[HN Gopher] California grid set record of 97% renewable power on...
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       California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3
        
       Author : lizparody23
       Score  : 160 points
       Date   : 2022-04-20 21:30 UTC (1 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.solarpowerworldonline.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.solarpowerworldonline.com)
        
       | aatharuv wrote:
       | What I wonder is the breakdown of sources.
       | 
       | Solar? Hydro electric? (I wonder if roof top solar is included
       | here).
       | 
       | Also, note this was over a very short period of time. And there's
       | still night time, when solar doesn't operate, except for whatever
       | got stored into batteries.
        
         | outside1234 wrote:
         | Consumed roof top solar would not be included (but the portion
         | put into the grid would) - which makes this number even more
         | impressive
        
       | no-dr-onboard wrote:
       | Disclaimer: this comment is not about environmentalism or even
       | the environmental impact. I'm not wading in those waters with HN.
       | 
       | It's difficult to see this as a net positive given the financial
       | hardship brought about to even make this headline a reality (note
       | that even the headline is misleading and requires context).
       | 
       | It's a bit like the person who goes out and purchases a vehicle,
       | spends countless hours away from his family working on it, takes
       | out additional loans to modify it, crashes it, repairs it and
       | then wins 2nd place at the local meetup. You have to ask
       | yourself, at what point was this worth it?
        
         | jhgb wrote:
         | What financial hardship? Pretty much all the other pathways are
         | even more expensive, either in externalities or in internalized
         | costs. There really are not that many realistic options that
         | remain open (at least in the US).
        
         | gibolt wrote:
         | Yes, it is. Solar pays for itself in raw kWh over ~8 years,
         | probably even better at utility scale which negotiates huge
         | panel purchases. Batteries cost more, but can apply stored
         | power when they can earn the most (during peak), reducing
         | viability of polluting alternatives.
         | 
         | The cherry on top is that all future energy uses no more
         | material and creates no more pollution, with materials mostly
         | all recyclable at end of life. Over a 30 year horizon, fossil
         | fuel infra cannot compete.
        
         | Cyclical wrote:
         | I'm having trouble understanding how you can separate the
         | cost/benefit analysis of renewable energy from
         | environmentalism. The entire point is that the reasons for
         | hitting these goals are not purely economic (in the short term
         | - long term, running out of fossil fuels in a fossil fuel
         | economy does not tend to be good for the economy.) The
         | sentiment that aiming for full renewable supply is too
         | expensive to be worth it feels like it misses the mark on why
         | we're doing it.
        
       | lauv0x wrote:
        
       | tppiotrowski wrote:
       | > More than 15,000 MW of grid-connected solar power capacity and
       | almost 8,000 MW of wind are now online.
       | 
       | > The system currently has more than 2,700 MW of storage, most of
       | it in lithium-ion batteries, and that number is projected to grow
       | to about 4,000 MW by June 1.
       | 
       | Storage should be in MWh I assume? Anyways, those batteries can
       | hold 11 minutes of peak solar power production.
       | 
       | But by June 1st, battery capacity is set to go up by 50% while
       | new solar production will only go up about by 5%.
        
         | renewiltord wrote:
         | It's battery storage as a power source so it's about its
         | delivery capacity. 2.7 GW of storage means when the time comes
         | it can deliver at 2.7 GW.
        
         | tedsanders wrote:
         | No, it's common to measure storage with MW when you're talking
         | about dispatchable power.
         | 
         | For example, a 10 MW battery can replace a 10 MW gas generator
         | (assuming it has enough capacity to cover the relevant peak,
         | which is usually a fair assumption because that's what they're
         | designed for). If you only know a battery has 20 MWh, that's
         | not enough information to know what equivalent amount of
         | generation or ramp it can replace.
        
       | polote wrote:
       | > In another sign of progress toward a carbon-free power grid.
       | 
       | This is clearly not the case, this is a sign of progress of
       | carbon free production capacity but not the grid. It doesn't mean
       | we should not be happy about it. But we need to stop mixing
       | everything
        
       | pmalynin wrote:
       | Then why is it so damn expensive. Honestly one of the reasons I
       | can't wait to own a house is to purchase enough solar panels and
       | batteries to give a huge middle finger to PG&E and go off-grid
        
         | GloriousKoji wrote:
         | As a Californian I think the electricity itself is pretty cheap
         | at ~9cents/kwh but the total delivery costs are 3x that.
        
           | [deleted]
        
         | ejb999 wrote:
         | Every time I do the math, any money I would spend on a solar
         | system, would be better invested in an energy utility and just
         | collect the dividend to pay my electric bill.
         | 
         | If you want to do solar for the environment, fine - I won't
         | fault you - but if you are doing it to save/make money, there
         | are better places to invest.
        
         | ceeplusplus wrote:
         | It's honestly insane how PG&E is going bankrupt despite
         | charging 35 cents/kWh. Where is all the money going??
        
           | not2b wrote:
           | Paying damages from all the wildfires they have caused.
        
           | Trias11 wrote:
        
           | bryan0 wrote:
           | one place:
           | 
           | > PG&E Corp. put a cost estimate of more than $25 billion
           | Thursday on its effort to plant thousands of miles of power
           | lines underground in an effort to tamp down wildfire risks.
           | 
           | https://www.sacbee.com/news/california/fires/article25824965.
           | ..
        
             | jimbob45 wrote:
             | Shame that they're not getting better publicity as a result
             | of this. Our main complaint about the internet companies is
             | that they pocket the money meant to speed up networks for
             | their subscribers. This is exactly what utility companies
             | ought to do to prepare for the future.
        
               | ceejayoz wrote:
               | They're doing it because they went bankrupt over $30B in
               | liability from not preparing in this fashion.
               | 
               | https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/01/business/energy-
               | environme...
               | 
               | > PG&E sought bankruptcy protection in January 2019 after
               | accumulating an estimated $30 billion in liability for
               | fires started by its poorly maintained equipment. One of
               | the blazes, the 2018 Camp Fire, killed scores of people
               | and destroyed the town of Paradise.
               | 
               | It wasn't voluntary, really.
        
               | bcrosby95 wrote:
               | A large part of why they're doing it because they're
               | guaranteed a certain percentage return on investments.
               | There's ways to fix this problem without a $25bil
               | investment, but you won't make nearly as much profit on
               | that.
        
         | haliskerbas wrote:
         | I've been trying to do the math for my own home, are solar
         | panels actually cash flow positive, once you account for
         | efficiency decrease overtime etc.? It always seemed like one
         | barely breaks even in 2 decades
        
           | swid wrote:
           | Sounds about right for the power only, but you also probably
           | get a battery with it to deal with power outages... I don't
           | know how to price the utility of that, but it's why I bought
           | solar.
        
             | BolexNOLA wrote:
             | How long have you been able to stretch that battery out
             | when your power is out? Don't have a point to make or
             | anything, I'm just curious. I hadn't really considered
             | that.
        
             | RosanaAnaDana wrote:
             | 35k for a 8kwh, 24kwh battery storage system. ~15k in
             | credits?
             | 
             | Solar loan ends up at 175 a month. I got in before the
             | recent ridiculousness around fuel prices. I'm sure I'm net
             | positive at this point but haven't done the precise math.
             | 
             | One addition I'm considering, is some bitcoin/ crypto rigs
             | to take care of excess power during the peaks. Even with my
             | batteries, I produce a lot of extra power and don't get
             | paid spit from the power company, and what I do get I can
             | only use as credit.
             | 
             | https://www.nicehash.com/profitability-
             | calculator/-bitmain-a...
             | 
             | Thing costs ~1.25k, but at ~$10/ day it will pay its self
             | off in a quarter.
        
           | malchow wrote:
           | Solar in California is often breakeven after 4 to 7 years.
           | Enphase enables microgrid systems, and the IQ8 can keep your
           | house powered even when the grid is down, and even without
           | batteries -- something never before possible.
           | 
           | https://enphase.com/sites/default/files/2021-10/IQ8SP-
           | DS-000...
           | 
           | Worth nothing that PG&E is working with CA Democrats to try
           | to kill rooftop solar. They want renewables, but only if
           | distributed using their (badly operated and overpriced) grid.
           | [1]
           | 
           | [1] https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2022/02/11/coalition-
           | received-1-...
        
           | bombcar wrote:
           | It can be cash flow positive if you do a bunch of the work
           | yourself and plan accordingly.
           | 
           | https://www.sevarg.net/tag/solar/
           | 
           | From my point of view the nice thing about it is reducing or
           | eliminating recurring expenses.
           | 
           | Once your recurring expenses drop below passive income you
           | are pretty well set.
        
           | danans wrote:
           | It depends on a whole lot of factors. In a sunny place like
           | CA with good solar incentive programs, assuming good southern
           | to southwestern exposure, they are cash positive after about
           | 6 years [1]. In Wisconsin, 11 years [2]. In Washington State,
           | 15 years [3]
           | 
           | 1. https://www.energysage.com/solar-
           | panels/ca/#:~:text=For%20Ca....
           | 
           | 2. https://www.energysage.com/solar-
           | panels/wi/#:~:text=In%20Wis....
           | 
           | 3. https://www.energysage.com/solar-
           | panels/wa/#:~:text=In%20Was....
        
             | sib wrote:
             | Yeah, so far, with the rooftop system we put in about 1.5
             | years ago (Los Angeles), we are tracking to ~5.5 year
             | payback period, so this feels right.
        
           | gxt wrote:
           | Even if only just break even after 20years, it is an
           | acceptable cost for freedom of mind and autonomy.
        
         | jweir wrote:
         | You do not pay market rate for electricity.
         | 
         | Texas does allow consumers to pay market rate for electricity,
         | you may have heard about last winter people getting bills in
         | the several thousands of dollars when prices spiked.
         | 
         | CAISO was 97% renewable for only a moment, not the entire day.
         | 
         | The 3rd was a Sunday, not a peak day.
         | 
         | And the average price for energy for the day was $30.77 (day
         | head) $27.1 (real time) for TH_SP15_GEN-APND (per MWh)
        
           | samkater wrote:
           | My understanding, to put it in AWS EC2 pricing terms, is that
           | we do not pay the market "spot" rate for electricity
           | (variable, often less than what you might pay elsewhere, but
           | could spike up) - which is what Texas allowed. Typically we
           | pay the "on demand" rate which is fixed. Large energy users
           | probably negotiate "reserved" pricing.
           | 
           | My point being, we pay the market rate, those massive hikes
           | are just built-in over a long period of time.
        
             | ajross wrote:
             | That only works if the demand curve (the price the market
             | will bear at given levels of shortage) and the cost curve
             | (the actual price to produce the energy) match up.
             | 
             | In fact they never do, especially in this market. Texas
             | producers weren't spending 100x (or whatever) more to
             | produce that electricity, that spike just reflected the
             | amount that customers who "had to keep the lights on" were
             | willing to bear. In fact total utility costs are basically
             | flat. They didn't hire 100x more employees or work 100x
             | more hours to get things running again. They didn't have to
             | build 100x more substations, etc...
             | 
             | And that's why spot pricing is a disaster for consumers. It
             | creates a perverse incentive for producers to _reduce_
             | supply.
        
               | JamesBarney wrote:
               | The economic reason people should be paying 100x the cost
               | to supply is to incentivize people to build spare
               | capacity.
        
               | notch656a wrote:
               | Generally agree although there is something a bit
               | sinister about a market where you don't really know the
               | price until after you've bought the product. IMO giving a
               | utility provider blank check is like raw-dogging cheap
               | hookers every night and then being surprised when your
               | luck runs out.
               | 
               | If people WANT this kind of contract I hope that their
               | consent is an informed one. I'm not one to stop people
               | from engaging in their own reckless behavior.
        
               | notch656a wrote:
               | When you have an outage, it's possible the instantaneous
               | cost of electricity is in fact 10x/100x/infinitely more
               | than baseline cost. Looking at it as 100x more employees
               | is the wrong direction. If you're producing 1/100th the
               | electricity for 5 minutes due to power outtages but you
               | still have to pay all your employees during that time,
               | your instantaneous cost (per unit energy) actually are
               | proportionally higher.
        
               | shiftpgdn wrote:
               | There are currently no residential consumers in Texas on
               | spot rate plans since the only provider had their license
               | revoked. https://www.cbsnews.com/dfw/news/ercot-shuts-
               | down-wholesale-...
        
           | [deleted]
        
           | shiftpgdn wrote:
           | You should keep in mind that only one provider allowed end
           | users to pay spot rate and ERCOT revoked their license to
           | operate after the freeze where power rates went to $4000/MWh.
           | The average Texan (excluding people in East Texas who are on
           | the Eastern power grid, and people in Austin) buy their
           | energy on a 12 month contract from an intermediary who THEN
           | negotiates a flat rate or gambles on beating the sold
           | contracts on spot.
        
         | outside1234 wrote:
         | In addition to what others have said -- renewable does not mean
         | necessarily cheap.
        
       | kelnos wrote:
       | The grid operator cited is the California Independent System
       | Operator. How much of CA's electricity consumption is fed by that
       | operator?
       | 
       | In the article they mention 23GW from wind and solar. A quick
       | search says in 2018 CA's electrical generation capacity was 80GW
       | (which I assume has only gone up). So this 97% is a bit
       | misleading, no? It doesn't represent 97% of total CA electricity
       | usage... it's less than 30%?
        
         | mschaef wrote:
         | > A quick search says in 2018 CA's electrical generation
         | capacity was 80GW (which I assume has only gone up). So this
         | 97% is a bit misleading, no? It doesn't represent 97% of total
         | CA electricity usage... it's less than 30%?
         | 
         | Their full installed generation capacity is 80GW, but there's
         | huge variability in actual load. As I write this, current load
         | is around 21GW, on a range of between 18.7GW and 27GW over the
         | day. It gets into the 40's in the summer.
         | 
         | https://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/default.aspx
         | 
         | There's a significant need for reserve capacity to deal with
         | this load variability, as well as plant failures, etc.
        
         | tppiotrowski wrote:
         | From the article:
         | 
         | > Rooftop solar advocacy group Save California Solar said
         | although this milestone should be celebrated, California's
         | renewable energy progress is better measured by conditions on a
         | hot August summer day than a cool April spring day. Renewable
         | peaks typically occur in the spring, due to mild temperatures
         | and the sun angle allowing for an extended window of strong
         | solar production.
        
         | jweir wrote:
         | Capacity is the ability to produce energy and with renewables
         | that number is very different than with fossil fuels or nukes.
         | 
         | Renewables never reach capacity, well your solar might for a
         | peak moment, but then it will drop as the sun drops.
         | 
         | For example - you have a 200 MW wind farm, you might only be
         | able to produce 10MW at that moment. The capacity is 200MW, the
         | generation is 10.
         | 
         | Also the 3rd was a Sunday in spring - no office workers, less
         | demand, not a heating or cooling day in a lot of California, ie
         | a lower energy day than say a week day in summer where the temp
         | is 105 in the Central Valley.
        
         | ajsnigrutin wrote:
         | April 3rd was a sunday, and probably a very sunny one, with
         | temperatures in ranges where a lot of people don't really need
         | AC nor electrical heating.
         | 
         | What do you do when it's not sunny, very cold/hot, no wind, and
         | businesses and factories are open?
         | 
         | Somehow we talk a lot about solar, and not enough about
         | nuclear.
        
           | labster wrote:
           | We talk about nuclear more than we talk about solar on HN.
           | Probably because it's controversial we get more atomic
           | writes, while solar is presumed to exist.
        
           | cinntaile wrote:
           | It's the title of the article after all. We could talk about
           | Intel as well, but it's not relevant.
        
           | strainer wrote:
           | You need forms of storage for that. The conundrum can be
           | turned on its head - "What do you do when you have nuclear
           | and the businesses and factories are closed ?" You either
           | simply waste nuclear capacity that you've paid and waited
           | years for to be built - or you need forms of storage to make
           | use of it. Both Nuclear and Renewables really want storage,
           | they will compete for it. If you can only make use of 60% of
           | a nuclear plants capacity, you're price per unit is 100/60
           | more than the 'base-load' ideal that it was sold for. And
           | another thing future nuclear plants will have to run
           | alongside - is more and more renewable supply since
           | renewables are cheaper and faster to build. We will have a
           | situation where almost all demand is met by renewable supply
           | eventually, and before that situation the demand left nuclear
           | will decrease from 70,60,50,40,30...% - that's even without
           | storage. How many decades do you expect it will take before
           | those plants built with contracts to run for half a century
           | or more, become pointlessly uneconomic ?
        
             | ajsnigrutin wrote:
             | If there's too much power, it will be dirt cheap, and
             | you'll charge your electric car then, which will maybe
             | become affordable by then. Also with smart grid you'll
             | regulate water heaters, ACs etc.
             | 
             | Still better to have too much power than not enough...
             | Especially if eg. Russia decides to close the gas pipe, or
             | if americans decide to "bring democracy" to another middle
             | eastern state and that disrupta oil delivery.
             | 
             | We've sidetracked nuclear for decades now... The best time
             | was decades ago, and the second vest time to build some new
             | ones is now.
        
           | gameswithgo wrote:
        
         | Mvandenbergh wrote:
         | That is all the capacity added together before de-rating.
         | Capacity is de-rated based on how likely it is to produce
         | during a system load peak. So a nuclear plant might be counted
         | as 75% of nameplate to account for outage risk. Renewables are
         | de-rated a lot and by how much changes over time as they make
         | up a larger share of the connected capacity.
         | 
         | California de-rates solar by less than, say, the UK since Cali
         | has a lot of air conditioning load which is coincident with
         | insolation whereas summer days are the low-load periods in the
         | UK.
         | 
         | The capacity before de-rating > capacity after de-rating >
         | highest anticipated load > actual load on a normal day.
        
         | IvyMike wrote:
         | "The CAISO is one of the largest ISOs in the world, delivering
         | 300 million megawatt-hours of electricity each year and
         | managing about 80% of California's electric flow."
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Independent_System_...
         | 
         | Right now, 3PM in California, the CAISO demand shows around
         | 21GW of demand.
         | http://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/index.html
         | 
         | Note that CAISO's peak, ever, was 50GW. (PDF)
         | http://www.caiso.com/Documents/CaliforniaISOPeakLoadHistory....
         | 
         | The "installed capacity" of 80GW I believe is the number if you
         | add the theoretical max of all hydro, solar, wind, gas peaker
         | plants, etc. But each source will never simultaneously be at
         | max, so we never get close to this 80GW number.
         | https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-reports/energy-
         | almanac/califo....
        
         | kmonsen wrote:
         | That's assuming everything else is 0.
        
         | vmception wrote:
         | > "If California is to have any hope of getting to 100%
         | renewable energy on an August day in the future ... it will
         | take 100 GW more energy produced by solar. Halting the progress
         | of rooftop solar makes that goal impossible"
         | 
         | I'm also confused by the scales here. How are they praising the
         | use of 15,000 MW (15GW) and 8,000 MW (8 GW) in one sentence, in
         | an article about 97% of California's energy being used, and
         | saying they need 100 GW in the next sentence and being sad they
         | can't put it on rooftops. In an article showing a photo of a
         | solar cell field in a vast, desolate, arid region of central
         | valley.
        
           | imachine1980_ wrote:
           | not all california energy is produce in california california
           | fo example pays to nevada if don't remember wrong to, shut
           | down their panels to make their output higher than it is for
           | example, or like this articule say pay other state to buy
           | their electric excess output meaning the technically could be
           | true
           | 
           | article: California invested heavily in solar power. Now
           | there's so much that other states are sometimes paid to take
           | it https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-electricity-solar/
        
           | Retric wrote:
           | In California August requires a lot more electricity due to
           | AC than April. Seasonal demand differences can be huge, and
           | why a lot of maintenance for nuclear reactors etc take place
           | in the spring and fall.
        
             | vmception wrote:
             | I'm catching on. Is there not enough space in central
             | valley for this? is there too much loss transporting that
             | electricity to population centers?
        
               | Retric wrote:
               | In theory moving electricity 1,000 miles can have minimal
               | transmission losses. Unfortunately California's grid
               | lacks the infrastructure to support significant long
               | distance transmission.
        
               | incomethax wrote:
               | Sort-of. Transmission for HTHV lines (745kV single
               | circuit cost $2.5-4M/mile with ~1% line loss; 345kV
               | single circuit will cost ~$1.5-2M/mile with 5% line
               | loss). For 1MW solar capacity you typically need about 4
               | acres. 100GW of solar would require 400k acres of land -
               | and come at a cost of about $3 billion for the panels,
               | not to mention the price of land or entitlements. Add in
               | cost of substations and transmission you're realistically
               | looking at a $10+ Billion project. Which while doable
               | would not profitability compete with other grid
               | solutions. If panels drop by another 30% and power
               | densities improve the grid will naturally tend towards
               | that direction.
        
         | danans wrote:
         | > How much of CA's electricity consumption is fed by that
         | operator?
         | 
         | 80% of California and part of Nevada also. Don't confuse the
         | grid operator with the utility. Those are separate entities.
         | 
         | The ISO is the market maker for electricity - ultimately
         | responsible for keeping supply and demand on the grid in
         | balance. They contract with numerous entities to achieve that.
         | 
         | The utility is responsible for some combination of generation,
         | transmission, distribution, and billing, depending on where you
         | are located.
         | 
         | There are many other players in the markets, including spinning
         | reserves, independent generators, demand aggregators,
         | community-choice-aggregators, and some that play multiple
         | roles.
        
         | selectodude wrote:
         | CAISO doesn't cover the city of Los Angeles, but that's about
         | it.
        
           | jjtheblunt wrote:
           | > but that's about it
           | 
           | isn't that the major consumer?
        
             | selectodude wrote:
             | Covers the Bay Area and the entirety of Southern California
             | except for the city limits of Los Angeles. So all but about
             | 4 million people.
        
         | joebob42 wrote:
         | My interpretation is that this was a low demand moment where
         | that 27gw was more or less equal to the demand (e.g. a demand
         | trough not a renewable output spike).
        
           | onlyrealcuzzo wrote:
           | So the title should be - CA generated 97% of electricity from
           | renewable energy for a brief moment on April 3?
        
             | CrimsonCape wrote:
             | No, because joebob's interpretation is wrong.
        
             | simpsond wrote:
             | Yes, the article says that in the first paragraph.
             | 
             | Also, solar generation is highest during march/April.
             | Cooler temps and good angles. Demand is lower too, as temps
             | are good for people.
        
       | tomohawk wrote:
       | What a meaningless stat. What is the minimum capacity that
       | renewables are guaranteed to provide? That's the number that
       | matters.
        
         | mschaef wrote:
         | > What is the minimum capacity that renewables are guaranteed
         | to provide?
         | 
         | Zero... same as any other technology. ie: Texas lost around
         | 25GW of needed NatGas capacity in Feb 2021, not to mention the
         | failed coal, wind, and nuclear that also occurred during that
         | event. (Texas had similar shortages in 2011 and 1989.)
         | 
         | > That's the number that matters.
         | 
         | You need to take a portfolio view when thinking about energy
         | supply issues... reality is both your number and their number
         | matter.
         | 
         | What 97% does mean, is less consumption of two finite
         | resources, namely the ability of the atmosphere to absorb
         | carbon and the amount of carbon we have available to us to
         | burn.
         | 
         | Of course, it also means there's a need to either scale the
         | rest of the generation in the ISO down to 3% or export the
         | excess to a neighboring market. Larger base load plants,
         | particularly nuclear, are very bad at lowering their output
         | (Which is why sometimes wholesale electricity prices are
         | negative. These are generators willing to pay people to take
         | their power so they don't have to shut down or otherwise reduce
         | output.)
        
       | outside1234 wrote:
       | And this doesn't measure the 100% renewable power being consumed
       | when the house is being powered by a solar panel...
       | 
       | ... in any case, great progress, let's get to 100% California!
        
         | Aachen wrote:
         | What percentage of industries and cars are electric currently?
         | Is 100% also continuous during winter? There's a long way to go
         | after "100%" unfortunately :/
        
       | Arubis wrote:
       | Article doesn't get into this level of detail, but I'd be
       | interested in how they define "renewable". Does it include
       | hydropower, which is renewable but has strong non-carbon-related
       | undesirable environmental consequences? Is burned trash
       | "renewable"?
        
         | CaliforniaKarl wrote:
         | Cal ISO's web site is at
         | https://www.caiso.com/Pages/default.aspx
         | 
         | On there you can dig in and find what sources are counted as
         | renewable.
        
           | Arubis wrote:
           | That's clarifying; thanks!
        
         | jhgb wrote:
         | Hydropower actually has strong carbon-related undesirable
         | environmental consequences, but probably not to such an extent
         | in California as it does in Africa and South America. You'd
         | have to find dam-specific data to verify that for Californian
         | dams, though. It's not like with coal where burning 1 kg
         | releases 3.6 kg of CO2 no matter where you burn it. Emissions
         | of a dam depend at the very least on its surface area, depth,
         | water temperature, biomass inflow etc., all of which are dam-
         | specific.
        
         | onlyrealcuzzo wrote:
         | > Does it include hydropower, which is renewable but has strong
         | non-carbon-related undesirable environmental consequences?
         | 
         | IIUC, the vast majority of ecological impact caused by hydro is
         | already done. It is not making things exponentially worse.
         | 
         | Am I missing something?
        
           | emteycz wrote:
           | No hydro - no obstacle in the waterway, migration paths are
           | affected but still functional. Hydro - it's a meatgrinder.
        
           | jhgb wrote:
           | Depending on location, hydroelectric power can have (mostly
           | because of decomposing vegetation) carbon-equivalent
           | emissions ranging from several grams of CO2 per kWh, all the
           | way up to around two thousand grams (!) per kWh. This greatly
           | depends on location, with shallow, large-area tropical dams
           | being the worst offenders, and cold, high altitude Nordic
           | dams being the most environmentally friendly.
        
       | tomas789 wrote:
       | CAISO Materials on the event
       | http://www.caiso.com/Documents/California-ISO-Hits-All-Time-...
        
       | pydry wrote:
       | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fengning_Pumped_Storage_Powe...
       | 
       | Looks like California should start building one of these 3.6GW
       | 40GWh batteries since at this rate routine 120-150% renewable
       | power days dont look so far off and it'll take about 6 years to
       | build.
        
         | CaliforniaKarl wrote:
         | Here's a start: https://www.sdcwa.org/projects/san-vicente-
         | pumping-facilitie...
        
         | jeffbee wrote:
         | Sounds big but California built over 2GW/8GW-h of battery
         | capacity last year, so I think we're on pace. Nothing fancy,
         | just a lot of batteries in cabinets.
        
         | toomuchtodo wrote:
         | Tesla at Moss Landing went live 2 days ago. 256 Megapacks,
         | 182.5 MW / 730 MWh. The facility will eventually host
         | 1,500MW/6,000MWh of battery storage.
         | 
         | Tesla has also broken ground on a Megapack manufacturing
         | facility (Lathrop, CA) employing 1000 people to build roughly
         | 50GWh of storage per year.
         | 
         | https://www.montereycountyweekly.com/blogs/news_blog/pg-es-n...
        
       | rubyist5eva wrote:
       | Is this why Calfornia energy is so expensive and constantly
       | having blackouts?
        
         | jeffbee wrote:
         | No, because California isn't constantly having blackouts. There
         | was one really infamous (among habitual Fox News viewers)
         | capacity-related blackout in late 2020, in which fewer than 1%
         | of customers were disconnected for less than 1 hour. That was
         | precipitated by the sudden shutdown of Diablo Canyon, a nuclear
         | power station. California hasn't had a capacity-related
         | intentional disconnect since then.
        
           | cge wrote:
           | There have also been the _intentional_ blackouts of a sort,
           | if I recall correctly, but those were to mitigate fire risk,
           | not because of capacity, and aren 't particularly related to
           | electricity _generation_.
        
             | svachalek wrote:
             | Yup, thanks to poor power line maintenance burning down big
             | swathes of the state, we established the totally modern,
             | first world solution of shutting off the power when it's
             | hot and windy.
             | 
             | But massive unintentional blackouts like say, Texas, nope
             | not here.
        
             | rubyist5eva wrote:
             | Thanks for the extra context - went back and refreshed my
             | memory and you are both correct. These are the articles I
             | remember reading about CA blackouts from:
             | 
             | https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/california-wildfires-power-
             | out...
             | 
             | https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/california-heat-
             | wave-1.5687895
        
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