[HN Gopher] Mercedes-Benz says Level 3 self-driving option ready... ___________________________________________________________________ Mercedes-Benz says Level 3 self-driving option ready to roll Author : mxschumacher Score : 82 points Date : 2022-05-06 19:49 UTC (3 hours ago) (HTM) web link (www.thedetroitbureau.com) (TXT) w3m dump (www.thedetroitbureau.com) | pojzon wrote: | If tesla still has issues with self-driving cars and they are | like a decade if not more ahead of everyone else. | | I dont believe this PR stunt. | chucknthem wrote: | Tesla owner here, have friends that work at Cruise. Tesla is | waaayy behind cruise and waymo on the self driving front. Those | other companies actually have fully driverless cars driving | around San Francisco. Tesla is not even close. | | I think GM will have the best self driving system if they | manage to commercialize the tech cruise built. | B1FF_PSUVM wrote: | "If", as the Spartans famously said to Big Alex's dad. | | Ah, well, let's hope GM manages to comercialize the stuff. | | (The Spartans were undefeated, but became irrelevant and | dwindled, just a past legend for others to wave around as | political advertising. Sic transit ...) | freeflight wrote: | _> I dont believe this PR stunt._ | | PR stunts usually don't come with official regulatory approval, | tho they commonly come with grand promises [0] and the actual | product not living up to them [1] | | [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-53418069 | | [1] https://www.vice.com/en/article/3aqevk/the-government-is- | fin... | qeternity wrote: | Wow. Or Tesla are the real masters of the PR stunt, and are not | a decade ahead of everyone. | | _EDIT_ I watched this comment drop from 15 pts to 5 pts. The | Elon apologists are out in full force. | wollsmoth wrote: | Maybe LIDAR is more useful than Tesla thought. | simondotau wrote: | What mistakes is FSD beta currently making that would be | solved with more accurate localisation of the vehicle? Are | you aware of any situations where mistakes are being made as | a result of errors in depth estimation? | | Seriously, look at any FSD beta video and you'll quickly | recognise that its ability to sense the road is mature and | robust; most errors are in the planner. | smileysteve wrote: | > they are like a decade if not more ahead of everyone else. | | Mercedes has been investing radar since the Tesla Roadster. | They are ahead of Tesla when for European regulation. | martin8412 wrote: | Tesla and Elon Musk are lying through their teeth every option | they get. | | They can't even detect stationary emergency vehicles ffs.. | | Mercedes is accepting liability whenever their self driving | system is engaged, meaning their insurance is on the hook. So I | think they're pretty damn certain that it will work as | intended. | 01100011 wrote: | In my uninformed estimation, I think Elon, like a lot of us | 7-8 years ago, saw the recent advances in deep learning and | figured they'd be capable of anything in a few years. You | just need to scale them up and train the shit out of them and | out pops self driving. Some of us have since repented but | Tesla made too many promises so they've got to keep pushing | that narrative or they become just another car company. | jjtheblunt wrote: | or tesla made a bad engineering decision that stalled progress? | myko wrote: | Tesla seems way behind companies like Waymo | | It's all marketing hype, I say this as a Model S owner with FSD | shoulderfake wrote: | verisimi wrote: | "Oh no! You didn't pay your road tax. So that you don't lose the | opportunity to defend yourself, the car will drive you to your | local police station so you can represent yourself." | | "Oh no! Your passenger has been identified, and has a warrant for | his arrest. To prevent you being charged with aiding and abetting | a felon, we will drive you to your local police station." | | Etc. | amelius wrote: | What I don't get: if deep learning can recognize a crosswalk with | 99.99% accuracy, that's very impressive. Yet it is not enough. | vanviegen wrote: | Do human drivers spot crosswalks in time with higher accuracy? | That seems very unlikely to me. | | Still, as long as the driver (human or otherwise) sees the | pedestrian and vice versa, an accident can usually be avoided, | with perhaps some angry shouting. | bastawhiz wrote: | I can imagine this being at least two orders of magnitude | higher than most human drivers (one in ten thousand misses | versus one in one hundred). How many orders of magnitude better | does it need to be before it's good enough? | robonerd wrote: | Missing one in a hundred intersections? That's insane. Most | human drivers are much better than that and wouldn't keep | their license (or their life) for long if they weren't. | everyone wrote: | Is it still designed to mow down pedestrians? | | https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15344706/self-driving-mer... | | Mercedes ethics: Save the people who can afford lawyers. | freeflight wrote: | Usually no pedestrians running around on the autobahn, for | which this system is intended for. | everyone wrote: | Their plan (as it was in 2016) is to eventually have full | self driving everywhere. Presumably the fundamental decisions | they make now will carry forward. | rootusrootus wrote: | That's such a ridiculous problem to worry about. Humans don't | try to solve the trolley problem, either, I don't know why we | suddenly expect computers to be able to do it. | | The real answer is actually simple, and it's basically the same | advice for human drivers: stop the car, however you can. Don't | try to swerve, don't get clever, just dynamite the brakes and | hope for the best. Or as they say on the race track "both | pedals in!" | | Anything else is foolishness. I think magazines just like to | talk about it because it makes people click. | everyone wrote: | Your argument works both ways. Lets say a truck is driving on | the wrong side of the road and is going to flatten the | mercedes (not too uncommon as truck drivers seem to be crazy | and will overtake each other). Lets say it's possible to | swerve onto the footpath and squash some pedestrians in order | to avoid the truck. A human driver wont be solving the | trolley problem here and will probably just die. It sounds | Mercedes goal is for the car to save the driver and kill the | pedestrians in this situation. | rootusrootus wrote: | Read what the Mercedes guy actually said, though. Swerving | is bad, because it in no way guarantees a better result, | and increases the risk substantially of making things | _worse_. Any tire grip you use to swerve isn 't being used | to stop, and the best way to minimize damage to the car, | and by extension risk to the occupant, is to get kinetic | energy as low as possible and rely on the safety cage for | the rest. | | The magazine writer frames it as "Mercedes is making a | choice in the trolley problem, and that choice is the | driver" as if that's actually a decision being made, | instead of the entirely expected result of trying to slow | the car enough that regular safety systems are likely to | save the life of the driver. Mercedes is doing the | _opposite_ of trying to solve the trolley problem, they 're | declaring it pointless to try. | | It's much more plausible to get the car into the "driver is | very unlikely to die" kinetic range than it is to get it | down to "pedestrian is very unlikely to die." | | So, back to your hypothetical -- the Mercedes won't be | swerving for the pedestrians, because that'll statistically | increase the risk to the driver. The car may very well | still get hit by that truck, but now it'll be on the driver | side instead of the front crumple zone. And who knows what | else happens after the car becomes ballistic because it | collided with something. | NovemberWhiskey wrote: | Although it's pretty clear you don't care about an answer to | your question - it's only designed to operate on highways. | everyone wrote: | Their plan (as it was in 2016) is to eventually have full | self driving everywhere. Presumably the fundamental decisions | they make now will carry forward. | rootusrootus wrote: | Is there a map somewhere that discloses which roads it will be | permitted on? | lesgobrandon wrote: | mdoms wrote: | > Tesla CEO Elon Musk said during a recent conference call with | investors he expects to have a "Level Four" system ready by the | end of 2022 | | How are people still listening to this clown? | glaucon wrote: | People love to follow people. | scrozier wrote: | I own a Model 3 and love it. But you're 100% right: the "full | self driving" claim Musk/Tesla has been making for years is | bizarre. I live in a major city and have never had a trip using | FSD where I didn't have to take control multiple times. At | times, updates seem to make it get worse. Simple example, on a | highway, it can't even keep the car in the middle of the lane | through moderate curves. It almost always drifts to the | outside, sometimes onto or over the lane marker. And I know | it's doing this because I can watch it on the display, so the | car clearly knows it's not centered. Surely this should be a | trivial task (as self-driving tasks go). | simondotau wrote: | You are quoting someone who is egregiously misquoting and | misunderstanding what Elon said in that recent earnings call. | What he actually said: | | _Of any technology development I've ever been involved in, | I've never really seen more false dawns, or where it seems like | we're going to break through but we don't as I've seen in full | self-driving. And ultimately what it comes down to is that to | solve full self-driving, you actually have to solve real world | artificial intelligence. Which nobody has solved. The whole | road system is made for biological neural nets and eyes. And so | actually, when you think about it, in order to solve full self- | driving, we have to solve neural nets and cameras to a degree | of a capability that is on par with, and will really exceeds | humans. And I think we will achieve that this year. The best | way to reach your own assessment is to join the Tesla full | self-driving beta program. We have over 100,000 people right | now enrolled in that program. And we expect to broaden that | significantly this year. So that's my recommendation is join | the full self-driving beta program, and experience it for | yourself. And take note of the rate of improvement with every | release. And we put out a new release roughly every two weeks. | And you'll see a little bit of two steps forward, one step | back. But overall, the rate of improvement is incredibly quick. | So that's my recommendation for reaching your own assessment | is, literally try it._ | ksubedi wrote: | What most people here complaining about the "40 mph" limit do not | realize is that below 40mph is where it's hardest to implement | proper self driving, as majority of below 40mph driving will be | in city streets with pedestrians, frequent turns and more | variables. Anything higher will generally be in highways where | lane assist cruise control systems are already more than good | enough. | | I will gladly take a system that can drive itself confidently | under 40mph in city, and use basic lane assist (and maybe lane | changes and exit ramps like in Teslas) for highways. Cant wait! | lorenzfx wrote: | While the specs sound very underwhelming at first (geo-fenced on | some roads, very low speeds, no bad weather), they seem to be so | confident in their system, that they will take responsibility for | the car when in autopilot. AFAIK, no other manufacturer does this | for their systems (which capabilities they often make rather wild | claims about). | 369548684892826 wrote: | > they will take responsibility for the car when in autopilot | | This probably just means autopilot gets disengaged just before | impact | davidvarela_us wrote: | few things inspire confidence like companies putting their | literal money where their mouth is | slg wrote: | But haven't we all seen Fight Club? It isn't a question a | confidence, it is a question of financial math. | | This decision tells us nothing about the safety of the | Mercedes system compared to its competitors. All it tells us | is that adding these limitations to ensure the system is only | used in the safest possible scenarios makes taking over | liability more reasonable. That isn't surprising. Their | competitors' systems are also very safe if used in this | manner. The only difference is that the competitors are not | satisfied with releasing a system with enough limitations | that it only works in stop-and-go highway traffic in clear | weather. It is that added functionality that is more | dangerous and the reason other manufacturers don't take on | liability. | | Odds are the marketing and accounting wings of Mercedes had | just as much if not more influence on this decision than the | tech team. | I_DRINK_KOOLAID wrote: | > This decision tells us nothing about the safety of the | Mercedes system compared to its competitors | | Mercedes is just taking notice that grandstanding and PR | worked for Tesla, so they are doing the same thing. | | Everybody who is serious about this knows that unless you | get Level 5 it's all just grandstanding. | | Level 5 won't come from unleashing Level 3 into the world | and throwing deers , cyclists and pedestrians at it | (hopefully not literally). | | It's just a weird hill that brainpower and capital decided | to die on. Deaths on the road are tragic but airbags, | seatbelts and ultimately bigger cars and lower alcohol | intake is something practical, whereas Level 5 is something | like a pie-in-the-sky thing | upbeat_general wrote: | I don't know how you came to this conclusion. | | Level 4 is a serious goal that provides very useful | benefits. | moralestapia wrote: | >But haven't we all seen Fight Club? | | ??? | thematrixturtle wrote: | http://inaneexplained.blogspot.com/2011/03/fight-club- | car-re... | | TL;DR; If there's a defect that kills or maims people, | car manufacturers compute if it's cheaper to recall or | just deal with the lawsuits. | | And this happens regularly: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsafe_at_Any_Speed | idoh wrote: | There's always a tradeoff between cost and safety, how | else would you imagine this to work? | mirntyfirty wrote: | Have you seen the movie, if I remember the scene | correctly Norton discusses the financial incentives | leading to auto product recalls. I don't think this is | accurate in real life although Boeing hasn't inspired | much confidence. | BolexNOLA wrote: | >I don't think this is accurate in real life | | Ehhhh I mean they often don't say the quiet part out loud | but many companies definitely run a variation of the | equation he describes. | jerf wrote: | https://youtu.be/SiB8GVMNJkE | Hamuko wrote: | What about legal? As in, if I'm being driven around my | Mercedes-Benz while watching a movie on my phone and something | happens, am I not gonna get fucked by the cops? | lima wrote: | In Germany, the law was changed to account for this. | | There are limits - while you can watch a movie, you have to | be ready to take over within ten seconds. | ghaff wrote: | Absent legal/regulatory changes/waivers, the fact that MB is | offering to cover financial liabilities would seem to be | pretty much irrelevant to legal liabilities. So basically | "we'll cover your costs" is pretty much irrelevant if you | want to drive in a manner that would normally be considered | reckless. | | But there's talk of certification so this may be taken into | account. One would of course want to see specifics. | nradov wrote: | That would depend on the exact laws in particular | jurisdictions where you might operate the vehicle. In some | areas, law enforcement could cite you for using a phone even | if the manufacturer had taken on the civil liability. Longer | term some of those laws will probably change as Level 3 | autonomous vehicles start to become more common. | mhh__ wrote: | Confident but limited is probably how the German manufacturers | describe most of their cars (although I think mercedes do at | least some of their driverless in the USA) | Traster wrote: | Just from a management perspective, even if you're super- | confident in your engineers (which you shouldn't be), doing | anything other than a very limited slow roll out would be | negligent. This is a tectonic shift in liability. It's one | thing if you sell 1,000,000 cars and 100,000 get in an | accident. It's actually much worse to sell 10,000 cars and | 1,000 of them get in an accident _and the company is liable_. | a-dub wrote: | there should be a qualification level for vehicles that can fully | self drive at low speeds in heavy traffic on the highway so you | can nap through traffic jams and then later enjoy your | performance automobile by driving it yourself when it's clear. | | half the point of fancy cars is that they're fun to drive. | MBCook wrote: | I think that may be level 4, but I'm not sure. | a-dub wrote: | it appears you're correct... but it is a much easier problem | and one that i argue has massive bang for the buck _today_. | | robotaxis will probably happen at scale some day. but for | now, "nap through bad traffic mode" would be pretty excellent | both in terms of safety and utility. | MBCook wrote: | Phantom traffic jams are so common, where things aren't | moving as fast as they should because people keep slamming | on their brakes and scaring the people behind them (who in | turn do the same). Even if the original reason was good I | imagine it makes a lot of real life traffic jams worse. | | But if the cars are all driving themselves, wouldn't they | avoid that? I wonder if traffic jams would get smaller just | from the lack of that one issue. | a-dub wrote: | yeah, i've daydreamed about that. if enough cars opt in | you could implement cooperative flow control algorithms. | | i think this has already been shown to help with advisory | lane specific speed limits that are common in some parts | of europe and the us. (the lit adaptive per lane speed | limit signs that appear every mile or two.) | | even a few vehicles that drive intelligently in traffic | could potentially have huge effects. | | and i'll say it again: why buy a fun vehicle like a tesla | or a benz if you're just going to have the computer drive | it in a way that the manufacturer's legal team is | comfortable with? | | unless, of course, you're stuck in traffic. then let the | lawyers drive and take a nap. | 11thEarlOfMar wrote: | Seems like we need to re-run the DARPA Grand Challenge. | | Local car clubs should be happy to work together to define a | route and run the race. | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2AcMnfzpNg | Havoc wrote: | What exactly is this "internationally valid certification" | they're banging on about and how is it the first? | gzer0 wrote: | > Drive Pilot can only be engaged on a certain highways, and the | car must not exceed 40 miles per hour. | | > The system will only operate during the daytime, in reasonably | clear weather, and without overhead obstructions. Inclement | weather, construction zones, tunnels, and emergency vehicles will | all trigger a handover warning [1]. | | There's a _very_ limited subset of areas that one would be able | to use this. | | [1] https://cleantechnica.com/2022/03/23/mercedes-will-be- | legall... | jzz wrote: | Mercedes system seems as capable as my 2002 Nissan's cruise | control. | lifeisstillgood wrote: | For me the corollary of this ("you just invented a more expensive | railway") is the business model assumptions that go away. Long | distance trucking is still a likely winner, but there is still | the "last mile / last off ramp". | | None of the business models touted today survive the new railway | problem. That's not to say it's not a valuable technology - it's | just we cannot whistle up a human shaped robot that just does | what we want. | | In the same way a machine is shaped by its function, our cities | and infrastructure green will be shaped by their function. | | Disneyland is built one level up, so that all the service tunnels | (with I am sure some self driving robots) can get around without | getting in the way of people. Whatever we rebuild our (climate | neutral) cities to be, i think less surface space given to | transport will be high | henrikschroder wrote: | Meanwhile at Tesla: "We're the industry leaders, wait for us!" | LightG wrote: | "Our leader of all things FSD is on sabbatical, please bare | with us" | 01100011 wrote: | Hey, they've had self driving ready to go next year since | 2014(https://youtu.be/o7oZ-AQszEI). | | Why so cynical? :) | wyldfire wrote: | > Mercedes-Benz Cars says it plans to release "Drive Pilot," a | conditionally automated Level 3 system for automated driving | | I think it's pretty irresponsible to publish a picture of a | driver taking his eyes off the road to play Tetris on a system | designed for Level 3. | MBCook wrote: | "Level 3 autonomous driving, as defined by SAE International, | means that the driver can hand over control to the vehicle, but | must be ready to take over when prompted" (from an EU car site) | | At level 3 the driver no longer has to constantly monitor the | road, but they can't exactly go to sleep because they need to | be ready to take over in a few seconds. | | Given that the image seems reasonable. | microtherion wrote: | In the specific case of the Mercedes-Benz system, if the | driver does not take over in a timely manner, the car will | find a safe place to come to a stop, activate the emergency | lights, and unlock the doors, so you'd probably live even if | you _did_ fall asleep: https://group.mercedes- | benz.com/documents/innovation/other/2... | SheinhardtWigCo wrote: | Not if the system is designed to achieve a minimal risk | condition by itself or give the driver sufficient warning to | take over. Level 3 includes systems that can handle an | emergency situation but require the driver to respond within | some limited time. | freeflight wrote: | That's pretty much the definition of level 3; | | _> In certain situations, the driver can turn attention away | from the road, but most always be ready to take full control | again._ | | https://www.blickfeld.com/blog/levels-of-autonomous-driving/ | KaoruAoiShiho wrote: | This is powered by nvidia i think: | https://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2021/04/16/mercedes-benz-eqs-h... | | This means if mercedes have it, so will many other automakers | since nvidia sells to everyone. | [deleted] | Youden wrote: | The linked blog post seems to show off hardware but the | software is all Mercedes, no? In that case automakers wouldn't | be able to buy the self-driving capability from NVIDIA. | riotnrrd wrote: | NVIDIA has a large autonomous vehicle software team and | releases public products (such as Driveworks: | https://developer.nvidia.com/drive/driveworks) as well as | custom products for specific clients. | _jal wrote: | We have a cage in a data center right next to Nvidia's main | campus. There's a redlight right at the lot entrance. Twice | I've watched their robots drive onto the street and stop in | the intersection, seemingly too indecisive to do anything. | | Last time was several months ago, can't remember if it was | this year or last. I have no major point to make, it just | amused me. | mhh__ wrote: | With these press releases they can mean anything from "It's our | tech but rebadged" to "We sold them a CAD program" so not | always clear. | gitfan86 wrote: | "it's geofenced to certain roads, and only work under 40mph", " | you should not use this in the rain" | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMNnOosjrBo&ab_channel=Engad... | verisimi wrote: | > "Geofenced" | | That's the word. That's the plan. We will be geofenced, there | will be a kill switch. You will not be able to go where you | want, except if the government allows it. | | In fact, I think Uber is the best example of geofencing we have | for the long run. In the medium term, self-driving cars you | still own will fill the gap. | QuercusMax wrote: | You're making a pretty big leap there from "our experimental | self-driving mode only works inside the geofence" to "the | government won't let you drive where you want". | verisimi wrote: | Yes, a huge leap. I can't possibly imagine that government | would pass legislation that all the automakers would comply | with. /s | | https://www.musclecarsandtrucks.com/biden-infrastructure- | bil... | | "Deep within the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act | that was signed into law by President Joe Biden is a | passage that will require automakers to begin including | what can be best summarized as a "vehicle kill switch" | within the operating software of new cars, which is | described in the bill as "advanced drunk and impaired | driving prevention technology". The measure has been | positioned as a safety tool to help prevent drunk driving, | and by 2026 (three years after the enactment of the Act, | per the text) the kill switch could be mandated on every | new car sold in the United States. Then there's the broader | reaching RIDE Act, which we'll touch on in a moment." | verisimi wrote: | I'm being downvoted - but this is the reality of what | will happen. Who wants that sort of monitoring when they | are driving? | | Is this a consumer-driven feature? Or is this more | government management - leveraging technology to micro- | manage every detail of our lives - only allowing good | citizens travel privileges etc? | | We are sleep walking into a dystopia, and I get downvoted | for stating the obvious! Seriously - your government is | about managing you, saying what you are and aren't | allowed to do, extracting taxes, fines and licensing fees | from you - its not there to help! | | PS I _was_ being downvoted, but now I 'm back up... It | was right what I wrote it! | pigtailgirl wrote: | Maybe some people just agree with this? | | (a) Findings.--Congress finds that-- | (1) alcohol-impaired driving fatalities represent | approximately \1/3\ of all highway fatalities in the | United States each year; | (2) in 2019, there were 10,142 alcohol-impaired driving | fatalities in the United States involving drivers with a | blood alcohol concentration level of .08 or | higher, and 68 percent of the crashes that | resulted in those fatalities involved a driver | with a blood alcohol concentration level of .15 or | higher; (3) the estimated | economic cost for alcohol-impaired driving | in 2010 was $44,000,000,000; | (4) according to the Insurance Institute for Highway | Safety, advanced drunk and impaired driving | prevention technology can prevent more than | 9,400 alcohol-impaired driving fatalities | annually; and (5) to ensure the | prevention of alcohol-impaired driving | fatalities, advanced drunk and impaired driving | prevention technology must be standard | equipment in all new passenger motor | vehicles. (b) Definitions.--In | this section: (1) Advanced drunk and | impaired driving prevention technology.--The | term ``advanced drunk and impaired driving | prevention technology'' means a system that-- | (A) can-- (i) passively | monitor the performance of a | driver of a motor vehicle to accurately identify | whether that driver may be impaired; and | (ii) prevent or limit motor vehicle operation | if an impairment is detected; (B) | can-- | | [[Page 135 STAT. 832]] | (i) passively and accurately detect whether | the blood alcohol concentration of a driver of a | motor vehicle is equal to or greater than the | blood alcohol concentration described in section | 163(a) of title 23, United States Code; and | (ii) prevent or limit motor vehicle operation | if a blood alcohol concentration above the legal | limit is detected; or (C) is a | combination of systems described in | subparagraphs (A) and (B). | rglullis wrote: | The "right" way to fix this is by reducing car-dependency | - better public transit outside of metro areas, less | subsidies to gasoline, taxing car makers to cover for | externalities - and not by instituting policies that can | be used against law-abiding people. | verisimi wrote: | I think its possible to make an argument for lots of | things, in the name of safety. That it should be | impossible to have anonymity online, etc because of child | abuse, or terrorism, or some other action. | | The safety argument cannot balance the fact that we also | need freedom of speech and thought. We are heading into a | world where the power balance is going to become so | wildly asymmetrical - the government will know everything | about you and will have the power to act against you | instantly, automatically - it will change us. It will be | dehumanising - you will have to watch your back. If you | don't already. | | We will have to conform to have a job, be able to travel, | receive our govcoin vouchers, etc. | | We are literally installing an even worse citizen score | system than China, that no one would ever want, but each | step of the way we are convinced by some spurious and | limited 'safety' argument. This misses the whole picture. | | And if you think that the government won't act against | you once it has the power to do so, you are dreaming. | Everyone seems to think that government is a force for | good, as opposed to being the operators of the slavery | system we find ourselves in. Some of us try to kid | ourselves that we are free, while we hand over 40% of our | income for government to service the interest on the debt | that they have accrued on our behalf. I don't. | | Anyway - I say what I see, no one likes my message, | everyone seems blind to the points I raise, or wants to | ignore them - what can I do? I hope I'm wrong. | pigtailgirl wrote: | you might be right you might be wrong - however I suspect | you'll find there are many of us out here who are just | not willing to let ourselves get so worked up about such | a ridged view of a _possible future_ - doubt you 'll find | many on HN who are not ignorant to the signs - i'm | certain many are concerned about the trends - that | doesn't meant people necessarily disagree with your | thought - we just may disagree with your outlook - myself | - i'm inclined to believe I - my friends- and fine folks | like you are thoughtful enough to deal with it in the | moment - even if that took a civil war - i'm not inclined | to believe at some point i am going to lose touch with | reality - nor am i inclined to believe my government is | going to turn against me without noticing - for what it's | worth i don't think you need to take it so personally - | lots of people are concerned - just not everyone is | freaking out (yet)- maybe you can somehow make peace with | that? :=) | jjulius wrote: | Additional Context: | | https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-402773429497 | wfhordie wrote: | Saving his comment for whenever the punishment for a DUI | post-license reinstatement is a "temporary geo-fence on | where the car can travel". | | "But I'm not a drunk!" | | Saving this comment for when the NHSTA recommends hard cut | offs for speed based on the posted speed limit. | | "Who cares? It's safer that way." | | Saving this comment for when cities start geofencing to | reduce congestion. | | "Well... I don't live in a big city." | | Saving this comment for when insurance companies demand | geofencing for regions unless you pay extra to travel | outside your zone | | "Well I don't travel out of state anyway, discount for me!" | | Saving this comment for when the next civil unrest happens | and the government implements geofencing temporarily to | "restore peace" | | "Well they shouldn't be rioting." | | I'm saving this comment. You won't come back here to | respond. But I'm saving this comment because all the evil | shit you can think of this being used for is coming, and | it's coming to China first. I won't say I told you so -- | you don't me, I don't know you, and we'll never speak to | each other in person. But I hope you remember the pretty | big leap, and that pretty big leaps often happen in many | smaller leaps. | rglullis wrote: | Sir, this is a Wendy's. | [deleted] | [deleted] | arcticbull wrote: | > You will not be able to go where you want, except if the | government allows it. | | Sounds like in your model Elon will be the one deciding where | you can and cannot go. | glaucon wrote: | Don't worry, at least in a Tesla the geofencing is going to | be disabled in datetime.now().year + 1 | kube-system wrote: | Breadth of operating conditions is a trade off with reliability | of operation. It's possible to do a lot of things okay, or a | couple things perfectly, but not yet possible to do a lot of | things perfectly. | | When you remove the driver from the equation, the requirement | for reliability goes up. | | There's going to come a day when Tesla is forced to make | difficult decisions about their "FSD" system. They're either | going to be requiring human supervision for a long time, or | they're going to have to start pulling features. | | I'm glad to see other manufacturers taking a different approach | and actually start working on features good enough to qualify | for SAE level 3 operation. | na85 wrote: | If you think Teslas driven by fleeing fugitives, OJ Simpson | style, can't be remotely commandeered or disabled, then I have | a bridge to sell you. | | Geofencing is a big part of the dystopia that the Valley crowd | is getting paid a small fortune to shove down our throats. | [deleted] | filoleg wrote: | > If you think Teslas driven [...] can't be remotely | commandeered or disabled, then I have a bridge to sell you. | | I wonder how this is even remotely possible, given that | Teslas can easily operate fully offline (which they | frequently do in areas with poor cell reception). You can | just build a small faraday cage encasing the modem so that it | cannot receive signal, and you are good to go. | | Also, I don't think that the drivetrain subsystem and the | subsystem that is connected to the internet can even interop. | I know for a fact that even if the main computer (the one | that is connected to the big screen) on a tesla is rebooting | or shutting off, you can still operate the car like usual. | another_story wrote: | The point they're making is that this is coming and the | groundwork is already being laid, both legally and | technologically. | loueed wrote: | Wondering how would they prevent the faraday cage | solution? I guess the OEM could disable the car if it | cant phone home but surely that would lead to accidents | e.g. blocking the modem while driving. | gitfan86 wrote: | OJ Simpson, the man that the police forced to stop fleeing | under threat of deadly violence? | | Are you trying to scare people that their car may be | disabled, when those same people already live in a society | where police shoot and kill and pit maneuver drivers? | | Wouldn't you rather have the car stop safely, instead of | being pit maneuvered and flipped into a ditch? | mtlynch wrote: | _OJ Simpson, the man that the police forced to stop fleeing | under threat of deadly violence?_ | | That didn't happen. Police followed OJ for 50 miles and | ultimately let him drive safely to his house. | | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/O._J._Simpson_murder_case#B | r... | gitfan86 wrote: | The LAPD had killed plenty of people who didn't comply | with their orders at that point. It is completely | unrealistic to think that the LAPD wouldn't have used | violence against OJ, if he had tried to flee to Mexico. | na85 wrote: | >Are you trying to scare people that their car may be | disabled, when those same people already live in a society | where police shoot and kill and pit maneuver drivers? | | Scare? No. | | I'm just pointing out that, just as pervasive corporate | surveillance is now the norm on the internet, pervasive | tracking and always-on kill switches for cars will soon | become the new norm. Law enforcement will paint it exactly | as you have done here, with all the pearl-clutching and | "think of the children"-type arguments that always | accompany a new overstep/affront against civil liberties. | gitfan86 wrote: | Are you suggesting we shouldn't think of the children? | na85 wrote: | I think you know perfectly well what my point is and | you're being deliberately obstinate. | throwaway1777 wrote: | The idea that this is the "valley crowd" is laughable. Most | of this bs is not built in the valley, and most people in the | Bay Area don't like that kind of dystopia either. | na85 wrote: | >Most of this bs is not built in the valley, and most | people in the Bay Area don't like that kind of dystopia | either. | | Well, certainly it's Bay Area companies leading the charge | towards said dystopia. Google and Facebook come immediately | to mind as far as villains in this particular plot. | daenz wrote: | I wonder if 40mph is a magic number that is a good tradeoff | between speed and survivability (and injury-related out-of- | court settlements) | fweimer wrote: | It's translated from 60 kph. Apparently, the current system | is restricted to German highways. Those are limited to | vehicles which can go at least as fast as 60 kph, and this | might be where this number comes from. It's basically the | slowest highway speed at which there is no controversy about | legality. Targeting highways first makes sense from a | complexity and data quality perspective. | | Although driving at 60 kph on German highways seems quite | risky; at that speed, most trucks will overtake you. | IfOnlyYouKnew wrote: | I doubt this reasoning. While it's true that 60 kph is the | minimum for Autobahn, it's the minimum in the sense that | the vehicle must be capable of that speed. There is no | requirement to actually drive 60 kph or faster. | | On the other side of the equation, nobody would feel | comfortable cruising along at that speed, since you'd be | continuously overtaken by trucks, which drive a little more | than the allowed 80 kph unless it's physically impossible. | sjcoles wrote: | Has to do with the limitations of radar. Radar will fail | >40mph for stopped vehicles or detect them too late to stop. | Honda and Tesla are working to remove radars and go vision | only for speed control. | | If you have a car with a AEB or CMBS (automatic emergency | braking, crash mitigation braking system) the owners manual | has a ton of fine print about it only making crashes less | severe, not preventing them outright. | rootusrootus wrote: | I imagine there are a couple reasons that boil down at some | point to kinetic energy. Stopping distance goes up pretty | quickly, there's a huge difference between, say, 40mph and | 60mph. | bryanlarsen wrote: | That threshold is generally considered to be 20mph. Below | that speed pedestrian injuries are unlikely to be fatal. | | It's what urban speed limits are in Sweden, and they average | about one pedestrian death a year in the entire country. | Closi wrote: | 20mph is considered to be good for survivability, but is | not really good from a speed/travel perspective. | | I believe OP meant maybe 40mph is a good balance between | the two factors of speed (higher is better) and | survivability (higher is better) from a corporate risk / | insurance perspective. | | Raising one of these lowers the other - so the actual | threshold depends on how you value speed / convenience vs | accident survivability / risk, and what you want to market | your car as able to do (few consumers will see a 20mph | self-drive speed limit as a viable self driving system). | throwmeariver1 wrote: | Yeah, look up some videos of Teslas Autopilot in the rain... | it's not pretty. | freeflight wrote: | Restrictions that very much make sense given the usage | scenario; Stop and go traffic on highways. | halotrope wrote: | Meanwhile in Jerusalem | | https://youtu.be/pDyMzz8HMIc | runetech wrote: | Wow. That was pretty convincing. Thanks for sharing. | halotrope wrote: | Agreed. It should be kept in mind that Mobileye solution has | not really seen a wide rollout and scrutiny yet. One can be | optimistic considering that the CEO Amnon Shashua is known | for a very careful and responsible conduct compared to e.g | Tesla. This apparently let to them having a falling out | because Tesla overpromised on the old stack selling it as | "Autopilot" when it was L2 at best. Which resulted in them | doing FSD from scratch after Mobileye cancelled the | collaboration after a deathly accident. At least this seems | to be the semi-official account of things. | anikan_vader wrote: | The car pulls out and immediately fails to yield to two | pedestrians at a crosswalk at 0:54. One of the pedestrians is | in the crosswalk. | Hamuko wrote: | The car did have the right of way though, as the crosswalk | had a red light on. As to why one of the pedestrians decided | to stand in middle of the road during a red light, I have no | idea. | robonerd wrote: | That might be the way it works in Israel, but it's not a | safe way to drive even if the law permits it. In Washington | state, every intersection is a crosswalk whether or not | it's marked, and you have to stop for any pedestrian | crossing an intersection whether or not the light says the | pedestrian can be there. | | I hope these car companies get local laws right. But it | would be best if they did the safe thing even if local laws | didn't require it. | Hamuko wrote: | It's not a safe way to walk either, and I don't know | where walking against a red light is legal. | aeyes wrote: | It also has a traffic light so I guess this isn't a crosswalk | where the car has to yield. The pedestrian isn't really in | the crosswalk, there is a yellow dashed line. | | Very confusing but I guess: Different countries, different | rules. | | 1:44 is also confusing, no signs at all so the car should | yield to the car coming from the right. | | 3:35 looks dangerous, pulling left into the scooter. | | 10:00 he says that it is very challenging to drive in | Jerusalem and that you can drive everywhere if you can do it | there. I haven't seen anything challenging up to this point | in the video, all roads are clearly marked, no potholes, | almost no traffic, lots of signs. This looks very easy to me. | Hamuko wrote: | 1:44 might have a yield sign behind the no entry sign. | Looking at Google Maps, it might be 16 HaMatmid Alley, and | in the 2011 Street View photos there appears to be a yield | sign behind the no entry sign. | colinmhayes wrote: | Just like a real person :) | faebi wrote: | It's nice to see a self driving car in European conditions. All | the Tesla FSD videos feel like they lack some complexity and | depth. I do wonder how Tesla would perform in these conditions. | sebmellen wrote: | ny mshvkn` | mtmail wrote: | Google translate: "I'm convinced" | freeflight wrote: | Kind of skeptical about how all the shots are only from night- | drives, probably when traffic is the lowest. | | Didn't Tesla release a somewhat similar video, showing a Tesla | driving across the US? | halotrope wrote: | Agreed. They plan roll out Robotaxis in Germany and Israel | this year. We will have to wait for third parties to verify | the performance. There is another Video from NY last year | that had a bit more traffic. | | https://youtu.be/50NPqEla0CQ ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-05-06 23:00 UTC)