[HN Gopher] Transfusion of brain fluid from young mice improves ...
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Transfusion of brain fluid from young mice improves memory in old
mice
Author : gmays
Score : 127 points
Date : 2022-05-12 15:30 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.statnews.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.statnews.com)
| briga wrote:
| Isn't memory also improved by novelty? For instance, your
| memories before and after a major life event (say, a surgery) are
| likely going to be more vivid than your memories around an
| average day (say, day 4000 sitting in a cage). This makes
| evolutionary sense--novel events should take up more of your
| limited memory resources than events you've encountered thousands
| of times before. It also makes me wonder about the methodology
| behind this paper.
| natly wrote:
| On the other hand, just being able to rest whenever you need and
| get enough sleep and have time for exersize and great food (which
| rich people have) is already a huge competitive advantage. So a
| similar effect as this would produce is definitely already
| happening.
| sudden_dystopia wrote:
| The mice boomers will never relinquish their power now.
| 1270018080 wrote:
| Don't let the oligarchs here about this.
| dv_dt wrote:
| This makes me wonder about transmission of diseases such as
| prions in that kind of transfusion though. Perhaps better to
| understand the fundamental process and synthesize the core
| chemicals involved (if it comes to that).
| ada1981 wrote:
| Andrenochrome?
| yalogin wrote:
| May be a stupid question but how confident are we that we
| understand memory in mice? Is memory as humans perceive it the
| same as what mice perceive it?
| ninesnines wrote:
| not a stupid question!
|
| you can classify memory into many different components, and how
| memory in mice translates into humans is not extremely clear.
|
| we can do experiments that do fear conditioning, or classic
| conditioning and operant conditioning, but the translation from
| mice to humans is definitely not clear cut. I think this is one
| of the biggest weaknesses of the paper actually
| SemanticStrengh wrote:
| We do not understand memory of humans nor of mices nor of
| C.elegans. The question of the neural code is an unsolved
| problem with close to zero progress. However we don't need to,
| The regions and deficits in memory processing are highly
| preserved/correlated between mammals. They are many potent
| Nootropics for memory, such as Dihexa and prl, those are called
| hypermnesics. A classical one is choline, found in eggs and
| overlap with the nicotine impact on intelligence
| idea55 wrote:
| gtowey wrote:
| Imortan Jeff?
| geoffeg wrote:
| Which episode of Futurama is that from? ;)
| idea55 wrote:
| Real life, different billionaire:
|
| https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/08/peter-thiel-wants-
| to...
| 01100011 wrote:
| I don't have access to the paper but Dr. Charles Brenner seems to
| think that the study was inadequate:
| https://twitter.com/CharlesMBrenner/status/15248703642489528...
|
| If you're interested in aging topics, he did a recent debate with
| Dr. Aubrey de Grey: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJIvp_J-kzM
| msie wrote:
| It is so frustrating that the end result is years away. I hope
| that they don't just look for some equivalent micro drug but
| perform experiments with the actual growth factor in human test
| subjects.
| strangattractor wrote:
| Science has proved once again that we can cure MICE of just about
| anything. Maybe if we would let them experiment on us we get
| better human results.
| ntoskrnl wrote:
| Unless you're volunteering to let scientists poke at your
| brain, mice are the best option we have.
| https://www.yourgenome.org/facts/why-use-the-mouse-in-resear...
| savant_penguin wrote:
| Funnily enough, some people volunteered to test/develop (I
| don't recall which) the COVID vaccine but were turned down
| ahurmazda wrote:
| Death is the ultimate equalizer. We take solace in the fact that
| no matter how rich, brutal, tyrannical, comically-villainous one
| is, death will surely come for us all.
|
| The day old-gizzards figure out how to sip on young-people juice
| and live forever, we are truly screwed.
| hulitu wrote:
| A criminal is still a criminal even after death.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| space_fountain wrote:
| Huge worry for me as well. Let me remind everyone that aging is
| mostly about entropy, the exact same thing that causes an
| engine to inevitably wear out and break down happening to you
| and just like an engine fixing can't ever be as simple as just
| applying on procedure to all engines, because a million
| different things can go wrong, and there are a billion
| different unique people each with slightly different ways to
| break down. We're starting to go down a road of designer
| medicine and it seems very possible to me that some day we'll
| live in a world that a billionaire willing to spend millions a
| year can solve their aging. Employ a team of researchers to
| figure out what's breaking and put it right, but that the
| average person never will be
| meowface wrote:
| I think it's the exact opposite. The day being old is no longer
| a disease and a path to inevitable death will be one of the
| greatest things to ever happen to humanity, now and forever
| into the future. Especially if you can retain a youthful,
| healthy brain and body no matter how old you are.
|
| An old tyrannical movie villain dies and a to-be old tyrannical
| movie villain is born. Billions of people shouldn't be
| sentenced to death just because the world might be a bit better
| off if a few people weren't immortal.
| dangerlibrary wrote:
| Pretty sure the possible world being lamented in the GP
| comment is not "everyone gets to live forever and stay
| healthy and youthful" but instead "there exist expensive,
| parasitic procedures which will allow some rich people to
| have drastically extended lifespans."
| inglor_cz wrote:
| _parasitic procedures_
|
| You can be almost sure that once the underlying mechanism
| is known, the necessary stuff will be synthetised instead
| of being transferred from a young person to an older one.
| If only to guarantee stable supply, consistent quality and
| rule out accidental transmission of various pathogens from
| the donor.
| hulitu wrote:
| As a computer i find your trust in technology amusing.
| The underlying mechanism of a heart, for example, is
| known. But they still search for pigs to take hearts for
| transplant.
| karagenit wrote:
| I dunno, we understand the underlying mechanism of blood
| pretty well, but we're still a long way off from being
| able to (economically) synthesize blood for transfusion.
| kiba wrote:
| _An old tyrannical movie villain dies and a to-be old
| tyrannical movie villain is born. Billions of people shouldn
| 't be sentenced to death just because the world might be a
| bit better off if a few people weren't immortal._
|
| Tyrants aren't even forever even if they never die of old
| age. After all, tyrants can meet their end through constantly
| replacing their followers with yes-men to the point of
| becoming increasingly detached from reality. This may prevent
| them from noticing certain features of reality such as
| military incompetence of their force.
| solfox wrote:
| Death is a beautiful happening that we should not fear so
| much. It allows growth and transmutation of stagnant
| ideology.
| [deleted]
| inglor_cz wrote:
| For me, death is not the main problem, but the long, drawn out
| period of slowly coming apart definitely is. I would very much
| prefer not to spend last 15 years of my life crippled from
| multiple degenerative diseases of old age.
|
| Most of the longevity research is trying to stretch healthspan.
| Stretching lifespan as such is a nice side effect.
|
| We aren't likely to live forever anyway.
| kiba wrote:
| Living longer is entangled with living healthier anyway.
| noneeeed wrote:
| Having watched my mum, and now my dad decline in old age I
| couldn't agree more.
|
| I don't like the idea of dying, but the slow slide into
| immobile sinility is positively terrifying.
|
| I'm in my 40s. I've resolved to look after my health not to
| live longer, but to extend my health for as long as possible.
| I'm determined to stay active, mobile and
| socially/intelectually engaged for as long as I can, partly
| for my self, but also for my kids.
| kiba wrote:
| Death is just a horrible thing that happens. The facts that it
| come equally for both heroes and villains doesn't change that.
| atoav wrote:
| Death is just a thing that happens. Whether it is horrible,
| sad, a relief or a reason to celebrate depends on whom you
| ask about whose death at which point in time.
|
| The suicide of Hitler certainly was a horrible tragedy to his
| close family and those who believed into him -- for many
| others it was a reason to celebrate. Similarily death of a
| young family member can be traumatic to the max, while the
| death of grandmother which everybody (including herself)
| already accepted and comes after a live well lived can be
| even have a certain beauty to it.
|
| Death is not that simple.
| daenz wrote:
| There's a number of comments here poking fun at the "conspiracy
| theory" aspect of this. Do people really believe it is a "crazy
| idea" that ultra rich amoral people would fund research into
| controversial life and health extension, even at the expense at
| younger people?
| beached_whale wrote:
| I wonder how long until this is a thing some people do; like the
| blood transfusions from younger/healthy people.
| kornhole wrote:
| Russell manages to give a laugh at even the most disturbing
| topics. Here is is his show about the huge industry of blood
| extraction. https://youtu.be/82pOL361zUk
| SemanticStrengh wrote:
| Btw we can significantly increase blood production via Epo. The
| question is wether blood from cows/pigs rejuvenate. It could
| get an industrial scale.
| zuminator wrote:
| Better would be if there's a way to mass produce the fluid in a
| lab.
| rossdavidh wrote:
| My immediate first thought on reading the headline.
| bitwize wrote:
| Gavin Belson is going to have a brain boy in his dotage.
| thebeardisred wrote:
| Apparently you, rossdavidh, and I are all on the same
| wavelength.
|
| I was imagining Elon and Jeff keeping a stable with the
| equivalent of vampire "blood bags".
| pc86 wrote:
| I mean there's a Silicon Valley episode where Gavin has a
| "blood boy."
| JacobThreeThree wrote:
| For the curious: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBA0AH-
| LSbo
| mcguire wrote:
| " _We drink elixirs that we refine_
|
| _From the juices of the dying_ "
|
| Shriekback, Nemesis, 1985.
| NGRhodes wrote:
| It's a new market for Jiffylube.
| heavyset_go wrote:
| It'll always creep me out that medical vampirism is a thing.
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| How long untill our billionairs people will be basically like
| aztec gods demanding human sacrafice for new organs
| pphysch wrote:
| Yesterday
| tomcam wrote:
| Me to my kid: So, did you have a good day?
|
| My kid: Sure, pops, why?
|
| Me:Well, I have a little favor to ask...
| pengaru wrote:
| Haven't similar things been observed with blood transfusions of
| young blood into the elderly, which was then found to actually be
| unnecessary - even just diluting the blood with something neutral
| and clean produced similar results.
|
| "The solution to pollution is dilution"
| ninesnines wrote:
| same lab actually!
| candiddevmike wrote:
| All the more reason to donate blood.
| mullingitover wrote:
| Actually it was nothing to do with adding/removing blood, the
| treatment worked with synthetic serum albumin[1].
|
| [1] https://www.lifespan.io/news/recombinant-serum-albumin-
| incre...
| noneeeed wrote:
| I believe there are good health reasons to donate. I forget
| the details, but it stimulates positive processes in the
| body. I think the effect is marginal, but it's nice to know
| you get a small personal bonus from doing something nice for
| other people.
| throwntoday wrote:
| I've actually been regularly donating for years for that
| very reason. I figured my body will just create new blood
| to fill in the gap and much like changing power steering
| fluid, after enough time it's mostly new stuff.
| allendoerfer wrote:
| But your blood is created by cells dividing and they
| cannot do so unlimited. Your DNA shortens and you run out
| of room for mistakes proteins make while translating it.
| entangledqubit wrote:
| Now I just need to figure out how to donate brain fluid...
| aeternum wrote:
| Brain fluid = spinal fluid, sampling it is a somewhat
| common procedure, just a larger needle and more
| uncomfortable.
| amelius wrote:
| And I suppose a larger failure and fatality rate (?)
| api wrote:
| Could it be this simple? Shit just builds up in the blood that
| the liver and kidneys and stuff are not 100% efficient at
| removing? So you just need to... get rid of it or dilute it?
|
| I mean that can't possibly be a full solution but could a major
| "win" on life span or at least health span be as simple as some
| kind of dialysis session?
|
| Could this also be a hidden mechanism involved in some of that
| hyperbaric oxygen chamber evidence for life/health extension?
| Maybe all that oxygen oxidizes and destroys some of this stuff.
| bawolff wrote:
| I don't understand why dilluting it would work here - either
| its filterable and it would get filtered regardless (e.g.
| drinking water would be enough) or it wont be and the
| dillutant would just be filtered
| pengaru wrote:
| My lay person assumption is it's more complicated than that,
| just knowing how the body is always conserving resources and
| adapting to changing conditions. I'd expect the body's
| natural mechanisms responsible for this to wind down
| operations the more you intervened on its behalf.
|
| It's obviously the right choice in the elderly/ill, but for a
| healthy young person maybe it's better to exercise/strengthen
| the body's natural abilities in these departments. I think
| one of the arguments for intermittent fasting is to clean up
| the detritus being kept around for energy sake, via natural
| mechanisms...
| DoreenMichele wrote:
| Exercise and fasting are two known and proven ways to clean
| up the tissues of the body, yes.
| SemanticStrengh wrote:
| And most importantly, sleep and the glymphatic system.
| There are many substances that promote Autophagy though.
| DoreenMichele wrote:
| For the brain, yes.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25427090
| SemanticStrengh wrote:
| It is that simple to some extent, recycling and resource
| control is a major factor in aging. Targets: Autophagy,
| senolytics (don't take senolytics), lysosomes, metabolic
| rate, proteasome,chaperone proteins,amyloids,Lipofuscin.
|
| The best example of stuff literally accumulating
| macroscopically in your body (besides the impressive images
| of Lipofuscin) is metals accumulation in bones. They cause a
| lot of damage, including a major cause of neurodegeneration.
| They can be removed via chelators.
|
| BTW I would avoid hyperbaric at all cost even if hornesis is
| a thing. Oxygen is literally the reason we are all slowly
| dying, we oxidize and implode. But don't refrain from
| breathing, hypoxia incurs more damage. If you want to prevent
| oxidation you need Skq1.
| [deleted]
| jasfi wrote:
| So drinking more water would be enough?
| pengaru wrote:
| This isn't my area of expertise at all.
|
| A personal experience that comes to mind is when my childhood
| cat developed kidney disease.
|
| She drank plenty of water, urinated excessively, and her
| blood still became toxic without regular (~daily)
| intervention in the form of adding saline to her blood
| intravenously. Like a light switch she'd resume normal life
| after the saline bag emptied into her blood, then slowly
| become ill again in the next 24-48hrs.
| sitkack wrote:
| You must have loved that cat very much.
| samstave wrote:
| No, he just had a lot of extra saline.
|
| J/K
|
| ---
|
| I had a cat when I was in my 20s that got into a fight
| some eve...
|
| Its face got infected and blew up. It was $8,000 for
| surgery, and I couldnt afford it - so had to put her
| down... but I did love that cat, and I would have paid it
| if I had it...
| Karawebnetwork wrote:
| Pet insurances are very useful for such situations. They
| cover you for big surgeries and make those small
| procedures almost invisible in your monthly budgets.
| ntoskrnl wrote:
| My cat had (likely) something similar and needed to
| regularly be given subcutaneous saline fluid. He learned
| pretty quick to associate me stabbing him, with him
| feeling better. That kind of thing becomes easy once you
| get into the routine.
| pengaru wrote:
| You've jogged my memory, it was subcutaneous not
| intravenous for my childhood cat as well. The saline
| would form a bulge under the skin before diffusing into
| the body. It wasn't something I did myself, we were
| bringing our cat to the vet to have it done until my
| parents tired of it.
| three_seagrass wrote:
| Was the cat checked for diabetes?
|
| Excessively drinking water, excessive urination, and renal
| failure are all co-morbidities for cats. Either way, kudos
| for helping them.
| pengaru wrote:
| Honestly I don't really know what all was checked. We
| brought her into the vet when she wasn't eating and
| behaving lethargically, they said her kidneys were
| failing and we'd have to bring her in regularly for
| saline bags or learn to administer them ourselves.
| nobody9999 wrote:
| >Was the cat checked for diabetes?
|
| >Excessively drinking water, excessive urination, and
| renal failure are all co-morbidities for cats. Either
| way, kudos for helping them.
|
| Those particular symptoms are common (in cats at least)
| to feline hyperthyroidism, which is significantly more
| common than feline diabetes.
|
| Not saying it wasn't Diabetes, but Hyperthyroidism seems
| more likely.
| LargoLasskhyfv wrote:
| possibly related:
| https://duckduckgo.com/?q=cats+flame+retardant
| samstave wrote:
| This is why I want a personal stem-cell account.
|
| I would like an account of various bodily components, grown from
| my personal stem-cells, for injection / growth / use as I see
| fit.
|
| My Stem Cells My Choice.
|
| ---
|
| (for example, I want to regrow my eyeballs.)
| SemanticStrengh wrote:
| > My Stem Cells My Choice We need a political movement Strong
| agree but I'm not aware wether adult stem cells can be grown
| into whole organs. It's true that e.g the spleen can respawn
| after ablation so definitely not impossible. Although of course
| the graal is your sperm, it is a DNA that is 0 years old, you
| can't make it any younger! Growing foetuses without brains
| might be a real possibility and the ultimate medecine
| breakthrough.
|
| Note that your eyeball metabolism can be significantly
| rejuvenated, e.g retinalamin often reverse blindness in humans.
| Or Skq1/visomiten. Glaucoma and macular degeneration are
| totally solved problems. As for myself I want to shrink my
| eyeballs (myopia) but this is not pharmacologically doable
| (because extremely undefunded) although Berberine do very
| significantly slow the myopia progress.
| patbwill wrote:
| Seems a perfect movie plot: A villain kidnaps children to extract
| brain fluid looking for the immortality :-(
| yazaddaruvala wrote:
| This is basically the side-plot of
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter_Ascending
| bigodbiel wrote:
| Q Productions presents!
|
| As conspiracy theory, it predates Trump/Qanon, we've had David
| Icke with his adrenochrome from children sucking reptilian
| royalties
| klyrs wrote:
| Turn that to 11; Tad Williams' Otherland is among my favorite
| reads.
| abduhl wrote:
| Finally we have a way for the old to use and take advantage of
| the future they've stolen from the younger generations over the
| past two decades.
| davesque wrote:
| These kinds of articles give me the creeps. As interesting as the
| science is, I imagine this also encourages a bunch of silicon
| valley millionaires and billionaires to essentially become
| vampires.
| daenz wrote:
| The show Silicon Valley had a small story arc that involved
| this kind of thing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBA0AH-LSbo
| aeternum wrote:
| Vampires are unbecoming.
|
| This is why the SV billionaires need to create the metaverse.
| The matrix had a the right idea, just keep the young plugged in
| to VR and use machines to do the dirty work.
| [deleted]
| NegativeLatency wrote:
| Blood boy -> brain boy
| Karawebnetwork wrote:
| On the reverse side of the coin, I would love to be able to
| extend the life of my parents by giving them liquids that my
| body is able to replenish.
| davesque wrote:
| Very good counter point :).
| ninesnines wrote:
| this above article is kind of inflammatory, however, this paper
| is incredibly interesting.
|
| I read it this morning and the concept of changing CSF in order
| to have an increase in oligodendrocyte progenitor cell
| proliferation and differentiation is such a creative idea; a lot
| of the idea has focused on increasing flow in order to move
| waste, etc with csf. I think this concept that CSF is also acting
| as an important mechanism to moving factors that will cause up
| regulation, etc, is very novel.
|
| honestly one of my favourite papers in the last five years, I am
| obsessed.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| Modifying CSF turnover is not particularly novel, but I do
| think it is generally overlooked. CSF production cycling is
| greatly reduced in the elderly and and there are a lot of
| connections to memory diseases such as alzheimers.
|
| A few medical device startups have attacked the problem with
| promising results. Unfortunately, VC and national funding orgs
| aren't particularly interested in device based solutions
| because pills and injections are perpetually 5 years out.
|
| I'm aware of at least one that was able to halt or reverse
| alzheimers in a 200 patient trial, but folded after they
| couldnt get funding to move forward.
| SemanticStrengh wrote:
| I remember seeing a drug/substance that potentiated the
| glymphatic system filtration but I just can't find it again,
| it's been a year..
| ninesnines wrote:
| yes yes I know that increasing CSF flow is not that novel
| (anymore e.g. last couple of years). you can increase it with
| cerebral blood flow, and you can do this with sleep,
| respiration, visual stimuli, etc.
|
| however, the ideas of 1) replacing csf from young to older
| mice and 2) the idea that there are factors in CSF that are
| being delivered to other areas of the brain and promoting
| cell proliferation: that's pretty novel.
|
| all of the literature right now points to csf in terms of
| waste clearance and csf is painted as almost a river that
| picks up components and moves waste (e.g. amyloid beta) from
| the periarterial areas in the parenchyma and then out through
| the perivenous areas into the lymphatic system. and this
| means that the idea of delivery of promoting factors is
| really interesting.
| mleonhard wrote:
| Can you share any more information about the medical device
| that showed efficacy against Alzheimers in the 200-patient
| trial?
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| This is one that I thought was compelling.[1] The trial
| ultimately failed but if you read the results the post-hoc
| analysis, it showed promise in mild and moderate subgroups
| of the ITT population. Most drugs today don't even target
| mild AD, but go after pre-symptomatic patients.
|
| There was also benefit across most measures, but just not
| of statistical significance.
|
| The trial had some major problems with appropriate
| controls, and is widely cited as a poster child for why the
| FDA should not require a control group to undergo invasive
| brain-surgery, and how this can taint the results.
|
| It also showed a 89% reduction in amyloid Beta, the same
| proxy measure Biogen's aducanumab was recently approved
| based on.
|
| https://n.neurology.org/content/neurology/71/3/202.full.pdf
| mwint wrote:
| I'm curious, what is your favorite paper of all time (the
| specification of 'last five years' sounds like it's not this
| one?)
| SemanticStrengh wrote:
| I don't have a favorite but one that stands out is the
| resuscitation of cryogenized hamsters https://royalsocietypub
| lishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.1956.005...
| ninesnines wrote:
| holy cinnamon I've never seen this -- brilliant
| ninesnines wrote:
| ah there are a lot of really nice old nature/science
| neuroscience articles that are really clear! papers were more
| simple and clear 20 years ago
| SemanticStrengh wrote:
| The papers from the 90s are generally my favorites.
| bigodbiel wrote:
| Yay another hip SV startup just around the corner!
| jamal-kumar wrote:
| not content with our blood and feces, now boomers are after our
| cerebrospinal fluid
| vmception wrote:
| Just don't do it to the Eldians.
|
| In all seriousness, I wonder if this can be synthesized. A
| transport layer for brain conductivity, just replace the fluid.
| Maybe create an even better fluid than what the young hosts have.
| Llamamoe wrote:
| Not quite the same, but there exists a nootrooic called
| Cerebrolysin which is made from enzymatically treated pig brain
| peptides, including all sorts of brain growth factors.
| vasco wrote:
| I wonder if taking something with brain growth factors makes
| you more or less likely to suffer from more serious
| consequences if you have brain trauma. ie Are you more or
| less likely to have a serious concussion after hitting your
| head.
| SemanticStrengh wrote:
| I cannot answer your question but growth factors are
| extremely effective after a concussion/AVC/TBI/stroke.
| People and doctors are extremely uneducated and therefore
| people that have TBI will have high persistent damage. The
| truth is, most of the damage is generally not done during
| the trauma, but during the weeks/month following it.. And
| those damages can be for the most part prevented by taking
| protectors, which as I said, isn't done in practice because
| science bad
| a9h74j wrote:
| > just replace the fluid
|
| Jiffy Brain franchises on the way.
| vmception wrote:
| Imagine the fraudulent upsells.
| abracadaniel wrote:
| Your nasal filters are covered in a mucus, do you want us
| to replace them?
| monkeybutton wrote:
| I hear you can go an extra 4,000 hours between changes with
| synthetics.
| spacephysics wrote:
| In before the AJ people start saying "see?! Adrenochromes!"
|
| Surely this will give more fuel to the conspiratorial fire.
| noneeeed wrote:
| Who are the "AJ people"? Is this yet another bunch of
| conspiracy nutters?
| black_13 wrote:
| Jeff will be harvesting the cerebrospinal fluid of his interns
| SemanticStrengh wrote:
| See also cerebrolysin in humans. Yes google it. Now.
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(page generated 2022-05-12 23:00 UTC)