[HN Gopher] A social analgesic? Acetaminophen (paracetamol) redu... ___________________________________________________________________ A social analgesic? Acetaminophen (paracetamol) reduces positive empathy Author : amichail Score : 81 points Date : 2022-05-04 17:18 UTC (5 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov) (TXT) w3m dump (www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov) | jpmattia wrote: | Psych study with n=114. Given the reproducibility crisis in | psychology, I'll wait for the replication. | raddan wrote: | Sure, do that. But also: | | > The power analysis used a power criterion of (1 - b) = 0.80, | which indicated that a mean cell size of n = 54 was sufficient | to replicate significant effects of acetaminophen. | | The question is not whether n=114 is "large enough" because | that question, by itself, does not make sense. The question is | whether n=114 is "large enough for the observed effect." Given | that the p-values for the "personal pleasure" and "empathetic | feelings" measures are under 0.001, the answer is "yes," | potential methodological issues notwithstanding. | [deleted] | teaearlgrey_hot wrote: | Disagree from experience. I find it far more likely that they | considered how to skew the p-values low enough to where they | become significant. "Personal pleasure" & "Empathetic | feelings" do NOT sound like terms which correlate to | reproducibility to me. | HWR_14 wrote: | > "Personal pleasure" & "Empathetic feelings" do NOT sound | like terms which correlate to reproducibility to me. | | All studies that use terms like that have a section that | explains how they are measuring it, how other studies have | used the same measure and how that measure itself is tested | for reproducibility and accuracy. | ngvrnd wrote: | doesn't necessarily mean they are ACTUALLY measuring | anything real. just sayin' | HWR_14 wrote: | So without training in the field, having read about the | specific example or anything else, you can say the entire | study is trash? | amelius wrote: | Scientist: Hey, that's odd ... | | HN reader: I'll wait for the replication. | FastMonkey wrote: | All undergrads from a single university also. Just based on the | social development of people as they go through undergrad, I'd | guess that the variance in behavioural change before and after | treatment is fairly high whether they're treated or not. | snovv_crash wrote: | Just like a lot of pharma papers need a `... in mice` | appended to their titles, a lot of psych papers need `... in | undergrads` appended to theirs. | arcticbull wrote: | There's been a few over the years. | | [1] 2016: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5015806/ | | [2] 2015: | https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/095679761557036... | | [3] 2012: | http://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/releases/broken-hea... | plsbenice34 wrote: | Seems like every time now, when I read a medical study, | especially psychiatry-related, I'm shocked that it could even | be published. I have no training in the field, so nobody would | take me seriously and I even doubt myself, but the study | designs just seem so poor | mattkrause wrote: | I don't think you should sneer at a triple-digit sample size | that's justified with a power analysis based on their previous | work. | | I agree that you'd want to see replications before making any | major decisions--these effects are often finnicky--but this | seems to me like a reasonable-sized step forward. | simulate-me wrote: | They also had a prior justification for running this | experiment based on known effects of Tylenol on the brain. | madrox wrote: | I tend to agree. While I think the sample size is fine, the way | perceived positivity and perceived pleasure were measured seems | pretty subjective in a way I find hard to generalize. | | The paper does seem awfully suggestive, though. Worthy of more | exploration for sure. | throw149102 wrote: | It would be interesting to see a study on whether Tylenol reduces | empathy in people who are sick/in chronic pain. My guess would be | that Tylenol increases empathy in these situations, despite the | general effect it has in reducing empathy. It's hard to empathize | with others when you're in pain yourself. | | Brings about a good question - if you have a headache, and you | take Tylenol, do you become more or less empathetic? If the | answer is you become _more_ empathetic, that indicates that | instead of Tylenol being the bad guy, we should try to reduce the | prevalence of headaches (or pains that cause people to take | Tylenol) in general. | SemanticStrengh wrote: | Is it a pharmacologically relevant acetyl donor btw? | mabbo wrote: | Acetaminophen (paracetamol) is also associated with reductions in | 'social pain'.[0] | | > Thus, acetaminophen reduces behavioral and neural responses | associated with the pain of social rejection, demonstrating | substantial overlap between social and physical pain. | | It's a fascinating idea that social pain and physical pain are so | strongly related. That depression can be viewed as a form of | chronic pain, like a knee that still hurts long after the injury | has healed. | | And perhaps then positive empathy has something to do with | literally feeling the social pain of others- blunt your ability | to feel social pain and you aren't as affected by it. | | [0]https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/095679761037474.. | . | inter_netuser wrote: | That's been known for a long time, possibly centuries. | | morphine was used to treat depression as late as last century, | and probably remains a common folk remedy even today. | bink wrote: | Morphine has more effects than just killing pain, however. It | also provides a euphoric feeling. It's more interesting if a | drug that was until now only known for removing physical pain | can also provide relief for social pain. | colechristensen wrote: | Well yes, there's definitely a reason there are problems with | opiate addictions. | | A differentiation between legal and illegal drugs is the | legal ones poison you before they make you feel particularly | amazing, the illegal ones poison you after. Take way too much | acetaminophen and you get liver failure before you feel | euphoria. | | There are arguments to be made that many illegal drugs are | safer at effective doses but have risks of abuse not present | in the drugs that poison you before abuse is fun. | Terry_Roll wrote: | Depending on "who" you listen to Wild Lettuce is either no | good or its better than morphine without the addiction. | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactuca_virosa | https://erowid.org/plants/lactuca/lactuca.shtml | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactucarium#History | | So with man made chemicals they tend to not break down as | easily, you see this with man made pesticides like | pyrethrin's yet the pyrethrin's in Chrysanthemum do break | down easily, organophosphates (nerve agents at the right | dose) are another group used to dip Sheep in, but might | show up in trace amounts in lanolin based Vit D3 | supplements. | CTDOCodebases wrote: | Aren't emotions just thoughts with a linked physical sensation? | | Why is it so fascinating? | photochemsyn wrote: | Acetaminophen is best avoided in my opinion. Long term liver | damage is a major issue, particularly in conjunction with | alcohol. There's also some evidence it's linked to cancer, and | why take the risk? Ibuprofen (Advil) is probably much preferable | in most cases, though definitely not for long-term chronic pain. | | Long-term chronic pain is one condition where opiates actually | make sense, although studies demonstrate that using cannabis + | opiates allows the opiate dosage to be kept below the addiction | threshold while providing equivalent relief. | robocat wrote: | > There's also some evidence it's linked to cancer | | Isn't everything? I would love to see a site that was more | about the relative risks of cancer. Or even better, that | queries us for our behaviours and then suggests where to spend | our efforts to improve our quality of life, based on well | supported research. | toast0 wrote: | WARNING: Reading this comment is known to the State of | California to cause cancer and birth defects or other | reproductive harm. | geocrasher wrote: | The moral of the story is this: Stay out of California. | _everything_ causes cancer there. | arcticbull wrote: | plane_with_red_dots.jpeg | donclark wrote: | scotty79 wrote: | Conservative views don't come from lack of empathy. They come | from anxiety about your safety. | | You can make liberal more conservative by priming him to think | about his own vulnerability and death and you can make | conservative more liberal by priming him to think of himself as | invulnerable superhero | nsdfg425sf wrote: | donclark wrote: | Paranoid safety peeps eh? | | I would still like to see if there is any data correlation. | [deleted] | spfzero wrote: | You have to suspect that the underlying reason people are taking | a pain reliever in the first place also makes them less | empathetic to others. That could even be a larger effect than the | one found in the study. | | Understand that's controlled for in the OA, just mentioning | another aspect in real-life situations. | moron4hire wrote: | Are you saying that you think people who want relief from their | own pain are people who have reduced empathy toward others? | scotty79 wrote: | It might be that just being in pain yourself can lower your | empathy. For example your body could raise pain threshold a | bit so it's easier for you to suffer your pain which could | cause empathetic pain not to register at all. | Tylenol wrote: | When I can't sleep because my mind is racing, or I am anxious | about something, I take 1000mg of acetaminophen, the stress is | relieved, and within an hour I am asleep. | | When bad things happen to me, or I'm anxious about something, I | take 1000mg of acetaminophen and the stress is quickly blunted. | | Acetaminophen is a miracle drug for psychological pain, and it is | very safe if used occasionally in small doses (as described | above). | robocat wrote: | I take an anti-histamine. They don't usually make me drowsy, | but if I am wake at 3AM and feel too awake, the anti-histamine | is usually enough to push me back to sleep (although it isn't | immediate). | 37ef_ced3 wrote: | Antihistamines like Benadryl are anticholinergics. They are | harmful to the brain and everyone should avoid them. In | contrast acetaminophen is universally considered to be safe | for people with a normal liver. | maccard wrote: | > it is very safe if used occasionally in small doses (as | described above). | | Define occasionally, and small doses. Paracetamol/acetaminophen | is widely considered to be dangerous for a few reasons - | sustained use of "safe" dosages has been shown to have a huge | effect on liver failure [0] - it's regularly found in other | painkiller, cold & flu, decongestant, and antihistamines. - | It's surprisingly ineffective for a large number of people for | lots of different kinds of pain - The dosage that can cause | critical liver damage is _dangerously_ close to the therapeutic | dose. | | [0] https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40264-012-0013-7 | 37ef_ced3 wrote: | Commenter was explicit about dosage and pretty clear about | frequency. A single dose of 1,000 milligrams in a 24 hour | period is indeed small and universally considered to be safe | for people with a normal liver. | brimble wrote: | I use weed for both these cases--shutting my mind up so I can | sleep and/or dulling physical pain in case of illness so I can | sleep, if it doesn't rise to the level of needing/being-able- | to-get serious painkillers, plus (at lower doses, and far less | often) for reducing anxiety during waking hours. | | Works great, wish I'd started years ago. Leaves me much better- | rested in the morning than other prescription sleep aids I've | tried. On nights when I know I'll have a nice 9ish hours | uninterrupted, I pair it with a little melatonin to keep me | from waking up completely if I stir a little after the weed's | worn off, and it's the best damn sleep of my life. | | A+++++ would recommend. Screw you for lying to me, William S. | Sessions. | Timpy wrote: | I don't think 1000mg is a small dose, I'm not a doctor but that | seems like an extra-strength portion to me | daveoc64 wrote: | The standard size of a Paracetamol (as it is known in the | UK[0]) tablet in the UK is 500mg. | | The normal dose is 2 tablets (i.e. 1000mg in total). | | Wait at least 4 hours between doses. | | Don't have more than 4 doses in a 24-hour period. | | Paracetamol is one of the most commonly used medicines in the | UK. | | [0] - https://www.nhs.uk/medicines/paracetamol-for-adults/ | [deleted] | arcticbull wrote: | Acetaminophen has an active dose very close to the lethal | dose, and is the leading cause of acute liver failure in the | United States. While the daily limit is 4000mg, 1000mg is not | un-common in formulations like extra-strength Tylenol. | mattkrause wrote: | The "standard dosage unit" in Canada is 325 mg (for adults), | with extra-strength pills containing 500 or 650 mg. | | 1000 mg is pushing the daily limit (4000 mg, but it's got a | halflife of ~6 hrs, so...) | User23 wrote: | Another drug you might want to consider is Cebocap[1]. It has a | very safe side-effect profile, it's safe for pregnant and | nursing women, and it has been clinically proven to effectively | treat a wide variety of ailments. | | [1] https://www.drugs.com/imprints/forest-707-17216.html | motohagiography wrote: | Sounds like a hack for people with social anxiety as well. | mromanuk wrote: | Recently I read about using paracetamol for social anxiety. | There is a connection. | Broken_Hippo wrote: | Paracetamol and Acetaminophen are the same drug - much of the | world calls it Paracetamol. Different takes on the same | chemical name, though I can't remember the reason for the | difference. I looked it up some years ago when I moved from | the US to Europe. | bencollier49 wrote: | Well yes, if you're a fan of hypogonadism. | | https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5044981/ | https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5789927/ | danachow wrote: | That's quite a leap. One of those is for ibuprofen, which has | virtually no similarities with acetaminophen and the first | one is for a xenograft model - there are tremendous problems | with getting carried away with that result as you seem to | have done. | rybosworld wrote: | That second link seems to suggest the effect in adults is | very minimal. | nrdgrrrl wrote: | midislack wrote: | Empathy must be stored in the liver which Tylenol also destroys. | ipnon wrote: | Pain is psychosomatic. A broken heart physically hurts, and a | broken bone will ruin your mood. A similar result was found in | parents with opiate abuse disorder, they were less likely to | notice negative emotional states when shown pictures of children | in various moods. I don't think this result is concerning except | for people who are taking NSAIDs on a daily basis for long | periods of time. | threads2 wrote: | It also reduces compensatory affirmation: | | The Common Pain of Surrealism and Death: Acetaminophen Reduces | Compensatory Affirmation Following Meaning Threats | | https://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~heine/docs/2013%20Acetaminophen%2... | | > They ... watched a 4-min clip from the short film Rabbits, | created by David Lynch (2002) | | > acetaminophen interrupts the typical compensatory responses to | meaning threats ... | | > acetaminophen has more far-reaching psychological consequences | than previously realized | | Though not a huge n, n=121. | pagutierrezn wrote: | 2016 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14683173 | | 2020 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25540870 | dang wrote: | Thanks! Macroexpanded: | | _In study, acetaminophen makes risky moves seem less | dangerous_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25540870 - | Dec 2020 (133 comments) | | _Acetaminophen reduces empathy for pain (2016)_ - | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14683173 - July 2017 (93 | comments) | | Others: | | _Prenatal acetaminophen increases autism and ADHD risk 20%_ - | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27362768 - June 2021 (20 | comments) | | _Acetaminophen exposure in pregnancy linked to higher risk of | ADHD, autism: study_ - | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21415078 - Nov 2019 (39 | comments) | | _Acetaminophen use in pregnancy linked to child 's behavioral | problems_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12293675 - Aug | 2016 (84 comments) | | _Acetaminophen may hinder the brain 's error-correction | mechanisms_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11465452 - | April 2016 (56 comments) | | _Acetaminophen and the War on Drugs (2009)_ - | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2211599 - Feb 2011 (58 | comments) | geocrasher wrote: | This explains why some people are so stupid it hurts. | mikkergp wrote: | a "potent" physical painkiller . | | Does anyone know if the word potent here is meant to be | scientific or emotional? It feels emotional, the dictionary | definition is "having great power, influence, or effect." which | seems weird to jump out the gate with such a subjective word for | an over the counter painkiller. | dvh wrote: | I was once taking out trash in the middle of the night and I've | overheard neighbor's conversation: "What's the strongest thing | you have here for headache and if you say Tylenol I'm gonna | kill you!" | dkh wrote: | Another study linking these. The prospect of humans in some | places maybe experiencing different things and making different | decisions than they would've because for a couple generations | everyone has been taking a ton of Tylenol and it reduced | everyone's collective empathy... that is terrifying to me. | ovulationkit wrote: | rapjr9 wrote: | So perhaps acetaminophen (Tylenol) is responsible for the | increasing political divide in the USA and in the world? People | literally care less about each other because their empathy is | being blunted. How long does the effect last? Days at least if I | remember previous reports correctly. There are a LOT of people | using acetaminophen often. If the effect lasted a week would just | one pill a week make you a less caring person? This seems like it | could be a really big deal. | HNHatesUsers wrote: ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-05-04 23:00 UTC)