough?
| hokumguru wrote:
| Because in the medical field peoples' lives are literally at
| stake. Doctors absolutely do research for their patients in
| the real world but a base level of knowledge is still
| absolutely required. If someone is not able to answer the
| "easy" questions then how do we know that they won't falter
| when faced with an actual challenging one.
|
| Would you hire an engineer who couldn't write a FizzBuzz
| without looking it up?
| Rygian wrote:
| How comfortable would you be if your ER doctor went to look
| something up while you were in need of urgent care?
| throwaway48375 wrote:
| They look stuff up all the time. There are dedicated apps
| for it e.g. epocraties.
| adhesive_wombat wrote:
| Brb learning rice engraving. Or maybe I'll just buy a laser
| engraver.
| caycep wrote:
| I think he may be a lousy doctor, but perhaps IT/engineering is
| his true calling....
| karaterobot wrote:
| The article did not explain how the device was used for cheating.
| I'm ready to assume that was his intent, but in what matter would
| it have been employed? Was he receiving answers from a third
| party? That seems easy to spot: just look for the guy who is
| reading the questions out loud.
|
| Probably they should just have people go through a metal detector
| before the test, to identify all these hidden devices.
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| >Probably they should just have people go through a metal
| detector before the test, to identify all these hidden devices.
|
| How would a metal detector stop it? If you say the metal
| detector is picking up a piece of shrapnel from an accident
| while young, how can they really disprove that?
| hutzlibu wrote:
| "If you say the metal detector is picking up a piece of
| shrapnel from an accident while young, how can they really
| disprove that?"
|
| X-Rays? MRI? Or requesting medical documents about it? (can
| all be done afterwards)
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| Sure it's possible, but that's asking a lot just to take a
| test.
| karaterobot wrote:
| The same way metal detectors work in other places, like
| airports: if you set off the detector for a valid medical
| reason, you should be prepared to show the card your doctor
| gave you attesting to this fact.
| krisoft wrote:
| Because people who get a doctor to implant something in
| their ear will have so much trouble getting such a card?
| karaterobot wrote:
| Implanted bluetooth devices is an edge case; so much so
| that it made the news. The normal case is people hiding
| devices in their clothes.
|
| Anyway, I'm not sure whether it's considered unethical to
| help a patient electively implant a bluetooth receiver in
| their bodies, but falsely signing a medical release card
| probably is.
| nnm wrote:
| A way to avoid this is to make it possible to fail. I mean, when
| one fails medical exam, not too much pressure / shame on the
| student -- they can simply do other type of work.
| Firmwarrior wrote:
| Man, that's an interesting point
|
| If you fail the Google entrance exam, you can retake it and/or
| work at any of a dozen of other great careers
| Slow_Hand wrote:
| If we are to assume that bluetooth implants and other embedded
| tech that can prompt a user near-instantly with information are
| an eventuality, I think there is an interesting question to
| consider:
|
| If everyday people have near-instant access to information, how
| will we continue to assess expertise moving forward? Surely it's
| not enough to just have access to rote information, like in the
| case of the cheating test-taker. We will also expect our experts
| to have the deep understanding that comes from experience in a
| domain.
|
| Will we need different language to describe flavors of knowledge
| and expertise? If so, will the nature of test-taking and
| assessment need to evolve to identify people who actually have an
| understanding of the thing being tested, instead of testing for
| rote answers?
| rocqua wrote:
| Rote regurgitation is only useful for teaching the basics, not
| advanced stuff. I propose testing this, asking students not to
| cheat, and catching cheaters later, in case they screwed
| themselves by skipping the basics.
|
| Why do math students need to know the sine doubling rule? Not
| so they can calculate with it (they could look that up) but so
| they can reduce certain expressions to sin(2x). That's why
| calculus teaches this stuff.
| softwarebeware wrote:
| In my experience you can easily tell the difference between
| someone who knows what they're talking about and someone who
| just googles what they're talking about. I have a feeling that
| won't change even when people have implants.
| throwaway0a5e wrote:
| >If everyday people have near-instant access to information,
| how will we continue to assess expertise moving forward? Surely
| it's not enough to just have access to rote information, like
| in the case of the cheating test-taker. We will also expect our
| experts to have the deep understanding that comes from
| experience in a domain.
|
| We've always expected professionals to have an understanding.
| We've just been using memorization as a proxy for this.
|
| Any 14yo with a cell phone can go on Reddit give you caned
| advise about investments or why your car is making a funny
| noise. But we don't trust teenagers googling stuff with those
| sorts of things in the real world because there's a huge
| difference between being able to pattern match information and
| actually understanding what's going on hence why we don't get
| advice we care about from anonymous people with backgrounds
| that can't be vetted
|
| Professional education has a filter in front of it so it's
| going to be behind the curve when it comes to reckoning with
| the realities of information access in the modern age but it'll
| have to figure something better than tests out eventually.
| wiz21c wrote:
| Access to knowledge is one thing, having understanding is
| another. I guess we'll just move to problem solving exams
| rather than knowledge exams...
| WhyNotHugo wrote:
| The way exams work is already terribly outdated for many areas
| of expertise. Which is why companies no longer take a single
| written exam when interviewing professionals, but face-to-face
| interviews discussing topics. Academia has yet to catch up in
| many domains.
| closetohome wrote:
| Every college class I had that taught something worth knowing
| ended with a test that allowed access to any notes you wanted,
| as the point was to demonstrate that you had internalized
| concepts, not just memorized facts.
| joshmarlow wrote:
| > how will we continue to assess expertise moving forward?
|
| This reminds me of something that I read once - allegedly
| Aristotle was actually against books; he believed that having
| ready access to books made it easy to 'fake' the type of
| education that requires mentorship.
|
| I think Aristotle's perspective doesn't really make sense today
| because (for better or worse) we emphasize the economic utility
| of education - is the person actually able to do the job that
| they claim to be able to? We don't consider the internal
| changes to the person caused by their education (alas...).
|
| > We will also expect our experts to have the deep
| understanding that comes from experience in a domain.
|
| I think Chalmer's concept of the extended mind is an
| interesting framing here - basically it's the notion that your
| mind doesn't end right at your skull. For the sake of argument,
| let's assume in the future that we'll have BCI that's good
| enough to let you text with you mind (something like what
| Neuralink is going for). If you've got an expert system in your
| head/pocket that's really good at dealing with some domain and
| you're really good at _phrasing problems in terms that the
| expert system can understand_ then you + expert system might
| have a super-human ability to solve problems in that domain.
|
| If I was hiring for that domain, I wouldn't particularly mind
| how much of your expertise is in biological tissue.
| jcranmer wrote:
| > This reminds me of something that I read once - allegedly
| Aristotle was actually against books; he believed that having
| ready access to books made it easy to 'fake' the type of
| education that requires mentorship.
|
| I think that was Socrates, not Aristotle. Socrates was very
| firmly against the concept of writing, and we know all about
| this only because his student was writing down what the
| teacher was telling him.
| whoomp12342 wrote:
| Keep making people memorize things!
| ricardobeat wrote:
| Isn't this already the case? At least in my experience
| interviewing for software development, all the questions are
| meant to test understanding and the ability to explore and
| solve problems, never static knowledge.
| moosey wrote:
| We already have the language to describe someone who claims an
| expertise in a knowledge area without the study necessary to be
| an actual expert: dilettante.
|
| And that's all that we'll actually be without memorization.
| There is a huge gap between someone with knowledge and
| expertise ingrained in their head, with a solid knowledge of
| the gaps in their knowledge, or understanding the layout of a
| knowledge realm that can only come from dedicated study of a
| subject, vs a dabbler or whatever level of expertise another
| individual might have with less stringent studies.
|
| This same problem exists in our education system and cramming.
| You can cram subjects and pass tests, but research had shown
| that the knowledge gain from this process to be extremely
| limited.
|
| Without a well ingrained knowledge of a subject, it is
| difficult to use that knowledge in creative thought, connecting
| with other realms of knowledge.
|
| If all of these human mental processes are replaced with
| computation, and people no longer put in the effort to learn
| challenging things, then I predict large amounts of mental
| decline. We may already be seeing this process. Perhaps I
| should say... "As we offload more mental processing to
| computers...", Because it's definitely a process that many
| people are going through.
|
| That isn't too say that computerized information is all bad. My
| wife would probably leave me if I didn't have a calendar app.
| balls187 wrote:
| Reminds me of programming in physics formulas in a Ti-83.
|
| Turns out, the act of programming the formula made it easy for me
| to recall it without cheating.
| doctor_eval wrote:
| I'm always amazed at the amount of trouble people will go to in
| order to build their lives on a foundation of lies. I know there
| are many reasons and pressures, but what a way to start your
| career. If you're successful, you're almost guaranteeing a life
| of stress - and that's assuming you don't kill anyone.
| mmmmkay wrote:
| at that point, just give them the A ;)
| megous wrote:
| I don't care about the ear guy, but how are people scaling the
| building not being noticed? Wtf? :D So bizarre.
| JoeAltmaier wrote:
| When does it become 'biological enhancement'? Maybe all doctors
| should have a bluetooth implanted, to connect them to an AI or
| online consultants at all times?
| airstrike wrote:
| *STARGATE SG-1 SPOILERS*
|
| The first episode of Stargate I ever watched sorta touched on
| this... It's the season 7, episode 5 called "Revisions" with
| Christopher Heyerdahl. Definitely recommend. It got me hooked
| on the franchise forever
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revisions_(Stargate_SG-1)
| snek_case wrote:
| Looked this episode up on YouTube. Some quality TV right
| here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_0O8zB5M_I&t=70s
| zionic wrote:
| The whole series is amazing. I strongly recommend watching
| SG1 S1-S7, then stargate atlantis S1 in parallel with SG1
| S8. Some of the best television ever made.
|
| https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/sci-fi/how-to-watch-
| stargate-i...
| adfgadfgaery wrote:
| An ordinary earpiece is better for all legitimate purposes.
| snek_case wrote:
| I'm curious what this "micro bluetooth" device looks like.
| abeppu wrote:
| It's bad enough when hospitals get hacked. I can't imagine the
| problems that happen when the medical staff's 'biological
| enhancements' are hacked.
|
| In this community we sometimes talk about how some technical
| interviews are deeply unrealistic because they remove the
| candidate from, e.g. their IDE with tab autocompletion, or
| googling, which you might normally depend on. Your skills are
| best measured when you have access to the tools and environment
| which you'd actually use while working. And yet ... sometimes
| you can pair program with someone and it's clear that they
| don't really understand what they're accepting from the
| autocomplete, and this is legitimate cause for concern.
|
| I think I want doctors to definitely know a bunch of stuff
| unaided, even if they would normally always have access to
| supplementary references. If nothing else, they should have the
| habits of mind to be able to critically evaluate their
| references, and notice when they're wrong or suspect.
| samstave wrote:
| Exactly ;
|
| A favorite joke:
|
| _" One shouldn't do [that medical procedure], as GOD made you
| perfect and you shouldn't mess with God's! plan!!!"_
|
| > Thats an interesting comment, may I ask - was God's plan to
| manufacture those glasses such that you can see clearly and
| read such from that book, made by man?
| jotm wrote:
| I used that argument for Jehova's witnesses and religious
| whatchacallthem on the streets... it's pointless
| mattigames wrote:
| You tried to explain a logical fallacy to someone who
| believes in invisible beings and it didn't work? Shocking
| /s
| yakubin wrote:
| Nit: practically everyone believes in invisible things,
| e.g. electrons, or black holes. :)
| colinmhayes wrote:
| In a similar vein...
|
| A fellow was stuck on his rooftop in a flood. He was praying
| to God for help.
|
| Soon a man in a rowboat came by and the fellow shouted to the
| man on the roof, "Jump in, I can save you."
|
| The stranded fellow shouted back, "No, it's OK, I'm praying
| to God and he is going to save me."
|
| So the rowboat went on.
|
| Then a motorboat came by. "The fellow in the motorboat
| shouted, "Jump in, I can save you."
|
| To this the stranded man said, "No thanks, I'm praying to God
| and he is going to save me. I have faith."
|
| So the motorboat went on.
|
| Then a helicopter came by and the pilot shouted down, "Grab
| this rope and I will lift you to safety."
|
| To this the stranded man again replied, "No thanks, I'm
| praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith."
|
| So the helicopter reluctantly flew away.
|
| Soon the water rose above the rooftop and the man drowned. He
| went to Heaven. He finally got his chance to discuss this
| whole situation with God, at which point he exclaimed, "I had
| faith in you but you didn't save me, you let me drown. I
| don't understand why!"
|
| To this God replied, "I sent you a rowboat and a motorboat
| and a helicopter, what more did you expect?"
|
| I know a few doctors who have told me they've used this one
| on people who refuse care for religious reasons.
| Unfortunately they said it rarely works.
| avgDev wrote:
| I would give so much to see doctors who simply "google" things.
|
| As someone who works as dev improving data and efficiency in a
| business.....i hate people who don't just google things. I
| implemented something a year ago, maybe its time to refresh my
| knowledge and see if anything has changed? Some doctors are
| infuriating, using knowledge they gained 10 years ago. Medicine
| also changes fairly quickly and quick search could really be a
| great tool.
|
| Imagine this, I have seen many physicians (40+) at top
| hospitals about "mysterious" symptoms due to a reaction to a
| medication. 3 agreed its possible. The symptoms are listed on
| the medication label, plus I have been tested for everything
| else under the sun. I have sent research to my primary
| physician who has said, I am the first patient to change his
| mind about a drug. A quick search just listing my vague
| symptoms would bring up a possible reaction, or just looking at
| the damn label.
| jnovek wrote:
| I can't agree with this enough.
|
| I deal with daily chronic pain which has rendered me
| essentially unable to work. My full-time job has been
| "patient" for almost three years.
|
| What I've learned is that you have to do their work for them
| if you want to make progress.
|
| Sometimes that means showing up with highlighted printouts of
| studies that they would never get around to reading if you
| didn't deliver them -- and follow up on them -- personally.
|
| Other times that means that means playing dumb and
| "presenting" (not faking, just highlighting) the right
| preliminary symptoms to get a key test ordered.
|
| I'm lucky in that I have education. I can read a study. I
| understand probability and statistics. I can learn
| terminology and use it (somewhat) correctly in a sentence. I
| often wonder how people without a STEM background get any
| care at all. Perhaps they don't?
|
| It's a horrible, broken system that amounts to little more
| than insurance-mandated gatekeeping.
| eitally wrote:
| My wife is a nurse who pivoted into pharma, and when our
| daughter was diagnosed with a heart tumor, the only thing
| that ultimately resulted in us finding the right case was
| my wife's experience and ability to 1) ask the right
| questions, and 2) conduct her own scientific literature
| search & meta analyses. I kept thinking throughout that, if
| we weren't able to do this, our daughter would probably die
| ... and how many millions of patients receive subpar care
| because they don't have the skills or knowledge to keep
| care providers (and insurers) honest.
| WalterBright wrote:
| There's a lot of medical misinformation online, too.
| avgDev wrote:
| Someone with an extensive education should be able to
| decide which information can be considered good. If not,
| then maybe we should stop testing memorization and focus on
| ability to solve problems using ALL tools available.
| TheCraiggers wrote:
| Presumably, doctors would have access to better information
| than the layperson, and know how to sift through it. I know
| the person you replied to said "Google", but that's been a
| fairly overloaded term for decades now.
|
| Personally, I would like to see a doctor searching a site
| made for doctors. Seeing one just do an actual generic
| online search would not give me much confidence.
| eitally wrote:
| One eye opening fact I learned when my family was dealing
| with a complex medical diagnosis was how specialists have
| seemingly the entire population of peers on speed dial.
| If you can help them connect dots to other specialists,
| they likely have the ability to get in touch with them in
| near real time. I mean, it may not be 100% reliable, but
| my new MO is to assume all physicians have a batphone,
| and to ask them to use it if they need additional
| opinions & insights.
| cruano wrote:
| I mean, it's not like they are going to ask wikihow.
|
| Updated versions of their books and medical journals, or
| even a stackoverflow-like platform where they could discuss
| and read answers would be magnitudes better.
|
| Maybe humans memorizing tons of information was the best
| approach for medicine a century ago, but it's not the case
| anymore
| Nextgrid wrote:
| Which is why having an expert sift through it is helpful -
| he can immediately rule out garbage from stuff that at
| least looks sane and might warrant further consideration.
|
| As engineers we do it all the time (sometimes
| subconsciously) when searching for technical documentation.
| Having that skill in other fields would be a godsend, but
| the next best thing would be to have someone else do it on
| our behalf.
| gbear605 wrote:
| There are medical databases specifically for things like
| this (not available to the general public), but doctors
| often don't reference them because of false confidence or
| time pressure.
| Zenbit_UX wrote:
| If been in a clinic where after describing my symptoms the
| doctor opened the computer and typed them into a search
| engine. I asked her if she was googling it and she said "sort
| of". She started telling me about a search tool doctor's use
| which is much more professionally focused than Google (who
| diagnoses everyone with cancer) and I was very impressed both
| with her honesty and that this existed.
|
| It's been a few years since so I don't remember if it was a
| windows app or a website but it did have a very 90s looking
| interface.
| Karunamon wrote:
| My primary did this. There's a site called UpToDate which
| Epic apparently has a one click integration with.
|
| It's basically medical Google.
| psyc wrote:
| I had exactly this happen once in a regular MD's office,
| but he was reading to me from literally the Wikipedia
| article on carpal tunnel, on a Chromebook. Actually
| Wikipedia.
| yupper32 wrote:
| I've had similar experiences like that; the doctor
| pulling up articles from common websites. But it wasn't
| the doctor pulling up the article because they didn't
| know what was in the article, it was them showing me so I
| can look it up later and read more if I wanted.
|
| Wikipedia seems like a poor choice, though. Maybe carpel
| tunnel is basic enough for Wikipedia to be fine. I've
| been shown stuff like Mayo Clinic articles.
| otikik wrote:
| I caught a gastrointestinal parasite in one journey to Brazil
| (I should have avoided the street food!) and I am 90% sure
| that my Spanish doctor just googled what the hell I had when
| she got the results of the analysis, right there in front of
| me. I am not 100% sure because I could not see her screen,
| but the (in)frequency of mouse clicks was consistent with
| someone going over google and reading a bunch of pages. And
| then suddenly she started typing a lot and didn't use the
| mouse at all - switched to her daily medical app, I presumed.
|
| The antibiotics she gave me did the trick. She was young,
| though.
| oceanplexian wrote:
| I used to work in this industry. Medicine is the most broken,
| indoctrinated, risk-averse, technology-averse industry of them
| all. These are people who still use fax machines. Ask your
| doctor for some basic imaging or so much as a print out of your
| chart and they'll deny your problem, then give you confused
| dirty looks and talk down to you.
|
| Compare that with Dentistry. I had a problem and walked in with
| an hour's notice, had a x-ray from a handheld scanner emailed
| to me with the problem highlighted within 5 minutes like
| something out of Star Trek.
| owenversteeg wrote:
| I agree, for some reason dentistry and orthodontics seem far
| more technologically advanced than the rest of medicine. In
| addition to handheld x-rays like you mentioned, I've seen
| dentists/orthodontists use 3D printers, 3D scanners (e.x.
| iTero Element) and modern composites. Small sample size, but
| all the orthodontists and dentists' offices I've been in are
| clearly embracing new technology as much as they can, while
| every doctor's office I've been in has seemed like it could
| be a hundred years old. I wonder why that is.
| elliekelly wrote:
| The cynic in me suspects it's because insurance companies
| and employer-provided insurance hasn't completely mucked up
| the market the way it has with healthcare. Sometimes I
| wonder if America's "best" (least resistant) path to
| single-payer healthcare is to start smaller scale with
| universal coverage for vision & dentistry and then slowly
| expand coverage from there.
| withinboredom wrote:
| That's not exactly the industries fault though. For example,
| in the US, you have to get a mammogram BY LAW. It doesn't
| even matter that there are better and more reliable methods
| to detect breast cancer, the law said it MUST be a mammogram.
| https://www.factcheck.org/2013/10/aca-doesnt-restrict-
| mammog....
|
| Anyway, then you have companies like Theranos who come along
| and prove why it's a good idea to be risk adverse. Snake oil
| has been sold for a long time, and it really isn't until
| "recently" that it has been illegal to sell it (since a bit
| after 1906, in the US).
| 2muchcoffeeman wrote:
| Is this an American thing?
|
| In Australia all imaging is stored on the cloud somewhere.
| For a reason unknown to me, you still get the huge envelope.
| But inside is just a piece of paper with some public id and a
| QRcode. You don't really need these. The doctor who ordered
| the imaging will automatically get forwarded the results. If
| you are refereed to a specialist, they will get it to.
| verisimi wrote:
| Bring on the neural lace!
| whoomp12342 wrote:
| yeah let me just lance myself right before a test and no one is
| going to notice my giant fucking stitch
| humansuit wrote:
| Assuming the student implanted the device in their own ear, they
| did learn enough to be dangerous. They'll show up as a
| transhumanist influencer at best and a back alley surgeon at
| worst.
| after_care wrote:
| Is there any literature about implanting such a device?
| zeepzeep wrote:
| Similar, this is about magnets in ears.
| https://forum.dangerousthings.com/t/tragus-implants-and-you-...
| https://forum.biohack.me/index.php?p=/discussion/2642/tragus...
| Both forums are the right place to find that info, though
| biohack.me is kinda dead.
| oblio wrote:
| Asking for a friend?
| after_care wrote:
| I'm curious because the last time I surveyed the literature
| of diy implantable devices there didn't seem to be anything
| on a power source strong enough for a bluetooth device to
| operate for hours at a time.
| zeepzeep wrote:
| There are, lithium batteries. The problem is, they outgas
| and explode. People do not want to implant these batteries,
| even with a low failrate and detectors.
|
| There were things, e.g. the NorthStar implant, which became
| EmbediVet. But for aforementioned safety issues, it wasn't
| even used for cows.
|
| Passive tech is the only thing right now (RFID, NFC)
| wildmanx wrote:
| Just for completeness since I didn't find a comment yet
| mentioning it: Time to turn exam halls into Faraday cages.
| aaaaaaaaaaab wrote:
| Hmm... about 10 years ago I helped a friend pass an oral exam by
| talking to him over the phone. He had this "headset" that came in
| two parts: a tiny magnet that you insert into your ear canal, and
| a necklace that your put under your shirt, which was basically a
| large coil that vibrated the magnet in your ear.
| samstave wrote:
| My apologies for said joke:
|
| > _I need you to help me pass an oral exam_
|
| >> _Whats the subject?_
|
| >>> _Biology_
|
| >>>> _uh... whats your gag relfex like?*_
| 0des wrote:
| > 2009
|
| What's up with all the legacy accounts acting up lately?
| samstave wrote:
| More experiential than you may have had?
| 4a3f35b5a wrote:
| Would love to know more details about this!
|
| - How did the "necklace" connect to a phone? (Since you were
| talking over the phone)
|
| - Was it bidirectional communication? How did friend
| communicate with you?
| tylergetsay wrote:
| These are pretty easy to find online:
| https://www.ebay.com/itm/254882338954
|
| Id rather fail an exam than put a tiny magnet into my ear in
| the hopes to get it back out...
| MengerSponge wrote:
| Sounds like a re-tasked hearing aid
| eunos wrote:
| This remind me of how strict Chinese national exams are (Gaokao).
| They even have signal jammers to prevent external communication.
| [deleted]
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