[HN Gopher] Ask HN: Do you find it challenging to talk to your u...
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Ask HN: Do you find it challenging to talk to your users?
One of the problems I faced when I had my first users on [just-
diary.com](http://just-diary.com) is that I didn't have any way to
talk to them. Like getting feedback on using the product, asking
them questions about what they want from it, and sharing some tips
on how to use some features. Does anyone have the same problem? If
yes, how did you solve it?
Author : atomiomi
Score : 41 points
Date : 2022-04-27 11:22 UTC (1 days ago)
| holler wrote:
| Have you considered simply putting a feedback button or link to a
| survey?
|
| It's interesting I have no problem communicating with all of my
| users because my project is a live chat app.
|
| But one thing I noticed is there are countless things people
| want, so much that it can become challenging to filter them down
| and choose which ones are valid or should have priority.
|
| Another issue is the conversations can be dispersed, so really it
| makes me think having a dedicated feedback button is still the
| best option even in my case.
| ubermonkey wrote:
| I don't, but it's probably because I've spent most of my career
| being the guy who did that part.
|
| I'm old (52), so while I did code initially in my career, I was
| tempted away ($$) into roles where the fact that I'm also good at
| written and spoken communication was part of the remit. Being
| able to communicate with users AND understand how software is
| actually written turns out to be a remunerative skill.
|
| Like coding, though, it's not something just everyone can do
| well. Also like coding, you have to WANT to do it. If you're
| pushed into a role like this and you don't like it or don't want
| to do it, everyone will suffer -- you, the users, and the rest of
| the dev team. It's a recipe for sadness.
| u2077 wrote:
| I don't have a problem at all. I have a link to a feedback form
| in the main menu. I was going to install a live chat widget until
| I realized just how horrible those things are.
|
| The best way to find out what a customer wants is to ask them.
|
| Edit: the form is only 3 fields long and email is optional if you
| want a response.
| scyzoryk_xyz wrote:
| From my experience working as a PM with a
| medical/educational/hardware/software product, I think everyone
| finds this process is extremely challenging.
|
| First surprising thing I learned is that users don't usually
| actually have the will to spend any amount of time giving
| feedback. But they will avoid admitting it. The second
| discouraging thing is that when you do get them to sit down and
| talk, you will find that they're really good at subverting and
| evading any sort of plan you might have had. And then finally,
| after you have managed to collect information, it can be
| extremely difficult to interpret the results and come back with
| clear insightful ideas for changes and improvements in the
| product.
|
| To me, interviewing and talking to users is something between the
| role of an anthropologist and journalist. You sort of have to
| charm them enough for them to open up, but you also have to
| maintain scepticism about what they tell you. You have to be
| inquisitive. And on top of that you have to be able to set aside
| your own interpretations and thoughts so as not to tip the
| scales. It can be emotionally draining, especially when you have
| your own convictions.
|
| I work with engineers and they hate talking to users. The process
| can be very vague and often feels fruitless to them. Engineers
| can be stubborn and hold on to their worldview because they
| strongly believe theirs is objective and there should only be
| right and wrong answers.
|
| I don't know what it's like at a smaller or larger scale. I can
| imagine some things are easier, and some are harder. A large
| company may have real resources to spend on finding the answers
| which can bring more people to the table. A single-person
| operation might not have those resources but could be sympathetic
| enough to bring individuals to the table based on sympathy.
|
| However, when you make discoveries and insights, those are things
| that can make or break your entire product. It's almost like
| panning for gold or fishing, you spend a lot of time searching
| and in doubt, and then you come across that one idea that really
| makes it all work. Anyways those are my thoughts. It's incredibly
| satisfying and I love it but I hate it.
| shalmanese wrote:
| People really don't have any passion for talking about your
| solution because they don't really care about you and you
| should take any discussion of solutions with a large grain of
| salt because customers are not PMs.
|
| But people are passionate about talking about their problems
| and that's where you should orient your discussions on. Don't
| ask about your product at all during PM interviews, simply try
| to understand the problems users are facing and figure out what
| ways your product is or is not addressing those problems.
|
| The biggest mistake I see PMs make is coming in with an over
| optimism bias and assuming that your product must be top of
| mind for all users when the reality is that the most often
| scenario you discover from user interviews is that the problem
| you're trying to solve is of relatively minor importance to
| most people.
| scyzoryk_xyz wrote:
| Harsh but very true.
| matt_the_bass wrote:
| Yeah they'd buy magic wands if they solved their problem.
| They don't care about your solution. They care about their
| solution.
| germinalphrase wrote:
| This sounds remarkably like my job as a high school teacher.
| Depending on what else it entails, I bet I would enjoy a
| similar role. Thanks for the thoughts.
| kareemm wrote:
| Back in 2015 I noticed SaaS companies asking for in-app feedback
| and started compiling screenshots. Here are 51 examples from
| companies like Shopify, YNAB, Customer.io, Stackshare, Mailgun,
| and more compiled over the past 7 years:
|
| https://www.savio.io/blog/how-saas-companies-get-in-app-prod...
|
| At my co we ask for feedback:
|
| 0. When someone books a demo (email)
|
| 1. When a user signs up (in-app and via email)
|
| 2. When a user converts from trial to paid (email)
|
| 3. When a user cancels (email)
|
| We also:
|
| 1. Use Intercom and lots of feedback comes in there
|
| 2. Have several in-app callouts to vote on features on our voting
| board or contact support
|
| 3. Close the loop with customers when we ship a feature they
| asked for, and ask for feedback
|
| We could definitely do a better job on the in-app feedback
| collection side.
| Techonomicon wrote:
| Assuming they sign up for an account. Email them, and ask. There
| are tons of products out there to allegedly help with this within
| your site: i.e feedback popups, chat popups, etc. But the easy
| way is simply to email them!
| ilaksh wrote:
| I have a link to the Discord server on the web page and I always
| have that open. Once every week or two someone will ask me
| something, usually really basic, about how to use the system.
| Mostly it seems like they want to make sure there is support for
| the product. So the questions are usually easy to answer.
|
| People do also occasionally message me with feature requests or
| put them in the public room.
|
| I will say though that the times I have directly asked groups of
| users what product or feature to build, I have mostly received
| crickets. Before I built the main product I practically begged a
| couple of Discord communities to tell me what they needed/wanted.
| It took awhile and I got a single response. I built that and then
| had everyone else in the community tell me how badly they had
| needed it.
|
| I don't know what it is really but it can be like extracting
| teeth. But the sort of leaders may eventually give feedback.
| jitl wrote:
| Did you try emailing them? Look up your most active users and
| send a personal email or reach out to them on Twitter.
|
| Especially when you're B2C, small, and your users are small,
| build that personal relationship. Find your most passionate
| users, figure out where they hang out (Reddit? Twitter? Facebook?
| Discord) and try to start a community there.
|
| This serves two purposes:
|
| - Your passionate users will want to talk to you! They will have
| a particular power-user perspective, but much better than no
| feedback.
|
| - Build an effective community that is excited about your product
| is fantastic for marketing.
| cl42 wrote:
| I need to give you my email address to sign up. Can't you email
| me and ask me to hop on a call, fill out a survey, etc.?
|
| Also, if no one replies to your request, that's a data point as
| well.
| simonw wrote:
| I've been running office hours sessions on Fridays for this. I've
| been running them for over a year now and they have been
| incredibly useful.
|
| I have a Calendly which people can book a 20 minute conversation
| with me about my project.
|
| I've had at least 60 high value conversations now, with people
| all over the world.
|
| I don't promote them heavily at the moment so I sometimes get
| just 0-2 a week, but in the past I've had days with 3 or 4.
|
| I wrote about this pattern here:
| https://simonwillison.net/2021/Feb/19/office-hours/
| jrvarela56 wrote:
| The pattern I have seen (which imo is not annoying) is that the
| welcome email comes from the 'CEO's address and you can reply or
| book a call.
|
| Most people will delete it. But I don't find it dishonest because
| it's literally an offer to help and you can ask anything you like
| (I have always gotten replies as a consumer).
|
| I'm assuming once this doesn't scale you can just do the same
| with support agents (no fake here, just put their names and
| emails) so the inbound is handled by different people with the
| same goal in mind.
| mikhaill wrote:
| This is exactly what I do at my SaaS platform. The "Welcome"
| email explains that you can do the click-here-and-do-yourself
| approach to onboarding or if you need help or have a question,
| just reply to the email. I think that's the lowest friction
| option for most new users. Over the few years that I had this
| in the welcome email, very few people took advantage of the
| offer and replied.
| muunbo wrote:
| I teach coding tutorials on my website and have a few
| subscribers. I occasionally send out a mass email asking them
| what they'd like to learn. Sometimes I send a tiny survey instead
| of asking such an open ended question. Every time I've received
| at least a couple of responses.
| alin23 wrote:
| I happily use formspark.io for both Lunar
| (https://lunar.fyi/contact), The Low-tech Guys
| (https://lowtechguys.com/contact) and my personal website
| (https://alinpanaitiu.com/contact). A contact form that's
| customizable with simple HTML inputs, gets redirected to your
| email, and you can just reply to that email to begin a discussion
| with that user. I've had great success with it, users know how to
| use it, they're happy when they get a prompt response and they
| like the privacy (as opposed to having to create a public post on
| forums/Github/Discord).
|
| You also get free bot protection with botpoison or the usual
| captcha. There are some false positives as usual, which is why I
| also have a Discord server running for the apps. But Formspark
| goes 99% of the way and it's incredibly cheap with a free option.
|
| EDIT:
|
| I see you're mostly looking for a way to reach your users instead
| of letting the users reach you. I feel that's not something most
| users want. I almost never like when I get an unsolicited email
| after I start using an app, and unsubscribe instantly.
|
| It's better to provide good documentation (maybe a simple
| organized markdown page to start with), and one as clear as
| possible first page.
|
| People will reach you when they need more info and you can update
| the website and documentation based on the feedback to minimize
| the repetitive interactions.
| meristem wrote:
| You need to make it absurdly easy and in-flow. Otherwise you are
| stuck sending emails to users asking for feedback, and the return
| on those in my experience is below 4%.
|
| If what you want is to have a lengthier conversation please
| remember time is money--remunerate the user for their time
| helping you.
| phat_gopher wrote:
| People are suggesting emailing users that have signed up which
| would be the best way imo. I also suggest creating a twitter
| account for your site if you dont already have one. If someone
| tweets feedback, questions, etc, you can direct message them
| there as well.
| groffee wrote:
| Be careful what you wish for. I've had the 'second coming of
| Jesus' email me, and an ungodly amount of abuse, also a lot of
| people who I think don't even know what a computer is, and lonely
| people who just want to talk.
|
| Talking with your customers lets you build relationships and
| brand loyalty which is valuable, but I'm also not sure if that
| outweighs the downsides.
|
| But for your situation just create a survey with Google forms or
| something and send it out to everyone. If you don't have many
| customers yet take the time to personalise each one.
|
| Since your product is a journal, maybe have a public
| forum/journal to build a community with as well?
| superasn wrote:
| This is so true. I too love to talk to users via smartsupp from
| time to time but just last time I was discussing meditation in
| Himalayas with a user after he asked where I was from.
|
| He was super a cool customer and really helped me improve the
| product too but you need to have a lot of patience and
| genuinely love talking to them with a mutual interest in them
| and then you can interview them to your hearts content. Also
| don't expect to get any dev done while you're doing this :)
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| Some wisdom in this reply.
|
| When I read the OP question I took "difficult to talk with
| users" as being about the content of discussion/feedback not
| the mechanisms for soliciting it, so I'll stick with that
| take....
|
| I'd say, you need to know what you want.
|
| You will definitely get extremes. I deal with feedback as a
| teacher, developer, author or musician, and many of the same
| things apply. Some will be straight, some over-nice, some funny
| and teasing, some will be rude and angry. But what you want is
| _useful_ responses, regardless of emotional sentiment and how
| it 's packaged.
|
| How do you filter for that? Like the guidelines of HN it's good
| to take the most sincere interpretation possible and look for
| attempts to communicate nuggets of _useful_ critique. Someone
| who knocks your work down can be great, not even because they
| 're right, but because they do so in a _useful_ way, maybe by
| making you think about something.
|
| It's good to have a framework for identifying and interpreting
| things you're looking for. When I post on HN, because I am
| researching for a book, I have a kinda X-Keyscore selector set
| in mind - I'm looking for ethical/moral signals, nuggets that
| reveal underlying attitudes of hackers. But that could apply to
| any product or project and a set of information you're
| interested in seeking.
|
| A research method that can help you with this is thematic
| analysis and sentiment analysis. You "code" responses and score
| them as to how much they tell you about pre-selected areas
| you;re trying to improve... installation, usability, cost,
| configuration, interoperability.... and so on. Then, if you're
| going to respond, get back to those users on those specific
| points for clarification.
| b20000 wrote:
| this. i also have had all of the above. once you talk to them
| and you are the developer of the software, be prepared for
| those users who will demand more features, that you fix bugs by
| tomorrow, that you do what they want, etc. i have had so much
| personal attacks and abuse i've stepped back and started
| bringing in other collaborators while i remain behind the
| scenes working on the software.
| Humdeee wrote:
| Can't really speak for desktop or web, but I have a series of
| mobile apps that I have a 'contact' button that pops up the email
| client with some prefilled data and lets them fill anything in. I
| find if people are enthusiasts, they'll reach out to share. It's
| a mixed bag of emails. I get maybe 20-25 emails a month of
| suggestions, appreciation, and mostly questions on the content.
| It contains an in-app purchase for almost $50 and if the user
| simply asks, I'll give the unlock for free (and ask for an honest
| posted review, well worth it imo). Past a certain point, I don't
| really care about the money, just to make it better without being
| confusing. They do quite well without marketing or ads anyway.
|
| I used to deal with and include all the tracking, analytics,
| logs, etc., but it's all just bloatware for me since it's
| relatively small apps. I don't require login or accounts and
| don't want to spam and make everything voluntary in the end, and
| not force it. It will take time, and the focus is on being as
| non-predatory as possible. I keep things slim and simple and
| people seem to like that. Making sure a user has a good
| experience with software that I write is always #1. All of these
| points collectively I feel is inviting for people to socialize
| their thoughts to me.
| PaulDavisThe1st wrote:
| I'm on IRC and and the project's own Discourse forums, plus two
| independent different Discord servers, at all times. There's also
| the bugtracker, currently with about 2700 open bug reports. Not
| really a problem, but this is all after 22 years, so probably not
| equivalent to a "when I had my first users" situation.
|
| This is, by the way, why I prefer having other developers as my
| first users.
| johnthescott wrote:
| no. communication is part of the path we call life.
| gamerDude wrote:
| I have more of an enterprise product working with school
| districts. It did take some time to get meetings with users, but
| I did get them. In my case it was similar to any enterprise
| endeavor. I had a champion to make introductions to the different
| users and then asked those users to introduce me to another user
| group, etc.
|
| And I am doing that in a variety of school systems to get
| feedback.
|
| I do find getting 30-60 minutes with a user or group of users
| extremely valuable. You've really got to try and dig into their
| use case and understand them. And tell them to stop telling you
| what they think other people might do and get them to focus on
| themselves. Everyone likes to tell me what other users might
| want, and then asking them, well, do you do this? "Nope, but
| other people might..."
|
| But once you get through that, the rewards are fantastic. You can
| build some frameworks around your users and have a much better
| intuition of who would like what and how they would use it. Then
| reach back out and ask.
|
| One other method I use is an ask for features button on the app.
| Once they ask for a feature, I ask if they are open to connecting
| over zoom so I can deeply understand their use case. And
| sometimes they get their feature built, and sometimes they get
| something much better.
| techsin101 wrote:
| yes, cause I have no users
| kevmo314 wrote:
| No, we run a Discord and I am a user so I talk to them and get
| feedback like I would with friends and they are pretty open about
| bug reports, feature requests, etc. :)
| ryanSrich wrote:
| Getting feedback is tough. It's why bigger companies will even
| pay you to give them feedback.
|
| My method has always been to be offer a few companies/users a
| free account. Assuming your product is something they really
| need, a free account in exchange for feedback is a win win for
| both sides.
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