[HN Gopher] Crows know what they know and can ponder the content... ___________________________________________________________________ Crows know what they know and can ponder the content of their own minds Author : SubiculumCode Score : 284 points Date : 2022-03-24 16:23 UTC (6 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.statnews.com) (TXT) w3m dump (www.statnews.com) | krono wrote: | Not a crow, but I have a parot companion. If you're still scared | of printers someday taking over, you should really stay away from | birbs. | _dain_ wrote: | >To test whether crows know and can analyze the contents of their | brains, neurobiologist Andreas Nieder of the University of | Tubingen in Germany trained two birds to peck a red or a blue | target on a panel, depending whether they saw a faint light. | Nieder kept varying the "rule," with the birds told which color | meant what -- red = saw it, or blue = saw it -- only after the | flash. That required the crows, Glenn and Ozzy, to keep | monitoring their brains; they had a second or two to figure out | what they had seen and tell Nieder by choosing the corresponding | target. | | ... I don't actually understand what this means. Am I dumb or is | this just badly written? Can someone explain? What is Nieder | actually doing here, and how does it test whether the crows are | introspecting? How are they "told" which color meant what? | netsharc wrote: | It's strangely summarized, but the full text (linked from | https://www.researchgate.net/publication/344393003_A_neural_... | ) has more details. | | If there was a faint light, and the red target appears, the | birds were taught (how?) to peck it. If there was light and a | blue target appears, don't peck it. If there was no light, and | the blue target appears, peck it, and if the target is red, | don't peck it. | | So peck a red target = "I saw a light", peck a blue target = "I | didn't see a light". If the opposite color target appears to | what you need to peck, don't peck it. | | Or: Target is red, did I see a light? If yes, peck it. Target | is blue. Was there a light? If there wasn't, peck it. | | I didn't continue reading the paper, but I guess the | researchers concluded since they crows could answer the "Did I | see a light?" question correctly most (i.e. statistically | significant amount) of the times, it shows they can ponder the | contents of their brains. | _dain_ wrote: | So how does this mean they can "ponder the contents of their | own brains"? I'm pretty sure you could train even a very | stupid creature to perform this task. | Ajedi32 wrote: | Isn't that effectively just a simple short term memory test? | How does that tell us anything about whether crows can | "ponder the contents of their minds"? | ShamelessC wrote: | I don't know but I'm utterly amazed at the sheer number of | anecdata comments here all completely ignoring the title's | premise which is worded in a way that makes you think "what | did you do, simulate a bird brain from scratch?" | | So, thanks for being the only sane comment. | silasdavis wrote: | I don't follow the experimental conclusion here. It seems like a | demonstration of memory. What am I missing? | nickelpro wrote: | Concur. Jumping from "a collection of sensory neurons remained | active after a sensory experience" to "Crows have subjective | experience and 'ponder' the contents of their own minds" is an | editorial leap. The latter likely isn't even provable in a | scientific way. | | If I said a fly wheel keeps spinning after being in contact | with an outside force, you would never characterize it as "fly | wheel acts of its own accord following demonstration". | lacker wrote: | There is often a lot of cawing in my backyard when I refill the | bird feeder, or when the neighborhood cat comes by. Clearly the | crows are communicating useful information in their social group. | Too bad I can't speak crow and I don't know how much detail there | is in crow language. | costcofries wrote: | But do they know that they don't know! | RajT88 wrote: | The wild thing about this article is less the article content, | and more the realization that I know adult humans less self aware | than what is described in corvids. | [deleted] | edgyquant wrote: | I really hate this mind set. Every single human being that ever | lived is a ridiculously intelligent entity. It isn't funny or | cute to pretend otherwise and just because some people dedicate | that intelligence to things you or I don't agree with, or just | because they don't care about the same things as us, doesn't | make them less self aware than any other person. | Jach wrote: | I've gone back and forth on my feelings for the mindset. My | current feelings just encompass the differences so it's not | really a like or hate anymore either way. Yes, the human | species is very intelligent and in a uniquely general way on | this planet, the difference between a village idiot and | Einstein is quite small compared to the difference between a | village idiot and any member of any other species. Scenarios | like Idiocracy are just laughably implausible because while | evolution can sometimes work fast for little changes which | can make a difference against big selection pressures, it's | generally very slow (we have math to say how slow!), and it | seems plausible that what makes us uniquely generally | intelligent took evolution a long time to produce, has many | interdependent and complicated things, and would take | evolution a long time to unmake. I suspect we as a species | would sooner go extinct for one reason or another before we | suffered enough mutations that reached fixation and caused a | notable decline in our capability of general intelligence. | | On the other hand, small scale situations similar to what's | depicted in fun-fiction like Idiocracy or other things keep | happening, and the idea that reality is stranger and crazier | than fiction holds true. I've joked that the 2020s are going | to be the dumbest decade, and will require the dumbest | people. Holding up well so far. Furthermore, even if we | acknowledge that humans are intelligent, period, there is | still great variation within humans. There is variation on | every trait we can measure, self-awareness should be no | different, the presumption that no one is more or less self | aware than any other person defies reason. Apart from that, | just observing people's behavior in a casual way I think it | obvious that people vary quite a bit when it comes to self- | awareness, both in general every day lives (which I can | notice varies in myself) or in specific focused tests. It | doesn't get better when you switch from casual observation | and conversation to more detailed study, psychology and | psychotherapy are full of strange and fascinating data (and | not just of fundamentally damaged brains) which I think a | model that assumes equal capacities in self-awareness would | be hard-pressed to explain. | clankyclanker wrote: | > ridiculously intelligent entity | | Intelligence is a far-cry from self-awareness. I once knew | someone who would regularly (daily, for years), in | conversation, cut other people off like they weren't even | there to completely change the subject to their own | preference. I once called them out on it and tried to finish | my original point to the rest of the table. They yelled at me | and demanded an apology that I would dare cut them off like | that, that I would dare try to finish my own point. | | I have several similar stories, but the rest are far too | specific for the open internet. | | Some people just pay themselves no mind. | kwhitefoot wrote: | Read some of Peter Watts SF to see that there can be a | distinction between self awareness, consciousness, and | intelligence. | snek_case wrote: | Disagree. Some people are less self-aware than others. It's | not a matter of opinions or what you believe in, it's a | matter of how much you are aware of your own cognition. | | There are many people out there who seem to lack the ability | to analyze the consequences of their behavior, or to admit | that they were ever wrong. There are also people who seem to | be very bad at understanding what are their motivations for | doing certain things. Not being able to look back at your own | behavior and your own mistakes makes it nearly impossible for | these people to grow. | | I won't get into the argument as to whether these differences | in self-awareness are biological in origin or due to nurture. | It's probably some of both. Either way, even though this | metric is multidimensional and hard to quantify, some people | are definitely less self-aware than others. Just like some | people are less physically fit than others. | edgyquant wrote: | You seem to think these people stupid instead of stubborn | humans who don't care about what your definition of "self | aware" is. I'm sure these people think your way of thinking | is odd as well. | snek_case wrote: | I think it's similar to short term reward vs delayed | gratification (see the marshmallow experiment[0]). By | refusing to admit you've ever made mistakes, you can | protect your ego in the short term. However, you're also | alienating people and preventing learning from taking | place. That has a long-term cost in terms of missed or | lost opportunities. | | [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_marshmallow_ex | perimen... | ifyoubuildit wrote: | How do you distinguish between the case where these people | are actually less self aware vs being roughly just as self | aware but having different values from your own? In other | words, they are aware of much of what everyone around them | is aware, they just act on it differently? | | In any case, the vast majority of healthy humans are | probably more self aware than the vast majority of healthy | crows, no? | jotm wrote: | It is entirely possible to simply ignore that intelligence. | And why wouldn't you, if you're safe and fed? Being stupid is | easier - very much in line with evolution, too. | | It's hard not to notice that many people are... dumb, but | content or happy. They don't second guess, they don't fret, | they don't think much. | | I really wish I could be like that. | edgyquant wrote: | Ignoring that intelligence when you don't need it is | actually a very intelligent decision imo. That makes these | folks smarter than I am. | Jach wrote: | Why wouldn't you? Smarter people are generally happier than | others too when the question is researched. | | I suppose it's possible to mistake low neuroticism for | stupidity. And if you don't talk to dumb people (pick an IQ | range below 100) very often you might not know their | worries and concerns, especially if they're not overt about | them as is fashionable for Lisa Simpson-esque individuals. | | Still bad news on adjusting your base intelligence (apart | from drastically down through damage), I don't know about | adjusting self-awareness though I suspect it's a bit more | mutable in good and bad ways, but at least your desire to | feel happier or more content more often is a possible state | for you to achieve if you work at it. Some people will | recommend therapy (surprised nobody has internet-diagnosed | you with depression already), or meditation, or drugs | (prescription or party), or whatever (I like the idea and | research of gratitude journals | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratitude_journal but don't | keep one), I don't want to recommend anything, just point | out that personality and outlook is more mutable than | something like base intelligence, which is good news for | your melancholy should you wish to attempt change. | z3c0 wrote: | You're not alone in this. I find it a very tired, unoriginal | perspective to keep asserting how dumb other people are. At | the end of the day, the simplest human brains are still a | marvel of science and computational complexity. The fact that | it so often gets used for "dumb" things only impresses me | more. | | Unfortunately, a lot of people boost their worth by degrading | others, so to give that credit to those that they look down | on would cause them a certain degree of cognitive dissonance. | elliekelly wrote: | This comment is a bit ironic. Particularly your last | sentence. | z3c0 wrote: | Only if you assume that I look down on those I'm speaking | of. I don't. It's an entirely human thing to do, and | something most people will find themselves doing at some | point. | geocrasher wrote: | I first read this as "Cows" and was reminded of "Cow Tools" | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cow_Tools | Melatonic wrote: | If you want to befriend your local crows try buying a crow call - | they will all look at you funny but you definitely get their | attention. Supposedly they also like many types of nuts | bmitc wrote: | It continues to surprise me that humans are surprised at other | animals having deep intelligence and emotions and thoughts. As if | the fact that animals don't speak English or whatever else human | language is somehow a negative reflection upon them. | jodrellblank wrote: | "As if they are inferior because they don't speak English" is a | pretty cheap shot; cows eat grass, what reason do they have for | deep intelligence and thoughts, why would you expect a-priori | that they must have such? It's sometimes suggested that human | intelligence rose quite quickly from trying to outwit other | humans; do cows try to outwit each other and slaughter other | cow tribes to take control of their fields? | | Another point is, other animals do dumb things - like videos of | ducks walking over drains and the ducklings fall down the | drain, or creature stuck in plastic sheet until it dies. Or | creature does nothing while humans approach, kill, and eat it. | It's hard to see examples like that and think "deep | intelligence". | | Emotions, yes - a lot of fear, pain, excitement, skittishness, | visible in a lot of animal behviours. But examples of planning | ahead, cooperation, tool using, they're so rare they make | headlines like this article when observed. | [deleted] | TallonRain wrote: | Same here. As someone who has spent his life around many | animals, either as pets or in the wild or other contexts, it's | very plain that humans are surrounded by respectably sentient | creatures. It always floors me whenever people are shocked at | the complex thoughts, emotions, behavior and planning | capabilities of non-human animals. It really just seems | fundamentally obvious if you bother to interact with other | creatures long enough. Heck, I've run into way too many people | who refuse to even acknowledge that we humans are animals as | well and I feel this innate arrogance persists to our | detriment. | omegaworks wrote: | It really shouldn't surprise you given the amount of humans | that treat _other humans_ like they lack deep intelligence, | emotions and thoughts if they don 't speak English. | tigen wrote: | Well, 1 out of 2 people has below-average intelligence. And the | comments you see online vastly amplify the opinions of a small | few. | | Heck, not long ago you'd find a lot of humans saying this about | other humans. | paskozdilar wrote: | Agreed. Animals have their own understanding of the world, | sometimes a lot more perceptive than ours. | kyaghmour wrote: | When I was younger, I read many books by Henri Laborit | (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Laborit) -- his work is | predominantly in French. As a surgeon and neurobiologist, he | wrote a lot about the biology of behaviour. I can't find the | interview anymore, but during an interview (also in French) | with a Canadian journalist he quipped this: "L'homme est un | animal, le probleme c'est qu'il parle." (roughly: "Man is an | animal, the problem is that he uses language.") And, so, I | agree with the essence of your position. But maybe the problem | isn't that humans are surprised that other animals | feeling/thinking. Rather the problem might be that humans think | they actually aren't animals to begin with. | lamontcg wrote: | I had a crow that was on my back porch last year trying to tell | me something, but I don't think I was clever enough to know what | it was trying to say. | | I could walk out on the porch and get within a foot or two of it | without it flying away. | | I hadn't been feeding them or anything. | | I put out some water and ran the garden hose a bit and put out a | bit of bread thinking that food or water was probably what it was | looking for (it was during some very hot days in Seattle). It | didn't really act all that interested in what I did though. | fleddr wrote: | Here in the Netherlands there was the case of two corvids trying | to harass a small owl so that they could use its nesting hole. | | This in itself shows team work. They failed to get rid of the owl | in time before the breeding season. | | Next season they tried again. This time, together they stuffed | the nest hole with so much stuff that the owl couldn't get in | anymore. The owl would try to clear it but soon gave up as it was | two working against one. With the owl permanently gone, they | cleared the hole and seized it. | | Isn't that stunning? This demonstrates memory as the previously | failing tactic was not repeated. The idea of stuffing a nest | surely isn't intuition or a skill learned from parents, it's a | spontaneously formed idea for a highly specific problem. | | They also have very complex social behavior where males exchange | favors. Every bird knows of every other bird they commonly | interact with whether they are owed or in debt. So that means | they have a currency. | | We should lose our arrogance and look at wildlife with new eyes | and with new respect. And not just for wildlife superstars like | crows or dolphins, do it across the board. Case in point, | earthworms drag leaves into their underground lair and feed on | them. When you give it the wrong type of leaf, it will reject it. | When you give it the right type of leaf, yet wrongly oriented, it | will turn it around. We're talking about a creature with a | handful of neurons, figuratively speaking. It's one of the most | stupid life forms and it can do that. | ComputerCat wrote: | Wow, that's fascinating research! I've always found crows so | majestic, perhaps it's because they were pondering. | khaledh wrote: | I know this isn't scientific, but for those who may entertain the | idea of a Creator, there's a mention of crow behaviour in the | Quran, where it describes the story of Abel and Cain (sons of | Adam and Eve), and how after Cain killed his brother, God sent a | crow to teach him about burial: "Then Allah | sent a crow searching in the ground to show him how to hide the | disgrace of his brother. He said, "O woe to me! Have I failed to | be like this crow and hide the body of my brother?" And he became | of the regretful." (5:31) | 2000UltraDeluxe wrote: | European magpies have been documented to hold wakes for fallen | flock members. It's not impossible crows have similar bit | undocumented ceremonies. They definitely have a rudimentary | culture. | drcongo wrote: | Magpies are usually bastards, however, about a year ago a cat | got run over in the street near my house and the only reason | anyone knew to go to its aid was because a group of magpies | stood around it in a circle shouting until someone came. | Obviously I could be anthropomorphising this in the nicest | possible way, the alternative is that they were taunting it | Nelson Muntz style. | openfuture wrote: | I once heard a theory that the story of cain and abel is about | the agriculturalists killing the nomadic people by taking their | lands ("killing their brother") idk how you'd think of the crow | part in that interpretation but something to think about. | Overtonwindow wrote: | To test whether crows know and can analyze the contents of their | brains...trained two birds to peck a red or a blue target on a | panel, depending whether they saw a faint light." | | "[Researcher] Nieder kept varying the "rule," with the birds told | which color meant what -- red = saw it, or blue = saw it -- only | after the flash. That required the crows, Glenn and Ozzy, to keep | monitoring their brains; they had a second or two to figure out | what they had seen and tell Nieder by choosing the corresponding | target. | | While the crows were solving these tasks, the researchers were | tracking the activity of hundreds of their neurons. (Crows' | brains have 1.5 billion neurons, as many as some monkey species.) | | "When the crows reported having seen a faint light, sensory | neurons were active between the flash and the birds pecking the | color that meant, yes, I saw that. If the crows did not perceive | the very same faint stimulus, the nerve cells remained silent, | and the bird pecked, no, I didn't see anything. Ozzy and Glenn's | brain activity systematically changed depending on whether or not | they had perceived the dim flash. | | "During the delay, many neurons responded according to the crows' | impending report, rather than to the brightness of the light... | The birds were aware of what they subjectively perceived, flash | or no flash, correctly reporting what their sensory neurons | recorded..." | whatrocks wrote: | This is only inspirationally relevant, but a few weeks ago, I saw | a crow (or a raven, never quite sure) holding a stick, floating | without moving, on top of Twin Peaks in SF, like it was waiting | to give a wand to a wizard. When I got home, I wrote this weird | little story about it: | https://f52.charlieharrington.com/stories/a-great-unkindness... | TaylorAlexander wrote: | Hey that was fun! I was pleasantly surprised to see the audio | option as I'm too sleepy to read right now. | | Reminds me of a short story I wrote which is a transcription of | a vivid dream I had: http://www.tlalexander.com/spooks/ | whatrocks wrote: | Great story! I love the image of the huge airships looming | over the city. A lot of my stories in my "Fahrenheit 52" | project have been extended versions of dreams. Whenever I | have a particularly weird one, I try to tap it out quickly on | my phone, even if it's the middle of the night. | zehauser wrote: | Very weird! I love it. Although I worry I won't be able to look | at Karl the Fog without a little bit of suspicion, now. :) | DiggyJohnson wrote: | Thanks for sharing. I love that you chose to publish this, for | little external reason, I imagine. And just one week later, | here we are: good stuff. | whatrocks wrote: | Thank you! I'm doing it as a little writing project for the | year, one short story every week, just to get better at | writing, and also to expunge all these probably dumb story | ideas from my head (with the hope that there's now room for | better ones). | jbattle wrote: | In the 'Once and Future King', the boy who will be King Arthur | looses an arrow into the air, just for the joy of it. A crow | comes out of nowhere and grabs the arrow. Art's foster brother | believes the crow was actually a witch (Morgan le Fay?). | | I'm just saying - keep an eye out for witches ;) | "Just as [the arrow] had spent its force, just as its ambition | had been dimmed by destiny and it was preparing to faint, to | turn over, to pour back into the bosom of its mother earth, a | portent happened. A gore-crow came flapping wearily before the | approaching night. It came, it did not waver, it took the | arrow. It flew away, heavy and hoisting, with the arrow in its | beak." | whatrocks wrote: | I love this book so much, thanks for reminding me of this | part! One of my favorite quotes ever comes from Merlin in | this book: | | > The best thing for being sad is to learn something. That's | the only thing that never fails. You may grow old and | trembling in your anatomies, you may lie awake at night | listening to the disorder of your veins, you may miss your | only love, you may see the world about you devastated by evil | lunatics, or know your honour trampled in the sewers of baser | minds. There is only one thing for it then -- to learn. Learn | why the world wags and what wags it. That is the only thing | which the mind can never exhaust, never alienate, never be | tortured by, never fear or distrust, and never dream of | regretting. Learning is the only thing for you. Look what a | lot of things there are to learn. | ffreire wrote: | > I saw a crow (or a raven, never quite sure) | | Assuming you mean it's difficult to tell the difference, as | opposed to just in this case: | | Telling them apart is fairly straightforward! Crows are | smaller, have a flatter tail, and typically flap quite a bit | during flight. Ravens, by comparison, are much larger in size, | have a diamond-shaped tail that moves quite a bit during | flight, and typically glide during flight. | | Love the whole family of corvids :D as well as your story! | whimsicalism wrote: | I used to feel like I could always tell them apart, but the | crows (I think?) in SF are very large | lacker wrote: | I think the Northern California crows are larger than their | east coast counterparts, so I agree, it is harder to tell | them apart by size here. Ravens are larger still, though. | If you see one in San Francisco, it's probably a crow. | Occasionally you get a raven in Oakland but those are | usually crows as well. If you get out to Mount Diablo | you'll see both crows and ravens out there. | BugsJustFindMe wrote: | > _Telling them apart is fairly straightforward!_ | | I would like to point out that your description of how | straightforward it is to tell them apart very humorously | belies how it is not at all straightforward because all of | your proposed evaluations are implicitly relative to | something not seen. | | > _Crows are smaller, have a flatter tail, and typically... | Ravens, by comparison..._ | | If you see one bird, is that bird smaller or larger? Is its | tail more flat or less? Smaller than what? Flatter than what? | Flappier than what? Without seeing both, a lay individual | can't easily evaluate "by comparison". | hetspookjee wrote: | If you think woah that is one huge crow, than it's probably | a raven I find the easiest tell. Also the sound is a bit | off and on the higher end I believe. And also their beak is | more curved but that's often hard to spot and not too | reliable | BugsJustFindMe wrote: | You're doing it too. "bigger", "more curved", "higher | sound". All of those are comparative. None of them help | you know a raven or a crow except in relation to some | idealized specimen of the other, which one likely doesn't | have in front of them. | yakak wrote: | I can tell the crows and ravens apart in my region but I have | to wonder how relativistic comparisons are. From what I've | seen of hooded crows, I would be more inclined to categorize | them as ravens, but there are probably larger ravens in their | regions. | Broken_Hippo wrote: | I live in an area with hooded crows and ravens. The ravens | are a bit larger, but they aren't massively larger. | | On the other hand, as long as there is enough light, you | can always tell them apart because the hooded crows have a | lot of grey so long as they are fully grown (young hooded | crows are darker than adults) | 8bitsrule wrote: | I grew up in a forestland environment. Most of the adult | ravens I saw along the roadside out-of-town (usually not | bothered by cars driving by) were about the size of a | chicken. Crows, as a rule ... were a lot smaller. | thinkingemote wrote: | "if you think its a raven, its a crow, and if you think its a | crow its a raven" so goes the classic quote. | | one recent quote i heard on the bus: "ravens are near humans, | crows are in the country" | bbarnett wrote: | Absolutely the opposite, loads of crows in the city, few | ravens if any. | | Above holds true in Western US and Eastern Canada at least. | Broken_Hippo wrote: | In my area, I see crows all the time, sitting on power | lines and messing with posters on the street and so on. | These are hooded crows and easy to distinguish from ravens. | I see ravens as well, but not quite as often - though one | of my local grocery stores has a small flock (murder!) of | ravens that likes to forage in the parking lot. And to be | fair, I live in a decently sized city of around 180,000. | irrational wrote: | > Ravens, by comparison, are much larger in size | | The problem is, they are rarely sitting next to each other so | I can tell which one is larger. | lacker wrote: | Personally, when I see crows or ravens flying I often can't | see their tail and I often can't quite tell how large they | are. I find it easier to distinguish their call, a crow | sounds like "caw" and a raven sounds like "gronk". | dontbeevil1992 wrote: | very cool! some similar themes to LotR. Did you intentionally | make the crows names use mainly phonemes from the word "crow"? | That's a cool technique | whatrocks wrote: | > Did you intentionally make the crows names use mainly | phonemes from the word "crow"? That's a cool technique | | Not consciously! But they sounded crow-like to me. Like they | could be onomatopeias for words that crows could | theoretically speak/croak to each other. | lifeisstillgood wrote: | Humans have achieved not just intelligence but co-operation. | | we are "herd" enough that the benefits of learning from others | overcomes the need to be smart enough to work it out yourself. | | But individualistic enough that we won't follow the herd all the | time (we might want to improve that given the success of religion | and dictators). | | But what I am trying to say is that intelligence is a necessary | but not sufficbet condition. We also need ... politics ... for | want of a better word. | | Our brains seem to be wired as levels of co-operating systems | coming to collective decisions - and that is a pretty good way to | describe politics and society. | | Human species is less a collection of organisms feeding and dying | and more a distributed brain, trying to wake up. | | Now that each node has a pocket sized way to communicate with | each other node, I wonder what the conditions for consciousness | really are? | [deleted] | winnit wrote: | Have you read Swarm by Norman Spinrad? It's a short-story which | illustrates some of the points you have made by bringing an | alien species that are less individually intelligent but more | hive-oriented than human beings into the mix. | waqf wrote: | Also "Web" by John Wyndham. | bar_de wrote: | Also the book "The Invincible" by Stanislaw Lem tells a story | about distributed intelligent lifeforms. Really nice as they | are described in a very unique un-anthropocentric way, i.e. | their rationality is hardly understandable by the space | faring humans encountering them. | rmnull wrote: | i can't seem to find the book by that title by that author. I | did find a book by that title but its 800 something pages | long and don't think its the title you referred to. do you | mind providing a link? | StingyJelly wrote: | I've red a short story that matches the description and the | name. Took a while to remember but it was in A Science | Fiction Omnibus [0], apparently it's by Bruce Sterling so | could be a different story. | | <https://openlibrary.org/works/OL15192261W/A_Science_Fictio | n_...> | Animats wrote: | Crows have been seen using traffic to crack nuts. Including using | a crosswalk to get a chance to retrieve the cracked nuts.[1] | | [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGPGknpq3e0 | klenwell wrote: | A favorite crow story from r/legaladvice: | | _[oregon] I accidentally created an army of crow body guards. | Am I liable if my murder attempts murder? UPDATE: The crows | saved a life_ | | https://old.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/lobhtj/oregon_... | | I also read a comment online somewhere (maybe here?) recently | where someone talked about a crow they met years ago while in | college at the local Taco Bell who would exchange nickels for | tacos. I believe they said that crow would even croak "TACO" | when it presented the nickel. | | Now I wish I would have bookmarked that one. | | [UPDATE] I tracked down the Taco Bell story: | | https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/572ajt/whats_the... | | This comment is 5 years old so I think I read a copypasta | version of this. Or maybe author reposted it somewhere more | recently. Anyway, great story. | e40 wrote: | I've been feeding the crows around my house since near the | beginning of the pandemic. Since we were home we started | noticing them. In fact, there are several bird types. Blue | Jays and others I don't even know the type. | | Unfortunately, our neighbors got angry because the crows | would wait for feeding times and sit on the power lines and | ... crap on their cars. And the squirrels grab the peanuts | and hide them and once I was coming back from a walk and the | neighbor walked up to me and said "hold out your hand" and | then dropped a peanut shell in my hand. Really frustrating, | because it's not like there are a lot of them. Usually they | fly away with them and leave them elsewhere. | | Two stories related to this: | | 1. I was talking with a neighbor for a good while. We were | talking and heard a sound like metal dropping near me. I said | "did you hear that, too?" ... I looked around and there was a | bottle cap a few feet away and a crow above it on the power | line. They were impatient and wanted their peanuts. | | 2. I was walking a few blocks away from my house and an empty | peanut shell dropped right in front of me. Looked up and a | crow on the power line. | | Right now a couple of crows are building a next. One of them | looks much bigger than normal and seems to fly slowly. | Crowlets incoming?? | sph wrote: | There's also the 4chan classic of a guy starting a turf war | between crows: https://www.reddit.com/r/greentext/comments/5m | i9nu/anon_star... | amelius wrote: | Did he tag the crows? Otherwise, how was he sure that some | of the tree crows didn't convert to grass grows? | robbedpeter wrote: | Or sledding, using discarded plastic lids, for the sheer fun. | I've seen young raven fledglings flinging pinecones at | eachother, and there's a sense of play and joy in what they do. | | Good for them, the more conscious creatures we share the | universe with, the better. Well, the planet, anyway. While | we're nominally in charge. If we can avoid screwing everything | up too badly. | | Actually, hell, can the ravens take over? We seem to be bodging | things up just a bit. | bee_rider wrote: | I've seen the sledding crow clip. It is funny to think about. | For a human, part of the fun of sledding is the sort of | controlled falling/almost flight-like experience. I guess | that's old hat for a crow, so I guess they must see it from | the other side somehow. | hunterb123 wrote: | Walking is controlled falling | reducesuffering wrote: | Whereas the nut cracking is cool for the intelligence shown | towards survival, the one that truly astounds me is | intelligence for the sake of having fun. Crow skiing: | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WupH8oyrAo | Razengan wrote: | > _the one that truly astounds me is intelligence for the | sake of having fun. Crow skiing_ | | Don't worry human chauvinism will find a "practical" reason | to break that down to too. | cpeterso wrote: | Similarly, I was impressed/frightened to learn that some hawks | in Australia purposely start wildfires to flush out prey (by | taking burning sticks from one wildfire to start others). | | https://wildlife.org/australian-firehawks-use-fire-to-catch-... | NoGravitas wrote: | Now I feel bad for crows. They're in the same MALIGNANTLY USELESS | boat as humans. | | > "For the rest of the earth's organisms, existence is relatively | uncomplicated. Their lives are about three things: survival, | reproduction, death--and nothing else. But we know too much to | content ourselves with surviving, reproducing, dying--and nothing | else. We know we are alive and know we will die. We also know we | will suffer during our lives before suffering--slowly or quickly | --as we draw near to death. This is the knowledge we "enjoy" as | the most intelligent organisms to gush from the womb of nature. | And being so, we feel shortchanged if there is nothing else for | us than to survive, reproduce, and die. We want there to be more | to it than that, or to think there is. This is the tragedy: | Consciousness has forced us into the paradoxical position of | striving to be unself-conscious of what we are--hunks of spoiling | flesh on disintegrating bones." - Thomas Ligotti | FredPret wrote: | That Ligotti chap really managed to put the darkest possible | spin on the greatest possible miracle - consciousness. | | Our brains represent a step change in the timeline of | complexity in the universe, from subatomic things spontaneously | coalescing into atoms, all the way up to Thomas the paranoid | android. | | Instead of being depressed that we will get hurt and die, let's | be happy that we will be able to experience many interesting | and wonderful things, many of which can be quite pleasant and | meaningful. | gpderetta wrote: | > That Ligotti chap really managed to put the darkest | possible spin on the greatest possible miracle - | consciousness | | I think that Blindsight and its author Peter Watts have a | stronger claim :) | asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: | In the counterfactual universe where we had strong evidence | of higher cognition sans consciousness, sure. But it's pure | speculation that anything like his space critters can exist | in real life. Perhaps so, perhaps not. Fortunately, we will | never know. | NoGravitas wrote: | "One cringes to hear scientists cooing over the universe or | any part thereof like schoolgirls over-heated by their first | crush. From the studies of Krafft-Ebbing onward, we know that | it is possible to become excited about anything--from shins | to shoehorns. But it would be nice if just one of these | gushing eggheads would step back and, as a concession to | objectivity, speak the truth: THERE IS NOTHING INNATELY | IMPRESSIVE ABOUT THE UNIVERSE OR ANYTHING IN IT." -- Thomas | Ligotti, The Conspiracy Against the Human Race | jvanderbot wrote: | "Thomas Ligotti is a contemporary American horror writer. | His writings are rooted in several literary genres - most | prominently weird fiction - and have been described by | critics as works of philosophical horror, often formed into | short stories and novellas in the tradition of gothic | fiction" | | The guy makes a living spouting this kind of depressing | prose. So, he's good at it. I bet he might enjoy it, | sometimes, too. Maybe the recognition, a little? So, | perhaps he's a counter example to his own dour outlook. | morelisp wrote: | He's famously reclusive (and not even in an interesting | way) and hates being known for his writing. | Loughla wrote: | >hates being known for his writing. | | Not to sound too cynical, but if he hates being known for | his writing, why does he write and publish? Why have a | website about his works? | | That's very strange to me. I could understand hating | being famous. But hating being known for the thing you're | literally putting into the world so that people know | about it? | morelisp wrote: | I don't think has a website. | | > It is important to note that while all copyright- | related content is presented with the permission of | Thomas Ligotti, TLO was created upon the solitary actions | of Jon Padgett and continues to exist independent of the | direction or promotion of Thomas Ligotti. | | I think it's normal for someone to feel the need to write | and publish without wanting recognition. His publishing | schedule is erratic and also dropped precipitously as he | got well-known. | nwiswell wrote: | Well he's already conceded that there's nothing | impressive about his writing. | bee_rider wrote: | Lots of people hate their jobs. | | In the case of being a writer, having some sort of PR | output (like a website) is part of managing your brand or | whatever I guess. Of course it isn't mandatory, but I bet | people have done things they hated more for money. | bdowling wrote: | > NOTHING INNATELY IMPRESSIVE | | An asteroid impacting the Earth will surely make an | impression on its surface. Therefore, there ARE innately | impressive things in the universe. | [deleted] | pmoriarty wrote: | Saying that nothing impresses Thomas Ligotti is not the | same as saying that nothing impresses anyone. | FredPret wrote: | That guy was edgy | fourthark wrote: | Isn't that just saying that impressiveness is not | objective? | omnicognate wrote: | "Objectivity", "INNATELY IMPRESSIVE". | | "Impressiveness" is about the most _sub_ jective thing I | can think of. It's literally about whether it impresses | someone. | | I've never heard of this Ligotti chap, but these quotes are | not selling me on him. | throwanem wrote: | Ligotti's body of work constitutes perhaps the longest | suicide note, and perhaps also the one most "writerly" in | its composition, thus far in human history. That the act | has yet to be consummated detracts little from this | accomplishment, but one may to no less use or benefit | spend time perusing road accident footage. | groby_b wrote: | I'd argue that the things he despises so much are the | exact same things that prevent consummation, so at a | fundamental level, I doubt the soundness of his | reasoning. | morelisp wrote: | _It would be a sign of callowness to bemoan the fact that | pessimistic writers do not rate and may be reprehended in | both good conscience and good company. Some critics of | the pessimist often think they have his back to the wall | when they blithely jeer, "If that is how this fellow | feels, he should either kill himself or be decried as a | hypocrite." That the pessimist should kill himself in | order to live up to his ideas may be counterattacked as | betraying such a crass intellect that it does not deserve | a response. Yet it is not much of a chore to produce one. | Simply because someone has reached the conclusion that | the amount of suffering in this world is enough that | anyone would be better off never having been born does | not mean that by force of logic or sincerity he must kill | himself. It only means he has concluded that the amount | of suffering in this world is enough that anyone would be | better off never having been born. Others may disagree on | this point as it pleases them, but they must accept that | if they believe themselves to have a stronger case than | the pessimist, then they are mistaken._ | | _Naturally, there are pessimists who do kill themselves, | but nothing obliges them to kill themselves or live with | the mark of the hypocrite on their brow. Voluntary death | might seem a thoroughly negative course of action, but it | is not as simple as that. Every negation is adulterated | or stealthily launched by an affirmative spirit. An | unequivocal "no" cannot be uttered or acted upon. | Lucifer's last words in heaven may have been "Non | serviam," but none has served the Almighty so dutifully, | since His sideshow in the clouds would never draw any | customers if it were not for the main attraction of the | devil's hell on earth. Only catatonics and coma patients | can persevere in a dignified withdrawal from life's | rattle and hum. Without a "yes" in our hearts, nothing | would be done. And to be done with our existence en masse | would be the most ambitious affirmation of all._ | throwanem wrote: | I believe this is the point at which a Brit might say | something on the order of "he likes the smell of his own | farts, doesn't he?" | morelisp wrote: | Speaking of such a crass intellect that it does not | deserve a response... | jotm wrote: | Well, it's hard to be happy when it requires you to actually | be _able_ to do what you want to do. Social hierarchy, | resources and even brain chemistry are not in everyone 's | favour. | | Contentness can be learned, though. | | Or just use that brainpower and create medication that tricks | the primitive parts of the brain into being happy. Profit! | antisthenes wrote: | > Or just use that brainpower and create medication that | tricks the primitive parts of the brain into being happy. | Profit! | | Thankfully, nature already did that for us. It's THC and | Alcohol. | NoGravitas wrote: | "There seems to be an inborn drive in all human beings not | to live in a steady emotional state, which would suggest | that such a state is not tolerable to most people. Why else | would someone succumb to the attractions of romantic love | more than once? Didn't they learn their lesson the first | time or the tenth time or the twentieth time? And it's the | same old lesson: everything in this life--I repeat, | everything--is more trouble than it's worth. And simply | being alive is the basic trouble. This is something that is | more recognized in Eastern societies than in the West. | There's a minor tradition in Greek philosophy that | instructs us to seek a state of equanimity rather than one | of ecstasy, but it never really caught on for obvious | reasons. Buddhism advises its practitioners not to seek | highs or lows but to follow a middle path to personal | salvation from the painful cravings of the average sensual | life, which is why it was pretty much reviled by the masses | and mutated into forms more suited to human drives and | desires. It seems evident that very few people can simply | sit still. Children spin in circles until they collapse | with dizziness." -- Thomas Ligotti | pmoriarty wrote: | Happiness is not getting what you want, it's wanting what | you get. | causasui wrote: | See also: the Ernest Becker quote featured in my profile. | | The Denial of Death was a life-changing read for me. | 52-6F-62 wrote: | "Bah, humbug!" | nemosaltat wrote: | Homo sapiens sapiens: Man who knows that he knows. What does he | know? That he's going to die. | tremon wrote: | No, that's homo sapiens moribundus | groby_b wrote: | There's no other kind. | throwanem wrote: | Well, Ligotti would certainly know from malignant uselessness. | Perhaps if he took a little more trouble for self-reflection he | would less often perpetrate it. | WinterMount223 wrote: | The selfish genes strike again. Humans (animals) are machines | evolved to replicate their genes, who don't care how happy or | unhappy their replication machines are. | titzer wrote: | "Oh, Thomas, silly ape. It's not about you." | | - Sincerely, this amazing universe that could contemplate | itself using your brain, if you'd stop feeling so bad about | yourself | amatecha wrote: | nice, I like this. thanks for sharing (and the later quote | further into the thread). it's such irony that the "miraculous" | consciousness we experience is simultaneously a curse ensuring | direct awareness of our mortality and [depending on opinion] | triviality. | bobro wrote: | jesus ligotti. go look at a sunset. eat some ice cream. hug a | loved one. good lord. | blueprint wrote: | What if a thing with consciousness is also the only living | thing which can accumulate a "self" that can propagate through | lifetimes? The principle of how plants produce seeds would be | the same although obviously the systems are different. To start | with, plants pass on their "selves" through their "bodies" and | seeds, but human children are obviously distinct selves, | therefore, perhaps we ought to start searching for a physical | system where a human self exists. It's an unconfirmed and | probably foolhardy assumption that the brain alone creates and | supports the existence or propagation of consciousness. What | else in the universe is capable of doing what we already | attribute to the physical capabilities of the brain as | pertaining to what we call the physical (e.g. electromagnetic) | activities of consciousness? | technothrasher wrote: | > It's an unconfirmed and probably foolhardy assumption that | the brain alone creates and supports the existence or | propagation of consciousness. | | This is not an assumption that science makes. However, we | have never observed consciousness in anything that does not | have a brain, and physically altering a brain can cause | fundamental changes in consciousness. So, until there is | evidence that consciousness is not tied directly to a brain, | its the best working model we have. Suppositions to the | contrary are interesting but meaningless without being | supported by evidence. | glaslong wrote: | This is advanced level edgelording | [deleted] | [deleted] | tombert wrote: | Crows and ravens continue to amaze me every day. I'm fairly sure | that there are a lot of humans that cannot ponder the content of | their own mind. | | Makes me feel bad for using the insult "bird brain" in the past. | tux1968 wrote: | Years ago I was putting out the garbage in the back alley behind | our building where I lived on the 8th floor. A crow attacked me | out of the blue. Distracted by the attack, the back door slammed | shut behind me. Since my key was only good for the front door, I | had to walk around the building. That damn crow followed me the | entire time, dive bombing my head, and screaming bloody murder at | me. It was a little spooky. | | When I finally got back inside and upstairs, I went and looked | out the living room window, which looked out the same direction | as the back alley. The crow had flown back around and was at the | 8th floor looking in the window, from the other side of the | pigeon netting we had on our balcony. On the inside of the pigeon | netting, was another crow, desperately trying to figure out how | it could escape. Not really sure how it had got itself through | the pigeon netting in the first place. | | I went out and sliced a hole through the netting and the trapped | crow quickly joined its mate outside, who finally stopped | screaming bloody murder. To this day it still amazes me that the | crow's mate, knew which apartment I lived in and spotted me | downstairs. | bdamm wrote: | One day I was out walking by the water. A small bird was | standing on a rock, apparently unable to fly. Crows were | gathering and preparing to feast. I tried to scare them off, | and sat by the little bird to prevent them from eating it. | Silly, but it seemed right to me. The crows were not impressed. | They became more daring, and eventually I decided to leave. A | trio of crows broke off from the group and followed me all the | way home, perhaps a mile's distance. They flew from branch to | branch as I walked, with the tail crow moving to the lead every | time. The tactical pattern continued the entire time. | | Maybe it was just me, but for months I could have sworn there | were crows out sounding the alarm whenever I left my apartment. | | Bears are another animal that seem to recognize individuals and | take offences personally. | zmgsabst wrote: | Crows are capable of identifying and remembering individual | humans. | | https://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/26/science/26crow.html | | There's a delicate balance to be struck if you live in a | neighborhood with a large crow population and also like to | pet neighborhood cats -- and like most of life, bribes go a | long way to lubricate the peace. | at-fates-hands wrote: | I think the real question here is when _consciousness_ evolved | and where did it evolve from? Researchers have always felt a | cerebral cortex is necessary to experience "consciousness" but | crows have confirmed that's not necessary which only deepens the | mystery: | | _This research has important consequences for our understanding | of the evolution of higher intelligence. First, a cerebral cortex | is not needed, and there are other anatomical means to achieve | the same outcome. Second, either the evolution of consciousness | is very ancient, tracing back to the last common ancestor of | mammals and birds about 320 million years ago, or, equally | intriguing, consciousness arose at least twice later on, | independently in mammals and birds. Both options raise the | likelihood, in my view, that higher intelligence on other planets | may not necessarily be mammal or human-like, but could very well | be birdlike._ | | https://www.smithsonianmag.com/air-space-magazine/crows-are-... | [deleted] | jrapdx3 wrote: | My house sits at near tree-top level, Steller's jays are frequent | visitors. Like other corvids they're intelligent but also cranky, | often contentious critters. The jays absolutely adore peanuts. | Fun to watch their peanut selection procedure. They'll pick up a | peanut then put it down, pick up another one put it down, maybe | go back to first one. We're convinced they're hefting peanuts to | select the heaviest. Then there's the occasional very vocal | "argument" that breaks out. Bears astonishingly close resemblance | to shrill overwrought political "discussions" we've heard, it's | hilarious. Without doubt the jays are comedians in the avian | community. | | Curiously crows (abundant around here too) have displayed little | interest in the peanuts on offer. OTOH there have been "wars" | between the crows and jays, not sure what "issues" precipitated | highly vocal confrontations. I assume it was territorial. | Significantly there was never any evidence of killed or wounded | black or blue participants. | | Strikes me as sad and shameful that these corvid cousins know | more about resolving differences than we humans ever seem to | learn. | juramento wrote: | But do crows know that humans know that crows know what they know | and can ponder the content of their own minds ? | Razengan wrote: | Do humans? | lostmsu wrote: | Yes, obviously. | [deleted] | bee_rider wrote: | Human behavior must be very confusing to the animals who | observe it. The strange situations we create by (for example) | dropping nets and catching dolphins, only to let them free. (Do | they know we put out those nets, or are we just helpful monkeys | that sit on the evil loud floating net monster and sometimes | save them?). | | And I wonder if the animals that we run these intelligence | tests on know the humans are behind the tests. Maybe if crows | achieve a culture with legends and stories, they'll have the a | trickster god -- white coat, glasses man. For lab rats I guess | white coat glasses man would take a more malicious aspect. | aspenmayer wrote: | Are you familiar with the Rats of NIMH series? | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mrs._Frisby_and_the_Rats_of_NI. | .. | | http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?15912 | bee_rider wrote: | Saw the movie, and read the first book I think (would have | been middle-elementary school aged, so memory is a bit | hazy). | dougSF70 wrote: | Does those crows know they won't be flying any time soon? | cmpb wrote: | Ever since I was a kid, whenever I would read things like this or | stuff about animals doing human-like things, I always wind up | thinking "what would it be like to be <whatever animal> for a | day?", and in particular, what exactly _are_ the similarities | between human cognition and other animals'. Even as a thought | experiment along the lines of "assume we had a machine that could | swap brains", it's always seems reasonable to assume that there | are certain faculties that we possess that would not translate | and would render the experience uncomprehendable (i.e., as a | bird, do I even have the ability to actively probe my | consciousness, to conceive and remember higher-order thoughts? | I've always assumed the answer is a hard no). | | I find myself wondering more and more if we are more similar than | I give animals credit for. | peter303 wrote: | Our Last Common Ancestors were 250 million years ago in the | Triassic. Amazing how intelligence can evolve multiple times. | mellavora wrote: | naw, just once, in trees. The rest of us got it from them. | javajosh wrote: | It is surprising. I suspect there are many millions of planets | in our galaxy where intelligent life evolved and even invented | radio, and I suspect that all but one or two of those | civilizations ended disaster within about 100 years. It seems | to be quite a challenge for a technological civilization to | survive its own side-effects. | awb wrote: | > I suspect that all but one or two of those civilizations | ended disaster within about 100 years | | All sorts of biological / ecological factors would come into | play like average lifespan, the size of life in relation to | the size of the planet, resource scarcity, reproduction | rates, mobility, avg. number of offspring, mutation rates, | weather patterns, geography, etc. | | Then you get into social and technological factors. | | We have a sample size of 1, so it's hard to extrapolate or | understand where we are on the probability curve. | | The best data point we might have for a self-inflicted | civilization ending event would be looking at it from a | smaller point view. How many times in history has one group | attacked another such that both groups ceased to exist? | | One positive sign is that even with all our destruction and | violence, someone usually wins or backs down with the ability | to continue on living. | | Of course there are always long-tail events like mutually | assured destruction, but I don't know if 100 years is the | correct timetable for ~100% certainty. | | There was an interesting HN discussion about it a few weeks | ago here with folks chiming in on the best ways to assess the | odds of a long-tail event like MAD: | | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30545558 | sph wrote: | The Fermi Paradox might be on an earlier stage of evolution. | Perhaps it's easier that we thought to evolve intelligence | from our common ancestor, but going from inert chemistry | floating in space to that common ancestor is astronomically | rare. | doliveira wrote: | There's the data point that life here on Earth began as | soon as it could when the planet cooled off. So it suggests | life itself might not be that rare. | klabb3 wrote: | It's amazing indeed. Octopus is ~600M years away, same story | and even more different biology. | dmje wrote: | The strangest picture I ever took was of an upside down crow. | It's the first load on our band website https://blameclub.com | | I posted it to Reddit at the time and got a bunch of suggestions | ranging from "it's dead" to "crows love to play tricks". I never | got to the bottom of what was going on. | ornornor wrote: | Maybe one day we'll start accepting we're not the only | "intelligent" things on this planet and start treating all | animals a little better/stop eating them. | u385639 wrote: | How will we teach other animals to stop eating other animals? | pxi wrote: | Is it possible that crows might also have some form of religion? | dorianmariefr wrote: | Rick knew I guess https://rickandmorty.fandom.com/wiki/Two_Crows | MaxMoney wrote: | mitch3x3 wrote: | About a year ago my dog (~7mo at the time) would lunge at the | ravens and try to chase them even though he was on a leash. I | changed my route to prevent that behavior, but the ravens | remembered both of us. | | One morning they flew above us with a rotting sausage and dropped | it right in front of my dog and waited for him to eat it. I had | to pull it out of his mouth and when I looked up the ravens were | all watching us. | | I can't say for sure, but it certainly felt like revenge. | aiana wrote: ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-03-24 23:00 UTC)