[HN Gopher] The one time North Vietnam's MiGs attacked U.S. navy...
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The one time North Vietnam's MiGs attacked U.S. navy warships
Author : vinnyglennon
Score : 41 points
Date : 2022-04-23 19:33 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.thedrive.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.thedrive.com)
| wheelerof4te wrote:
| ethanbond wrote:
| One thing was trying to shore up France's SE Asia colonies
| because Charles de Gaulle had directly threatened that France
| would have to fall into the USSRs orbit if it lost them.
| wheelerof4te wrote:
| So, some guy in France grows balls of steel to challenge
| Uncle Sam and what does Uncle Sam do?
|
| He goes to war against some helpless asians to later have an
| excuse to abandon the gold system. Such freedom, democracy
| and respect for human rights!
| ethanbond wrote:
| That's... an interpretation I suppose.
| krastanov wrote:
| I do not think your combative tone is necessary. Pretty
| much everyone slightly on the liberal spectrum and plenty
| of conservative people would agree that what America did in
| Vietnam was immoral or a blunder or an embarrassment or a
| betrayal of the ideals of freedom and democracy.
| refurb wrote:
| The same guy in France already at war to reclaim their lost
| colonies? Huh?
| [deleted]
| dekervin wrote:
| Wow ! Not even a hundred years has passed and we already have
| those far fetched self-serving delusions posing as historical
| analysis ? How about... cynically bleed out communists
| willingness to fight in one place, to deter any other place
| in south east asia to even think about charting an
| independant course ? It's as good as any other explanation
| IMHO.
| refurb wrote:
| Delusions? It's right in the Pentagon Papers.
|
| France had no ability to reclaim its former colonies after
| WW2. They want Indochina back as a colony and the US wanted
| to stop communist expansion there. France let it be known
| without support in Indochina it may not be as helpful in
| Western Europe.
|
| Nothing new here.
| wheelerof4te wrote:
| That is an even lamer excuse.
|
| "We attacked them because they are the filthy communists!"
|
| So what?! _They_ are the communists, not you. If it works
| for them, does it need to work for you? If capitalism works
| for the US, does it have to work for Vietnam or any other
| country?
|
| I believe that the true reason for war was refusal of the
| US to hand over the gold to France and other countries
| which foolishly kept some of their gold in the US. Of
| course, the gold was either spent or confiscated by US.
|
| So, the US needed to fabricate a huge spending operation to
| justify the fiat expansion of the USD, leading ultimately
| to the creation of the petrodollar system which replaced
| the old gold system. And what better spending operation
| than a war? Even better, a war thousands of miles away from
| home, against far weaker enemy forces.
|
| Nevertheless, those forces prevailed in the end. But the
| true winner still, was the US. It had unshackled itself
| from the world's gold-backed financial system and ushered
| in a new era of dominance.
| trhway wrote:
| 2x250kg bombs and relatively minor damage. The modern anti-ship
| missiles seems to have couple things going for them - hitting the
| ship at their terminal velocity they explode once they got inside
| the ship, and they naturally hit more closer toward the
| center/bulk of the ship. The 1982 Sheffield hit as well as the
| recent Moskva hit - both with sub 250kg warheads - illustrate
| that. Moskva burning https://t.me/milinfolive/81443,
| https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/04/18/photos-appear-to-s...
| erdewit wrote:
| On the photo of the Moskva I can't really see a missile impact.
| trhway wrote:
| Even large Styx missile leaves only less than 10 feet wide
| entry hole. The Neptune's one would be like 3 feet. It
| exploded inside. Everyone inside that superstructure died.
| [deleted]
| monocasa wrote:
| I think the Moskva is also built for a naval doctrine that
| doesn't make sense for Russia anymore. Just about any ordance
| will take out a missile cruiser like that because the cruise
| missiles in the launch tubes will detonate and finish your work
| for you. Missile cruisers being the back bone of your fleet
| only make sense when you can trade ship for ship and win out on
| industrial capacity to build ships. That doesn't really apply
| to Russia, but the USSR could have convinced itself in the 70s
| that it applied to them.
| trhway wrote:
| on the photo it looks like the cruise missiles didn't
| detonate on Moskva - all 4 rows of the tubes on that left
| side are visible through the smoke and intact.
|
| The Moskva doctrine was based on not being hit :) as it was
| supposedly the ship with a very capable air-defense. In
| particular it was it's role to provide "umbrella" air defense
| to that assault fleet group near Odessa. The air defense
| based on S-300 was outdated though (and they decided to not
| spend money on it's upgrade during the most recent Moskva
| modernization few years ago) and while in theory capable of
| dealing with those anti-ship missiles, it faced a new type of
| target - drone - which was harassing the fleet and taking
| attention away before these 2 missiles came in.
| daniel-cussen wrote:
| How do you have this much visibility on the Russian Navy?
| Spooky23 wrote:
| The operating theory was that these ships would basically
| fire off their load, take out a carrier, and then do
| whatever.
|
| Survivability isn't really part of the equation. On the
| smaller Soviet scale, the Namchucka missile corvettes are an
| even more in your face example. (You can tour one in Fall
| River, Mass at battleship cove) These things would operate
| inshore, and once they fire their missiles, they are detected
| and get blown up.
| SapporoChris wrote:
| Being raised USA centric and mostly hearing the dogma, I always
| appreciate hearing stories from the other side. The difference of
| opinion, even when I don't agree, is refreshing.
| ilamont wrote:
| These small, risky, and ineffective raids (in the large scheme of
| things) have huge a psychological impact on the winners and
| losers _if they are publicized_.
|
| The Doolittle Raid (https://www.history.navy.mil/browse-by-
| topic/wars-conflicts-...) was one such raid. The U.S. played it
| to the hilt. Japan couldn't ignore it or cover it up because it
| took place right over Tokyo.
|
| The Belgorod Raid
| (https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/4/1/russia-alleges-ukrai...)
| was a huge PR victory for Ukraine, showing its helicopters are
| capable of striking behind enemy lines. I'm not sure ordinary
| Russians were as awed, or even if they were made aware of what
| happened.
| twic wrote:
| Operation Black Buck is also probably an example of this -
| Vulcan bombers flying a sixth of the way around the Earth,
| using a pyramid of tankers for refuelling, dropping some bombs
| ineffectively on an Argentinian-held airport, then flying back:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Black_Buck
| sofixa wrote:
| The UK were so lucky with the Falklands war.. had the
| Argentines waited a year 3/4 of the UK military hardware used
| to retake the islands ( aircraft carriers, bombers, etc.)
| would have been decommissioned due cost cutting measures.
| the_af wrote:
| Realistically, it was impossible for us (Argentines) to
| hold by military force to the islands. I'm sure all sort of
| things could have gone worse for the UK, but we were a
| military insignificant[0] country (ruled by an incompetent
| dictatorship) against a military power allied to the US.
|
| [0] no disrespect meant to our soldiers, who did what they
| could in a senseless war.
| ncann wrote:
| TIL one of the two pilots in this incident is named Nguyen Van
| Bay, yet is not the same Nguyen Van Bay who is a famous jet
| fighter ace for the Vietnam People's Air Force.
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