[HN Gopher] Stress hormone reduces altruistic behavior in empath... ___________________________________________________________________ Stress hormone reduces altruistic behavior in empathetic people Author : community Score : 187 points Date : 2022-04-26 17:38 UTC (5 hours ago) (HTM) web link (neurosciencenews.com) (TXT) w3m dump (neurosciencenews.com) | Mikeb85 wrote: | Of course it does. Hard to be altruistic when you're figuring out | your own survival. | | Anyone who says economics doesn't matter is wrong. | yboris wrote: | Direct link to article: _Altruism under Stress: Cortisol | Negatively Predicts Charitable Giving and Neural Value | Representations Depending on Mentalizing Capacity_ | | https://www.jneurosci.org/content/42/16/3445 | Khelavaster wrote: | Are the authors ignorant of the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone | system? Vasopressin reduces altruistic behavior in empathetic | people. Cortisol clasically raises vasopressin. | | Autism is characterized by low regulatory APVR2 (vasopressin | receptor 2) function, leading to high baseline vasopressin and | issues staying hydrated | JamesBarney wrote: | If they had high levels of baseline vasopressin, shouldn't this | make it easier to stay hydrated because it increase the amount | of fluid reabsorbed by the kidneys? | whatshisface wrote: | Not if the high levels were an incomplete response to very | low receptor performance. | | Biochemical signaling pathways are a mixture of negative- | feedback systems that do not assume anything about the | sensitivities of each receptor (because in a pure feedback | system the signal would be amplified until it activated the | receptor sufficiently) and "level-interpreting" (I don't know | the actual term) systems where each concentration | communicates a specific semaphore-like claim and if the | downstream receptor does not match the sender, it will get | the message wrong. One simple case where the second | phenomenon arises is when the production of the signalling | compound is prevented, by the finite ability of the cell to | make it, from rising to the levels that would agonize the | downstream receptor enough to achieve whatever the cell was | going for. | JamesBarney wrote: | That makes sense. | thomas536 wrote: | Re hydration | | Do you have any good reading on that link? Searched just now | and there's a lot to wade through to find a good article | Khelavaster wrote: | A. Research dates back to the 90s. Thousands of researchers | have added their perspectives. | | B. Look at what vasopressin does, in humans and other | mammals. | | C. Consider that Vasopressin Receptor 2, is right by the X | pseudoautosomal region, so is mutated 15x-20x more | frequently. Compare how often you've seen other | pseudoautosomal differences in people with Vasopressin | transcription differences. | | Or just start searching for random genes from around the | pseudoautosomal region + autism. Transcription differences in | one pseudoautosomal gene are so closely tied to differences | in others, you see a very unusually high number of | correlations between autism-uninvolved genes and autism. | (Just as so many genes around TNF-alpha/6p21.3 are spuriously | tied to autoinflammatory issues; major histocompatibility | complex issues; tenascin-X-tied disorders including Ehlers- | Danlos; and 17-hydroxysteroid-dehydrogenase-8 variance [which | deactivates androgens+estrogens, and synthesizes moderate | estradiol]. | | Or how so many genes near the adjacent corticotropin- | releasing-hormone-receptor-1 (CRHR1) and Tau protein (MAPT), | in the same area as DNA-repair-gene breast-cancer-associated1 | (BRCA1), are spuriously tied to irrecoverable oxidative cell | damage and neurodegeneration.) | | C...Some very important pseudoautosomal genes include the | final stage of melatonin synthesis (ASMT & ASMTL); antiviral | and anti-small-pathogen signal receptors, for interleukin 9 | and interleukin 3; SPRY3 lymphoid-to-myeloid switch | granulocyte-macrophage colony stimulating factor (GM-CSF); | cytokine-like-receptor 2 (CLRF); glycogenin 2 (starting-point | for muscle fibers); steroid sulfatase (activates androgens, | estrogens, progestogens); sex receptor Y and | protocadherin-11-Y (PCDH11Y) in men [causing heritable | father-to-daughter changes in protocadherin-11-X and near- | adhacent androgen receptor]. | | D. Also, check out the research from the last head of the | Kinsey Institute. They hired her for that | vasopressin+oxytocin triggers pair-bonding, and monogamy in | monogamous mammals. | | e.g. "Oxytocin and Vasopressin Circuits in Context of Love | and Fear", from the 'Vasopressin System in Behavior' edition | of Frontiers in Neuroendocrinology: https://www.frontiersin.o | rg/articles/10.3389/fendo.2017.0035... | | "Opposite effects of oxytocin and vasopressin on the | emotional expression of the fear response" https://www.scienc | edirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00796... | | Dune's Fremen are stellar thought-experiments of vasopressin- | driven folks who feel strong oxytocin boosts in their own | homes/territory. | tomatowurst wrote: | does he mean the body doesn't hydrate properly, or produce | saliva? or water bottles? | Khelavaster wrote: | I mean that the body most won't respond to signals to | reabsorb water from the bladder because of weak QVPR2 | activity. | | AVPR2 only shows up (significantly) in the kidneys. It | pumps water back from the bladder to the bloodstream. AVPR1 | and AVPR3 show up in the brain (and drive/control any | hormonal response tied to water | availability/quality/safety-to-access. Including | territorial mammals marking territory.) | | Vasopressin is actually a mirror-image of oxytocin, with a | few hundred million years of divergent mutations. Unique to | mammals. That's why mammals are the only vertebrates that | independently, separately, regulate water and ions. (Thus, | sweating, lactation, crying, uncalcified placenta vs egg, | etc.) | | So the brain keeps pumping out vasopressin (in response to | dehydration-induced corticotropin-releasing factor). This | leads to water "running right through". And high baseline | vasopressin levels that go even higher with dehydration. | | Less commonly, especially for men, the body overreacts to | vasopressin. Excessive vasopressin 2 receptor efficacy or | transcription leads to low baseline vasopressin. Low | vasopressin 'magnifies' any oxytocin activity. Leads to | "human-hyperstimulated" autism and high innate trust in | unfearful situations. Also often leads to low | territory/spatial mapping capacity. | | This is what we're talking about. | chownie wrote: | Maybe lack of a thirst urge, which would match my autistic | experience. | cinntaile wrote: | If you research something specific, it doesn't necessarily mean | you're oblivious to other things. They might just be outside of | the scope of your research. | Khelavaster wrote: | Exactly. Problematic when "lurking variables" with strong | correlated effects (like vasopressin activity in this study) | are of scope. | rg111 wrote: | While not a substitution for scientific study, I always _knew_ | this. | | When people are comfortable themselves, they tend to be more | kind, understanding, and altruistic. | | I also suspect that this is also a long-term phenomena as opposed | to the short-term implications featured in this study. | | When growing up, I have seen those people become altruistic, | helpful, and have more bandwidth for other people's mistakes | first who started earning comfortably first. | | My theory is this- being socio-economically comfortable with | peace in mind makes you more tolerant, altruistic, and kind | overall. | | Thus study mentions only "empathetic" people. But I think this | goes beyond them. | renewiltord wrote: | An interesting corollary of this is that comfortable and | wealthy people are going to be nicer to you than poor people. | slim wrote: | Since "socio-economically comfortable" is relative (some people | are socio-economically comfortable with much less than other | people) I'd argue it does not go beyond the general notion of | "empathetic people" | jjoonathan wrote: | Competition kills generosity. | fullshark wrote: | Competition also makes the world go round | [deleted] | necovek wrote: | Nope, it's gravity. | | And cooperation. Humans have risen above other species | because of their cooperative approach (eg. sharing | knowledge by passing it through language, forming | communities with broader goals to protect the entire | group, etc). | | This is pretty evident in all the stories of those | children raised by animals in the wild: none of them | develop much past their animal caretakers. | whirlwin wrote: | You could say the competition lies in maintaining and | creating new relationships, in order to be able to | cooperate well | Jensson wrote: | But competition is how we get out of local maxima, | disruptive improvements needs competition, they don't | happen through cooperation. | | For example, lets say you have a better way to make pots. | You show it to people, but nobody listens, they think | that their way of making pots is better. How do you | actually help them get benefit from your discovery? Well, | you set up a competition, so it can be clear to everyone | which way is best. Then you beat the old way of making | pots, they have to admit that they were wrong and now | everyone benefits (except the old pot makers who now has | to relearn their things and lose their status as | masters). | jjoonathan wrote: | > competition is how we get out of local maxima | | Careful. The prisoner's dilemma shows us that competition | can drive the system to the globally worst outcome. | wahern wrote: | Competition in the natural world is typically zero sum. | In the human world cooperation and competition aren't | mutually exclusive, and in fact we tend to build | societies that leverage competition for mutual gain--i.e. | cooperative competition. In any event, I _think_ the | point is that [altruistic, non-kin, systemic] cooperation | is the _distinguishing_ characteristic of the human | species, not that it 's the only dynamic at play or even | the one that predominates across all discrete social | interactions. | kizer wrote: | It's certainly a privilege to be generous, almost by | definition; you have to _have_ in order to _give_, abstractly. | Whether the currency is in the form of self-esteem, wealth, | status, etc. | | One of the most important things I've learned as I've gotten | older. I just lived in my comfortable bubble growing up so of | course it was easy to be "nice". Of course I still believe we | should always maintain a civil standard, but I understand now | rudeness' usually sad origins so to speak (emotional pain from | abuse, life, whatever). | hosh wrote: | Though I've seen some amazing people who have very little | still being generous. | | And I have also seen crises wear down good people and turn | them into ungenerous wrecks of themselves. | | In the end, what I learned is that people are people, and I | really can't judge anything by the cover. I have no idea what | else is going on with someone, or their character and | capacity to meet great hardships. And even if they have | little capacity ... they are still people. | | How well that holds up in my own moments of crises? I can do | a lot better. | blooalien wrote: | I wish I could up-vote this comment more than once. | Swizec wrote: | We had an interesting experience with this recently. | | A butcher accidentally added an extra zero and charged us $640 | instead of $64 for our purchase. We realized a few days later | when I noticed our credit card spend looks strangely high for | the month. | | We're regulars so the next time we were there we said _" Hey it | looks like you overcharged us last week. Can you fix it? We got | x,y,z and it doesn't sound like that adds up to $640??"_ | | The butcher people were super apologetic, reviewed their | numbers, and refunded us. They specifically said _" Wow you're | so nice about this! Most people would be shouting and screaming | and going crazy"_ | | We're fortunate enough that a hiccup like that isn't a big | deal. Plenty of credit card balance to buffer the hiccup and if | worst comes to worst, we can issue a chargeback. And if even | that doesn't work, eh we'll be unhappy but fine. | rjh29 wrote: | If anything it makes me more sympathetic of those who do get | angry. If being nice to people is more a product of one's | privilege than one's nature, who am I to judge those who flip | out when they're counting down the days to their next | paycheck. | Swizec wrote: | Well it's a bit of both right? Stress makes it harder to be | nice, especially existential stress. But lack of stress | doesn't automatically make you a good person. You still | have to consciously decide to do the right/nice/polite | thing. | | There's a lot of not-well-off people who are super nice | because it's faster than being confrontational. And there's | plenty of entitled assholes who think being well-off means | they can shit on people. | vmception wrote: | I would have just chargebacked immediately when reviewing the | card statement | | Like an ongoing gameshow of Jeopardy: _bzzt_ wrong price | | And then maybe contacted them to do it again | | But I definitely wouldn't have been confrontational either, | I'm surprised people would bother being aggressive about it, | maybe if they used a debit card or were broke/illiquid | renewiltord wrote: | Seems a bit unnecessary. You could easily use the | opportunity to build a better relationship through | kindness. In an exclusively self-interest-maximizing sense, | doing this yields better long-term outcomes for a short | term cost of one-week float of some insignificant cash and | the discomfort of asking. | | You're entitled to it. It just seems irrational from a | self-interest-maximizing sense, and definitely irrational | to me who just feels pretty good about letting people undo | a perfectly undoable error. | aaaaaaaaata wrote: | You familiar with how shitty card companies make that for | vendors when you charge back? | | Not everyone would want to do that to their weekly butcher | shop. | aaronbrethorst wrote: | I don't think the butcher shop would agree to be their | weekly butcher shop anymore if they pulled that shit. | throwanem wrote: | I wouldn't. Granted, Steam or Amazon pulling an entire | account over one chargeback, as has been reported of | both, remains bullshit. But dragging a small shop into | that process without even trying to fix the problem with | a friendly conversation? That's a customer I'm probably | happy to fire. | vmception wrote: | I'm familiar, so dont fuck up | cpsns wrote: | The American way, god forbid you ever make a mistake. | JaimeThompson wrote: | >I'm familiar, so dont fuck up | | Don't. | dahfizz wrote: | I assume all software you've ever written has been bug | free? | sigkill wrote: | Good luck charging back a card-present transaction after a | week. | vecinu wrote: | I have successfully charged back a card-present | transaction after multiple months with US Bank. | sigkill wrote: | Was it a chargeback (i.e. a fraudulent transaction) or | services not rendered (i.e. faulty product etc.). | avgcorrection wrote: | This doesn't have much to do with altruism or empathy. In | your case: well-to-do people get more in return from managing | their reputation as upstanding folks than the they would get | from throwing a fit over something that they might only need | to get fixed within the month. In the case of poorer people: | they might have to pay rent today with that money, so their | manners might go out of the window somewhat due to stress | (getting mad because of someone else's mistake doesn't have | to do with lacking empathy or altruistic feeling). | Swizec wrote: | > their manners might go out of the window somewhat due to | stress | | Isn't this the whole premise of the article we're | commenting on? | pcmaffey wrote: | This is why ending poverty should be the number 1 priority of | our society. It puts *everyone* in a better situation to | collectively solve other problems. | pjmorris wrote: | I'm inclined to agree. Are you aware of the Poor People's | Campaign? https://www.poorpeoplescampaign.org/ | | My sense is that it'll take action on the part of people who | aren't activists to really shake things up, but the PPC seems | like a start. | alexpetralia wrote: | Stress erodes our buffer against external shocks. We can't | avoid all stresses in life, nor would we want to (some acutre | stress is great), but chronic stress can consume any additional | slack we have to deal responsibly with adverse events. | avgcorrection wrote: | Sounds like a good excuse to make a plan to get ahead first | before helping anyone. | | What's my five year plan? To ruthlessly beat my opposition so | that I will be in a better place to help the needy. Actually | scratch that--make it a fifteen year plan. | rjh29 wrote: | Seems like this could be a feedback cycle too. Be less kind to | people and they'll treat you badly in return. | nafix wrote: | Seems pretty straight-forward. Empathy requires energy and if | someone is under stress, they generally have less energy to worry | about others. | tomatowurst wrote: | I wonder if psychopathy/sociopathy/narcissism is the result of | pro-longed inter-generational stress and isolation. Someone | growing up say in a war zone and being exposed to violence | constantly from a young age would be adapt to shut down | empathy. | PragmaticPulp wrote: | This study uses cortisol measurements to obscure the fact that | one group was asked to do a stressful public speaking task first: | | > Human participants (males and females) completed a charitable | donation task before and after they underwent either a | psychosocial stressor or a control manipulation, while their | brain activity was measured using functional magnetic resonance | imaging (fMRI). | | Most of these "cortisol does X" studies are deeply flawed because | they try to pretend like cortisol is some independent variable, | when really it's an artifact of having asked the people to do | something stressful. | | In this case, the study is best interpreted as "Certain people | are less altruistic immediately after being forced to do a | stressful public speaking task". | [deleted] | [deleted] | CaptainNegative wrote: | Nothing in here indicates a causal cortisol->~altruism connection | was discovered, nor did they attempt at hinting towards causality | (e.g. via instrumental variable estimation). The described | findings appear entirely consistent with stressful situations | both increasing cortisol levels and decreasing altruism through | an unrelated mechanism. | | So I'm not sure I see the point of mentioning, let alone | highlighting, a specific hormone rather than the causal variable | they did study and discover, which is the stress itself. | Khelavaster wrote: | Very good point, too. No telling how relatively strong ly all | the other stress-adjacent hormones fit into the picture. | (adrenaline? Adrenocorticotropic hormone? Corticotropin | releasing factor? Proopiomelanocortin?) | dj_mc_merlin wrote: | Agreed.. giving a public speech must impact your brain in so | many more ways than raising cortisol, or? | xen2xen1 wrote: | And you can tell who crossed that bridge, never to come back. | Georgia and Tennessee, for instance. I think I crossed over that | one in 2019. | throwanem wrote: | I don't have time right now to find and read the paper and try to | evaluate the significance of the finding, but I hope someone else | does. | bigdict wrote: | I hope this is a reference to the title :) | throwanem wrote: | Not intentionally! I _am_ having a stressful day, but in this | case the etiology has more to do with the press of demands on | my time than with any direct effect of cortisol, I think. | agilo wrote: | The downvotes aren't helping either. True in life too, stress | can become a vicious cycle leading to disastrous outcomes. | That's why turning the other cheek, so to speak, sometimes can | help break that cycle. Have an upvote! | throwanem wrote: | I don't often notice downvotes by virtue of rarely spending | extended time on HN, and don't stress out over them when I do | notice them because, beyond expressing a nebulous and rarely | actionable sense of community disapproval and changing a | number on my profile, they don't provide any signal worth | getting excited about. But thanks just the same, I suppose! | Heston wrote: | You need a study to confirm you don't give away food when you're | starving? ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-04-26 23:00 UTC)