[HN Gopher] Ask HN: Are there any rural tech communities?
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       Ask HN: Are there any rural tech communities?
        
       With increasing remote work, are there rural communities where many
       people are tech workers?  Curious globally, but mostly interested
       in USA/UK.  I would like to live a more pastoral life, but
       anecdotally I've heard that people tend to be very different to
       those you find in a city.
        
       Author : dkarp
       Score  : 70 points
       Date   : 2022-04-22 19:18 UTC (3 hours ago)
        
       | mattlondon wrote:
       | Silicon Fen in UK? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Fen
        
       | bombcar wrote:
       | Snide answer - look at voting records from the places you are
       | interested in, and find those that match you as closely as
       | possible so you don't have to be confronted by anyone different
       | from you.
        
       | kylehotchkiss wrote:
       | I lived in a Southwest Virginia college town for a few years
       | after college.
       | 
       | * Fast and cheap fiber internet. Reasonably priced utilities.
       | 
       | * A reasonably sized and maintained home with a yard goes for
       | under $200,000.
       | 
       | * Small airport with a connection to Charlotte on AA that I
       | believe had federally subsidized aviation access.
       | 
       | * Small risk of natural disasters.
       | 
       | * I did a photography gallery and the mayor of that town stopped
       | by to see it.
       | 
       | I enjoyed my time there but after friends slowly moved to bigger
       | cities, I did too. I can't see myself happy there anymore. I
       | probably wouldn't be married now and probably would have had a
       | harder time forward in my career. Even if there was a tech scene
       | there, it wouldn't be larger than 10 or so people, and the local
       | tech companies were far less advanced.
       | 
       | But if I had a choice as a kid where would be more fun to grow
       | up, I'd say back in Virginia. More room to roam, outdoor
       | activities nearby without parking issues, yard for hosting get-
       | togethers, and far less pressure in school/extra-circulars.
       | 
       | Hope this helps a little :)
        
       | CalRobert wrote:
       | Well, I moved to a village of about 250 people in rural Ireland,
       | and I've met some other rural Irish tech workers online, but
       | don't know of any concentrations of tech workers, we're all far
       | apart. I do wonder if this will change over time as housing in
       | cities gets less and less affordable.
       | 
       | It's.... Fine. The locals are mostly bemused. I'd struggle to do
       | it in rural US where the political divide is much wider. I'm only
       | here because it's cheap though.
        
         | scandox wrote:
         | How is the broadband? I'm in Dublin and often contemplate
         | moving out but I run into connectivity issues in many of my
         | favoured locations.
        
           | CalRobert wrote:
           | Fastest I've ever had, gigabit fibre.
           | 
           | Not to plug but I built www.gaffologist.com to find my house.
           | You can choose rural fibre routes as an overlay
        
             | scandox wrote:
             | That's worth plugging. Thanks.
        
       | betwixthewires wrote:
       | Yes, they do tend to be very different, because their needs and
       | lifestyles are different. If that's a problem, perhaps that's not
       | a good environment for you. You're not going to find a rural,
       | small community where nobody is a farmer, these communities exist
       | on interpersonal, familial relationships with one another.
        
       | cdkmoose wrote:
       | A possible target would be paper mill towns or similar. They tend
       | to be rural to be close to the wood supply, but having a staff of
       | engineers means there is a chance for a tech component to the
       | population. I grow up in a small town in Maine, 1500 people in 45
       | square miles. The next town over from the mill town. Our regional
       | HS had a strong science/math component again connected to the
       | engineering population I think. Interestingly, cable was so late
       | in getting to my town that when it arrived it was cheaper to run
       | fiber than copper, so my parent's have fiber to the house,
       | excellent internet speeds. I have been able to work very
       | functionally in my software engineering job from there.
        
       | Joey21 wrote:
       | Why not look to small towns around state universities? Also, in
       | the USA, look for micropolitan towns. Places that aren't tiny,
       | but aren't major metro areas along with those kinds of
       | challenges. Smaller towns can be easier places to afford homes,
       | shorter distances to truly rural places. The people can be - not
       | always though - challenging. May be more conservative politically
       | and culturally. May be resistant to progressive ideas and
       | efforts. Wife and I live in a smaller university town and love it
       | here. It is a small community of similarly minded people who like
       | the town and like technology and/or share similar progressive
       | ideas. Fortunately we can hop in a car and be in a big city in an
       | hour or so and enjoy big city entertainment and shopping. That
       | said, our town punches well above its weight with plenty of
       | shopping and entertainment opportunities.
        
         | sophacles wrote:
         | Seconded - I live in a university town in the Midwest (usa).
         | Several big tech companies have offices in town. The university
         | itself employs a lot of tech folks, and spawns startups. There
         | are also a few smaller/medium tech firms that are local. On a
         | normal day, you're never more than 15 minutes drive from farm
         | fields, and quite a few tech workers live out in the country
         | and drive into town occasionally or daily for work.
         | 
         | It's nice, there's enough tech folks to maintain several maker
         | spaces and co-working spots, and the students are a steady
         | stream of enthusiastic youngsters to keep things feeling fresh.
         | Added benefit that I've discovered talking to people in bigger
         | cities: there's enough going on here that I often want to do
         | several things in a day, and since much of it happens in the
         | same 2 mile radius, you don't have to factor travel time into
         | planning. (For example, I can go to a python meetup that ends
         | at 7 and get to the theatre to see a 715 show with friends on
         | the other side of town - a lot of places make that into an
         | either-or proposition).
        
         | tclancy wrote:
         | Yeah, here in Southern NH near Portsmouth/ UNH there's a strong
         | tech scene but you're also close to fairly rural areas.
        
         | njoubert wrote:
         | I grew up in an area like this and it was pretty great!
        
         | nextos wrote:
         | Any examples of micropolitan towns?
        
           | glial wrote:
           | Decorah or Grinnell Iowa, or Northfield Minnesota.
        
       | linusgetonskype wrote:
       | +1 for Chattanooga, TN. Municipal fiber, white water rafting,
       | Rock City; what more could you want?
        
       | bitxbitxbitcoin wrote:
       | I don't know any off the top of my head but I am also very
       | interested if there are any existing hubs. I assume it would be
       | somewhere with good internet.
        
         | braingenious wrote:
         | I don't know of any for sure either, but I'd look around in the
         | area around Chattanooga, Tennessee and similar places with
         | affordable fiber.
        
           | beauzero wrote:
           | Agreed. Sylacauga, AL has metro fiber/provided by electrical
           | company. The three counties around Carrollton, GA (Haralson,
           | Carroll, and Heard) are getting it from now through the next
           | 6 years from Carroll EMC. Phase 1 has started and is focused
           | on Haralson and Heard counties first. With a few in more
           | rural areas of Carroll. Start here
           | https://carrollemc.com/broadband Carrollton, GA also has
           | UWG...the cheapest "state" school for tuition in Georgia.
        
       | toast0 wrote:
       | Some of the Seattle 'suburbs' get fairly rural, lots of trees, at
       | least some lots are a couple acres, a few working farms, lots of
       | hobby farms, but still have a lot of tech workers.
       | 
       | If remote work is important to you, check out internet options.
       | There's a chance of Comcast and CenturyLink, but both get shifty
       | about actually servicing homes in places (Comcast won't run a
       | drop to my house even though their cable is on the pole at the
       | corner of the lot; CenturyLink has run out of DSLAM ports in some
       | neighborhoods, and some homes are too far from the DSLAM to get
       | usable speeds); some public utility districts do fiber, but if
       | your prospective house isn't already passed by their fiber, you
       | would need to pay actual costs to extend the network plus actual
       | costs to run a drop to your DMARC (which gets spendy if you've
       | got underground wiring and a long driveway; I've got a $50k
       | installation quote which 40% is undergrounding along my driveway
       | and 60% is stringing the fiber on poles for 2ish miles); but some
       | counties don't do that. I've seen relatively good reports for
       | Starlink, but waiting time is unknowable and bandwidth and
       | latency fluctuate during the day.
        
         | CalRobert wrote:
         | I'm on a train and just went through some charming town south
         | of Centralia. Wonder if it would appeal to remote tech workers.
        
           | countvonbalzac wrote:
           | Is there bad air quality there from the coal fire?
        
             | CalRobert wrote:
             | Fair, out of context it's unclear. I'm in Washington state.
        
             | wollsmoth wrote:
             | I think you're thinking of Centralia PA?
        
         | manacit wrote:
         | Very much agree with this, I know a number of people that
         | commuted (pre-pandemic) to the East Side (Redmond/Bellevue)
         | that live in North Bend, Monroe, Sultan, etc. These are all
         | cities that are very much part of the 'Seattle area' and are
         | not really considered rural, but would tick many of the boxes.
         | 
         | If you want to go farther out, there are plenty of parts of WA
         | that are really rural - but you might not find things like high
         | speed internet are very accessible.
         | 
         | The one thing you won't get moving into any of those places is
         | lower housing costs, however. These are all priced with the
         | fact that high-earners are living in these cities and commuting
         | into Seattle/Bellevue/Redmond and getting paid those salaries.
        
         | dogman144 wrote:
         | Starlink is pretty capable, been running it side-by-side in
         | that sort of area vs. the local and only big name ISP. For a
         | month+ of two remote tech workers doing video calls, hasn't
         | been an issue.
        
       | niblettc wrote:
       | Huntsville, AL, & Chattanooga, TN both have tech communities.
       | Huntsville has NASA's MSFC and Redstone arsenal, so there's a ton
       | of tech talent from all over the country there. Companies like
       | Boeing, Blue Origin, Lockheed all have a presence. They're now
       | starting to see non government / defense tech companies spring
       | up, Like CommentSold. Gener8tor is launching a new accelerator
       | program there.
        
       | duxup wrote:
       | I feel like by the time you have a community that is worth noting
       | that they're not very "rural" anymore. At the very least it is
       | then suburban.
       | 
       | Number of tech worker's that's hard to know.
        
         | bombcar wrote:
         | People's definition of "rural" varies widely.
         | 
         | Many "rural" people live in small towns/cities where their
         | nearest neighbor is mere yards away, others would only consider
         | "rural" to be where the nearest neighbor couldn't be hit with a
         | high-powered rifle.
        
           | duxup wrote:
           | Yeah that's a challenge. Last article I read about people
           | "fleeing" San Fransisco was very vague until they mentioned a
           | family who moved to a "rural community".
           | 
           | Later they mentioned where they moved it was ... it was the
           | suburbs. Very much not rural.
           | 
           | Where I live there's a farm down the road, that doesn't make
           | it rural either.
        
       | shasts wrote:
       | Would there be a backlash from the local community? I think
       | unless the said tech community makes a positive impact to the
       | native society live there, the reception is not going to be
       | welcoming, I think.
       | 
       | Majority of the places I have seen tech people move to, the first
       | thing to happen is increase in prices, be it housing or services.
        
         | dkarp wrote:
         | I do worry about this. It feel like I often hear complaints of
         | an influx of tech workers leading to higher prices for locals,
         | especially real estate. I have friends in Denver, CO and Bend,
         | OR specifically who have made that complaint over the last
         | couple years
        
       | paulorlando wrote:
       | Thanks for posting this. I grew up in a rural area / small town.
       | I've been trying to get back to that life (main drivers: I have
       | young kids and like the outdoors more than office buildings).
       | Happy to discuss this concept or try to help anyone interested.
       | I've been discussing with a couple groups but they are in EU.
       | Building this in the US would be a lot more straightforward.
        
       | EntropyIsAHoax wrote:
       | You might be interested in Thief River Falls, Minnesota. Digikey
       | is based there and one of the largest electronic retailers in the
       | world, but the town itself is relatively small (few thousand
       | people)
       | 
       | Afaik they're the only company to work for so it's a bit limited.
       | But I have a friend who lives there and is one of their many
       | developers and she loves it. I understood from her that they're
       | staying permanently remote even after the pandemic, but they
       | might give you preferential treatment if you're willing to move
       | anyways. And I know she still has the possibility of going into
       | the office whenever she wants and has great relationships with
       | her coworkers.
       | 
       | Some of their problems are very interesting too, as much of the
       | software is to run their highly optimized warehouse. Their whole
       | schtick is that they can get your product out of the warehouse in
       | just an hour or two, so if you can pay for fast shipping it will
       | get to you however fast you want. And this ends up being a very
       | interesting optimization problem with human and machine
       | components as well.
        
         | oblio wrote:
         | Company towns should probably not count.
        
       | sereja wrote:
       | There is "Programmers village" ("Poselok programmistov") in Kirov
       | Oblast in deep Russia.
       | 
       | It is not exactly a rural community: it's just 20 or so families
       | of remote tech workers (mostly freelancers) living a few
       | kilometers from a small old town with dirt cheap land and local
       | labor (like "buy a two-story house with one month's SF salary"
       | kind of cheap). It was founded before the pandemic by a guy who
       | used to work as an SWE at Yandex and grew tired of living in
       | Moscow.
       | 
       | I wonder if something like this exists elsewhere.
        
       | m82labs wrote:
       | The Raleigh NC area has quite a bit of tech, and if you stay
       | about 20-25 minutes outside of downtown you can get that rural
       | lifestyle while still being close to the city and tech companies.
       | Specifically if you stay south of the city. I have 2 acres and
       | regularly see cows across the field in my backyard but I also
       | have a good selection of local tech conferences and reliable
       | fiber internet.
        
         | tcoppi wrote:
         | Agree Raleigh and the general Triangle area is a good one.
         | Maybe surprising for most here but Maryland and Virginia is
         | like this as well. We're more expensive but you can get 1-3
         | acres within an hour commute of DC and/or Baltimore with a
         | relatively robust tech scene, especially if you're willing to
         | work for the government. Areas like Frederick, MD even have
         | reasonable rail commutes into DC!
        
       | chaostheory wrote:
       | Isn't this an oxymoron? i.e. the second enough techies converge
       | in the same location is the same second it transforms from a
       | rural community into a suburb
        
         | Kerrick wrote:
         | Absolutely not. You'll find plenty of communities in rural
         | areas: churches, American Legion, quilting groups, hunting
         | buddies, continuing education classes at the county extension,
         | etc.
        
       | s3233323 wrote:
        
       | codingdave wrote:
       | I live in a rural community. It is a mile to my nearest neighbor.
       | Many farmers live here, but also many people who just have long
       | commutes to a town/city. I would not say that they are very
       | different people - we all have more in common than we are
       | different. But they do have different backgrounds and skills.
       | Most of them are pretty sharp and are interested in technology,
       | but they just don't know much about it. Some of them have tried
       | to learn some basic coding. Many of them are intrigued by what
       | tech can bring to agriculture. I think that if you wanted to take
       | the lead and build a tech community locally, focused on helping
       | people come up to speed and figuring how it would have direct
       | benefit to the local community, most areas would be receptive to
       | such a thing.
        
       | greenie_beans wrote:
       | They're trying to build one in Water Valley, Mississippi:
       | https://everesthub.org/. No publicly available fiber internet
       | yet.
       | 
       | Water Valley (population ~4k) is often described as an artists
       | community. It's near Oxford, MS, which is also known for its
       | literature and art.
        
       | eatonphil wrote:
       | There are a lot of tech folks in western Mass and western
       | Connecticut, both very rural. I've met a few. Grey beards working
       | remotely for a decade or two. And I've even met a few young
       | people with kids who work remotely for NYC companies out of rural
       | NJ.
       | 
       | Lancaster PA has or had a few tech companies.
       | 
       | So I'd say probably yes. Pick a county of 500 thousand people or
       | so and start looking through their Craigslist for job postings.
       | You'll find them eventually.
        
       | ben_w wrote:
       | Depends what you mean by rural. If you literally want to walk to
       | the local horse riding club from your front door, my old town was
       | Cottenham UK, a 20 minute commute from Cambridge science park:
       | https://goo.gl/maps/yeRNL3Dayu5eXYkx6
       | 
       | Also I grew up in Havant, and basically all of the A27 is a thin
       | strip of urban surrounded by fields -- my childhood home was
       | almost equidistant between Lockheed Martin and a horse
       | farm/castle.
       | 
       | Outside of the U.K., a friend lives on the edge of Zurich[0], has
       | fields with grazing sheep an arrow's flight[1] from their flat.
       | 
       | [0] technically not in the city itself, but in a conurbation and
       | you wouldn't notice the boundary by looking at an aerial photo.
       | 
       | [1] a bit longer than a stone's throw; specifically 100 meters.
        
       | ixfo wrote:
       | UK? Pick any county within an hour or so of London. Oxfordshire
       | and Berkshire is full of systems/tech people.
        
       | mdasen wrote:
       | > I've heard that people tend to be very different to those you
       | find in a city
       | 
       | In a lot of cases this is true - and it's not just about tech.
       | Rural communities are often more religious, more conservative,
       | lower income, lower educated, and have a lot less access to
       | opportunity. Cities also mean that there's often a critical mass
       | for many interests and minority groups. Are you LGBT? Are you a
       | religious or racial minority? Do you have hobbies that might be
       | more unique? Cities have the critical mass for so many groups of
       | people.
       | 
       | Before I go further, I want to take a moment to talk about three
       | things: income, education, and opportunity. Someone lacking any
       | or all of those doesn't make them a bad person. However, moving
       | to an area without those things can have an impact on you. In the
       | US, a lot of services are paid for by property taxes collected by
       | the municipality and county. If you move to an area where people
       | are struggling, there isn't the same kind of money for services -
       | and even if your housing is cheaper, you'll be paying a lot more
       | in taxes since you might be going from "above average" to "really
       | rich". Education and opportunity can also be a problem. Do you
       | end up in an area where many have resorted to meth or opioids? Do
       | you end up in an area where chronic unemployment is an issue?
       | Again, this isn't people being bad or anything like that, but it
       | can cause fear and resentment.
       | 
       | There was an article (which I can't find right now) about the
       | unionization drive at an Alabama Amazon fulfillment center.
       | Amazon came into a town that basically hadn't had jobs and
       | everyone was living pretty poorly. The article interviewed some
       | people and the sentiment came across as people thinking that the
       | place was dying and even if they wanted a union, they didn't want
       | to risk going back to a place that was a disaster.
       | 
       | In rural communities with flood risks, FEMA has bought and
       | demolished properties rather than pay to rebuild them. This ends
       | up gutting the tax base and leaves the community as a shell of
       | itself. If the main store in your town and 5-10% of the houses
       | get bought and demolished, you still have the roads, police, etc.
       | to pay for with a dwindling tax base - and less reason for you to
       | be there.
       | 
       | https://mtgis-portal.geo.census.gov/arcgis/apps/MapSeries/in...
       | 
       | Check out the census map and select "Population Change" and then
       | zoom in one level so it shows counties. Many rural areas have
       | lost 10-30% of their population over a decade. It isn't fun to be
       | a part of a dwindling tax base. A lot of expenses don't go down
       | as that tax base goes down.
       | 
       | Along with this, I'd argue that there's a
       | brain/income/opportunity-drain in a lot of rural communities.
       | People who are richer, have more education, and more access to
       | opportunity are more likely to leave. Are you buying into a
       | location where the future isn't on your side?
       | 
       | If you're thinking about the next 20-40 years of your life, I'd
       | argue you need to think about climate change and whether the US
       | will continue to subsidize rural life. If we're going to get
       | serious about climate change, will that mean $10 gas? Even with
       | electric cars, the cost will increase. Will we continue to spend
       | a fortune on roads and other accommodations for rural life? The
       | US spends a huge amount of money on rural telecom infrastructure
       | our of taxes on urban areas. Will places like Amazon start
       | differentiating shipping pricing? It's a lot cheaper for them to
       | deliver in cities where the distance between stops is small. I
       | don't expect anything extreme, but if things are getting 1% worse
       | every year, that starts to add up.
       | 
       | All that said, I do think that there are some good rural
       | communities in New England - Central/Western Massachusetts and
       | Vermont especially. You'll find high educational attainment, a
       | population that is relatively stable, access to decent towns and
       | cities, and a liberal enough attitude that won't expect you to
       | conform to the hegemony as much as many rural places. Many of the
       | Western Mass towns even have municipal fiber. I think you'd find
       | enough tech workers around.
       | 
       | Honestly, it's hard to say whether a place would be a good fit
       | for you since I know almost nothing about you. Are you white,
       | male, straight, Christian, etc.? A lot of rural places can become
       | easier if you tick those boxes. If you don't tick those boxes,
       | then you might start wondering how you might be treated
       | differently from living in the city.
       | 
       | It's also hard to know what you mean by "rural" since the
       | distinction between suburban and rural is hard in the US. In
       | Europe, things drop off to farmland very quickly. In the US,
       | things just sprawl with no clear distinction. Is Saratoga
       | Springs, NY rural? It's certainly a bit far from things and might
       | be the "pastoral" feeling you're looking for, but it still has
       | stuff around. Likewise, there are plenty of locations with very
       | few people that might be an hour from a city like Boston.
       | Boxborough, MA is an hour from Boston while covered in forest.
       | I'd think of it as "suburban", but it might the rural/pastoral
       | feel you're looking for while still being within commutable
       | distance to everything.
       | 
       | Maybe you're looking for a place like Saratoga Springs or
       | Ashville, NC or Burlington, VT or Charlottesville, VA. I think
       | those places could be really nice. I would caution about moving
       | to an area that is seeing a lot of population decline that has a
       | big lack of opportunity.
        
         | dkarp wrote:
         | I appreciate your point about population decline as that isn't
         | something I had considered at all.
         | 
         | Maybe rural doesn't capture what I'm looking for, but I'm not
         | sure of a better word and it does capture the feeling. I would
         | like at least 4 acres and some privacy at the very least. Then
         | the question becomes what I'd have to give up to get that. It
         | definitely means giving up living in a big city, but maybe it
         | doesn't mean giving up a small city/town.
        
         | countvonbalzac wrote:
         | +1 suburban / rural areas are heavily subsidized by the federal
         | + state governments. It isn't cheap to maintain that amount of
         | roads / utilities and I could certainly foresee a future in
         | which it becomes much more expensive to leave so far apart.
        
         | julianlam wrote:
         | It seems peculiar to me that there is no standard process for
         | the winding down of city governance when population dwindles.
         | It's probably just the human element. I don't mean to be
         | promoting some sort of libertarian "self-governance is great!"
         | philosophy, just thinking out loud.
         | 
         | Imagine a city building game where city expenses increase with
         | each population milestone (due to new positions in local
         | government, new departments, etc.). One would naturally expect
         | that if the city population were to drop below a specific
         | threshold, the appropriate departments would be wound down to
         | curb expenditure. If there aren't enough people to economically
         | support a parks department, then (sadly) let the parks go wild.
         | 
         | Perhaps it's just hard to fire someone because an algorithm
         | told you to do so. Real life is messy, after all.
        
           | mdasen wrote:
           | You can wind down certain things, but at what point are you
           | winding down stuff that's more on the necessity side of
           | things? The US has a lot of crumbling infrastructure that
           | needs repair and replacement and I don't think people want to
           | be told "sorry, your house is only accessible by off-road
           | vehicle now." We're spending over $20B to increase rural
           | broadband because people in rural areas don't want to be told
           | "sorry, the population has dropped below a certain threshold
           | so we're winding down the internet in your area to curb
           | expenditure." (And before someone talks about Starlink,
           | SpaceX is looking to get a lot of that money).
           | 
           | I think it's also not just about the emotions of firing
           | someone. It's really hard to manage a downward trend - and
           | not from a touchy-feely standpoint. If you're an uncaring
           | machine and people leave, you fire a proportional number of
           | government employees. But that doesn't solve the situation.
           | Every business in the area now has fewer customers. At some
           | point, those businesses close reducing tax revenue further
           | and increasing unemployment more. It's not just the city that
           | feels the pinch of a dwindling tax base - that dwindling tax
           | base means there's also a dwindling consumer base.
           | 
           | An important thing to remember is that cities/towns/counties
           | often take out debt for spending that will pay off over time.
           | For example, you want to build a school so you borrow $X and
           | you'll pay it back over the next 30 years. You need to
           | rebuild some roads so you borrow and pay it back over the
           | next 30 years. However, if your population is dwindling, that
           | can leave the town holding debt it can't really pay anymore.
           | If you built a school for 1,000 students and then the
           | population dwindles by 30% over the next 20 years, you're
           | stuck paying for way more school than you need with fewer
           | people paying for it. Ok, layoff some teachers - but you have
           | to lay off more then 30% of the teachers because you're
           | paying for 100% of the school debt and maintenance costs. So
           | you fire 40-50% of the teachers, class sizes go up, the
           | people with the best options (the most educated with the best
           | job opportunities and most money) leave your town eroding the
           | richest part of your tax base and leaving lower income people
           | on the hook for that debt while they escape it...which causes
           | you to fire more teachers which causes more people to
           | leave...
           | 
           | I think it's not just that there's a messy human side to it,
           | but that it's hard to manage decline. Ok, you wind down a
           | department. What about the building? Maybe you can sell it,
           | but probably at a loss since you have a declining purchasing
           | base. As you wind down a parks department or library, the
           | richest people are likely to leave. Now your algorithm
           | requires more cuts.
           | 
           | And the sad state of it is that it's often not a parks
           | department. It can be things like roads or safe drinking
           | water.
           | 
           | There is also a messy human side of it as well, for sure, but
           | it's just hard to manage decline. I can totally see the game:
           | you cut the parks department and the rich people complain,
           | sell their house for 15% below previous market value and
           | leave, and your tax base dwindles more. You cut after-school
           | programs and more rich people complain about the town and
           | schools and leave - and your tax base dwindles more. You try
           | to attract new residents to YouVille and cartoon characters
           | say, "I want a town that invests in its schools," and
           | "everyone I know is talking about leaving YouVille."
        
       | cprayingmantis wrote:
       | Hey we should talk! The county I live in has pretty good fiber
       | with a population under 20k. I've been tossing around the idea of
       | creating a curated list of properties for sale here. There isn't
       | a tech community here yet but the property prices are cheap
       | ($325k for a house and 40 acres, also has city water).
       | 
       | What made you interested in rural communities? What would make
       | you likely to move to one? It's quite a different way of life out
       | here but I have no doubts that one could adjust.
        
       | Kerrick wrote:
       | I'm working on founding a nonprofit with the explicit aim being
       | to foster exactly that, with coworking spaces being the central
       | hub to collect and train techies (and other remote workers).
       | 
       | Here's an excerpt from a draft of our organizational plan:
       | 
       | > When Americans raised in a rural area want to enter knowledge
       | work or start a business, they're usually stuck with two options:
       | do something local, which caps their earning potential, or move
       | to an urban metropolitan area, which exacerbates the problem of
       | rural brain drain. [REDACTED] fosters and accelerates a recent
       | third option: work remotely or start an internet-based business,
       | opening up the earning potential formerly only available to those
       | who chose to move to the big city, while keeping the people
       | rooted in (and thus their earnings circulating through the
       | economies of) their rural home.
       | 
       | > While the first thought to unlock aforementioned internet-based
       | earning potential for rural Americans might be universal
       | broadband on the scale of the rural electrification of America in
       | the mid 1900s, there are two specific advantages that focusing on
       | coworking as a complimentary solution provides. First, coworking
       | spaces can be built as a centralized service for all citizens of
       | a county, like a university exchange or a courthouse, when
       | broadband internet service is available in part of a rural county
       | but not to most of the citizens at home. Second, coworking spaces
       | continue to provide value and foster economic potential even once
       | every rural home has broadband internet, as evidenced by their
       | success and popularity in cities across the world.
        
       | davidw wrote:
       | Pre-pandemic, Bend, Oregon where I live was already a hot spot
       | for remote work:
       | 
       | https://www.bendbulletin.com/business/bend-is-u-s-capital-of...
       | 
       | It's a city of 100K people though, so I don't think it's what I
       | would call 'rural' if you live in town.
        
       | maestroia wrote:
       | If you're into medtech or healthcare, Rochester, MN. Rochester
       | itself is around 80-100K, but in the middle of rural SE MN with
       | several smaller communities around it.
        
       | fasteddie31003 wrote:
       | I live in Breckenridge, CO. I'd love to make this more of a rural
       | tech community. The harsh winters here make for great skiing and
       | programming weather.
        
         | AnimalMuppet wrote:
         | I'd _love_ to live in Breckenridge. (One of my favorite things
         | is feeding the trout in the dredge pond.) But... there 's no
         | way I could afford to live there :-<
        
         | scarecrowbob wrote:
         | I'm in DGO. It's a great place to do all the outdoor play.
         | 
         | I like that there are better paying jobs able to be out here on
         | the edge of the desert, but it's really hard to live in places
         | where short-term rentals are combining with folks like me
         | moving into the community. I will never be able to afford a
         | place in town for sure.
        
       | techsolomon wrote:
       | Alaska Developers Alliance - https://www.akdevalliance.com/
        
       | AnimalMuppet wrote:
       | I'd like to know, too.
       | 
       | My guess: You need at least a town with a state college. (Do you
       | consider Fort Collins, Colorado to be "rural"? It's about 110,000
       | people. Decent tech scene there.)
        
         | mminer237 wrote:
         | This is basically Champaign-Urbana, Illinois too. You have the
         | university, Wolfram Research, Volition, tech startups, etc.
         | downtown. You drive two miles south and it's just corn galore.
        
       | brightball wrote:
       | I don't know if it qualifies for your standard but Greenville, SC
       | and its surrounding areas (Traveler's Rest, Simpsonville, Easley,
       | Greer) have a blossoming tech community over the last 10 years.
       | I'm one of the admins for our main tech Slack group and there's
       | about 1,400 of us in there at last count.
       | 
       | Beautiful downtown area around a waterfall, tons of biking, near
       | mountains and 3 lakes.
       | 
       | House prices are through the roof right now due to the influx of
       | people though. Stories of bidding wars that used to be unheard of
       | in this area.
       | 
       | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZA252lotHM
        
       | PaulDavisThe1st wrote:
       | There's a small village (250 people) in rural New Mexico that
       | until recently was home to both the 2nd programmer at Amazon and
       | the main inventor of the Kindle. That was close to 1% of
       | residents, but the kindle guy left :)
       | 
       | More seriously, I'd say that I love doing "tech work" out here.
       | Almost none of my neighbors know anything about what I do, and
       | most of them don't want to know. Suits me fine. I'd rather talk
       | about tech stuff online with people who know, and about
       | everything else with my neighbors.
       | 
       | I also like that my village is more of an artist community
       | (famous, and not so famous) more than a tech community. Generally
       | more interesting people for own personal tastes. Also, living
       | around the corner from my cookbook idol (to the extent that I
       | have cookbook idols) is both interesting and intimidating.
        
       | rmason wrote:
       | In Michigan there are software companies in small rural towns but
       | no where I know about is there a concentration.
       | 
       | I used to live in a small rural town West of Lansing when I
       | worked as an agronomist in a past career. I left to do a SaaS
       | startup and stayed local because this small town became a test
       | site for cable Internet. Note this was a time when neither
       | Lansing nor Grand Rapids had a broadband Internet option,
       | everything was dial up or ISDN if you were lucky.
       | 
       | My new office was across from city hall. I advocated to the city
       | father's that they spend a fraction of the money promoting it's
       | empty industrial park (every small town in Michigan has one) to
       | lure software companies to town promoting it's then rare
       | broadband Internet. They treated me as if I was advocating
       | building a spaceport for aliens. In fact if they saw me coming
       | they'd cross the street.
       | 
       | I found out years later that quite by accident a startup had
       | moved to the town specifically for the availability of broadband.
       | Now they only have around 25 employees twenty years later but in
       | a town of less than 3,000 I think that is still pretty good. But
       | with a small amount of effort they could have had a dozen such
       | companies ;<(.
        
         | pineconewarrior wrote:
         | Traverse City is becoming very techy. Over the course of the
         | pandemic I have witnessed a lot of folks coming in from
         | Chicago, etc, to work remotely, or to do tech work for one of
         | the decent web/it/finance/insurance/medical companies here.
         | 
         | P.S. we are hiring web dev and analytics/data engineer if you
         | know anyone in the area!
        
           | rmason wrote:
           | Traverse City is amazing, but you already know that ;<).
           | However I have problems dealing with winter in East Lansing
           | so I can only imagine how bad it would be up there. You
           | better like snowmobiling or skiing. But for seven months out
           | of the year it's absolute perfection.
        
       | coward123 wrote:
       | I live in a town of 35,000 people, where the economies of several
       | counties in each direction are based in agriculture. There are
       | tech people here - and I expected there would be a lot more by
       | now - but it is very slow growth. Internet service isn't bad,
       | there is a small co-working space or two, but the bigger issue is
       | one of demographics. We have a lot of retirees coming for
       | sunshine and a perceived more affordable lifestyle, but younger
       | people are slow to want to bring their families here even if they
       | could be remote workers. There are a couple small tech firms
       | (like under 10 employees), but none of the biggest issues is that
       | there are really only two smallish employers who can offer any
       | kind of competitive compensation. That risk - that you are
       | reliant on remote work - keeps a lot of people from being willing
       | to move here.
        
       | ryandrake wrote:
       | Not to gatekeep the word rural, but: Problem with some of these
       | replies is they're pointing out small cities, not rural areas.
       | When I (and maybe OP) think "rural/pastoral" I am thinking
       | villages with less than 500 people. A house on 2 or more acres
       | where you can't see your neighbor is considered a small property.
       | _That's_ rural. Not Asheville or Fort Collins. Those are just
       | small cities.
        
         | wildrhythms wrote:
         | Every time threads like this come up it humbles me to realize
         | how many people have never actually seen, much less lived in, a
         | rural setting. Yes this is gatekeeping, but it serves a purpose
         | to set a realistic perspective. See below for folks who think
         | 'rural' means a suburb of a major city.
        
           | [deleted]
        
           | dkarp wrote:
           | The difficulty for me is that I've been to very rural areas,
           | I've stayed in rural areas and I've had friends/family in
           | rural areas. And I do mean actually rural areas away from
           | towns and cities.
           | 
           | I've never lived there though and it is hard to get a feel
           | for what would actually bother you until you've spent a
           | significant amount of time there.
        
           | datavirtue wrote:
           | I live in a blue collar neighborhood in Cincinnati where a
           | lot of the people dream of one day living in a rural setting.
        
         | kodah wrote:
         | I'm curious why HN is continually so confused by the word
         | "rural", certain subjects almost always fall apart on this
         | website because of folks confusion over the word.
        
           | majinuub wrote:
           | I'm thinking that its because many HN users live in or close
           | to medium to large sized cities. So they have no perspective
           | when it comes to a place that's truly rural. They just see
           | that some small city has no high rises or large companies and
           | just assume "that must be a rural town."
        
           | mgarfias wrote:
           | Its because most here have never really been rural. Rural is
           | a place to drive past or fly over on to something
           | interesting.
        
           | Dracophoenix wrote:
           | It's confusing because the Census Bureau's definition quite
           | doesn't capture the essence or totality of what makes an area
           | "rural". It only operates on numbers and self-reported
           | designations, neither of which encapsulate what OP would
           | expect.
        
         | Simon_O_Rourke wrote:
         | I'd agree with this, and through it would suggest having a tech
         | community, or indeed any interest based community would be
         | unlikely with that few people.
        
         | hitpointdrew wrote:
         | I hit on some of those where I live.                   2 or
         | more acres: Yes         can't see your neighbor: No
         | Less than 500 people: No, just about double that at 1k
         | 
         | I consider where I live pretty rural. In my town there isn't a
         | lot of "tech" people that I know of but 15 min away there is a
         | small "city" with about 15k population that has an active co-
         | working space that is all tech people (its like 20ish person
         | group).
         | 
         | Even in the "city" that is 15 min away, there is never any real
         | traffic, not like what you get in a major city. I never worry
         | about hitting traffic, I can come and go to the co-working
         | space at will without ever a thought of "I better leave before
         | rush hour hits".
        
       | rayiner wrote:
       | > I would like to live a more pastoral life, but anecdotally I've
       | heard that people tend to be very different to those you find in
       | a city.
       | 
       | You don't even have to get that far out of the city to get away
       | from city people. I'm just an hour from DC, in a part of Maryland
       | where there are still quite a few farms within a 5 minute drive,
       | and it's like night and day compared to the city. And I even have
       | fiber internet! Strongly recommend it.
        
       | binarysolo wrote:
       | Short answer: depending on your definition of rural, yes, there
       | are def pockets of tech folks in rural areas.
       | 
       | These rural areas with tech folks tend to be outer suburbs of
       | cities and/or niche touristy/outdoor places -- basically work-
       | remote tech folks who live at an area to enjoy the other aspects
       | the land can offer.
       | 
       | I run a remote-first business around Lake Tahoe in Nevada and
       | there's def large pockets of CA tech expatriates here settling
       | down here, but this area isn't exactly rural, it's a big tourist
       | town. As you go east you end up in the desert and it gets pretty
       | rural, and there's def a tech segment out there though it's
       | highly correlated with a communal/art scene courtesy of Burning
       | Man (art hippies that happen to tech).
        
       | prettyStandard wrote:
       | After reading the comments about rural vs suburb you'll probably
       | find it in a suburb/smaller cities.
       | 
       | https://www.ruralsourcing.com/development-centers/
        
         | prettyStandard wrote:
         | I've had a few friends work there, and interviewed as few
         | times. It's pretty meh.
         | 
         | One time they gave me an offer for exactly what I told them I
         | was already making. I would not go there unless I had to.
        
       | rel2thr wrote:
       | Getting a bit pricey now but lots of tech workers in the small
       | towns 1-2 hours from Austin . Like Bastrop , liberty hill ,
       | Lockhart , etc
        
         | scarecrowbob wrote:
         | I started my career as a programmer out in Fredericksburg.
         | 
         | I think that it was good to be able to be able to get into
         | Austin/ SA for meetings and then live in the sticks. I'm in
         | Western CO now... there are a lot of tech workers in the small
         | town where I live.
        
       | hax0rbana wrote:
       | Co-founder of Hax0rbana here. I now live in a metro area of about
       | 120K. Prior to that, I lived in the DC area and LA before that. I
       | mention this for 2 reasons: 1. I don't know if you consider my
       | situstion to be rural. The town is surrounded by cornfields, but
       | I'll leave that to you to decide. 2. It's clear some people
       | answering are clearly city folks. That's fine, but they only know
       | the stereotypes about rural folks being uneducated, straight,
       | poor, etc.
       | 
       | Urbana, IL has a University of Illinois campus. In other words,
       | it's a college town. To give you an idea of the culture, churches
       | have pride flags painted on their signs and hang black lives
       | matter banners. The main event at annual engineering open house
       | is robo brawl, a scaled down version of battle bots. We have art
       | scattered around town, made by local artists. The Independent
       | Media Center has things ranging from a Makerspace, to a bicycle
       | repair community, to books to prisoners. If you show up wanting
       | to learn something, people will be happy to share what they know.
       | 
       | For amemities, we have gigabit fiber run by a regional company.
       | If you want Comcast, they're here to. We have one of the best
       | public transit systems in the country.
       | 
       | This doesn't describe all rural areas/smaller towns.
       | 
       | When we were selecting a city to start our hacker co-housing
       | project, we factored in many things: cost of living, having smart
       | people around, weather, taxes, civil rights, and of course the
       | town's culture (with bigotry being the primary concern).
       | 
       | I think the main takeaway is to choose the location carefully.
       | Not all rural areas are alike, just like not all big cities are
       | alike. Think about the things that matter to you, and measure
       | potential destinations based on those criteria. If it's critical
       | that you have a goth club or something like that, you'll probably
       | end up in a bigger city.
        
       | khaled_ismaeel wrote:
       | Innopolis, Russia, is such a community. It's a small city built
       | around a university and tech complex. The population is around
       | 3,000 or something and the nature is exquisite.
        
       | stevenking86 wrote:
       | Asheville NC seems to be turning into a "work remote" tech hub. I
       | moved here during the pandemic and have met many tech workers
       | just walking around my neighborhood. Technically it's a city
       | (looks like ~90k population), but coming from NYC it certainly
       | feels like nature to me. There are streams and mountains and back
       | yards.
        
       | solumos wrote:
       | you should go check out Epic Systems in Verona, WI
        
       | severine wrote:
       | Have you heard about CORI or the Rural Innovation Network
       | communities?
       | 
       |  _The Center on Rural Innovation (CORI) is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit
       | organization partnering with rural leaders across the country to
       | build digital economies that support scalable entrepreneurship
       | and lead to more tech jobs in rural America._
       | 
       | https://ruralinnovation.us/community-impact/rural-innovation...
       | 
       | https://ruralinnovation.us/
       | 
       | Not affiliated, just found it prompted by your question, looks
       | very interesting!
        
       | rich_sasha wrote:
       | Uk Oxford and Cambridge are bona fide tech hubs, and towns of
       | ~150k people but in either you can totally live in a village with
       | a 20-30 min bike commute.
       | 
       | We're talking cows in pastures and dark skies. Hell, I know
       | someone who helped raised some cattle on a common in return for a
       | share of the meat... while actually within Oxford City
       | boundaries.
        
       | TheGigaChad wrote:
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | stickfigure wrote:
       | I live on rural property about an hour from SF. My neighbors
       | aren't techies, but they really aren't that different. Lots of
       | older/retired people, plenty of maker-type people. Out here
       | there's space to have shops, tractors, and physically large
       | projects. I can't discuss programming with my neighbors but
       | welding, electronics, gardening, and construction are fun topics.
       | 
       | I still see many of my Bay Area friends; weekend parties at my
       | place are way more fun than parties in their tiny city
       | houses/apartments. And we still keep in touch remotely.
       | 
       | Not every rural area is the same; I also lived for a year in
       | eastern Kentucky and the people are indeed a bit different there.
       | But I still made friends, and I'm not a major extrovert or
       | anything.
        
         | dogman144 wrote:
         | This is an area I'm looking to move to, from Santa Rosa up to
         | Ukiah but way east Bay looks interesting.
         | 
         | What is the fire risk like? I'm comfortable with everything
         | else via Starlink, remote job that'll stay remote, and similar.
        
         | njoubert wrote:
         | Wow! Which direction from SF??
        
           | AnishLaddha wrote:
           | probably north, marin county is beautiful.
        
           | ISL wrote:
           | Here's everywhere reachable within about an hour's drive from
           | SF.
           | 
           | https://app.traveltime.com/search/0-lng=-122.41991&0-tt=60&0.
           | ..
        
       | mgarfias wrote:
       | Yes, we are very different. I live just outside a small town
       | (800people). We are definitely not a "tech" community, but we
       | have a fiber network thats getting upgraded to 10Gbps sometime
       | this summer.
       | 
       | I'm about 3mi outside of town on 5 acres of trees, and I care
       | barely see my neighbor. Its pretty quiet except for the
       | occasional truck driving up the hill. Oh, and the neighbors (or
       | me) occasionally shooting at something.
       | 
       | I highly recommend it, if you can deal with the lack of people
       | and the generally conservative lifestyles/beliefs. If you're a
       | libertarian, just leave me alone, type, it works just fine.
        
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