[HN Gopher] Principles of Engineering Management
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Principles of Engineering Management
        
       Author : im_dario
       Score  : 328 points
       Date   : 2022-04-25 13:52 UTC (9 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (acjay.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (acjay.com)
        
       | osigurdson wrote:
       | "Distribute problems, not solutions" makes sense.
       | 
       | Making sure that the problems are the right ones to work on is
       | pretty important as well.
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | lifeisstillgood wrote:
       | We are putting too much into the word "management"
       | 
       | - supervision (did you turn up on time, are you capable of doing
       | the basic functions needed)
       | 
       | - coaching (this team needs someone to do X, but I have two Ys.
       | One goes or one changes)
       | 
       | - administration (budgets, projects, scheduling etc). Certainly
       | the part most at threat from software - looking at you Project
       | Manahers
       | 
       | - strategic decision making (yeah that's the part everyone wants
       | to do because it's the big bucks with years before anyone can
       | judge you. It is also oddly under threat - not from software but
       | from voting - my guess is most strategy is going to be voted for
       | in twenty years. don't like the strategy - binding vote at the
       | AGM for new Board. would save Elon the effort of buying twitter)
       | 
       | All four of these (and I am sure MBA text books have better
       | selections) are wildly different, at different levels of an org
       | and need different skill sets and people. just thinking we could
       | ever ask one person to get on with it all is crazy.
        
         | travisgriggs wrote:
         | This resonates with a basic "anti management" feeling I have. I
         | don't hate managers as people. I often really like them. But I
         | hate what the title "manager" does to people. Like "domestic
         | engineers" and "waste engineers" of the past, it's basically
         | become a title grab for "get paid more money." In particular
         | for managers, it usually establishes a "the principal said I
         | can climb higher than you on the jungle gym, and from this
         | point, I'm to wield authority over how you play on said gym."
         | They may even protest "how bad it is up here" and "how I'm
         | suffering for you."
         | 
         | What I really wish would happen, is that we'd abolish the title
         | "manager" as overly vague and oft abused, and instead just call
         | it what it is.
         | 
         | - Public Relations (go to meetings)
         | 
         | - Clerk (push papers, manage minutia)
         | 
         | - Meeting Caller/Planner
         | 
         | - etc
         | 
         | Anecdotally, an off the cuff euphemism from my Advanced Fluid
         | Dynamics Professor in the early 90's still holds too true all
         | to oft in my experience. He had great rapport with our class of
         | ~100 students. After one test, the class was collectively
         | whining about grading to a curve. After humoring us for a bit,
         | he said something like "Look, you A students, you're going to
         | go out in industry for a bit, but the lack of idealism is going
         | to frustrate you, and you'll be back here soon with me. You B
         | students know what compromise is. When it's good enough. That's
         | why you're going to make great engineers." And then he turned
         | to begin his lecture like that was it. And someone yelled out
         | "wait, what about us C students." "Management" was his terse
         | reply.
         | 
         | (Apologies to the venn intersection of managers <-> HN readers
         | <-> "A" students.)
        
           | gkop wrote:
           | What does engineering leadership mean to you? What factors
           | make it easier or harder to practice engineering leadership?
           | 
           | For me, I like having a budget and a staff - it's way easier
           | to influence my organization with a budget and a staff, than
           | without.
           | 
           | I'm saying this only to encourage engineering leaders not to
           | be afraid of formal management roles. You can make them your
           | own. You might find what I found.
        
             | travisgriggs wrote:
             | I have worked in the classical management structure a good
             | chunk of my career. And a couple of times (including mostly
             | right now), I have worked in something that feels more like
             | a basketball team with zero or little management. Competent
             | engineers play the court together and get the job done. I
             | prefer (greatly) this second model.
        
       | deeptote wrote:
       | This is typical, MBA armchair psychology.
       | 
       | Here's the real Principals of Engineering Management, according
       | to pretty much every middle manager, director, and vp I've ever
       | worked with:
       | 
       | 1. Be caviling and pedantic, so you can reinforce your position
       | of petty power.
       | 
       | 2. Contribute exactly zero code, infrastructure, etc. Basically,
       | anything that actually provides value to the engineers or the
       | customers, you don't touch.
       | 
       | 3. Put at least a couple meetings on the calendar every day of
       | every engineer that they don't need to be at to remind them you
       | rule over their time.
       | 
       | 4. Push nebulous "goals", then have very set goals when it comes
       | time to promote/give a pay raise an engineer and then insist they
       | aren't quite there.
       | 
       | 5. Put engineers on-call instead of hiring support staff, again
       | to remind the engineer that you own their time, even when they're
       | not at work.
       | 
       | 6. Constantly seek updates from engineers, so many in fact that
       | they can't complete the work on time, then promptly blame the
       | engineers for not delivering.
       | 
       | "Managers" are people with business degrees who failed out of
       | anything technical. Real managers are architects and PMs who
       | actually understand the product and the technical lift it takes
       | to actually make things happen. They don't concern themselves
       | with your comings-and-goings, but whether you can get things done
       | or not.
        
         | brimble wrote:
         | Ah, software "engineering"--the fastest path to professional-
         | tier wages coupled with blue-collar or service industry social
         | standing.
        
         | nealabq wrote:
         | I think it's helpful to consider these points, and try not to
         | be put off by the bitter tone.
         | 
         | As an employee you have to consider the workplace culture, and
         | your manager's attitude towards his/her "resources"
         | (employees). This is a list of danger signs. You want to be
         | watch for dysfunctional behaviors like this creeping into your
         | work environment, and either combat them if you can, or find a
         | new position. Or, you can accommodate/enable and try to
         | insulate yourself, which is OK in the short-term, as you work
         | towards a longer-term solution.
         | 
         | The culture of the organization and the management chain above
         | you greatly affects your satisfaction and mental well-being. I
         | assure you that, although no workplace is perfect, a few are
         | pretty darn good. And sometimes it's possible to exert
         | influence. Try not to sink too far into cynicism because there
         | is a lot of incompetence and selfish self-interest out there.
         | Use your skills of observation and writing to make things
         | better, or find a place where that's possible.
         | 
         | Sorry if this is preachy.
        
           | deeptote wrote:
           | It's not preachy at all! You're more eloquent than I am and
           | yes, I'm a tad bitter about some of my recent work
           | experience.
           | 
           | I'm grateful to report that I'm in an awesome situation now
           | and my manager and I get along swimmingly.
        
         | broast wrote:
         | As an engineer, I have never worked under a manager who wasn't
         | previously an engineer. YMMV
        
         | higeorge13 wrote:
         | For some reason they downvote you, but your post has some
         | truth. I really wish EM wasn't only about people management,
         | hiring and goals but actual technical leadership. I want my
         | manager to care for my wellbeing, be empathetic etc. as the
         | post and common sense suggest, but i prefer he could provide
         | some technical direction to the team (not let the team leads
         | figure it out themselves), collaborate closely with product and
         | leadership, make time for engineering to solve hard problems
         | and tech debt and not just deliver d2d features and so on. I
         | would expect EMs coming from IC roles to have this mindset, but
         | most of the time they are stuck to non technical
         | responsibilities and i really cannot understand why this role
         | has become like this.
        
           | gkop wrote:
           | If you have the energy and curiosity to be an EM, please do
           | give it a try. The industry needs compassionate and highly
           | technical EMs.
        
         | onion2k wrote:
         | _according to pretty much every middle manager, director, and
         | vp I 've ever worked with_
         | 
         | You might be right and every manager is terrible, but it's
         | worth noting that the common denominator in all of these
         | interactions is you.
        
           | deeptote wrote:
        
         | dboreham wrote:
         | > Put engineers on-call instead of hiring support staff
         | 
         | Note that in some jurisdictions (including the USA) this is
         | problematic from a labor law perspective.
        
           | wnolens wrote:
           | I really wish. But it is the standard. 90% of jobs I see
           | involve building some online service. On call is as part of
           | the job as writing code is.
        
             | lostcolony wrote:
             | Everywhere I've worked has had on call rotations. Literally
             | everywhere. Nowhere have devs been the first line of
             | support (i.e., not "instead of" per the parent post, but
             | "as well as"), but they've been in the mix.
             | 
             | Quite frankly, I wouldn't want to work somewhere that
             | didn't. I have a huge problem with the idea of "my team
             | wrote the code, and now isn't responsible for it". I
             | intentionally optimize against "avoid 2 AM pages", and that
             | ensures I push for enough testing and such to avoid them.
             | If it was "someone else's problem", the only pressure I'd
             | be under is to deliver ASAP, and that's unhealthy.
        
       | brianhorakh wrote:
       | As an introverted high iq nominal eq person with an execution
       | bias I routinely find companies that are keen to move me into
       | senior leadership roles. This post reinforces why I want to work
       | for a good manager but also how I have zero desire to become one.
        
       | nolawi89 wrote:
       | this seems basic to me
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | thecryptodiver wrote:
       | This is such a great read! 100% agreed!
        
       | havkom wrote:
       | As an engineering manager myself I concur with all the points.
       | 
       | Some of them are difficult though, for example:
       | 
       | "optimize the dual objectives of delivering value to the
       | organization and giving individuals problems that build their
       | skillset, impact, satisfaction, ..."
       | 
       | and
       | 
       | " Managers with excellent execution skills and deep domain
       | knowledge must resist the urge to present solutions to their
       | reports."
       | 
       | To what extent should one allow suboptimal solutions, failure or
       | allow employees to do things inefficiently with their "favorite
       | tech stack" (in cases where it does not add business value) ?
        
         | chrsig wrote:
         | As a non-manager, I find that having a company wide policy for
         | what tech stacks are supported really helps with that
         | particular concern. It should be a pretty easy "tap the sign"
         | sort of thing. And engineers should be able to understand that
         | technology spread has a very real cost that's hard to quantify.
         | It also has that cost over time as long as the software they
         | produce needs to be maintained.
         | 
         | For things that are much more personal -- allowing suboptimal
         | solutions for example -- those are teaching moments. You don't
         | dictate the solution, you educate on the problems that the
         | chosen solution exhibits and provide resources. Make
         | requirements clear. There's a decent chance that if they're
         | presenting a solution that you find suboptimal, then you
         | haven't communicated the requirements properly. Surface them
         | and re-scope the project as needed. Be sure to double check
         | that the things you're finding as suboptimal are actually
         | important as well. That is, don't be arrogant -- there's plenty
         | of room for the error to be on you, and that you're assuming
         | something may be suboptimal. Also consider that the person in
         | the weeds may have more context than you, and there may be
         | factors you're not considering.
         | 
         | Rely on concrete things like tests and metrics to guide those
         | discussions, so you're not evaluating on subjective matters.
         | Don't put value judgements on solutions, frame things as
         | decisions with trade offs. Those trade offs have ramifications
         | that you can discuss, and together you can navigate to a
         | workable solution.
         | 
         | Ultimately remember that even though you could give into the
         | urge to present solutions, it is not your job. Focus on your
         | job, and help your reports do theirs. If you don't like that,
         | get a different job.
        
         | dominotw wrote:
         | > To what extent should one allow suboptimal solutions
         | 
         | 100% of the time. After all you can't count yourself being
         | there to 'save the day' every single time, so whats the point
         | of interfering here and there randomly.
        
           | havkom wrote:
           | I agree (with some reservations, see my other reply to my
           | post)
        
         | havkom wrote:
         | My approach so far is to be very very allowing --- until any
         | failure becomes apparent and it can "naturally be discussed"
         | (or it causes problems with colleagues in the group).
         | 
         | This can be quite stressful though -- I do not think the people
         | reporting to me understands how much energy is spent as a
         | manager negotiating with others in order to give the team and
         | team members the most space/maneuverability that is possible.
        
           | chrsig wrote:
           | > I do not think the people reporting to me understands how
           | much energy is spent as a manager negotiating with others in
           | order to give the team and team members the most
           | space/maneuverability that is possible
           | 
           | Speaking from experience as an IC -- managers do an
           | absolutely terrible job of surfacing what they're working on.
           | 
           | What are you doing to broadcast your efforts? If you don't
           | tell them what you're doing, you can't expect them to know if
           | you don't tell them.
        
             | pkaye wrote:
             | Maybe use your one-on-one to discuss those things.
        
               | daok wrote:
               | I don't think 1-1 is the right time. If you have a team
               | of 15 people, you would need to repeat the same thing 15
               | times. Better to give an update of what you are working
               | on (as a manager) for the whole team once.
        
               | mateo411 wrote:
               | That's a large team. I don't think it makes sense to have
               | 15 direct reports. You probably want to split that into 2
               | teams so you can feed your team with two pizza boxes.
               | 
               | If you do have a team that large, then you need to have a
               | weekly or biweekly meeting with an agenda set beforehand.
               | You can make announcements and possibly have a rotating
               | presentation by somebody from the team about what they've
               | been working on.
               | 
               | If you are managing this many people, you are managing
               | people, projects and comms.
        
       | Irishsteve wrote:
       | I've been managing a while and a striking difference between
       | profitable established companies versus quasi profitable growth
       | companies is the culture of delivering value. It goes without
       | saying that you want your reports to thrive at work, and as a
       | manager you want to build a great atmosphere and culture.
       | 
       | But what I often miss from posts like this is focusing on the
       | value the group of individuals is meant to create (maybe it's
       | implied).
        
       | tschellenbach wrote:
       | Lot of misconceptions here that cause teams to underperform.
       | 
       | 1. Managing comes first. (Nope, as a manager your are primarily
       | responsible for ensuring a good outcome. As your title goes from
       | manager, senior, higher to VP etc this becomes more important.
       | Lower job titles you get paid to "do the work", higher titles are
       | about "achieve outcome".) In the current market you'll often run
       | into team members that don't perform. I see this so often where
       | leads think that they have to "manage" and not do the work and
       | the result is them and their team failing 2. Facilitate
       | wellbeing. That's nice. But your primary responsibility is to A.
       | Achieve the goal. B. hold people accountable to an acceptable
       | level of performance
       | 
       | Give credit, take blame: That's a good one.
       | 
       | This post is just full of vague language that doesn't hold anyone
       | accountable. Sucks to be an IC on that team, thinking everything
       | is going well and eventually end up having whole teams being
       | fired since your manager didn't set the right pace.
        
         | malfist wrote:
         | If you supplant your team and do the work yourself, you're not
         | helping the team perform. Nobody is learning lessons and
         | everyone, including yourself will just be more stressed and
         | less satisfied with the job.
         | 
         | If you can't trust your team to do the work, then you shouldn't
         | be managing those people. Management is about being a force
         | multiplier, and not the force.
        
         | bumby wrote:
         | I suspect you're right and the article conflates the means
         | (managing) to the end (achieving an outcome). It's not unlike
         | the military priority of 1) mission accomplishment and 2) troop
         | welfare.
         | 
         | But in fairness, "achieving outcome" is equally vague and it
         | seems most leaders know they want Outcome X, but falter because
         | they don't know how to get from their current state to that end
         | state.
         | 
         | Can you elaborate on how you'd fill those gaps of "achieve
         | outcome"?
        
           | and-not-drew wrote:
           | > It's not unlike the military priority of 1) mission
           | accomplishment and 2) troop welfare.
           | 
           | I hear what you're saying, but I would be careful taking a
           | military type model and applying it to a team of software US
           | engineers mainly because I think the power balance is so
           | different.
           | 
           | If I'm in the military and I tell one of my subordinates that
           | they need to dig trenches in the rain all weekend for the
           | next 6 weeks, they may bitch and moan, but they've signed a
           | contract so they're just kind of stuck. If I tell one of the
           | engineers on my team that they need to work weekends for the
           | next 6 weeks, they can probably have 3 interviews with other
           | companies lined up by Monday.
           | 
           | I agree that achieving results is still priority #1, but the
           | distance between that and #2 is very different.
        
             | seadan83 wrote:
             | The power balance aspect to me is extremely interesting. On
             | the one hand, there is a _lot_ of power a manager has: - do
             | you get the good assignments? - will your performance
             | review cherry-pick out-of-context a worst sampling of
             | 'goals' that were created in the last few weeks, or will it
             | be a glowing report of what you did?
             | 
             | I think those managers that ask their software engineers to
             | pound sand are generally going to be bad managers. Notably,
             | who should you ask advice from, someone that has designed
             | 10% of the system specs, or the person that designed 90%?
             | (Guess what, software engineers design about 90% of system
             | specs!) Citation needed, but the amount of specifications
             | that engineers have to fill in is quite mind boggling (what
             | happens to this web page if DB is slow? What happens when a
             | user clicks this button while this other thing is still
             | loading, etc..). So while the 90/10 split is an
             | exaggeration, the point remains, software development is a
             | highly collaborative activity, particularly with the
             | engineers. Some have said that a software's engineer main
             | job is to figure out how to achieve 80% of the benefit,
             | with 20% of the work. This aspect is missing from the
             | typical unit-level command and control example, notably the
             | "commanders" in software really don't know what the hell
             | they are talking about unless they engage in actual
             | conversations with the developers and users.
        
             | bumby wrote:
             | This is a perspective that is bandied about quite a bit,
             | but I don't think it's exactly true (or at least not true
             | to the extent presumed). Personally, I've only heard it
             | come from people who have little actual military
             | experience.
             | 
             | Leadership capital is a perishable resource in the
             | military. Junior troops are not dumb and if you treat them
             | like crap and just use the justification that they signed
             | the contract, you won't be a very effective leader. If I
             | leader has to use that type of tactic (or use their rank,
             | or whatever), it's an indicator they've messed up somewhere
             | along the way. The power dynamic isn't as cut-and-dry as
             | most outside the military think. It's not unheard of for
             | junior troops to get a bad leader fired, and in the
             | absolute worst cases junior troops can put a poor leader's
             | lives in danger. The idea that good military leaders would
             | tell their subordinates to pound sand because they signed a
             | contract is more of a trope than reality.
             | 
             | There's a surprising amount of times when the incentives
             | align for a military subordinate to NOT listen to orders
             | and leaders have to actually rely on the social capital
             | they've accumulated by building trusting relationships with
             | their subordinates.
        
       | tchalla wrote:
       | Many of these, could be principles for life.
        
       | ttoinou wrote:
       | Quite naive. Nothing has been said about what employees need to
       | follow. It is like, everything they can do is perfect, the
       | manager is always the one who needs to work on the relationship,
       | and there are no criteria to select / stop working with employees
       | (i.e. those rules will work with any team).
        
         | drewcoo wrote:
         | Well it's not called Principles of Engineering Non-Management.
        
         | xbar wrote:
         | It says none of that. At worst, it is incomplete as an
         | instruction manual, but it's a fine list of starting principles
         | for thinking about humans doing work.
        
       | PragmaticPulp wrote:
       | I consumed a lot of blog posts like this before becoming a
       | manager. It feels satisfying to read vague principles like this:
       | 
       | > Facilitate wellbeing
       | 
       | > Personal safety, dignity, and wellbeing of every team member
       | are paramount. Team success is only success if team members feel
       | good about it.
       | 
       | But then you become an actual manager and realize that these are
       | largely just feel-good aphorisms that don't really help navigate
       | the hard work of being a manager.
       | 
       | Don't get me wrong: I think "facilitate wellbeing" and similar
       | tidbits are valid advice. Likewise, a manager who chooses to
       | _not_ facilitate wellbeing would clearly be in the wrong. But
       | when you get into management you realize that the hard work isn
       | 't waking up and deciding to facilitate wellbeing. The hard work
       | often involves making unpopular decisions, or telling someone
       | "no" when their pet request wouldn't be in the best interests of
       | the team, or defusing interpersonal conflict among two team
       | members who have been feuding for months.
       | 
       | These feel-good blog posts seem rather vacuous after being in the
       | trenches of management for several years. Again, not because the
       | advice is _bad_ or _wrong_ , but because it's just a lot of text
       | around the basics of being a decent human being. Learning how to
       | do the hard things about management or how to make unpopular but
       | necessary decisions is something that you won't learn from the
       | average blog post or LinkedIn post, largely because these
       | function more as personal branding pieces than actual advice.
       | 
       | In my experience, the best management advice comes from talking
       | to the best managers you know personally. Online, the most
       | practical management advice comes on smaller forums where people
       | are either anonymous (and therefore less interested in personal
       | brand building) or older and accomplished (and therefore not
       | worried about blowback impacting their career). The type of feel-
       | good blog posts or LinkedIn blurbs that people associate with
       | their personal brand don't really add much value after you've
       | read 5-10 articles saying the exact same aphorisms.
        
         | kqr wrote:
         | > The hard work often involves making unpopular decisions, or
         | telling someone "no" when their pet request wouldn't be in the
         | best interests of the team
         | 
         | I realise I'm just plucking a small point out of a large
         | comment here, but I'd like to drill down into this one a
         | little.
         | 
         | My very limited experience is that teams can generally self-
         | manage this sort of thing. You tell them what you're trying to
         | optimise, under what constraints, and lay down some ground
         | rules for equal and fair participation, and then the team can
         | make their own tough decisions and tell each other when they're
         | not acting in the best interest of the team.
         | 
         | What am I missing?
        
           | jseban wrote:
           | > My very limited experience is that teams can generally
           | self-manage this sort of thing.
           | 
           | My experience is that they can absolutely not self-manage
           | these things, it leads to literally living out lord of the
           | flies in chaotic and dysfunctional teams, that are full of
           | infected conflicts and stalled progress.
           | 
           | On the other hand, what exactly is it that gives you the
           | impression that decision making is suddenly not needed? And
           | what makes you believe that a group of people with different
           | goals and interests, should spontaneously just "get along",
           | especially when there's money involved?
        
           | turdnagel wrote:
           | It entirely depends on the dynamics of the team.
        
         | willturman wrote:
         | > Again, not because the advice is bad or wrong, but because
         | it's just a lot of text around the basics of being a decent
         | human being.
         | 
         | Judging by the trends observed in the Great Resignation [1] and
         | the popularity of forums like /r/antiwork, it seems that the
         | basics of being a decent human being are often being overlooked
         | by management.
         | 
         | I took a very different interpretation of what facilitating
         | wellbeing looks like than you - interpreting facilitating
         | wellbeing as being flexible when team members need some time to
         | navigate their personal lives, scheduling project timelines and
         | scoping work to necessitate productive work while alleviating
         | burn-out, providing space for people to discuss ideas or
         | provide feedback in a team setting, allowing for growth or
         | transition into roles they may find more interesting or
         | rewarding. Facilitating wellbeing doesn't conflict with making
         | necessary but perhaps unpopular decisions, or de-prioritizing a
         | pet project or whatever - it's much more basic than that.
         | 
         | [1] https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/hr-topics/talent-
         | acqu...
        
           | marcinzm wrote:
           | >it seems that the basics of being a decent human being are
           | often being overlooked by management.
           | 
           | People working in tech companies may not realize how un-
           | decent a lot of other companies and their management are.
        
           | pkaye wrote:
           | There are a lot of shitty employers and employees around and
           | the rest are trying to avoid them by different means.
        
         | kemiller wrote:
         | I think this is a result of the persistent flawed way most
         | companies look at management. The author points at it when he
         | says that most managers are strong in execution, and that's
         | true -- it's viewed as the baseline trait for any manager. But
         | execution and maintaining well-being are fundamentally in
         | tension, and most of the time, execution wins if a choice is
         | forced. I think we need to be splitting the role into ones
         | focused on each of these competencies. This sometimes happens
         | informally as it is, but making it formal would change the
         | hiring patterns and maybe lead to better outcomes for everyone.
        
         | cjalmeida wrote:
         | You would be amazed at the number of managers that largely
         | ignore the "feel-good" part of the job, or even contribute to
         | the workplace being a crappy place to work.
         | 
         | Like the author said, actively improving the working
         | environment when possible earns you "currency" and trust into
         | making unpopular decisions easier to swallow.
        
         | vasco wrote:
         | This right here is the juice. Generic management advice is like
         | relationship advice. Be honest, care about the other person,
         | respect the other person and so on. But anyone that's been in a
         | relationship knows it's way more about breathing deep twice
         | when you see the dishes not clean or whatever annoys you than
         | the rest of it. Obviously you need to try and be honest, but
         | good outcomes are created first and foremost from adequately
         | dealing with daily situations in a balanced manner.
         | 
         | There's no playbook for being a good manager the same way
         | there's no playbook for being a good partner or a good parent.
         | The playbook would have to be too generic or too specific and
         | end up being mostly useless.
         | 
         | Best you can get is someone who genuinely tries to improve and
         | listens to you because they seem to care about you. If that
         | takes the form of "how was your weekend" in the beginning of a
         | 1-1 or having your back in a compensation review, that all
         | depends on the situations.
        
         | jahbrewski wrote:
         | Good feedback here. Do you have any example "smaller forums"
         | that you have found particularly helpful?
        
           | superzadeh wrote:
           | teams at work is a good one: https://bunch.ai/slack-community
        
         | hintymad wrote:
         | Similar feeling. These principles somehow do not help me make
         | decisions or build mechanisms for my teams. On the other hand,
         | the principles in the book Turn the Ship Around, the book No
         | Rules Rule, and Amazon's 14 leadership principles helped me a
         | lot because they give clear guidelines on how to make trade-
         | offs. In particular, Turn the Ship Around advocates pursuing
         | excellence instead of minimizing errors. Netflix advocates
         | Freedom and Responsibility. Amazon advocates working backwards
         | (customer obsession) and making two-way door decisions. More
         | importantly, they prescribe a system to balance trade-offs
         | especially when there's conflicting choices. For instance, Turn
         | the Ship Around explores how to make sure everyone delivers yet
         | the leader can fully delegate responsibilities -- it's not
         | surprising that it requires a system.
        
           | nickff wrote:
           | I was a bit skeptical of "Turn the Ship Around" because of
           | its title, and despite all the positive reviews, but it's one
           | of the best management books I've ever read. It's definitely
           | worth a read, even if you're not a manager, as it applies to
           | any team-related activity, and provides a useful toolkit for
           | improving your team, whether you're the leader or not.
        
             | hintymad wrote:
             | Yeah, the book also passes Taleb's Skin in the Game test:
             | the author is also the practitioner of what he wrote about.
        
         | ttoinou wrote:
         | Thank you for bringing a different opinion. I feel like the
         | "Thats the spirit!" crowd liking this kind of blog posts are
         | employees who don't know what their manager are going through
         | dealing with them
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | TameAntelope wrote:
         | I think "facilitate wellbeing" is more than just a feel-good
         | aphorism, because it really does help when there's a difficult
         | decision on your desk, at least for me.
         | 
         | My instinct is to push hard, let "the most correct" idea win,
         | and not really give a shit about how it impacts others. All, as
         | you know, awful, very bad, no good ways of managing. Being
         | reminded that one of my primary jobs is to "facilitate
         | wellbeing" helps keep me grounded.
         | 
         | Let someone take the day off even if there's a deadline
         | looming, be cool with a later start date than would be perfect,
         | take that vacation week and really don't plug in, a) for
         | yourself and b) to show that as acceptable behavior for your
         | team to do as well.
         | 
         | None of this is how I, naturally, would behave, and I need to
         | be reminded and continually work at doing things like that, for
         | the sake of the health of my team. None of this is theoretical
         | in my view, I see it as specific and practical advice.
        
           | hitekker wrote:
           | What you're speaking of is "Prioritize Wellbeing" which is a
           | worthy belief to hold and to remind ourselves as engineering
           | managers.
           | 
           | However, the specific word used by the OP is "Facilitate"
           | which gives managers the leeway to be weak and lazy. A
           | manager can say "I let my team take PTO a few days each
           | quarter, I facilitated their well-being!" while they
           | passively allow their stakeholders to dictate the workload of
           | their engineers, with zero pushback. In practice,
           | "Prioritize" basically means conflict and action,
           | "facilitate" means whatever the manager wants it to mean.
           | 
           | Going further: most "principles" like the kind the OP wrote
           | are designed for a manager's self-therapy. Beliefs that
           | justify decisions the manager has already taken, dressed up
           | in nice-looking words, the kind of drivel that influencers
           | peddle on LinkedIn. Whereas real principles that the GP
           | refers to are meant for self-discipline. Beliefs that call
           | into question decisions, and force the manager to really
           | think their next steps through carefully.
        
             | TameAntelope wrote:
             | I just don't see how you can read "facilitate wellbeing"
             | and be this upset about it, especially given how you feel
             | about "prioritize wellbeing".
        
               | [deleted]
        
               | [deleted]
        
               | [deleted]
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | lbriner wrote:
         | You are right but there is something that has to underpin all
         | of this advice and that is openness, honesty and balance.
         | 
         | Openness because you should be able to communicate _why_
         | something might not be possible in unambiguous terms; honesty
         | so people know they can trust you and that you will tell people
         | the truth and not try and avoid it; and balance because you
         | will be prepared to go some distance for an employee for the
         | benefit of the business but this is not unlimited.
         | 
         | It can be hard to tell someone they are not performing well but
         | it is much easier with those principles in mind, "I think these
         | are areas that you are not performing well in, if I can help
         | you achieve those then please let me know how, otherwise I need
         | someone who can do this job that you were employed to do".
        
         | tootie wrote:
         | It also seems like 99% of management advice is about how to
         | manage down. Not topics like how to set expectations with
         | stakeholders, how to fight for budget, how to get your team
         | positioned for highly visible work.
        
       | photochemsyn wrote:
       | This sounds pretty good, all these are qualities anyone would
       | want in their manager if they had a job doing 'the critical path
       | of execution'. There's few things more frustrating than
       | continually having to halt in the middle of one task to jump over
       | to another task because someone's pants are on fire. Sure it
       | happens, but it should be the exception not the norm.
       | 
       | However, there's another side to the manager's job that doesn't
       | seem to be addressed - interfacing upwards with whatever layers
       | link to owners, founders, the board, shareholders, etc. How does
       | that exactly work out in practice? Let's say leadership makes
       | what you think are really stupid decisions with disastrous
       | longterm consequences (ex: Boeing 737 MAX design process, Google
       | signing up with China to build Dragonfly, etc.). What do you do?
       | Pour gasoline on yourself and set yourself on fire in protest, or
       | roll your eyes in despair and proceed to assign your team to the
       | task?
        
         | 0xbadcafebee wrote:
         | - Choose and limit your battles
         | 
         | - Provide data to make an argument
         | 
         | - Put your concerns in writing
         | 
         | - Challenge your manager to ask their bosses tough questions
         | 
         | - Form coalitions with other managers to try to solve problems
         | together
         | 
         | - Ask for a skip level (IMHO once a quarter, not just to
         | address business problems but to maintain good relationships)
         | 
         | - If your employees are still at risk and upper management does
         | nothing, threaten to quit
        
           | joshbetz wrote:
           | Be honest with the people who report to you about your
           | feelings. You don't have to go out of your way to stir up
           | trouble, but if people come to you with concerns that you
           | share, it can be very helpful to know that you're not alone
           | and your manager is on your side.
        
       | queuebert wrote:
       | I like how modern society has created a special caste for
       | sociopaths and then secondarily created an entire industry around
       | teaching the sociopaths how to act normal.
        
       | Ozzie_osman wrote:
       | > Optimize work distribution > Managers have a portfolio of work
       | that the business needs and people with work preferences.
       | Optimize the dual objectives of delivering value to the
       | organization and giving individuals problems that build their
       | skillset, impact, satisfaction, and/or advancement. Performance
       | is contextual; set people up to shine.
       | 
       | I find this so important. A good manager has a good mental map of
       | the business's short-term and long-term goals, and a
       | corresponding map of each person on the team's short-term and
       | long-term goals (and strengths/weaknesses) . This map requires
       | constant updating and refining. The magic happens in finding the
       | right fit between all of that.
        
         | lostcolony wrote:
         | I'll comment that this is also something that you can partially
         | delegate to the team.
         | 
         | A healthy team has a good understanding of one another's
         | strengths and weaknesses just from working with each other. A
         | manager should be trying to collect that feedback, as well as
         | use their own, then work with each member of the team to
         | determine what opportunities they need, to either demonstrate a
         | strength, or work on a weakness, and then create space to
         | socialize those needs. With the team aware of what one another
         | needs, they're able to all be on the lookout to identify and
         | highlight those opportunities.
         | 
         | Once the items the team definitively owns are being optimally
         | allocated by the team, the manager can look for opportunities
         | outside of the team's domain. They don't even need to be for
         | specific individuals, but things that the team would be able to
         | reasonably help with; then pitching them to the team, the team
         | can self-organize to determine who it's an opportunity for (and
         | then further break it down; maybe person A needs the
         | opportunity to lead a cross team initiative, but person B needs
         | the opportunity to dive deep into a technical implementation,
         | style of thing).
        
         | heisenbit wrote:
         | The key job of a manager is to say no. It is not to optimize
         | the work distribution but to control the scope of the work that
         | is done. A critical distinction between manager and leader is
         | the former has more focus managing shape of the playing field
         | and the rules while the latter is more concerned about pushing
         | towards results.
         | 
         | Last but not least management is about gaining, using and
         | maintaining power. Without it saying no is not possible.
        
       | the_arun wrote:
       | IMHO, we should add "Be Human first, everything else comes
       | later".
        
         | Taylor_OD wrote:
         | 100%. I've worked for a lot of bad managers and 2 good ones. 1
         | of the good ones wasnt a great human but an incredible teacher.
         | The other was an okay teacher but an incredible human. The
         | later I'm still in contact with and we've stayed in touch for 5
         | plus years.
         | 
         | A lot of what I'm looking for in a boss is just someone who
         | kind and understanding. It's shocking how low that is on most
         | managers agendas.
        
           | prmph wrote:
           | Well, as an engineering team lead for years, and recently
           | founder of a small gig, increasingly I've been shocked at how
           | many people (employees, contractors, prospective business
           | partners or co-founders) just want to take the easy way out,
           | instead of putting in honest, conscientious, reflective work
           | and effort, or are just plain incompetent at what they claim
           | to be good at.
           | 
           | Every once on a while you come across someone that is
           | enthusiastic, actually competent, and wants to do things to
           | the best of their ability (or a reasonable approximation
           | thereof), but those are few IMHO.
           | 
           | I mean, I know not all people can be interested in all
           | things, but if you say you're up for something, be it a job,
           | project, or partnership, you've got to give it your
           | reasonable best.
           | 
           | I think the need to be kind and nice all too often is abused
           | by their targets. The key is to find a way to be kind and
           | flexible, but not allowing that to paper over rank
           | incompetence or a bad attitude.
        
             | ttoinou wrote:
             | It's even worse than what you say sometimes : some people
             | are actually competent in engineering, but when it comes to
             | simply remembering basic stuff or communicating about what
             | they do -- total blackout. Meaning, they just want someone
             | else to manage every little thing they have to do, remember
             | the small details. And then they'd complain they don't like
             | to be micro managed
        
             | [deleted]
        
           | ttoinou wrote:
           | Maybe it's not just about the managers but also how do
           | employees treat the relationship with their managers. i.e.
           | it's a two way street
        
             | skeeter2020 wrote:
             | It is, but I think it's the manager's job to be the first
             | to take the emotional risks, and continue to do so even
             | when they're not immediately reciprocated.
        
               | ttoinou wrote:
               | If the other doesn't know you moved forward, why would
               | he/she change his behavior ? It looks like the
               | relationship will continue as it began forever - one
               | sided.
        
               | chrsig wrote:
               | Well, if you're doing a good job of treating the
               | person...y'know, as a person, then you can ask them to
               | change their behavior. And generally they'll be amenable
               | to reciprocate.
               | 
               | Also: Why doesn't the other person know you've "moved
               | forward"? Try communicating that you have.
        
         | skeeter2020 wrote:
         | Agree! As an EM I've felt that the simple act of genuinely
         | caring about your people can get you a long way. So much of the
         | day-to-day execution falls into place when you follow your
         | prime directive, and when you need to do unpleasant things
         | you've earned the legitimacy and trust handle them.
        
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