[HN Gopher] Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes inc...
___________________________________________________________________
Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish
tendencies
Author : matthewheath
Score : 172 points
Date : 2022-05-08 17:18 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.bbc.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.bbc.com)
| dmje wrote:
| It's so typical of the rapid, results-oriented, outcome-focused
| world that we live in that McMindfulness has dashed into the
| forefront of popularity; oh look, I'll just ignore the last 2500
| years of learning and sit on a cushion for 20 minutes a day for 6
| months and, bang, I'm enlightened!
|
| Meditation is not about meditation. It's not about your time that
| you're on the cushion. Any good teacher points this out again and
| again. Meditation is about life, it's about Metta, it's about
| understanding your place in the world. It isn't about progress,
| or happiness, or being calm. It isn't a fad, to be dropped for
| something different when that becomes the next popular thing on
| Instagram. It's deeper than that, more central, more vibrant,
| longer, simpler - but harder! This is a journey of a lifetime,
| not a happy pill.
|
| The whole context is stacked full of nuance - which, to be fair,
| the article stresses time and time again. Set and setting are
| slap in the middle of this. IT DEPENDS, as it always does and
| always did. Some people aren't in the right place to take on a
| proper meditative practice; others are in it for the wrong
| reason. Others still are so goal-oriented that they'll never
| understand the path for what it is. Some will become more
| selfish. Others will become better people. This is life. This is
| meditation.
| [deleted]
| BiteCode_dev wrote:
| I spent a year in a meditation center, and the results vary a lot
| from person to person, because what somebody needs right now in
| life is different from everybody else.
|
| Some people will need to become more discreet, while some people
| need to take more space, some people need to be less
| materialistic, while others need to accept to use material for
| their own comfort, some people need to play more, some need to
| work more.
|
| Also, what you see is rarely the definitive result: it's usually
| only part of the ungoing correction, meaning you may be seeing a
| swing on the other side of the curve, a different kind of
| unbalance, and it would be easy to judge the meditant is not
| progressing.
|
| However, progress in meditation is not an absolute, it is always
| to be understood in the context of each human. Some start from
| very far away on their path, and what your perceive as failure
| may be a great success for them.
|
| As usual with things that are practiced inside yourself, there is
| no objective way of measuring progress. We don't have a wisdom
| metter. This is also why it's very hard to assess if somebody is
| practicing correctly, or if some teaching is off. Teachers have
| tools for this, but even that is fuzzy at best.
|
| My personnal experience is that I used to be minimalist, and
| after years of meditation, now I buy more things. I used to
| attend to more social events, and now I'm declining regularly
| some of them. Now some around me could see that as a regression.
| But from my perspective, it's a way of taking more care of
| myself.
|
| Be careful with the way you evaluate people, practicing or not.
| You are probably not having all the context.
| nprateem wrote:
| Did you get enlightened? I'm thinking of spending a few months
| on retreat soon. I've always wanted to have an awakening.
| jackdawed wrote:
| I'm on the third stage of enlightenment, if you have any
| questions about my day to day experience.
| nprateem wrote:
| Is it worth it? Does it live up to the hype of bringing
| incredible peace and happiness?
| BiteCode_dev wrote:
| Ah, ah :D
|
| I don't even know if enlightening exist, to be honest.
|
| For me, it doesn't matter. I don't need the promise of
| something potentially amazing in the future, I'm just
| interested in something that makes my life better right now.
|
| In the center, I only met regular people with ordinary
| problems, even teachers. Getting a hang on suffering, one
| step at a time. Sometimes being completly off the mark,
| because humans are humans.
|
| Meditation is also probably the most boring thing I ever
| encountered. It's unspectacular, tedious, slow and utterly
| mundane.
|
| But it's the only thing that I've tried that brings
| consistent, increasing benefits in life.
|
| I wish for everybody to find something that is as good for
| them, awakening or not.
| nprateem wrote:
| I've spent a few years meditating most mornings and
| evenings and I'd hoped for more. No fireworks no bliss...
| feels like I'm not making much progress. But I've read
| about enough people experiencing much more I wonder where
| I'm going wrong
| BiteCode_dev wrote:
| All the teachers I practiced with repeated to me: don't
| look for something special. Don't look for bliss. If
| bliss comes, don't pay attention to it. Bliss is not the
| aim of this meditation.
|
| I don't know what meditation you are practicing, and
| there are so many of them I wouldn't be able to give any
| advice that would work with your own practice.
|
| So I can't know if you are doing something wrong.
|
| What I know, however, is that in the Vipassana meditation
| following Sayagyi U Ba Khin tradition, one would advice
| to focus on practice. There is no expectation. Nothing to
| achieve.
|
| In this tradition, your role is to provide efforts, but
| one is not responsible for the result. Things are just
| rising and passing away. Suffering. Bliss. Anything else.
| Just appearing and disapearing.
|
| Meditation is just the tool to help us live through that.
|
| Peace is not bliss. Peace means you don't need bliss, nor
| are you hindered by suffering. Easier said than done, and
| that's why it's a long path.
|
| It's a lifetime practice. You start again every day. One
| day, you realize you feel a bit more peaceful and happy
| than you used to. You smile. And you sit once again.
| izzygonzalez wrote:
| Bobby Axelrod meditates secularly. He's a case study in what
| happens when power isn't ethically contextualized.
| eggsmediumrare wrote:
| Are you saying there's no such thing as secular ethics?
| izzygonzalez wrote:
| No, I'm not saying that.
|
| Breath mindfulness can sharpen your blade, but it won't tell
| you when or why to use your blade. I present Axelrod as a
| modern pop culture representation of that.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anapanasati
| Adraghast wrote:
| "God is dead. God is dead, and we have killed him. How shall
| we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? Must we
| ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of the
| deed?"
| swayvil wrote:
| Create a nice mystic tradition that shows people how to conduct
| their own investigation of reality and awaken from the matrix and
| such.
|
| They will turn it into a list of rules. Every time.
|
| Fact is people just want a list of rules. They're born slaves
| looking for a master.
|
| And of course that's never gonna work.
| rygxqpbsngav wrote:
| Bound to happen. Why do you think Buddha has to leave all his
| wealth and kingdom before even starting the journey of
| mindfulness, leaving everything behind?
|
| The western adaptation is reducing meditation and mindfulness to
| a "tool" of relieving stress and better ones mental well-being.
| As easy as downloading an app and stay calm for few minutes.
|
| Unfortunately, this is not ideal. The traditional way is to seek
| a guru who asks the disciple to cleanse their heart first. Put
| them on the spiritual path of purifying the soul. Meditation is a
| part of ones spiritual journey. Some even leave everything and go
| to forest or mountains to practice for years.
|
| Fortunately, for those who want to live in a society closely,
| they should practice "Raja Yoga" which is also a spiritual path
| where one raises their spiritual plane by helping others and
| following ones duty with high-integrity.
|
| However simple breathing exercises still work for the body and
| can be easily incorporated into every day lives. There are so
| many apps helping with the patterns of different breathing
| techniques.
|
| But don't expect you or anyone to become a better person just by
| doing some mindfulness exercises. When one goes to
| discover/amplify their inner core, you will just highlight whats
| inside you more. I.e. if you are bad, you will get worse.
| Mindfulness has nothing to do with it but just amplifying what is
| already there as you discover yourself more through mindfulness.
| IdEntities wrote:
| I don't know that it's necessarily fair to describe this as a
| purely Western phenomenon. The Lamas were a hereditary elite
| who ruled over Tibet in a brutal caste system which reduced
| most of the people in it to the status of serfs, and all with
| their own particular strain of Buddhism used to justify and
| excuse it all. On our fridge, my wife has a picture of the
| Dalai Lama wearing a big fancy watch on his wrist. I always
| wonder how such a luxurious ostentation is supposed to fit in
| with what he preaches.
| watwut wrote:
| Dalai Lama preches the need for performative poverty or
| something?
| jamal-kumar wrote:
| Here's a zen koan
|
| Have you ever asked your wife about this?
| babyshake wrote:
| In a way, it is good for a famous spiritual leader to have
| obvious human flaws. I don't know too much about modern
| Buddhism but I don't think it would be good for Buddhists to
| worship their leader as being more than a mere mortal who
| might enjoy wearing a fancy watch.
| loopz wrote:
| It's a petty concern for someone who visits world leaders
| and maintain international relations at that level. It
| could be a conversation-starter in more unofficial moments,
| for fun (spiritual people are allowed 1 teaspoon of fun
| each day!) or just being practical.
|
| These kinds of topics are unfortunately what the focus many
| will remain at.
| serf wrote:
| >or just being practical
|
| generally speaking -- rolex collections don't spring up
| from practical reasons -- and he's known to purposely use
| cheap watch bands and flip the watch faces towards his
| wrists in an effort to hide them from view..
|
| https://www.watchmaster.com/en/journal/stories-
| en/personalit...
| IdEntities wrote:
| Perhaps it was a subject of discussion while he was
| visiting the Aum Shinrikyo or NXIVM!
| salty_biscuits wrote:
| The dalai llama is believed to be the literal reincarnation
| of the bodhisattva of compassion, so not a mere mortal.
| [deleted]
| detcader wrote:
| What a comment. A feast for the inner reply guy:
|
| > The traditional way is to seek a guru
|
| "The" way? According to whom? Did you do it?
|
| > Some even leave everything and go to forest or mountains to
| practice for years.
|
| Except the Buddha and his stories explicitly advised against
| asceticism...
|
| > they should practice "Raja Yoga" which is also a spiritual
| path where one raises their spiritual plane
|
| Again, according to who? Why not Jesus? Or Scientology? What's
| your personal experience?
|
| > However simple breathing exercises still work for the body
| and can be easily incorporated into every day lives.
|
| Well this is out of nowhere. It doesn't connect to anything
| that's been said. Do you do this?
|
| > When one goes to discover/amplify their inner core
|
| Inner core is new. What's that and who asked? Is it the same as
| a True Self?
|
| I'd say let's just focus on this: "Meditation is a part of ones
| spiritual journey." That's correct and all this issue needs.
| MBSR and the other sanitized, faith-cleansed scientifically
| quantifiable practices are not synonymous with mindfulness,
| meditation, or Buddhism. They're tangential, and for some they
| are nice greeters at the door to a path of spirituality.
| rygxqpbsngav wrote:
| Have you checked BiteCode_dev's response? And still think
| meditation is a "scientifically quantifiable practice"?
|
| Swami Vivekananda has a dedicated book on "Raja Yoga" in
| detail.
|
| I recommend - https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=c
| om.abdula.pra... app. I am a subscriber for years and this
| one has the authentic breathing patterns.
| zozbot234 wrote:
| It's not like the West doesn't have its own meditative and
| contemplative traditions. The Cynics and Stoics of the
| Classical world could have very diverse attitudes to wealth and
| material comforts, with the former being quite more disdainful
| of them and quite literally "living like dogs". We see the same
| thing in Western ascetic monasticism later on - some Western
| monks and nuns focus on helping others and doing their assigned
| duty in society, while others pursue a more focused spiritual
| and contemplative path.
| curuinor wrote:
| and seneca the stoic had 300 million sestertii total net
| worth, compared to the ordinary yearly wage of 200 sestertii,
| give or take!
|
| lots of rich religious folks out there in history. when they
| expropriated the buddhists in the huichang expropriation
| during the tang, they took tens of millions of acres of
| arable land and liberated 150,000 temple slaves
| Adraghast wrote:
| This would line up with a broader trend I've noticed and would be
| interested in reading more about: the use of pop psychology to
| justify antisocial behavior.
|
| Ten years ago, telling a distressed friend you don't feel like
| hearing about their problems would be incredibly rude. Now you
| can find NYT articles explaining how to couch the same sentiment
| in more acceptable terms like, "I don't have the bandwidth to
| perform that kind of emotional labor right now."
|
| Same thing here. Telling a person you wronged to "get over it" is
| unacceptable. Telling them that you've been working on letting go
| of negative feelings about the past and being more mindful of the
| present, and you hope they can do the same? Well if anyone has a
| problem with that, you don't need that kind of energy in your
| life!
| manmal wrote:
| Sounds like they are not able to shoulder responsibility for
| errors made in the past. It's not hard to do usually - a
| heartfelt apology takes a few seconds and can turn a
| relationship completely around.
| [deleted]
| HidyBush wrote:
| I mean, mindfulness is literally about taking a few minutes off
| to concentrate on yourself. I bet people who go on longs walks in
| nature to reflect by themselves also increase their "selfish"
| tendencies.
| Simon_O_Rourke wrote:
| Would there be any confounding factors, around the income,
| literacy, education and leisure time of the type of people who
| practice mindfulness?
| lettergram wrote:
| You mean, by coming in tune with ones own body and mind people
| start to value themselves? Call me shocked!
|
| In all seriousness, people who know what they want tend to come
| across as selfish. I don't know why people consider this bad. All
| airlines tell you to put on your masks, before helping others (in
| their emergency videos). The idea being, you must be capable in
| order to help others.
|
| I think this is something many altruists miss. Society is best
| when everyone is healthy and capable. Teach a man to fish, as
| opposed to giving him a fish, so to speak.
| javert wrote:
| I basically agree.
|
| "Selfish" is a sloppy word that combines unlike things. Which
| means it's a toxic word.
|
| People should be self-interested. We are organisms, after all.
| Like animals.
|
| However, people should not be fixated on their own self-
| interest to the point that they neglect the bigger picture. If
| you neglect the bigger picture, you will not _be successful_ at
| being self-interested.
|
| For example, if you neglect your spouse's feelings, people will
| say you're being "selfish." But you aren't being self-
| interested, because you aren't promoting a good life for
| yourself.
|
| For a good critique of altruism, which is really a separate
| topic, see Ayn Rand.
| mushbino wrote:
| I agree in principle, but anecdotally, I've seen lots wealthy
| folks in California get very into mindfulness which makes them
| feel great about themselves and feel more enlightened, but they
| do absolutely nothing to help others in any way. They only seem
| to become more self absorbed. Actually, it's not just wealthy
| people, I've seen it happen to poor folks who get into that
| too.
| kwertyoowiyop wrote:
| 'You are what you do, not what you think.'
|
| - badly paraphrased from Gary John Bishop
| Adraghast wrote:
| The headline gave me the same initial thought. I assume the
| experiment controlled for this, but so much of the
| mindfulness stuff is associated with self-optimizing hustle
| culture types that it seemed obvious to me it would correlate
| with higher-than-baseline selfish behavior.
| neltnerb wrote:
| True Story.
|
| I was newly moved to San Francisco and enrolled in a meditation
| course on literally loving-kindness (they were all mindfulness,
| this was a focused seminar).
|
| When I was on my way in someone was having a mental health
| emergency right outside the front door and looked to clearly need
| care. Not knowing who to call for this since I didn't live in the
| city, and definitely not wanting to call cops, I went in and
| asked how to take actual action to help them out.
|
| Instead of engaging with the real life actual emergency right in
| front of them where they could practice actually _doing_ loving-
| kindness people wanted to discuss how they could "use their
| suffering as an object of meditation". Few even stood up to look.
| Averting their eyes from suffering was a very strange response.
|
| It was unreal, I'm used to 90% of the people in a room during an
| emergency being stunned and uncertain (but attentive and
| worried), but there's always a few people who jump into action...
| there are times for action and times for contemplation and
| emergencies are not times to work on self-improvement.
|
| It was eye opening -- thankfully one of them had a more normal
| response and had experience so we were able to connect them to
| the Episcopalian church next door which operated a shelter and
| had people there trained in how to help. It was disturbing though
| that the people in the class who spoke so eloquently about the
| importance of kindness and helping others, who were actively
| practicing mindfulness and learning about themselves, had such a
| strange response to an emergency 20 feet away.
|
| One might almost describe it as faking being nice while changing
| little on the inside. Hippie and good person camouflage. A way to
| feel empathy _so hard_ and _so calmly_ that you don 't feel any
| urgency to take actual action.
| bowsamic wrote:
| This happens even at large zen monasteries. Truth is, Buddhism
| has no mechanism for distinguishing between mental illness and
| the usual suffering all samsaric beings experience. Therefore,
| Buddhist teachers cannot deal with mental health emergencies:
| all mental suffering is seen through the Buddhist lens
| denton-scratch wrote:
| I've seen this too; guy had a bipolar episode. Teacher told
| him he'd ruined everything, and would have to start again.
|
| More generally, Buddhist medicine would be a good thing, as
| Ghandi might have put it. The heart of Buddhist medicine is
| that life is short, suffering is unavoidable, and that the
| best treatment is to teach and practice Buddhism.
| roflc0ptic wrote:
| Well - how many of them did you need to help you?
|
| Something like this occurred at my buddhist temple during a
| meditation, except it was one of the members who collapsed.
| Someone went over help and the rest of us... couldn't do
| anything more. An ambulance was called. they got medical
| treatment.
|
| Should we have collectively wrung our hands? To what end?
|
| The point here isn't averting your eyes in the face of
| suffering, it's about correctly judging the situation and
| taking only effective action. Collectively performing impotent
| empathy isn't any more useful to the ailing person than quietly
| sitting and sending them prayers/lovingkindness/whatever.
| neltnerb wrote:
| I didn't expect everyone to jump into action and mill around
| pointlessly, I expected them to pause long enough to help me,
| a newcomer to town, contact people who were trained to
| help...
|
| And to be clear, I mean this as an example and a warning to
| not get too disconnected from the physical world while doing
| these meditations. They were all as friendly of people as any
| others I met in a city, it was the context that made it stick
| out in my mind.
| [deleted]
| LightG wrote:
| Going to be honest, this sounds like horsesh!t.
|
| In my entire life, meeting people from all walks of life
| (including people I vehemently disagree with, and some I would
| almost consider enemies, and even some zen Buddhists), when it
| came to the crunch, I know they/we would all have run towards
| an emergency as humans/neighbours.
|
| On the other hand, let me assume it's true, then it isn't
| representative IME.
| TheDong wrote:
| Have you lived in a large city with a very apparent
| homelessness crisis, such as san francisco?
|
| The homeless in places like SF are routinely experiencing
| serious emergencies, invariably need money and shelter, and
| are passed by tens of thousands of people each day who have
| the abilities to help them.
|
| Of those tens of thousands of people who pass a homeless
| person who's clearly in need of help, perhaps 100 will give
| them some money, perhaps 5 will pause to ask if they can
| help, and perhaps 1 will actually take a not-insignificant
| amount of time to try and assist them.
|
| These numbers are certainly not perfectly accurate, but from
| the people-watching I've done in the bay area, I can easily
| and confidently say that the average response to a stranger
| who has the class-signifiers of being homeless, even if that
| person appears to be having a seizure or other crisis, is to
| ignore them entirely.
|
| I think my observations align closely with the parent
| comment's observation, and I absolutely believe it is
| representative of the people who go to meditation courses in
| the bay area.
| LightG wrote:
| First question: Yes.
|
| The rest: conflation.
| haswell wrote:
| > _The rest: conflation._
|
| Conflation with what?
| danielvaughn wrote:
| "Good person camouflage". Nailed it, I love that.
| alar44 wrote:
| I think in that case, being in San Francisco, if you stopped to
| engage every crazy person you saw, it's all you'd be doing with
| your life and would probably end of covered in shit or stabbed.
| Engaging crazies in the homeless capitol of the world is
| dangerous and likely pointless.
| neltnerb wrote:
| I believe you, but if there's any situation in which people
| should perhaps practice a more compassionate response, that
| was it.
|
| Imagine if everyone had that response... I know it's fantasy,
| but I think that if you're studying mindfulness and
| compassion that's at least the direction you might want to be
| heading.
| jdkee wrote:
| "Chris was murdered in San Francisco on the evening of Nov,
| 17, 1979 as he left the San Francisco Zen Center. According
| to witnesses, Chris was robbed and then stabbed by two
| strangers near the corner of Haight and Octavia streets. He
| died shortly after the assault."
|
| See https://douglastoft.com/2022/04/18/robert-pirsig-on-
| coming-t...
| vmception wrote:
| and how do you act after no longer being _newly_ moved to San
| Francisco?
|
| that incident was imprinted in you, but how has it worked out
| for you since?
|
| my guess: you failed to learn anything because of course that
| focused seminar doesn't teach anything related to the kind of
| mental health emergencies that occur on San Francisco streets,
| and so thats a decent crutch for you to lean on to not engage
| with them yourself, overriden by your own self preservation
| instincts. or are you now a mental health case worker that
| responds to these instead of the police? or do you know how to
| call those groups now so that you aren't the confused bystander
| like when you first moved?
| neltnerb wrote:
| Putting a few numbers in your phone is something I did and
| would recommend to others in whatever city is relevant. These
| can of course come in handy regardless of whether you
| practice mindfulness meditation.
|
| My point was that the context of a class on loving-kindness
| was especially jarring. I fully advocate for everyone to take
| a class on basic first aid and know who to contact in
| response to a few basic classes of emergency, that seems as
| basic as having clean water in your house in case of an
| earthquake.
|
| I can perform CPR, stop blood loss within reason, or call
| someone that knows how to do things I don't. I'm very happy
| to take suggestions for other skills that should be commonly
| known to be good community members.
|
| https://sfgov.org/dosw/mental-health-services
| hombre_fatal wrote:
| Seems like an unfair standard to hold for these people over any
| other people.
|
| Very few people are equipped to handle crazy people on the
| street, even among people who are trying to become better
| people, whatever that may mean to them.
|
| You yourself attended the seminar on "loving-kindness" but
| couldn't resist dunking on these people some time later. But
| the thing is that I don't consider that inconsistent just
| because you were trying to improve yourself.
|
| Even if the seminar were about helping crazy people that were
| standing in front of self-help seminars, it's still an unfair
| standard.
| eqNotEq wrote:
| For some value of selfish tendencies.
|
| Tribal feudalists and nomadic spirits have been waging culture
| wars for a long time.
|
| Contemporary British politics seem a bit selfish. Not sure the
| BBC should be taken too seriously as its government funders push
| austerity.
|
| Tomorrow they'll run articles about being more mindful for clicks
| anyway. Does anyone else get tired of this intentional emotional
| ping pong?
| m1117 wrote:
| mindfulness is a buzzword. It can mean different things for
| different people, there's only an internal definition per person.
| People are always selfish. Selfishness should be in a balance.
| [deleted]
| lmeyerov wrote:
| Yes!
|
| I'm a fan & practitioner of NVC, mindfulness, careful work life
| balance, etc for being able to treat startups as a marathon vs
| sprint... But I've observed people overuse & abuse these tools to
| rationalize prioritizing self over peers in ways that come at the
| direct expense of the same exact things of their colleagues. It
| can add up over time in a way that breeds resentment, distrust,
| non-collaboration, etc. Generally, risks a toxicity that taxes
| everyone more than the individual brings to the team. What one
| person needs is different from their peers, so requires some sort
| of empathic give-and-take, and for someone not as good at paying
| attention, help doing so.
|
| In a team of high-functioning folks, a tricky line to walk! (And
| if people have recs here, am curious!)
| vmception wrote:
| "good vibes only"
|
| "higher vibrations only"
| lukasb wrote:
| Mindfulness and compassion are often talked of as "two wings of a
| bird" by dharma teachers - mindfulness doesn't automatically
| translate to compassion. This sutta makes the same point:
|
| Manibhadda Sutta (SN 10:4)
|
| On one occasion the Blessed One was staying among the Magadhans
| at the Jewel-stand Shrine, the haunt of the yakkha-spirit,
| Manibhadda [Auspicious Jewel].
|
| Then Manibhadda the yakkha-spirit went to the Blessed One and, on
| arrival, recited this verse:
|
| "It's always auspicious for one who is mindful. The mindful one
| prospers happily--always. The mindful one grows better each day
| and is totally freed from animosity."
|
| The Buddha:
|
| "It's always auspicious for one who is mindful. The mindful one
| prospers happily always. The mindful one grows better each day
|
| _but isn't totally freed from animosity. Whoever's heart, all
| day, all night, delights in harmlessness with goodwill for all
| beings
|
| has no animosity with anyone at all._
| neltnerb wrote:
| My issue with this specific concept is that lots and lots of
| people are lazy and instead of doing compassionate things, they
| "feel compassion" as a generic emotion through the use of
| meditation.
|
| I studied Buddhism quite a while pretty seriously, and I know
| that a lot of the meditations involve practicing loving
| yourself, and your friends, family, community, and that these
| feelings of love are a core thing to have in your mind as your
| practice. But you also have to actually _do_ things to help, it
| 's not enough to be nice about it.
|
| The Buddhist temple I took some meditation classes at practiced
| feeling good things towards people. The Episcopalians next door
| ran a shelter. It's not hard to see which is further on the
| path towards enlightenment, and it's something that seems like
| it's very very often missing from Western teachings.
|
| And completely absent from self-help books about the subject,
| which are 100% self-centered. Lesson 1 of compassion meditation
| should be volunteering at a food bank, not learning to forgive
| yourself for your flaws. These things should be learned
| together, not in isolation.
| reggieband wrote:
| I think this is partially due to meditation being strongly
| associated in Western culture with New Thought [1] type
| movements. This diverse movement is the inspiration for most of
| the modern self-help ideology. As the quotes from William James
| in that article mention, the basis is "Mind-Cure", or the idea
| that thinking the right thoughts leads to physically healing
| the body.
|
| Many people in Western culture get into those Eastern (Taoist,
| Hindu, Buddhist) practices for the purpose of self enhancement.
| People will meditate to control anxiety, to improve focus or to
| increase performance in some aspect of their lives. Very often
| the goal is one of personal improvement, or managing some kind
| of idealized growth/flourishing of the individual.
|
| Most people here would probably deride the outlandish New Age
| ideas that grew out of the original Christian Science
| underpinnings of New Thought. But I find the basic premises of
| new thought to be the spiritual zeitgeist of the current age.
|
| 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Thought
| manachar wrote:
| I suspect the result shown here is part of the broader tendency
| for people to only adopt the parts of things that make them
| "feel better".
|
| Zen comes to America and it's adopted by self-absorbed people
| as a reason to be more like the self-absorbed people they want
| to be.
|
| The advantaged of a well-thought out dogma is it can include
| things like a focus on compassion so that a tool doesn't just
| become another tool to help people rationalize their worst
| tendencies.
|
| There are, of course, problems with dogmas, but I do encourage
| people to seek out things that challenge themselves rather than
| confirm their opinions and behavior.
| Trasmatta wrote:
| I've seen a similar effect in a subset of people that get super
| into psychedelics. In some cases, they seem to lead to a hyper
| inflated ego.
|
| > Yet a growing body of research suggests that such stories may
| be surprisingly common, with one study from 2019 showing that at
| least 25% of regular meditators have experienced adverse events,
| from panic attacks and depression to an unsettling sense of
| "dissociation".
|
| The 25% number is pretty striking, if true. You see people
| recommending meditation without reservation, and discounting
| adverse effects as "exceptionally rare". Over the years I've
| begun to see more and more stories of people having deeply
| destabilizing experiences with meditation, and it concerns me how
| quickly people dismiss that possibility. There's even an attitude
| of "oh, that's a normal part of the process, just keep working
| through it and you'll come out the other side". But there's
| usually no informed consent going into a practice that this might
| happen.
|
| (And going back to psychedelics -- I have a similar complaint
| about people's attitudes around "bad trips". Psychonauts like to
| say "there's no such thing as a bad trip, only difficult ones",
| but I think that dangerously discounts how destabilizing trips
| can be sometimes.)
| potatoman22 wrote:
| Who's to say that meditation caused these adverse events?
| Perhaps some of those events would've happened regardless of if
| the person mediates.
| nprateem wrote:
| I've been reading Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha
| and the author makes the same point about informed consent.
| It's widely known in various traditions meditation can mess you
| up. I think he quotes someone saying "better not to start if
| you're not going to finish" or you may end up in a bad place
| for a long time.
| Trasmatta wrote:
| > It's widely known in various traditions meditation can mess
| you up
|
| Yeah, and the interesting thing is that in many Eastern
| traditions, meditation wasn't ever even recommended for the
| average person. And those that did do it, did so in an
| environment with teachers and safeguards. The McMindfulness
| fad is missing almost all of that, and I'm starting to see
| more and more stories of people hitting a dangerous wall
| without the cultural support they need to navigate to the
| other side.
|
| Sam Harris is one of the current major proponents of
| meditation in the West, and I've heard him say "even if
| meditation were bad for people, I would still recommend they
| do it". I think that's irresponsible advice.
| BiteCode_dev wrote:
| > The 25% number is pretty striking, if true. You see people
| recommending meditation without reservation, and discounting
| adverse effects as "exceptionally rare". Over the years I've
| begun to see more and more stories of people having deeply
| destabilizing experiences with meditation, and it concerns me
| how quickly people dismiss that possibility. There's even an
| attitude of "oh, that's a normal part of the process, just keep
| working through it and you'll come out the other side". But
| there's usually no informed consent going into a practice that
| this might happen.
|
| > There's even an attitude of "oh, that's a normal part of the
| process, just keep working through it and you'll come out the
| other side". .
|
| It's pretty much my experience.
|
| Yes, when you meditate, sometime some things will have to be
| broken or removed to let place to something new. Those
| temporary states are disagreable, and from the outside can be
| experienced as "panic attacks and depression to an unsettling
| sense of dissociation".
|
| Unfortunatly, if a building is in a bad shape, there is no way
| around destroying some part of it to rebuild. And this takes
| time. Meanwhile, there is a hole.
|
| It's not specific to meditation. You will see that in
| psychotherapy as well.
|
| That's why having meditation teachers is important, because
| they have to help you through this, make you understand what's
| happening, that like all the things, it's temporary, and to
| keep it up.
|
| And you are right when you say:
|
| > But there's usually no informed consent going into a practice
| that this might happen
|
| Because the experience vary a lot from person to person. There
| is no typical path. Some will not live that. Some will live a
| very mild or short sample of that.
|
| Meditation is not science. You can't predict how long things
| will go, or how long they will take. You even can't be exactly
| sure somebody is practicing correctly, nor that something else
| is not interracting with it in a bad way. That's why serious
| centers take so many precautions with beginers, but it's not
| perfect. It can't be.
|
| And it would be tempting (also quite logical) to think "what
| I'm doing doesn't work, I'm worse than I used to be".
|
| Unfortunatly yes, the old saying of "it will get harder before
| it gets easier" apply here in my experience. It will apply
| several times during a life of meditation, in cycles. Although
| it's way easier once you are experienced: you just use
| meditation as a way to go through it. It's what it's for after
| all.
|
| There is no alternative to trusting it will pass. Like with a
| chemothery, where some patients feel terrible for a long time
| before they feel better, while some patients never fully
| recover, and some even die.
|
| I went through all those stages in 16 years of meditation.
| Panic attacks. Depression. Dissociation. It sucks. The
| experience of a lot of meditants is that the practice does
| replace them with a better life eventually. The increase in
| happiness is, on average over a decade, very real and positive
| if you practice correctly, and keep at it.
|
| But it's hard. It's also not something you can plan for.
|
| Plus it can worry people around you, and even yourself. Which
| is a good thing: it means one cares about you.
|
| I would understand than somebody doesn't want to take the risk.
|
| I would state it's worth it, as I feel it is. But who knows,
| could be survivor bias.
| jackpeterfletch wrote:
| https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/cover-story/id15946753...
|
| The initial episode covers a story closer to a cult. But later
| this podcast reflects a lot of what you've mentioned
| anecdotally with respect to to modern psychedelic research.
| mpalczewski wrote:
| I've been meditating regularly for at least 10 years now. My own
| selfish tendencies have increased and decreased during that time,
| it doesn't seem related. I think meditating is rather selfish,
| it's doing something for yourself, and that's ok. I primarily
| meditate because it helps me focus. I think it helps me deal with
| stress and helps me sleep better. I don't attempt any particular
| pose as most of the cross legged stuff is painful and has caused
| injuries.
| nabla9 wrote:
| If you want to see if there is connection, you should study
| people who have meditated 20 years or more.
| NavinF wrote:
| I genuinely can't tell if this is sarcasm.
| nabla9 wrote:
| I have meditated over 20 years roughly 2 hours per day. I
| think it finally starts to work.
| randomsearch wrote:
| Do you worry about the opportunity cost of that time?
| nabla9 wrote:
| No. Even a moment of being really alive is better than
| the next best thing.
| lr4444lr wrote:
| Why is this a surprise? It's a technique whose central tenet is
| to turn a person's attention inward, promoting it as therapy. I
| am sure it helps a subpopulation, but I'm definitely not in it.
| dools wrote:
| It's easy to set sail for equanimity and run aground on
| indifference.
| BurningFrog wrote:
| Contrarian take:
|
| Some people actually need to become more selfish.
| atoav wrote:
| I never really got mindfulness. I mean, yes: Being somewhere and
| juat being _there_ in the moment and recognizing it in all its
| detail and on purpose _can_ be good. Just like it can be good to
| look out of the window when all you do all day is staring out of
| the window.
|
| But I think a state of no thought, where things just flow in your
| absence is just as (if not more) important. Be it when you play
| music and stop thinking and just _do_. Or when the same happens
| in sports, coding, painting, walking whatever.
|
| The thing about _mindful_ people is (at least judging from the
| small sample size I know) that they like to be mindful about
| everything. And they don 't look _well_ or relaxed. Just like
| this behavior is yet another form of escapism.
|
| Mindfulness, sure. But it is by far not the only state of mind
| that you should bw in.
| danielvaughn wrote:
| Having lived in Boulder CO for several years, which is basically
| the Mecca of Americanized mindfulness, I can attest that this is
| true. The most ardent practitioners that I met were invariably
| self obsessed.
| ramraj07 wrote:
| I spent a week in Denver and boulder and continuously got the
| eerie vibe that every person I met who moved there, is an
| example of the most self centered person I would have met in
| any other situation elsewhere. I suppose the type of young
| person who'd move to CO "for the outdoors" is gonna select for
| the trend. Everything, including the assholish cycling, was
| indicative of that. Noped out of that place for this reason.
| denton-scratch wrote:
| Denver is Trungpa territory, right?
| danielvaughn wrote:
| Moreso Boulder but yeah
| randomsearch wrote:
| Could you expand on the "for the outdoors" comment and
| explain why those people are self centred? Assuming this must
| be an American cultural thing
| rubyfan wrote:
| Can anyone actually say what "mindfulness" really means?
|
| I once met a mindfulness coach who was trying to sell me on his
| business where he comes onsite and coaches corporate clients on
| mindfulness. The pitch broke down when he couldn't articulate to
| me what the hell was really meant by mindfulness.
| 7952 wrote:
| The whole wellbeing thing being peddled in companies feels like
| such a scam. Like fad diets aimed at extracting money from
| vulnerable people.
| vinyl7 wrote:
| For many many years I was stuck inside my head. I had erected
| "walls" to protect myself and keep others out. Being afraid of
| coming off as weird, being worried about saying the wrong
| thing, afraid of being rejected, afraid of being assertive. So
| I would hide inside my head, keep to myself, and when people
| tried to get close to me (as in trying to be a close friend) I
| would instinctively push them away, in a sense, to keep my
| distance. When in social situations I would try to find any
| excuse to leave as quickly as possible because all I was
| thinking about was being worried about being awkward or weird
| or rejected.
|
| At the same time, I became very distressed about being single
| and having very few friends.
|
| I finally realized why I lacked friends and relationships, it
| was because I pushing people away. I also realized that the
| reason for this was because I was stuck inside my head, over
| analyzing everything, over thinking everything, making up
| problems in my head, being anxious, worried, and fearful about
| the past and the future.
|
| So I found "mindfulness" as a way to escape my brain from the
| never ending loop of analyzing people and social situations, to
| stop trying to figure out people's hidden intentions, stop
| thinking about the past and the future. To live in the moment
| and let myself be me rather than hiding myself.
|
| To me, mindfulness just means recognizing when my brain is a
| run-away train of thoughts and to not let it consume me. It's
| about getting outside of my head and into real life. For me,
| it's the difference of being safe but miserable or taking risks
| and potentially reaping rewards (friendships, relationships,
| new opportunities, etc.) The best way I can describe is the
| stereotypical/incorrect description of being an introvert vs
| being an extrovert.
| denton-scratch wrote:
| It's a bunch of different practices. At it's heart it just
| means paying attention all the time. The outcome depends on the
| motivation; it could be real insight, or power over others, or
| greater calmness.
|
| There's no point in trying to teach mindfulness to people who
| just want a 5-minute de-stressing session. Mindfulness is work.
| jackdawed wrote:
| This is a forefront issue that Buddhism tries to address, both
| modern pragmatic Buddhism and fundamentalist Buddhism. It's why
| right speech, right action, and morals is one of the first things
| they drill into you. Most pragmatic practitioners will refuse to
| teach you if you indicate that you have some mental problems or
| moral deficiencies that should be addressed by a professional
| first, as mindfulness may end up doing more harm than good. It's
| one of the flaws of teaching secular mindfulness, far from its
| Buddhist roots. I've experienced all these interpersonal deficits
| after meditating seriously 2 hours every day for 2 years
| straight. Just need to have the self-awareness to address them,
| despite the goal of no-self.
|
| I saw a Dr. K video in another comment, and one of my favorite
| quotes he uses to describe meditation is that, "if you run for 5
| miles a day, there will be changes to your body that will
| definitely happen".
|
| More here:
|
| - https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-i-the-fund...
|
| - https://eudoxos.github.io/cfitness/html/index.html
|
| - https://themindfulgeek.com/ plus a talk he gave at Google
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2xxsA9Bn-4
| zozbot234 wrote:
| It's interesting that Western Christianity has pretty much the
| same underlying message - you simply can't reach salvation and
| union with God without starting from right morals. (This might
| be why Stoicism with its meditative and contemplative
| traditions, and a similar focus on divinely-inspired
| "right/moral action" was a key ally of early Christianity.)
| danuker wrote:
| > I've experienced all these interpersonal deficits after
| meditating seriously 2 hours every day for 2 years straight.
|
| Wow! I haven't meditated before. That sounds like a lot of
| time.
|
| Do you still meditate? What does it offer you? Has it offered
| you what you expected?
| 2-718-281-828 wrote:
| I'm also curious about an answer. If I may take a guess from
| my own experience. People from Western countries tend to
| start meditation practice with a specific goal in mind as
| opposed to just doing it naturally as it is part of the
| culture. For me a goal is gaining mental strength and
| balance. After meditating for a while I reach that goal (at
| least to some extent) and get overwhelmed by the energetic
| surplus. That leads to either distraction or simply investing
| this positivity into another goal (work, a project, social
| activities, ...) leaving me less motivated to further
| meditate (because it is less "fun" to sit still and work on
| your mind instead of doing something). After a while the
| energetic surplus is consumed and I am sooner or later
| mentally back to square one - because stopping the meditation
| also stopped the healing and reflection and I'm faced anew
| with old wounds destabilizing my mind.
| 2-718-281-828 wrote:
| what would you say are examples of harm done by dedicated
| meditation practiced by people with moral deficiencies?
| colordrops wrote:
| The term is "spiritual bypass". You disconnect from emotions,
| pleasure and pain, etc, see the world as illusion, and no
| longer feel guilt for poor action.
| 2-718-281-828 wrote:
| I'm wondering though if that is really a necessary
| consequence of non-spiritual meditation practice. There is
| fine line between meditation and autogenic training style
| self-hypnosis internalizing convenient messages. So, if a
| practitioner starts to go down that route all bets are off.
| OTOH it is true that social norms become less relevant with
| meditation. For one because meditation makes you strong and
| social norms are backed up by guilt dynamics which don't
| work well on actually self-confident people. Also social
| norms are constructs and you start to look through those
| instead of thinking they are actually real. But I have some
| slight feeling that this might as well open up a path to
| real and authentic moral attitude and personal ethics.
| Those simply might not be so convenient and easily
| manipulated and by that seem somewhat frightening to some
| people.
| davesque wrote:
| There's a balance to be struck with anything. On the one hand,
| teaching meditation outside of the context of religion might
| increase the likelihood of the purpose of the practice being
| misunderstood. On the other hand, any religious practice runs
| the risk of breeding a sense of self righteousness in the
| practitioner. With meditation and mindfulness, I've seen both.
|
| Also, I gotta say that language like "moral deficiencies"
| sounds incredibly broad without some examples. I think that
| speaks to the drawbacks of a religious context. I don't
| necessarily mean to direct these comments at you in particular
| (after all, I don't know what you meant by "moral deficiencies"
| without more info), but morality is a slippery topic and
| religion often seems to treat it like it isn't.
| jmfldn wrote:
| A related talk by my favorite Buddhist teacher, Ajahn Sona, on
| 'Right Mindfulness'.
|
| https://youtu.be/JOcoynQCmZ0
|
| Highly recommend his channel by the way.
| rjh29 wrote:
| 10-20 minutes/day was enough to teach me how to be 'mindful' on
| demand and mitigated a lot of mild ADHD-type problems in my life
| (impatience, anger, finding queues unbearable, high sensitivity
| to noise etc.).
|
| I spent a few months doing more, and it may not be related, but I
| became increasingly detached from the outside world, more self-
| absorbed and less motivated. Spent a lot of time just sitting and
| being content with nothing, which made me question why I should
| strive for -anything-. Always focused on improving myself, and
| the way I thought and felt, but it kept me stuck in my own head
| and not engaged with other people. There is a benefit in doing
| loving kindness and other forms of meditation that connect you
| with others.
| infogulch wrote:
| A recent Dr K video tries to address this problem.
|
| I Meditated, Now I Don't Care Anymore -
| https://youtu.be/NnTLJtBr1zo
| id wrote:
| Is it good to not care?
| [deleted]
| criticaltinker wrote:
| "Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods
| made for fun."
|
| - Alan Watts
| bowsamic wrote:
| I have experienced this as a Soto Zen practitioner. Easy to
| kind of "give up" on normal life, since it suddenly seems much
| less important
| bschne wrote:
| Mind sharing your routine? Dealing w/ similar issues and been
| meaning to try this sort of thing for a while after a few
| friends have recommended it...
| [deleted]
| catilinam wrote:
| Went through this myself after your typical LSD->mindfulness path
| in college. Definitely learned a ton, but people don't take
| meditation seriously enough!
|
| It's not just a little stress reduction technique, it can
| completely shift your view of reality. Much of your "average
| successful life" is based on the illusion of the self, and
| meditation slowly chips away at that illusion. I think without
| the spiritual "context" (e.g. what was taught by Goenka) for the
| insight, one can become very withdrawn from life
|
| That said, I still meditate and think it's been overwhelmingly
| positive. But like anything worthwhile, denying the real risks
| doesn't help anyone
| photochemsyn wrote:
| This is so subject to interpretation that it's almost
| meaningless. For example, consider the case of someone who takes
| up meditation and comes to the realization that they really hate
| their job. If they then quit their job and seek another position
| at the same or lower pay, are they being 'selfish'?
|
| On the one hand, if they've bought into the notion that "we are
| all a family here" and that loyalty to their employer is like a
| familial obligation, and quitting their job is like abandoning an
| elderly relative on the street corner, then they may indeed be
| consumed by feelings of guilt and anxiety. Most observers would
| note that this is a false equivalency: the relationship between
| employer and employee is certainly not like that between parent
| and child.
|
| One could likewise argue that quitting a job one hates is
| actually altruistic, as there are people who might like that job
| and if one's workplace is full of people who like what they're
| doing, it makes it a much more pleasant environment.
| Additionally, people who hate their jobs are known to take out
| their frustrations on family members, which is an unpleasant
| situation, so quitting a job one hates, even if it results in a
| somewhat lower standard of living, is not at all selfish -
| assuming one can find another job, and the end result is not
| poverty/homelessness.
|
| Meditation would seem to be beneficial in any case. Some people
| don't even recognize that they hate their job as much as they do,
| and perhaps some internal reflection can suggest some changes
| that can be made to make the situation at least tolerable.
|
| Incidentally, attempting to use things like guilt to motivate
| people to be obedient is a very unhealthy and Machiavellian
| tactic, and if 'mindfulness' helps people to break out of such
| situations, then the more the better.
| np- wrote:
| 100% agreed. Somehow this article manages to redefine
| mindfulness as just convincing yourself to feel no guilt for
| anything. That's not mindfulness, that's just being a
| narcissist sociopath.
| elmerfud wrote:
| So reading through this it's kind of interesting to look between
| the lines. There has always been vapid social vampires in our
| midst that would leech from others around them in any way that
| they could. It could be in monetary support, social and emotional
| support etc... And these vampires would do it naturally never
| thinking to give anything in return. The rise of the selfie cam
| and social media has created even more of these vampires.
|
| Now when I read this article about mindfulness promoting
| selfishness what I actually see is people who are preyed upon by
| these vampires stop being prey when they embrace mindfulness. I
| suppose when you are the vampire and you are no longer to Leach
| your happiness from others you would consider that other person
| selfish. In reality this is more that people embracing
| mindfulness are incredibly attuned to their surroundings and the
| people that they interact with and realize what's happening and
| simply are holding up a mirror. These social vampires like the
| vampires of fantasy see nothing and thus call other selfish for
| refusal to be prey.
| Jensson wrote:
| How do you draw that conclusion when the study says:
|
| "Experiments 2a-2c found that induced state mindfulness reduced
| the willingness to engage in reparative behaviors in normally
| guilt-inducing situations."
|
| This is about people who has has wronged others becoming less
| likely to make up for it after practicing mindfulness. Meaning,
| this is about mindfulness making more vapid social vampires who
| just take without giving back since it reduces guilt, not about
| people being more resistant to them.
| Schroedingersat wrote:
| Not to make any assumptions one way or another, but both the
| article's conclusions and your rebuttal are predicated on the
| initial feelings of guilt stemming from a genuine wrong.
|
| If we posit instead that the guilt stemmed from a bad faith
| interaction initiated by a 'vapid social vampire', then
| correctly rejecting the guilt would be consistent with
| rejecting said vampires.
|
| Ie. the truth of the grandparent's comment has no bearing on
| the results of this study (only its interpretation) or vice
| versa.
| doelie_ wrote:
| Vipassana style meditation (minfulness) should always be combined
| with Metta (lovingkindness), especially for westerners.
|
| That's the advice I keep seeing.
| zozbot234 wrote:
| Vipassana is insight meditation, not mindfulness and not really
| appropriate for beginners. The closest equivalent to
| mindfulness would be concentration, or samadhi.
| bowsamic wrote:
| Not accurate at all, mindfulness and samadhi are two
| different factors in the eightfold path
| jackdawed wrote:
| One of the core practices of insight meditation (Vipassana)
| is to be mindful of your inner thoughts, like through
| "noting", and observe them through the lenses of the 3
| characteristics. You use one-pointedness concentration
| (Samadhi) to tune into these thoughts. You can also do
| Samadhi without Vipassana, as many yogis have, but you cannot
| do Vipassana without a baseline concentration ability. Some
| people use mindfulness meditation and Vipassana
| interchangeably, but it is not entirely accurate, yeah.
| Mindfulness is only one exercise of the broader insight
| meditation (Vipassana).
| hoseja wrote:
| Some peolpe have selfish tendency defficiency.
| andrewclunn wrote:
| People assume this is a bad outcome, but in a society where
| "being true to one's authentic self" is promoted as the main
| virtue, one would be expected to embrace selfish behaviors if
| they reflect. It's a low-brow blending of Nietzsche and Rand, but
| marketed as proto-communist mysticism. Ask not what you can do
| for your country. Ask what the world owes you!
| thenerdhead wrote:
| I don't really get why this is evidence when it's just asking an
| ethics question and having people "let their mind wander". The
| context they mention is extremely important.
|
| Practicing mindfulness is not just letting your mind wander. It's
| practice, just like exercising or coding. You get better at it
| with time, not just a Homer Simpson moment of following your
| thoughts after being asked a question about being a decent human
| being.
|
| The whole idea of mindfulness is to get to know yourself better
| and work on the not so great parts such as when your ego gets
| involved. If you practice it today and have found tremendous
| results, great! Also if you tried it and it didn't help much,
| that's okay too.
|
| I'll continue to do it because it's what I believe separates good
| from great in my life and helps me accomplish more. I'm glad they
| mentioned this:
|
| > "The effects are much weaker than had been proposed." Like
| Hafenbrack, he suspects the practice can still be useful - but
| whether you see the desired benefits may depend on many factors,
| including the meditators' personality, motivation and beliefs, he
| says. "Context is really important."
| ramraj07 wrote:
| Whenever someone talks about mindfulness or stoicism, the name
| that pops to my head is Tim Ferris. Like a less crappier Joe
| Rogan with an actual brain maybe? I still listen to some of his
| podcast episodes because he gets guests who I want to learn
| about. But oh my god the narcissism! I get it the podcast is
| about success and how to succeed, but for the love of god try to
| take your head out of your own ass for a minute? I've listened to
| tens of hours if not hundreds and haven't ever heard him talk
| about a single act of kindness or help he or his guests have ever
| done to strangers.
|
| You know what he'll bring up every day? Mindfulness or meditation
| or stoicism. Like buddy, if you can't sleep it's probably because
| you know you're not a nice person deep down. No amount of
| meditation is gonna help that.
| [deleted]
| klabb3 wrote:
| God I can't stand that kind of BS. Thanks for warning me, I'll
| be sure to avoid him.
|
| Both supply and demand for these motivational charlatans are
| immense. Something tells me it's not about actual drive to be
| successful, because the most successful people aren't
| listening/reading that crap, they're too busy practicing,
| learning, etc. Instead I think it's a self-misdiagnosis
| (there's something wrong with me, and it's my motivation) and
| then the charlatans confirm that by saying "yes, listen to me,
| I'll give you a short high of confidence, come back for more!".
|
| In reality the success addicts just aren't passionate about
| anything, and that's ok. What they need is to either (a) find
| their passion, and that takes time, an open mind, and trying
| different things or (b) accept that they aren't passionate and
| enjoy life in other ways.
| [deleted]
| marcusverus wrote:
| This seems like a weirdly vitriolic post. It's bursting with
| negative characterizations, (he's a narcissist, he's up his own
| ass, and that he's not a good person deep down) and the support
| you offer for these hateful words is... the fact that he
| doesn't talk about philanthropy?
|
| I mean, it's not that he doesn't engage in philanthropy,
| because he does[0]. It's that he doesn't _talk_ about
| philanthropy?
|
| Is it possible--and I offer this in the spirit of friendship
| (mostly)--that you need to take your head out of your own ass
| for a minute?
|
| [0] https://twitter.com/tferriss/status/1502103847728300070
| rpmisms wrote:
| I understand exactly what you're talking about. I genuinely
| can't listen to ideological podcasters who are shitty people. I
| don't mean ideologies I disagree with, I mean people with no
| compassion who try to tell you how to live.
|
| Good example: Tim Pool. He's ideologically pretty close to me,
| but I can't stand him as a person. No thanks.
| manmal wrote:
| How is Tim Ferriss ideological or a shitty person? I think
| he's trying real hard and doesn't stomp on people. His
| success is also quite hard earned IMO.
| manmal wrote:
| Selfishness is not narcissism. Narcissism usually comes with
| selfishness, but you can't induce the other way round. It's
| interesting that you mention that Ferriss or his guests
| wouldn't talk about their acts of kindness, as that's exactly
| the kind of thing narcissists like to talk about (= virtue
| signalling).
| ramraj07 wrote:
| Agreed that at the least they're implicitly honest about it
| (which is why I still listen).
| logifail wrote:
| > It's interesting that you mention that Ferriss or his
| guests wouldn't talk about their acts of kindness, as that's
| exactly the kind of thing narcissists like to talk about
|
| Hadn't heard of him, but as an [ex]scientist I'd be
| fascinated to see the actual data showing any correlation
| between "narcissist" and "entrepreneur, investor, author,
| podcaster, and lifestyle guru"[0]
|
| Put slightly different, how many people who shy away from
| attention end up famous for their podcasts?
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Ferriss
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