[HN Gopher] When I made another Monkey Island ___________________________________________________________________ When I made another Monkey Island Author : sabas_ge Score : 418 points Date : 2022-05-03 10:07 UTC (12 hours ago) (HTM) web link (grumpygamer.com) (TXT) w3m dump (grumpygamer.com) | adamrezich wrote: | > Roger Ebert had a great quote that I am constantly reminding | myself of: | | > "The muse visits during the act of creation, not before." | | I'd never heard this before but this is an amazing quote. | darkerside wrote: | Super nostalgic. Where can I play the original and perhaps more | importantly, the first sequel, which I never actually played? | jaimebuelta wrote: | They are available quite cheaply on gog.com | | https://www.gog.com/en/games?query=monkey%20island&developer... | | They are very good! Obviously the style is out of fashion and | some puzzles can be a bit frustrating (though not as much as | old Sierra adventures), but they are amazing games... | Svip wrote: | These are the special editions with updated graphics and | voice acting. Although you can always switch back to the | original style at any time. | Sharlin wrote: | Honestly, I have the special edition and after about ten | minutes of playing I switched to the original graphics and | music and didn't really look back. They really have aged | quite well, even though of course they look much blockier | on a 24" TFT compared to the original 15"ish CRT | experience... | RajT88 wrote: | Same. I find the minimal graphics and animation leave | more to your imagination. | | Similarly, I prefer my non-talkie adventure games. YMMV. | k3vinw wrote: | I bought the special editions of 1 and 2 over the weekend | with the sole intent of extracting the original game | files and playing them via scummvm. Didn't even try to | play the special editions. And getting them working in | scummvm was as much fun as getting to play the original | games themselves! | rob74 wrote: | I felt the "updated" graphics were quite good too, | although it showed in some places that the budget wasn't | as big as for the original game... | ricardo81 wrote: | Reminded me of the whole 14"/15" options for cant-even- | remember which system. Vaguely recall a 17" choice too. | technovader wrote: | worth mentioning the music is. ot great in the remastered | editions | | they give you 2 options and neither of them are the | incredible adlib version of the original | vanderZwan wrote: | Which is kinda strange because the "pixel" art of those | days was never intended to be rendered as blocky pixels, | but designed to make use of the CRT's softness. | fps_doug wrote: | I mean, it was still clearly low-res. CRTs and smaller | screen sized helped, but you could still see the pixels. | mromanuk wrote: | Indeed, you could see the pixels, but that was all it | was. Advanced games used antialiasing to lessen the | blocky effect. You only could dream of a future where | graphics are "paper like" without pixels. At that moment, | it didn't fill like low-res, at all. 320x200 256 colors | was the bleeding edge of computer graphics. Later on, | some games started appearing with 640x480. | qw wrote: | That's also why I can't stand some of the modern pixel- | games. They are too blocky and doesn't work well on | modern screens. Using blocky graphics is not "retro" at | all. It's more an artistic impression of how they _think_ | old games looked like. | mrob wrote: | Arguably true for the EGA versions (when played on real | EGA hardware), but the VGA versions used a 320x200 | resolution, which was line-doubled to 320x400, and | displayed on monitors sharp enough to be usable at | 640x480. The pixels were obviously blocky. | tom_ wrote: | The pixels were very obvious at 320x200 on most late 80s | CRTs with RGB input! (Standard for PC, very common on | Amiga and ST.) | SamBam wrote: | Can you switch back to the original UI (without the verbs | menu) as well? | WorldMaker wrote: | The Verbs menu taking a third of the screen _is_ the | original SCUMM UI. The "verb coin" idea didn't come | along until Full Throttle/Curse of Monkey Island years | after Secret of Monkey Island and LeChuck's Revenge. | | The only tiny "original UI" subtlety in play with Secret | of Monkey Island was that the floppy version used a text | inventory menu and the CD version added the inventory | icons. I can't say I've met anyone that prefers the text | inventory over the icons. | hadjian wrote: | Maybe here: | | https://archive.org/details/mnkyega | rjh29 wrote: | The second game is really good. I think it's a lot funnier than | the first and has more colourful areas and dialogue (although | some puzzles are ridiculous). | foldr wrote: | I also see Monkey 2 as by far the superior game. The first is | excellent and charming, but the second is a great work of | literature. (I played Monkey 2 first though, so I'm | inherently biased.) | rob74 wrote: | Well, I played the first one first, and I liked that one | better. Especially once you get to Monkey Island, it's one | gag after the other: the three-headed monkey, the head of | the navigator (which you trade in for a leaflet called "how | to get ahead in navigating"), ShishKeBob and his pals | ShishKeJoe and ShishKeLarry, ... | k__ wrote: | I played the LeChuck's Revenge first and later tried the first | one. It didn't have quite the impact. | | Also, I replayed the games like 10 years ago and found them | very short and the humor being quite outdated. A bit like | watching all the Star Wars movies in one go. The pacing in the | first triology is pretty crappy. | nottorp wrote: | > The pacing in the first triology is pretty crappy. | | At least the first trilogy had some pacing. | tluyben2 wrote: | You should really play them both; I have the remastered | versions on steam and enjoy playing the hell out of them. I | often switch backward and forward from new to original graphics | and music for nostalgia reasons though. | lawgimenez wrote: | The Curse of Monkey Island is my favorite game, I am honored to | read this post and blog. Thanks HN! | | I still remember the part of the game where Guybrush was stuck in | a quicksand, I remember it took me days to figure the solution | out. | fouadf wrote: | It's my favorite game too, this game takes me back to wonderful | childhood memories. Ironically that puzzle was the one of the | easiest for me to solve | lawgimenez wrote: | Awesome then! I could not remember that single thing I forgot | to collect for that puzzle, maybe it was the gum? I dunno but | I enjoyed it a lot. Fun memories. | sn0wtrooper wrote: | You only needed the Helium Ballon, which you had in the | inventory since the beggining of the game | lawgimenez wrote: | It's cool and amazing that you still remember this. I | mean last time I played this game was over 20 years ago | ha! Ah yes the Helium balloon and this is the also the | part Guybrush needs to shoot the dart right? | WorldMaker wrote: | Papapeeshoo | nomoreusernames wrote: | old 2d scumm is my favorite engine. with all its weird stuff | going on, the amount of imagination it has unleashed is next to | magical. its like the amiga500 or c64. there is something about | being limited as a creative person which sparks imagination. | certain "things" do it better or worse. scumm should be seen as | an instrument, not a tool. | JohnFen wrote: | An old art teacher of mine once said "art is creativity | expressed under constraints". | stuckinhell wrote: | I just played thimbleweed park, and yikes what a horrible ending. | | I'm very worried about Monkey Island now. Some authors NEED | editors. I think Ron Gilbert needs the original team to help him | on what works and what doesn't. | | Even the original Chrono Trigger was going to be super | depressing, if the original writer had his way on everything. I | would have hated his version of it. | WorldMaker wrote: | This is partly why I think Dave Grossman's deep involvement is | so important to Return to Monkey Island. Ron seems best with a | larger writers room and Dave by all accounts is one of the best | influences he can have that is also a Known Quantity from the | rest of the franchise. | pcthrowaway wrote: | I haven't heard this (and Chrono Trigger is my favorite game). | What was the original ending supposed to be? "...but the future | refused to change"? | stuckinhell wrote: | http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Supporting_Material_Tra. | .. | | https://www.pressthebuttons.com/2014/10/lost-chrono- | trigger-... | legitster wrote: | This worries me a bit too. | | I have a lot of fondness for Monkey Island, but more often than | not - giving a creative person complete creative controls is | less likely to produce something good. | riffraff wrote: | Thimbleweed Park was imvho a "meh" game. I hope the new monkey | island can improve on that. | | OTOH I am now playing "The Captain" which is a modern take on | point&click with beautiful pixel art and a few new things, and | I feel it filled my need for a good monkey island already. | fancyPantsZero wrote: | When he talks about pushing the art forward, I wonder if he is | also talking about the art of game design. Is he going to show us | a futuristic vision of the classic point & click gameplay, or is | this part still stuck in the past? | pizzabearman wrote: | I feel like monkey island one and two was basically a very | advanced "book" with basic animated illustrations. But you could | still fill in a lot with your own imagination with the graphics | of that time. Skip forward to any of todays games and they are | way way closer to a movie then a book. Just like when any book is | made into a movie there is a lot of hardcore fans that have a | different mental model of their book and don't want it | overshadowed by a movie. It is easy to avoid and not watch the | "movie". I will be very happy to see a new game by Ron based on | what he feels is his vision and not what the public wants. | Simon_O_Rourke wrote: | I love his Day of the Tentacle critique, it's basically what my | grandma would say if she reviewed games.... "I'm sure what you've | created might be good, but it's not my cup of tea at all... In | fact..." | rob74 wrote: | Your grandma is a wise person - but of course it's the only way | to critique a game made by people that you respect and that you | worked with for a long time... | benniomars wrote: | I love the Chuck Jones style in that game. I play through it at | least 5-6 times a year. But I also just like Chuck Jones's | stuff in general. | fernandotakai wrote: | it was my first real adventure game (i couldn't even progress | through it because i didn't speak a single word of english -- | it was trial and error until i understood what "open", | "push", "pull", "pick up" were) so i absolutely LOVE the art | style. | | but i totally get what ron means -- art style is 100% | personal preference. | Andrew_nenakhov wrote: | I find it interesting that sequels in gaming are way easier than | in movie business: game designers don't have to deal that much | with stars ageing or dying, and voice actors are far easier to | replace than on-screen ones. Though with deepfake technology this | might be changing. | [deleted] | rightnow wrote: | I'd love the new design and i love the old games. I dont really | see the point of doing a new game with the old tech. Its better | to make a new game with new tech that brings it into 2022. | nottorp wrote: | > It's ironic that the people who don't want me to make the game | I want to make are some of the hard core Monkey Island fans. And | that is what makes me sad about all the comments. | | I don't know. I can probably still finish monkey 1 and 2 without | a walkthrough because I've played them many times. That makes me | a fan right? | | And I find the fake modern pixel art... boring. | capableweb wrote: | Not sure I misunderstand you or not, but you seem to have | missed the point of the article? | | Monkey 1&2 are not pixel art, it's "state of the art" graphics. | The new one will also not be pixel art, it'll try to move the | graphics forward. | | So if you think pixel art is boring, you should be happy with | what was outlined in this blog post? | nottorp wrote: | > So if you think pixel art is boring, you should be happy | with what was outlined in this blog post? | | I am. Read again. Including what I quoted from the original | article. | capableweb wrote: | Yeah, read it a couple of times now. Seems you're actually | agreeing with the author, while your comment reads like | your disagreeing, but again, probably just me | misunderstanding your comment. | | All is good, I probably just need a break from the computer | :) | the_af wrote: | > I don't know. | | You probably _do_ know. If you 've read the reactions online, | you'll probably know some vocal fans are disappointed with the | new art style. This is Ron's reply to them. | | There will be exceptions. You are one. I am another. But it | doesn't invalidate Ron's point, because it's easy to fact-check | it by going online and looking for opinions, even in Ron's own | blog. | Sharlin wrote: | "When you have fans like this, who needs haters?" | technovader wrote: | He's being a baby here. | | There's a proper way to take criticism from a passionate | fanbase of 20+ years. | | IMO the criticism is absolutely justified, just from looking at | the screenshots and trailer. | Sharlin wrote: | His response seems entirely reasonable, and some grumpiness | is definitely expected from someone whose domain is literally | grumpygamer.com. As a fan of the originals, I also see | nothing wrong with the art style of the new game. | deater wrote: | for those demanding chunky pixels, you should try this version: | | http://deater.net/weave/vmwprod/monkey/ | kgbcia wrote: | lucasarts had a string of hits that are timeless, dig, day of the | tentacle, sam and max[had own tv show], and full throttle. great | single player games that didn't require fast user clicks. you can | go at your own pace. | | it was like the studio Ghibli of the 90s | Andrew_nenakhov wrote: | > that didn't require fast user clicks | | It absolutely did! Curse that seagull in MI1 tavern, ugh. | ByThyGrace wrote: | > sam and max[had own tv show] | | Sam and Max was a 80s-90s comic by Steve Purcell[0], who was | also a LucasArts employee at the time. You will recognize his | art style in several Monkey Island scenes. | | Anyway the point is that the tv show was not based on the | videogame which you seem to be implying, but on the comic | instead. | | The comic series is artistically amazing. Purcell is a master | of setting an atmosphere. It's also meant to be comedic but the | humor is mainly cartoon violent slapstick mixed with pop | culture references (of the time). It's dated by now. | | 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Purcell | cpfohl wrote: | Man, I loved The Dig. Once my kids are old enough to _not_ have | nightmares from some of the scenes we're doing it. | Andrew_nenakhov wrote: | If you loved The Dig, you'll badly want a remake after _this_ | https://youtu.be/xHJlIhpNS2I | PeterHolzwarth wrote: | It's a bit ironic that he says he was not really a fan of Day of | the Tentacle's "Chuck Jones" art style, when the screenshots for | his upcoming Return to Monkey Island are all very specifically | that 90's-infused Chuck Jones style - multiple skewed perspective | lines in a scene, extreme avoidance of curves (rendered instead | as polygonal outlines, so to speak). | | The art style for his new game is rather ironically nostalgia- | laden in probably an unintentional way: it's deep nineties pop | art, ala "Xtreme", etc. | | <edit> This interview article has a number of screenshots that | demo this: https://www.theverge.com/2022/4/14/23021974/return-to- | monkey... | emmanueloga_ wrote: | Reminds me a bit of games like guacamelee [1]. There are a | bunch of new or newish games that use this "vector style" ... | | I always thought this is used mostly out of convenience since | it is cheaper/faster to animate with tools like Spine or Dragon | Bones. | | 1: https://www.drinkboxstudios.com/games/guacamelee-super- | turbo... | hadjian wrote: | I thought exactly the same! I remember, seeing screenshots of | DotT for the first time and the new screens of RtMI invoke the | same feeling. Love it! | seba_dos1 wrote: | Yeah, I kinda feel like the style of RoMI could make a better | DotT:Remastered than DotT:Remastered did :) | halfnormalform wrote: | The new one sort of reminds me of the "lowbrow" style of Josh | Agle, AKA Shag: http://www.shag.com | egypturnash wrote: | I replayed Secret of Monkey Island this weekend and was really | struck by what a ramshackle, distorted place Melee Island is. | It is an accurate cartoon caricature of slapdash architecture | on sinking ground. | | Here's the very first place Guybrush is controllable in: | | https://www.mobygames.com/game/amiga/secret-of-monkey-island... | | https://www.mobygames.com/game/amiga/secret-of-monkey-island... | | Look at those walls. Not a vertical one in sight. They're all | leaning. | | Deeper in town: | | https://www.mobygames.com/game/amiga/secret-of-monkey-island... | | https://www.mobygames.com/game/amiga/secret-of-monkey-island... | | Lots of straight lines, but no two buildings are in the same | perspective. It's cartoon cubism, filtered through a 640x480 | grid. Maurice Noble's work with Chuck Jones looms large over | the backgrounds but so does the realities of what cheap shacks | slapped together by pirates on constantly-sinking ground would | look like. | | I suspect the "Chuck Jones" art style of DOTT he's referring to | is the character design. Which was so Jones-influenced that I | recall hearing that when Lucasfilm had a chance to show it to | Chuck, he did the most flattering thing possible: he tried to | hire the animators to work at the new studio he was opening up. | foldr wrote: | > 640x480 grid | | 320x200. We could only dream of 640x480 with 256 colors in | those days! | egypturnash wrote: | Ah yeah, you're right! My bad. | chapliboy wrote: | The game looks stunning, and I'm happy about the direction they | have chosen graphically. | | What I am most excited about is what new game design and | mechanics we might get to see. I'm hoping it will be more than | raw point and click, and hopefully will involve more mechanics | for puzzle solving. | nu11ptr wrote: | I have incredible memories of playing MI1, and to a lesser | extent, MI2 (never finished - no Internet back then and these | games were tricky). I think it is very cool he is getting to make | the game he wants, and I do the same with my development work (it | is always for me, if someone else likes it...bonus). I'll reserve | judgement until release, but I personally don't like the art | style...but who cares, I'm probably not his audience anyway (I | stopped gaming years ago, but would probably pick up a copy if it | was retro style - and then never play it anyway). | babyshake wrote: | You never finished MI2??? Don't get spoiled, but you should | definitely finish it. | ricardo81 wrote: | Cool indeed. I think MI caught the spirit of gameplay for me, | alongside iconic titles like Elite and Civ. | | Pirates of the Caribbean had a similar spirit. | | I'll likely be handing over cash for this version. If the new | game has the same banter and half decent puzzles, it'll be a | winner, for me. Something to get my daughter to play with me if | she has the patience of walking about the place! | SamPatt wrote: | Curse of Monkey Island is still one of my all time favorites. The | voice acting and humor were second to none. | madarco wrote: | Ron says "I never liked the art in DotT...never liked the wacky | Chuck Jones style" but the first screens of RTMI looks exactly | like that! | | Not that I don't like that style, but I don't think it's a | surprise for Lucas Art fans. Day of the Tentacle, Sam & Max, | Fullthrottle weren't that far away (except with a lower | resolution) | Andrew_nenakhov wrote: | Full throttle had a fairly grounded art style. | WorldMaker wrote: | Relative to those others, sure, but it was still such an | interesting mishmash of biker/tattoo art, heavy metal art, | and dystopian imagery that doesn't exist just about anywhere | else in games. (The next closest is probably Brutal Legend, | for obvious reasons.) | unwind wrote: | This reminded me of the amusing way the leas character (Guybrush) | was named. Obligatory wiki linkage [1] but basically due to a | Deluxe Paint filename convention. | | [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guybrush_Threepwood | DocTomoe wrote: | Read it from the man himself - and also common myths around the | filename: https://grumpygamer.com/guybrush_fact_fiction | mdp2021 wrote: | I remained strongly impressed (and chuckly) by | | > _Facts are so 2015_ | | -- Ron Gilbert, Fall 2020 | erwincoumans wrote: | Fun games but did anyone read the footer on Ron's page? death by | dismemberment! | | "Unless otherwise noted, all content is Copyright 2004-2022 Ron | Gilbert. Unauthorized use under penalty of death by dismemberment | and/or fine not less than one million dollars. (v4.1)" | giords wrote: | Ah, that penalty is easily dismissible by pressing F13 | darkwater wrote: | When you read posts like this, and also the previous, linked one | [1], you can clearly see that Ron is a smart and humble guy. I | really dislike the fan mob that it's starting the hate because | RTMI is not going to be a throwback and retro-game. | | > Monkey Island 1 and 2 weren't pixel art games. They were games | using state-of- the-art tech and art. | | This is SO true, and as much as I loved those games, as much as I | stopped playing modern videogames and as much as I love the style | of Thimbleweed Park, going forward for an artist like Ron is what | _defines_ an artist. If you like MI1 and Mi2, just play MI1 and | MI2 again as I do from time to time. Just like you would watch | again a movie from the '70s or listen to the Beatles. But you | cannot ask an artist to stay always the same because you loved | their first works. | rob74 wrote: | What was special about the first two Monkey Island games (at | least for me) was the _atmosphere_. I mean, just look at this | screenshot: | https://www.adventurecorner.de//uploads/images/games/monkey1... | Parts 1 and 2 had this effect on me, with part 3 the magic was | mostly gone unfortunately. If _Return to Monkey Island_ manages | to recapture some of that, I don 't care if it's pixel art or | whatever else... | Biganon wrote: | I've been thinking about that quite a lot, but with Zelda | games. I've come to the conclusion that the old games feel | beautiful and mysterious and nostalgic _because I played them | as a child_. I 'm no longer a child, life is no longer the | same. It's not necessarily worse, it's just fundamentally | different. I will never blame Shigeru Miyamoto for that, it | would be absurd. | ncann wrote: | Yeah, it's a sad fact that I've realized myself as well. No | matter how good a game is, I'll never be able to experience | again that magical feeling when I played Pokemon for the | first time on the GB. | sigg3 wrote: | But you can experience it with new things! | | If you approach stuff with positivity, openness and | wonder you'll have a blast! This is my current experience | with learning Go, having learned Python previously. | | I don my explorer's hat and force myself to live into the | text, subject or code (Herder's Einfuhlung). Personally | it makes the journey so much more entertaining than | merely as a tools to an end. | ncann wrote: | I mean yes, the joy is still there when trying new things | for the first time, I would be lying if I said otherwise. | But it's just not the same. You know that feeling of | total absorption/encompassment when you played your | favorite game for the first time in your childhood? | There's nothing like it. I went to dinner thinking about | the game. I went to sleep thinking about the game. I went | to school thinking about the game. The joy when my | starter Pokemon evolved was indescribable. The game was | the only thing that was on my mind. What's even more | amazing is that I'm not a native English speaker, and I | did not understand a single word in the game back then, | yet somehow that did not impede me at all, in fact I | think it even added to the joy of exploration. | mlyle wrote: | I think it's something you have to work harder to find, | and perhaps find less often as you grow up. | | It's joyful to obsess over stuff; to try and get better; | to try and understand. | | There's two things, IMO, that get in the way as an adult: | | * The crush of ordinary responsibility can not leave | enough time for exploration and wonder. | | * Related: We just get used to following a routine and | not completely losing ourselves in something new. Maybe | we tell ourselves we can't get good at new things anymore | like we used to. | | Revisiting old stuff, like Monkey Island, is fun; but | it's not nearly as intense as something new. I'm looking | forward to it and it will be entertaining to share with | my family. It's been awhile since I've found this kind of | pure fun and intensity in video games, but I'm sure it'll | happen again. | nicolas_t wrote: | I've had this feeling not so long ago when playing | horizon zero dawn. I don't know why but I loved this game | so much that it reminded me of the feeling of playing | secret of mana as a kid. | gagege wrote: | I played MI1 for the first time last year and I can tell | you it's not just nostalgia. It's just a freaking great | game. | spywaregorilla wrote: | I was thinking about this quite a bit replaying ocarina of | time. It's now very apparent to me that a lot of the world | is giant sheets of 2d textures, with some scattered doors | as 3d objects, like castletown. Then I started to notice | some things that were... surprisingly good? My favorite: | Link had IK foot placement! His feet would land on | individual steps as you went up stairs. | cwillu wrote: | "Their minds ranged far and wide inside dreamscapes Daphne | wove for them, for she knew all the secrets of that art, | and many of the techniques of false-life sculpting, and | story-crafting, which, to her, were trite and worn, to him, | were new; and she found pleasure in his delight." | | --The Phoenix Exultant by John C. Wright | Keyframe wrote: | I'd agree with you completely if I hadn't played Breadth of | the Wild. It somehow managed to bring that child back and | front again. | munificent wrote: | There is a large component of that, but it's not _just_ | that for me. | | Minecraft evokes much of that sense of magic and wonder for | me and I didn't start playing it until my later 30s. | | Other key components are: | | * A world that is interactive enough to feel like a place | where you _are_ and not just imagery that you 're skimming | over. | | * Art that is detailed enough to be evocative but not so | detailed that it reaches the uncanny valley of looking | real-ish but not actually real. | | Minecraft does both in spades. | wtetzner wrote: | I think this is a big part of why I still enjoy playing | Morrowind more than pretty much all newer open world | games. | | It felt like you were really in a place, and the lack of | HUD directing you to "points of interest" made it that | much more exciting and interesting when you discovered | something new. | alanfranz wrote: | I did play Life is Strange when I was 36. The story wasn't | so great, but the atmosphere? Just great. | pcthrowaway wrote: | One of the few games I've played in my 30s. I really | liked the story actually, until the final chapter where | Max is navigating some weird Dreamscape that goes on a | bit too long. | aidenn0 wrote: | The first MI is almost not believable that it is an EGA game. | Then Loom came out and looks even better. These games pushed | the limits of what graphical hardware of the time was capable | of. | babyshake wrote: | If you look at the screenshots and art released, they are | definitely at least attempting an atmospheric feeling. I'll | give them the benefit of the doubt. For me the thing I really | love most is the MIDI music. Occasionally I'll put on the | score from MI2, Loom or another game and it brings me back. | windmaster wrote: | That! Monkey Island was all about the atmosphere. It brought | the caribbean to my living room. | 867-5309 wrote: | you'd be hard pushed to recreate that in mspaint! | ykonstant wrote: | Oh! I am glad to see the atmosphere aspect of MI emphasized! | I played these games as a preteen, and much of the humor went | above my head (non-native speaker). It was the atmosphere, | the setting and the characters that made me love the games, | especially the first one. I spent _so_ much time on Melee | Island; the eerie forest, the voodoo lady, the jail, the | docks... these places and people made a tremendous impression | on young me. | | EDIT: Oh, and how can I forget the music! | technovader wrote: | Fortunately Michael Land has made the music for every | Monkey Island game yet, and is also onboard to do the music | for this one | [deleted] | Razengan wrote: | > _What was special about the first two Monkey Island games | (at least for me) was the atmosphere._ | | Same! First of all I LOVED the "eternal night" in some | locations. | | It was unexplained and unmentioned (though an easy headcanon | might be that everything you do there takes place during a | single night) but it has a _huge_ effect on the aesthetic | feel of the game world. | | The other thing that evoked the sense of adventure was the | balance between the Civilized and Unexplored parts of its | world, a common theme in pirate settings. | | > _with part 3 the magic was mostly gone unfortunately._ | | Curse certainly felt a bit "off" to me (I wasn't aware that | it wasn't made by the same people but I could feel it) but it | still had some charm, except for the abrupt final episode. | hhlevnjak3 wrote: | I could never say part 3 doesn't have atmosphere. The music, | the art, the overall feel was different, but great on it's | own. | | On the other hand, the story, and the subtle humor from 1 and | 2 was lacking or different. | simulate-me wrote: | Without having context of when this was made and that it was | part of a game, this looks like a fairly generic picture of a | mountain. You regularly see images with far more atmosphere | on r/PixelArt. | AdvancedCarrot wrote: | I think a big part of it as well is the music that comes in | when you're first presented with this scene. | | I genuinely think this game (which I didn't discover until | years later following its release) has the impact that it | has for me because of the brilliant soundtrack. | pcthrowaway wrote: | That music on tinny computer speakers (if you didn't have | Soundblasters at the time) was something else: | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IOL4q5tDDQ | | I think it was here on HN that I previously read a | comment breaking down how the PC speaker could only play | one tone at a time, but the team managed to simulate two | overlapping melodies | mdpye wrote: | While that sounds like an amazing technical | accomplishment, I can tell you that discovering it on an | amiga with a hifi separates amp and speakers[1] was | definitely better. I was very lucky, but I'm not sorry! | ;) The soundtrack is sensational. | | 1. To be fair, the speakers were intended for the back | shelf of a car. It _was_ cobbled together from castoffs | found in the loft... | auselen wrote: | It was clearly something better for me, and I think I | played it around '94, it was better than what was on tv or | video. And it was why we were playing video games, because | with each one they kept getting better. | interpol_p wrote: | I don't think the atmosphere is quite there in this new one, | here's Melee Island from The Verge's screenshot. The art | doesn't sit well with me: https://cdn.vox- | cdn.com/thumbor/dQbYIfWFh5WfWwby87FoHyI8uog=... | | In the modern version the town is no longer twinkling and | glittering. It appears smaller due to the large buildings. | The strong purple tints (especially on the horizon) gives the | scene an uneasy feeling. And the lookout point is no longer | forlorn, it appears close to the town due to the way the | whole island appears downscaled because of the larger town | elements. We have also lost the reflection of the lights in | the water, making the island appear to sit on the ground | rather than in the waves | | I'm still going to play the game and hope to love it. But the | art style seems to feature very strong colours and intense | gradients. When animated the motion seems too fluid, with | characters deforming like in a Flash animation | wellthisisgreat wrote: | Interesting. I think the old picture linked above have a | dreamy atmosphere because of the jagged edges which create | a foggy / twinkling effect | practice9 wrote: | The old art feels, in a way, more realistic. | | One underappreciated aspect of low definition graphics is | that your mind can interpolate the visuals, and you feel | more immersed. (suspension is disbelief has a positive | effect here) | | When graphics become HD or closer to photorealistic they | are starting to trigger an uncanny valley effect. | the_af wrote: | > _One underappreciated aspect of low definition graphics | is that your mind can interpolate the visuals_ | | Yes, what Scott McCloud calls "closure" in _Understanding | Comics_. | | That said, my mind also interpolates the newer version of | Melee Island, because it's cartoony and "abstract" | enough, and so I also like it. | jeffwask wrote: | Fan culture in the age of twitter is so polluted with loud | minorities. | ipaddr wrote: | Live by the mob die by the mob. When a mob is attacking your | idea it might have some merits or not but it has reached a | popularity breakthrough. A mob attacks when they feel | threatened. A mob can be used as a tool. Followers are a pre- | mob description of a group. | | Putting out a retro version could be seen as a greedy activity | that tarnishes the original that could get a different mob | after you. | jaimebuelta wrote: | The interesting bit about this kind of games is that you don't | need state-of-the-art tech, and art at this point is mostly | about choices, not necessarily about what's technically | feasible. The best example is the usage of orchestral music, | according to the post. | | I mean, for an 2D adventure game, you are basically animating | characters. The objective is to create something like an | animation movie, in whatever art style you want. It doesn't | need to push the tech in the same style that the first games | where. | | Which is great! I want them to be spending their efforts in the | game, artwork, narrative, puzzles, jokes, etc, not on how to | create a background that looks OK if you have an EGA screen and | a recognisable melody in a PC speaker. | | Whether is pixel art or not is irrelevant to me, as long as | it's well drawn and animated. I just hope that they end with a | fantastic result. I'll sure buy it and play it when it's out. | seba_dos1 wrote: | > and art at this point is mostly about choices, not | necessarily about what's technically feasible. The best | example is the usage of orchestral music, according to the | post. | | Usage of real recorded instruments can still be technically | challenging today if you want to do what Monkey Island 2 did | with its audio via iMuse - synchronization between music and | in-game events (easier) and smooth background music | transitions between rooms (harder). MI2 Special Edition | recorded its soundtrack with real instruments and while it | did a pretty good job at it, it still noticeably simplified | some transitions the original version had, because they were | much easier to achieve back when it was using MIDI. | Tyr42 wrote: | One interesting innovation is in Octopath traveller. It has | set up the music before the boss fights where it is ready | to jump into the boss theme at any point you finish the | dialog boxes. | | https://youtu.be/b7Zc3f8cPnU?t=215 | seba_dos1 wrote: | That's one of the things Monkey Island 2 did. It also had | the track seamlessly changing cues and adding/removing | layers as you entered various sections of a location, had | multiple transitions between the same tracks that were | chosen depending on when did you trigger them and in-game | events were often timed to wait for the beat to | synchronize them with music. Later games with similarly | dynamic sampled music that I'm aware about (The Curse of | Monkey Island, MI2:SE, Portal 2 and now Octopath | Traveler) did some of these things, but none of them came | close to the level of complexity in the original Monkey | Island 2. | | Although one reason for that (other than the obvious MIDI | vs. sampled one) could be that in MI2, a lot of effort | went into this music system which ended up working great, | but... not many people actually noticed ;) | cptskippy wrote: | > The interesting bit about this kind of games is that you | don't need state-of-the-art tech, and art at this point is | mostly about choices, not necessarily about what's | technically feasible. | | Certain types of games exist and thrive due to what's | technically feasible at the time they're created, just like | any other form of art. | | An example, Cuphead isn't radically different from something | like Metroid in terms of gameplay and yet Cuphead was | technically impossible when Metroid was all the rage. | Similarly Metroid's asthetic is a product of it's era and | wouldn't be received today in the same way. | | Games are art, they simultaneously drive the medium while | being limited by it. | RajT88 wrote: | Ron Gilbert making a modern MI is like Metallica cutting their | hair for these fans. | soneca wrote: | I am glad Ron thinks like that. | | I didn't know there was this rage against not being pixel art | (but I should have suspected). I am glad it isn't. I backed and | loved Thimbleweed Park (even the ending), but that project was | all around nostalgia. The gameplay, the X-Files-y story, it | made sense for that game to be pixel art. Now Monkey Island is | exactly what Ron said, state of the art. I liked even the 3D | one. | | I am even more excited for this new one after reading the post. | SkeuomorphicBee wrote: | > I really dislike the fan mob that it's starting the hate | because RTMI is not going to be a throwback and retro-game. | | That is the same blow-back that George Lucas caught when he | made the Star Wars prequels. When George Lucas made the | original Star Wars he set out to make a state-of-art sci-fi | movie, and in fact he pushed the state-of-art ahead by a huge | leap in that movie. A decade or two later, with the evolution | of cinema effects, the original trilogy stopped being seen as | state-of-art, but kept its cultural influence now under a new | lens, it started being seen as a type of retro-futurism. So | when George Lucas set out to make the prequels, he again | intended to make state-of-art sci-fi movies*, as is his right, | and as he should, but many of the fans instead wanted the new | trilogy to match the retro-futurism feel they now assigned to | the original ones, hence the many complaints at the time. | | Interestingly enough, later when Disney made the sequels they | went the other way completely, and bet heavily on the retro- | futurism feel (down even to the story arcs), so they got blow- | back from the fans that instead wanted a state-of-art sci-fi. | | * If he achieved that state-of-art goal is debatable, my | personal opinion he did, but just barely, failing to leap | forward like the original did on its time, so they do feel a | bit like "generic late 90s/early 00s sci-fi".* | smudgy wrote: | I'm not sure a major problem with the prequels was the | aesthetic. | | It never bothered me that it felt more "modern" than the | original trilogy, it bothered me (and plenty of others) that | the story wasn't good. For something that was in his head for | such a long time, it came out half-baked. | Cthulhu_ wrote: | It's the same with the sequels, they're making big jumps in | the established lore, and they made the huge mistake of not | actually fleshing out the story beforehand (like e.g. the | MCU), leading to three disconnected movies full of | attempted nostalgia and pushing merchandise; they made | fanservice instead of good films. | speeder wrote: | Actually from what I heard they DID flesh out things. | | But then they made the serious error of hiring Rian | Johnson AND giving him free rein with the direction of | the movie. | | Rian Johnson already stated himself, he likes making | divisive films. He also stated he doens`t like Star | Wars... | | So he proceeded to ignore the plans that they had, and | just do whatever he wanted. | | 1. He ignored several planned story arcs and just shoved | things. 2. He ignored past movies and create a lot of | non-sense. 3. He ignored the Extended Universe but in a | bad way, Extended Universe books had a look of technical | information and whatnot that circulated back into canon, | with movies and canon TV series using that information, | RJ just ignored that information. | | I fully expected Lucasfilm to just give up and not even | attempt to make Film 9, that is how bad Film 8 fucked up | the plans... But seemly they made an honest attempt to | save the franchise in Film 9 by making it fanservice on | top of fanservice and hope fans forget all the continuity | errors and non-sense the plot became riddled with in Star | Wars 8... | vlunkr wrote: | And Disney could have said "no" to any of his ideas at | any point. He's become a scapegoat for bitter fans who | can't see that Disney didn't know what to do after the | first movie. | halostatue wrote: | I find Ep 7 to be mostly unwatchable because it's almost | all fan service without a real story to be found. There | was no plot for Ep 8 to hang itself on, just a few | coathooks widely spread. | | Ep 8 had some really interesting character arcs, but also | made some basic errors. As a _movie_ , I think that it's | the strongest of the three sequels. Given a lack of plot | points to really hang off, Johnson seems to have done | something interesting, but left even fewer plot points to | hang off than Abrams left him. Let's be clear: if | Lucasfilm had disagreed with his direction, they would | have taken him off the project. | | Ep 9 was more fan service (who can we throw into _this_ | scene?) with an _even more inexplicable_ plot hook (if | the Emperor was coming back in any way, there should have | been hints of that in Ep 7). | | I do not understand the fascination with J J Abrams. He | claims to be a fan of various media, but IMO he is the | shallowest type of fan out there, appreciating only | certain aesthetics without looking any deeper. His Star | Trek films are _the absolute worst_ of all the Star Trek | films, even worse than Star Trek V: The Final Frontier. | Why are they the worst? Because they have become Generic | Action Films with a Star Trek veneer. (This is more or | less my complaint with _Picard_.) I dread the idea of | seeing J J Abrams touch any more science fiction | properties because he just doesn't _get_ them and turns | them into Michael Bay films (but with lens flares instead | of explosions). | WorldMaker wrote: | Abrams stated in more than one interview that he didn't | know Star Trek much beyond Wrath of Khan and wasn't much | interested in Star Trek. Star Trek to JJ was always just | the audition for Star Wars. | | He proved he was great at nailing the _aesthetic_ even if | so many other qualities of the franchise like writing and | plot take a back seat. | | That's basically his Star Wars movies in a nutshell too: | he absolutely nails the aesthetic 100% and everything | else suffers. I think that's why they feel so much like | fan service rather than standalone efforts because of | that uncanny valley effect where they feel so much like | old Star Wars movies and don't have great ideas but to | ape old Star Wars plots, but still aren't "Old Star | Wars". A lot of what was new in the films added greatly | to the aesthetic of the franchise and pushed that, at | least, in new directions. | | Honestly, I think "the Emperor has returned somehow" is | pure 100% Star Wars aesthetic, too. Weird cloning | nonsense: very Star Wars. Evil villains returning at | surprise hours after being silently behind the curtain | for movies: very Star Wars. Absolutely the writing could | have done better of foreshadowing that than by doing it | in Fortnite of all places (!), but it's still very Star | Wars to just "oh, here's the Emperor now". The new | trilogy "rhymes" with the original trilogy: Snoke like | Vader is clearly a Lieutenant of someone else (and | turning out to be a broken clone of the Emperor, very | Star Wars) and then Vader/Snoke are revealed to be less | important and we fight the Emperor directly. The only | missing is the "I am your father" bit for Snoke, but we | all know how corny Rian Johnson thought that was, despite | being the exact sort of soap opera (well, _pulp serial_ ) | plotting that made Star Wars what it was/is. | kemayo wrote: | Abrams was an interesting (read: poor) choice for the | final film, because he's _famous_ for setting up | compelling plots and not sticking the landing. See: Lost. | His whole "mystery box" thing is great at pulling in | viewers, but he's never been able to come up with | something that works when he's forced to finally open the | box. | | Amusing juxtaposition in critical reception: | | Article about his mystery box thing before Rise: | https://www.success.com/jj-abrams-and-the-unopened- | mystery-b... | | Article about his mystery box thing after Rise: | https://screenrant.com/star-wars-rise-skywalker-abrams- | myste... | kemayo wrote: | I do agree with you that Disney mismanaged the whole | trilogy, and the fault lies with them. They very clearly | went into it without any sort of plan or even a | particular vision, deferring completely to whatever each | director wanted to do. With minimal imposition of a plot | outline, the whole thing could have gone much better, | even while still leaving the individual directors to | mostly decide how they got there. | | To my mind, letting Abrams double-down on swerving back | to his plot in episode 9 was their biggest management sin | when it comes to creating a coherent plot arc. If they'd | carried on with what 8 was setting up we'd have had | ["nostalgia" => "twist" => "resolution"], and instead we | were left with ["nostalgia" => "twist" => "ignore that! | more nostalgia"]. The former could have worked out and | won over those who disliked the Last Jedi twists, the | latter just flopped unsatisfyingly. (A second-movie twist | was always in the cards, given general fan sentiment | about Empire.) | | Disclaimer: I personally liked episode 8 the most of that | trilogy, and it's the only one I'd bother to go rewatch. | It has the best direction by far, along with the most | striking visuals of the lot and most of the quotable | lines. _That said_ , I think my take on this holds up | regardless of which side of the Last Jedi divide you fall | on. :D | dylan-m wrote: | Yep, management sins abound. It made sense to me that | some people would be picking at Ryan Johnson's film as | defiling the saga or whatever because it _was_ divisive, | but obviously if you 're trying to tell a good story - | and it isn't like Johnson forced Disney to produce his | film - you'll find a way to work with that and honour the | world you're creating. Instead, they threw fuel on the | fire, practically breaking the fourth wall as they do | everything they can to _reverse_ the thing with Episode | 9. People shouldn 't be talking about how the writers | disagreed with each other, but here we are; the lasting | legacy of the last three Star Wars movies is not the | movies themselves, but the story of how they were | politicked and focus-grouped into existence. Nobody | involved here had even the slightest concept of artistic | creation. | | And to be fair, I liked Episode 8. Flawed, stupid casino | planet bit, the ending was silly. But Star Wars isn't | known for its plot and logical consistency anyway; the | series is 99% retcons and fan theories. What's important | is the atmosphere and the characters, and what the meagre | plot _means_ for those characters. And there was actually | some genuine effort being made. | WorldMaker wrote: | > To my mind, letting Abrams double-down on swerving back | to his plot in episode 9 was their biggest management sin | when it comes to creating a coherent plot arc. | | Abrams was an Executive Producer on Ep 8 still and was | supposedly in the room for all of the plot development. | He personally could have avoided most of that swerve had | he been paying attention. Admittedly, he thought at the | time it was Trevorrow's problem because Disney didn't | fire Trevorrow from Ep 9 until the "last minute", but | there's a lot of interesting questions left about what | Abrams even thought the "resolution" could possibly be | even with Trevorrow at the helm. He was still an | Executive Producer in a role that should have been | preparing for the trilogy as a whole to succeed. | | It takes a village to make a movie and all that, and I'm | not personally blaming Abrams, though it sounds like it, | I think Disney management should have been more involved | too. The whole Trevorrow thing reeks of Disney management | failure and bad contract planning. (Between that and the | shenanigans with Lord/Miller over Solo...) | | I think Abrams made the best movie for Ep 9 that he could | have given the time, budget, and resources he had to meet | a "set in stone" holiday release date. I think he did the | best he could with what Johnson left him, and honestly I | don't think anyone could have resolved Johnson's plot | twists well and _still have felt like Star Wars_. He had | good ideas in absentia, but they weren 't "Star Wars". | | (Admittedly, I thought Ep 8 was the entire wrong genre | for Star Wars: it was a Vietnam War movie in a franchise | built around World War 2 metaphors/aesthetics. I also had | a big issue with the "Three Billboards problem" of Poe in | Ep 8. In my eyes he's unreedemably the villain of the | film, and the character is entirely broken beyond repair | in Ep 8. But also, admittedly, I haven't liked any of | Rian Johnson's films that I've watched [inc. Knives Out; | and I especially hated Looper].) | kemayo wrote: | > Admittedly, I thought Ep 8 was the entire wrong genre | for Star Wars: it was a Vietnam War movie in a franchise | built around World War 2 metaphors/aesthetics. | | Ah, but Star Wars has always been a Vietnam metaphor | filtered through WW2 aesthetics. Specifically, with the | Rebels being the Viet Cong -- they're a small group using | asymmetric warfare tactics against a vast military | machine that's exerting cultural hegemony over even the | territory it doesn't control. Lucas has actually been | pretty explicit about this being his intention in | interviews. | WorldMaker wrote: | That's a fair point, though in practical terms I think | Lucas just took the roundabout way to arrive a metaphor | involving the real world Maquis (as opposed to Star | Trek's odder counterpart): | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maquis_(World_War_II) | | There's still a lot fewer "shades of grey" in "French | rebels versus Nazis" than in all the complicated | geopolitics of Viet Cong versus US military. Lucas may | have used the idea from the Vietnam War, but he didn't | just filter it through a WW2 aesthetic, he entirely | embedded it in it. | | To my mind Star Wars isn't exactly the franchise for | "maybe the Empire are the good guys in the story" shades | of grey. (Though admittedly I also find it appalling how | many people cosplay the Empire and how much merch there | is and seeming adulation the Empire gets. Though it is | seemingly great for Disney's bottom line if people don't | think of the First Order as a Nazi Regime that exploded | entire planets worth of people like the text tells us | they are.) | hutzlibu wrote: | My first impression was the same, but later I came to the | conclusion that it was just way more deep. | | The first star wars was glorifying rebellious david against | goliath setting and fun adventures. A young nobody becomes | a hero for the good side. People identified with luke | skywalker. | | The later was way more about politics, intrigues and | corruption of power. Not a bad story, but much more heavy | (and depressing). A young nobody becomes a dark lord. | Identifying with a dark lord? A bit harder. | | (And the disney movies try to be simple again, but are too | shallow for my taste, but are well shot) | the_af wrote: | The Star Wars prequels simply weren't good for | storytelling/plot reasons, not just visuals. | | The characters weren't interesting, or even worse, were | universally reviled like Jar Jar. The main character (both as | a kid and as a teenager) was annoying as hell. The story | didn't mesh well with the established Star Wars movies, like | that thing with midichlorians that was thankfully played down | in subsequent movies. For some reason, Lucas moved The | Phantom Menace from "Young Adult" territory (as was the | Original Trilogy) to "kid's movie", but halfway and | inconsistently, so you get Jar Jar and "yipeee!" but also | Trade Federation taxation routes -- what the hell? | | To be fair, the visuals were _also_ abused by Lucas. I think | there 's a legitimate criticism to be made of George Lucas | and his "horror of the void": when he didn't have the | tech/budget, he had to live with vast empty spaces, and the | movies got that "Spaghetti Western" barren look that actually | made them better. When CGI became cheaper and easier to use, | George Lucas decided to fill every bit of empty screen with | some gizmo or cute alien screaming at the screen, and his | movies suffered because of this. | ffhhj wrote: | Lucas planned Jar Jar to be revealed as the Sith Lord in | the second movie, that's why the character is unlikeable, | but it would have been an interesting plot twist and would | have made the first movie rewatchable since he place many | little clues. Authors shouldn't be scared to develop their | vision, and then create something to please them that will | suck anyway. | kemayo wrote: | I'm pretty sure that Darth Jar Jar is only a fan theory, | without any commentary from Lucas confirming it. (We can | speculate, but I dislike saying it so confidently.) | babyshake wrote: | The prequels weren't exactly full of shocking plot twists | that weren't clearly telegraphed or just shown on the | movie poster (young Anakin with the Darth Vader shadow). | I don't think Jar Jar was ever going to be evil. | the_af wrote: | I think Darth Jar Jar is an amusing fan theory, but fan | theory nonetheless. Yes, Ahmed Best (the actor) said it | wasn't out of the question, but there's no official | confirmation this was even considered. All there is, is | fan based theories speculating about circumstantial | evdience. | whywhywhywhy wrote: | Also gotta keep in mind if it's all CGI he can just sit in | a chair in the same studio the whole movie directing it | from a monitor. | | Once you see the behind the scenes you start to see this as | one of the main reasons it's so CGI filled. | GaylordTuring wrote: | I'm still disappointed that Darth Jar Jar didn't come to | fruition. It would have been perfect. In episode VII, | Yoda is introduced as this ridiculous character that | turned out to be a Jedi master, with the moral of the | story being that you shouldn't judge a book by its cover. | Even with this seed planted in the original tribology, | everyone saw Jar Jar as this clown who shouldn't be taken | serious. It would have brilliant to reveal that it was | all a charade that no one could see through, not even the | viewers who already had seen one such reveal taking place | in the past. | | I'm bummed. | whywhywhywhy wrote: | Agree 100%, would have taken resolve to push through the | criticism and pull that off but it feels like he became | too influenced by the criticism then ended up shipping | milquetoast rubbish. | | Imagine how fun it would have been watching Ep1 and | getting annoyed by Jar Jar once you know he ends up super | evil. | dleslie wrote: | Episode 1 is a terrible movie. | | I tried watching it with my kids as a marathon of Star Wars | for May the Fourth, and they became bored with the trade | federation and Senate, and were annoyed by Jar Jar. The pod | racing was the saving grace, in their eyes, but even it was | only mildly amusing. | | I turned it off when they left the room when the pod racing | finished. | sam0x17 wrote: | I agree with the import of this, but there is an economy to | games, and if it turns out that the gamers really do just want | another installment in the old style, you're missing out on | that significant segment of the market until you do just that. | Art is only art if it gets made, and at least frequently, | someone has to pay the artist for the art to get made. | bnralt wrote: | > I really dislike the fan mob that it's starting the hate | | I looked into responses to the announcement (on YouTube, | Reddit, various forums), and didn't find any example of a "fan | mob that it's starting the hate." Just about all of the top | responses were extremely positive. I only found a small | minority of comments saying they don't like the art style, and | they're all pretty tame. For example, sorting by controversial | on Reddit brings up this: | | > I want to be excited but I'm not thrilled about that art and | I haven't liked a Monkey Island thing since Curse of Monkey | Island. | | There can be a tendency to exaggerate any criticism in an | effort to dismiss it. Ron is certainly free to make whatever | game he likes. But at the same time, people are free to dislike | whatever game he makes. It doesn't make them hateful or a mob, | simply people with different opinions. | causi wrote: | I like the look, and I think it's better than, say, Monkey | Island HD. I do see why someone might not like it. The new | art style is _extremely_ contemporary and basically looks | exactly like every cartoon show of the last five years. | aunty_helen wrote: | Youtube has definitely been running sentiment analysis and | down ranking any critical comments. Go to any music video and | read the comments, it's like everyone was given a lobotomy. | | It's scary tech censorship. I would take the wild go f | yourself days of YouTube comments over this v1 matrix toxic | positivity world any day. | rideontime wrote: | Maybe people just don't respond to music videos with a lot | of negativity? Not every comment section needs to be | "balanced." | aunty_helen wrote: | Luckily I can remember back more than 6 months to know | this isn't the case, so I don't need to sit here | wondering. | pier25 wrote: | We live in weird times. | | Something amazing can happen (such as a new Monkey Island game) | and there will always be an angry mob with pitchforks that will | be very vocal about it on social media. | | This probably was always the case, but the internet now serves as | an amplifier of some sort of hype-based social feedback mechanism | for ideas and opinions. This mechanism probably made sense | 200,000+ years ago when groups were very small and it helped | survival by promoting social cohesion. But today the internet | connects billions of humans and it's a pretty toxic behavior. | technovader wrote: | More like legitimate criticism that is brushed off as "haters" | and "mob" | [deleted] | YakBizzarro wrote: | About the art, I think another perfect example is Grim Fandango. | It was the first Lucasarts 3D adventure, at a time when the 3D | (late '90) was a graphically inferior solution to 2D. However, | they exploited the low polygon number, to give a special | character to the models, like paper dolls. So the heresy of | moving from 2D was instead a conscious artistic choice, strictly | linked to the then-modern technologies. | Andrew_nenakhov wrote: | To me, Grim Fandango looked fantastic. What made it difficult | to play were the cursed keyboard controls. I still did beat it, | but never wanted to come back to it because of those controls. | A couple of years ago, I replayed the modern remaster, and boy | does the good old mouse pointer improve the game immensely. | WorldMaker wrote: | It's hard to remember how much controls for 3D games were a | wild west for so long, especially on PC. (The original Tomb | Raider controls are pretty bad, too, for instance.) People | act like modern WASD+Mouse Look is an "ancient" standard | passed down for centuries but a lot of that was hard work in | 1990s and a lot of failed control schemes that never quite | worked right, even in their time. (Similarly too how | relatively "ancient" the modern two-stick controller flow | feels, but isn't all that old actually. Remember how the N64 | named the weird yellow D-Pad the "C-buttons" in part because | they thought that might be more natural for "C is for" Camera | control than the dual stick position?) | bob1029 wrote: | > So the heresy of moving from 2D was instead a conscious | artistic choice, strictly linked to the then-modern | technologies. | | This is how it should have been all along. The only reason | modern GPUs are in such demand is because we forgot to apply | art before shiny tech. I don't know why things like polygon | count and texture resolution turned into a metric for fun. | | To this day I can have way more fun in older games like | Minecraft than super polished AAA titles like RDR2 or Cyberpunk | 2077. The graphics used to get me interested back when we | thought photorealism was going to make shit way more fun, but | the reality of artistic expression turned out to be much more | complex than this... | dale_glass wrote: | Plenty games went the other way. For every stylish Grim | Fandango there's been dozen of Superman 64 and Bubsy 3D, | where the developers spent so much time trying to get | graphics to work that they had no time left for gameplay or | story. | | Shiny tech means there's much less fighting with the | technology that's needed. You can take advantage of that | today you don't need to optimize every clock cycle and spend | the time polishing up the gameplay. | | Also, some stories require a fair amount of tech. Superman 64 | should have happened in a bustling Metropolis, just like | Cyberpunk 2077 does. But it was impossible with the | technology of the time. | Nition wrote: | Another great example of choosing an art style that worked with | the limitations of early 3D is Interstate '76, from 1997: | https://i.imgur.com/ro5k82Z.png | seba_dos1 wrote: | ...and then Escape from Monkey Island utilized the same tech as | Grim Fandango, but without those stylistic choices that made | Grim Fandango's graphics work so well :) | noduerme wrote: | Well, that was a fuckton more fun to read than the monthly update | from Chris Roberts | kappuchino wrote: | The german actor and musician? I'm confused. | ChoGGi wrote: | The Star Citizen guy | paines wrote: | You meant to say Wing Commander | WorldMaker wrote: | Yeah that movie was awful, over-hyped and over-budget, | too, just like Roberts' greatest unfinished game | Freelancer | fouadf wrote: | Big fan of the game series here. Honestly it's such a thrill to | have Ron work on RTMI. I can't wait to see what he has in store | for us. | Copenjin wrote: | This is one of the few cases where I'll just buy it, I don't even | care what good decisions he is making. | | I've played Thimbleweed Park and loved it, brought back a lot of | memories. | GaylordTuring wrote: | I agree. There are very few games that I'll buy on day one | without even reading the reviews. This will be one of them. | technovader wrote: | Ron you really should not be bashing your oldest most hard core | fans. | | Monkey Island 2 is a masterpiece. The 2D hand drawn style and | animation are a huge part of it. | | I'll take any Monkey Island sequel, but if you take a closer look | at say the Tales of Monkey Island sequels, you'll see what people | are worried about. | | Monkey Island 4 was TERRIBLE. Fully 3D and tank controls. Tales | of Monkey Island was great but completely ruined by terrible tank | controls. | | A proper Monkey Island games needs to be 1. Point and Click 2. | Have excellent puzzle design and structure 3. Ideally 2D hand | drawn art and animation 4. Least important, Pixelated style like | MI2 or Loom | | People who are critizing the trailer are worried we're getting | another Tales of Monkey Island or Monkey Island 4. | | As long as you nail #1 (proper point and click controls) I think | you will still make a better Monkey Island sequel since Curse of | Monkey Island | Andrew_nenakhov wrote: | > Monkey Island 2 is a masterpiece. | | My mileage certainly differs. I loved how it looked, but to me | it is by far the weakest of the lucasarts games I played (and I | played all but the first Maniac Mansion and Zac McKraken). It | is far too difficult! Far too many locations and items, you | just get overwhelmed in the middle part of the game. | | MI1 was a much better game in this regard. | seba_dos1 wrote: | What do 3D games have to do with this though? The new game is | very clearly not 3D. | | Also, while Escape was absolutely atrocious, Tales wasn't so | bad. It wasn't point'n'click, but unlike Escape it actually had | reasonable controls. | technovader wrote: | The new game isn't 3D, you're right. At least from the | trailer I can assume so. But I wouldn't rule it out | completely. Let's see when we actually get some gameplay. | | But it still feels like a major downgrade to Curse of Monkey | Island or the originals. | | It looks like every other game, very generic style. It's lost | the charm of the original games IMO. | | I think Ron has an opportunity to differentiate his game from | all the bad sequels we got before it. | seba_dos1 wrote: | "All the bad sequels"? From all Monkey Island games, I'd | say only Escape could be considered somewhat bad. It felt | rather uninspired compared to others, control scheme was | awful and it aged the worst way of all MI games. All the | rest are really great. | | Monkey Island series has been drastically changing the art | style in its every single installment. When it comes to | this new style, I find it hard to judge from still | unpopulated screenshots, as they feel way too static to me. | The trailer looks nice though. | WorldMaker wrote: | If you ignore the awful controls and equally awful | minigames, I think Escape is still a fun pirate tale with | a lot of things to love about it. I think the plot's | overall is pretty inspired about the gentrification of | the pirate islands, and it's the natural progression from | Curse's exploration of the same themes (which in turn | those themes going all the back to things like Secret's | used boat sales lot). A lot of Escape is extremely funny, | too. It just has that huge grind in the middle made worse | by awful controls and environments that were both too big | and too densely packed with sight gags and too empty all | at once. | | "Somewhat bad", sure, given those qualifications of | pretend the controls and their grind don't exist. But | also, more inspired than many give it credit for and | still "worst Monkey Island" is a relatively high bar | compared to other franchises we could mention. | technovader wrote: | I don't disagree. | | I actually played through and finished EMI. I think its | tonnes of fun and arguable better than CMI. | | But I won't say the tank controls didn't ruin an | otherwise great game | WorldMaker wrote: | I know Schafer wasn't involved in EMI and so had no | direct interest in doing it but with the huge underlying | similarities in the engine it would have been nice to get | an EMI remaster side-by-side the Grim Fandango remaster | with similar controls improvements. | | One of these days maybe SCUMMVM will finally get around | to gifting us the right controls for EMI to make it truly | fun to experience. | technovader wrote: | I don't know how anyone can see a Monkey Island 2/3 | screenshot, and compare it with this abomination, and say | "it looks fine" | | Monkey Island 2 was a gorgeous work of art. Every scene | was worthy of being a wallpaper. | | This trailer looks like something out of Teletoon / | Cartoon Network. It's a style that is clearly lazy / easy | / cheap. | the_af wrote: | > _Ron you really should not be bashing your oldest most hard | core fans._ | | I don't read anything Ron said as "bashing". He explains why he | is not interested in making pixel art games. He is also | promising you this is the best possible Monkey Island game he | can make, one he is proud of. | technovader wrote: | He's playing the victim and calling them haters. | | It's a legitimate criticism about the art style. No one is | "hating" | | Unless we're at a point where saying anything negative is | "hating" | the_af wrote: | CTRL+F of "hate" and "hating" gives zero results in that | page. This is what Ron _actually_ says about _some_ fans: | | > _" It's ironic that the people who don't want me to make | the game I want to make are some of the hard core Monkey | Island fans. And that is what makes me sad about all the | comments."_ | | And that's it. He's not "bashing" all fans, not even _some_ | fans. He 's just explaining his vision and what his goal is | for this Monkey Island game, and also expressing | disappointment that some fans don't want him to make the | game he wants. | | I think his points are solid. Monkey Island I & II weren't | retrogames, and so it makes sense he won't try to turn this | Monkey Island into a retrogame either. | | That's it. No "hate". No "hating". No "bashing". | hitpointdrew wrote: | I love this post. I know a decent amount of indie devs, I also | have done some hobby game development myself. I see this alarming | trend of devs and small studios that are, what I would call, | hyper engaging with their players. I get it, the players are | important, you want to sell the game, you want people to play it. | But, the entitlement and feedback I have seen from some players | is just ridiculous. Most players don't have the fist clue as to | what makes a good game, or just how hard it actually is to make | games. I feel like this post was very elegant way of basically | saying "Shut the hell up, it's my game, I don't care what you | want, I am making this game primarily for me. This is my art, and | my way of expressing myself and sharing it with the world, this | is not a collaboration. If you like it great, if you don't, oh | well.", but in a much more palatable and acceptable manner. | stuckinhell wrote: | Indie game development isn't a hobby these days. Hence the | hyper engagement, even big companies like Wendy's hyper engage | people on twitter. | hitpointdrew wrote: | I don't think the level of engagement is helpful, in the end | it makes a terrible hodgepodge product that no one really | wants, especially the dev who had an idea for a game that has | been co-opted into something very different by their | "customers". | | I am not saying devs shouldn't get feedback, I just don't | think they should be taking feedback from EVERYONE. | | Personally if I ever wanted to release a game I would never | have a public discord where people could contact me. Would I | have a private discord where some other indie devs I know are | invited for feedback and play testing? Absolutely. But, I | wouldn't just let anyone in there. | axus wrote: | Game devs can engage and have a back-and-forth, without | incorporating anything into the game. It's socializing and | information-sharing to grow an audience, not a | collaborative effort. | ricardo81 wrote: | Seems to be the case with many resurrected franchises, Star | Trek coming to mind. | | As a kid in the 80s/early 90s, games and series like these | caught my imagination. They were fun. Probably fun, interesting | and inspiring in different ways to different people. | | Agree if we listened to everyone's refined version, we'd end up | with a different game for everyone. In the end it's only meant | to be entertainment. | Beldin wrote: | In all fairness: there is a difference between the original | creator coming up with his/her own beloved continuation of a | beloved project, and a soulless money grab by leveraging name | recognition with an existing fan base. Irrespective of who is | doing the soulless money grabbing (corporation, original | creator, etc). | | Return to Monkey Island comes across like the former (so | far), various Trek and Wars continue-spinning-off-quels more | like the latter. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-05-03 23:00 UTC)