[HN Gopher] Language of fungi derived from their electrical spik...
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       Language of fungi derived from their electrical spiking activity
        
       Author : T-A
       Score  : 168 points
       Date   : 2022-04-06 13:58 UTC (9 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (royalsocietypublishing.org)
 (TXT) w3m dump (royalsocietypublishing.org)
        
       | reality_inspctr wrote:
       | This is wild.
       | 
       | "We also construct algorithmic and Liz-Zempel complexity
       | hierarchies of fungal sentences and show that species S. commune
       | generate the most complex sentences."
       | 
       | Is this the first time a non-animal species has exhibited such
       | behavior under verifiable conditions?
        
         | AyyWS wrote:
         | The wind is talking to us. Chicago confirmed as having the most
         | talkative wind.
         | 
         | They are consuming too much of their subject matter.
        
         | idiotsecant wrote:
         | They don't appear to literally be claiming that this is a
         | language, a less click-baity title would be 'Calcium wave
         | communication in networks of fungi mycelium'. This is not a
         | newly discovered phenomenon - we've known that fungi use
         | calcium derived electrical potentials to signal the mass to do
         | things for a long time. There's no evidence this is any more
         | complex than hormonal communication in plants, just a different
         | media.
        
       | mario143 wrote:
        
       | vmoore wrote:
       | I always wondered if certain fungi reached earth via an asteroid
       | that hit earth and was from a fertile exoplanet, and somehow
       | reached here. I like the idea of panspermia[0]. I always imagined
       | psilocybin-containing mushrooms as somewhat alien and almost
       | designed to alter consciousness, as if from another planet.
       | McKenna's 'stoned ape' theory, if true, would explain much of the
       | 'missing link' problem.
       | 
       | [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panspermia
        
         | pvarangot wrote:
         | The missing link is already explained by wild discontinuities
         | in evolution, which are pretty much a given on the evolutionary
         | chain of any species on earth given for how long life that
         | evolves has been present on the planet. There's records of
         | tribes with click based languages that can arrange very
         | effective and powerful hunting squads using spears an overpower
         | even herds or packs of the most dangerous animals in their
         | regions. Yeah they look wildly different than apes, but imagine
         | what they were doing to the other kinda differently looking
         | apes that didn't understand their clicks but understood "pointy
         | stick good", and that happened for thousands of years.
         | 
         | Whole indigenous languages went exting in the late 20th century
         | in places like Bolivia or Australia and even during the 21st
         | century native languages are going extinct in California. In
         | thousands and thousands of years someone trying to re-walk
         | Darwins path may wonder were is the missing link in evolution
         | between something like Aztec and European remains found in the
         | West Coast, when there's none. Species can evolve in isolation
         | and then obliterate each other leaving a discontinuity or
         | clique within the genus, it happens all the time, and it's
         | puzzling but natural.
        
           | kuprel wrote:
           | Aztecs and European-Americans only separated about 40k years
           | ago, which is more recently than when East Asians and
           | Europeans separated. Would be confusing for future
           | civilizations to figure that one out
        
         | contingo wrote:
         | Psilocybin-producing mushrooms are widely dispersed across the
         | clade of all other true mushrooms and their genomes clearly
         | show there is no great mystery about their evolutionary history
         | or relationships to other fungi. Modern phylogenetics
         | completely discredits panspermia as an origin for particular
         | species or groups of fungi: they all share a single common
         | ancestor and they are all connected to our single Tree of Life
         | as with every other known lifeform on Earth.
        
       | rini17 wrote:
       | If we ever get viable neural interface available, I definitely
       | want to wire myself to my garden. The first thing I did on bare
       | plot was to put in rotten wood and cartons for fungi to grow.
        
       | sn00tz00t wrote:
       | Really impressive considering the setup. Would love to see them
       | grow fungi around a lattice to have input and output in a
       | controlled manner.
        
       | bitwize wrote:
       | And when we translate these fungal sentences...
       | 
       | "Juffo-Wup is the hot light in the darkness. All else is
       | unfulfilled Void."
        
       | throw1234651234 wrote:
       | I don't have anywhere near the scientific background to even
       | consider whether this is a report on "fungi are intelligent" or
       | "just some random electrical signals". If the former, it's
       | absolutely hilarious, because Terrance McKenna was possibly right
       | after all:
       | https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/evolution/stoned-ape-...
       | 
       | Of course, if this were "true" and "proven", I would imagine it
       | would be all over front-page news for every major publication.
        
         | vga805 wrote:
         | How would "intelligent" fungi have any bearing on the stoned
         | ape theory? The former seems neither necessary nor sufficient
         | for the latter.
        
           | throw1234651234 wrote:
           | You are absolutely right - the underlying premise is that
           | "fungi is intelligent, and it passes some of that
           | intelligence to the apes, when consumed". This makes no
           | sense. Just came to mind since McKenna also rants about fungi
           | networks being the largest intelligent being on the planet,
           | etc.
        
             | tazjin wrote:
             | I wouldn't state "makes no sense" about something like
             | that. For example, in sci-fi terms, psychedelic molecules
             | could be akin to a 'protomolecule' that attaches to self-
             | replicating entities and attempts to induce
             | ??consciousness??
             | 
             | We don't know any of this for sure.
        
       | xg15 wrote:
       | It's absolutely an interesting paper, but just to note: Their
       | finding is _not_ that the spike activity is a language. They just
       | propose it _might_ be a language and then derive a number of
       | statistics by treating it _like a language_ for the sake of the
       | argument.
       | 
       | ... at least that was my understanding from the abstract and
       | introduction.
        
         | dalbasal wrote:
         | Seems so.
         | 
         | Tangentially, I think it's unfortunate that "hope" can't help
         | form the frame here. I mean, it's an elephant in the room, but
         | I think it's friendly.
        
       | giantg2 wrote:
       | Wow this is really cool. I wonder if this can be harnessed to
       | charge a very small battery, which in turn can power a small LED.
       | Might be a unique variation on the potato powered light bulb
       | science fair project. I have quite a few blocks of mycelium
       | sitting around...
        
       | yosito wrote:
       | Maybe my anecdotal experience of taking mushrooms and feeling
       | like I can communicate with plants is not completely far fetched
       | nonsense.
        
       | dilippkumar wrote:
       | Book recommendation: "Entangled Life" by Merlin Sheldrake [0].
       | 
       | The author discusses the possibility of intricately connected
       | subterranean mycelium networks electrically signaling each other
       | acting as a giant nervous system. He stops himself from calling
       | it a giant brain, but admits that the possibility isn't really
       | far fetched given everything else that we know about fungi.
       | 
       | It's a fantastic book. Strong recommend.
       | 
       | [0]. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07WJ84V9B/ref=dp-kindle-
       | redirect?...
        
       | doodlebugging wrote:
       | It would be interesting to see an experiment like this run on a
       | large fungal colony in the wild like one of those huge organisms
       | that you find in old-growth forests. You may be able to fine-tune
       | your understanding of their "language" syntax and format if you
       | could deploy a grid of sensors to track a message as it spreads
       | through the organism to see how efficiently it is delivered to
       | distant parts of the colony.
       | 
       | It would also give an opportunity to see whether fungi play the
       | telephone game and how that affects those at the other end of the
       | "conversation".
       | 
       | Thanks for this article. For me it confirms the notion that all
       | things alive need a method of communication that allows them to
       | use the resources in their environments to greatest effect.
       | Whether that involves chemical signaling, electrical signaling,
       | disapproving glances, the spoken word, etc. is irrelevant. It
       | appears that no matter how deeply you dig, there is a sense of
       | community in most living things and most things find ways to work
       | together with their environments to guarantee survival. Humans
       | could probably learn a few things from their steak toppings about
       | how best to utilize the bullshit many of us find ourselves
       | wallowing in.
        
         | [deleted]
        
       | bob55 wrote:
        
       | samaman wrote:
       | Adamatzky is a GOAT in biocomputing. Hes the sort of researcher
       | who really makes me question why we spend so much money on
       | developing quantum computers and other new ways of modeling
       | biosystems when using other biosystems as analogs seems far
       | cheaper and more fruitful.
        
         | tomcat27 wrote:
         | The goal of people doing basic research in math and science is
         | not producing more economic value. They really do it just for
         | fun. If what they do happen to be useful for others outside
         | their club, great, but that's never the goal. They might twist
         | words a little to get grants. Historically, their work has been
         | useful. ;)
        
       | bognition wrote:
       | Neuro PhD here.
       | 
       | I haven't read the entire paper but this citations stands out: >
       | Fungi also exhibit trains of action-potential-like spikes,
       | detectable by intracellular and extracellular recordings
       | 
       | Action potentials are the fundamental signaling mechanism used by
       | neurons [1]. Think of them as an electrical signal that a cell
       | actively propagates. Lots of cells use electrical potentials for
       | signaling; however, most of them spread gradually or passively.
       | Action potentials on the other hand the cell actively expends
       | energy to send information quickly.
       | 
       | Really cool to see convergent biology (my personal guess) here. I
       | can only imagine what new things we're going to learn about fungi
       | and mycelium in the next few decades. In all seriousness
       | mushrooms COULD be conscious.
       | 
       | 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_potential
        
         | idiotsecant wrote:
         | mushrooms are certainly not conscious. The information conveyed
         | over the whole of the network by this mechanism is on the order
         | of bits per hour. That particular box is a little small for
         | consciousness to be hiding in. A fruit fly has more processing
         | power than a fungus, by orders of magnitude.
        
           | fjabre wrote:
           | Your statement "mushrooms are certainly not conscious" cannot
           | be proven.
           | 
           | It also makes the assumption that consciousness is something
           | we understand. This is certainly not the case. As science
           | still doesn't have a clue as to what it really is.
        
           | wonderwasp wrote:
           | I don't disagree, but couldn't consciousness play out at
           | different time scales? If an alien lived for one second but
           | its brain processed information billions of times faster than
           | ours, would they be right to consider us non-conscious?
        
             | idiotsecant wrote:
             | That's an interesting point! I suppose the definition of
             | 'consciousness' implies a certain timescale in my
             | internally unexamined definition but there's no reason that
             | need be the case!
        
               | buescher wrote:
               | If I understand your initial argument as implicitly
               | revised here, it's basically "whatever consciousness is,
               | it doesn't happen at the scale of some small number of
               | bits". But some fungi are among the largest organisms on
               | the planet. If this kind of signaling is going on within
               | them, imagine the throughput, even if the individual
               | signaling rates are low.
        
             | kadonoishi wrote:
             | I wonder if there could be conscious life inside neutron
             | stars, organized through nuclear reactions not chemical and
             | therefore going much faster.
        
               | idiotsecant wrote:
               | There is a book about this! It's Dragons Egg by R.
               | Forward and it's pretty good!
        
             | Vox_Leone wrote:
             | >>I don't disagree, but couldn't consciousness play out at
             | different time scales?
             | 
             | I think you are correct in this insight. I also think that
             | the perceived [or relative] rhythm of the passage of time
             | would have huge implications here in this case: from the
             | fungal perspective, "our" world would be "seen" at very
             | high speed, which would prevent any form of interaction. It
             | would even prevent reciprocal detection.
             | 
             | This "perceived time rate" difference could happen on an
             | astronomical scale and might contain the explanation of
             | informational paradoxes such as Fermi's.
        
           | RosanaAnaDana wrote:
           | > A fruit fly has more processing power than a fungus, by
           | orders of magnitude.
           | 
           | My laptop has several orders of processing power more than my
           | brain, whose neurons fire around ~200 milliseconds. Can you
           | please explain to me the relationship between processing
           | power and consciousness?
        
             | beambot wrote:
             | I doubt that.
             | 
             | Ignoring confounding algorithmic factors, the _very_ rough
             | consensus for human brain appears to be 10^16 FLOPS. A
             | modern RTX3090 GPU has 10^13 FLOPS. I doubt your laptop has
             | 1000x the compute of a high-end desktop GPU.
        
             | idiotsecant wrote:
             | Let me answer your question with a question - what is the
             | processing power of your brain if you're so sure it's less
             | than your laptop?
        
             | joshmarlow wrote:
             | > My laptop has several orders of processing power more
             | than my brain, whose neurons fire around ~200 milliseconds.
             | 
             | The classic counter-point to the speed difference here is
             | that biological brains are massively parallel - no
             | synchronized system clock, every logical element acting
             | async and in parallel - so that the number of operations
             | per second per element may be tiny (say 10s per second)
             | while the throughput of the entire system is massive.
             | 
             | It's similar logic to deeply pipe-lined processor
             | architectures - pipelining may slow down execution of a
             | particular instruction but allow greater global throughput.
             | 
             | Also, the logical operations performed by neurons (I
             | believe neuron behavior is modeled using differential
             | equations) appear significantly more complex than the
             | boolean switching behavior of the logic gates in CPUs. So
             | the amount of computation may be significantly larger than
             | it appears.
        
           | shironineja wrote:
           | no offense but I think you should consider 5g of cubensis and
           | report back after a few hours.
        
           | shak3zz wrote:
           | But if you have enough time and size...
           | 
           | Reminds me of portia from Echopraxia by Peter Watts
        
           | voldacar wrote:
           | There is no way to prove the statement "x is conscious". You
           | are just stating your opinion.
        
           | xhkkffbf wrote:
           | How many bits per hour do solitary animals like cougars or
           | hawks convey? I agree that whales sing endless, perhaps even
           | annoying other whales with their wails. But many animals
           | don't seem to even hit one bit per day.
        
             | idiotsecant wrote:
             | What do you mean? There is an extremely information dense
             | processing network inside each of those animals. I wasn't
             | making a comment on the information density of their
             | interface, but their processing itself
        
               | xhkkffbf wrote:
               | I think the paper measures the communication through the
               | electric field. So it's fair to compare that to the
               | amount of communication from the solitary animals, right?
               | I'm not measuring their overall computation that they
               | apply going through their day. And I also submit it may
               | be hard to know just how much computation the fungus does
               | when it's not communicating.
        
           | e12e wrote:
           | > The information conveyed over the whole of the network by
           | this mechanism is on the order of bits per hour.
           | 
           | How many hours, though?
        
           | mellosouls wrote:
           | _mushrooms are certainly not conscious_
           | 
           | Considering we don't understand consciousness it might be
           | wiser not to claim limits with certainty.
        
             | JoeAltmaier wrote:
             | At that bitrate we'd have to include a light switch in our
             | consciousness search. Which I am not willing to do.
        
               | maxbond wrote:
               | Bitrate is a total red herring here. What matters is what
               | computation is performed, not the rate at which it is
               | performed. That's like saying a 4-bit microcontroller
               | isn't a computer because it can't run Doom.
        
               | floober wrote:
               | I'd think it is something like a ratio of bitrate to
               | entropy. How quickly is information being processed
               | relative to how quickly it is being lost?
        
               | alan-hn wrote:
               | Do we know if it's being lost at all?
        
               | idiotsecant wrote:
               | Yes. That's thermodynamics.
        
               | [deleted]
        
             | jamal-kumar wrote:
             | I liked Max Tegmark's remark on how "consciousness is the
             | way information feels when it's being processed". I think
             | that it's safe to pretty roughly define it in those terms
             | if we're going to come to a better understanding of what it
             | might ultimately entail given more understandings like the
             | experiments in this research here indicate for deserving
             | more attention.
        
             | ianai wrote:
             | Agree. A more interesting question would be how to interact
             | with this channel in some meaningful way. Ie can we steer
             | some fungus activity in some way with introducing some
             | stimulus. Not exactly to "test for conscious" but just "can
             | we get repeatable output for a controlled input."
             | 
             | I do though think it should be allowable to ponder out loud
             | things like "could this be conscious?" If only because it's
             | a much more fruitful and less self serving premise than how
             | science has conducted itself to this point. But also
             | because humans have something of a vested interest in not
             | having to admit that wide industrial processes harm
             | sentient life, for instance.
        
           | timschmidt wrote:
           | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0uffu5XM-s
           | 
           | Fungi expertly transport material around themselves. This
           | time-lapse shows traffic through a fungal network. DNA-
           | containing nuclei are stained green. Pulses of nuclei -
           | 'nuclear comets' - travel in hordes through the mycelium (of
           | Neurospora crassa).
           | 
           | The role of nuclear comets is unclear. The most plausible
           | hypothesis is that the fungus uses comets to supply growing
           | spores with nuclei, although how the fungus is able to
           | shuttle the nuclei so quickly remains a puzzle. Nuclear
           | comets travel faster than material transported by microtubule
           | 'motors' (dynamic filaments that behave like a cross between
           | scaffolding and escalators). Comets are followed closely by
           | flocks of energy-producing mitochondria, which might play a
           | role in their rapid transport.
           | 
           | Video was made using laser scanning confocal microscopy of
           | Neurospora crassa. The field of view is approximately 0.6 mm.
           | 
           | Video (c) Patrick Hickey
        
             | jamal-kumar wrote:
             | That's incredible, thanks for sharing that! I've only ever
             | seen videos of neurons stained like that and they sure
             | don't seem to be doing the same thing, though I think I
             | remember what I saw had something to do with genetically
             | engineering the kinases to clump together so they could
             | actually be seen
        
           | bognition wrote:
           | Thats all going to depend the constraints you place on
           | consciousness. Hell in the animal kingdom we struggle to
           | define which animals are conscious and they all have very
           | similar compute hardware.
           | 
           | Mushrooms are so different than anything we know it's hard to
           | rule out what they are or are not doing. There are mycelium
           | networks that span massive spaces, 10s of square kilometers.
           | There is a lot of mass, a tightly interconnected network that
           | senses, computes, and changes its environment. So its hard to
           | really rule anything out yet.
           | 
           | Honestly, I think there is a lot of complexity happening on
           | this planet that we are missing, especially if we open
           | ourselves up to larger timescales.
        
             | polishdude20 wrote:
             | At some point the word "consciousness" loses its already
             | muddled meaning. Humans are conscious, dogs are conscious,
             | fish are conscious, mollusks are conscious, insects are
             | conscious, bacteria is conscious, fungi is conscious etc.
             | 
             | We don't even have a concrete definition for what conscious
             | means but we use that classification as a means to make
             | rules about what we can and can't do to certain entities.
             | Can we destroy an ecosystem that has been found to be full
             | of conscious mycelium? Is that worse than if we determined
             | it was not conscious after all? Without a concrete
             | definition of what consciousness is, we assign
             | consciousness to things based on feeling and on what we
             | want to signal to other humans about these entities.
        
               | alan-hn wrote:
               | I think that means we didn't have a good definition or
               | understanding to begin with
        
             | [deleted]
        
           | djitz wrote:
           | Well, that settles it. Let's pack it up, team.
        
         | antattack wrote:
         | Brings to mind this TED talk: Electrical experiments with
         | plants that count and communicate
         | 
         | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvBlSFVmoaw
        
         | xg15 wrote:
         | Am I reading the abstract correctly that the spike duration is
         | measured in _hours_ though? That 's an odd change of scale
         | compared to neurons, especially as the scale of the actual
         | entities (fungal networks vs networks of neuron cells) don't
         | seem that different
        
           | trenchgun wrote:
           | Scale is quite different. Consider the density.
        
         | tehchromic wrote:
         | Use of the word conscious here is interesting. Is there any
         | doubt that fungi are conscious of what they are conscious of?
         | 
         | I think that we have to be careful. Speaking philosophically
         | it's safe to say that we do not yet have a clear, definitive
         | definition of "consciousness" in scientific terms such that we
         | can safely assess what is or isn't conscious.
         | 
         | Some believe consciousness is what distinguishes humans from
         | lower beasts. Others believe it is an emergent phenomenon of
         | some higher order macroorganisms, dolphins but not cows,
         | monkeys but not fish. Still others believe that plants, fungi,
         | bacteria, and all living things display some level of
         | consciousness.
         | 
         | And some weird folks believe consciousness is a property of the
         | universe expressed in all things, which happens to manifest in
         | forms that we understand and relate to in living organisms due
         | to the inherent bias of observing through the lense of being a
         | biological organism ourselves.
         | 
         | It appears difficult if not impossible to prove which of these
         | definitions is correct!
         | 
         | What seems clear is that the idea of consciousness cuts to the
         | very core of the modern scientific paradigm and world view,
         | such that the inherent assumptions made in building our
         | scientific realism allow us only a very narrow understanding of
         | what is consciousness accompanied by a certainty that what we
         | do understand must be all there is.
         | 
         | That's to say, if you've ever questioned the fundamental axioms
         | of scientific truth you've inevitably bumped into the
         | philosophical problem of consciousness relative to the
         | institution of scientific realism.
         | 
         | So to say, when someone says "we now have proof that X may in
         | fact be conscious!" the statement comes across to some ears as
         | most definitely vague and exactingly inordinate!
        
           | plutonorm wrote:
           | I object to being called weird. It's quite a logical position
           | to hold, many modern philosophers hold a panpsychist or
           | similar view.
        
             | tehchromic wrote:
             | Others feel that weird is the greatest compliment.
        
           | oceanplexian wrote:
           | Maybe this is closer to spirituality than science, but I've
           | been reading Eckhart Tolle and he explains in a few of his
           | books that the whole idea of "I" or "My self" is an illusion
           | that's created by the ego. This is also the message from a
           | lot of Eastern philosophy.
           | 
           | I would hazard to guess that individual consciousness doesn't
           | actually exist, so of course a tree can't be individually
           | conscious because neither can a human. We (both the tree and
           | the human) are part of a collective "consciousness" that is
           | life itself.
        
         | RosanaAnaDana wrote:
         | Man just wait till you hear about plasmodesma..
        
         | dilippkumar wrote:
         | > In all seriousness mushrooms COULD be conscious
         | 
         | There is a fungus [0]. that takes over a carpenter ant's brain
         | and makes it climb up plants and clutch on to a leaf with it's
         | jaw and hang down from it. The fungus then sprouts the fruiting
         | body from the dangling ant and spreads its spores.
         | 
         | As an armchair theorist, anything that can interface with a
         | brain and coordinate a nervous system to produce complicated
         | movement has to be capable of computation at some level.
         | 
         | [0].
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophiocordyceps_unilateralis#Na...
        
           | meetups323 wrote:
           | > computation at some level
           | 
           | Unfortunately that term applies to basically everything...
           | computation at every classical level we know only requires
           | "maybe have state, maybe update state in response to
           | environment, maybe move to new environment based on new
           | state, maybe repeat".
        
           | PartiallyTyped wrote:
           | We have quite a bit of evidence that our gut bacteria
           | influence our long term actions and behaviour through
           | neurotransmitter precursors.
        
           | [deleted]
        
           | Aardwolf wrote:
           | Armchair theorist as well, but all consciousness aside, it
           | could also be that there's just a simple chemical that makes
           | ants want to climb up (just like some hormones make the human
           | brain want things), so that there's no computation involved,
           | the mushroom might just happen to excrete the right chemical
           | in the right place
        
             | arrosenberg wrote:
             | That seems more likely to me too. Imagine a fungus that
             | could provide dopamine directly to the brain when a human
             | host meets a certain condition (e.g. a certain amount of
             | direct sunlight, humidity, wind).
        
               | monkeybutton wrote:
               | Like toxoplasmosis?
        
               | dunefox wrote:
               | I mean, apparently toxoplasmosis or something like it can
               | result in personality changes even in humans.
        
               | everhard_ wrote:
               | Agree, it's more like they're responding to stimuli,
               | could we derive somehow that their genes have evolved
               | some degree of ... intelligence?
        
               | arrosenberg wrote:
               | Eh, I'd say that's a point for debate, but I would argue
               | stochastic survival probability under some prior
               | conditions that haven't changed enough to force further
               | competition.
        
               | stadium wrote:
               | Not exactly this scenario, but the psilocybe genus
               | produces chemicals very similar to serotonin.
        
             | bdamm wrote:
             | Getting the ant to clamp onto the underside of a branch or
             | leaf and then stay there until it dies is a bit harder to
             | explain. However I am also inclined to believe there is a
             | localized mechanism at play, such as locating the jaw
             | actuation through connective tissue RNA. Even so, there
             | must be some basic signaling and state detection at play.
             | It's probably the biological equivalent of a music box that
             | just plays the notes it's been fixed to play, but still
             | interesting.
        
           | colechristensen wrote:
           | People tend to underestimate the ability of very simple
           | systems to result in complex behavior. It is entirely
           | possible that this ant hijacking is entirely done though a
           | few very simple manipulations of the existing ant nervous
           | system and more likely than a much more complex fungal brain
           | replacement.
        
             | xg15 wrote:
             | > _It is entirely possible that this ant hijacking is
             | entirely done though a few very simple manipulations of the
             | existing ant nervous system_
             | 
             | Hasn't that been ruled out by now though?
             | 
             | (Content warning: Zombie ant fungus details)
             | 
             | I read articles about that fungus and I believe for a long
             | time it was assumed that the fungus rewires something
             | inside the ant's brain that makes it want to climb to the
             | top of a grass blade etc. - so it would "only" manipulate
             | the high-level goals of the ant but not control the more
             | complex and dynamic low-level operations (such as walking
             | or navigating) directly.
             | 
             | However, a few months ago there was a paper about more
             | detailed research on the molecular mechanisms the fungus
             | uses for the takeover. Turns out, the former hypothesis was
             | wrong and in fact it _does_ control the ant 's arms/legs
             | directly. If that's true, then the fungus itself must
             | somehow actively steer the ant towards the grass.
        
               | trenchgun wrote:
               | Link please?
        
               | xg15 wrote:
               | This is the article I got the info from:
               | http://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/11/how-
               | the-z...
               | 
               | This seems to be the referenced paper:
               | https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1711673114
               | 
               | I was wrong about it being from a few months ago though.
               | It was released in 2017 already.
        
             | rhn_mk1 wrote:
             | Could we be underestimating the ability of very simple
             | systems to result in consciousness?
        
               | colechristensen wrote:
               | No.
               | 
               | I don't think the logistic map is conscious, but it is
               | very complex. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logistic_map
               | 
               | What I'm talking about re: ants is a few chemical signals
               | specifically targeting ant behaviors resulting in the
               | infected behavior. I don't think the fungus is any more
               | conscious than a handful of pills.
        
             | yosito wrote:
             | > It is entirely possible that this ant hijacking is
             | entirely done though a few very simple manipulations
             | 
             | It is entirely possible that human motivations and
             | reasoning are driven by similarly simple mechanisms. The
             | best example I can think of is how much of an asshole I can
             | be to my family when I'm hangry.
        
               | colechristensen wrote:
               | The complex conscious and unconscious behavior can indeed
               | be manipulated by quite simple things (hunger,
               | stimulants, alcohol) but the complexity does not come
               | from the lever that made the change, it's just pushing
               | levers all over the place of your existing feedback
               | cycles which results in much different outcomes.
        
               | hypertele-Xii wrote:
               | Don't know if you did that on purpose, but "hangry" is
               | such a beautiful word.
        
               | bdamm wrote:
               | "Hangry" is now a widespread term. It's even in Merriam-
               | Webster: https://www.merriam-
               | webster.com/dictionary/hangry
        
           | axiom92 wrote:
           | Cool video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vijGdWn5-h8
        
           | gigaflop wrote:
           | If fungus has a language, it means we can 'talk' to it.
           | 
           | So long as we can put electricity in, and get different
           | electric signals out, we have a sort of interface.
           | 
           | If they're sentient, then wow, great. If not, we can probably
           | work out the right signals and species to use in growing a
           | mushroom-based Turing machine.
        
             | nerdponx wrote:
             | It's not quite "computation", but apparently you can wire a
             | mushroom up to a modular synthesizer and get something
             | resembling music out of it.
             | 
             | Someone has a very entertaining YouTube channel full of
             | this content: https://www.youtube.com/c/MycoLyco. The
             | titles are great too, like "Reishi Talks To Lions Mane
             | About Life In a Bag" (posted 4 days ago).
        
       | williamsmj wrote:
       | Here to recommend Sue Burke's Semiosis/Interference sci-fi
       | duology about first contact with a intelligent plant life.
        
       | Melatonic wrote:
       | People do not realize just how important Fungi are - there was a
       | point at which _Trees_ were the new hotness and Fungi had not
       | evolved yet - prehistoric trees basically took over the entire
       | planet and there was nothing to break down all of the leftover
       | dead wood on the ground. We are talking layers and layers of dead
       | trees everywhere.
       | 
       | Then Fungi evolved and started breaking all that down and
       | eventually a long time later we get animals.
        
         | citruscomputing wrote:
         | Fungi were on land before trees (they broke down rocks to make
         | soil, and were the OG roots). It took them a while to learn to
         | digest.. I think lignin was it?
         | 
         | Half remembered from first chapter of Entangled Life.
        
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