[HN Gopher] Arizona moves to ban recording video of police ___________________________________________________________________ Arizona moves to ban recording video of police Author : Eddy_Viscosity2 Score : 206 points Date : 2022-03-19 20:28 UTC (2 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.fox10phoenix.com) (TXT) w3m dump (www.fox10phoenix.com) | ffhhj wrote: | Recording at 8 feet with halogen lamp to the face and pole | microphone, ok sir? | encryptluks2 wrote: | kgwxd wrote: | Why is video even mentioned? Either it's safe to be within 8 ft | or it isn't, regardless if they're recording or not. By making it | about video, your actual motive is crystal clear. | morsch wrote: | This is an issue in Germany, as well. People are prosecuted for | recording police interactions regularly; sometimes they get away | with it, sometimes they don't. As far as I know, there are no | laws specific to recording the police, it's based on laws that | apply to recording private conversations and taking/publishing | pictures without consent. | | https://www-deutschlandfunk-de.translate.goog/fotos-und-vide... | FpUser wrote: | Crooks | sofixa wrote: | Such laws are great, but there should be explicit exceptions | for public servants on duty such as police. | insickness wrote: | In the U.S., the law is delineated where there is "an | expectation of privacy." In other words, you can record | anyone anywhere in public, but you can't record in a bathroom | or dressing room. Police officers should not have an | "expectation of privacy." Interestingly enough, you can | record through the windows of someone in their house, the | courts have determined. | tormock wrote: | I was just watching a video of about 6 officers killing/pinning | down someone and that happened about 2 months before George | Floyd's story: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybWJe6G5guc (no- | one got charged even if it was caught on video (and not that it | matters, but the victim was white)) ... I have see a lot worst | before but not when that many officers were involved. | [deleted] | kingcharles wrote: | Only a prosecutor can bring charges against the police. How do | you think the prosecutor's office is going to get cases if it | antagonizes the police that supply them? | Buttons840 wrote: | We should have another elected official responsible for | bringing charges against police, separate from the | prosecutors. | worik wrote: | We have that in Aotearoa. I thing England does too. | | It is a help, better than the police investigating | themselves. | | But class issues really come into play. The investigators | are all lawyers and have never lived the sort of life where | they are bullied by the police, and they have no idea of | the dynamics. | | We can always do better, in this case we are doing better | than we were but it is still quite bad | jjtheblunt wrote: | in the US that's the District Attorney or Attorney General, | i think, but forget which is which. | geoduck14 wrote: | The police don't support the DA | giraffe_lady wrote: | I don't know what meaning "support" is carrying here so | it's hard to mount a clear defense. | | But they work closely together, and each's work depends, to | some extent, on the other. So they each have certain | incentives, which lead them to generally act in certain | ways towards each other. | | I am comfortable calling that support? Could you suggest | another concise, easily understood alternative term, if you | have one in mind? | daenz wrote: | >(and not that it matters, but the victim was white) | | If BLM wanted to add legitimacy to their cause, especially to | those on the fence, they would raise awareness to these non- | black deaths in the same way that they do when it's black | deaths. Standing against unjustified police violence against | _any_ person is not at all against the "black lives matter" | premise. In fact, speaking up about it would help people relate | to their cause. But, for one reason or another, they seem to | stay relatively silent. | heavyset_go wrote: | I recall when the Daniel Shaver murder happened, a lot of the | same people who now criticize BLM were criticizing Shaver for | not listening to the police, or saying he deserved what | happened to him, and objected to the idea of police brutality | existing at all. | daenz wrote: | Wrt Daniel Shaver, from my experience, most people that I | know just didn't care very much. It's sad, it shouldn't | have gone down like that (much like many other instances), | but at the end of the day, there's only so much emotional | bandwidth to spend, and it can't all be allocated on | everything at the same time. | seizethegdgap wrote: | https://blavity.com/blm-activists-call-attention-to- | graphic-... | | https://www.nola.com/opinions/article_4f6138fe- | ea8c-551b-9e6... | | https://www.12news.com/article/news/local/valley/mesa- | rally-... | daenz wrote: | I carefully chose the words "relatively silent." As in, | relative to when the victim is black. I don't see how | anyone can argue that it's anywhere near the same level of | intensity for non-black vs black. | jjulius wrote: | Huh, it's really weird that a group focused on | eradicating systemic racism would choose to highlight the | racist moments. How strange. | daenz wrote: | Yes, to their own disadvantage. My argument is that they | would persuade many more people to their cause. Is your | argument that they shouldn't do that, or that you don't | think it would work? | wpietri wrote: | If you think you can do better than the activists for a | given cause, I suggest you get out there and do it so we | can see the superiority of your position. Otherwise, I | think it's basically the same as armchair quarterbacking: | people who have less expertise and no stake acting as if | they know better than the people deeply involved in the | problem. | daenz wrote: | We're having a discussion, and I asked a fairly direct | question. If your response is to stop the discussion | because you think no one is qualified here to discuss it, | then you are welcome to not participate. | jsnodlin wrote: | gutitout wrote: | "But, for one reason or another, they seem to stay relatively | silent." | | The one reason is they, are not black. | daenz wrote: | Should my conclusion be that the reasons for unjustified | police violence against blacks and the reasons for | unjustified police violence against non-blacks have no | overlap, and should therefore only be addressed by an | identity-oriented organization for each race? | [deleted] | sixothree wrote: | Just because you haven't bothered to pay attention doesn't | mean it isn't happening. | | Consider this whenever you claim "someone" isn't doing | something. They very well might be and you look stupid when | you are shown otherwise. | [deleted] | daenz wrote: | I chose my words carefully to say, not that it "isn't | happening", but that it isn't happening at anywhere near | the same level. If you're going to suggest that I "look | stupid", please accurately represent the argument that I | "look stupid" about. | markdown wrote: | > If BLM wanted to add legitimacy to their cause | | The cause isn't "stop police violence", it's stop systemic | racism within the police forces of the USA. Police violence | disproportionally affecting black people is a symptom of that | systemic racism. | worik wrote: | True. | | And systematic racism is a symptom of the cruel bigotry and | prejudice throughout society. | | Anti racism campaigners are doing work for all of us who | find our selves on the outside of the right side. | | Edit: I do not live in the USA. I do not have an experience | of racism there. I might be missing something | tzs wrote: | Would you make a similar argument to people trying to raise | awareness of and research funding for breast cancer? Should | they be talking about heart disease too? Just trying for a | general increase in research funding for all diseases? | | I do agree that BLM made a mistake though--they should have | called it "Black Lives Matter, Too". That would have made it | clearer what they are going for. | worik wrote: | All lives will matter when black lives matter. | | That is what it means. To any body not either racist or on | the autistic spectrum and very pedantic, it is obvious that | is what it means. | unfocussed_mike wrote: | It's so painful to have to say this again and again, and | I am glad of anyone who does. | sfdh789 wrote: | californical wrote: | Wow, truly incredible and sad. | juanani wrote: | barnabee wrote: | There can be no justification for this. | [deleted] | fredgrott wrote: | obviously they had a problem reading the US Constitution | nwienert wrote: | For some context not in this thread yet, I'm sure this is being | driven in part by cop watchers like James Freeman who are really | doing God's work by bringing attention to rampant corruption of | police against recording. | | Highly recommend watching a few of his videos, here's a mix of | his run ins with Tucson police: | https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEHv5tmOgVtXPiKPLK1cCp8An... | | Those saying "8 feet seems reasonable" haven't thought through | this _at all_. Watching James' videos the cops are constantly | trying to push him, crowd him and generally do anything in (and | out) of their power to try and shut him down. With a rule like | this they would absolutely abuse it by just having one officer | move forward into your space even if you back away. You | absolutely cannot give them leeway like this, if you don't | believe me watch some of the videos. It's really eye opening what | they try and get away with. | jawns wrote: | Sean Paul Reyes of the YouTube channel Long Island Audit is | another good example. He has multiple videos of himself | engaging in constitutionally protected activity, but police | officers routinely harass him and in some cases get physical. | In one recent case in Connecticut, he was assaulted and had his | phone thrown by an officer who lost his temper, and no other | officer intervened. | tgb wrote: | I'm shocked at the support for this here. It doesn't matter that | it only applies to within 8 feet and if it's an interaction with | someone else. No one should have to know a law about whether they | can record police or not. What are you going to do, look up the | law when an officer tells you to stop recording? Remember if you | refuse it's a 30 day jail time you could be facing. Want to take | bets on whether the officer is lying or you misremembered the | allowed distance and conditions? What if a second police officer | then approaches you, do they get to box you out by just standing | there? There's no reason this can't be handled by generic laws | for not interfering with police that I'm sure already exist. It's | either pointlessly redundant or will be abused. | dylan604 wrote: | New app idea to pitch: have the camera app overlay the distance | using the lidar system. | [deleted] | kodah wrote: | The argumentation you're using can pretty much apply to any | mature legal system. Usually when this is argued it's in the | form of an old Bloomberg opinion piece, "70% of people have | done something worthy of jail time and didn't even know it" [1] | All that to say, that bit of reasoning is probably more apt for | a different discussion. | | I don't really have an opinion as to whether it's ethical or | not ethical to video a traffic stop. It does kind of sound like | lighting a match when soaked in gasoline though. | | 1: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2014/dec/08/stephen- | ca... | tgb wrote: | I don't see that as relevant to my points. My main point is | that an officer can easily abuse this law due to asymmetric | information/outcome despite the limits in the text. The | officers that would do this are exactly the ones that need to | be recorded. | kodah wrote: | True, sorry I didn't get to that point. That point is | nothing new about police. Ever seen cops stack charges on | someone? They write a long list of micro-grievances that | you have committed and make you answer for them | individually. The system rests on this idea that no one is | harmed by charging someone with a crime, and that it is a | DAs job to determine whether or not a crime has been | committed. | | The reality is that DAs rarely drop charges when they | should (or don't enough, take your pick) and merely | charging someone with a crime has lots of legal and extra- | legal consequences. It's a shit system, imo, but depending | on the situation people are in they either love or hate | this system. If you are an agrieved party, then you likely | like this system because it's laced for vengeance and | action, while if you're trying to make a case that you | didn't violate the law or even _know_ that something was a | law it 's like walking uphill in a foot of mud. | ctoth wrote: | > I don't really have an opinion as to whether it's ethical | or not ethical to video a traffic stop. It does kind of sound | like lighting a match when soaked in gasoline though. | | What? Under what possible interpretation of ethics might it | not be ethical to video tape a public official interacting | with a citizen? This just doesn't even make sense as a | sentence to me. Segmentation fault (core dumped) | kodah wrote: | I could see it not being ethical if a person is being | provocative. If it's just a dash-mounted camera or one | pinned to the person's body (like a cops) that seems | perfectly ethical. | ctoth wrote: | Then the provocative behavior is potentially unethical, | not the recording? Seems like a very important | distinction to make. | kodah wrote: | Yeah, could be, though I think the two in combination | probably makes for a force multiplier. | judge2020 wrote: | > The original proposal from Rep. John Kavanagh made it illegal | to record within 15 feet of an officer interacting with someone | unless the officer gave permission. The revised bill was approved | on a 31-28 party-line vote Feb. 23 and lowers the distance to 8 | feet. | | And the exception for recording when in a car: | | > It also now allows someone who is in a car stopped by police or | is being questioned to tape the encounter and limits the scope of | the types of police actions that trigger the law to only those | that are possibly dangerous. | ethbr0 wrote: | 8' seems pretty reasonable. | | Are there circumstances where you would have a valid interest | in filming from closer than 8'? | | This feels like a response to someone shoving a phone in an | officer's face and claiming they're protected by the First | Amendment. Which... seems unreasonable. | | There's a clear public safety interest (both to the officer's | own person, and to anyone the officer is interacting with, by | not distracting anyone and/or increasing tension in the | situation) and the public's right to record seems unimpinged by | an 8' limit. | | But this is from someone recently of Georgia, where we had | people on both sides of the election fiasco harassing people | while claiming journalistic protections. | ramesh31 wrote: | > limits the scope of the types of police actions that trigger | the law to only those that are possibly dangerous. | | And that means the entire law will be applied at will, by the | sole discretion of the officer involved. It's the same nonsense | they've used for decades to harass anyone they claim "smelled | like marijuana". | [deleted] | mwt wrote: | I'm always weary of "legislator/body proposes <thing that seems | obviously bad>" headlines since many politicians fundraise via | grandstanding bills that are DOA. This passed the house, though, | so it's not that sort of thing. And it passed by a party line | vote, so with one party having a majority of the senate and | governorship, I guess it's going to become law? | [deleted] | hirundo wrote: | "The original proposal from Rep. John Kavanagh made it illegal to | record within 15 feet of an officer interacting with someone | unless the officer gave permission. The revised bill was approved | on a 31-28 party-line vote Feb. 23 and lowers the distance to 8 | feet." | | Requiring an eight-foot filming bubble around a working cop seems | reasonable in terms of not disrupting their job, and unlikely to | trigger a federal first amendment slapdown. With a modern phone | you can capture all of the detail that's typically needed at that | distance. | | I'm a first amendment absolutist to most people, and this bothers | me little. | avs733 wrote: | > seems reasonable | | which is exactly the goal...something that _seems reasonable_ | while enabling abuse. | TeaDrunk wrote: | Scenario: A policeman is performing brutality on someone while | multiple peers observe. Those peers approach anyone recording, | such that it forces anyone recording to traverse further and | further away. (And if those people stand their ground, cops are | now able to arrest them for being within 8 feet.) What then? | ramesh31 wrote: | >Requiring an eight-foot filming bubble around a working cop | seems reasonable in terms of not disrupting their work, and | unlikely to trigger a federal first amendment slapdown. | | Nonsense. There's already a ton of laws on the books about not | impeding emergency services in public. This would do nothing | but give cops carte blanche to arrest anyone with a camera. | seanw444 wrote: | I think leaving the law at "don't interfere with the police | during their job" is good enough. Making static rules like this | is normally a bad idea. And we won't know why until there's a | scenario where we regret passing it. | Taylor_OD wrote: | Right. Something that comes to mind is is multiple cops | arrive and make a perimeter they can continue to move people | back and say they have to be 8 feet away from THEM which | could make the cop in question many many more feet away. | | It's easy to see how this will be abused. The existing law | seems to be working well. | avs733 wrote: | >I think leaving the law at "don't interfere with the police | during their job" is good enough. | | Those already exist, of course, including[0]: | | * Failure to comply with police officer; classification | | * Refusing to Aid a Peace Officer | | * Obstructing Criminal Investigations of Prosecutions | | * Refusing to provide truthful name when lawfully detained | | * Impersonating a public servant | | * Obstructing a highway or other public thoroughfare | | No matter how reasonable the law may read on its face, the | clear goal is empowering more police abuse and less | oversight. The history of police conduct in arizona makes | this readily apparent.[e.g., 1] | | [0] https://www.jacksonwhitelaw.com/criminal-defense- | law/obstruc... | | [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/08/31/actor- | steve... | insickness wrote: | The problem is when officers construe filming video as | interfering with their job. I wonder if this law would | paradoxically enshrine the right to film officers anywhere | outside of 8 feet. | jyounker wrote: | Note that this makes it impossible to film a police officer | while they are confronting you. | oh_sigh wrote: | It's always better to go directly to the source, rather than | rely on someone else's summary of something as a source for | analysis. Your concern is addressed in the actual text: | | https://www.azleg.gov/legtext/55leg/2R/summary/H.HB2319_0223. | .. | | > Provision 4: Provides that a person who is the subject of | the police contact may make a recording if doing so does not | interfere with lawful police actions. (Sec. 1) | jyounker wrote: | Yeah, I actually did that, and just came back to delete my | comment, but you've already replied, so I can't any more :) | gorbachev wrote: | That is statement is going to be used quite often by cops. | Brian_K_White wrote: | The officer has taken your phone. | | Or knocked it to the ground while you were "resisting". | | Or you are handcuffed. | | Or there are multiple officers but your phone only points | in one direction at a time. | | The officers own body cams are on while _they_ are within 8 | feet of _you_. | | There is no way to make this valid. The supposed rationale | falls apart under any scrutiny at all. | jyounker wrote: | I take back what I said. It doesn't actually address my | concern. | | All the officer has to say is that your filming was | interfering with their actions, and then they'll slap that | charge on you and confiscate your phone, possibly combining | with resisting arrest. Also, the worse the officer's | transgression is, the more likely that your phone will be | "accidentally damaged". | | Even if the officer's claim is bullshit, the cost of | defending against their bullshit is going to be infeasible | for many. | worik wrote: | Also, if you are not a hardened criminal, getting | arrested is a shocking event, and the support of friends | with video cameras can make the difference. Literally, if | not often, life and death. | worik wrote: | Reading between the lines the purpose of the bill is not to | make police jobs easier by keeping clear space around them. | | IMO the purpose is to remind the plebeians exactly what's what | and what their position in society is. | ajju wrote: | I think such a law would clearly violate the first amendment. | | https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2020/1/23/21078810/kansas... | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: | Right. It won't survive a lawsuit. | humanistbot wrote: | But it will have a chilling effect while the court system | works its way to the case, and even after it (hopefully) gets | overturned. | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: | I doubt it. You'll never stop people from making cell phone | videos. | worik wrote: | The chilling effect is reminding the victims of the | police that they have no friends in the establishment, | surely? | dymk wrote: | The law not surviving the court system would be contrary | to that. | giraffe_lady wrote: | hey quick question when a law goes away what do you think | happens to all the people in prison for violating that | law | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: | > Kavanagh's bill makes a violation a petty offense, the | lowest-level Arizona crime that can bring a fine but no | jail time. Refusing to stop recording when an officer | orders it would be a low-level misdemeanor subject to a | 30-day jail sentence. | giraffe_lady wrote: | It can still do a lot of damage. Arrest and exposure to the | criminal legal system carries heavy costs and risks for very | many people. Those things aren't undone when, years later, it | gets declared unconstitutional because someone else's case | finally made it through the process. | x86_64Ubuntu wrote: | Yes, but in the meantime, the cops are allowed to beat, | detain and arrest you. While your case rises to a right-wing | packed SCOTUS, you will most likely lose your job, have | issues with any kind of clearance (resisting arrest can be a | felony depending on circumstances), face difficulties during | any custody battle and possibly be incarcerated. Then if the | courts rule in your favor, you receive nothing except your | world reduced to ashes. In the US justice system, the process | is the punishment. | jjulius wrote: | This entire hypothetical assumes the law remains in place | as the lawsuit works it's way through the system. | treeman79 wrote: | So you would like limits on police and state power? Well | that's a right wing goal. | woodruffw wrote: | I don't think you'll be able to successfully draw a | disjoint "left wing" or "right wing" circle around people | who want there to be limits to the police and/or state's | authority. It's more or less a universally held position | in liberal democracies. | mindslight wrote: | Neither directional wing gets to claim ownership of that | goal. Grassroots "left" and grassroots "right" both | desire limits on government power. The professional | parties both give the goal some acknowledgement, and then | turn around and herd people into their sponsors' top-down | authoritarian policies. When you make statements like the | above, all you're essentially doing is attacking the | other tribe based on their entrenched politicians while | giving your tribe a pass based on its grassroots. In | actuality, if you want reform you need to do the exact | opposite and focus on criticizing your own tribe. | woodruffw wrote: | A longstanding political technique in the US is to pass | patently unconstitutional laws and then ignore their | enforcement. This accomplishes both goals: it scares citizens | into changing their behavior (in this case, not recording | police abuses), and it keeps the lawsuits away (the current | standard for legal standing in the US requires demonstrable or | imminent harm, which doesn't exist in the absence of | enforcement). | | That technique is unlikely to succeed in this particular case | (since the 1A standard for harm is much lower), but it's worth | noting. | tyronehed wrote: | I will be curious to see on what grounds the current right- | falling-over court will justify this abomination against the | First Amendment. | n8ta wrote: | Self incrimination??? Not being able to present evidence of | your innocence is not the same as being forced to present | evidence of your guilt. | ramesh31 wrote: | I'll take "hilarious conservative bullshit that will be tossed | out in the first court case" for $500, Alex. | GoOnThenDoTell wrote: | Maybe its time to get the sunglasses with cameras in them :/ | hprotagonist wrote: | https://slate.com/technology/2018/12/right-to-record-police-... | | well, good luck. | google234123 wrote: | Nice job reading the article /s | [deleted] | SN76477 wrote: | Who watches the watchmen? | m-p-3 wrote: | A Ring doorbell. | Brian_K_White wrote: | You're allowed to record your own interaction. | | Cue the totally random inexplicable wave of phones accedentally | knocked out of hands in scuffles or confiscated for examination | or plain handcuffings. | kgwxd wrote: | Standard protocol is to assume it's a gun. | worik wrote: | > Standard protocol is to assume it's a gun. | | Let me correct that: | | Standard protocol is to "assume it's a gun". | Brian_K_White wrote: | I'm actually thinking more attept-at-deniable than that. | Like just getting into scuffles where no one can prove the | phone didn't get knocked to the ground by honest accident. | | People who are willing to do things like play copyrighted | music so that videos of them get taken down by the | copyright machine, while they are in the very act of | supposedly upholding law and order, are willing to do | literally anything. | NikolaNovak wrote: | I read title and comments and was ready to be enraged. Heck, I | WAS enraged. | | And then I clicked the link and... 8ft? That's what, just over 2 | meters? Who wants and desires to be within a NBA player's | distance of a police interaction anyway? At that point you're not | observer or recorder you're a participant. I find the title very | very very misleading. | | I believe police interactions should be recorded. I believe we | should be free to record them. I believe they should be held to | higher standard as the powers they get and their propensity to | abuse them are huge. But if you're inside 8ft it feels you're | just interfering. | | Maybe there are angles I have not considered... | codezero wrote: | This fits with dispatch also going encrypted in a lot of | districts. The less people know the better for the police. | oh_sigh wrote: | The title should not be editorialized: The actual title is | "Arizona House approves ban on close-up videotaping of police | officers" | nodesocket wrote: | Why do leftist political stories make the front page of HN | without any hint of "off-topic" flagging? I've been active on HN | since 2011 and have watched the slow but steady exodus of startup | and business stories and more and more left leaning only | political ideology overrun the community. It's nearly a complete | echo chamber. | DoctorOW wrote: | Politics stories can be relevant hacker news. Stories about | privacy, intellectual property, and other things the tech | community are interested in often intersect with politics. | knowaveragejoe wrote: | brayhite wrote: | Why is this a "leftist" issue? | | Does it matter that traditionally libertarian sources would | agree this law is bogus? https://reason.com/2022/01/21/glenn- | youngkin-qualified-immun... | Marazan wrote: | In what way is reporting on not being able to film police a | "leftist" story. | | It should be fundamentally an outrage to any libertarian right | winger. | Eddy_Viscosity2 wrote: | The solution to rampant police misconduct and law-breaking? Just | make it illegal to gather evidence of rampant police misconduct | and law-breaking. Problem solved _hand wiping motions_ | kingcharles wrote: | LOL. What would you do if you had evidence of police | misconduct? Take it to the police? Take it to the prosecutor? | Take it to a judge? | | Unless you can get it into the media you cannot get any | justice. From personal experience, even if you take hard | documentary evidence of misconduct to the police, prosecutor or | judge, each of them will laugh you out of the room. | | Who watches the watchers? | ipaddr wrote: | Even then most media will ignore, youtube will take down | worik wrote: | > Even then most media will ignore, youtube will take down | | That is not true! | | The media is a sick puppy for all sorts of reasons, YouTube | a den of evil capitalist exploitation. | | But your statement is untrue | heavyset_go wrote: | There are pro-law enforcement groups that brigade YouTube | and file bogus complaints, including DMCA violations, | against uploaded videos of police misconduct and | brutality. If they do it enough, YouTube will even ban | the uploaders and take down their videos. | jjcon wrote: | Possible Devils advocate - you can easily gather evidence while | not being within 8 feet of an officer. This could be more to do | with interfering with police activities than preventing | evidence collection. Potentially unconstitutional either way | but i imagine there are legit concerns with people/press being | that close to officers. | Brian_K_White wrote: | "you can easily gather evidence while not being within 8 | feet" | | Only a bystander can. The person who needs it the most, | can't. | | Meanwhile, the police's own body cam is on while they are | within 8 feet of you. Assuming they didn't turn it off, | assuming you get access to it later, in a timely manner, | unedited... | | There is an argument about interference and safety, but no | valid argument in the end, since there is no way to allow the | limitation without creating a tool for abuse that's worse. | | Better to let actual cases of interference be tried as such. | Make the officer have to invoke a process after the fact, and | have to defend their claim of criminal or endagering | interference in court. | jjcon wrote: | > The person who needs it the most, can't. | | This law is only about bystanders - if you're directly | involved you're still allowed to film | Brian_K_White wrote: | With what? That phone that just got knocked to the | ground? Or that phone you can't operate while you're | handcuffed or busy trying to breath gravel? | worik wrote: | Police body cam. That would be good. | | In fact, if my impression of the news is correct, police | body cams do more to protect the police from unjustified | charges of abuse than they do to protect the victims of | police abuse. | | Perhaps that is an effect of police unions? Perhaps it is | simply a good thing and we should have more of them? | | People independent of the police filming it seems like a | good idea to me. For all concerned. | Brian_K_White wrote: | If only failing to have the cam present or running were | considered a super bad crime instigating a huge | investigation with a bias towards guilt and you have to | prove innocense. | | Instead, at least in some places, cops get away with | turning their cams off or otherwise suffering mysterious | glitches and data loss. | | There used to be standards for certain things where the | appearance of imporopriety was bad enough all by itself, | exactly because some things can't really be proven, like | how you can't prove a negative. That seems to be pretty | much gone now. Judges don't recuse themselves from cases | where they have a conflict of interest, and the other | judges just let them, etc. | | So, in the sweet naive child view of the world, a cop | merely no being able to produce their body cam footage | for some incident, _no matter what they say or what the | story is_ should be almost automatic grounds for | dismissal of the whole case and maybe the cop too, or at | least a huge stink and huge investigation. But I don 't | think we live in that world we tell gradeschool kids we | live in. | vpilcx wrote: | I don't think you understand how the GOP operates now. 8ft | now, next year, they increase it. It's like what they do with | abortions. | duskwuff wrote: | > Possible Devils advocate - you can easily gather evidence | while not being within 8 feet of an officer. | | Until the officer deliberately approaches you to prevent you | from recording? | jjcon wrote: | The law specifically states you can film if the officer is | interacting with you | TeaDrunk wrote: | If a cop is actively walking towards you, do you have to stop | recording once they reach 8 feet? How can you gather evidence | if there are a dozen cops surrounding the abuse, with them | approaching anyone who is outside 8 feet to force them | further and further away? | nkrisc wrote: | They can arrest you for recording at any distance, and then | drop the charges later and likely just get away with it. It | won't matter either way because they already achieved their | goal: stop you from recording. | worik wrote: | That is a very common tactic in my experience. | | Arrest willy nilly, on court day withdraw the charges. | | You can sue for "wrongful arrest". That would be a | tactically silly idea for almost everybody who has these | sorts of encounters | jkaplowitz wrote: | Journalist: _records from 9 feet away_ | | Police: Stop recording me. | | Journalist: I'm more than 8 feet away, I have the right to | record. | | Police: You're 7 feet away. Last warning. | | Journalist: _is still 9 feet away so keeps recording_ | | Police: Arrests journalist, confiscates recording | | District attorney: _Reviews footage, sees that the journalist | was more than 8 feet away, drops charges_ | | Journalist: _sues for wrongful arrest_ | | Court: Being able to count distance accurately is not a job | requirement for a police officer. Wrongful arrest claim | denied | | Journalist: _files claim for return of recording_ | | Police department: We are unable to find this recording. (Or, | alternatively, they wipe the media before returning it.) | yalogin wrote: | You know what's going to happen. The cop sees the person | recording and walks towards him asking if they are recording | and gets inside 8 ft and arrests them. Easy! Or another cop | dashes the person recording just to stop and arrest the | recording | mwt wrote: | The text of the bill is focused on recording, not physical | interference (for which there appears to be existing laws) | | https://www.azleg.gov/legtext/55leg/2R/summary/H.HB2319_0223. | .. | Eddy_Viscosity2 wrote: | Once the police have the ability to arrest people for | videoing them, they will use it whenever they please. Then | argue after the arrest whether or not it was '8 feet' or not. | The person video-taping still gets put into custody and has | to deal with all of the consequences of that, including a not | so gentle arrest. Then, best case, if they can prove it was | outside 8 feet, they might get the charges dropped, but they | won't be able to sue or at least it be very unlikely to | succeed. The functional result (if this bill passes the | senate) is that the police in arizona can, and will, arrest | anybody they want to who video tapes them. Following that | will be similar bills in other states. | | Being arrested is a big deal and you could be in jail for | some time, even if the charges are dropped. Whereas unlawful | arrest could result in consequences for officers, this law | would give that arrest at least a pretext of being | reasonable, all they have to say is they misjudged the | distance and then are off the hook - "honest mistake". | Kye wrote: | Yep. They already yell "stop resisting!" at people who are | _clearly_ not resisting to prime the memories of witnesses. | "You're too close!" fits right into that dynamic. | nonrandomstring wrote: | > Once the police have the ability to arrest people for | videoing them, they will use it whenever they please. | | Maybe not quite. An interesting dilemma arises. If our law | abiding, peace officers arrest someone for filming - then | that media becomes the evidence in an arrest. So they may | safely arrest someone so long as they (the police) are | doing nothing wrong while the cameraman is is "illegally" | filming them. | | But then why would anyone be filming police who are doing | nothing wrong? | | As soon as the police are engaged in acts of violence, and | people start filming them, it would not be in their | interests to arrest anyone, unless they were prepared to | follow through, destroy evidence, intimidate detainees into | silence or commit perjury. | | So this idea puts the police into an interesting bind, and | suggests it would only have consequences that lead quickly | to tyrannical outcomes. | DoctorOW wrote: | > _As soon as the police are engaged in acts of violence, | and people start filming them, it would not be in their | interests to arrest anyone, unless they were prepared to | follow through, destroy evidence, intimidate detainees | into silence or commit perjury._ | | We already see this happening. IIRC Police unions are the | only people allowed to review the evidence for the first | 24 hours and are free from consequence were it to get | "lost". | hsfhdfhsdfhs wrote: | The problem is if your rights are being violated by an | officer, that officer is probably within eight feet of you. | It's bullshit that you're not permitted to record your rights | being violated. | everfree wrote: | According to the article, the ban only applies when the | officer is interacting with someone other than yourself. | Brian_K_White wrote: | The officer that just took your phone from you? Or | handcuffed you? That officer? | | Or one of the other officers standing around in any of | the other 359 degrees where your phone isn't pointing? | | There is just no way to make any of their excuses | actually hold water. | alphabettsy wrote: | Then the law isn't necessary because officers already | have lawful authority to enforce a "reasonable" safety | boundary. | [deleted] | quantified wrote: | I bet it goes through because 8 feet is close enough to get to | a cop without getting bit, and it's up to the cop saying it's | dangerous which they'll never do unless it really is. | [deleted] | Brian_K_White wrote: | Since you are allowed to film your own interaction, you just | can't be a bystander withn 8 feet, I think that just means go | ahead and film anyway, because simply by being ther, it is your | interaction also. | | If a cop is harassing someone for loitering, and you for | violating the 8ft rule, either way, you are involved in an | interaction between a cop and yourself, and so you are allowed to | film it, and so what the hell was the point of the excercise, | except to make people afraid and inhibited from protecting | themselves? | prh8 wrote: | > to make people afraid and inhibited | | Ding ding ding. Arizona resident here. This state sucks. | sixothree wrote: | If a policeman gives you an order, that sounds like an | interaction to me. If I am being forced to do something by the | police at threat of arrest, I certainly have a right to record | it. | | But I am guessing republicans will find a way to warp logic | around this. | giraffe_lady wrote: | It's so jarring to read comments like this because shows me | how wide the range of interactions with police really is. | | Do you think the police care about your rights? They've | certainly never given a shit about mine. | djbusby wrote: | I'm 40 something. Never had a good interaction with police | (Oakland, Berkeley, SF, Seattle, Portland). | | I'm sure they don't care about our rights. | TameAntelope wrote: | I've had a number of positive interactions with the | police. Many, _many_ times I 've been let off, warned, | been given advice, etc. | | I bet I could film the police and it'd be fine. | | I am, of course, a straight, white, wealthy male. So sad | that's how it goes. | Brian_K_White wrote: | I'm sure in the end the way it works is you get the fine | because the cop was not originally seeking you out, you | sought them out. | | IE, you have a right to film your interaction about violating | the 8ft rule just like you are allowed to film your | interaction about breaking a speed limit. And just like you | might actually be guilty of beeaking the speed limit, you | might actually be guilty of breaking the 8ft rule, of someone | else's interaction. | | It's not even really invalid, just somehow still pretty | convenient for one party, and it's the party that already | wields the power of the state. | krsdcbl wrote: | Thats exactly the point. It's legislation that in practice | leaves enough room to still be constitutional and | democratically viable, but can be communicated in a way that | deter people from documenting police | giraffe_lady wrote: | > what the hell was the point of the excercise, except to make | people afraid and inhibited | | Those aren't unfortunate side effects it's the entire purpose. | 34679 wrote: | >It also now allows someone who is in a car stopped by police | or is being questioned to tape the encounter *and limits the | scope of the types of police actions that trigger the law to | only those that are possibly dangerous.* | | I've read that several times, and I think they're saying you | can't record the encounter if it's not dangerous? Of course, | the police would say there was never any danger, as they're | there "to protect and serve". | schrectacular wrote: | Dangerous encounters trigger the law which prohibits filming | up close. | chaboud wrote: | So if they start beating you, you have to stop filming? | (Kidding... Kind of) | | I can't see how this could reasonably constitutionally | hold, but that rarely stops legislators. | jsnodlin wrote: | everfree wrote: | The title is editorialized to be misleading. They aren't moving | to ban video recording of police. | | The ban is on recording _from within a distance of 8 feet, while | the officer is interacting with someone else_ , which seems | reasonable enough to me. There's nothing you're going to miss by | standing 8 feet back from an investigation while you're | recording. | V__ wrote: | "Excuse me, you with the camera, can you come over here for a | second" -> arrested. | | "Excuse me, you with the camera, can you come over here for a | second".. the person moves away.. "why are you running" -> | arrested. | | Cop moves towards the person filming -> arrested. | | It's a law which will be abused. | usrusr wrote: | The person the officer is interacting with might be concerned | in a very different way about what they say to a police | officer, vs what they say to a police officer _while a random | or perhaps not random at all_ third party is recording. 8 ft | seems like a reasonable cutoff. | | But something needs to be done about the abuse potential of | another officer walking towards the recording person, repeating | "eight foot rule! eight foot rule!" to continuously push back | the recording person so that their colleagues can proceed | unwatched. | everfree wrote: | As I mentioned, the article clarifies that the law only | applies in the case that an officer is interacting with a | third party. | | A cop walking towards you is clearly interacting with you, | not a third party, thus the law would not apply. | usrusr wrote: | Thanks, missed that detail. Surprisingly well thought out | then! | garyfirestorm wrote: | The second part of your comment is the exact intention of | this law! That's exactly how it's supposed to work. | TillE wrote: | You think cops are gonna get out a tape measure before | arresting you for refusing to move back further? "8 feet" will | be like 20+ feet. | google234123 wrote: | The point of the law is to stop the people filming from tiny | distances and getting in the way. You can definitely tell 3 | feet for example. | alphabettsy wrote: | There is already a law that makes it illegal to get in the | way. | everfree wrote: | Cops unlawfully arrest people all the time for multitudes of | reasons, but we have courts to deal with those cases of | unlawful arrest. | | It should be very clear from an officer's body cam whether | the recording party is within 8 feet. That's a basic personal | space amount of distance. | TeaDrunk wrote: | What if the body cam happened to be off, glitchy, or data | was just lost on happenstance? What if even if the arrest | was unlawful the victim already lost their job? | everfree wrote: | If a body cam happened to be off, then it doesn't matter | whether a law like this is in effect or not. | jyounker wrote: | It does affect you if the police can force you turn off | your camera, or if they can later claim in court that | video evidence of their transgressions were illegally | obtained, and thus inadmissible. | jyounker wrote: | And cops get away with harassing people all the time. The | US courts have been doing an abysmal job of protecting the | citizenry from police abuse. (E.g. qualified immunity.) | | The thing that has been to some extent reversing that trend | is cheap and ubiquitous video cameras. | tormock wrote: | The problem with that is that they get 12 cops to body-block | any cameras 8ft away or more... sometimes you have to be close | to get a good angle. | mymythisisthis wrote: | I think you're right. Usually a dozen cops respond to most | major calls. Now anybody trying to record, within a block of | the action, will be arrested and have their camera seized. | everfree wrote: | While these people may be arrested and their cameras may be | seized, they could easily sue for unlawful arrest if they | were more than 8 feet away at the time. Exactly the same as | if their cameras were seized before the 8-foot law were in | effect. | jyounker wrote: | I forsee many seized cameras being "accidentally damaged" | in Arizona's near future. | everfree wrote: | If police unlawfully seize and destroy your recorded | evidence, then it doesn't matter whether there was a law | like this in effect. The officer could make up any story | to justify their action under any law. | | Mandatory body cam laws would be a lot more relevant in | that case, not 8-foot citizen recording laws. | jyounker wrote: | It gives them legal cover for seizing cameras. Right now | there is no legal justification for doing so. | tormock wrote: | They can also just block the view so that the camera is | useless... | everfree wrote: | Your comment, like many others in this thread, seems to be of | the form "what if the police do this other, unrelated, | illegal thing?" | | The solution is to make sure there are repercussions for cops | doing illegal things, not to prevent laws from being passed | because cops might try to twist the intention of the law to | try to justify illegal acts. | | Courts have a lot of discretion in deciding cases, and many | cases come down to a question of intent. If 12 cops | intentionally body-block someone who is recording, that's | something that a judge isn't likely to look at too fondly. | alphabettsy wrote: | > If 12 cops intentionally body-block someone who is | recording, that's something that a judge isn't likely to | look at too fondly. | | That's all fine and well, but when they can just take your | device then you no longer have a video of whatever you were | attempting to record. Things used in a "crime" are subject | to seizure. | scarface74 wrote: | So who is going to stop cops from doing illegal things - | other cops? The judicial system that is also on the side of | the cops? | everfree wrote: | I can't design a new society in the comments section. The | question of how to reform the policing system to make | cops more accountable for unlawful actions isn't really | in the scope of this article. | hellotomyrars wrote: | The question of how is beyond the scope but the | implications of this specific legislation sure is. It is | incredibly open to abuse and arguably because of existing | legislation already surrounding interfering with police | entirely unnecessary outside of its very obvious abuse | potential. | | Police should be subject to more scrutiny and not less. | This specifically makes it easier for them to evade | scrutiny. I struggle to see any good faith argument that | leads to less accountability or evidence in general. It's | almost comedic in a "What are you afraid of if you have | nothing to hide" sense that is often applied in the other | direction of police having authority beyond what is | reasonable. | jyounker wrote: | If you think US police won't abuse the law to evade | accountability then I think you haven't been paying | attention. | everfree wrote: | US police abuse the law to evade accountability all the | time, but I don't see how that's relevant to this | particular law. | jyounker wrote: | This law gives the police one more tool to evade | accountability. | | People filming cops isn't a problem. It doesn't need to | be regulated. | asteroidp wrote: | SubiculumCode wrote: ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-03-19 23:00 UTC)