[HN Gopher] The case for LineageOS and the PinePhone ___________________________________________________________________ The case for LineageOS and the PinePhone Author : jleightcap Score : 100 points Date : 2022-04-18 20:27 UTC (2 hours ago) (HTM) web link (jleightcap.srht.site) (TXT) w3m dump (jleightcap.srht.site) | naoqj wrote: | Nah, my iPhone is okay. The day it stops working or getting | updated I will throw it away and buy another. | noahtallen wrote: | Or just trade it in -- you can still do that directly with | apple back to the 6s (which is 7 years old now). Used market | for iPhones is pretty good too; apple products retain resale | value better than others. | | Ultimately, given the above, I don't think ewaste is a big | problem with iPhones. Apple either refurbishes and sells it in | a market that still values older phones, or recycles it. | | I _also_ support right to repair and any legislative efforts to | force apple and others to stop deliberately making phones hard | to repair. But given the trade-in value and used markets, I'm | not sure why anyone would toss it in the trash or keep it in a | drawer! | makapuf wrote: | If it stops working or being updated, I'm not sure the value | of said nonfunctioning device will be great. It could be with | an open os if its functionality suits you. | scns wrote: | Apple will start selling self repair kits , in collaboration | with ifixit IIRC. | HidyBush wrote: | The funny thing is that PinePhone's problems almost entirely fall | on the software side. I think we can all agree that for basic | smartphone usage the base PinePhone is plenty overkill. How much | processing power do you need to send messages? Take and look at | moderate resolution photos? Render an OpenStreetMap tile? | | If somehow web browsers didn't exist the only downsides left for | the Pinephone would maybe be regarding high performance video | recording, some ML features and 3D games. | zwieback wrote: | I like the idea of a more open phone a lot but dispute the | "Smartphones are shit" premise. I think modern smart phones are | an unbelievably awesome value. Battery, display, wireless and | processing power have advanced at such an unbelievable rate that | we have something in our pockets that far exceeds predictions of | 20, 30, 100 years ago. The problem is that we don't want to pay | what it really costs to have such a great system so we sell our | souls and then endlessly gripe about it. | | Pinephone et al appeal to nerds and are a good reference case | about those tradeoffs but I'm doubtful they'll tip the scale. | atoav wrote: | I have a fairphone and had mostly Samsung Galaxy devices | before. | | I was blown away when a phone that I _bought_ didn 't actually | contain all kinds of bloatware. That this is not just forbidden | is beyond me. | usrn wrote: | As someone who had a few pre-smartphone PDAs: Smartphones | absolutely are high powered shit. On paper they're amazing but | the ecosystem limits you to scrolling instagram and only a | handfull of accepted IMs (iOS struggles with XMPP and IRC for | example, something even my hacked DS could do fine with 4MB of | ram and a 60Mhz ARM9.) | | Just editing fucking textfiles and copying it back to a normal | PC (that isn't a mac) is a real bitch. _Especially_ if you don | 't have an internet connection. It's almost as bad as a ti84+ | honestly, just a nicer screen, a couple cameras, and the | ability to send IM and email. In fact the TI84 could do things | iOS can't, I had compilers on mine. | yjftsjthsd-h wrote: | > Just editing fucking textfiles and copying it back to a | normal PC (that isn't a mac) is a real bitch. Especially if | you don't have an internet connection. It's almost as bad as | a ti84+ honestly. | | If you're on Android, I suggest looking at F-Droid; there | exist decent text editors and file managers, and failing all | else Termux manages to drag a decent amount of sanity in. | usrn wrote: | I had an Android. Every update made Termux less and less | capable (IIRC exec is very complex or impossible in a | recent one.) Now I have a Pinephone running a normal X11 DE | and I don't have to tolerate an ounce of stupidity. Sure | there are legitimate good faith defects in the software but | nothing is _intentionally_ broken just for the sake of it. | | ssh just works (the phone shipped with it preinstalled) | | vim just works | | scp just works | | All my X11 apps just work | | All the scripts and little tools I've built up over the | years just work (no fighting with namespaces when you | switch to root or other weird Android nonsense.) | | All my dev tools just work (and you might say "well why | would I ever want that on a phone? Because when you find a | bug in the OS or an app and you're sitting on transit you | can fix it _right then and there._ No making mental notes, | no filling out issues, just slow continuous improvement. | Something these mobile OSes will never have.) | | Desktop Firefox just works (even without touchscreen mode | it's usable. With xinput2 enabled it has nice gesture | support.) | | Want something to run in the background? Just open an Xterm | window, run it, and minimize it. Want it to start on boot? | Add it to the default runlevel or your X session just like | you would on any other computer. | | There's absolutely no reason for _any_ of the mobile | nonsense (there arguably never was) other than money for | the mobile OS vendors. | yjftsjthsd-h wrote: | > I think modern smart phones are an unbelievably awesome | value. Battery, display, wireless and processing power have | advanced at such an unbelievable rate that we have something in | our pockets that far exceeds predictions of 20, 30, 100 years | ago. | | From my quotes file: "It's amazing what we can build, it's | baffling what we have built." (jrumbut, | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25168187) Yes, the | hardware is amazing, and the software is sometimes amazing in | what it can do, but... If you have gobs of bandwidth (courtesy | of modern WiFi and LTE) and loads of RAM and storage and CPUs | that _scream_ (seriously, for a while my phone had more cores | than most of my laptops at a close clock speed) and a high- | quality touch-sensitive screen and a solid OS that makes it | easy to use the system even on that tiny screen, but you use it | to let apps bloat like there 's no tomorrow (Facebook comes to | mind), show ads even more efficiently, spy on the user at will, | and deliberately make things worse so people will pay more (ex. | YouTube), what have you really gained? | gentleman11 wrote: | Yet my battery life mysteriously cut to 1/4th its old value | (half a day, down from 2 days) after a recent Apple update. | That is pretty "shit" if you ask me. It's like a malware attack | that is trying to extort $1200 out of me | antisthenes wrote: | > I think modern smart phones are an unbelievably awesome | value. | | Smartphones are mostly toys, dark pattern traps for | procrastination. They are not productive tools, because you're | always going to be a fraction as productive as you are on a | full-size screen and keyboard. The only exception is maybe | photography, since the sensors are finally catching up to | entry-level DSLRs (optics still aren't, and probably never | will) | | Even most laptop users I know make use of several external | monitors and a keyboard and a dock for other accessories. | | > The problem is that we don't want to pay | | Not sure what you mean. Are you suggesting that end-consumers | should be willing to pay developers to not work at corporations | and instead focus on creating some kind of open-source dark- | pattern free paradise ecosystem for smartphones and other | portables? | cromka wrote: | > we don't want to pay what it really costs to have such a | great system so we sell our souls and then endlessly gripe | about it. | | Last time I checked, Apple does not subsidize their hardware | and actually earns majority their money off of the hardware | markup, not the services. | mathgeek wrote: | Plenty of carriers subsidize Apple hardware. Apple also has | https://www.apple.com/shop/iphone/iphone-upgrade-program | pwthornton wrote: | You are paying for it one way or the other. Either through | a direct hardware purchase or a higher monthly fee. | nicce wrote: | Still, while this might be true, you are decribing only 28% | of the world, and the opposite situation might be on control | elsewhere. Not to mention gaming devices such as PS, Nintendo | or Xbox, while it is a bit different thing. | | https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/worldwide | 1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote: | It is unclear whether the "Smartphones are shit" premise | applies to the hardware or the software, or both. I think | "smartphone" hardware is generally impressive. However | regarding the situation with software I think there is ample | reason to be unsatisified. Of course the owner not having full | control over the software can (and does) negate benefits of the | hardware to the owner, so I can see why someone might proclaim | "Smartphones are shit." It is generally great to own a small, | powerful computer, but if the owner only has partial control | over it, and unwillingly/unknowingly cedes substantial control | to others, it may be less great, maybe even troublesome | considering we see the so-called "smartphone" is being heavily | utilised by parties other than the owner as a means of | surveillance. | throw7 wrote: | The pixel 2 was the first smart phone I was completely happy | with. In fact, it's still my main phone right now. And I'm | someone who had a neo freerunner so I get what the OP is saying, | but at the end of day I need something that "Just Works". | | The main current problems are 1. support life 2. repairability 3. | non-competitive/closed software platform. | | I feel like Google had a chance at some point to "open" phone | hardware similar to the IBM PC situation... but I suppose, | realistically, the telecoms and qualcomm held those cards too | close to the vest. oh well. | hprotagonist wrote: | > Don't smartphones... kind of suck? How many times have you had | to replace a phone in the past 10 years? | | No? Twice, and both were upgrades for new features, not required | replacement due to parts failure or loss of software support. | slater wrote: | Looks like the server got hugged. | | Web archive link: | | https://web.archive.org/web/20220418204119/https://jleightca... | xanaxagoras wrote: | Gemini version still un-hugged: | gemini://jleightcap.srht.site/blog/openphone.gmi | fancyfredbot wrote: | There are repairable and upgradeable phones (Google search for | fairphone). If people really cared about this stuff companies | like fairphone would be dominating the market now. But people | don't buy those phones because they don't agree that "smartphones | are shit". They would rather have cheaper less upgradeable less | repairable phones. Not sure that's a problem which Pinephone are | solving? | gentleman11 wrote: | I used lineage for a couple of years. In practice, you need to | install a google play middleware to get certain apps you need, | Eg, the password manager or authenticator you need for work. | After installing these, I wonder if the lack of sandboxing means | my phone is basically owned. Facebook famously spied on / hacked | jailbroken years ago for example. | | Does lineage in that case really provide better privacy? Honestly | curious. I use an iPhone these days out of uncertainty | asciimov wrote: | The only solution to the e-waste problem is legislation. | | First we need to pass laws that force repair ability on these | devices. Like being able to replace a battery easily, think | slipping the back cover off easy. Force the unification of a | charging standard. Finally we need to nickle and dime these | companies for not making the devices more reusable. | elzbardico wrote: | Good luck expecting a capitalistic government to do that. | throwawayboise wrote: | This is the sort of thing I would have been all over and wasted | weeks on when I was younger. | | Now, sorry, I just don't care anymore. I don't live my life | through my phone so I buy cheap Android phones for a few hundred | dollars tops, and when they die they die. If it can make and | receive calls, texts, and run Google Maps navigation that is 90% | of what I need. | scarface74 wrote: | So a 2015 iPhone 6S runs the latest version of iOS. | | A 2013 iPhone 5s is still getting security updates. | | A 2011 iPhone 4s doesn't support LTE and soon won't be able to | connect to any network. Verizon is shutting down their CDMA | network as is Sprint. | | So how does open source make my life better? | | From a hardware side, why wouldn't I just take my phone to any | number of places to get the battery replaced? | benlivengood wrote: | Why is your cellular modem wedded inseparably to your pocket | computing device? I think that's the bigger picture. | scarface74 wrote: | Speaking of "bigger picture" how much larger is the phone | going to be without the integration? | | Even Google had to prematurely abandon support for one of its | phones because it couldn't get driver support for a cell | phone chip. | | On that same note, cellular standards are a minefield of | patents to the point that even when Apple starts producing | its own cellular chips, it will still owe Qualcomm patent | fees. | squarefoot wrote: | Good question. | | Some years ago I was thinking of a way to separate the | functions we insist in cramming into phones, making them in | the process nearly unusable for anything but consuming media | content and advertising. | | The idea was to have a small battery powered 3g (now 5G) | modem whose task was to route Internet connectivity to a | local PAN (low power WiFi, BT, etc) while allowing other PAN | devices talk each other. Other PAN devices would be: a very | small phone piece with minimal display and navigation keys to | receive calls and make ones picking contacts from the list; a | pocket keyboard to enter data; a small camera to take | pictures and movies; a tablet like device screen with touch, | a more capable OS and physical buttons for apps and games; a | belt-like holder with housings for all PAN devices. All PAN | devices would have their own battery along with contacts | exposed for recharging, so that their battery would be | recharged by a bigger one contained in the belt as soon as | they're snapped into their place in the belt; also all | devices would store their data in a central small NAS-like | device, also contained in the belt. The communication | protocol would allow for example to talk with someone using | the phone piece, then grab the camera, take a photo and have | it sent automatically to the person on the other side, | including geographic coordinates. ...etc. | | I spent some good hours wondering about this contraption, | then realized that, although very open to expansion, it would | also be extremely unpractical for most users, and eventually | let the idea die. | asojfdowgh wrote: | my pc is older than all of those numbers and runs fine, and I | expect roughly the same from the pinephone | | for my pc if I wanna use a sim card after old network shutdown, | all it is is swapping a single card on the mobo, perhaps | swapping out some antennas too | | for the pinephone, just swapping the baseboard without the rest | changing, or make/group hire someone to make a case with an | updated modem | | for battery, because you get a free battery to keep around for | emergencies when you buy a new one. | | I guess if you want to pay to fix your problems, fine, but not | everyone has the luxury to do that! | scarface74 wrote: | And the modern cellphone industry is a lot younger. | | Sure I can still use a Core 2 Duo 2.66Ghz laptop with 8GB | RAM, a nice 1920x1200 display, 250Gb hard drive, and gigabit | Ethernet from 2011 [1] in 2022. But could I use a computer | from 2001 in 2011? | | There is a reason that you can use a iPhone 6s from 2015 in | 2022. But an iPhone 3G from 2008 would have been unusable in | 2015. | | [1]https://www.ebay.com/itm/224241464162 | | This is similar. Mine was much higher specced. It was given | to me after a startup I worked for went out of business in | 2012. I used it to run Windows CE emulators while writing C# | Compact Franework applications. | hrbf wrote: | Just like the Linux desktop, alternative smartphones will forever | remain a tiny niche market for highly technical people. | Mainstream adoption can and will never happen given the current | state of hardware design and manufacturing. | elzbardico wrote: | And highly technical people with time to spare in an expensive | hobby. | fartcannon wrote: | Please elaborate on how the current state of hardware design | and manufacturing ensures that mainstream adoption will can and | will never happen. | atonalfreerider wrote: | OP might be confusing hardware design and manufacturing with | software availability. | | I have wanted to switch from Windows to Linux so many times, | and I would love to ditch my Google phone for PinePhone. But | for me, this _always_ gets back to the problem of well- | maintained software on Linux vs corporate systems. The last | time I tried switching to Linux a few months ago, all of the | programs I use on a regular basis had some impossibly | complicated setup or program-crashing bugs (that I reported) | that made me give up after a few days trying to migrate. | | Don't get me wrong, the OS (Ubuntu) installed just fine and I | was able to browse the internet (which should be sufficient | for most people). But anything beyond turning the phone on | and having everything self-setup is asking _way_ too much | from a mainstream user. Therefore, this argument is always an | economic one - not a conceptual one. You need a greedy | corporation that is incentivized to make a friction-free | experience for the end user. Too many well-meaning, but way | too smart for their own good developers think everyone else | thinks like them. | | https://xkcd.com/456/ | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rlg4K16ujFw | hrbf wrote: | > You need a greedy corporation that is incentivized to make | a friction-free experience for the end user. Too many well- | meaning, but way too smart for their own good developers | think everyone else thinks like them. | | That goes for software as well as hardware. Plus, hardware | needs a certain quality and price point, both of which are in | short supply. Everyone who's tried designing and shipping a | quality hardware product at a reasonable price in a | reasonable time frame has experienced that. Even if you | magically could solve one of the issues, you'd never be able | to ship the sheer volume to satisfy demand. And that's all | before even attempting to create a smooth and complete | software experience, not to speak of software quality and | security issues. | zaik wrote: | If I get the usability of today's Linux desktops I'm completely | fine with that. I don't care if my setup is widespread or not | if it works for me. | LargoLasskhyfv wrote: | Why bother with LineageOS on the PinePhone, when there is a new | edition of Maemo-Leste? | | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31069729 | jokethrowaway wrote: | Lineage is OK, but I'd rather not run Java on a mobile. | | The Nokia N9 is the only phone I've ever wanted and M$ killed it. | ashirviskas wrote: | I did not see PostmarketOS mentioned (https://postmarketos.org/), | which tries to solve the OS problem that Android (and LineageOS) | does not really solve. | hilbert42 wrote: | _" Don't smartphones... kind of suck?"_ | | Yes, they absolutely do. | | _" How many times have you had to replace a phone in the past 10 | years? Do you have a drawer of random crap with a growing pile of | phones,<...>"_ | | Answer: 'many' in both instances. | | Where possible, I root my phones and install LineageOS or other | similar 'open' O/S. In instances where there's no LineageOS | available or where LineageOS doesn't provide a full | implementation of the phone's original software (in that some | essential feature that I require is either missing or doesn't | work properly under LineageOS) then I still root the original | OEM's O/S and then deGgoogle it the best I can--that is, nuke all | of Google's apps as well as all of the OEM's junkware apps then | install GApps as well as various alternatives to Google's | software, etc. including a firewall to stop certain apps getting | access to ads. | | I always install two essential apps, F-Droid (store) and Aurora | Store which spoofs access to Google's Playstore. | | _Note: Be very careful in how you logon to Google 's sites (that | is if you still use them, Gmail for instance (luckily, I don't). | Failure to take great care will mean that you'll be deemed by | Google of having violated its terms of service and your account | will be revoked or suspended!!_ | | Most of you who will be reading this already know all these | details, so the most significant thing I have to say is that I | _NO_ longer advocate to my friends that they ought to root their | phones. I even include my many technical friends who could easily | root their phones if they wanted to do so in this rule--because | it 's just not worth the risk of aliening them when things stuff | up (as they often do) when phones are rooted. | | Diehards like me have either no problems or they're problems I | can easily live with. The trouble, however, is that the Google | ecosystem is so addictive and all embracing that even many savvy | techies find that they cannot live without certain features, or | alternatively, they're so engrossed in using their apps that they | haven't the time to even look for alternatives let alone take | sufficient effort to evaluate them properly. | | In my opinion, it's this utterly strong grip that Google has on | its users that's the key issue--and major problem! Whilst rooting | and LineageOS are great for the likes of you and me, they're not | suitable for most people (as terrible as that me be). Period! | | I'm of the strong opinion the only way around this dilemma is for | some big Maverick manufacturer to manufacture a high performance, | super-easy-to-use 'Fairphone'-like 'clone' that has even better | performance than the current crop of non-Google alternatives--and | it should also be even easier to use than current phones. Only | when there's sufficient momentum from sales will we see other | manufactures take up the challenge and only then will we'll get | effective competition. | | At present however, I'd not even give my wish a snowball's | chance! | | Moreover, frankly, I'm concerned that the current lot of | manufactures that make Google alternatives is just too small to | make any appreciable difference. That said, I wish them well--and | few people I'd reckon would be happier than me if my assessment | turned out to be totally wrong. | Kerrick wrote: | > Don't smartphones... kind of suck? How many times have you had | to replace a phone in the past 10 years? Do you have a drawer of | random crap with a growing pile of phones? | | I simply cannot relate with this hook. | | > Don't smartphones... kind of suck? | | No, smartphones are kinda magical. They take better snapshots | than my first DSLR, they play games at higher fidelity than my | first gaming PC, and they're general purpose computing devices | with better battery life, connectivity, and portability than my | first laptop. | | > How many times have you had to replace a phone in the past 10 | years? | | Twice. My first smartphone was the Nexus 4 way back in 2012. I | moved on to iPhone with iPhone 6s, and then upgraded to iPhone 12 | Mini last year because I was enraptured by the faster | performance, better camera, and small size. | | > Do you have a drawer of random crap with a growing pile of | phones? | | I definitely have a random crap drawer, but it contains no | phones. My Nexus 4 went on to become a dev testing device until | it was resold for parts. My iPhone 6s still sits in my drone bag | so I can use it to control the drone while shooting other video | on my 12 Mini. | | --- | | I dunno, I just can't relate to the problems presented. Maybe | it's because I have only gotten top-of-the-line devices from | companies who promised software longevity. Maybe it's because I | didn't feel financially well off enough to jump on the upgrade | cycle (until recently) and made do with older/slower devices for | longer than most people. But the world of smartphones, from my | perspective, kicks ass. | robbyking wrote: | > How many times have you had to replace a phone in the past 10 | years? Twice. | | Me too! And I'm a mobile engineer! My partner only recently | updated their iPhone 6s, and I upgrade when the need arises, | not when there's something new and shinny on the market. | chasil wrote: | Running Lineage on AT&T has drastically reduced the number of | compatible phones due to the hard requirement for VoLTE | (voice over LTE) on a small set of authorized phones. | | I had just upgraded my OnePlus 3 to a 5 when this was | announced, so I purchased a Pixel 3a XL by the deadline | (which fortunately has VoLTE in AOSP). | | I moved my phone to Verizon for a few reasons, but Lineage | struggles with VoLTE and this is a big reason for old phones | in a drawer. | usrn wrote: | >they play games at higher fidelity | | What games? Mobile games (outside just a few exceptions that | prove the rule) are absolute dogshit that make the Debian repos | look like Steam. None of them really need the hardware anyway. | There are probably plenty of "slot" games on ticalc.org (though | by ratio there are far more games actually worth playing I'm | sure.) | throwaway71271 wrote: | > general purpose computing devices | | not so general, you can pretty much only run programs allowed | by the mothership, and if some neural net decides you can be | locked out of your phone forever | arbitrage wrote: | You are purposely taking the well known and understood term | "general purpose computing device" out of context and using | it as a polemical statement to push an agenda. | mort96 wrote: | Nah. It's not outrageous to say that a criteria for being a | "general purpose computing device" is that I should be able | to run whatever code I want on it. | | I say this as someone who's an iPhone user, and I'm | perfectly happy with my iPhone. But I wouldn't call it a | general purpose computing device honestly. The Android | phone I used many years ago, for all its flaws, would have | fit that description much better IMO. | feanaro wrote: | > It's not outrageous to say that a criteria for being a | "general purpose computing device" is that I should be | able to run whatever code I want on it. | | In fact, it is outrageous _not_ to say so. | throwaway71271 wrote: | "general purpose" for me means I can set the program | counter somewhere and run my code | | in general the term vaguely means 'this computer can | perform many different tasks' but can an iphone perform a | task you want, but apple did not allow? | davidcbc wrote: | Yes, you can run your own code on an iPhone. | | You can't run arbitrary binaries, but you can run | whatever code you want. | jrm4 wrote: | You _completely_ lost me at "they're general purpose computing | devices." | | This is not even remotely a reasonable definition of today's | smartphones. | elzbardico wrote: | The same here. Bought a 12 Pro Max last year, expect to still | be using it by 2024/25 | mikece wrote: | Why LineageOS and not GrapheneOS? I have a Pixel 4a with | GrapheneOS and really like it. The lack of Firebase Cloud | Messaging (Google's push notifications service) isn't an issue | for personal usage; for work I still use an iPhone because I | don't want to put things like MS Teams on Graphene OS. | | As for PinePhone: it's interesting that this article puts | LineageOS and PinePhone together since the latter cannot run the | former. Speaking for myself, it would be nice if I could buy a | phone from someone other than Google to install and use a de- | Googled form of Android. | seanw444 wrote: | I wish GrapheneOS was available on OnePlus. | SubzeroCarnage wrote: | Take a look at my DivestOS project, I support OnePlus 1-7 | devices. | nabaraz wrote: | The choice is between GrapheneOS + Sandboxed Google play vs | LineageOS + MicroG. | | If you care too much about privacy, GrapheneOS is the way to | go. If you want a balance between privacy and usability, | LineageOS is the way to go. Also, GrapheneOS only supports | Pixel phones. | | I have tried CalyxOS but there are too many issues. | 0rdinant wrote: | Sanboxed Play Services nets more app compatibility than | LineageOS+MicroG, I don't understand your usability argument. | mikece wrote: | By "sandboxed Google Play" do you mean using the Aurora app? | | Coming from iPhone, something I keep forgetting is the full | support for PWA apps on Graphene OS. I wish there were PWA | versions of apps like Signal, Wire, ProtonMail, and more; so | much cleaner to update the app through a deliberate refresh | than going through a middle-man service like F-Droid. | tortasaur wrote: | They support actual Google Play Services in a sandbox: | https://grapheneos.org/faq#google-services | dtx1 wrote: | > If you care too much about privacy, GrapheneOS is the way | to go | | Not so sure about that. If you care about SECURITY than | GrapheneOS is pretty much the best choice on the market, | comparable only to iOS or bare Android on Pixel Phones. | Everyone else isn't even reasonable to compare against it. | | But wether it's more private with sandboxed Google Play | Services vs Lineage OS and MicroG or iOS is not such an | obvious choice to me. | emteycz wrote: | If you want privacy, don't install anything Google or | microG. Surprisingly many apps from Play store (via Aurora | or sideloaded) still work (not all features though) - but | if you want privacy, don't even use Play store via Aurora. | foresto wrote: | > Why LineageOS and not GrapheneOS? | | One problem with GrapheneOS is that it only supports a tiny | handful of devices, and only for few years (at best) per | device. A lot of people can't afford to keep buying Pixel | phones on that schedule, and some who can afford it find the | e-waste unappealing. | | This isn't exactly the project's fault. It's more a side effect | of an industry that prevents customers from securely installing | an OS on their own hardware, and/or refuses to provide firmware | security updates beyond a rather short time frame. | | I hope that changes. I love what GrapheneOS attempts to do, but | at the moment, I think using it is unreasonably hard on the | budget and the environment. | azalemeth wrote: | The thing that annoys me about GrapheneOS is that it is not | possible to install a sudo binary or to root the phone. I get | that this is a Good Thing from a security perspective, but I | don't like the fact that I can't install AdAway for resource- | less adblocking with an edited hosts file, the ability to SSH | into my phone with a certificate, or the ability to make good | "nandroid" backups. I also philosophically like the fact that | I'm in control, ultimately, of my device and if I want to send | an app fake data, I can do so. The GrapheneOS developers have | quite sternly said that they won't ever develop a rootable | version of the OS, and that makes me sad. | SubzeroCarnage wrote: | You can always compile it with any such changes baked in. | nimbius wrote: | tell ya what i really wanna see from pinephone: AGPS lockdown. | | Currently ive learned from HN there are numerous 3GPP protocols | that provide direct, clandestine monitoring of the GPS location | of the phone. the feature lives unchallenged in the firmware, so | if you can give me a phone that _cannot_ report its GPS data to | the carrier without my knowledge, id be ever grateful. | tinus_hn wrote: | I don't think the 911 rules allow such a phone to be sold in | the US. | mikece wrote: | Does the carrier sell this information? There are many/most | apps that I don't allow to get location data and that's | because, in my judgement, they don't need it and I don't trust | them not to sell it: I can opt out. | | But if the carriers are actively gathering my location | information and are selling it without giving me a way to opt | out then perhaps I need to think about my phone as something I | turn off most of the time. | | Which reminds me: can you still get pager service? | [deleted] | heavyset_go wrote: | Carriers sell location data, yes. | Ardon wrote: | Cell carriers would generally be tracking you via cell tower | triangulation, which can't be rebuffed with software, but | that's why the PinePhone has a switch to physically power off | the modem (and thus antenna) which does prevent that | tracking. | asojfdowgh wrote: | IIRC you can flash the modem for pinephones, so it would be | possible to achieve what you want in the future | SubzeroCarnage wrote: | My DivestOS: - removes most Qualcomm location | blobs - removes carrier OMA-DM blobs - doesn't send | IMEI to SUPL server - only allows SUPL override when an | emergency call is active - disables A-GPS MSA mode | - and shows a notification when location is requested via SUPL | xanaxagoras wrote: | This looks really cool. If sunfish changes from "Broken" I'll | give it a try. | opencl wrote: | You can install your own firmware on the Pinephone modem. | | https://github.com/Biktorgj/pinephone_modem_sdk | phh wrote: | I don't understand what is it you call "AGPS lockdown" | | 3GPP is usually used in the context of AGPS to help GPS get a | lock, by using the ID of the tower your 3GPP UE is connected | to. There is one such tower, and there is simply no way to hide | it. It is a technical requirement for your carrier to have an | approximate location of your equipment. Even if they wished | they didn't have it, they would still need it. | | A phone doesn't have its GPS turned on permanently, because it | eats a lot of battery, and sure some carriers and some OEMs | have some backdoors (Sprint last I've seen) to request a GPS | position, though AFAIK it can't be enabled in most cases. Is | this what you're talking about? As far as I know, taking a | "stupid" modem (Say an exynos one), and putting a custom ROM | should make you safe from it, because from what I've seen, | those backdoors are done in Samsung Android framework | | If your question is about E911 (which is lockdown to... well... | 911 calls), can't say that I know much about it, but I think | what I said on the previous point still applies. On a dumb | modem | | BTW, PinePhone's modem being a Qualcomm, it is very "smart", | and does a lot of things behind Application Processor's back. A | Mediatek, or better an Exynos modem is much better to that | regard, and would be preferable. (but there is no pinephone on | non-qc modem) | nemothekid wrote: | > _give me a phone that cannot report its GPS data to the | carrier without my knowledge_ | | Does this work by reporting GPS data? I thought this data was | acquired with cellular triangulation. | kjellsbells wrote: | that feels like a legal hurdle not a technical one. The carrier | is obliged by the regulator (eg US FCC) to be able to locate | the phone to within a few meters of accuracy without relying on | user action in order to meet their commitments around emergency | service. | | The problem here isnt the collection of data, its the abuse of | that data whether its sale to data brokers or over enthusiastic | law enforcement using GPS pings on flimsy pretexts to sweep | people up. | josephcsible wrote: | I'd totally use a more open-source phone OS, if only there | weren't communications and banking apps that check to make sure | you're running an unmodified major manufacturer's OS, and refuse | to run if they find any evidence that you aren't. | solenoidalslide wrote: | Which major banking and communications companies refuse to let | you access their services via browser? | | This is when we absolutely need to name and shame. | josephcsible wrote: | Snapchat refuses to let you access their services _at all_ | via browser. And most banks offer you a restricted set of | functionality via browser, e.g., no taking pictures of checks | to deposit (in fact, I can 't think of any banks that _do_ | let you do that via browser). | solenoidalslide wrote: | What a wonderfully ripe area for disruption. | criddell wrote: | You're going to disrupt Snap by writing a more free | version of it? | fartcannon wrote: | You have to do the open source phone first, and help | convince others, before the banks and snapchats will | support you, not the other way around. It's normally a | small sacrifice, but the payoff is fundamental to a free | future. | josephcsible wrote: | You make it sound like the banks and Snapchat would have | to do work for them to support me, when the opposite is | true. The community already has compatibility layers that | work for most apps, but those companies go out of their | way to do extra work to make sure their apps _don 't_ | work in them. | fartcannon wrote: | Yeah they're shitty. That's why maybe you shouldn't | financially support ecosystems that you don't like just | to use apps that are actively hostile to you. You don't | need those things. | josephcsible wrote: | The problem with not using Snapchat is the network | effect: you miss out on socialization when you're the | only one in your friend group that isn't on it. | | The problem with not using those banks is that I don't | think there's any banks that aren't hostile like that, | and keeping all of your money under a mattress is a worse | choice than compromising on this principle. | fartcannon wrote: | This is HN so I'll be slaughtered for this reply, but | someone definitely tried to fix the banks issue a little | over a decade ago. | | But yeah, fair enough! I choose to just not chat to those | people, but I totally get that it's not that easy for | some. | imchillyb wrote: | hundchenkatze wrote: | Snapchat is in control of all the things you listed. | You're agreeing with the person you're insulting. | josephcsible wrote: | How is having no web-app or web-client (and banning you | if you use any third-party client) meaningfully different | from refusing to let you access anything in the browser? | arbitrage wrote: | It's different in that it allows a contrarian farkwad (or | someone with O.D.D.) to disagree with anyone they wish. | scns wrote: | Snapchat works on google free /e/ OS. | josephcsible wrote: | Snapchat makes you pass SafetyNet to be able to log in, | and passing SafetyNet requires a signed response from | Google's servers. Are you sure it isn't only working with | a workaround like signing in on a stock Android device, | and then copying the authentication information over? | jokethrowaway wrote: | After the nth round of european regulations, plenty of banks | started requiring a smartphone app installed on Android or | iOS as 2 factor authentication | josephcsible wrote: | What regulation requires Android or iOS in particular? | Findecanor wrote: | There is rather a _lack_ of regulations that would | require banks to provide two-factor authentication in a | platform-neutral or technology-neutral manner. | | Instead of two-factor-only apps, we get "electronic ID" | that are legally like a photo ID, and which are also used | for making payments from the phone itself. | | In fact, some of these rely on security of the OS it is | running on, and not on the use of any trusted platform | modules ("secure enclave", TrustZone, etc.) or on any | mathematical proof. Therefore, un-rooted recent versions | of Android and iOS is compulsory in practice, because | those are the only environments that are secure enough. | | And BTW, the electronic ID are very convenient for the | banks. If they get social-engineered and the banks' API | abused, the banks can conveniently blame the victims -- | because it's a legal _ID_ and not merely a login helper | or debit card, and you 're not supposed to be "careless" | with an _ID_. | fancyfredbot wrote: | Wrong question. It's the market which requires this, not | the regulation. | ForHackernews wrote: | You could try /e/OS? https://e.foundation/leaving-apple- | improved-compatibility-wi... | | > But while you can install many apps on /e/OS, we know that | some apps are not working properly today: banking apps or games | for example, and this has been painful for many of you. | | > Our team has been hard at work to improve app compatibility | in the last few months, and we will be rolling out improved app | compatibility with the 0.23 release end of March. This means | that apps like Pokemon Go, Ma banque (Credit Agricole) and many | others will work now fine on /e/OS. | josephcsible wrote: | Thanks; I'll definitely have to give that a try. And I'm | quite curious what workaround they came up with. | andrew_ wrote: | The (my) case against PinePhone is the case: it's not waterproof. | gentleman11 wrote: | No phones were until recently and it was fine | nicoburns wrote: | I dream of the day Apple open up their iPhones to alternative | OS's. It'll probably never happen, but they've shown with their | Apple Silicon macs that it's possible to do without compromising | the security of the device. And given the progress on Asahi Linux | and how closely related the A series and M series processors, | half the drivers would be already written. | ForHackernews wrote: | Obligatory shoutout for /e/OS - https://e.foundation/ | | It's a more integrated, user-friendly LineageOS fork that uses | microG to replace Google services. | howmayiannoyyou wrote: | On a very related topic I received my Purism phone recently. | Worked great... once. Now it's bricked after recharging. I | haven't had time to reach out for support and certainly need to | do that, but after waiting a very long time for the phone I'm too | demoralized to make this a priority. Perhaps I should've bought | the Pinephone, or installed Lineage on my old pixel... but time | is a scarce commodity. | chunk_waffle wrote: | Its sad how utterly terrible the Pusrim phones are, can they | even make a _phone calls_ reliably? | fsflover wrote: | Yes, it can: https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community- | wiki/-/wikis/Freque.... | fsflover wrote: | Ask for help on the Purism forum. The community there is really | helpful: https://forums.puri.sm. | dleslie wrote: | If the PinePhone had a halfway decent camera I would still use it | as a daily driver; but because I had to pocket a separate camera | for the few months that I did use it, the device now collects | dust in a drawer. | fsflover wrote: | Perhaps you may be interested in Librem 5 then. | mariusor wrote: | I wish Sailfish OS had a mention. If someone tries to escape the | Android/iOS duopoly, it's probably the most mature linux based | distribution out there. | | It's not fully open source that's true, but it can be daily | driven on a number of modern(ish) compatible hardware. The most | prominent of them being some of Sony's Xperia's line(official) | and a slew of other older devices through the efforts of a | community of enthusiasts. | spaniard89277 wrote: | They claim to be compatible with android apps in their site, | how true is that? | | For me, the problem with phones is the sense that you're just | one step away of having no more OS updates, or updates making | it slower, or basically getting locked-in in some way. | | Phones feel very different to computers. | saidinesh5 wrote: | They have an Android compatibility layer, which lets you run | a lot of Android apps and adds various integrations with | sailfish os: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6Amrr766crc | | The integration with Android apps, when it works, is fairly | seamless. | | It is kind of like using wine to run windows applications on | Linux. Sometimes things may not work, but otherwise it's | fine. | mariusor wrote: | They support android apps from a custom repository and from | f-droid. I think most of them work in the limit of being | compatible with the android version that Alien Dalvik on the | device supports (the latest models like Sony Xperia 10 II | support version 10). However most of them suffer from not | having access to Google services, but then again, that's | something a person that wants to de-google would expect I | think. | ryukafalz wrote: | From a US perspective, the lack of group messaging makes it a | non-starter for me, unfortunately. My friends and family just | expect me to be able to receive group messages. It's not | optional these days for a lot of people. | | I used to use it and enjoyed doing so, but I'd hoped Jolla | would open source more of it as they said early on that they | were considering. | ThatMedicIsASpy wrote: | I'm waiting to retire my windows phone. The stopwatch has been | running for 2580 days already. But that happens when the Xperia | 10 III will get sailfish support ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-04-18 23:00 UTC)