[HN Gopher] Popular Tibetan singer Tsewang Norbu dies of self-im...
___________________________________________________________________
Popular Tibetan singer Tsewang Norbu dies of self-immolation
protest
Author : ilamont
Score : 313 points
Date : 2022-03-15 17:14 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (tchrd.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (tchrd.org)
| infocollector wrote:
| I do wish the world would be more sympathetic to Ukraine and
| Tibet than it is currently (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibet).
| pm90 wrote:
| Indeed. Both the Tibetans and the people of Xinjiang deserve
| much better than what they currently have.
| kingkawn wrote:
| And those Afghanis now starving to death after being ravaged
| by imperialist war-adventuring for decades
| [deleted]
| tomohawk wrote:
| Yeah, creating educational opportunities for girls was the
| worst. Good thing that's all being put back the way it's
| supposed to be.
| hutzlibu wrote:
| And in Tigray and in Mali and in Yemen, ...
| tedk-42 wrote:
| And the Kurds in the middle east
| pm90 wrote:
| It feels surreal to think that I live on the same planet as
| people who face such suffering. I feel totally helpless and
| sad.
| zozbot234 wrote:
| It's a big mess. The major rivers of India and China all
| originate in Tibet, so having that whole area be under the
| control of either one of these two actors is a recipe for
| ongoing stability concerns in the region.
| Manuel_D wrote:
| I'm not sure how significant that geographic fact is. Tibet
| is incredibly remote and rugged. Any kind of dam project
| large enough to have downstream impacts would be infeasible.
| kebab wrote:
| I'm pretty sure the Vietnamese have already began to
| complain about the impacts of damming in Chinese Tibet.
|
| Though I read that in the news, so take it with a grain of
| salt
| Someone wrote:
| > The major rivers of India and China all originate in Tibet
|
| Apart from the Brahmaputra, which flows through the part of
| India east of Bangladesh, I have a hard time finding a major
| India river that originates in Tibet. Certainly, the Ganges
| flows west to east.
|
| What river(s) do I overlook?
| collyw wrote:
| There are 4 sacred river that originate from Mt Kailash as
| far as I remember.
|
| https://www.wondersoftibet.com/mount-kailash-four-river-
| sour...
|
| (I have kayaked the Karnarli, well worth a rafting trip if
| you are in Nepal).
|
| I think the Yarlung Tsangpo as well comes from one of them.
|
| https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/80558/yarlung-
| tsang...
|
| Ahhh, wait, in see you said India. That would be the Indus
| and Karnarli - which goes to the Ganges. Sorry rushed post
| not got time to remind myself.
| saiya-jin wrote:
| Indeed OPs comment doesn't make much sense. Ganges is
| sourced in Gangotri, Yamuna in Yamunotri which are in
| Indian territory, behing massive himalayan wall separating
| it from (occupied and formerly indian) chinese territory.
|
| Mighty fine hiking locations too!
| collyw wrote:
| The Karnarli comes from Mt Kailash, which is a tributary
| of the Ganges.
| Santosh83 wrote:
| Tibet has never been under the control of India as far as I
| know. It was an ethnically independent region in the past and
| now comes under the govt of China. So major Himalayan rivers
| originating in Tibet is a big gain for China and a strategic
| problem for India, considering China has already built
| several huge upstream damns across these rivers which
| irrigate much of N India.
| atdrummond wrote:
| I suppose one could claim that at the time of the
| Convention of Lhasa, Tibet and much of India swore
| suzerainty to the same nation of Great Britain.
|
| There's also the concept of Arkhand Bharat
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhand_Bharat) which is the
| notion of a unified Indian subcontinent.
| throwaway_1928 wrote:
| One may also observe that India is primarily Hindu, while
| Tibet is primarily Buddhist, which is an offshoot of
| Hinduism. Present day China is communist atheist, which
| has a lot less in common with Buddhism than Hinduism
| does.
| dorfsmay wrote:
| Reality is a bit more complicated, there are many
| religions in India and most people consider Buddhism not
| theistic.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_India
|
| https://qz.com/india/1585631/the-ancient-connections-
| between...
| pmoriarty wrote:
| _" most people consider Buddhism not theistic"_
|
| In practice, a lot of Buddhists are very theistic. Many
| of them worship various gods and Buddhas.
|
| In the West, Buddhism has been desacrilized to make it
| more palatable for Westerners, but in the East it's often
| way more religious and theistic, especially as the
| Buddhism that actually exists in those countries has
| often been blended with other indigenous religions which
| themselves are very theistic.
| treis wrote:
| That doesn't seem right. The North/East borders of India,
| Nepal, and Bhutan are along the Himalayas. Any river that
| flows in India should start on India's side of the mountains.
| throwaway158497 wrote:
| True. But sometimes there are small openings in the hills
| which are enough for rivers to rush through. Brahmaputra
| starts near Tibet, but enters India in the state of
| Arunachal Pradesh. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmaputr
| a_River#/media/File:...
| rajeshp1986 wrote:
| @treis, It doesn't work like that. Rivers can originate
| anywhere and flow in any direction. For ex- Jhelum and
| Indus rivers originate in India but flow through Pakistan.
| I am sure there are many other similar examples.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| In this case, though, they seem to be correct.
|
| A map of the Ganges watershed:
| https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ganges-
| Brahmaputra-M...
|
| Looks unlikely that Tibet could exert too much control
| over it.
| Ma8ee wrote:
| I'm quite certain rivers always flows downwards due to
| gravity. So mountain ranges tend to be problematic to run
| through.
| croes wrote:
| xadhominemx wrote:
| What are you talking about?
| microtherion wrote:
| Finland, probably...
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Gustaf_Emil_Mannerheim
|
| /s
| sofixa wrote:
| That man is a freaking legend. As all good historical
| figures, not entirely good or entirely bad ( nothing is
| black or white in this world), but certainly interesting
| and with huge contributions.
| croes wrote:
| MarkMarine wrote:
| croes wrote:
| BTW have you a source for you claim? Stalin killed 9 to 20
| millions people but many of them weren't jews.
| MarkMarine wrote:
| The book the Bloodlands is far better researched than I
| claim to be:
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloodlands
| croes wrote:
| From your link
|
| "Snyder provided a summary of the 14 million victims as
| follows:
|
| 3.3 million victims of "the Soviet Famines"
|
| 4.2 million victims of the German Hunger Plan in the
| Soviet Union, "largely Russians, Belarusians and
| Ukrainians"
|
| 5.4 million Jewish victims in the Holocaust
|
| 700,000 civilians, "mostly Belarusians and Poles", shot
| by the Germans
|
| 200,000 Poles were killed between 1939 and 1941 in
| occupied Poland, with each regime responsible for about
| half of those deaths
|
| 300,000 victims in the Great Purge in the Soviet Union
| from 1937-1938
|
| So 10.4 millions Hitler, 3.7 millions Stalin, how many of
| them jewish not mentioned.
|
| How do you get from that that Stalin killed more Jews
| than Hitler?
| ogogmad wrote:
| Stalin was indeed violently antisemitic. See: The
| "doctor's plot", "Trotskyism", "rootless cosmopolitans",
| etc.
|
| Russian nationalists do indeed idolise him. But he wasn't
| Hitler.
|
| That aside, I urge people to look up Stepan Andriyovych
| Bandera and see that this is yet more Kremlin
| disinformation. Other Eastern European countries have
| also had to grapple with the Fascist connections of their
| so-called freedom fighters and war heroes. Ukraine is not
| unique in this respect. Hell, even Winston Churchill (a
| figure revered throughout today's West) was deeply racist
| towards Indians. Does this reverence towards Churchill
| mean that the whole West needs to be denazified? Does the
| Southern US need to be denazified because some of its
| streets are named after racists like Robert E Lee? I
| thought that the pro-Putin people were against the "woke
| mob" taking down statues of controversial figures. Is
| Putin now woke?
| croes wrote:
| So Israel and the European Parliament are now part of
| Kremlin desinformation?
|
| How many indians did Churchill and his followers kill?
| ogogmad wrote:
| Wikipedia:
|
| > In December 2018, the Ukrainian parliament moved to
| again confer the award on Bandera but the proposal _was
| rejected_ in August 2019. [emphasis mine]
|
| Before that, they had recently voted in Zelenskyy as
| President, who's Jewish.
|
| Also, just to show that this isn't only a Ukraine
| problem, Romania's Antonescu took up a major role in the
| Holocaust, but was nevertheless revered as a "freedom
| fighter" by many Romanians until they were forced to
| grapple with the man's actions:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_Antonescu#Legacy - The
| man is no longer honoured by Romanians.
|
| It turns out that "freedom fighters" were sometimes
| complicated or very bad people. Unfortunately, people
| want their history to be clean and simple, and they
| choose to forget the ugly bits. They want their heroes to
| be pure. The Russians are as guilty of this as the
| Ukrainians and Romanians. Like the Romanians, the
| Ukrainians have slowly woken up to the magnitude of the
| crimes committed by their hero Stepan Bandera. I don't
| think they'll be honouring him anymore.
|
| > How many indians did Churchill and his followers kill?
|
| Bengali famine.
| [deleted]
| fsckboy wrote:
| dude, you just said "what about Stalin"
| MarkMarine wrote:
| That's the point
| fsckboy wrote:
| you complained about whataboutism and then you engaged in
| whataboutism
| sva_ wrote:
| > Stalin shot and killed more Jews than the Nazi ever
| could,
|
| I have doubts about that. Are you serious?
| MarkMarine wrote:
| Fair, I read this book:
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloodlands
|
| Which is well researched. The Nazis killed about 5.4
| million, Russians and Stalin killed the rest of the 14
| million people that died during this period
| sva_ wrote:
| This source does not seem to claim that the
| Russians/Stalin killed 14 million Jews, or more Jews than
| the Nazis did, which I doubted.
| necovek wrote:
| The Wikipedia page is pretty directly not stating that.
|
| Soviet Union was responsible for 1/3rd of the total death
| toll of 14M, with Nazi's Jewish victims being 5.4M. That
| puts the non-Jewish Nazi victims at 4M out of the total
| of 9.4M, and the Soviet Union victims at 4.7M (also note
| that this is Soviet Union of the time: while the
| officials behind these atrocities were likely Russian in
| majority, simply because Russians were majority of the
| population, I am certain not all of them were Russians --
| notably, Stalin himself was of Georgian descent).
|
| Note that all of these also cover only a particular area
| that were of interest to both Nazi Germany and Soviet
| Union (basically Western Soviet Union, Eastern Europe and
| Baltic states).
|
| Nazi Germany has done plenty of killings in the rest of
| the Europe too.
| croes wrote:
| https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documen
| tin...
| croes wrote:
| dev_throw wrote:
| Reminds me of the Neruda quote: "You can crush the flowers, but
| you can't stop spring from coming."
|
| Free Tibet
| edmcnulty101 wrote:
| I think this form of protest is outdated in modern times.
|
| We're constantly being bombarded by war footage, dead kids from
| school shootings, suicide bombings, and collapsing skyscrapers.
|
| This may have been significant back in the day but now it's
| hardly a blip on the radar of tragedies of people trying to send
| a message through violence.
|
| I personally find it to be a sad senseless outdated cultural
| practice , no matter what the message is.
|
| I find absolutely nothing powerful about killing oneself without
| taking a whole bunch of your enemies out at the same time.
| pasquinelli wrote:
| i can't agree about taking out a bunch of your enemies. the
| photographs of thich quang duc had such an impact because the
| practice was novel to the west. that novelty is gone. but there
| isn't any novelty in suicide bombing either. as far as sending
| a message goes, they are both outdated practices and a waste.
| technobabbler wrote:
| Freedom fighter or terrorist... once you use violence on your
| enemies, you obscure whatever your original message may have
| been and force public attention onto the violence instead. Do
| we remember Osama Bin Laden's pleas for justice, or just the
| collapsing skyscrapers?
|
| Self-sacrifice as an act of martyrdom lets you maintain the
| moral high ground, continue your role as the victim, and still
| speak your truth -- however quietly, in the modern attention-
| deficit, compassion-fatigued era.
|
| Also, keep in mind the power differential between China and
| Tibet. There is no feasible way for Tibet to even put up a
| fight, much less win an actual armed conflict. Suicide bombing
| would just bring even more terrible oppressions upon their
| people.
|
| The self-immolation isn't an act of grand military strategy.
| It's a desperate cry for justice in this world or their next,
| whispered into the wind and carried to an uncaring world. It's
| the sort of thing that requires a deep commitment to one's
| values, knowing its ultimate effect and still choosing to go
| through with it, not because it's strategically useful but only
| because you are exercising what little agency you have left
| with the ideals you've carried your whole life.
| wefarrell wrote:
| I'd encourage people to read the letter that Thich Nhat Hanh sent
| Martin Luther King on the self immolation of Vietnamese monks:
| https://plumvillage.org/about/thich-nhat-hanh/letters/in-sea...
|
| That letter started a correspondence between the two that led to
| MLK speaking out against the war in Vietnam.
| marnett wrote:
| Very relevant and very moving. Thank you for sharing.
| skilled wrote:
| I lived in Dharamshala (home to the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan
| government-in-exile) for 3 months a few years ago. My partner at
| the time went back to the US to visit family, and I didn't want
| to leave Asia so I went there since I had some interest in
| Buddhism at the time, too.
|
| In random book stores, I met actual monks who had served time (in
| China) as political prisoners. One of which had also written a
| book about it. It was kind of funny to walk in into a book store,
| see these two guys drinking tea and then get pulled into a
| conversation out of curiosity. But, as for the stories
| themselves, probably not that funny. Some of the people (monks,
| mostly) had physical scars and their stories were anything but
| fun.
|
| I also went to their offices (a modest distance away from the
| Dalai Lama temple, but very walkable) and got to speak to senior
| officials there. I asked them basics questions like, "What do you
| think is the future for Tibet?" and they were very accommodating.
|
| We had tea, laughed and talked life. At first they thought I was
| a journalist, which was hilarious since my approach was very
| blunt but curious at the same time.
| chaostheory wrote:
| > But, as for the stories themselves, probably not that funny.
|
| You can't mention this and not tell a story or two
| technobabbler wrote:
| So... what did they think was the future for Tibet?
| skilled wrote:
| I certainly didn't ask that question from a political
| perspective. I'm not delusional to assume that Tibet and its
| people stand a chance against China.
|
| And this was also reflected in their answers.
|
| They're mostly concerned with ensuring that people have a
| safe passage out of there (having the ability to go to India
| and lead a life without oppression), while trying to
| negotiate peace deals for sacred locations and the _deep_
| Tibet. But I do think that this has been consistently falling
| on deaf ears. And, of course, they are hoping that the Dalai
| Lama will choose to reincarnate again to keep the "fight"
| going.
|
| Getting out of Tibet is not exactly a walk in the park.
| Though, it is a walk. A long and gloomy walk through
| treacherous mountains which in 70%+ cases leave people with
| frostbite and other injuries.
|
| I befriended a yoga teacher who was teaching an authentic
| Tibetan practice, and he sometimes had people over at his
| studio who had the day prior arrived to Dharamshala, from
| Tibet, _through_ the mountain passages. It 's unreal.
|
| It's not like they have the luxury of an empire conglomerate
| like other modern countries, but India has been good to them.
| technobabbler wrote:
| Sounds like a strong people trying to make the best of a
| bad situation. Rugged to the core, yet softened by wisdom.
| R0b0t1 wrote:
| Is it expected Han Chinese will move in to displace the
| Tibetans? Why are they focusing on safe passage?
| virtualwhys wrote:
| Nit: you were likely in McLeod Ganj, Dharamshala is the city in
| the valley below (where few foreigners stay), and not terribly
| convenient to travel to/from if you were living in the city.
|
| That, or you were up in Dharamkat and hiked down into
| town/temple area where there are needless to say many Tibetan
| monks from the diaspora -- amazing part of India.
|
| Free Tibet
| peppertree wrote:
| What would be the endgame for Tibetan independence. I can see it
| going straight to theocracy.
| detcader wrote:
| Question: What do you think of Israel's governance and
| military?
| [deleted]
| orangepurple wrote:
| Self-determination
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| Is it really self determination if you swap out one group of
| despots for another rather than installing a democracy?
| rigden33 wrote:
| Well good for you cause the Tibetan Government in Exile and the
| Dalai Lama do not want independence.
| https://tibet.net/important-issues/the-middle-way-policy/
| yumraj wrote:
| Of course they do want the independence, why would they not.
| It's just that after decades of occupation and China's
| economic rise, they feel that that is an impossible goal, at
| least until China implodes like the USSR did - which may or
| may not ever happen.
|
| So, they are asking for the next best option as a compromise
| - even the proposal is called _middle-way_ for it is a
| compromise.
| rigden33 wrote:
| There are benefits to being associated with a global
| superpower in regards to quality of life improvements.
| Obviously they are not worth the cultural and human costs
| that Tibet is currently experiencing, but if we can get
| true autonomy, I don't see why you wouldn't want both. I
| say that as a Tibetan in exile.
|
| There are some Tibetans that don't think true autonomy is
| possible with the CCP and thus still want independence
| though.
| micromacrofoot wrote:
| if that's what they decide then that's ok
| yumraj wrote:
| It's for them, as in Tibetans, to decide, not China, not CCP
| nor anyone else.
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| Is it really though? Does this generation get to decide that
| all generations following it should live under a theocratic
| dictatorship? I'm not sure that's a whole lot better than
| Chinese control. Anyone who thinks the old Tibetan
| monarchy/aristocrat system was a good form of government
| should really read up on it and not just assume it was
| paradise for the Tibetan people. They still had serfs and
| slaves.
| cuteboy19 wrote:
| There are many kinds of "theocracy". The islamic republic
| of Pakistan is significantly better than Saudi Arabia. Or
| would your rather have them both as "rightful Chinese
| territory"?
| whimsicalism wrote:
| Sure, but are you at all familiar with the history of
| pre-CCP Tibet? Their "theocracy" was likely worse than
| Saudi Arabias, both in terms of the sorts of punishments
| they inflicted upon their populace (routine gouging of
| the eyes, chopping of the limbs, and then hanging up for
| display) as well as the autocratic (serf-like) structure
| built up.
| yumraj wrote:
| Could you please point me to an independent source which
| can confirm what you wrote, as in not Chinese/CCP
| propaganda to justify their invasion and occupation of
| Tibet.
|
| Also, looks like the Tibetan's are suffering exactly the
| kind of treatment as you wrote under the CCP.
| AussieWog93 wrote:
| Probably not the tone you're looking for, but definitely
| independent:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYEOSCIOnrs
| yongjik wrote:
| Are you sure you want to do comparison? As late as 1863,
| captured leaders of the Taiping Rebellion were sentenced
| to death by slicing flesh off the body until they died.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shi_Dakai
| whimsicalism wrote:
| This is whataboutism. No relevance to the issue at hand
| whatsoever.
| cuteboy19 wrote:
| I am more familiar with the history of pre British India.
| Thankfully the British "civilized" my country. Surely
| China will do the same to Tibet.
|
| The excuses people make for colonialism remain the same
| as centuries pass by.
| pasquinelli wrote:
| the history between china and tibet isn't the history
| between britain and india.
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| Religious based government is bad all the way around. It
| leads to persecution of other religions and even sects of
| the same religion (Sunni vs Shia). It's a bad thing to
| have at the core of your government. This used to be a
| 1st principal in the USA but the lines are becoming
| blurred by alt-right ideology that is seeping into and
| starting to control the republican party. I really hope
| it has peaked and is on the down swing because there are
| finally some GOP people pushing back against a Trumpist
| coup in 2024.
| manquer wrote:
| The history of Pakistan based terrorism in india suggests
| otherwise.
|
| Saudi Arabia funds conservative schools of Islam all over
| the world , however they have yet to involve themselves
| in the kind of state sponsored terrorism Pakistan does.
|
| For people outside these countries i would say Saudi is
| definitely better
| peppertree wrote:
| What are we going to do when Tibetans are ravaged by a
| theocratic government? Air drop some freedom and democracy.
| And maybe a few flag emojis on twitter.
| yumraj wrote:
| What is wrong with a theocratic government if the people
| want it and it suits their way of life, especially if it is
| a peaceful spiritual way of life and makes people happy.
| Last I checked Bhutan, which is also Buddhist, was doing
| well.
|
| Also, I hope you're not saying that the way of the
| China/CCP is better than how Tibetans were before Chinese
| invasion. I don't think they were ever _ravaged_ , unless
| you're referring to the Chinese propaganda to show them as
| the savior. And, if they were such a savior why are people
| killing themselves?
|
| Moreover, I'm assuming you're on a similar crusade against
| the Pope and other theocratic governments, of other
| religions, in the world.
| peppertree wrote:
| Bhutan government has done some brutal things to Nepalis
| in the 90's. Catholic church was much worse when it had
| actual power. State propaganda can be overwhelming to
| weak minds but a little history lesson can cure it.
|
| To be clear I'm not for CCP or any autocracy. I'm against
| theocracy.
| DomainEater247 wrote:
| You described some example of Theocracy's that performed
| brutal acts against those that were perceived as
| "others". USA is responsible for many deaths and is
| constantly invading countries. Since using examples of
| bad things a government type has done is enough to say
| that the type of government is bad, democracy in turn
| must be bad. /s
|
| Any form of government once formed is hard to change. How
| many governments do you see regularly changing from
| democracy to communism to theocracy to etc... Theocracy
| is a perfect valid form of governance.
|
| Religion's just like governments have multiple sides to
| them. Which side the rulers decided to focus on changes
| which actions are performed.
| JoeAltmaier wrote:
| Yes but unlike say a democracy, you can't vote the
| theocracy out. You can't be treated fairly if you are not
| of the official religion. You become an outsider, never
| to be treated like a full citizen, because of who you
| are.
|
| Imagine if instead of religion it was skin color, or
| gender, or hell even height - only people over 2 meters
| could be in government. Can we whitewash those too? Are
| they as legitimate as Theocracy? Why not?
| dash2 wrote:
| I wonder why you think Tibet would become a theocracy if
| it were independent. I don't think the current Dalai Lama
| would support that. Many places were not democratic
| before falling under foreign rule, but became democratic
| afterwards.
| lordnacho wrote:
| What's wrong with theocracy? Really?
|
| How about that you can't change it very easily once you
| have it? Or that it's based on authority, mostly of a
| small set of people? Or that religious issues have caused
| the slaughter of millions of people?
|
| Are you really abandoning liberal democracy because you
| happen to have found a religion you like?
| yumraj wrote:
| > Are you really abandoning liberal democracy because you
| happen to have found a religion you like?
|
| I've not found a religion I like :)
|
| I'd said what's wrong with theocracy _if_ that is what
| the people want, for example vote for. So, in effect it
| 's a democratically chosen theocracy. Is that not
| democracy after all?
|
| In other words, if Tibet were to become independent and
| the people chose Dalai Lama to be the head of the state,
| would it be a theocracy or a democracy or a theocratic
| democracy?
|
| But, I get your point.
|
| Still, I think we're getting ahead of ourselves debating
| future Tibetan government while it is being butchered
| under the CCP. We safely can punt this debate for later.
| whimsicalism wrote:
| Sure, if we just redefine "theocracy" to mean "democracy"
| then it isn't too bad at all!
| lordnacho wrote:
| Was Nazi Germany democratic because Hitler was elected? I
| doubt it. Once you preclude being able to remove the
| leader, which seems to be the case de facto or de jure (I
| don't know) you stop being a democracy.
|
| Russia is another one of those countries that had some
| kind of election in the past but going forward you can't
| really see them being fair elections.
|
| Of course people are free to elect eg the Christian
| democrats as often as they like, so long as they can
| choose otherwise. Japan and Mexico IIRC had people
| electing the same party for decades.
| lostcolony wrote:
| Depends.
|
| Is there some sort of founding document that enshrines
| the right to vote and replace leaders with a regular
| cadence, regardless of the desires of that leader? If so,
| then regardless of who they vote for, it's a democracy.
|
| If instead a person is appointed to lead, who will use
| their religion to decide state matters, and there is no
| way to remove them except for them to choose to replace
| themselves, then it's a theocracy.
|
| "Theocratic democracies" are unstable and don't last.
| There is no way for them to last. Either it allows those
| who are not of the same faith as the leaders to influence
| policy and have their voices heard and becomes a
| democracy, or it doesn't, in which case it is a
| theocracy, and a form of autocracy or oligarchy (just,
| one that claims divine authority instead of purely
| material authority).
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| They force others to believe as they do and likely any
| nonbelievers are either jailed or become rejected by
| society at large as untouchables. That seems as bad as
| most dictatorships, barring outright torture and
| indiscriminate execution for going against the state.
| [deleted]
| mbg721 wrote:
| We can put a wager on it suddenly being Catholics again,
| and then we can continue being lazy.
| RONROC wrote:
| StopDarkPattern wrote:
| There are many authors and traditions that have escaped the
| Himalayas. Please support these authors and programs as much as
| possible so the passion and wisdom lives on.
| ffwszgf wrote:
| Was he really that popular ? There's very little about him
| online.
| new_guy wrote:
| Really what's the point though? If you set yourself on fire and
| kill yourself?
|
| ..good for you, I guess? You don't achieve anything but your
| enemies laughing at what a moronic imbecile you are. At the end
| of the day they go home to their family, you not so much.
|
| Better to take your enemies with you[0], if you're really
| insistent on killing yourself then take them with you.
|
| [0]legal disclaimer, not advocating irl violence blah blah
| okasaki wrote:
| You literally are advocating irl violence though.
| cyberpunk wrote:
| As a zen Buddhist, I've always kinda felt our Tibetan 'dharma
| brothers' style of buddhism (admittedly, I don't know a lot
| about) feels much more like a proper religion than the kind of
| thing I've been into.. Which put me off quite a lot of it, I
| still hope to someday visit the place.
|
| It's pretty sad that such an essentially peaceful and
| introspective group of people are abused thus, even if they
| believe in some pretty mad shit.
|
| I've never worked out what china wants in Tibet tbh though, does
| anyone have a clue? Chan is bigger in .cn than Tibetan Buddhism
| (and chan (which became zen) also rejects any kind of eternal
| self / reincarnation / non-impermanence) and so thus there are no
| such thing as a lama.
|
| So I guess the restrictions / bad business china got unto in
| tibet are related to some kind of territorial dispute? But what's
| there? What do they gain?
|
| I can't see how it's making them a profit..
| technobabbler wrote:
| IMHO only, not an expert/informed analysis: Buddhism can be a
| risk to Chinese harmony if left to a separate authority (the
| real Dalai Lama). The Chinese grand social experiment of a
| strong state can only really work if they are relatively
| culturally homogenous, whether in Tibet or Hong Kong or
| Xinjiang or Taiwan. Dissent plants the seeds of change, and the
| CCP's system doesn't work when there is too much diversity of
| values. It's uber-collectivism in the name of the nation.
|
| China very rarely does anything in the name of short-term
| profit. Their government doesn't work on 4-year competitive
| cycles like ours does, they plan and orchestrate in decades,
| and to them it's safer to conquer and assimilate other
| territories while they are still underdeveloped than when they
| become too powerful, either economically (like Taiwan) or
| culturally (like Tibet) or both (like Hong Kong). Having a
| puppet religious master under their control, along with all of
| Tibet's future economic output, is reason enough to seize it,
| even the real gains won't be realized for another few decades.
| The artificial legitimacy of Chinese-controlled Buddhism would
| greatly expand their cultural sphere of influence both inside
| and outside their immediate borders.
| cyberpunk wrote:
| I would hope that China would understand Buddhism enough to
| know that there is no possible separate authority... I mean,
| the Heart sutra almost definitely came from China..
|
| Although, I admit that I do have a hard time knitting
| together Tibetan and Burmese etc forms of Buddhism with what
| my understanding is (zen). They seem to genuinely worship
| Gautama Buddha as if he was some kinda god or something.
|
| That's not what we're into at all. He was just a normal dude,
| in zen... And I mean... Dogen too. Both kinda interesting and
| insightful ones, ones we probably can learn something from
| (also learn some negative things from, e.g, O.G buddha walked
| out on his family (what a cunt!)) but yeah, there's no space
| laser eyes or anything in my book.
|
| Just some dudes that looked at a wall for some years, and
| realised they're essentially the same as the local lemon
| tree. Kinda makes sense to me.
|
| Takes a while though.
|
| Even though I'm a buddhist, I seem to really offend non-zen
| buddhists in this fashion, which I find kinda hilarious.
| technobabbler wrote:
| > I would hope that China would understand Buddhism enough
| to know that there is no possible separate authority... I
| mean, the Heart sutra almost definitely came from China..
|
| Speaking as an agnostic, outside observer looking in on the
| various forms of Buddhism:
|
| Buddhism has mutated a lot in its history, and every
| country it touches has been changed by it and in turn
| changes it. I don't think any two countries practice the
| same form of Buddhism. Some sects of it are strongly
| mystical and others are more rational, and deification is
| an important part of some practices (and practitioners) and
| not others. In the US, I've been to supposedly Zen
| practices that had an emphasis on "acknowledging/honoring"
| the bodhisattvas prior to meditation; to me, as an
| agnostic, it felt very similar to worship.
|
| "Buddhism with Chinese characteristics" (to steal a phrase)
| mixes their particular cultural norms with the Indian
| version, adds on Confucianism and Taoism to some degree,
| and then seeks to put it all under CCP control. Much like
| the Romans absorbed Christianity and added their own
| flavor, China does the same with its assimilees... again,
| for cultural and political hegemony. They are trying to
| weave the young puppet Dalai Lama into their own narrative,
| slowly and subtly.
|
| You are a Buddhist in the same sense that Protestants and
| Catholics are both Christian, but that never stopped them
| from disagreeing :) Weird, the arbitrary lines in the sand
| we like to draw, no?
| cyberpunk wrote:
| > In the US, I've been to supposedly Zen practices that
| had an emphasis on "acknowledging/honoring" the
| bodhisattvas prior to meditation; to me, as an agnostic,
| it felt very similar to worship.
|
| Oh yeah, this goes on. It's very common during zazenkai
| or sesshin to honour the ancestors and so some full on
| chants and even prostrations; I felt the same way as you
| did for at the beginning -- it really fucked with my
| atheist elitism, but really those problems were mine not
| theirs :}
|
| Wear the silly hat, do a few bows, it helps more than it
| hurts.
|
| And, sorry, there is no god outside of yourself :}
| clevergadget wrote:
| since you cant see me nod at you i am typing it _nods in
| agreement_ i am pretty sure all these people had some
| terrible opinions and bad habits no doubt
| amanaplanacanal wrote:
| The way I look at it: it's all skilful means. What you
| _believe_ isn 't the point, the _practices_ are to help you
| reach enlightenment. In that sense, it probably doesn 't
| matter if you practice zen, Tibetan, or Thai forest
| variety. But I'm pretty heretical by nature.
| pmoriarty wrote:
| _" Buddhism can be a risk to Chinese harmony"_
|
| It boggles my mind that anyone would consider to be
| harmonious a society that imprisons, tortures, censors, and
| brainwashes so many of its own people.
| AnimalMuppet wrote:
| "Harmony" is an important value in Confucianism, which
| means it's a value with a lot of importance in Chinese
| culture. Governments increase their legitimacy by being
| perceived to offer harmony. The Chinese government
| therefore couches its propaganda in terms of it offering
| harmony, and other things threatening harmony.
|
| I'm not saying that cyberpunk is a Chinese propagandist -
| just that he/she has adopted their term (perhaps from
| hearing them use it so much).
| estaseuropano wrote:
| I practice anapana and vipassana so can empathise, but it is
| plain ignorant to think Buddhists are necessarily peaceful.
| Tibet was a violent warrior kingdom and Buddhists have
| committed many crimes too. See the ongoing (!!) genocide in
| Myanmar where Buddhists slaughter Muslims. You could argue
| those agent real Buddhists, but thats just another Scotsman.
|
| I don't mean to diminish the crimes the Chinese continue to
| commit against the Tibetans, nor the benefits of Buddhist
| practice, but seeing Buddhism with rose tinted glasses is just
| not reflecting reality.
| mytailorisrich wrote:
| Tibet is strategically located and has been part of the Great
| Game in Asia for a long time.
|
| In fact, the British tried to invade it at the very beginning
| of the 20th century but hard landscape and the Tibetan and
| Chinese armies repelled them. Following that the Western powers
| even signed a treaty recognizing Chinese sovereignty over
| Tibet...
| DeusExMachina wrote:
| Tibet provides a lot of water to China and India
| cyberpunk wrote:
| And what, china thinks tibet will somehow find a way to stop
| rivers running? Or the kind of people who move individual
| ants while building temples would poison such waters? I still
| don't get it.
|
| Maybe it's those little blue flowers from Batman Begins
| they're after? >_<
| throwaway_1928 wrote:
| China is already planning the "world's riskiest mega dam"
| in Tibet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEYuRFJ12iw.
|
| It plans to use water supply as a weapon against India.
| bigcat123 wrote:
| jhvkjhk wrote:
| The video said the aim is to reduce CO2 emission.
| soperj wrote:
| If they don't take it, who will?
| billiam wrote:
| Minerals, particularly rare earths, that are a huge strategic
| asset to China and their desire to dominate the world economy.
| It's also in a strategic place vis a vis India, and they can't
| tolerate even a degree of autonomy of such a large area
| adjacent to their rival in Asia. But the real threat is a
| national and religious identity separate from China.
| dirtyid wrote:
| It's 1/10 of modern Chinese territory, no one is going to give
| up that much land. Headwaters to major rivers feeding South
| Asia. Security, see CIA's Tibet program. Unlimited mineral
| resources.
|
| >making them a profit
|
| It's mostly not, spending billions on high speed rail and other
| infra linkage to control restive region and the entire western
| theater command security network is expensive. But wealth + new
| military capabilities makes taming this frontier feasible.
| Military forces in Tibet can reach huge strategic areas of
| South Asia while Tibet itself is buffer from core PRC
| territories. The richer PRC is is, the easier exploiting Tibet
| becomes, and the more there is to be gained. Serious mining
| started just 10 years ago.
| whimsicalism wrote:
| They were not so peaceful and introspective when they were
| actually in power. This is basically a CCP talking point at
| this point, but it is pretty true that the system they governed
| was essentially a serfdom-powered society.
|
| See the sort of punishments that were common for people who
| tried to organize the serfs in any way:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lungshar
| technobabbler wrote:
| Just as a side thought... if you look long enough at any
| country's history, you'll surely find horrors and terrible
| individuals. But that rarely means that country or its modern
| descendants would want to be "liberated" by a foreign
| conquerer, whether that's China or the USA. Forced
| assimilation is a form of genocide and people would almost
| always choose to be oppressed by one of their own rather than
| a foreigner...
| whimsicalism wrote:
| Not saying it does, although for note this structure I'm
| describing was Tibet in the 1940s-50s, so not too far in
| the past. They guy who did this blinding is the guy who
| picked the current Dalai Lama
|
| Agree that a regime being "better than" one that existed in
| the past doesn't justify repression, but also what is
| "foreign" and what is not is something that is socially
| constructed and shaped by the passage of time, not
| objective fact.
|
| For instance, I would not have preferred for the South in
| the US to be able to secede because "repression by a local
| is better than foreign Northerners."
| rackjack wrote:
| Reminds me of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_
| lynching_Negroes
| whimsicalism wrote:
| Not quite, since I'm specifically responding to someone
| describing how "peaceful" Tibet's society was.
|
| Indeed, pointing to rhetorical fallacies deployed by the
| Soviet Union to distract from a discussion of Tibet is
| more likely to be whataboutism itself?
| hutzlibu wrote:
| Thats true, but you do not have to look long to see, that
| Tibet was a feudal theocracy, with no dissent allowed,
| either. But that is history. Modern Tibet deserves to make
| their own choices, I hope they get the chance to make them
| one day.
|
| And about old Tibet, I recommend "Seven Years in Tibet",
| real story of a Nazi who fled a british war prisoner camp
| in india and then spend 7 years in Tibet, also as a teacher
| for the young Dalai Lama, until the chinese came. I read
| and recommend the book, but they also made a Hollywood
| movie with Brad Pitt out of it (which I have not watched
| yet, it is supposed to be good, but likely not as deep).
| tomohawk wrote:
| What the CCP is doing to Tibet is beyond belief.
|
| The ethnic cleansing they pioneered there was perfected in East
| Turkistan.
| werewolf wrote:
| I believe many "Czechoslovaks" feel with Tibet and also Ukraine
| these days. For those interested in history of "living torches"
| fighting for freedom:
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Palach
| soco wrote:
| In communist Romania, 2 March 1988...
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liviu_Cornel_Babe%C8%99
| Claude_Shannon wrote:
| And in Soviet-occupied Poland...
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryszard_Siwiec
| marius_k wrote:
| Romas Kalanta in Lithuania 1972.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romas_Kalanta
| CyanBird wrote:
| Yeah, the cases of normal US citizens lighting themselves on
| fire to protest against the war in Vietnam was jarring, they
| would also do it right in front of the White House or other
| centers of US power
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Self-immolations_in...
| WithinReason wrote:
| The most famous self-immolation is of Thich Quang Duc (photo):
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%ADch_Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_%C4%9...
| latchkey wrote:
| I lived very close to there and drove by the location every
| day. It is on a very busy street where you would never imagine
| that something like this would have happened. It wasn't until a
| local pointed it out to me that I realized what it was. The
| monument is beautiful.
|
| https://goo.gl/maps/k2dsRfHeNXYW2My2A
| monkeybutton wrote:
| The Arab spring started with one too:
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Bouazizi
| make3 wrote:
| that must be a terrible way to go.
| hackernewds wrote:
| it should be. and then you watch these monks with absolute
| mental control just sitting in the fire meditating until
| they're ash
| sixQuarks wrote:
| This is one of the most fascinating things. It is close to a
| real life miracle in my opinion. To not even move when you're
| experiencing that level of pain, it's awe inspiring
| suifbwish wrote:
| They have the ability to turn off their pain entirely so
| it's less of a miracle than if they were experiencing it.
| bena wrote:
| They are experiencing it. Just because you aren't letting
| the pain dictate your actions, it doesn't mean you aren't
| experiencing it. It's about not letting your reflexes
| override your control.
| treeman79 wrote:
| It's absolutely shocking how much pain you can be in
| before losing control if your willpower is strong enough.
| pvaldes wrote:
| > It's shocking how much pain you can be in if your
| willpower is strong enough.
|
| Or you are drugged with something strong enough. A much
| simpler explanation that doesn't require to believe in
| guys developing supernatural superpowers.
| emptysongglass wrote:
| There's no control to lose. There's no one suffering. The
| willpower to arrive at the experience is shocking but
| there's no sustaining of will once arrived at.
| justinpowers wrote:
| They don't "turn off" pain. Likely, they either objectify
| it (i.e. dispassionately observe the experience of pain)
| or ignore it (i.e. focus on a separate sensation) or
| dilute it (i.e. focus on "nothing" or alternatively, the
| all-encompassing sensation of "being", the "now", so that
| the experience of the pain is not the sole focus of their
| attention).
| emptysongglass wrote:
| If the sense door of anatta [1] I walked through almost a
| decade ago now is any indication it's the former. The
| pain is still pain and as vivid but because not-you
| there's no clinging therefore no suffering.
|
| [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatta
| joeberon wrote:
| Aunche wrote:
| Am I the only one who is deeply uncomfortable with the
| glorification of self-immolation in Tibet? These are nearly
| always young men, often times teenagers. One must question
| what sort of upbringing they must of had to sacrifice their
| life in that way for the sake of their religion.
| pvaldes wrote:
| BuildTheRobots wrote:
| My understanding is that it's pretty much the worst way to go,
| and only really gets used by people trying to make a (usually
| political) statement. It also has form in this region - see
| Thich Quang Duc.
|
| A desperate last stand to try and make a statement about
| censorship and repression, which ironically seems to have had
| all evidence censored and repressed. Truly awful.
| yumraj wrote:
| that in itself should tell what the alternate was that the
| person chose to end his life like this over living like that.
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