[HN Gopher] B773 at Paris on Apr 5th, airplane did not respond t... ___________________________________________________________________ B773 at Paris on Apr 5th, airplane did not respond to commands Author : dz0ny Score : 103 points Date : 2022-04-08 18:09 UTC (4 hours ago) (HTM) web link (avherald.com) (TXT) w3m dump (avherald.com) | NelsonMinar wrote: | If it's Boeing I ain't going. | lizardactivist wrote: | This is not normal, and they can't keep blaming it on having | outsourced software work to low-paid Indian programmers like in | the past. | | It would be interesting to tally up incidents like these, and see | if there is some pattern to what type of plane, manufacturer, | geographical location of incident etc. | [deleted] | [deleted] | tschesnok wrote: | Pilot here (just private): Alarm seem to indicate that the | autopilot was not disengaged till much later. The question is | why? | | Left turn may just be because of interference of the localizer.. | which the autopilot was following. | | With the autopilot on.. you have a fight on your hands until it | disengages. (like in your Tesla :) | JCM9 wrote: | Expecting a lot of armchair NTSB investigators to rock up here, | but honestly not much indication on what happened until the | appropriate authorities can pull the data recorders out of the | aircraft and see what was going on. | | Looking forward to reading what happened but until then... | | Interesting observation that the controllers and pilots were | speaking French to each other. They're really not supposed to do | that (English is the standard for ATC, in part so other aircraft | can maintain situational awareness) but that happens a lot in | France. | Thaxll wrote: | Pilots speak their own language in their country, everywhere | else is in english. | | Why Im being downvoted? | coin wrote: | Because that's not always the case. There are plenty of non- | English countries that use English even for native flights, | eg Japan and Taiwan. | [deleted] | MobileVet wrote: | Because English is the official ATC language used world wide. | You must know and speak in English to fly. | | You may speak another language but English is first and | relied upon. | physhster wrote: | In lots of countries, GA pilots don't speak English, but | ATC does. | bee_rider wrote: | Hey be nice, southern accents might be kind of weird, but | technically people from Georgia (the state) speak | English. | mechanical_bear wrote: | GA = general aviation | DocTomoe wrote: | Point is, both of you are correct, and this argument is | pointless. The native language is a common fallback during | emergency situations, in situations where phraseology is | insufficient, to expedite communication. | pc86 wrote: | Because you're wrong. The lingua franca of the air is | English. I've heard ATC recordings in multiple countries and | they're all in English, including ones between non-native | English speakers. If you come on this frequency and you don't | speak French, you have no context at all for what's going on. | It's incredibly dangerous and it shouldn't ever happen. | cameldrv wrote: | It's not consistent. I believe in some countries it's all | English. In Germany, big airports are English, and small | airports are German. In the couple of small airports I've | flown out of in France, it's French. | | I've heard of some countries where the controller will | speak to you in whichever language you speak to them, which | can lead to issues with situational awareness if you're the | only one on the frequency speaking English and you don't | know where all of the other planes are. | _moof wrote: | I'm afraid you're the one who is wrong. Yes, when a common | language is needed, it is English, but native languages are | explicitly allowed by EU law. | smachiz wrote: | Common language is always needed - this is CDG, a large | airport with many flights. It is important that all | planes have situational awareness. If half are speaking | French, how does the pilot coming from Seoul have | situational awareness? What if he's sitting on the runway | and doesn't know that the ATC just gave clearance to land | in French to a pilot on the runway he's currently on? | | ATC and pilots for commercial airlines should only be | speaking English, regardless of their native tongue and | where they are. | | It's pretty important - and it _is_ actually EU law: | https://www.thinkspain.com/news-spain/29531/air-traffic- | cont... | | Unfortunately it only applies to airports with 50k | international flights per year - the bar should be much | lower than that. But of course, CDG qualifies. | hef19898 wrote: | Situational awareness in controlled air space comes to a | large degree from air traffic control. Not from listening | to communicatiom between traffic control and other | planes. | [deleted] | United857 wrote: | I flew a lot of flights on United where they have a feature | in the inflight entertainment system where you can listen in | on the ATC comms (if the captain turns it on). I've found | that: | | * French pilots generally speak in French in France or Quebec | | * Russian pilots speak in Russian in Russia | | * Mainland Chinese pilots speak in Mandarin in mainland China | (but not in Taiwan or HK where English seems to be universal) | | * Spanish/Latin American pilots speak in Spanish in those | places. | | Otherwise, it's generally English ATC including countries | where it's otherwise not the native language, e.g. Japan, | South Korea, Germany. | Tuna-Fish wrote: | Because doing so is a terrible practice, and I'm saying this | as someone who is not a native english speaker. | | The communication between the tower and the plane is not just | for their benefit. Everyone else is on the same frequency, | listening in, and needs to be able to understand what is | going on. Not everyone is going to be able to understand | french, while everyone flying in controlled airspace is going | to understand english. | [deleted] | hef19898 wrote: | And France ain't a black hole like Africa when it comes to | air traffic control. Also, using the language of the | station is acceptable under official rules. French pilots | speaking French in French air space are just fine. | chris_va wrote: | Generally ATC will switch to English when an English speaker | comes onto the frequency, but local language is fine | otherwise... country dependent, though. I haven't flow in | France, but I understand it's mostly in French until someone | calls in with English. | GuB-42 wrote: | I have flown in France and you are completely right. | belter wrote: | "Pursuant to requirements of the International Civil Aviation | Organization (ICAO), ATC operations are conducted either in the | English language or the language used by the station on the | ground. In practice, the native language for a region is | normally used" | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_traffic_control | cft wrote: | I just visited a traffic control room in Spain and an air | traffic controller told me that Spanish and Latin American | pilots speak Spanish to them (not only for landing flights, but | also for transit flights say from Argentina to Germany while | overflying Spain), and the same thing is practiced in France | and Italy. So I am not sure you are right about "really not | supposed to". | t0mas88 wrote: | English is one of the official ICAO languages and it's | mandatory for all pilots at least in EASA and FAA rules to be | English proficient. But as far as I know it's not forbidden | to use any of the other languages if both controller and crew | speak that language. | | Even the other way around, some small French airports have a | listing as "French mandatory" for their radio frequencies. | Which is quite a challenge for me as a foreign pilot not | speaking French. | | But overall it would be safer if all ATC comms were done in | English. Because it's better for situational awareness if you | can understand what others in the same airspace are doing. | radicaldreamer wrote: | Korean Air had crash after crash until they forbid crew from | speaking in Korean. Turns out cultural norms (highly | hierarchical power structure) and honorifics were causing | copilots to refrain from pointing out issues or pointing them | out in an unclear way. | | A Colombian airline crashed in New York after running out of | fuel due to similar deference to air traffic control. | anonu wrote: | The Colombian airline crash: they were speaking English | though. NYC ATC is going to be brusque and quick... The new | Yorker way. Not many cultures understand that... | giraffe_lady wrote: | ATC needs to be effective for all cultures that fly into | that airport. If the new york one so deviates from the norm | that it can cause crashes that is a very serious problem | that needs to be addressed. | | That said I don't have any reason to think it actually does | and you didn't supply one either. Are air traffic | controllers even normally from the area where they work? | Don't they get assigned? | secondcoming wrote: | There are JFK ATC conversations on youtube. Even I, an | native English speaker but not American, have difficulty | understanding them sometimes. They also sometimes come | across as being dicks, but obviously only the audience- | worthy conversations get uploaded | pininja wrote: | > Are air traffic controllers even normally from the area | where they work? Don't they get assigned? | | They are highly specialized on local facilities, weather, | traffic flows, etc. The New York Metro area is one, if | not the, most complicated airspace's to control in the | world. 4 major international airports (and tons of | smaller airports/heliports) surrounding dense major | cities with complicated weather, noise abatement | procedures, and high congestion. | | There are dozens of air traffic controllers of all | different seats (supervisors, arrivals, ground, towers, | helicopters) in the region. It's a lot of coordinate. | | This video gives a nice 3 minute overview: | https://www.faa.gov/tv/?mediaId=1042 | FL410 wrote: | It's not so much that they deviate from the norm (quite | the opposite, there's a manual that dictates exact | phraseology), it's just that there's SO MUCH traffic that | they don't have time to hold hands, and they expect you | to be competent. In other words, there's very little time | or room for error, and that can come off as rudeness. | | It is always the pilot's prerogative to overrule ATC (if | there's a legitimate reason) and/or declare an emergency. | And I assure you NY ATC would take it seriously if you | do. They just don't have time to dance around. | kayodelycaon wrote: | Sadly, there was a compounding issue that the pilots | didn't declare an emergency or divert when they were | running out of fuel. They thought asking for "priority" | was sufficient, when the word has more urgency in their | native language than it does in English. :( | | New York controllers were more abrasive than they were | used to and they had trouble speaking up. The controllers | also didn't communicate well amongst themselves and the | pilots didn't know their request for a sooner landing to | due low fuel was not passed on. | | Ultimately, the problem was the pilot's failure to follow | procedures. With the controllers being disorganized | either due to lack of procedure or failure to follow it. | Either of them could have prevented it. | | Note: It is not sufficient to blame the pilots and move | on. People make mistakes. Both sides need to be improved, | because single points of failure kill people. | cameldrv wrote: | In my experience the NY ATC can be brusque in a way that | can border on the unprofessional, and they tend to have | an accent that can be hard to understand if you're not | from there and you're listening on your crappy AM | aviation radio. I assume that would go double for a non- | native speaker of English. | | In the rest of the country that I've flown in, the | controllers seem to be aiming for the voice of bored | Apollo mission controllers. | andbberger wrote: | how high of a price are we willing to pay for kennedy | steve | mbubb wrote: | some years back I worked on a project with Korean Air on | exactly that topic, cockpit communication and honorifics... A | compounding factor was that pilots and crew often came from | military backgrounds. | | I learned about a number of air disasters and PanAm/KLM | crash[1] in Tenerife 1977 really stuck with me. In the | transcript a Dutch pilot says something like "We are now at | take off" when he was indicating that the plane was in the | process of taking off. (an idiomatic way of expression) | | There was already much stress on the situation as an incident | at another airport caused massive traffic rearrangement | across Europe. Under stress we revert to native ways of | expression. I tried to keep this incident in the back of my | mind throughout the project, and since... | | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife_airport_disaster | | edit - include the transcrpt: | https://tailstrike.com/database/27-march-1977-klm-4805/ | tomatowurst wrote: | What is really maddening about Korean neo-confucian society | is this automatic social hierarchy based on your age, as if | to suggest someone who is older than you is automatically | infallible and has authority over you. It was exported to | Japan (Senpai and kohai is a direct model of Korean sunbae, | hoobae) but it doesn't seem to practice Confucianism this | strictly, there really is no other countries that take it | this extremely. | | It reminds me of the Japanese invasion of Chosun dynasty, | how the rigid military/confucian structure made | communication impossible and largely allowed unopposed | landings by Hideyoshi's army. | kevin_thibedeau wrote: | It isn't based on individual age. I know Korean cousins | with a 20 year age difference where the _younger_ one | gets the honorific because his lineage is older and he 's | an earlier generation. They never speak Korean with each | other. | robocat wrote: | As a low-ranking middle aged average white guy from a | small 1st world country: if I go to Korea can I get a | status boost? | | I have seen low-rank white dudes get status upgrades in | other Asian countries for a variety of reasons. One | architect told me how he was hanging with high status | Indonesians, and how he could name-drop NZ politicians | because our culture means low-rank citizens can | personally know people in high-rank positions. Perhaps I | can manipulate the Korean status game in my favour | because my background is somewhat unmeasurable. | X6S1x6Okd1st wrote: | You'd exist largely outside of the neo confucianist | status structure. You'd be a foreigner in a way that is | hard to understand if you've spent all your life in the | heterogeneous melting pots. | | I'm many cases this would apply even if you are Korean | but grew up outside the hierarchy (i.e. grew up in the | US) | | You'd have some status as a us citizen as a white person, | but it's complicated and a double edged sword | The5thElephant wrote: | That was a Malcolm Gladwell theory that has been debunked, | particularly here: | http://askakorean.blogspot.com/2013/07/culturalism- | gladwell-... | | In general I tend to question much of Gladwell's ideas these | days seeing how many of them have been demonstrated to be | wrong. | radicaldreamer wrote: | Aw man, this is a real bummer. I thought I'd weaned myself | off of Gladwell, but his fabulism is embedded in my | memories from way back :( he's so good at it! | CamperBob2 wrote: | Wow, are all Koreans that bad at arguing? (/s) How do you | even _begin_ to compare a solitary sport like golf to the | team effort involved in flying a passenger jet? | | The influence of cultural imbalances on aviation safety is | not a subject for debate, and hasn't been since the | Tenerife disaster in which a junior officer hesitated to | argue with a respected senior pilot. This blogger may be | well-intentioned but they haven't bothered to do their | homework. Point goes to Gladwell on this one, as flawed as | his conclusions have been in other areas. | yongjik wrote: | Malcolm Gladwell may have overstated his theory, but | askakorean is itself a biased source, and IMHO shouldn't be | trusted too much. It is a fact that (1) Korean Air had a | string of preventable accidents during that time, (2) pilot | hierarchy in communication was believed to be a major | factor that led to the Guam disaster, and (3) later Korean | Air mandated everybody to speak English in the cockpit. | | How much (3) contributed to the improved safety record is | anyone's guess. | bakashi wrote: | jahnu wrote: | People really should be very wary of anything Gladwell says | in recent years. The fisking The Bomber Mafia got should be | evidence enough. | sbierwagen wrote: | >A Colombian airline crashed in New York after running out of | fuel due to similar deference to air traffic control. | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avianca_Flight_52 | smachiz wrote: | Not just deference. They crashed without ever declaring an | emergency. Ultimately, ATC could have been better - but | that was a pilot CRM issue. | C4K3 wrote: | Why is it possible for a pilot to "fight" the autopilot? From my | (layman's) point of view, it seems logical that either the pilot | would be in control or the autopilot would be in control, but not | both at the same time. | [deleted] | TheMagicHorsey wrote: | Is it possible they did not disengage the auto-pilot? | christkv wrote: | I thought the auto pilot disengages automatically when you move | the controls? | chociej wrote: | On this aircraft you must move the column with something like | 20-25 pounds of force before the autopilot decides that you | are overriding it. | assttoasstmgr wrote: | If you listen to the ATC audio someone posted above, you hear | the autopilot disconnect sound at 0:56 which is well after | the incident began and all the other alarms were going off. | This doesn't make sense. Did they not realize the plane was | still on autopilot and were trying to hand-fly it and | override the controls? I'm not jumping to any conclusions but | it's very possible this was a normally functioning airplane. | DocTomoe wrote: | It does. | rootusrootus wrote: | The 777 pilot who analyzed and explained what was going on | says otherwise. It will cause a master warning or something | along those lines, but not cause AP to disengage. Which | makes sense. | hef19898 wrote: | Let's leave the incident investigation to the | professional investigators anf authorities, shall we? | FlyingAvatar wrote: | Source? In the Juan Brown (a 777 pilot YouTuber) video | (https://youtu.be/cslSQB5mgyc) referenced in another | comment, he specifically states that you must physically | fight the autopilot for control if it's engaged. | EMM_386 wrote: | There is a further discussion among pilots here: | | https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/646054-air-france-b777-c... | stuff4ben wrote: | Very good discussion. Interesting comment: | | > Originally Posted by Capt Kremin: There was nothing wrong | with the aircraft. The crew had the wrong runway/approach | selected and tried to override the AP manually. The subsequent | go-around was incorrectly handled in that they retracted the | gear before the initial stage of flap, hence the config | warning. | t0mas88 wrote: | Note that the rest of the posts after him disagree and point | out that they were on a stable approach to the left most | runway and the aircraft then turned a lot more to the left. | That's not something that would happen if it was only a wrong | runway selection. | anonu wrote: | Hate to bring up the AF crash in the middle of the ocean from | Brazil to France. This was, at the very root of it, a cultural | issue. Pure speculation (because it's fun to speculate): this | seems related to similar issues in the cockpit. | smcl wrote: | I don't see how it's similar. | | > While climbing out and levelling off at 4000 feet the crew | reported they had problems with _the aircraft not following | commands_ , the aircraft did not follow the commands | | While there is little culture shared between human and | airplane, this doesn't seem to be a cultural issue at all :) | touisteur wrote: | How do you come to that conclusion? To the best of my | understanding it was at least 3 things: | | - strange choice of going through complex weather (somehow | foreseen) | | - failure (icing iirc) of the pitot airspeed sensors, raising | multiple failures in the cockpit, and disengaging autopilot and | putting the aircraft in a more hands-on (I'm not using the | proper terms, there should be 'law' or 'envelope' somewhere) | leading to a loss of trust of the crew in the cockpit. To me | _that_ was the linchpin, automation-exit failure. | | - combined (sum of) commands from the pilot and copilot. They | should have tried gaining speed (repetitive stall warnings) but | the copilot was (in panic) trying to gain altitude while the | pilot was putting the nose down. They both thought the aircraft | wasn't answering their command. | | - lack of crew communication. The 1st pilot was off in cabin, | leaving his two cockpit crew without a clear chain of command, | and the 2 remaining crew never talked about steps they were | taking. | | How do you square it was a cultural issue? Genuinely curious, | as I make a point of sending the transcript to all the happy | 'autopilot the low hanging fruit and let the human handle the | special cases' dreamers I meet :-) | omnicognate wrote: | > about 4.17nm before the runway | | Nautical miles? | | Read it as nanometres initially.... | paulmd wrote: | yes, aviation generally uses nautical measures (nautical miles | and knots of speed) when using the imperial system | dz0ny wrote: | Tower radio recording: | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzCNKhFOPqU | bitcharmer wrote: | Thank you for sharing. | | Listening to the distress in the pilot's tone made me uneasy. | This is probably a good indication that the situation was very | serious. | | What's going on with those Boeing airplanes? | rootusrootus wrote: | > What's going on with those Boeing airplanes? | | I don't think it's only Boeing airplanes where the autopilot | will resist your attempts to override it with manual control | inputs. If anything, I kinda expect that Airbus planes are | even more opinionated about that type of behavior. | nolok wrote: | Damn, the guy doesn't say the plane doesn't respond to commands | but "l'avion fait n'importe quoi" which implies more like the | responses to commands are not the one expected. | saalaa wrote: | The pilot said "[...] un probleme de commandes de vol, | l'avion a fait a peu pres n'importe quoi [...]" and it | translates as "[...] flight controls issue, the plane did | just about whatever [...]". | | To add a bit more, it's interesting to note that at several | points in the recording the pilots can be heard fighting the | controls and apparently requiring force for that | (https://youtu.be/VzCNKhFOPqU?t=25 for example). I know the | two ariplanes are unrelated but this was also the case for | 737 Max IIRC. | rootusrootus wrote: | > apparently requiring force for that | | Yeah, when autopilot is engaged it requires a good bit of | force to override it without just turning it off first. | saalaa wrote: | I'm absolutely not knowledgeable on this topic so double | check everything I say. | | I think the issue on the 737 Max was that there's been a | known and studied system (called the MCAS IIRC) on Boeing | planes that overrides pilot controls under some specific | pre-determined circumstances and that system had been | buffed to compensate for design flaws that were | discovered too late to be corrected. On top of being | faulty, that buffed system was also way outside of its | initial intent and purpose (or rather the parameters | guiding its operation were changed so much that it should | have been addressed as a separate system and mandated | specific training while they were trying to portray the | plane as a simple evolution requiring no pilot re- | training from earlier versions of the 737). | | So, to me, it looks like yet another issue with a system | overriding pilot controls for whatever reason. | | More generally, this falls into that weird pattern of | relying on external sensors which starts a chain of bad | decisions leading to accidents (this was also a sensor | issue with the Air France 447, although the chain was | largely human this time, the pilots realizing way too | late their repeated mistake). | sokoloff wrote: | This is a B777-300, which does not have MCAS. The 737-Max | had MCAS added because of the larger engines on that | model than prior 737s. This is not an issue "on [all] | Boeing planes" (which, to be fair you didn't directly | say, but what you did say was pretty ambiguous and could | easily [perhaps even most naturally] be read to have | meant that). | saalaa wrote: | Sorry, this happens a lot to me. For the record I'm not | trying to discredit Boeing. I do have issues organizing | and expressing my thoughts which results in less than | ideal communication. | t0mas88 wrote: | It disengages when you fight it. With the associated and | very recognizable autopilot disengage sound. I'm sure | there is more to this story than "crew mistake" as some | seem to imply here. | herpderperator wrote: | Why aren't they speaking English? I thought the communications | were always supposed to be in English. | robonerd wrote: | Many of the early innovators in aviation were French or in | France, and consequently, the French language has a lot of | influence in aviation. The terms _' mayday'_ and _' pan-pan'_ | both originate from French. Flight recorders around the world | are labelled in English and French. If English were not the | primary language for aviation, it would probably be French | instead. | tptacek wrote: | Air crews tend to speak their home languages in their home | countries, according to another video posted upthread. | throwaway0a5e wrote: | Because shit is hitting the fan as far as the pilots are | concerned and they're going to default to their native | language. Informing the tower of WTF is going on is | secondary. | rhcom2 wrote: | I too thought that but apparently it is not the case. | | https://internationalaviationhq.com/2019/11/23/language- | used... | | > The language used by Air Traffic Control is quite simple: | whichever the pilot chooses to use. Normally this is between | English and whatever the language is of the place that they | are flying to/from. Although English is the only official | language. | jeffrallen wrote: | Interesting. I listen to lots of ATC, and I'm fluent in | French. It was really noticable how much less legible | French is on the radio, stuff like AF zero un and AF zero | onze differ by so little you cannot distinguish them. | | Radio English has specific alternative prononciations, | which help avoid this, like "fife" and "niner". | giraffe_lady wrote: | Are you a native french speaker? I'm fluent in a couple | languages and all but my native one are insanely hard to | understand over radio. Even with the special | pronunciations there are a lot of nearly | indistinguishable sounds in english, and I'm not sure | those sounds are even apparent to a non-native speaker | who isn't specifically trained in them. It's very | possible they are using an equivalent but we can't hear | it without some practice. | t0mas88 wrote: | It comes with practice and ATC recordings sound way worse | than how it sounds in the aircraft. Because it's recorded | with a basic radio on the ground (causing much more | interference) instead of a much better one that's up in | the air with great reception. | sokoloff wrote: | This is very true. I'm a native English speaker and ~1200 | hour pilot. I have no trouble with the radio in the | airplane, but many of the VAS Aviation and other | recreations that do not come from released ATC tapes are | quite hard to understand. | | There's also a defined cadence and order for many | transmissions. If you read off the automated weather or a | clearance in the usual order, it's easy to transcribe it. | If you read it off out of order, it would sound the same | [and just as difficult] to a non-pilot, but would be much | more difficult for a pilot to write down. | GuB-42 wrote: | The official way of saying numbers in French is to spell | each digit separately and 1 is "unite". So 011 is zero, | unite, unite. | | However _if it is clear enough and there is no ambiguity_ | , the common way of saying numbers can be used, so zero | onze is acceptable. In normal conditions, no french | speaker will mistake "onze" for "un", the latter should | be "unite" anyways. | | The main problem with "un" is that it sounds like | "hein?", which means something like "huh?", the kind of | meaningless words that punctuate conversations without | even noticing. | jean_tta wrote: | French military radio procedures also have specific | pronunciations to disambiguate words. The fact that it is | not used (assuming it is not) in ATC radio is not a | feature of the French language. | PlatinumHarp wrote: | Per the ICAO: | | Pilots on international flights shall demonstrate language | proficiency in either English or the language used by the | station on the ground. | haunter wrote: | SERA.14015 Language to be used in air-ground communication | | Regulation (EU) 2016/1185 | | (a) The air-ground radiotelephony communications shall be | conducted in the English language or in the language normally | used by the station on the ground. | | https://www.easa.europa.eu/document-library/easy-access- | rule... | belter wrote: | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30935269 | ehaskins wrote: | Worth watching Juan Brown's reaction, he's a 777 pilot. | | https://youtu.be/cslSQB5mgyc | drcongo wrote: | Thanks. It's wild seeing what the web looks like for people | without ad blockers. | geocrasher wrote: | Juan Brown has an excellent explanation of what is known so far, | along with an analysis of the alarms heard in the background. | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cslSQB5mgyc | | Juan (an airline 777 pilot) also goes into why it is _just fine_ | that they were all speaking French in France. | buildsjets wrote: | I suspect that similar to the Asiana 777 at SFO, this will turn | out to be autopilot mode confusion on the part of the pilot, | coupled with a late charge of instruction from ATC, and failure | to monitor the flight path while trying to make the transition. | t0mas88 wrote: | Very very unlikely. Every pilot knows exactly how to disconnect | the autopilot, we train things like autopilot failure and | recently trim runaway (which is closely related) in the sim. | | Nobody would be screaming "stop it, stop it" instead of doing | something if the button was working fine. | selectodude wrote: | Air France pilots aren't known for their quality. | harpiaharpyja wrote: | The title could have been translated better, as one of the | comments on the source pages notes. It would be more accurate to | say that the aircraft was not responding to controls/control | inputs, scary stuff. | Animats wrote: | Too soon to say much. Comments so far are not very useful. Give | it a few days until the flight data recorders are read. | emerged wrote: | I stopped reading the comments when one was literally generated | using AI and said as much. | JPLeRouzic wrote: | Yesterday on France info, someone (a military pilot?) said the | black boxes were probably already read and he said that it's | probably not a generic problem of Boeing 777 ans as the | administration in charge would have already told it if it was | the case. | throwaway0a5e wrote: | >Too soon to say much. | | Not that I disagree but to many that means this is the perfect | time to earn cheap internet virtue points baselessly | speculating. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-04-08 23:00 UTC)