[HN Gopher] Are you a baby? A litmus test ___________________________________________________________________ Are you a baby? A litmus test Author : mooreds Score : 391 points Date : 2022-04-04 13:51 UTC (9 hours ago) (HTM) web link (haleynahman.substack.com) (TXT) w3m dump (haleynahman.substack.com) | billllll wrote: | Why is being avoidant "babying" yourself and thus bad? | | Taking the first example of arriving early at a dinner party with | hosts you aren't familiar with, why do we need to bully ourselves | into arriving early? From my perspective, the "adult" thing to do | would be to wholly own whichever decision we make and the | resulting consequences. Not showing up earlier with means you | lose out on a great chance at making a meaningful connection with | someone new, but it's more comfortable and hey, sometimes we're | just out of social energy, that's okay too. | | Taking the second example of a building mosh pit, if a large | group of people are moshing, and all your friends are | comfortable, maybe it's a sign that things are safer than you | think. In that case, I would think that staying would provide an | opportunity to move outside of your comfort-zone and maybe | experience something new, and that's definitely not babying | yourself. Nor is it treating your friends as babies, since you | are relying on their judgment. And as the author states, we're | also free to move to the back: that's not treating anyone as a | baby either. In my mind, the key is again owning the decision and | the consequences. | lubesGordi wrote: | In the 'Electric Koolaid Acid Test' they'd call this 'being out | front.' | thrwy_ywrht wrote: | I find it a bit strange that the author leads with the example of | wanting to "blind cancel", and then suggests that maturity and | communication is the real answer to that scenario. | | People sometimes seem to imply that if we could just select the | most appropriate types of language, and only express our true, | heartfelt feelings, then our language will never cause pain. | | But that's just not true. Sometimes your friend may also secretly | want to cancel, but other times your friend will be hurt by | knowing you want to cancel the plans you made together that they | have, for whatever reason, been really looking forward to. And | sometimes there _doesn 't exist_ a way to communicate your true | feelings without potentially causing pain. Being mature and | communicating truthfully cannot solve this problem. Often times | the solution is to suck it up and stick to the plans -- but that | has nothing to do with communication. | jonahx wrote: | >And sometimes there doesn't exist a way to communicate your | true feelings without potentially causing pain. Being mature | and communicating truthfully cannot solve this problem. | | That's because it's not a problem. | | The point of the article is that it's babyish to be so fragile | that a friend cancelling plans causes you great pain, or so | guilt-ridden that you can't bring yourself to cancel. In both | cases the solution is not to avoid the feelings, but to become | stronger. | grog454 wrote: | I agreed with your first sentence but not the rest. It's not | a problem because pain is not inherently a problem. | | Yes it's going to hurt to find out someone doesn't want to go | through with plans. It's going to hurt even more to find out | they really don't enjoy your company as much as you thought | they did, or as much as you do theirs. But how is keeping | your head buried in the sand going to be more beneficial in | the long run? | jonahx wrote: | We're saying the same thing. | thrwy_ywrht wrote: | >It's going to hurt even more to find out they really don't | enjoy your company as much as you thought they did | | This is the crux of the issue. There are many people who | often feel like cancelling on plans, but it is absolutely | _not_ because they don 't enjoy their friends' company. It | might be because they have a mood disorder, or chronic | fatigue, or social anxiety, etc etc. The whole reason | someone might _want_ an app that lets you cancel on plans, | but only if the other person also wants to cancel, is | _because_ it 's almost impossible to express this feeling | to someone without that person drawing the conclusion, to | some degree, that you enjoy their company less than they | thought. | | If you genuinely don't enjoy spending time with someone, | that's a much easier problem to solve. | em-bee wrote: | if you cancel without telling me why then i am even more | likely to draw the (wrong) conclusion. and if you, and if | i wanted to cancel too, then i am still going to wonder | why you wanted to cancel. the only way to avoid | misinterpretation is to state the reason outright. | Dylan16807 wrote: | Giving a reason could be part of the process. | bumby wrote: | > _The whole reason someone might want an app that lets | you cancel on plans_ | | I know this is HN where we are probably all biased | towards creating software solutions, but do you _really_ | think software is the right lever to this problem? | | The root cause is that people don't feel psychologically | safe enough to voice their wish to cancel. I don't know | that an app really helps that, it just provides an escape | hatch. I'd much rather a person say to me, "Look, it's | nothing about you, but I struggle with social anxiety and | it's getting the best of me right now and need to | cancel." Not only would that give me greater compassion | for what they're going through, it would also help tailor | future outings to alleviate that. Just having a "cancel | matching" app won't do anything to foster that kind of | growth. | | To me this feels like one of those distinctions between | "can" and "should" in tech. | Dylan16807 wrote: | > I know this is HN where we are probably all biased | towards creating software solutions, but do you really | think software is the right lever to this problem? | | I'm not sure how you got that impression from that | sentence, especially because the word "want" was | emphasized. | bumby wrote: | I'm sorry, I'm not following. I'm assuming someone would | want something because they feel like it's a solution to | their problem. In this case, I'm saying I think software | is the wrong "solution" because it just treats the | symptom (get me out of this obligation) and not the | underlying cause (provide psychological trust). Did you | interpret the sentence differently? | Dylan16807 wrote: | They want the supposed benefit. That doesn't mean they | think the mechanism is correct, or even that any | mechanism could actually do it in a non-abstract way. | bumby wrote: | That's kinda the point of the last sentence in the my | original comment. People may desire an app that optimizes | their ability to connect with drug dealers. It's | certainly possible from a technical standpoint. It | doesn't mean it's a good idea. | | Likewise an app that allows you easily bail on social | engagements guilt-free through minimized interactions is | probably not a good idea because those interactions are | exactly how you build the trust that's the root cause of | the guilt in the first place. | | Maybe we're miscommunicating. I'm not implying the | software solution exists, just that that desire for such | an app may be misplaced. | Dylan16807 wrote: | > Likewise an app that allows you easily bail on social | engagements guilt-free through minimized interactions is | probably not a good idea because those interactions are | exactly how you build the trust that's the root cause of | the guilt in the first place. | | The interactions of possibly cancelling things? I don't | know about that. And expecially the interactions of | cancelling things both people want to cancel? That | doesn't seem notably trust-buildy to me. | | > Maybe we're miscommunicating. I'm not implying the | software solution exists, just that that desire for such | an app may be misplaced. | | And I'm saying the desire isn't specifically for an app, | and shouldn't have given you that impression that the | poster thought software was "the right lever" in the | first place. | alar44 wrote: | > It might be because they have a mood disorder, or | chronic fatigue, or social anxiety, etc etc. | | This is a babies excuse. If you're an adult, you should | be actively dealing with this. However, it has become | fashionable to wear a psychological condition on your | sleeve. People who use this as an excuse have likely | never been diagnosed and probably aren't even trying to | deal with it. Either way, those are their battles, and if | it means they are flaky, we just won't be friends. I've | done the hard work to get myself out of a social anxiety | disorder and can easily tell who actually has similar | issues and those who are just lazy flakes. | jonahx wrote: | >is because it's almost impossible to express this | feeling to someone without that person drawing the | conclusion, to some degree, that you enjoy their company | less than they thought. | | Not only is it not "almost impossible" -- it's easy. | Especially if you have a reputation for being honest. | | "Listen, I am feeling like shit right now, and won't have | fun if we go out. It's got nothing to do with you. Can we | reschedule?" | librish wrote: | The problem is that this is what people say even when it | does have something to do with you. | jonahx wrote: | I mean, in the same sense that it's "a problem" when a | con man gives the same pitch as a trustworthy salesman. | | The solution isn't for the trustworthy to stop honestly | describing their products. It's to gain a reputation for | honesty. | | Also, you'll the know the truth from the context of your | overall relationship, or, if that is thin, when they do | actually reschedule. | librish wrote: | Yes but empirically the chance of someone rescheduling is | low. | nkrisc wrote: | You can't control what other people think about you. | Better to just tell the truth instead of trying to shape | their opinion of you. | mgfist wrote: | So? It's not your responsibility for someone else's | insecurity - and in fact, if you stop to assume that they | think this way, you'll find that they 9/10 times do not. | librish wrote: | I'm not sure how responsibility plays in. Being bluntly | honest lowers your chance of making friends, in my | experience. | mitchdoogle wrote: | By the author's metric, I think this statement would be | "Active" if it were an honest statement, i.e. you're | actually sick, but it would be "Avoidant" if it is | deceptive | Koji8 wrote: | neogodless wrote: | I always found the "Boundaries" (Henry Cloud) distinction | here very useful. | | It's OK to "hurt" someone - that is, if you are | communicating the truth, your boundaries, your needs, you | may hurt someone. | | It's not OK to "harm" someone - that is, you do | intentional/lasting damage to them through your actions. | (My wording is not nearly as on point as the original | author, but I hope you get the gist.) | | Here's a snippet: | | https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/654449-there-is-a-big- | diffe... | thrwy_ywrht wrote: | >The point of the article is that it's babyish to be so | fragile that a friend cancelling plans causes you great pain, | or so guilt-ridden that you can't bring yourself to cancel. | | My reading of the scenario is not that the person is too | "guilt-ridden" to bring themselves to cancel - it's that they | only _mildly_ want to cancel, for frivolous reasons. They | want to find out if the other person also mildly wants to | cancel. The point is, in many relationships it is simply not | possible to find this information out, because asking "how | much do you want to keep our plans" in and of itself reveals | that you want to cancel. | | You can't measure how much the other person truly wants to | cancel, because attempting to take the measurement will alter | the outcome. | fluoridation wrote: | I don't think that's quite right. It's not that they mildly | want to cancel some plan, but rather that they don't really | want to do it and are only going along with it because they | think the other person wants to do it. Thus the | hypothetical app would solve the situation where both | people are doing something only because each thinks the | other person wants to do it, but in fact neither wants to | do it and neither wants to disappoint the other one by | telling them they don't want to do it. | mattcwilson wrote: | The other branch of this post's children, from thrwy_ywrht | is a perfect example of the sort of neurotic overanalysis | that the article's talking about. It's extra cute that the | poster is using a throwaway account. | | Some of the decisions you make in life will run counter to | other people's expectations. The strength you get, and | demonstrate to them as well, from communicating your | intentions is in acknowledging you can't "protect their | feelings" and aren't trying, and that you have the respect | for them as well to manage and regulate their own feelings. | | Good people will understand and forgive minor infractions. | This isn't license to freely commit any infraction. It's | just an acknowledgment of everyone's fallibility. | watwut wrote: | > It's just an acknowledgment of everyone's fallibility. | | You are not describing failure there. You are describing | the "I made plans I feel like cancelling and don't care | about other person". | | Them reacting negatively is healthy self presentation | instinct. Because if this is your strategy, you will | cancel regularly and they are better off finding more | reliable friends. | mattcwilson wrote: | Feels like we're maybe saying the same thing? | | I'm saying: | | * People are fallible. They will sometimes commit minor | infractions, either accidentally or with sincere remorse. | | * Good people will forgive minor infractions. | | * This is not a license to commit infractions with | abandon or remorselessness, or of any major size, and | expect forgiveness. | jonahx wrote: | >You can't measure how much the other person truly wants to | cancel, because attempting to take the measurement will | alter the outcome. | | I get it. Again, the point is, so what? Take the | measurement and alter the outcome. Or decide you're the one | being the baby and keep the plans. | jazzkingrt wrote: | I agree when it comes to plans. | | But in general, aren't there some cases where we want to | moderate our communication based on how it will be | received? Honesty is the right default, but not | universally correct. | | The classic example is that it might be preferable to | tell someone that a dress they just bought looks good on | them. | | I think as children we tend to be too honest, and then | overshoot as teens or young adults by worrying too much | about social acceptance. And we have to find a middle | ground. | s1artibartfast wrote: | >You can't measure how much the other person truly wants to | cancel, because attempting to take the measurement will | alter the outcome. | | There are 101 ways to addresses this. "How are you feeling | about the plans" is simple enough if two people are being | honest with each other. | mikepurvis wrote: | I agree. I've had lots of these kinds of interactions-- | it's definitely possible to "put out feelers" on whether | someone is really excited about a thing or just going | along with it. | | Yes there is a slight risk that that action will put a | damper on the other person's interest, but it's not a | huge deal to recover from-- either by amping yourself up | to assure them that you really are excited for the thing | they're excited about, or taking the initiative the next | time to make a thing happen that you know you can be | excited about and follow through on. | | I've definitely also triggered the damper reaction | accidentally in the past when just trying to make an | innocent inquiry about a start time or something, so even | if you rarely do it for real, it's good to understand | these dynamics and how to navigate them. | s1artibartfast wrote: | I think the whole thing stems from fear of others seeing | you as you truly are. | | If you are on the fence and not excited, that.. is | reality and you can own it. You dont have to hide it, but | it may have some consequences. | | I think people would be happier if they spent less time | hiding behind deceptions, and more time managing the | consequences. | mikepurvis wrote: | I think for me a lot of it is just the knowledge that | often I end up really enjoying and feeling good about | activities that I may not have been all that excited for | at the outset-- fitness stuff like swimming or going for | a bike ride are obvious examples. | | So it's not just a matter of me being _deceptive_ , it's | also the internal conflict between my lizard brain ("stay | home and do nothing, so great") and my thoughtful brain | ("you enjoyed this the last time, give it a chance, ya | dummy"). The not-being-a-baby for me is having the | executive function to go do a thing that I know I'm | probably going to end up being glad I did, while not | wanting to be a wet blanket for everyone else by letting | them all know upfront that I'm not there yet. | s1artibartfast wrote: | I completely agree and think that is normal for a lot of | people. I was just saying that is perfectly reasonable | and healthy to explain this to someone else if you choose | to reach out to them. | | EG: | | Person 1: Do you still want to do X? | | Person 2: Yes, why? | | Person 1: I just wanted to check in. I usually get | (anxious, lazy, scared) before this kinda thing. I know | I'm going to end up being glad I did. | | This is a normal conversation and builds healthy | relationships, but for some reason people are often | hesitant to say how they feel and want to put on a | facade. It is a lot easier to be candid than | internalizing it and lying. | betwixthewires wrote: | I think it's appropriate to get upset when someone cancels. I | think it is more adult to only commit to something you intend | to follow through on. | | Life happens. Sometimes some people cancel. But if you're one | of those people always canceling plans, be prepared to find | your invites become less frequent, and people not planning | things around what you say. | | I've come to the point where if I don't know whether I want | to do something I say "I'm not sure yet I'll let you know" | and then _always_ actually fess up and let them know one way | or another, or say "yes" or "no" and follow through no | matter how I feel. And I expect the same of people, people | who get to know me who are used to peer pressure find | themselves initially worried about saying no, but then I | find, pleasantly refreshed when I just say "OK." People that | flake a lot though get annoyed with me, because I hold them | to what they say and give them a hard time if they don't | follow through. | watwut wrote: | This does not sound like being strong or mature. | | This just sounds like insulting people for having feelings | and hoping that since you called it "babyish", they will be | insecure enough to not argue with you. | [deleted] | ewidar wrote: | I think you're missing part of the author's point. | | Yes, as adults, we are bound to "cause some pain" as you put it | in some mundane situations, such as cancelling a plan that | someone else has been looking forward to. | | But her point is that what matters is expressing and discussing | with your friends in that scenario: | | - Tell them you don't feel like going out after all, maybe | you're drained by work and need some time to cool off | | - They could answer that it's fine, they don't mind going out | alone | | - Or maybe they'll propose to just stay in at your place for a | quick dinner, just to catch up for a bit and let you rest | | - Or they could let you know that they really _need_ to go out | with you, as they are going through a rough patch | | - At that point you have a better idea of what different | options you both have, and you can make an informed decision | either way, deciding between your needs and your friend's | needs. | | - etc... | | Obviously if that friend is important to you and you've already | cancelled 3 times then maybe suck it up a bit. It's all a | matter of context. | | The point is that you should start by not avoiding that | interaction with your friend for silly reasons, and relying on | tech/tricks is not going to help for long. | dleslie wrote: | > People sometimes seem to imply that if we could just select | the most appropriate types of language, and only express our | true, heartfelt feelings, then our language will never cause | pain. | | Accepting the inevitability and utility of pain is part of | being an adult. Childhood should teach us how to handle pain | and mitigate the pain we cause, but not to avoid it | unnecessarily. | mdoms wrote: | You're missing the point. The desire to bail out of a social | commitment is the problem, not the way you're doing it. Blind | cancelling or coming right out and saying it are both baby | behaviour. | adewinter wrote: | >> I find it a bit strange that the author leads with the | example of wanting to "blind cancel", and then suggests that | maturity and communication is the real answer to that scenario. | | I don't think that's the _only_ solution the author is | suggesting. She also goes on to mention "...self-knowledge: | Will you be in the mood next week?". In other words, don't make | plans if you're not confident you won't break them. Similar to | the idea of "hell yes or no" as a response to social requests. | If you don't have a strong sense for stuff you like/don't like | doing and how you'll feel about social situations in the future | that's going to be tough. | em-bee wrote: | no matter how much i look forward to an activity with a friend, | if they don't want to go, then i want to know, i'd rather | cancel or reschedule than have someone be secretly miserable. | the relationship itself is more important than my feelings | about it. for a close friend, avoidance is damaging to the | relationship, talking about it, strengthens the relationship. | | sucking it up quietly is the wrong answer. | | sometimes there may be a situation where canceling causes | problems for the other person, but you only find out by talking | about it and if you end up going anyways after you tell them, | they will appreciate it even more that your friendship is worth | so much that you are willing to be uncomfortable for their | sake. | caddemon wrote: | It really depends on the situation IMO. "Sucking it up | quietly" doesn't necessarily mean that the entire event will | be unpleasant. Sometimes it is more like the activation | energy necessary to stick to an exercise routine - if I had a | draining work week I'll have low motivation to go out, but if | I do "suck it up" I'm usually happy at the end of the night | that I did. | | The social pressure to "suck it up" can actually be an | awesome motivator for healthy behaviors, e.g. committing to a | rec sports team. So there is definitely variation here. You | need to know not just how important the event is to your | friend, but also yourself. | em-bee wrote: | right, it depends, if the thing that agreed to has some | other benefits. | | an alternative example would be after that draining work | week cancelling an activity because i know i'll be tired | the next morning and i really need more rest to be fit the | next day. | jonnycomputer wrote: | Sometimes your friend will want to cancel _and_ be upset when | you feel the same. | allenu wrote: | I enjoyed this post. Choosing what actions to take when there | isn't a clear right or wrong is really what makes being an adult | interesting. | | I've found that it helps to ask if the thing that I'm avoiding is | something that is reasonable for me to accomplish and something | that will help me grow, such that perhaps if I encounter it again | I can handle it better. If so, I should take action instead of | avoiding it. | | In the case of the mosh pit example, staying in the pit even if | you didn't want to didn't really give you any growth | opportunities, unless you were really eager to "learn" how to | mosh. | | Going to the party when you didn't want to, although possibly | awkward, was such a growth opportunity. It afforded a chance to | flex social skills, and the downside was likely overstated. In | the future, should such a scenario arise, the author can now deal | with it much more easily. | | I think we have deep feeling of "I didn't do what I should've" | (and a sense of personal failure) when we choose to avoid action | and we recognize that we've denied ourselves a growth | opportunity. Our analytical brain may not pick up on it to form | the thought, but I think we still know it. | ajkjk wrote: | I like this article, but I wish it was phrased "are you being a | baby" instead of "are you a baby". Labeling oneself as wholly a | particular attribute is one of the mechanisms by which anxiety | takes root: you _are_ or _aren't_ something, full stop. Labeling | actions or states shifts your mindset so that you can clearly see | this is something you're free to change. It's the sort of thing | that makes no difference at a factual level (they're logically | equivalent! right!?) but emotionally the tone shift makes a huge | difference. | mdoms wrote: | Presumably no actual babies are reading the article so I think | it's quite clear what the author means. | gotaquestion wrote: | Excellent point. I try to do that on HN: differentiate between | describing how you interpreted what they typed ("said something | greedy and childish") rather than a value statement about that | person ("you are greedy and childish"). Easy to forget | sometimes, but super important to separate the words/actions | from the person. We all say/do dumb shit sometimes that is out | of our normative character for all sorts of reasons. | rilezg wrote: | I certainly agree that it's important to leave people room to | change who they are, but if a person isn't defined by their | actions, then what are they? | | I guess it is polite discourse these days to distance a | person's actions from some intangible person-ness, but it | feels very mushy. | gotaquestion wrote: | "I guess it is polite discourse these days to distance a | person's actions from some intangible person-ness" | | Are you acting obnoxious or are you obnoxious? | rilezg wrote: | Beauty is in the eye of the beholder ;) | ajkjk wrote: | A person is perhaps defined by _all_ their actions, but | they're not very definable by a single action, out of | context. That's the kind of reasoning that writes someone | off if they make a mistake, which is totally intolerant. | rilezg wrote: | That's fair. I would say a person is defined by what they | do next. | | I think what you're saying is that you should be careful | telling someone that they 'are a baby' or 'are dumb', | because they might believe you. | | I would also be careful of telling someone they are | 'acting like a baby' or 'acting dumb', because most | people won't appreciate the semantic difference. | | In the context of this article, though, I'm not too | bothered since the article is about how one can change | their baby-like habits. But it is always a good reminder. | ajkjk wrote: | I'm not really so concerned with what you tell someone | else, but what you end up telling yourself can be pretty | important and stick with you for a long time. an article | like this is mostly targeted at one's perception of | themselves, and if you read it and start to adopt the | model that that "you are a baby" when you act that way, | you might have adopted a slightly less healthy model than | you could have. | dymk wrote: | It seems blindingly clear what the author means, and if one | isn't going to connect with the article because they're hung up | on "is acting like" versus "is", they weren't going to get it | anyways. | mitchdoogle wrote: | Why do you think it's "blindingly clear"? If you're going to | use such strong language, it should be easy to present your | argument in a more convincing way. Others disagree with you - | I think calling them wrong without so much as a single line | to suggest why is very much "being a baby". You think others | should just agree with you because it's what YOU think - my | five year old niece seems to think this way as well. | dymk wrote: | The person I'm responding to acknowledges that "is a" & | "acts like a" are equivalent in the context of the article. | | If somebody is getting hung up on something as nit-picky as | that, they're not going to see the forest for the trees in | an article like this. | | Ironically, playing nit-picky semantics games like this is | the kind of avoidant attitude that lead people astray from | personal growth. | gotaquestion wrote: | You're literally doing what OP is objecting to, and it is | making you act like an ass, or are you just an ass? Which | do you prefer, or am I nit picking? :) | | EDIT: Guess you understand now. | ajkjk wrote: | Yeah, my point is exactly that although it is clear at a | language level, the terminology shift can be quite important | for whether you end up with a thought process that's healthy | vs entangled with anxiety. If you don't believe that -- | perhaps you haven't dealt with a lot of anxiety in your life? | drnonsense42 wrote: | Reading this thread is surreal. If this is the litmus test for | being an adult, we've really jumped the shark as a society | (certain groups, anyway). It's like watching a group of | domesticated cats debate which characteristics makes them a | tiger. | charles_f wrote: | Reminds me of _The testaments_ (the sequel to _handmaid 's | tale_). There was a bit on that fact that no-one actually wanted | for Gilead to happen, but the movement started too fast and | everyone was too scared to diverge. It took a life of its own. | | I think this is a legitimate social behavior where for various | reasons you don't want to divest from a commitment (don't want to | be an outlier, FOMO, don't want to hurt people, ...). Ideally you | would fix that through communication, but we're also human after | all, and have to deal with reality of social constructs and | culture. You don't always have the emotional capital with people | to just bail. Sometimes you're in a situation where you know | that, were you to bring up that you'd prefer not to do something, | the other person would immediately cancel to accommodate, even | though the cost (emotional, not $$) for you to do it is lower | than the cost for them no to do. | | And then sometimes you enter a loop about something scary that | you only do because your friends are in. A year ago I did my | first major multi-day ski touring traverse. A physically and | psychologically taxing thing, where once you're committed in it, | you don't have a choice but complete (you can't ski down, you | _have to_ finish the loop, no matter how hard it is). I was | scared AF, trying to find a good excuse to skip. It didn 't and | we did it, and it was the best thing I've done in all 2021. | Talking about it afterwards, turns out we were all in that mental | space, scared and only motivated by the fact that we'd do it | together. If _1_ person had emitted doubts, we would have all | bailed. In the end, luckily no-one did. | | So I don't think the idea behind it is necessarily bad, and I | don't think you're a baby for not telling someone you're not | ecstatic about something. | omginternets wrote: | The author obliquely touches on this, but my sense is that people | need to cut themselves a lot more slack. A large part of becoming | an adult is learning to navigate ambiguous social signals, and to | make decisions without the comfort of having another adult's | prior approval. | | My advice to 20-somethings is to be gentle with themselves. The | "boot-strapping, we-can-do-hard-things motivational speaker" talk | isn't so much wrong as it is ascetic. As it turns out, you can be | a responsible, virtuous and respectable adult without being so | damn hard on yourself. In fact, I think I became an adult the | moment I recognized that the child in me needed some care, and | that I alone could provide it. | | EDIT: on second thought, my wife provides a fair bit of that too, | and I for her. | mattcwilson wrote: | That's a fair point. But also, it may not be the right advice | for 20-somethings who are already being _too_ gentle with | themselves, which is the audience I think the author is trying | to reach. | | Advice falls on a spectrum, and whether to follow it or not | rests much on your present circumstances versus the advice | giver's. | | https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/03/24/should-you-reverse-any... | omginternets wrote: | I see your point, and even agree that "coddled 20-somethings" | are a real and worrying phenomenon. Where I respectfully | disagree is with the idea that the ascetic, protestant-work- | ethic, hard-truth-telling, pull-yourself-together rhetoric is | helpful to them. Even Jordan Peterson, who is arguably the | epitome of that category, explicitly recognizes that the way | forward is through incremental baby-steps. To wit: he (along | with essentially every clinical psychologist) recommends | aiming for small victories (make your bed, get your car's oil | changed, etc.) and rewarding oneself, say, with a cup of | coffee on the way home. | | It's in this sense that I think hardlining oneself is | counter-productive. Worse, I think it's even _more_ | counterproductive for coddled youth. The way to pull oneself | up by one 's bootstraps is gently, or at least, | compassionately. | teekert wrote: | I love this, it's very recognizable. I love how structured this | is. This is to me what the books of Ayn Rand were about: rational | self interest. Rational as in social and kind, but with a healthy | regard for the interests of the self (good luck figuring those | out btw, but man is it important in almost all aspects of life). | Ayn Rand to me was not about being anti- or pro-state, or about | the "motors of the economy" that deserve to reap the benefits. | Rational self interest was my primary take away from Howard Roark | and Dagny Taggart. | | Aren't those people that wouldn't be with you tonight (or at any | time), if they didn't really want to, the best people to be | around? Those people that are with you because they genuinely | want to be, they should be treasured. What value is there in | those others? What are they doing with their lives anyway? What | are you doing dragging your feet again and again to places you | don't enjoy? Do you even remember what you, YOU, really enjoy? I | struggled a lot with this. In this sense, Ayn Rand helped me | "grow up" as OP puts it. Yes, Roark goes way further than I would | probably ever go, but Roark is not me and I enjoy a bit of | harmony seeking in a group (up to a certain level that is), or | setting an atmosphere. Ayn made heroes out of entrepreneurial, | intelligent loners, imho that is not a core requirement of her | philosophy (or way of life). It is about knowing the self, also | when that self is more of a social animal, a bit of pleaser from | time to time even. | | Imho it is true that self-esteem correlates with how much joy you | will let yourself feel in life. Too much and you hurt others, too | little and you hurt yourself. There must be a balance. | TheRealDunkirk wrote: | > Technology babies us all the time. | | Technology is a symptom; not the disease. We wallow in narcissism | and convenience because of the relatively enormous wealth we, and | our country in general, enjoy. Being able to buy just about | anything that we want (at least some version of it), and being | able to insulate ourselves in a tiny bubble of like minded people | and thought has infantilized us. Technology -- enabled by the | wealth of the Western world -- has enabled it, but wealth is at | the core. We can AFFORD to be babies. So we are. Boy, howdy! We | are. | douglee650 wrote: | One of the most neurotic pieces I've read; that said, I | understand now that a lot of people are not comfortable with | their identities, that they are still "trying things on" | [deleted] | anarticle wrote: | Pretty impressive someone took the time to even write this. | | If you are going to anything: BE ON TIME. We have more reasons | than ever to be on time or even early, live directions, maps, | scheduling. Things happen and some times can be non-exact, that's | totally fine. But if you're showing up 2h late to a show, or | event on the regular there are issues you need to fix in your | life. How did people without smart phones manage!? | | If you cancel/try to reschedule a group event the same day, more | than once, it is unlikely I will ever give you a concession on | time or place in the future because you're a pain in the ass. | | I've had these kinds of main character friends who will cancel on | an event the morning before, then offer a reschedule that same | day to a later or earlier time. Repeatedly. | | This signals to me: "I am more important than the other people | that are coming, so they should change their schedule for me." No | thanks. I'll drop you a note when everything is happening but | until you hit the mark I'm gonna disregard everything you say. It | has driven my other friends crazy to their point they have asked | me: "Hey what's up with your friend Emily?" | | Other people have lives, just like yours! | | Don't offer to come in the first place if you can't make it. | There are times when you can't make it due to an emergency, and | that's fine, car breaks down, relationship issues, work | explosions, w/e. | | You can be busy, or whatever I don't give a shit, it's your life | sort it out. You can't do everything. You made too many plans: I | don't care. You decided something else was more important at the | last minute: This one is a guarantee I'm inviting you to less | things. This seems harsh, but do this rodeo more than a few times | and it will make YOU crazy. Also, "neurotic freak" is a weird way | to write "jerk". | | Probably there is a huge selection bias here as I have two | friends that are now less good friends due to whatever this | cancel algorithm is. I've lived it and fixed it! :D Save yourself | a click, read Nonviolent Communication, and improve your life. | jimmaswell wrote: | > flag if you were open to canceling a plan, which your friend | would only see if they also flagged it. | | I've had this idea for indicating along a series of steps of | being willing to advance a relationship without harming it by | expressing your desire for the next step too early for the other | person. It would have real value I think because there really is | potentially ruinous cost to being perceived as jumping the gun. | mise_en_place wrote: | It's interesting to see how this author used to look like, and | contrast that with what she looks like now. IME, attractive | people generally feel they have a license to be shitty to others, | and won't have any self awareness or remorse about it. | | Once the looks fade, then the self-reflection and introspection | begins. It is difficult to be introspective and humble when | you're in the 99th percentile, when you feel like you're on top | of the world. | niek_pas wrote: | Would you have made the same observation if the author had been | a man? | mise_en_place wrote: | Yes, and it would be doubly true. Attractive men behave in | the stereotypical alpha manner, very aggressive without any | empathy. Society will excuse them because they are attractive | and wealthy. | maps7 wrote: | > Attractive men behave in the stereotypical alpha manner, | very aggressive without any empathy. | | I have rarely found that statement to be true. | djmips wrote: | I think your premise has some merit however it doesn't seem to | be appropriate to this particular person or topic. | divs1210 wrote: | This has been done conclusively a long time ago. | | Owning a Doink-it [0] is the only proof you're not a baby. | | Why we are even discussing this is beyond me. | | [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eb5sNjhItw | ricardo81 wrote: | Not even sure what 'this' is any more. Someone taking micro | daily decisions for her own personal pleasure/displeasure and | it somehow being an example for everyone else. | glitchc wrote: | The key bit here is communication: An adult communicates their | rationale for a given situation while also acknowledging that the | rationale may not be shared by others. In the old days we called | it sticking to your principles. | | For the dinner party, it's perfectly okay to be late if the | lateness is communicated ahead of time to the host and the reason | is a valid one. "Afraid to meet you on my own" is not a valid | reason. | | Canceling or ghosting is not a valid reason period. | irrational wrote: | > "Afraid to meet you on my own" is not a valid reason. | | Why is that not a valid reason? | em-bee wrote: | it's a valid reason for yourself, but it's a reason that is | difficult to communicate. | Dylan16807 wrote: | If it's a legitimate fear, it's not really compatible with | "dinner party". | | If it's just anxiety, then it's valid to feel but is not a | valid _reason_ for doing much of anything. | bumby wrote: | While an apt distinction, I think it's important to | acknowledge that one's body and subconscious often cannot | distinguish between "anxiety" and "fear" even though our | higher level faculties may. | watwut wrote: | Imo, real adulthood is to recognize that adults communicate in | variety of ways. Real world adults are not and never were | perfectly communicating non-emotional beings. | glitchc wrote: | It doesn't need to be perfect, it just needs to be tried. | Adults make an attempt to communicate, especially in social | settings. | fluoridation wrote: | I thought "sticking to your principles" meant that you | persisted in your course of action or thought convinced that it | was the best one, despite other people's objections. | pbohun wrote: | I think a better way of explaining "sticking to your | principles" is to not succumb to temptation or social | pressure to do something wrong. | danuker wrote: | > "Afraid to meet you on my own" is not a valid reason. | | Sure it is. Maybe you're about to meet an ex who used to beat | you. | dwaltrip wrote: | One shouldn't attend such an event. | tfigment wrote: | Unless its necessary like custody exchange of children or | similar required event. | dwaltrip wrote: | Yes, sure. But we were talking about social events. | glitchc wrote: | This is outside the context of the example though. Here the | author has accepted an invitation to a dinner party where | she's meeting the hosts for the very first time. I think part | of becoming an adult is mastering, or at least masking, | social anxiety of participating in new interactions. That's | because there's no way to know whether you will like or | dislike the other person until you actually talk to them. | Only kids throw tantrums and back out because they're too shy | or too immature. Adults don't have that luxury. That's the | thrust of the author's position. | em-bee wrote: | right, but the thing is that the situation has changed. if | i am invited to a party where i don't know anyone except | the one person that invited me and then that very person | has to cancel at the last minute, i might consider not to | go. it has been said elsewhere in this thread it depends on | whether this is an opportunity for me to grow or not and | whether that benefit outweighs the cost. | glitchc wrote: | This isn't about growth but rather about social | etiquette. In this case, although your friend is the | reason you attend, it is the host who has officially | invited you to the party. Now, the invite and acceptance | are between you and the host directly and social | etiquette requires a clear communication in case of a | cancellation. | | From the host's perspective, you are still attending | until you cancel. Of course people do the social calculus | all the time and can choose to bail without notice. It's | been done for centuries, but is considered poor form in | most circumstances except emergencies. In almost all | cases a "sorry, I am unable to make it tonight," is | usually sufficient. | | Of course if the host never officially invited you in the | first place and you were simply tagging along, there is | no social obligation and you are free to do as you | please. | NoraCodes wrote: | As with so many criticisms of "technology that enables laziness," | this analysis ignores disability. Yes, it's a good thing to | communicate with your friends! However, if you have significant | social anxiety, "Tinder for bailing" could be a useful assistive | technology. (And before you say "get therapy" - yes, of course, | but that takes time and people should be able to live their lives | whether or not they meet arbitrary standards of normal behavior.) | | Largely a good article, but before you decry the plastic widget | that holds the book open, consider that some people are missing a | finger. | mitchdoogle wrote: | I think she touches on this point a bit with this paragraph: | | "Technology babies us all the time. "Never talk to a wage | worker again!" the embarrassing Seamless ads promise in so many | words. "Everything you could dream of without leaving your | apartment! Community without communing with a single soul!" | Putting aside the marginal good these apps do for people who | rely on them, their ads are clearly focused on a capable, | upper-middle class that's learned to take its neuroticism a | little too seriously. They exploit what probably started as | compassion-driven conversation about burnout into a recursive | push for comfort at all costs. When we stretch that ethic to | its limits, we make simple things like taking a phone call or | being honest with a friend into something much scarier than | they actually are." | munificent wrote: | I think the author of this post would likely respond by noting | that people with disabilities are not babies and can maturely | handle that an article decrying an app doesn't necessarily | apply to them and is not trying to rob them of an assistive | tool. | NoraCodes wrote: | > is not trying to rob them of an assistive tool. | | The first anecdote in a post is about the author deciding not | to build something that could be a useful accessibility tool, | specifically because she sees it as a net negative - which | might not be how she would think about it if she'd included | people with disabilities in her analysis. | | Of course, this is not the end of the world; but there are | cases where this kind of thinking could be much worse. "We | won't put in an elevator - people should be okay with the | discomfort of climbing the stairs." In fact, people did that | so much that we had to pass the ADA to stop it! | | I am reminded of https://imgur.com/a4p4KLa. | munificent wrote: | As someone who is currently in therapy for social anxiety, | I think it is quite a stretch to equate an app that helps | people ghost each other without feeling bad with elevators | for people who can't physically climb stairs. | NoraCodes wrote: | I wasn't equating them; I explicitly said that the latter | was much worse. | hbn wrote: | How many people are experiencing day-to-day anxiety /because/ | they were enabled to avoid social interactions for so many | years through apps and services like this? | | If the plastic widget for holding books open is occasionally | lopping off fingers so you need to use it more, it might be | worth decrying. | NoraCodes wrote: | > How many people experiencing day-to-day anxiety /because/ | they were enabled to avoid social interactions for so many | years because of apps and services like this? | | That's a great question! I would love to see some data on | this, but until I do, I don't really see any reason to | believe this. Anxiety disorders are not a new phenomenon. | mattcwilson wrote: | https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journa | l... | | > Recent accounts suggest that levels of social anxiety may | be rising. Studies have indicated that greater social media | usage, increased digital connectivity and visibility, and | more options for non-face-to-face communication are | associated with higher levels of social anxiety [32-35]. | The mechanism underpinning these associations remains | unclear, though studies have suggested individuals with | social anxiety favour the relative 'safety' of online | interactions [32, 36]. However, some have suggested that | such distanced interactions such as via social media may | displace some face to face relationships, as individuals | experience greater control and enjoyment online, in turn | disrupting social cohesion and leading to social isolation | [37, 38]. For young people, at a time when the development | of social relations is critical, the perceived safety of | social interactions that take place at a distance may lead | some to a spiral of withdrawal, where the prospect of | normal social interactions becomes ever more challenging. | shakezula wrote: | Honestly, I think a large part of my peer's (I'm solidly | millennial) social anxiety stems from never having to deal | with a lot of uncomfortable situations. | | I'm old enough that I remember a chunk of life pre-internet. | Having to use corded the phone to call hang out with your | friends, having to talk to parents and strangers to get a | hold of your friends, calling a date to have their parent | answer, having to knock on doors for church, etc... all built | me up to have basically no qualms with talking to strangers, | but certain younger close friends of mine can't answer the | phone for the food delivery to give them the door code to | their apartment. | | It blows my mind sometimes, but I genuinely do consider it a | consequence of technology enabling them to avoid doing those | things regularly. | basisword wrote: | >> As with so many criticisms of "technology that enables | laziness," this analysis ignores disability. Yes, it's a good | thing to communicate with your friends! However, if you have | significant social anxiety, "Tinder for bailing" could be a | useful assistive technology. (And before you say "get therapy" | - yes, of course, but that takes time and people should be able | to live their lives whether or not they meet arbitrary | standards of normal behavior.) | | As someone who has done the therapy I can tell you that that | app, while it may help you in the short term, is only going to | make things so so so much worse in the long term - to the point | where you can't live your life anymore. Medicating social | anxiety with avoidance is similar to medicating pain with | drugs. It just gets worse and worse until it's worse than you | ever imagined. Every time you don't avoid something you're | taking a step in the right direction. If possible I'd highly | recommend therapy :) | NoraCodes wrote: | > Medicating social anxiety with avoidance is similar to | medicating pain with drugs. It just gets worse and worse | until it's worse than you ever imagined. | | The implication here is that there is always an alternative | to medicating pain with drugs. There often isn't - other than | letting the patient be in horrible pain forever. I'd argue | that this is true for many kinds of clinical anxiety, too. | basisword wrote: | Good point, I shouldn't make assumptions. However I think | that making these options so easy (via an app) will have a | net negative effect on society. | NoraCodes wrote: | I don't know that it would be so easy, tbh! Using this | effectively would require that your friends be bought in, | and would be willing to use the app. That in and of | itself would likely require some difficult conversations. | LordDragonfang wrote: | While I broadly agree, I would like to point out that there | are plenty of people that successfully manage chronic pain | with a static dose of painkillers, even opiates in many | cases. A particular Slate Star Codex article comes to mind. | | https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/09/16/against-against- | pseudo... | | That said, if you feel like you need figurative "pain meds" | to navigate cancelling plans, that may be indicative of a | larger issue, yes. | basisword wrote: | Yeah I guess I was thinking more of numbing mental pain | with drugs as opposed to physical pain and the spiral that | could lead to (taking more and more until you can no longer | function). In the case of anxiety for example: | | 1. Avoid work socials. 2. Hybrid working. 3. WFH. 4. Camera | off in meetings. 5. Skipping meetings entirely. | | Maybe not the best example but you've went from minor | avoidance to help you keep your job and avoid your anxiety | to major avoidance that will lead to you losing your job - | and on top of that your anxiety will have increased to a | level that recovering is much more difficult than if | tackled earlier. | slibhb wrote: | > The other day some friends and I were reminiscing about an app | idea we had years ago that would allow you to "blind cancel" on | your friends. That is, flag if you were open to canceling a plan, | which your friend would only see if they also flagged it. | Basically, it was Tinder for bailing. This was our ultimate | dream: an official, guilt-free conduit for the quiet hope that | your friend wants to cancel, too. | | Extend the logic to tinder: is tinder just a mechanism to | childishly avoid social discomfort (expressing romantic interest, | risking rejection)? | mikkergp wrote: | I think tinder serves a second purpose which is the consent | component. I think social mores around what is an acceptable | romantic environment are changing. It used to be a given you | might meet a partner at work. I think it's verging on | inappropriate given changing gender roles in the work place, | and that extends to other environments as well. You might | assume a bar or club is an acceptable environment, but lots of | people go to the club to dance and not meet someone. | jsnodlin wrote: | DantesKite wrote: | Interestingly enough, alcohol serves that function too, | especially at social gatherings. | | I can't tell you how many couples met because they drank a | little alcohol to loosen things up. | chestervonwinch wrote: | I think there's some truth to that. On the other hand, it does | allow you to connect with people that you would've likely never | incidentally crossed paths IRL to express romantic interest in | the first place. | throwaway98797 wrote: | folks no longer want to take any social risk so we _all_ engage | in maladaptive behavior | | this is leading to decay of society | dymk wrote: | Speak for yourself, I guess | ChrisMarshallNY wrote: | Reminds me a bit of the classic "Abilene Paradox," by Jerry | Harvey: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/machiavellians- | gulli... | LordDragonfang wrote: | That last paragraph is just a list of things I wish I could | express to all the friends I had with serious anxiety issues in | high school and college. Specifically this line: | | > I still have to remind myself all the time that it's not | actually helpful to hypothesize about how other people feel, or | base my decisions off a constellation of unspoken factors. | Chris2048 wrote: | I don't know. Not wanting your friends to know you don't want to | go somewhere in case you end up going isn't a bad thing, I think. | but calling people babies, isn't very mature IMHO. | lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote: | Consider that it's just an abstraction for "immaturity" and it | seems to make more sense. They're not intending to shame | someone - except perhaps themselves - for being a baby, they're | just describing behavior (albeit, vaguely) as undesirable. | Chris2048 wrote: | I understand that, and think that calling people "immature" | is much the same. | | Why is not wanting to hurt peoples feelings (or being honest | about your own) weaselling out, for example? | flatline wrote: | You are discussing a different polarity in communication: | do you just care for your own feelings or for the other | person's? That should be a factor in good communication! | | The article is discussing a different polarity: direct vs | indirect communication. Direct communication is being | honest and open about your feelings and those of others to | the best of your ability. Some people only seem capable of | indirect communication, where they say what they think the | other person wants to hear and assume their own needs | somehow come through, then are upset when the other person | takes what they say at face value! And they assume the | other person has some ulterior/hidden motive like | themselves and try to read more into it than is really | there. | crmd wrote: | Being uncomfortable communicating your feelings, especially | with people you trust, is a recipe for social anxiety and | dysfunction. | Chris2048 wrote: | but it has nothing to do with trust. You can trust | someone to keep a secret, but not to be disappointed. an | earlier post argued against assuming someone's feelings - | in that case you can't be confident what the result of | communicating your feeling are, unless you are confident | b/c you don't care. | crmd wrote: | It's all about trust. You can't develop an intimate | relationship with someone who hides their feelings. Being | fake in a misguided attempt to avoid disappointing people | is deeply unkind (and probably exhausting). | recursive wrote: | I don't think that there was ever an intent to hurt | anyone's feelings in any of the stories. | | But further, do you consider it bad to call someone | immature? Is that an intentional inconsistency? Do as I | say, not as I do? | mcphage wrote: | > Why is not wanting to hurt peoples feelings (or being | honest about your own) weaselling out | | Not wanting to hurt peoples feelings isn't weaseling out. | What _is_ weaseling out is assuming what will hurt their | feelings, and acting based on that assumption, because you | don 't want to have a conversation with someone about their | feelings. | mooreds wrote: | This was the tl;dr around that for me. | | > It only recently occurred to me that what we actually needed | was to grow up--get to know ourselves, learn to communicate. | Trying to weasel out of all that with an app is, well, | basically the entire value prop of Silicon Valley, but more | importantly antithetical to growth. Managing your social life | requires self-knowledge: Will you be in the mood next week? | Will they be mad if you cancel? Will you have fun tonight even | though you're dragging your feet? The trick to answering these | questions, I'm finding, is not technology or mind-reading or | asking for surpluses of empathy. It's to stop being a huge | baby. | | The 'baby' nomenclature, while definitely not polite, is a | striking way to describe someone who isn't confident enough in | their friendships or their self-understanding to bail on plans | with honesty. | | Also, the title of the substack is "Maybe baby" so probably | playing on that. | Chris2048 wrote: | It maybe striking, but also IMHO inaccurate. Friendships | exist in many degrees, they can't all have perfect | communication, or be journeys of self-discovery. | thewebcount wrote: | I have a tendency to some of these types of quirks, as well. I | don't know the author's situation, but the reason why I ruminated | over other people's thoughts for so long was because I was | brought up in a household of narcissists and sociopaths. I had to | step very carefully depending on what mood the people around me | were in, lest I be smacked down (usually verbally, occasionally | literally) for saying or doing something to set them off. It | becomes exhausting and as you can imagine leads to numerous | personal and social problems. They start so young that you never | have a chance to realize that it's neurotic behavior. | | That said, I don't care for the label "baby". Different people | have different skills - socially, intellectually, etc. - and not | having a particular skill or set of tools doesn't make you a | "baby". It makes you ignorant of those things. I think the label | of being avoidant was much more precise language. | ar_lan wrote: | If you don't have a Boink-It, that's undeniable proof that you | _are a baby_. | pigtailgirl wrote: | also: don't make plans you don't intend to work to keep (esp. for | the sake of being agreeable in the moment) - would much prefer | someone doesn't make a plan they don't intend to work | (emotionally or physically) to keep - learning to use yes and no | responsibly is one of the more important aspects of maturing | david927 wrote: | One of the big moments of enlightenment I've had was the | importance of emotionally detaching from the world. | | What does that mean? If you see your ex on the street, | emotionally detached is not running away from her and not running | toward her. If she says, "I'm going to Hawaii for vacation," it's | not asking which island or deep details. It's saying, "That | sounds nice." You care but you don't _really_ care. You 're | emotionally detached. | | Doing this for the whole world sounds easy but it's one of the | hardest things you can possibly do. Imagine if a million people | suddenly loved you. It's almost impossible not to feel elated. | Now imagine if a million people suddenly hated you. It's almost | equally impossible not to feel devastated. But you can do it; and | if you do it, you can unlock true happiness, true freedom. | | It's like this article says, but I don't see it about being an | adult -- it's about being truly free. | fluoridation wrote: | >If she says, "I'm going to Hawaii for vacation," it's not | asking which island or deep details. It's saying, "That sounds | nice." You care but you don't really care. You're emotionally | detached. | | That's not really "emotional detachment", though. It's not very | different from actually running away the moment you see her, | it's just less obviously cowardly. If you were really | emotionally detached you would ask for as much detail as you | could and it wouldn't affect you in the least. | | Incidentally, not asking any follow-up questions to such an | announcement is an obvious sign of disinterest. It's just a | more polite "I don't care in the least about this thing you're | telling me and I don't want to hear any more about it". | Everyone knows you're doing it because that's exactly what | _they_ say when they don 't want to hear about some topic. | david927 wrote: | It was just an example. Hopefully you can imagine your own, | better example. | fluoridation wrote: | It's the only example, and you gave it in lieu of a | definition. Do you mean the same thing I mean by "emotional | detachment", or do you mean something different? | david927 wrote: | I think you got it; I think the term is clear. It's not | having any additional emotional response beyond what you | find in an interaction with an acquaintance you see a few | times a year. There's no additional emotion. | Dylan16807 wrote: | > Doing this for the whole world sounds easy but it's one of | the hardest things you can possibly do. Imagine if a million | people suddenly loved you. It's almost impossible not to feel | elated. Now imagine if a million people suddenly hated you. | It's almost equally impossible not to feel devastated. But you | can do it; and if you do it, you can unlock true happiness, | true freedom. | | I don't understand the paragraph at all. Are you saying | detachment is like being hated? If yes I have no idea why. If | not why would it be so hard? | david927 wrote: | No, it's not "liking" being hated, it's that it doesn't | deeply disturb you. | | Imagine you and a buddy have been arguing lately but you | still go out hunting together. A bear appears out of nowhere | and charges at your friend. You shoot and miss the bear but | hit and kill your friend. There's not enough evidence to | convict you of murder, so you walk free, but literally | everyone around and whom you know thinks you murdered this | person. | | The trick is to let that wash off of you. You know you were | trying to save your friend; there's not much you can do to | change that opinion. Just let it not affect you as much as | possible. | Dylan16807 wrote: | > No, it's not "liking" being hated | | "like" not "liking" Is similar to. | | > The trick is to let that wash off of you. You know you | were trying to save your friend; there's not much you can | do to change that opinion. Just let it not affect you as | much as possible. | | I thought you were saying to reject the feelings of the | masses or something, but you're saying I shouldn't care | about what the people close to me think either? | david927 wrote: | I'm saying, "[ignore] the feelings of the masses," -- | "divorce the world." | munificent wrote: | There is a tricky balancing act here. Detachment because you | are at peace with yourself and untroubled by the vicissitudes | of the world because they don't affect who you are is good. | Detachment because you are avoiding negative feelings that you | aren't able to handle and process in a mature way isn't. | | Distinguishing those two can be very difficult and in practice | it's often a mixture. | mattgreenrocks wrote: | Agree, it's a hard thing. Question I'd pose: is the detachment | borne out of avoidance, or conserving emotional energy so you | can deploy it where it is useful? There's a difference. | | I latched onto something like this for my digital self, and it | mostly broke traditional social media for me. After all, what | does it matter if people you probably won't meet approve of | what you post? All that time and energy for what...a slightly | higher number in a database somewhere? For all the "humans are | social animals"-type platitudes that try to explain the | necessity of social media, it always ended up being a huge net | energy loss. | | But, my life is better when I am emotionally engaged in | multiple spheres simultaneously: marriage, family, work, | friends, hobbies. It's impossible for things to be going well | in every sphere at once, so you spread out your emotional | involvement among it all such that the inevitable dips are | easier to deal with. | rilezg wrote: | I might be misunderstanding. Are you saying that the secret to | true freedom/happiness is to feel no emotion and care about | nothing? | | Is this just another way of saying, "accept the world as it is | and as it happens and be content for it is kismet"? | david927 wrote: | No, you can care passionately about _more_ things if you don | 't let the world influence you. | | The philosopher Rene Girard talks about it better than I ever | could. Basically, when we reach a certain age, we start to | want to fit in with the world. This is a natural and | important process -- for a while. We'll often choose | attributes of ourselves to extol and expand, in order to fit | in with our selected strategy. We will imitate behaviors and | attributes of those in that group. And during this time, we | will find that subgroup that we're integrating with will want | certain things -- and we will in turn want those things. He | says we subconsciously start to desire what others desire | because we imitate their desires. He calls it "Mimetic | Desire." | | The problem is that as a bunch of us are all desiring the | same things, we become rivals, reaching for the same objects. | Worse, we may not ever really want what we're reaching for. | | I'm saying, "Divorce the world" -- an amicable, emotionless | divorce. Just as you moved into a group, move out. Just as | you imitated, stop. And that will free you to find your true | passions, your true desires, your true opinions, your true | self. And what's shocking is that now attaining things you | desire will often be a million times easier because everyone | isn't hunting these same things alongside you. | rilezg wrote: | Thanks, that makes more sense. The whole 'true passions, | true desires, true opinions, true self' is a bit wishy- | washy for me, but I appreciate the idea of thinking twice | about whether you actually want something, or if you are | just blindly wanting what the world has told you to want | (especially in this age of ubiquitous advertising and mass | media). | achou wrote: | This is a useful analysis of what "being an adult" means. I've | noticed that the moment when I feel like avoiding social | discomfort or potential conflict as the precise moment when I | have a choice: either be an adult and understand what I want and | communicate it, or avoid it and dislike myself and project those | feelings onto others. | | Invariably when I choose to behave like an adult I feel empowered | and ultimately at peace with myself and others in the end. If I | choose avoidance, resentment builds, and further avoidance | follows. | | The idea that avoidance behaviors can be selfish or agreeable | cuts through much self-deception. This can be helpful when I tell | myself "I'm just being nice" because it adds the proviso: "yeah, | but I'm not being an adult." Which I could see being a really | helpful inner monologue in those situations. | | This is also intimately connected to the concept of "taking | responsibility", which begins with not avoiding something which | "someone else" might deal with so you don't have to. | jsnodlin wrote: | bumby wrote: | Everything you said is true, but just to add a little nuance, I | think it's possible that avoidance can still be the correct | choice when confrontation is unhelpful. Confrontation for the | sake of confrontation is another form of indulging yourself to | avoid certain emotions, like feeling weak or disempowered. | Managing that in the height of emotion takes some real meta- | cognition. | wintermutestwin wrote: | Very true and well said. | | Ask yourself these two questions: | | 1. What do I hope to gain from this interaction? | | 2. Given #1, what course of action is most likely to achieve | your desired result? | | Confrontation is almost never the best answer for #2. | robomc wrote: | Taken too far, the "what do I hope to gain" thing can be | kind of life-shrinking (because it's not always clear what | you'll gain from interactions up front, and that lack of | clarity tracks with the quality of what you'll gain too, in | some situations) BUT it's definitely a higher-order | consideration that way too few people employ. | achou wrote: | Keep in mind that "avoidance" in this context refers to not | confronting one's own feelings and intuition. After grappling | with that feeling explicitly, avoiding overt conflict can | certainly be an adult decision to make. | philosopher1234 wrote: | Our feelings are vast and bottomless. It is impossible to | confront all of them, and for the same reason its | undesirable. Avoiding your feelings can be useful too. | lostcolony wrote: | Confronting does not mean naming and categorizing | everything. It is to introspect, and sometimes the only | takeaway is "here be dragons", and flagging that | particular terra incognita for exploration later. | ketzo wrote: | Maybe it's just personal experience, but I vehemently and | totally disagree with this. | | There has never been a time in my life where I was better | off because I ignored my feelings. Literally never. | | There are times that we should avoid _acting on_ some of | our feelings. But to do that well, and without further | self-harm, requires that you know what they are, and what | those feelings are influencing you to do. | | It is absolutely not impossible to confront all of your | feelings. Difficult, yes. Exhausting, yes. Impossible? | Absolutely not. And I really think it's doing yourself a | disservice to ever believe that you have depths that you | yourself are incapable of facing. | bumby wrote: | I think maybe the point of disagreement may be due to | "ignoring" vs. "succumbing" to one's feelings. | | I think it's almost always useful to acknowledge | emotions, but it doesn't mean you have to reactively give | in to them. It's sometimes better to view them as a car | on a railroad track that will soon be out of sight than | to hop on that car and see where it takes you. | dorkwood wrote: | I can think of a time when I was better off because I | ignored my feelings. | | I've struggled with anxiety a lot throughout my life, | especially in the lead up to something like a public | speaking engagement. For a time, I always tried to reason | through it. Why was I feeling anxious? Was it feelings of | inadequacy? Perfectionism? Not wanting to disappoint my | peers? Any attempt to interrogate those feelings and | confront them usually had the opposite effect: I'd feel | even more anxious. | | On one particular occasion I was scheduled to present to | a client at a new job, and the feelings of anxiety | started bubbling again. But, this time, I'd had enough. | None of my past strategies had ever worked, so I decided | I wasn't going to do them. I thought, if my brain is | going to flood my body with stress hormones, then it can | go right ahead. If I was anxious, then I'd deliver the | presentation anxious. I sat in the lobby and allowed the | feelings to envelope me. To my surprise, the anxiety | began to lift. | | What I eventually realized is that my anxiety in those | situations was caused by a fight or flight response. My | body was trying to spur me to action, and by pausing to | think about those anxious feelings -- where they were | coming from, how I might address them, etc. -- I wasn't | doing anything to address the response itself. When I | instead choose to ignore the feeling and do the action | regardless, it sends a signal to my brain: I've chosen to | fight. The stress response is no longer necessary, and | the feeling goes away. | asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: | I don't think the person you're responding to is | suggesting a deep meditation on the unlimited | ramifications of one's feelings at every moment. They are | talking about avoidance coping, which is pretty well- | documented | (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avoidance_coping). The | admonition is to avoid that, more often than not. It's | not the same as excessive navel gazing. | [deleted] | gotaquestion wrote: | There's a difference between being "assertive" and | "aggressive". I've had this discussion in the past on HN and | it seems people want to treat both as the same, not saying | that you are. Aggression is rarely, if ever, useful, both | directed at someone or coming from someone. | macrolocal wrote: | Assertive avoidance is often the correct response to | aggression (cf. Miyagi-Do). | neuroma wrote: | Really enjoyed reading this. | | Makes me wonder though about how we inevitably generalise | people's personal stories into rules of thumb. I'm acutely aware | how one person's journey for an antidote to their personality | dysfunctions isn't always medicine for another person. | | If Hayley has dominantly anxious-avoidant attachment style it'd | explain her ambivalence. The antidote is engage executive | regulation (to supress the anxiety and flight response), and | downplay emotional resonance. | | Common a formula as it is, could be a muddle for you or I if we | don't have her underlying predispositions. | | What does it say about me that I wrote this. | throwaway0a5e wrote: | >Makes me wonder though about how we inevitably generalise | people's personal stories into rules of thumb | | Applying rules of thumb takes a heck of a lot less mental | effort than tossing everything into a mental bucket of "other | people's experience" and then drawing on specific aspects as | relevant to the situation. | irrational wrote: | > What does it say about me that I wrote this. | | That you read a lot of self help books? | | I have zero idea what "The antidote is engage executive | regulation (to supress the anxiety and flight response), and | downplay emotional resonance." even means. | TameAntelope wrote: | When you presume a feeling for someone else, you're robbing them | of their own agency. | | You may not even be wrong, but people have a right to choose how | they feel about something, how something affects them, and the | only way to know is to talk to them about it. | | Attributing to someone a feeling or thought they themselves did | not actually have is among the worst things you can reasonably do | to someone on a daily basis without interacting with them at all. | | I worry people don't quite realize how harmful this behavior is, | or how often people do it. | | The solution, as always, is to communicate. Just speak, using | words, to the person you're inventing thoughts and feelings for. | Often you've successfully detected something (we are social | creatures, after all), but rarely are you right on the specifics. | baryphonic wrote: | I agree, with the caveat that it doesn't work with people | acting in bad faith (e.g. liars, manipulators, narcissists). In | those cases, communication often makes situations worse. Of | course bad faith should never be assumed, but once it has been | demonstrated, it's hard to forget--if someone was willing to | lie once to get what he wanted, how do I know he'd be unwilling | to lie again? | | For the vast majority of people, though, communication is | better. | mooreds wrote: | > When you presume a feeling for someone else, you're robbing | them of their own agency. | | Yes! I've done that too often, tiptoeing around things trying | to game out all the possible ramifications. It's far better to | simply try to: | | * know your needs/desires | | * communicate them | | * ask about theirs | | * handle the consequences | | Even though it is straightforward, it may not be easy. | jdmichal wrote: | This is pretty close to the basic tenets of Nonviolent | Communication: | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_Communication#Overv. | .. | nvusuvu wrote: | This book has and continues to change the way I communicate | with others. Its sitting on my desk now. Empathy and | Honesty, what a beautiful dance. | mattcwilson wrote: | And I'd add - trust them to handle the consequences of your | communication as well. | | If it turns out they're cool about it, what wonderful | feedback for you about their reliability and understanding of | you. | | If it turns out they react badly, at least it's feedback to | ask yourself whether they're worth that kind of trouble in | the future. | | If they're passive aggressive about it - well, shame on them, | and be very careful. | 0des wrote: | I've encountered this before when preemptively using they/them | for someone, that it was robbing them of their choice. I do my | best to use a name or point until a pronoun is defined to avoid | uncomfortable moments. | Broken_Hippo wrote: | This isn't the same thing: A person using they/them - when | they do not know the other person's pronoun - is someone | trying to be nice and not _misgender_ someone. In other | words, using neutral language unless confirmation of gender. | Pointing isn 't polite in all company and repeatedly using a | name isn't natural speech. | | It isn't taking someone's choice. All someone has to do is | speak up. | | Additionally: I use they/them when I'm speaking about friends | that are _not_ mutual friends. Usually, gender doesn 't | enhance the story. Same when talking about my spouse in | situations where I'm talking about myself being bisexual. | People do not need to know what sort of genitals my spouse | has, especially when it is because they want to see "how | queer I am". | zestyping wrote: | It's tricky. Not everybody _wants_ be called they/them. Not | everybody wants to be called he or she either. | | The way I try to work around this is to use "they" only | when it would not sound grammatically unusual or confusing | to do so, and otherwise rearrange the sentence to omit the | pronoun. | | As an example of the first, "That's their phone on the | table" sounds natural because singular "their" is a lot | more common than singular "they", and it's unambiguous | because a phone is typically owned by an individual. | | As an example of the second, "I met Bill yesterday and they | went to the store with me" is odd because it sounds like | "they" either doesn't agree with singular "Bill" or refers | to some earlier plural antecedent, so I'd rephrase it "I | met Bill yesterday and we went to the store together" or | something like that. | jonnycomputer wrote: | Maybe English should go the Finnish route and abandon | gendered pronouns entirely. | Chris2048 wrote: | > I worry people don't quite realize how harmful this behavior | is | | trying to predict how people feel without talking to them is | baked into thousands of years of evolution, not just for | humans, and a large amount of human communication is implied or | non-verbal as well. It's hard to think it's that harmful given | we've coevolved with it. | | BTW, would you only take this approach with close | friends/partners, or bosses/coworkers too? | TameAntelope wrote: | We're not on the savanna hunting antelope anymore, so knowing | that you're feeling, "scared of being eaten by the lion | behind me" is no longer granular enough to be useful. | em-bee wrote: | it's harmful because it when it is wrong, then it can cause a | lot of damage to the relationship. what we think others are | feeling is always based on our own feelings. the reason it | works, because most of the time, their feelings don't | actually matter. | | when bumping into a stranger, assume best intentions, | apologize or say something else appropriate and move on. who | cares what they actually think or feel. | | the closer the person is, the more communication is | warranted. | IceMetalPunk wrote: | There are _plenty_ of things we evolved to do | /believe/think/perceive that are now harmful, because the | world has changed and we haven't yet genetically evolved to | fully adapt to it yet (and, because of medical technology, we | may never do so). There are hundreds of cognitive biases that | exist because they were an evolutionary benefit, but no | longer are, or are no longer enough. | | Predicting how people feel is empathy, and that's great! But | stopping there and assuming your predictions are correct | without actually verifying them with the person first? That's | harmful. You're not too busy anymore running from lions and | hunting deer to stop and talk to a person before forming your | ideas about them. | jerry1979 wrote: | What does it look like to presume a feeling for someone else? | The reason I ask is because I have a hard time connecting how | thinking something can rob someone. | | Also, when it comes to talking about things that happen in the | mind, wouldn't hyperbolic assertions like "When you do X, | you're actually robbing X" actually rob people of their own | agency if the listener trusts the speaker as a legitimate | authority? | em-bee wrote: | the problem is when your presumed feeling leads to a | different and possibly wrong decision. | zestyping wrote: | This one is unfortunately quite common: | | "You look unhappy. You must be expecting me to do something, | and now [ I'm frustrated because I don't know what you want | from me | I'm anxious about meeting the possible expectations | I imagine you might have ]." | | If someone looks unhappy, it might not be because of you. | Even if they do have a need that you could meet, they might | not expect you to meet it. Instead of guessing, you could | simply gently ask. | TameAntelope wrote: | "Oh, they're not interested in going to this event, they | probably think it's stupid." | | "He's always talked about working more with his hands, I | probably shouldn't forward him this desk job that'd otherwise | be perfect for his career progression." | | "She'd never date a loser like me." | fluoridation wrote: | It seems like you're confusing "robbing" and "not giving | opportunities". | TameAntelope wrote: | "not giving opportunities for the expression of agency" | doesn't roll off the tongue quite the same... | jerry1979 wrote: | I agree that robbing someone of their agency sounds very | important; however, if I make assumptions about how | someone feels, that could rob them of a potential | opportunity, or it could also give them a new opportunity | depending on the nature of my assumption. | | Either way, their capacity to act (agency) remains | intact. | | The very important phrasing, in my estimation, can lead | people to neurotically question their feelings less they | "rob" someone of the capacity to act. In reality, a more | lax quip such as "assuming makes an ass out of u-&-me" | gives people more breathing room for their lapses in | judgement. | mitchdoogle wrote: | In this context, "robbing" fits just fine. Merriam- | Webster lists this as a definition of "rob": | | to deprive of something due, expected, or desired | | So to say you're "robbing someone of their agency" is the | same as saying you're "depriving them of an opportunity | to decide for themselves" | fluoridation wrote: | I think we've gotten too hung up on a specific word, but | if you really want to bring the dictionary into this, are | you saying you owe it to other people to give them as | many possibilities to decide for themselves? I would have | to disagree with that assertion. | mitchdoogle wrote: | Think about it in reverse. Suppose your boss is thinking | of increasing your responsibilities along with a | significant pay bump, but they think about it and make | the assumption that you like your current role and | wouldn't like any new responsibilities. Wouldn't you | rather make that decision yourself? | | Or suppose you're single and there's an attractive | acquaintance who is thinking of asking you on a date, but | they overhear you talking to a friend about a date you | had, and so they assume you wouldn't be interested. You | don't want to make that decision yourself? | fluoridation wrote: | Yes, I would like to make those decisions. No, I don't | think I'm owed the right to make them. To say otherwise | would be silly; if we all honored such a right we'd be | forever trapped navigating an interminable labyrinth of | negotiation and consensus-reaching. | em-bee wrote: | reaching consensus and building unity is a good way to | strengthen a community, organization or team, so no i | don't think we'd be trapped. on the contrary, everyone | would feel empowered. | | most of our problems today are coming from the fact that | people are disempowered and lack the agency to improve | the situation. | fluoridation wrote: | I misspoke. I should have said "consensus-seeking". The | state of having reached consensus is good, yes. | Perpetually seeking consensus is not. | em-bee wrote: | you need to seek consensus, in order to reach it, so i | disagree. of course, if you can't find consensus after | sufficient negotiation then that is a problem, but it | depends on the nature of the relationship and the nature | of the point in question, how much of a problem it is. | | failure to reach consensus could threaten your | relationship. | | if my boss keeps making decisions for me then i'll | eventually quit my job, because i am not willing to work | like that. and if my partner does it then it will lead to | a breakup and if it is something else, a judge might | force a consensus on us. | cowuser666 wrote: | Seems like a fragile kind of agency if people trying to | interpret you crushes it. | throwaway0a5e wrote: | > When you presume a feeling for someone else, you're robbing | them of their own agency. | | There are unfortunately heck of a lot of people out there who | (going by their actions) don't see denying people agency as a | bad thing except when it is brought up as a standalone topic. | jonnycomputer wrote: | Just an observation, n=1; when I moved to Los Angeles to go to | school, I was shocked to find that people cancelled plans on me | all the time. At first I took it personally, because that didn't | happen in the more rural town I'm from. But then I realized: its | part of the culture, and maybe its just an attribute of very | dynamic urban social networks, where an exciting new opportunity | might pop up any moment. So I learned to not get my hopes up, and | learned to cancel on others too without worrying about it over | much. | | When I moved back to rural California, people thought I'd become | a jerk. Took me a while to shift back. | gernb wrote: | Grew up in LA. Never had people flake. My guess is via random | variation, some people get unlucky, have a few people flake, | and assume it's the cultural norm. You can insert "people from | ____ are flaky" and find complaints about pretty much anywhere. | | Common experience for me, rural stores closing 15 to 30mins | early (so from my pov as a customer, flaky, by not being where | they said they'd be) | mdoms wrote: | This must be a cultural thing because it's the rudest thing I | could imagine! Agreeing to a plan is a commitment. The other | people involved (who have also committed) rely on you doing | your best to honour your commitment - who knows how their plans | would have been different had you not committed in advance. | nlh wrote: | I'll affirm and agree with the sibling comments here: I know | lots of people who live in / spent time in LA and they report | the same thing -- that lots of people there are just flakey on | plans. | | I don't think the fact that lots of people do it makes it OK in | any way whatsoever. If the culture is to be rude and flakey, | you don't have to conform to that, and you don't have to accept | that from others. I'm friends with some people in LA and we all | know that flaking on plans is a no-no regardless of what city | we're in / from. | mhb wrote: | _part of the culture_ | | Nah. They're assholes. | jonnycomputer wrote: | If its understood that this is the norm, then expectations | adjust to match. Maybe you start overbooking your social | calendar as well. | mhb wrote: | And then you're surprised when you can't buy a TV without | built-in ads that sends back telemetry about what you | watch. | postingposts wrote: | robertlagrant wrote: | One good lesson I've learned is to prioritise making plans with | the right people. | | In this case the right people are those who don't think "plan" | and "current best option" are synonyms. | erdos4d wrote: | Also n=1, but a buddy of mine from the east coast lived in LA | for 7 years, told me the people there were the most selfish and | fake bunch he had ever met. He said he never made a real friend | in the entire time he was there, and that was a major reason he | moved back east. I think you just ran into a bunch of assholes. | allturtles wrote: | IMO cancelling plans on people because 'something better came | up' is rude and selfish. I just stop being friends with people | like that. | | e.g. I had someone cancel plans made weeks ahead to meet up | with me and my family at the last minute because they got | invited to go skiing (this is in an area near many ski resorts, | it was not a once in a lifetime opportunity). I just lost | interest in meeting up with that person again. | | I similarly dislike dealing with people who "keep their options | open" by refusing to commit to plans until the last minute | (e.g. RSVP-ing to a birthday party invite the night before). | adewinter wrote: | I generally agree with your sentiment but do also think there | is value in some degree of flexibility and recognizing some | plans have more significance than other. | | E.g. if the friend bailed on a coffee break instead of a | weeks-in-advance-vacation-plan it would be much less of a big | deal (maybe not even worth nuking the friendship over?). | Either way, situations like that do call for evaluating how | important that person is in your life and (down)ranking them | accordingly. Everyone has some fair-weather friends. | anarticle wrote: | There's flexibility and then there are repeat offenders. In | a more detailed look, last minute cancel is the worst. | | I have moved the fair weather friends to group invites, and | they either come or don't. They torpedo so many plans, it's | not worth making the changes anymore. | simoneau wrote: | Barry Sobel made hay of this aspect of LA culture back in 1992: | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLf3EaDEf68 I'm amazed this has | been bouncing around in my head for 30 years, and equally | amazed I could instantly pull this up with a Google search. | jonnycomputer wrote: | Wow! Thanks for pointing that clip out. So, not just me. (: | mtalantikite wrote: | As a New Yorker, I find the social culture out in LA to be | super flaky and pretty annoying. People are non-committal, or | cancel, or complain that you're staying in an inconvenient | neighborhood for them to see you in. I blame it partially on | the physical landscape of the place, just a bunch of suburbs | smashed together trying to pretend to be a single city. | | In NYC people might show up late, but generally I find New | Yorkers to be good at keeping plans and the city lends itself | to spontaneity. In LA if the restaurant in the strip mall you | tried to go to is full, it means driving to another strip mall | and interrupting the flow of the night. In the city you can | just walk down the block and change your plans on the fly. In | LA I've had friends cancel plans to later find out they got an | invite to some famous person's house. In New York, you'll | likely end up getting invited along because who cares if you | were in a movie. | asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: | As a relatively new New Yorker (I've been here for five | years) I agree with your assessment. New Yorkers commit to | engagements and follow through, in my experience. I've had | new acquaintances here follow through at a higher rate than | old friends back in California. It is one of the things I | like most about the city. | asdff wrote: | If you think LA is just strip malls you've never been to LA. | Plenty of walkable areas. | mtalantikite wrote: | For sure, each suburb has it's own sort of "downtown" area | in LA. But just because you can sort of walk around some | parts of LA doesn't make it a place where spontaneity can | thrive. As soon as you throw necessitating a car into the | mix you lose that. | bsder wrote: | > People are non-committal, or cancel, or complain that | you're staying in an inconvenient neighborhood for them to | see you in. I blame it partially on the physical landscape of | the place, just a bunch of suburbs smashed together trying to | pretend to be a single city. | | 1) No, it's just LA flakiness. It's all about being _seen_ | dontcha know. | | My weird story about this. I was at a Little Barrie concert. | Of course, there is a band before and a band after. We're | there up front listening to the first band--Auditorium | (Spencer Berger, his brother, and someone else) who were | really good. There's the two of us at a bar table like 4 feet | from the band, and something like 4 other people. 6 people | total. We talk to the band (awesome dudes) afterward. | | And, then, suddenly, it's like a hipster sea flows in. Skinny | corduroy jeans everywhere. Snaps and flashes everywhere. I | had words with the corduroy boys who thought they were going | to be annoying as fuck in front of us. Uh, no, we understand | that you're going to get a little riled up but you're _NOT_ | going to have your phone flash in my face the entire concert | (I love the fact that Johnny Marr (separate concert) will | call these douchebags out in the middle of a concert and | _chuck them out_ if they don 't stop.). That can fuck right | off--fortunately, I'm huge and make a very nice wall so they | can get a nice picture of my back or they can move. | | Little Barrie takes the stage about 5 minutes later--awesome | _super_ high energy show. And, then, suddenly, the hipster | sea flows out. | | And there's 6 people in the bar again for the band afterward. | We felt so sorry for them. It's one thing to be the opening | band and not have people but its another thing to be the | closing band and _watch everybody leave_ before you even hit | the stage. | | That's LA. | | 2) However, part of it is LA traffic. Your median appearance | time is -20 minutes. Your variance is +15 to -Infinity. | | If there is an accident between me and you that's going to | make me 2 hours late, I'm not coming. I'll text you and tell | you why, but I'm not coming unless you are a _very_ close | friend. | schrectacular wrote: | It feels to me like your initial intuition was right - they are | being jerks/babies and they aren't respecting the decisions | their past selves have made. | | I went through a phase of tongue-in-cheek "quantum planning", | wherin I would give my friends a percentage on any plan I was | invited to. So if I was asked to dinner I might just say "60%". | Needless to say this didn't go down very well with people. | | There is a value to your word, and yes, it is more prevalent in | closer-knit communities than in bigger cities, but I think | that's because the cost of ditching a "friend" in a big city is | much lower - after all there a plenty more potential friends to | be had. But in my opinion someone who habitually breaks plans | is giving a clear indication that they don't value their word | and don't value the person they break plans with. | nlh wrote: | BTW I kinda love your quantum planning approach. It's honest | and accurate! If you're 50/50 on going to something, be | transparent and tell others that. If they don't like it, | that's on them, not you. | alar44 wrote: | But that's not how planning works. I want to know how many | people to expect. I want to know if you're coming or not so | I can plan accordingly. If someone just said 50/50 without | any kind of reasoning or explanation, I'd say OK forget | about it then. | Spinnaker_ wrote: | It's terrible behaviour. Flip it around: | | "Hey, would you like to come to a dinner party at my house | on Saturday. There's a 50/50 chance that I'll turn you away | at the door." | | Don't make your indecisiveness other people's burden. | mgkimsal wrote: | Might be something to do with LA (and possibly other large | urban/metro areas) but possibly something more to do with | 'school'. Even at a university level, people are still kids | or young adults, don't have many connections, don't really | understand the impact of their actions, reputation, etc. ) I | saw this sort of "yeah/maybe/cancel" behaviour amongst some | portion of peers back in my university days, but even then, | it wasn't everyone, or even most people in my circles. It was | known poor behaviour then. We tolerated things a bit more | because... no mobile phones, no email, etc. If you weren't | there, you weren't there, but often didn't have a good way to | let someone know you had to cancel ahead of time (but you'd | check your answering machine timestamp to verify!). | jonnycomputer wrote: | You might be right about that. I left LA after graduating. | madrox wrote: | This was true of my life in SF as well post college. I | suspect it's universal of life for young single people in | cities. | | Looking back, if I had to diagnose it, I'd say it had to do | with a compulsion to stay busy coupled with overcommitting | to the point of social burnout. Kinda like how children get | cranky when they don't get their nap but don't believe | they're tired until they fall over. | Dragonai wrote: | > I went through a phase of tongue-in-cheek "quantum | planning", wherin I would give my friends a percentage on any | plan I was invited to. So if I was asked to dinner I might | just say "60%". Needless to say this didn't go down very well | with people. | | This is hilarious. I do think it's generally a good idea to | communicate hesitation or any degree of unwillingness, I'm | just laughing at how you convey it with this approach. | deckard1 wrote: | > Los Angeles [...] people cancelled plans on me all the time | | Traffic. It's because of traffic and sprawl. | | LA is massive[1]. If you lived in Manhattan and made plans with | people living in Queens or Brooklyn or East Rutherford, you | would expect them to flake just as much as people living in LA. | If I only make plans with people in Santa Monica and I live in | Santa Monica, they will probably show up. | | The reality is that in LA you do not have subways that go | everywhere. You also do not walk. So you interact with people | that mostly got to that location via freeway and probably live | at least 30 minutes away. Plans sound nice and people like to | be agreeable, so they will say "sure, I might make it." And | usually you do not get a strong yes. It's always a maybe. | Because when the event rolls around, you're stuck deciding | whether you feel like getting into the car and driving a good | hour in heavy traffic or not. It's not because people are | dicks, like everyone is claiming. It's because the city wears | on you. Distance is measured in time, not miles in LA. | | Also, parking. If you live in WeHo, KTown, DTLA, or Santa | Monica and you're asking people to find parking, be prepared | for lots of canceled plans. No one likes circling the streets | for 20 minutes to find parking. | | [1] https://www.welikela.com/how-big-is-los-angeles/ | ZephyrBlu wrote: | Is this like you cancel 30min before, or days in advance? | Either way it would be annoying but the former moreso. | librish wrote: | The post frames being avoidant as always being about not hurting | someone else's feelings and I think that's almost never the case. | | It's usually juggling: | | - As a rule I usually end up happy I went to things in hindsight, | even if I don't want to in the moment | | - Empirically, canceling even once on someone significantly | reduced the odds of plans being remade | | - I want to see myself as the type of person who doesn't cancel | plans | s1artibartfast wrote: | I think the point is to own your preference either way. Don't | lie to yourself or lie to them. This reduces cognitive | dissonance and anxiety. | | If you go, don't drag your feet and tell yourself it is for | them. If you cancel, don't lie and make up excuses. | pristineshatter wrote: | I was taught at a young age to always do what you first agreed to | even if a better opportunity comes up. It has a few exceptions | but as a heuristic I think everyone would benefit from using it. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-04-04 23:00 UTC)