[HN Gopher] My attempted cult recruitment ___________________________________________________________________ My attempted cult recruitment Author : ssklash Score : 128 points Date : 2022-04-05 20:21 UTC (2 hours ago) (HTM) web link (dynomight.net) (TXT) w3m dump (dynomight.net) | TuringTest wrote: | _> Isn't that... pretty much exactly what my friends from the | cafe did? How do you draw the line between "sensibly taking into | account how real people react" and "manipulative dark patterns to | literally get people to join your cult"? Perhaps there is no | clear boundary._ | | I find the final questions interesting... bc for me, it is | _obvious_ that there is no clear-cut line, just degrees on a | continuum which is healthy on one side and toxic at the other | extreme. | | Human attention is the ultimate currency - we literally spend all | of our conscious time allocating it to different uses at a | constant rate, and _anything_ that we do to catch the attention | of others is asking them to divert part of that use towards | ourselves for a benefit. | | For me, it is a moral duty to make sure that any such interaction | is geared towards producing a win-win situation. This is why I | consider intrusive advertising to be morally abhorrent - not just | for being annoying, but because it is taking away our most | valuable resource from us, without even asking for permission. | Advertising should be confined to appear on limited, pre-agreed | channels where you don't mind finding the occasional relevant ad. | | In the near future I expect that personal attention managers will | supplant the dreadful Skinner boxes that social networks have | been built on, and instead provide applications that serve our | interests - not those from an outsider. | | Now I have this little private group to discuss this kind of | things, wouldn't you be interested in joining? ;-) | jimmy2020 wrote: | How did you discover that they were part of a cult? They just | invited you to a group discussion and you didn't go to know if | it's a really cult or just a bunch of people meeting and making | new friends. | BlueTemplar wrote: | > How do you draw the line between "sensibly taking into account | how real people react" and "manipulative dark patterns to | literally get people to join your cult"? Perhaps there is no | clear boundary. | | Hmmm, reminds me of the spectrum of the "Pickup Artist" tricks... | trentgreene wrote: | "Look. We're not going to beat around the bush" during the | _fourth_ meeting made me chuckle | NoraCodes wrote: | Reminds me of the time that I made the mistake of talking to some | Midwest Worker's Association folks. Never, ever give a Communist | your phone number unless they tell you what org they're | recruiting for first. Those people are _persistent_. | analog31 wrote: | An amusing factoid is that they always come in two's, so one of | them can squeal on the other if they go off script. | mc4ndr3 wrote: | Many horrors of the world emerge directly from the belief that | one owns the one true secret to happiness. The more banal reality | that there are many enjoyable ways to live, doesn't attract | followers. | Mizza wrote: | I lived in Berkeley, where there are still loads of little cults | popping up, so this sort of thing happens fairly often. | | I knew somebody who was a pretty seasoned cult member and she | explained to me that apparently there is a lot of competition | between cults to recruit and poach high performing zealots, just | like headhunters in tech. | rdtwo wrote: | How do they do it? Are there different benefits tiers and stock | options, | buescher wrote: | One of the great lines from the Conan the Barbarian film | (1982): "Two or three years ago it was just another snake cult" | reiichiroh wrote: | Sounds like MLM which is also sometimes part of a cult too | (Amway) | walrus01 wrote: | > They wanted to have sex with me. | | > They wanted me to join their religion. | | based on what I know of "new age" cults these two things are not | always mutually exclusive | | ask anyone from an older generation who lived through the late | 1960s/early 1970s as a young adult... | | in the modern era I'd wager there's some degree of venn diagram | overlap between MLM recruitment and "open relationship" people | too | Ansil849 wrote: | The title is inaccurate. There is nothing in here about "cult | recruitment", more just the author not being comfortable with the | vibe someone was giving off. Which is fine, but it's a far cry | from "cult". | vorpalhex wrote: | Unless you know your internal sense of "things being off" is | wrong, listen to it. | | Often times we pick up on subtle cues before we consciously | process them. | | Your evaluations as someone present override what your non- | present friends think based off your verbal accounting. | metadat wrote: | +1 for "Trust your gut". | | Don't ignore it. | rdtwo wrote: | Your gut can be wrong especially if you are a low trust | person. I've had a lot of times where people did something | nice or did something I would never do and I was suspicious | but ultimately it turned out good for me. Unexpected human | kindness sets off my alarm bells every time, but it's still a | good thing | wolverine876 wrote: | Take it as a signal of something, but certainly don't take it | at face value. Apply your intellectual abilities to identifying | the origin of that signal. Maybe they just remind you of | someone or something; maybe they unwittingly struck a nerve; | etc. | [deleted] | tomcam wrote: | > Still, what I really wanted was to get back to work. It felt | rude to say that outright, and they didn't seem to notice how my | eyes kept drifting back to my notebook. | | This is very hard for some people (I am not being facetious | here), but cult weirdos or not, it's really important to be able | to say something like "Thanks for chatting but I'm going to work | now." No apology is necessary. Nothing equivocal in the words | they can grab onto and argue with. No lying, polite or or | otherwise. | | You may need to practice this in the shower or the car. You may | need to practice it on people even when you don't necessarily | need to go. But you need to practice it if you are a born and | trained people pleaser like me. | | I regard not being able to do so as something close to life- | threatening, because when you are raised to put other people's | interests before your own, you can spiral into incredible | depression and self abuse. | thr0wawayf00 wrote: | > Again, I was tempted to cut off contact, but I asked some | friends and again they all said I was insane and imagining | things. Determined to prove that I was capable of normal human | interaction, I carried on. | | It sounds to me like the author approached these interactions | from a place of insecurity, which is exactly what ultra- | manipulative types look for in a target. If you don't have a | clear idea of what someone wants from you when they ask for your | time, it's on you to speak up for yourself and get that clarity. | You don't have anything to prove by deciding to continue talking | to people that don't seem interested in developing a genuine | relationship. | | > But they walked into that cafe, looked around, and decided I | was the easy prey. | | Given that the author agreed to meet with them four times with an | open mind, I'd say that the recruiters found a pretty good | target, even if it was ultimately fruitless. | gjvc wrote: | This is a good set of observations. Do not act from a position | of weakness. Do not take a job from a position of weakness. Do | not embark on a new relationship from a position of weakness. | Sadly, in such a position we are unable to see that we are, or | we believe that whatever opportunity in front of us in the | moment is the only one we will likely get. The mind plays | tricks. | | Yes I speak from experience, but I'm better now :-) | bobthechef wrote: | mquander wrote: | > But here's an uncomfortable analogy: I've talked before about | how when I first wrote about ultrasonic humidifiers, everyone | dismissed the argument for "nonsense" reasons, like not having | any citations. Eventually, I realized I could change my argument | to avoid that reaction: I was "calmer" and put the citations | earlier. Most importantly, I knew that if I clearly stated my | thesis early on, would dismiss my article without reading it. So | instead I let my claims appear gradually. (I'm not stating that | thesis here, either, for the same reason.) Isn't that... pretty | much exactly what my friends from the cafe did? How do you draw | the line between "sensibly taking into account how real people | react" and "manipulative dark patterns to literally get people to | join your cult"? Perhaps there is no clear boundary. | | The ethical thing to do is whatever you think helps other people. | If you think people reading your article are trying to learn | true, useful things about humidifiers, it's good to write the | article in whatever way is conducive to that. If instead you | wrote it in a way designed to make you look the best, or to sell | humidifiers, that would be a problem. | Geekette wrote: | Sounds like OP should: | | Practice enforcing boundaries: If what you really want is to get | to work, then there's nothing rude in signalling likewise (e.g. | by turning back to your laptop) or saying so directly. What is | rude is people who ignore such cues and continue to try talking | to you. | | Listen to intuition: If something/someone feels slightly off | (even if you can't articulate precisely what/how), then feel free | to distance yourself immediately. You can later ruminate on why | at your own convenience. | | Recognize you don't need to justify feeling disinterest in or | even active dislike of someone on sight. They might even be | perfectly good people but if you're not drawn to engage, then | that's your prerogative. You certainly don't need to prove or | disprove their decency/motives by continuing to engage. | theogravity wrote: | This tactic is pretty common to get you into a possible MLM | scheme. It happened twice to me, and once to my wife. They'll | strike up a conversation with you while shopping by commenting on | a nice article of clothing or something about you, which leads | into a convo about where you work, etc. | | They're so personable that you're thinking oh nice, I have a new | friend and agree to have coffee. Then the second steps and on as | the author mentions happens where they start to ask personal | questions like if you're happy in life, what would it be like to | not have any debt, retire early, etc. | | This all happens over two-three meetings where they then start to | talk about they have a group or mentor they work with that can | get you going with your life goals. | | We never made it into the actual meet the group / mentor part as | we knew at this point something felt scammy about it and broke | off contact after that. | MiddleEndian wrote: | I had a guy do something similar to me. He was hanging out with | some of my friends and shared the last name of two brothers we | knew, so I figured he was their cousin or something. | | Eventually he invited me out to some fancy bar with the secret | intention of trying to get me to invest in his wacky financial | bullshit, which was immediately obvious after about five | minutes of conversation. He kept asking about my investments | and I kept giving him completely contradictory answers as he | kept buying me drinks, pretending to agree with me, and telling | me about some "zero risk" opportunities. Eventually when he | started trying to press me for a more direct answer, I was like | "nah not interested" and left, got a free meal out of it on top | of the free drinks lol. | | Later I brought up the experience to a couple of my friends who | were around when I met him and they weren't sure who he was | either, apparently he was unrelated to the other guys. Never | saw him again. | sammalloy wrote: | He was a con man. Watch "Better Call Saul". They have several | episodes in the series featuring this exact con. | MiddleEndian wrote: | He was for sure. I'll always wonder if he noticed I was | deliberately answering his questions inconsistently or just | thought I was a massively confused mark. | | I'm part of the way through Better Call Saul, so I'm sure | I'll run into it eventually. | cf100clunk wrote: | Another tactic they'll try is to get to you as a captive | audience, such as on a ferry, bus ride, in an airport waiting | area during a long layover, etc. If they're on the same | vacation package you'll need to be firm about avoiding them. | mortenjorck wrote: | I once had someone I knew from college reach out a couple of | years after we'd graduated with the premise of catching up and | talking about "some stuff he was working on." I had no prior | knowledge of MLM, but only a few minutes into our conversation, | it was immediately clear to me that he was using some kind of | rehearsed language, and my skepticism was raised. | | At some point, it segued into talk of financial independence | and envisioning what that would look like for me, and it was | suddenly clear to me what the psychological intent of the | exercise was. I politely heard him out, suggested I'd get back | to him once I'd had some time to think it over, and did so the | next day, obviously declining. | | I hope he got back on the right track. | moab9 wrote: | that's why it's best to flip the script and demand that they | join _your_ cult on the first meeting. Offer a free haircut if | they balk. | nonrandomstring wrote: | There's a ton of wisdom in this. Seriously. Humour is a | social lubricant and barometer/test signal. | | To the OP: Interesting and enjoyable story. You already said | your gut instinct alarm bells were set to red alert, but you | were not following them. Why? What did you hope get out of | this interaction that let it go to four rounds? There's one | phrase that sticks out from a training on social engineering | we had here recently - "you can't con an honest person". And | that means a person who is honest with themself. All this | time you are thinking about "what did they want?" Maybe the | question you should be asking is what did _I_ want? To get | back to work. But you didn 't. | | If the answer is really "nothing" then a genuine friendship | might be in the offing. Otherwise, one or both of you is | playing a game. Test that by pushing away - not just politely | playing within the polite parameters of normalcy - a good con | artist will already have those exists mapped out. Chuck in an | unexpected dirty or ridiculous joke. Humour throws a swerve- | ball that should reset the power relationship. If you get | back "psychoanalysis" instead of a belly laugh, take a walk. | lifeplusplus wrote: | I once went to discuss "business opportunity" with someone, | sounded odd but I was fresh freelancer and would take any work. | Right away I knew it was about me and business was mlm. The guy | emphasized how we are selling vitamins. I was like great, | vitamins is indeed big biz but online world is bit of a winner | take all, how much does it cost and then asked him to search | similar product on Amazon. Behold half the price. Enjoyed | watching him fold and act dumb | colechristensen wrote: | I went to one of the MLM get-you-hooked events in a hotel | ballroom. I knew what it was and was just curious what it would | look like and an old high school classmate was trying to loop | me in. It wasn't really cultish, just a bunch of people who | didn't really understand business trying to scam you into | selling their crap. | drawkbox wrote: | Yeah potentially an MLM, religion or cult. The initial | introduction has parallels to "flirty fishing" [1] and "love | bombing" [2] which are known cult tactics. The extreme end of | that is sexpionage but the early side of that is finding a | single male that may have some money or influence and using | that to corral them into their group, whatever that group it. | This is extremely common in espionage as well if anyone works | in highly sensitive or technical areas. | | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flirty_Fishing | | [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_bombing | kevin_thibedeau wrote: | I suspect a TLA did this to me during a background | investigation. A woman (as far as I knew) divulged she was | Iranian and solicited my opinion. | walrus01 wrote: | Did you submit a SF-86 to the OPM and were in the process | of going through the formal background investigation at | that time? | kevin_thibedeau wrote: | This was before the OPM breach. | xur17 wrote: | What is TLA? | ocdtrekkie wrote: | Three letter acronym. Aka, CIA, FBI, NSA, etc. | alx__ wrote: | I got sucked into a cult-like church in my 20s. It's like a | drug when you're feeling down in life. I'm more attuned to this | level of bullshit now. But not everyone is which is why these | tactics work. | | I'll still engage if a stranger talks to me and try to be | affable but will maintain a healthy level of distrust. Because | sometimes people just like to chat with a stranger in hopes of | friendship. Have a friend who made friends with the lead singer | of a somewhat popular indie band. Didn't even know who he was | until after several months of hanging out :D | damontal wrote: | My assumption based on experience is that any stranger who | strikes up a conversation with me is either mentally unstable | or is looking to get something from me. | recuter wrote: | You're not wrong, especially if you live in NYC or most of | California. But this is a cultural thing. | | Roberto Benigni type people are real, they might just not be | around where you live. Consider moving. Whether you move away | or towards where these sort of characters congregate is of | course entirely up to you. | | If you would like to know which places to seek out/avoid feel | free to chime in. | | P.S. - Please don't go to Rome and expect it to be filled | with Benignis. | fellowniusmonk wrote: | Best part about Austin outdoor culture is the random | friendly conversations, met a dude who founded arcade fire | like 6 months ago just because we we're talking about | places to eat. | | It's just part of Austin's hippy music fest heritage and is | the best part. | Nextgrid wrote: | > If you would like to know which places to seek out/avoid | feel free to chime in. | | Do you have a group where you meet up to discuss this kind | of stuff privately? /s | borski wrote: | I've had more serendipitous and pleasant conversations in | NYC and CA (both places I've lived) than anywhere else. :) | | It's not limited to Austin or the south. :) | tomcam wrote: | Yes. I have found people in New York City to be generally | enjoyable and willing to help. The same was true in | Southern California, where I lived for years. My Chinese | wife was blown away at how helpful Americans tend to be. | samuellavoie90 wrote: | In the U.S., its part of their culture that striking up a | conversation with a total stranger is normal. It just looks | weird to the rest of the world, but I think it works out in | their favor. | [deleted] | positus wrote: | That sounds like a miserable way to live. Do you have the | same assumptions when others engage you in conversation over | the internet, or is it only in person? | mise_en_place wrote: | On the internet I would be even more wary, as anonymity or | pseudo anonymity allows degenerates you would normally | never interact with to grace your life with their presence. | | Some of the people I have met online make the two wackos | the author met look like saints in comparison. | dharmab wrote: | This might be a regional/cultural difference. In my city in | a flyover state, any stranger who tries to talk to you | beyond small talk is almost certainly going to try to sell | you something. (Obviously, outside of socialization | contexts such as bars, clubs, meetups, etc) | SketchySeaBeast wrote: | Nice try cultist! | damontal wrote: | Only in person. I live in a major US city. When I was | younger I would freely engage anyone who spoke with me. But | I found myself in situations where I would be in physical | danger sometimes being screamed at sometimes threatened | after what began as a seemingly innocuous interaction. And | I also got sick of people trying to sell me things or get | money from me. | | I remember in my late teens some guy on the street saying | "Hey man! I like your shirt!" My Jimi Hendrix shirt? He | must like Jimi Hendrix too. So I started talking with him | and in a few minutes he was asking for money. Weeks later | I'm wearing a different shirt and I hear "Hey man! I like | your shirt!" | | Once on a commuter train a guy struck up a conversation | with me about a book I was reading. It was an interesting | conversation. We kept talking as we exited the train and | kept talking on the platform as all the other commuters | went to their cars and drove away. Now he's getting kind of | excited and raising his voice. And I'm now aware of how | large he is and how we are the only two people left at the | station. I managed to politely get out of there. | | Over and over again this kind of thing would happen until I | just made a policy to not engage. | tomcam wrote: | Man that's a depressing state of affairs. | xwdv wrote: | Most people live miserable lives, especially in this day | and age. Occasionally there are moments of joy, but they | are fleeting. | recursive wrote: | If that's really true, I'm even more privileged than I | realize. I'm rarely miserable. I thought that was pretty | normal. | fladrif wrote: | To be fair, rarely do people have an accurate grasp on | what normality is. Just the breadth of human experience | is impossible to capture much less experience and | process, not to mention the experience of people that is | never expressed (I may be having a bad week, but I | wouldn't express it, much less share it openly with | coworkers) | sammalloy wrote: | > To be fair, rarely do people have an accurate grasp on | what normality is. | | Well said. I've been thinking about this idea for a very | long time. Like another user said above, the negativity | bias has a large role to play here. I live in a small | town and talking with strangers is considered normal and | healthy. | saxonww wrote: | ...Absolutely? | | When we get unsolicited communication over phone, text, | email, IM, etc., we consider it spam. It's almost always | someone trying to get you to give money to them or their | interest group. | | As someone who spends most of their day online, it's not | hard at all to see why I might start thinking that way | about in-person communication from people I don't know. | borski wrote: | This is a bad assumption. I often do this because I'm an | extrovert and find other people interesting/fascinating, but | want nothing from you and, to my knowledge, am not mentally | unstable. :) | | To be fair, I don't lead with "have you ever done therapy?" | or "what does it mean to be alive?" haha | walrus01 wrote: | > My assumption based on experience is that any stranger who | strikes up a conversation with me is either mentally unstable | or is looking to get something from me. | | I operate under this assumption any time I'm somewhere in a | big city, unless I'm attending an event where people are | specifically mixed together and expected to talk to each | other (professional conference, etc) | | in a small town of 200-300 people/very rural area, I take a | different approach of course | woodruffw wrote: | I've also had plenty of terrible experiences with strangers | trying to talk to me. But I think it's wrong to build a | policy from that: I've _also_ had plenty of great | conversations with complete strangers, some of them in | contexts where I 'd be considered "captive" if I wasn't a | willing participant (airplanes, trains, etc.). | | IMO, serendipitous conversations are a key part of a healthy | society. Few things have as strong of a humanizing effect. | cogman10 wrote: | > Few things have as strong of a humanizing effect. | | This, unfortunately, is EXACTLY what high pressure | religions/cults/MLMs use to their advantage. | | I was a mormon missionary and one of the things we were | taught to look out for is things to humanize ourselves. | Literally "If you see toys in the yard, ask them about | their kids. Are they washing a car? Ask if you can help. | Was there a death in the family? Talk to them about mormon | heaven." etc. | | The key, here, was all about conversion. You find an | opening and then try and wedge yourself in (with the | ultimate goal of getting a new convert, because you are | "saving" them). | | Other cults are certainly worse (NEVER go to a "private" | meeting!), but it's something to realize. Cults are | successful because they try and use genuine humanizing | effects to bring in new members. | borski wrote: | You're right, but it's important not to throw the baby | out with the bathwater. | | Many people drive cars. Some people kill others with | theirs, sometimes intentionally. We should not then | assume every person driving a car is on the warpath. | tomcam wrote: | > We should not then assume every person driving a car is | on the warpath. | | So you've never been to Boston | RHSeeger wrote: | To be fair, at least some of that is the streets, not the | drivers. | | I was in Boston a while back and I came to a crossroads. | There was no stop sign, no light, nothing. I eventually | just had to... go. I got to my hotel and I asked about | it, and the concierge was like, "oh, its just like that". | I asked how people are supposed to know to stop (or not | to) and he replied, "you just know". It baffled me | because _clearly_ you don't just know.. because I was | there and I didn't know. What happens if two people just | drive through the intersection at the same time. | | I get it that crossroads exist like this in the open | nowhere. But... in a city? It was mind-boggling to me. | Plus... the street layout in Boston was done by throwing | pounds spaghetti at a wall and then trying to match the | pattern that stuck. | tomcam wrote: | All true. That and even the kindliest Bostonian suddenly | becomes a sociopath once behind the wheel. | treeman79 wrote: | I bought a nice truck in a bold color. Since then every few | days total strangers come up to me and we start talking | about trucks. | | Completely blows my mind, but they have all been super nice | people. | emerged wrote: | My neighbor approached me so often, and/or yelled from | across the street, about my 90s gas guzzler that one day | I was so frustrated I waved him off shook my head and | went inside. | | I just couldn't deal with it again and it's one of the | rudest things I've probably ever done. I know almost | nothing about cars and I really don't care about them at | all. | | He moved shortly after (hopefully unrelated lol), so | nothing more ever came of that. | tomcam wrote: | Well now I have to know what color | endgame wrote: | This is why "charity muggers" infuriate me - they're | poisoning the well for everyone else. | bavila wrote: | Context is definitely important. If I'm in a situation | where I'm obviously just trying to get some work done in a | coffee shop, I'd going to be very skeptical of a stranger | who insists on striking up a conversation with me. It's | just too pushy and frankly kind of creepy. | | However, I've also done some backpacking on the Appalachian | Trail several years ago, and it's far more socially | acceptable to start up a conversation with random people | you meet along the way. It's understood that we're all | strangers but we have a shared goal of hiking the trail, | and what else are we going to do when we stop for the night | other than chat a bit with the other people in the area? | | Had almost nothing but positive experiences speaking with | random people while hiking, except for one nutcase (trail | name was Mountain Lion) who was carrying a firearm and | disclosed to me that he was kicked out of the military for | mental health reasons (got to appreciate his honesty, | though). I made sure to put as much distance between the | two of us ASAP. Later found out he ran out of food, tried | to steal from other people, and had to get airlifted out | after getting injured. Good times. | woodruffw wrote: | Certainly; context accounts for a lot. I wouldn't wish | Mountain Lion on anyone :-) | | I think what it boils down to for me is this: the world | is full of loons. If we don't allow ourselves to be open | to spontaneous interactions, the _average_ spontaneous | interaction we have is more likely to be one involving a | loon. Those memories also tend to be more salient because | of their negativity, so we need to be intentional in | remembering all of the lesser but positive experiences we | 've had with strangers. | monksy wrote: | Or they're trying to get me to use Javascript. | xwdv wrote: | This has been my observation as well, and this is why I look | at compliments with great cynicism, and why I do not give | compliments or strike up conversations. And if I do want | something from someone, I state those intentions early so | they don't think my conversation is a ruse. | aidenn0 wrote: | Maybe this is false nostalgia, but I feel like this is more | true post smartphones than pre-smartphones. More people will | just pop out their phones and check their messages/mail/play | a game rather than talk to people around them; a fair amount | of casual interactions were bored people stuck waiting in the | same place. | wslack wrote: | This is region dependent. In the US South its normal to have | light conversations with strangers in public spaces (waiting | in line, for example). | thrownawayalre wrote: | That changes with kids fortunately. | | Parents bringing their kids to playgrounds, that have not | much to do except talking to other parents. Being at a | playground with their own kid filters out most mentally | unstable or interested parties. | | Very easy to strike conversations if kids have the same age. | Lots of opportunities for new and sane friendships, with who | you can then double-date when their kid come home to play | with yours. | TuringNYC wrote: | The sad thing is that -- this is how I met almost all my | friends. Through random conversations. I agree that random | convos at work/school are much less likely to be MLM, but I | always wonder about what i'm missing when I filter too much. | | My best friend from college -- 25 years still -- is someone I | met on line, waiting for lunch. | | I get pretty annoyed with MLM sales pitches, but I dont think | we should close ourselves off to the world with strict | policies on social interactions. | 0_____0 wrote: | How would you rate your social intuition? I would rate mine | as moderate, undermined by anxious traits, but it's typically | pretty obvious when someone is unstable/potentially dangerous | or panhandling. I live in a major US metro and somewhat | routinely talk briefly with people I encounter in a low- | stakes way. | dools wrote: | Is this article the first step in a funnel to sell more | ultrasonic humidifiers? | EamonnMR wrote: | I think the author has some sort of crank fear that they're | filling the air with bad particles. | istinetz wrote: | The author has a very well articulated and defended fear. | | They're definitely not a crank, even if they've arrived at a | wrong conclusion, which I doubt. | TechBro8615 wrote: | This was an annoyingly skillfully written piece. At numerous | points I felt I knew better than the author, only to confront my | own foolishness a few sentences later. This kept me reading while | my mind drafted the HN comment about how the author is too naive | and can't say no. But true to form, the last paragraph had me | questioning everything - was it I who was duped? | | That said, this definitely wouldn't have happened to me, given | how cold and unapproachable I am. This is great for avoiding | scams and people who want to take advantage of me. However, I | suspect such standoffishness has denied me many opportunities for | social connection. Someone like the author is more likely to | stumble into a cult, but also more likely to meet new people. So | I guess you take the good with the bad. | jozvolskyef wrote: | The author's perspective is one that I find very relatable. I | am often able to see when people are trying to take advantage | of me from a distance, but I choose to "give them the benefit | of the doubt", even though I may know that there is a very slim | chance that they actually deserve it. I do this because I am | curious. When your experience suggests that you can accurately | read people's intentions and motivations, talking to bad faith | actors becomes a fun game of figuring out what they're up to | and learning about their world. A risky one, certainly, but I | like playing. | mise_en_place wrote: | I'd say the author took a very large risk and gamble by engaging | with these types of people. Many criminals and intelligence | agencies employ the same tactic, one of them will be a very | attractive woman, and while you're distracted the male will rob | you or follow you in your car to your house. | sircastor wrote: | About 15 years ago, I was listening to a podcast that was largely | about economic philosophy and personal freedoms. High on the | libertarian views and it appealed to me at the time. I heard | about a meeting organized by the people who made that podcast and | decided to check it out. The podcast and related organization | were connected to a property investment system at the height of | the housing bubble. My wife decided to go with me. | | We met in the basement of an unfurnished house. There was an | American Flag on a free-standing pole. We said the pledge of | allegiance and I think there might have been an ambiguous prayer. | Then we watched a video of some sort by the founder of the | podcast. | | The experience was very weird. It set off my "this is weird" | alarms which made me step away from it. | | The founder eventually went to prison for running a Ponzi scheme. | | I think people very much want to belong to a group, and be told | that the way they view the world is right. And there are plenty | of people who are happy to tell you you're right and you belong | if you'll just offer yourself up to them. | smoe wrote: | I had a bunch of similar interactions like these were I grew up | and about 6 with different missionaries across Latin America. | Starting out with innocent seeming conversations slowly going | towards selling their value prop. For me the most repugnant in | most of these interactions was, how intentionally they were | fishing for very personal things that I'm worried, sad or | insecure about just so that they can then present their magical | solution for it. | rdtwo wrote: | Yeah that's usually the tell they are fishing too hard for | insecurity or major life problem that needs a solution. It's | not a problem 1 on 1 but you don't want to get stuck sparring | against multiple opponents | anyfoo wrote: | > A week later, they suggested we go to lunch again. Again, I was | tempted to cut off contact, but I asked some friends and again | they all said I was insane and imagining things. Determined to | prove that I was capable of normal human interaction, I carried | on. | | Your friends may mean well, but they may also be a bit dumb. You | really don't have to interact with people that you don't want to | if it's entirely voluntary to begin with, especially if things | feel "off". | | It's easy to claim so in a hypothetical, but I still like to | believe that had you asked me, I would have said something like | "if it feels so off, don't do it". | | This is different from being anxious over, say, ordering a pizza | over the phone (that I've seen in a few friends), where I would | recommend pushing over your anxiety, because that is almost | certainly guaranteed to be a short, professional, and, most | importantly, absolutely un-intimate conversation. | | > Determined to prove that I was capable of normal human | interaction | | Yeah, this isn't. | madrox wrote: | This story is a really great argument for "trust your gut." You | don't always need an eloquent articulation of why something is | off for it to be real. Also, no experience gets better than the | initial meet. If something feels off initially, that feeling will | never go away. | h2odragon wrote: | It does come off weird if you inquire as to people's blood type | and opinion of accidental cremation straight out before you | invite them over for a party... but it's best to be open and | honest about these things. After all, otherwise they wouldn't | know to bring a sacrifice. | lowwave wrote: | Hey if it was free, why not give it a try? | EamonnMR wrote: | "After 30 minutes or so, I realized I was never getting back to | work so I made an excuse to leave." That's an extraordinary | amount of time to put up with being interrupted. | gwbas1c wrote: | > My attempted cult recruitment | | But TFA never confirmed that it was a _cult._ Suspicious | circumstances, yes, but people who meet to discuss things | privately doesn 't mean cult. It could just mean they get very | deep into certain topics and want to pre-screen people. | | OTOH: TFA was clearly uncomfortable with this couple. He was | perfectly within his free will as an adult to discontinue the | relationship. | mulmen wrote: | Reading this in full has me feeling uneasy. I am not a social | person but I _try_ to be. I have come a long way in my adult | life. I now regularly meet people in public. Some of them become | friends. I have _never_ had an interaction like this. Sometimes I | meet people who I never see again. Sometimes we meet a few times | but it never goes anywhere. Nothing clicks. People are busy. That | feels normal. | | In these post-Covid times I have met several people who are kind | and interesting. Could easily turn into a friendship. But this | post has me doubting those interactions. That nice couple I met | at the arcade last night, what was their _agenda_? I thought they | just wanted to play pinball and meet people. Did I narrowly avoid | a death cult? Did I miss out on a threeway? | | To reach the end and learn that this post itself is self- | referential is offputting. I feel like I fell for the thing the | article claims to be about. | | This is not a domain I'll be clicking on again. | thwayunion wrote: | I'm a bit confused. Isn't it possible that they _actually were_ | lonely /bored weirdos who are bad at social boundaries and host a | (probably mind-numbingly uninteresting) discussion group? | | Don't get me wrong, I shut these sorts of people down at the | first conversation because I hate dilettante philosophy with a | passion and have a strong distaste for any hint of spiritualism. | But there are underemployed folks at all my regular coffee haunts | who are always chatting up willing patrons and will ask to | exchange numbers if someone is patient enough to engage. But | AFAICT they aren't nefarious, just bored and weird. One hocks CDs | of his bad garageband compositions, but again, he's harmless. | | How did you jump from "cringe" to "cult"? | Ansil849 wrote: | Yeah, this was my read too. There are plenty of bored and | lonely people who also fancy themselves armchair intellectuals, | who'd love to talk to you for hours. It may make them annoying | and irritating, but it doesn't make them a cult. I don't see | anything in the article that this was "attempted cult | recruitment", more just "lonely people discussion group". | BizarroLand wrote: | I would say the most likely scenario is the one where they were | attempting to get something from them. Based on the authors | account, they weren't meeting for the purpose of talking to | each other, they were using social engineering to strong-arm | the author into their group. | | It's kind of interesting knowing that if you can get a few | people to do a thing that other people will go along with it | because that seems to be the thing to do. For instance, if you | and a few other people start regularly working out in a park | there's a good chance regular passers by may ask to join in at | some point. | p1necone wrote: | Even if that was the case they were still being manipulative. | The whole "you can't talk about this stuff with other people" | shtick is pretty transparent. I don't think you can say they're | /just/ socially inept. | kelseyfrog wrote: | There is a vague conversational sense that something is off. | For me, this has occurred several times just prior to receiving | masonic handshakes. It's happened enough that I take notes | quickly afterword in order to compile a list of | keywords/phrases in order to help identify what's going on. jc, | this sounds absolutely unhinged after typing it out. | rdtwo wrote: | Yeah I've gotten this wired vibe from religious leaders. Just | a little too friendly and steering conversations into odd | areas. I try to refocus the conversation back on them as the | interesting subject and that breaks the pattern but with 2 | it's difficult. | Infernal wrote: | Well, can you help us identify these situations by sharing | some of your notes? | Trasmatta wrote: | The one thing that makes me think "possibly not a cult?" is | that they met up 4 times before the "private meeting" idea was | introduced. I feel like cults usually try to start getting you | integrated into the larger group earlier than that, especially | if you're just some rando they met at a cafe. | | Some of the other points in their interaction do heavily hint | at cult, though. Could just be a group that does recruitment | differently than I'm used to. I did missionary work in a cult | once (not going to name which group, because I don't want to | derail this thread arguing over whether this particular group | is a cult or not), and the described behaviors and conversation | topics certainly ring a bell. | cf100clunk wrote: | The author implies that those strangers set off alarm bells at | several times, and that is what is important. Giving those | strangers the benefit of the doubt would never have made that | doubt go away, from what I could tell. If they actually were | just ''lonely/bored weirdos'' the writer would still be ahead | by trusting the doubts and behaving circumspectly based on | them. | thwayunion wrote: | Given the title, I expected the story to end with positive | confirmation that the two people were in a cult. Not "and | then they invited me to join a private discussion group, I | ghosted them, the end". | | Again, I'm in material agreement that talking with weirdos is | generally a losing proposition for any number of reasons. But | I don't understand why he's so certain these people were in a | cult. They could've been in an MLM. They could've also just | been weirdos with a private discussion group. Heck, the "sex" | possibility listed at the beginning isn't even proven false. | We don't know. The story has an inconclusive ending, which is | odd given the title of the piece. | | The bait-and-switch of the title gives me the same bad vibes | that the author got from the people in the story. And the end | of the post feels... forced and perhaps even dissonant. I dig | deeper and the guy has a formula for the good life. A | personal subreddit (?!) and a substack that all appear to be | about nothing in particular? | | Does this guy want something from me or is he just a harmless | oddball who likes talking into the void / to his small | audience? Probably the latter. Most weirdos are harmless and | I'm glad they exist even if I don't want to engage with most | of them. In fact, maybe he's aware that he sometimes comes | across like this and that's why he wrote the post? And the | title is, I guess, pretty mild as far as clickbait goes. No | harm, no foul. | | It's kind of funny that I get the same vibe from him as he | got from these people. And even funnier that I'm commenting | on a post that gives me odd vibes claiming I never engage | with people who give me odd vibes :) | | In any case, I remain unconvinced that these people were | definitely recruiting for a cult. But maybe that's not even | the point of the post. | toast0 wrote: | "I don't want to belong to any club that would accept me as one | of its members." --- or something similar, Groucho Marx, maybe. | | I'm not so obviously desirable to be in a group that someone | with no social connections to me should be inviting me in. It'd | be different if the invite comes with context, but a cafe has | little context; most people eat, and a lot of people drink | coffee. | | Anyway, on the subject of cults, if you want to join a | _quality_ death cult, that 's stress free, with no social | obligations, might I suggest the Internet Death Cult of Fun, | https://deathcult.fun/ | CTDOCodebases wrote: | "What was going on here? I saw three possibilities: | | 1.They wanted to be friends. | | 2.They wanted to have sex with me. | | 3.They wanted me to join their religion." | | I would add the following to that list: | | 4. They wanted to sell me something. | | 5. All of the above. | [deleted] | chihuahua wrote: | As a man, if any female stranger ever initiates a conversation in | a cafe, I can safely assume that she has some kind of ulterior | motive. That may sound cynical or sad, but that's life. | | Thus I can shut down this kind of interaction long before I feel | obligated to meet people for brunch even though it feels awkward. | sammalloy wrote: | That hasn't been true in like forty years. Women do initiate | conversation now in modern society. | aidenn0 wrote: | That's how I met my wife? I suppose after a few kids and over a | decade of marriage, she might just be playing the _really_ long | con. | rdtwo wrote: | Lol ok. | CPLX wrote: | It was probably Landmark or Scientology I assume. Although the | "private" aspect means maybe not I guess. | phphphphp wrote: | I doubt it's Landmark, they typically lack any subtlety and | wouldn't invest that much time in someone that doesn't even | know they're Landmark. | Animats wrote: | Agreed. I had a friend who got into Landmark, and they're not | subtle. She eventually recovered, but it took years. | Religious groups and Scientology don't start out that slow. | Chabad does, but their target group is limited. | | Some kind of scam, I expect. It seems so retro for a scam. | You can scam so many people online for so little investment | that a labor-intensive scam like this seems obsolete. | TedDoesntTalk wrote: | > Chabad does | | But they also don't sucker you into giving away your money | or guilt you into doing things you don't want to do. | erdos4d wrote: | > You can scam so many people online for so little | investment | | Honestly curious, how does one do this? I hear this a lot, | but when I have tried to actually advertise legitimate | services online, the ROI is insanely bad. I can't imagine a | cult leader would get better results, so why do people | claim this is easy online? | Animats wrote: | Check out the NFT market. | | Here's the pitch deck for Bored Ape Yacht Club.[1] Aimed | at large investors, not the suckers. | | [1] https://twitter.com/LeonidasNFT/status/15050589327583 | 60064 | erdos4d wrote: | Honestly, this looks like a shitload of work. The art is | beyond me completely, I'd need capital to get that made | by competent artists. They have articles from Rolling | Stone, so I'm guessing I would need a LOT of capital to | line that up. They have half a million followers on | Twitter and Instagram, etc. This looks very much like a | high investment scam needing a medium company worth of | talent and capital to pull off. In short, this looks like | the work of a funded startup. How do you actually do this | with very few resources? | rdtwo wrote: | You don't ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-04-05 23:00 UTC)