[HN Gopher] A detailed look at the S-300P anti-aircraft missile ... ___________________________________________________________________ A detailed look at the S-300P anti-aircraft missile system Author : PaulHoule Score : 79 points Date : 2022-04-07 16:53 UTC (6 hours ago) (HTM) web link (ausairpower.net) (TXT) w3m dump (ausairpower.net) | pseudo0 wrote: | This should probably have a (2012) added to the title, it's | interesting but a bit dated. For example the criticism of | Australia not buying F-22s, when the discussion the last few | years has been all about F-35s. | sbierwagen wrote: | The Australians might _want_ to buy F-22s, but Congress banned | exports. Much like the F-15, the previous air superiority | fighter, for which external sales were very limited. | wolf550e wrote: | https://archive.is/0Iy1 | zby wrote: | The link as it is currently leads me to a page containing garbled | characters: "SPQUuaO=iu{h$?,oe?? | \y0-Uq=sso(tm)iyythlVuto++ix,,EYC/<<<<"(Yr>>Er(c)". When I add | www. to the front of it I get the page about S300: | http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Grumble-Gargoyle.html | ruined wrote: | not the case for me, via a couple different browsers, dns, and | client locations. didn't try chrome. | MisterTea wrote: | Works out of the box on FF and netsurf on linux. Though netsurf | on plan 9 needed the www prefix. | Ourgon wrote: | Same here, both with Firefox as well as when using _wget_. The | downloaded data is not recognised by the _file_ command as | anything other that _data_. | zer0w1re wrote: | Works fine for me on Firefox 99.0 | [deleted] | PaulHoule wrote: | It works fine w/ Firefox for me. | nonrandomstring wrote: | Seems like the battlefield has moved entirely into EWF whith | these sorts of things around. Everything comes down to fast RFDSP | in jammer pods to screw with their radar. | boarnoah wrote: | There is just something about large multi axle transport trucks, | they look so cool. | newsclues wrote: | Those trucks are incredibly expensive | PaulHoule wrote: | When they shoot the missile they point those canisters up in | the air. There is a cold gas system that ejects the missile up | into the air, it then ignites, then it takes off in some | direction like | | https://www.flickr.com/photos/ministryofdefenceua/3189460316... | | if the engine doesn't ignite then the missile falls back down | on the launcher, resulting in this genre of Youtube video | | https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=S-300+FAIL | | Sometimes the fuse goes off when the missile hits the launcher | and usually blows up the other missiles in the launcher. Other | times the fuse doesn't go off but then you've got an awful | unexploded ordinance problem. (Who knows when it will go off?) | reneherse wrote: | Great videos! But the launches all seem "normal" to me. | snypher wrote: | https://youtu.be/dKG9HGPjMrg https://youtu.be/cikuNhTjCe8 | | The missile should continue up not fall back down. | krisoft wrote: | I would love to understand the circumstances of the | second video (the one on the Commandos455 channel). | | Not the technical failure, that is clear enough but the | role and reaction of the crowd the camera is in. They | seem to be wearing green fatigues so one would think they | are soldiers... but they are all so unorganised? I | understand that when a missile falls back one would swear | or shout as an involuntary reaction, but they seem more | like a partying higschool group than professionals at | work. | | The cherry on top is the redheaded girl who seems to have | started to leave without her coat and someone brings it | after her. Sadly I don't speak the language. | | I'm wondering is this maybe a high school group on a | military themed day trip? Or I'm just massively | overestimating the professionalism of soldiers? I would | be curious if anyone has any insight into that video. | jrumbut wrote: | Is there a particularly high failure rate with these missiles | or is this a widespread problem in systems where the engine | ignites after launch? | | What do they do after? Is the site repaired? Scrapped? | PaulHoule wrote: | Most accounts are that those failures are "rare"; the | missile is sealed in a canister so it's likely to be a | defective missile from the factory, not some mistake on the | part of the operators. | | It happens enough that there are a handful of videos on | Youtube. Similar failures happen with vertically launched | missiles from ships | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydsm1uzkNu4 | ARandomerDude wrote: | In Soviet Russia, S-300 launches you! | cwillu wrote: | In America, microwave oven cook food. In Russia, it only a | little different: microwave radar cook YOU! | boarnoah wrote: | Heard (anecdotally on reddit) that its one of the advantages | of having hot launch VLS as opposed to cold launch like the | Russian style. | | That way if there is a failure to launch its contained inside | the VLS cell instead of potentially covering the decks in | missile components. | | Although I suppose a cold launch has a good chance of | throwing a failed missile off the deck and into the sea if | its at any angle. | p_l wrote: | Soviet cold-launch approach was to increase the chances | that a failed missile would fall to the side instead of | exploding the launcher, which is why _naval_ soviet-style | launchers are angled - a failure to launch will drop into | water. | aftbit wrote: | >For instance the JSF's forward sector stealth is likely to be | adequate, but its aft and beam sector stealth performance will | not be, especially considering the wavelengths of many of the | radars in question | | I was under the impression that the JSF was overall stealthier | than the Raptor. Searching for more details on Google has led me | down quite the delicious rabbit hole of Quora posts filled with | wild speculation and half-sourced rumors. Here[1] is one of the | better ones. | | 1: https://www.quora.com/Does-the-F-35-have-a-lower-RCS-than- | th... | lnsru wrote: | As an electrical engineer I am curious how russians get their | hands on the mil spec Western electronic components. I mean even | in Western Europe I must fill few forms to obtain potentially | dual use components. Mil spec Xilinx FPGAs or SiGe transistors | aren't available in every grocery store. | jleahy wrote: | These are reflectarray radars, not AESA. No crazy specialist | components are really required, just a lot of PIN diodes. I'm | sure those can be made in Russia. | nimbius wrote: | not sure where the proclivity to underestimate Russian | military technology comes from. it certainly was a sterling | hallmark of US leadership at the time of the cold war. | | Russia has been making in-house AESA for a decade. they | started with APAR radar in 1963, just a few years off from | the US. | | http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Zhuk-AE-Analysis.html | | they also sell the only radar capable of (on the open market) | detecting hypersonics, the 59N6-TE mobile radar. | swamp40 wrote: | > not sure where the proclivity to underestimate Russian | military technology comes from | | They've been turned into bumbling idiots on Twitter and | Reddit. It's a shame, but in my mind it is quite dangerous | because sooner or later some president/general is going to | make a _very_ bad decision based on that meme. "How could | their nukes possibly work?" | jacquesm wrote: | How useful is it to be able to detect a hypersonic missile? | frogger8 wrote: | Russia has a network to get around this. Sort of like the show | the Americans but not as sexy and less photogenic players. | newsclues wrote: | China? | | I think China makes Russian AD built under license, so from the | local Chinese suppliers. | notch656a wrote: | Take a look how easily highly illegal drugs are smuggled in | large quantity, and then ponder how easy it is for civilians to | acquire Xilinx FPGAs in the West regardless of forms. Then | ponder that .ru may be using industrial spec instead of mil | spec : life-critical isn't so important to russia. | rasz wrote: | You can buy it over the counter at the SEG. | PaulHoule wrote: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbrus_(computer) | PeterisP wrote: | Elbrus chips were manufactured in Taiwan TSMC before the war | and it has been stopped now due to the war, Russia has no | domestic capability to manufacture them. | lnsru wrote: | Probably possible to order one of these using automotive | process in some foundry in Asia. Nobody will ask too much and | it would be enough power for defense applications. | wikidani wrote: | They did have some degree of connection with France up until | 2014 so maybe they might have gotten some from there. Also, | sanction busting is a thing and the FSB probably has some way | to get some components in a shady manner | throwaway4good wrote: | Do they use mil spec Western electronic components? I thought | they made their own. | verisimi wrote: | Is this the weaponry that the US are giving to the Ukraine? | T-A wrote: | Not exactly. Ukraine already has S-300s, and Slovakia is | supposedly sending (or already sent) more: | | https://www.defensenews.com/pentagon/2022/03/30/will-slovaki... | | The US does not have any, as far as I know. | ls612 wrote: | The CIA actually did "acquire" some in the late Cold War | which were recently revealed to have been shipped over to | Poland for 'unspecified' purposes. | verisimi wrote: | Yes - part of the $300 lethal aid package. | | "Lethal Aid".. hmmm | | https://anti-empire.com/us-is-transferring-large-suicide-dro... | Animats wrote: | It's interesting that there's a ground-mobile Russian successor | to the AEGIS SPY-1 radar, the 64N6E. The SPY-1 is a very good | radar, but it first came out in 1973. It requires a huge amount | of support electronics, restricting its use to larger ships. | There have been successor US systems, but none good enough to | replace it. Squeezing that down to truck size is real progress. | rich_sasha wrote: | How do I square this supposed prowess with the Ukrainian Air | Force still operating? Even worse, drone footage (so flying | things) of S-300 being destroyed? Or indeed NATO or Israel | regularly making mincemeat out of Soviet-equipped opponents? | | I'm not denying Russians can achieve technological brilliance, | often bypassing budgetary constraints in novel ways, equally | their military technology seems to regularly come up top trumps | on paper and not in the battlefield. | dragonwriter wrote: | Logistics, training, discipline, and morale/motivation are | factors that often get treated as secondary to technology, but | in most battlefield scenarios they are a big deal, and Russia | has big problems with all of them. | 323 wrote: | Maybe they are just not running them? | | There are a lot of military experts saying that they see | baffling examples of incompetence from the Russian army in this | war, failing at really basic stuff. | | I'm no military expert, but I've seen Russian infantry videos | where they are basically running around like headless chickens | as the saying goes, like they received no training at all. | stochtastic wrote: | I'll refrain from picking a side, but Air Power Australia and | the credibility of its proprietor Carlo Kopp are... | controversial [1,2]. He has extensive knowledge of many of the | relevant topics, but is viewed as having an axe to grind about | particular systems as they pertain to Australian procurement | decisions. Russian SAMs have always been shrouded in a huge | amount of marketing mystery. While they are obviously capable | and advanced systems, evidence continues to accumulate that | some of the magic is smoke and mirrors. | | I read this article with great interest over technical details, | but stop short of accepting conclusions along the lines of | "Flap Lid is comparable to SPY-1". Only the folks who train and | operate against those systems in the real world really know if | that's true, and it's one of the things we are least likely to | have accurate information about in the public domain. | | [1] | https://www.reddit.com/r/CredibleDefense/comments/1vj7r6/is_... | | [2] https://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27190& | nl wrote: | I thought this was a good piece about the success of Turkish | drones vs the Russian Pantsir AA system in Libya was pretty | good. It goes pretty deep into the tactics used. | | https://www.mideastcenter.org/post/how-did-turkish-uavs-outm... | recuter wrote: | Israel has a deconflicting mechanism with Russia in Syria as | does the US and Turkey but it is very true that it could more | or less do whatever it wants. Because it is the IAF. | | The Ukrainian Air Force is still operating mostly because the | Russian one is somewhat MIA. Possible/Partial explanation for | their bad performance is corruption. Another one is much more | alarming and that is that the Russian strategy does not require | air superiority. | | Either way it is not relevant to the S-300 which is deployed | within the borders of Russia as it is a defensive system. | | What you want to read about instead is the Krasukha: | | https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/44879/ukraine-just-cap... | trhway wrote: | >the Russian one is somewhat MIA | | it is a bit unclear why, yet Russia has been using much more | expensive Su-30/35 fighters and Su-34 bombers for close air | support instead of more traditional/suitable/cheap Su-25. As | close air support naturally loses a lot of planes to MANPADS | and air-defense guns, especially considering that Su-30/35/34 | aren't armored like Su-25, Russia has lost a lot of those | Su-30/35/34. As a result of those losses Russia has | significantly scaled back the close air support and decreased | air superiority missions. | albertopv wrote: | AFAIK Russia didn't get air supremacy in Ukraine, not easily at | least, which is strange given all S-300 and S-400 and now S-500 | Russia has. | PaulHoule wrote: | Ukraine has S-300, Buk, Tor and other Soviet-era anti aircraft | missile systems, those are dangerous to Russian air assets. | (Many of the USSR's most famous weapon systems were built in | Ukraine, the Ukraine has pretty much the same tanks, missiles, | etc. as Russia -- that is why Russia has to paint a Z on their | vehicles otherwise they couldn't tell them apart.) | | The S-400 is an improved version of the S-300, they upgraded | all the parts (radar, missile, launcher) but it is the same | architecture (which is basically the same as the US Patriot but | in most respects better) | | The S-500 has insane range, can hit low earth orbit satellites | and more relevant it can hit this kind of aircraft hundreds of | miles away | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_E-3_Sentry | | An aircraft like that can light up the battlefield with radar | from far away and let stealth aircraft operate close to the | enemy without switching their own radar. | | Anyhow, Russians don't believe in "air superiority" (control | the airspace with their own plane) but instead they have anti- | aircraft missiles to defend the anti-aircraft missiles that | defend their anti-aircraft missiles. They might not control the | battlespace completely but it will be a dangerous place to fly. | redisman wrote: | They even shot a Su-35 with apparently a stinger. I guess it | was flying very low | littlestymaar wrote: | "Big" air defense system are good to destroy targets at | middle or high altitude. Since both sides have such | systems, the only "safe" place to fly is very low altitude | (below 500 feet, or 150m) where you're practically hidden | from air defenses' radar, but you end up being in the range | of MANPADS (though shooting at a fighter jet with a MANPADS | is way harder than doing the same on an helicopter) | troyvit wrote: | This article confirms what you say (at least from this source): | https://coffeeordie.com/ukrainian-mig-29-pilot-interview/ | | It's a good read about how Ukrainian pilots worked to foil | Russian anti-aircraft measures. | rhino369 wrote: | That's because Ukraine operates s300 too. Neither side can | operate high altitude flights. | pintxo wrote: | A SAM system is quite vulnerable while being transported or | setup. I guess they did not properly stage their SAM units? Set | up the first on on your site of the border, then one within the | shield of the first, then the third within the shield of the | second? | ARandomerDude wrote: | SAMs also require ground support or they get overrun, | captured, and potentially used against your own aircraft. I'm | guessing this was a consideration for Ukraine's placement of | air defenses. | | Many things in the military are rock-paper-scissors | considerations: | | - SAMs beat planes. | | - Planes beat ground forces. | | - Ground forces beat SAMs. | | Within the ground forces themselves: | | - Infantry beats tanks. | | - Tanks beat artillery. | | - Artillery beats infantry. | | Examples of this kind abound. | KineticLensman wrote: | > Many things in the military are rock-paper-scissors | considerations | | Hence the importance of combined arms operations. Sending a | column of tanks on its own is just a case of | scissors...scissors...scissors. Pre-operational training is | also essential. It's too late, in contact, for infantry to | figure out how to fight alongside tanks. | | Lots of armies seem to discover this the hard way in a war, | adapt their tactics accordingly, only to forget it in time | for the next war. Incidentally, this also explains the | western Battlegroup concept. It's the smallest integrated | unit with a sensible mix of different arms, usually | structured around an infantry or armour battalion depending | on the circumstances. | JamesBarney wrote: | They don't have air supremacy, and even air superiority is iffy | and region dependent. | littlestymaar wrote: | No amount of SAM system can gain air supremacy alone: such | systems are pretty much useless against planes flying very low | (below 500 feet, or 150m) just because the plane is hidden by | the terrain. | | To get air supremacy, you need to have planes flying in the | enemy's sky, but to do so you need to destroy the enemy's own | air defence, with what is called a SEAD campaign (which stands | for "Supression of Ennemy Air Defense") and from what is | happening in Ukraine it's pretty clear that the VKS doesn't | know how to do SEAD (pretty much like the US in the Vietnam | war, where they've learned the hard way). | wikidani wrote: | The ukrainians have rather skillfully denied their airspace to | the russians using their own AD assets and as a consequence of | russian doctrine, they aren't too prepared to deal with SEAD | missions so we get this weird situation where both sides deny | airspace to each other ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-04-07 23:01 UTC)