[HN Gopher] 'Biodegradable' drinking straws contain PFAS ___________________________________________________________________ 'Biodegradable' drinking straws contain PFAS Author : hammock Score : 103 points Date : 2022-05-02 21:39 UTC (1 hours ago) (HTM) web link (cen.acs.org) (TXT) w3m dump (cen.acs.org) | decremental wrote: | Great. Ordered some lunch from a kind of hippie dippie place | today and they gave me one of those straws. Oh well, part of a | balanced microplastics diet I guess. I'm sure my years of | drinking bottled water has been far worse for me. | dynamohk wrote: | You can buy stainless steel straws. Reusable too. | verisimi wrote: | Its worth it - turtles can snort PFAS paper straws, no problem :) | peanut_worm wrote: | What would be the effects of a blanket ban on single-use plastic | food packaging | hammock wrote: | From the article: | | _> University of Florida toxicologist John Bowden was fascinated | by the durability of today's paper straws compared with older | ones that would break down quickly in a drink, and he wanted to | know whether the new straws' water resistance might come from | PFAS. | | >An analysis detected PFAS "forever chemicals" in 36 out of 38 | brands of plant-based straws tested._ | armchairhacker wrote: | I got a metal straw which is nice. | | The main downside is you have to rinse it, and it comes with a | brush to clean which I sometimes use. However I haven't ever | actually noticed it getting dirty. I drink water / tea flavored | with stevia so it might not be as clean if you drink something | else. | lucb1e wrote: | We have plastic ones and I prefer the texture of those to | metal. Reusable I mean obviously, not throwaway. Had them for | years, we use them maybe three times a month (mainly after | getting takeaway and requesting the drink without those awful | paper straws) so probably that contributes to longevity. I | haven't noticed it getting dirty either but we just run it | through the dishwasher like other cutlery. | | Takeaway: plastic isn't bad, just don't waste it, like every | other resource from planet A... | crackercrews wrote: | Other cutlery only needs washing on the outside. How do you | ensure the straw is also cleaned on the inside? | kube-system wrote: | Those metal straws scare me. Every time I see one, I imagine | tripping or bumping into something with one in my mouth | crackercrews wrote: | Accidents are not common. But they're not impossible either. | [1] | | 1: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/woman-dies-after- | accidentally... | ulber wrote: | They definitely need a brushing after smoothies, but apart from | that I'm not the most worried about bacterial growth inside | them. They're not used for cooking, so as long as there isn't | significant biomass inside there it doesn't feel too dangerous | - bacteria multiplying in food and manufacturing toxins is the | thing I'm really careful about. I imagine people routinely get | similar exposure to bacteria from many other sources they don't | even think about. | ecmascript wrote: | I have tried to convince people to not purchase stuff that has | non-stick properties and / or water resistance in clothes etc. | | Unfortunately, people close to me don't care and now this. I have | also wondered why the new straws are so much better than the old | paper ones. This makes me so incredibly sad since I really try to | avoid to purchase stuff with these kinds of chemicals in them | among others. | | Just like one hour ago I was stopping at a fast food restaurant | and ate, they had these kinds of straws which I imagine contains | PFAS. | | Fuck. Even if you really try it seems you can't avoid it. | version_five wrote: | Populism doesn't work. People like to hear easy answers that | making some first order change couldn't possibly affect anything | else, and end up supporting leaders that promise these poorly | thought out changes. It's true for all political stripes. This | article is as good an example as any, if a minor one. People need | to be more critical of simple "mandates" that they think will fix | anything. | mdp2021 wrote: | > _Populism doesn 't work_ | | By definition, if the way to recognize it is that it sells | "silver bullets" (pseudosolutions). | [deleted] | joshuamoes wrote: | seems to good to be true... But really I worry where else these | will appear if we start looking. | ajsnigrutin wrote: | Why is the world so obsesed with plastic straws? Are those really | the most polluting item right now? Why do we not focus rather on | plastic bottles for eg. soft drinks, which are the only option in | many markets? Or useless double and triple packaging? Even the | term "carbon footprint" is used to shift focus from "big oil" to | "average joe" [0]... how many years of plastic straws is | equivalent to eg. deepwater horizon oil spil? | | [0] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/aug/23/big- | oi... | version_five wrote: | What is the value of projecting our collective oil dependence | onto the companies that provide it? Pretending it's somehow oil | companies fault while not making any personal changes is | delusional. | | I think focusing on straws is stupid, but so is pretending that | but for oil companies we'd have no problems | ceejayoz wrote: | Sub out "oil" for "tobacco" in your comment for a moment. | ajsnigrutin wrote: | Our personal choice is to use fuel, because we need energy, | BPs personal (well, corporate) incompetence was at fault for | the totally useless (nothing good, no heat, no transport, no | plastics, just damage to our environment) oil spill in 2010. | | So, we, a collective of millions and billions of people are | being put on pedestal for using straws (if we do, many of us | don't), while one incompetent company (people there) offsets | the efforts of literally millions of people. | version_five wrote: | I'm not trying to excuse oil spills, but I think it's | dodging responsibility to base our whole lives around | drilling a dirty fuel out of the ground and then blame only | the company when these happen. Using oil entails some risk | that it's going to contaminate the environment, and we are | collectively responsible. | soheil wrote: | ESG browny points is probably a key component of that. It's | dangerous to let politicians decide what is considered green. | There has to be a quantifiably measurable way the impact on the | environment from any single product is judged. If there isn't a | clear way to do so then we should refrain from blanket banning | a product. | zukzuk wrote: | Because they are so utterly pointless. Plastic straws are a | symbol of an almost entirely unnecessary use of plastic. | | And that symbolism -- as seems to be the case with just about | anything with any semblance of symbolic value nowadays -- has | become politicized and polarized, which in turn has further | elevated straws' symbolic value for both sides (there's a | "straw man argument" pun here somewhere). | | The right is obsessed with how the left is trying to control | even the most trivial aspects of everyone's lives, and the left | is obsessed with how the right would rather selfishly spew | plastic into the environment than to give up even the most | trivial conveniences. | | This feels like a tension that can exist only in the | Twitterverse. I really can't imagine pre-internet society | actually having strong opinions about any of this. | ajsnigrutin wrote: | So is double packaging (eg plastic bottles wrapped in plastic | to form a "sixpack", on a pallet, wrapped in more plastic, so | plastic within a plastic within a plastic, prepackaged | bananas, double packed cosmetics, toothpaste in plastic | covered cardboard boxes, etc.), and it contributes a lot more | (by weight of trash) than straws. | | But we have basically zero impact on the first, and drinks in | a plastic bottle are sometimes literally the only choice, and | no politician dares mention cocacola and walmart, but we all | get blamed for straws that we maybe use twice a year... in | mcdonalds. | burlesona wrote: | Virtue signaling only works if people can see you do it. So if | you're a restaurant, how many noticeable things can you do to | demonstrate you care about the environment without actually | changing your business model, profits, or unit economics? | josh_today wrote: | chmod600 wrote: | Wouldn't a light coating of oil or wax be enough to keep the | straw intact for an hour while sipping a beverage? | ricardobeat wrote: | Even these new, who-knows-what additive laced straws start | falling apart after 5-10 minutes. | robbiep wrote: | You do realise this article is in fact describing exactly | what that who-knows-what is, right? | the_jeremy wrote: | I don't believe it was an exhaustive list of ingredients, | only one set of concerning ingredients common to most. | chmod600 wrote: | But why? What is the engineering challenge in a cheap tube | that needs to survive modest collapsing pressure and contact | with cold water for an hour? | | Maybe wax-coated paper, or a thin foil coating on paper, or | some other kind of plant matter pounded into the right shape, | or something. | version_five wrote: | There is no challenge, we've invented plastic straws. The | challenge is to use something that the people who are | worked up about straws do not identify as plastic. | | Wax is a hydrocarbon that I believe comes from oil. I don't | know how it breaks down on the environment but it's not | immediately clear it's actually "better" than plastic, | other than maybe not being seen once it falls apart. | ars wrote: | Wax defeats the entire purpose of making a paper straw. Oil | would not stay in the paper. | | Just use plastic, it's better for the environment anyway. | chmod600 wrote: | Why does wax defeat the purpose of a paper straw? Aren't | there some biodegradable waxes? | ars wrote: | Why are you using a paper straw in the first place? It's so | it vanishes if you litter it - a wax covered straw is not | going to do that. | | It will eventually biodegrade, but it's going to take a | long time. | | If you are worried about straws getting stuck in animals, a | wax covered one will also get stuck. | | The entire straw ban is the height of stupidity. Just start | a "don't litter, throw it away" campaign and you'll solve | 95% of the problem, without creating new ones. | coffeeblack wrote: | My favorite part is when the paper straws come individually | wrapped in plastic. | ectopod wrote: | They used to be waxed back in the day. They worked, but if you | were careless they would collapse. I think it's a reasonable | trade off, but many people hated them. | jjtheblunt wrote: | i think that's implied in the article, where the researcher | wonders why the new straws last longer than what i think you're | asking. | burlesona wrote: | So, what I don't understand is chemists and industrial engineers. | There are highly educated humans somewhere who sat around and | said, "you know what would sell well right now is straws that | looked like paper but were actually durable in water," and one of | them said "oh just coat that stuff in PFAS, it'll work!" | | Not only that but the product then got all the way through all | the other humans required to reach industrial scale manufacture | and distribution. | | So a large number of people decided that it was worth exposing | other humans to known toxic chemicals[1] to sell a product. | | Do the people involved just not care as long as they get paid? Do | they not believe that chemicals do any harm? Do they think the | harm is so tiny that it doesn't matter, and the people who are | concerned are idiots? I genuinely don't understand it. | | 1: https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/pfas/health-effects/index.html | the_jeremy wrote: | If these chemicals aren't banned in the US, then people are | going to use that as evidence that they're not harmful at the | amounts you'd get from using a straw. I'd point more to the | government if we're trying to assign blame. | Scaevolus wrote: | PFAS are ubiquitous in paper food containers too. One weird | trick to make paper waterproof: coat it in fluoridated | chemicals! | | https://toxicfreefuture.org/new-study-finds-pfas-chemicals-i... | soheil wrote: | How many times do we need to learn that absence of evidence is | not evidence of absence? Anything new that we consume or use as a | tool to consume food with should be regarded as highly safe. | Skeptical empiricism is the best way to achieve that. | robotnikman wrote: | It seems nearly impossible to avoid these harmful chemicals | nowadays, they are everywhere. It's very depressing... | Jupe wrote: | Just thinking: Is it possible the (probably fast-growth trees) | used in the production of these straws are the actual source of | the PFAS chemicals? I mean, they are "forever chemicals". | Reichhardt wrote: | Why do we insist on composting or burying so much trash? Let's | just burn plastic in the same high-temperature facilities common | across Scandinavia. Plastic and packaging use is still only 5% of | the oil going up in smoke in engines. | dataflow wrote: | How is incinerating supposed to be better than burying (not | composting)? | | Edit: Yes, I obviously understand there's an energy release, | but is finding yet another way to burn more oil and get carbon | into the atmosphere really what we need at this point in time? | ars wrote: | It's WAY WAY better! The plastic does not accumulate, and you | get to use the energy embodied in the plastic, instead of | pumping more oil out of the ground. | | It's one of those rare win/win things, with no downsides. Of | course people won't do it because you have to "recycle" it - | which is worse for the environment, but it's an emotional | thing, so don't expect people to listen to reason. | upwardbound wrote: | +1. Burying plastic (in a place where it's safe to do so) | would be a form of carbon sequestration so should be | considered a positive. | ThunderSizzle wrote: | Carbon sequestration isn't necessarily an end goal that is | necessarily worth extra effort, even if this comment made | sense beyond that. | Syonyk wrote: | Under what logic does "Remove oil from the ground, process | it into something, and then bury that something" count as | actual carbon sequestration? You've not removed anything | from the atmosphere in any plastic cycle I'm aware of, and | you've used an awful lot of energy in the process of going | from "ground" to "ground." You'd have been better off, in | every possible way, just leaving that oil in the ground in | the first place. | | Except for the important way, which is corporate profits. | upwardbound wrote: | I agree but the same logic applies to "remove oil from | the ground, burn it, capture the carbon from the smoke | using expensive equipment, then bury the smoke" which | describes all major carbon sequestration plans if I | understand correctly. | | I think that both forms of sequestration (sequestering | gaseous CO2 (or a solid-stabilized form of it) vs | sequestering plastic) are worse than not drilling the oil | to begin with, but better than letting the CO2 end up in | the air. | Syonyk wrote: | Climeworks is doing some work with atmospheric capture | and sequestration in basalt via underground water | injection (I believe they site with hydroelectric plants | which gives them the reinjection well infrastructure | mostly for free). | | You can do the same thing by grinding basalt and | spreading it on fields, which... given that I live on a | pile of basalt, might be useful eventually. I keep | collecting the stuff to make a greenhouse with, though. | | It may be better than leaving it in the air, but given | all the other biological activity of plastic, I'd really | rather we not use the stuff in the first place at this | point. | titzer wrote: | For one, you can generate electricity. It does produce CO2, | however, whereas burying sequesters the carbon. | coffeeblack wrote: | You get energy out of it instead of wasting that energy. | Syonyk wrote: | First, there's a lot of energy in the chemical bonds, so | depending on how you're incinerating it, you can get some | useful energy out of it. The Hefty Energy Bag program does | this - they did a lifecycle analysis on various plastic "end | of life" paths from "landfill" to "advanced plastic thermal | decomposition" to "burn it in a cement kiln" - with the last | one working by far, the best. At last per their analysis. If | you're offsetting coal use, which is what would otherwise be | burned in the cement kiln (I believe natural gas and hydrogen | don't emit enough radiation because of their lack of carbons | to be as useful), great. | | Second, done properly (insert a lot of observations about | combustion temperature here), it ends up as nothing worse | than CO2, nitrogen, water, etc at the exhaust stack. Given | how horribly bioreactive plastics tend to be, and their | tendency to erode into microplastics given half an | opportunity, this is roughly the "Flare the methane to CO2 | because it's far less bad" end of plastic compared to burying | it, which, at _some_ point in the future, stands good odds of | being uncovered - perhaps by a group that doesn 't understand | just how nasty the stuff really is. | | If your takeaway is "There don't sound like any great ways to | deal with plastic," good. Because there aren't. | throwaway09223 wrote: | It prevents the plastics from entering the environment. | | Plastics are a material with no effective bio-degredation | process so we should destroy it rather than return it to the | environment. Otherwise we're just delaying cleanup. | | Incineration destroys these unnatural carbon chains and | returns the materials to a state usable by natural life. | ars wrote: | People are obsessed with "recycling" plastic, instead of doing | the right thing and burning it for energy. It's some kind of | emotional "I'm not wasting it" thing. | micromacrofoot wrote: | scientists recently found microplastics in rain and human | blood... so let's not burn them unless the exhaust is heavily | filtered ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-05-02 23:01 UTC)