[HN Gopher] Long-term benzodiazepine use causes synapse loss and...
___________________________________________________________________
Long-term benzodiazepine use causes synapse loss and cognitive
deficits in mice
Author : sternmere
Score : 147 points
Date : 2022-05-14 20:37 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (scitechdaily.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (scitechdaily.com)
| pizza wrote:
| Much of the brain is about error correction of information
| transfer, bc two neurons have a typical *less than ten percent*
| chance of a message from A reaching B.
|
| So if I were to put on my speculator's hat for a second, having
| something that destroys neural connections at a local scale would
| probably be compensated with increased volume of noisy
| communication at a global scale.
|
| And having heard ex-benzo addicts describe the withdrawal as like
| having your brain lit on fire, well, that tracks..
| johntfella wrote:
| be interesting to study someone, or a mouse I guess with said
| damages and doses of ambien for repair
| (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaneurology/article-abstr...)
| foolfoolz wrote:
| i think mental health medication has been borderline fraudulent
| for over 50 years. the drugs rarely beat placebos. when they work
| the methodologies of study are rarely replicated. this is just
| hanging some giant exit sign in front of desperate people saying
| we can get out out of this mess all the while knowing it's a
| gamble. a gamble you're paying with your health and someone else
| is winning by taking the money.
|
| the "mental health movement" ignores this and is mostly lip
| service. clean your room. take a walk.
|
| no one really cares about you but you and learning how to care
| for yourself is so hard. i hope we can train people in proper
| self care so we don't need to prescribe their life away
| andrewinardeer wrote:
| > Long-term use of benzodiazepines has been linked to cognitive
|
| Like, no shit?
| ppg677 wrote:
| I take a half tablet (10mg) of Xanax every once in awhile. (Maybe
| once a month on average).
|
| It makes me feel so relaxed.
|
| I knew it was too good to be true.
| b0tch7 wrote:
| I take 5mg about once a week which I thought was pretty
| harmless :(
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| You're not taking high doses every day, which is what the
| article is about.
| randomopining wrote:
| Was just in Mexico and took them 3-4 days in a row (0.5mg - 2mg)
| to sleep after drinking or the next morning. Slept amazing those
| few nights. Felt terrible 2 days after the last one, and even now
| close to a week later I don't even feel that good. Pretty sure
| they are terrible for you.
| s5300 wrote:
| Thank you for informing us of the fact that you take benzos
| with alcohol in your system.
|
| Self PSA that probably nobody should take your opinions
| seriously.
| aaaaaaaaaaab wrote:
| Benzo after drinking? Jesus...
| colechristensen wrote:
| That's quite a lot, especially mixed with alcohol.
| jimmar wrote:
| I took 1 benzodiazepine bill once about 15 years ago and I still
| remember the effect--instant total relaxation. I remember
| thinking that it felt _too_ good and that it 's something I
| shouldn't let myself have again. Hearing about its long term
| effects, I feel somewhat lucky.
| op00to wrote:
| When I am having a bad panic attack and take 1 Ativan, if I am
| lucky I go from being convinced I am dying to able to function
| with some difficulty. Lotsa brains, lots of different reactions
| to the drug.
| ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote:
| I was prescribed some after a severe accident and it really
| helped me, both during while dealing with the pain and stress,
| and after to get over the trauma and anxiety attacks.
|
| I've always been fervently anti-meds but sometimes when you're
| in a tough spot they are magical and going without is the worse
| alternative.
|
| For what it's worth after 2 years of occasional use, I have no
| addiction at all. I've been tracking my use daily for the past
| year and as my anxiety has waned I've stopped taking them
| entirely.
| colechristensen wrote:
| The first time I took Xanax I cleaned my kitchen and it went
| from mildly embarrassing to quite presentable in an hour or
| two. I could actually execute the things I wanted to do without
| fighting though ridiculous feelings.
|
| I am treated like an addict or ridiculous when I tell doctors
| I'd rather not "try SSRIs" or a series of strange sedating
| substances because they're all so afraid of prescribing
| something with addiction potential (and the regulators trying
| to stop them).
| codeulike wrote:
| In mice
|
| https://twitter.com/justsaysinmice?s=09
| dang wrote:
| Ok, we've inmiced the title above.
|
| I had to add the c-word, though ("causes"). The article uses it
| several times, so I suppose it's ok for the title. Please let's
| not repeat the usual "C is not C" business.
| SemanticStrengh wrote:
| anyone knows wether ghb is neurotoxic?
| Commodore63 wrote:
| Jordan Peterson had a horrible time with these drugs and resorted
| to extreme measures to get off them (eight days in an induced
| coma!) Even today he might still be on them - he is pretty cagey
| about his present pharma situation when asked about it on
| podcasts.
|
| https://nationalpost.com/health/jordan-peterson-benzodiazepi...
|
| Horrible drug.
| seattle_spring wrote:
| It's also pretty obvious that he is cognitively impaired.
| s5300 wrote:
| Peterson is a verified idiot with nonexistent self-control. Not
| the slightest modicum of it.
|
| Basing anything off of his antics is asinine. So weird to see
| people who put him on a pedestal on HN.
|
| & benzos aren't "horrible drugs"
|
| People who don't know how to manage themselves and their usage
| of them are horrible people though, especially when they try to
| cut down others who have no issues using them responsibly,
| which sometimes literally saves their entire lives.
| 77pt77 wrote:
| He claimed he had no idea what they were.
|
| Someone that identifies as a neuroscientist.
|
| He knew very well but thought he was special.
|
| The only thing special is that he went cold turkey (extremely
| dangerous) and had to be placed into an induced coma in Russia
| because no one else would do it.
| SemanticStrengh wrote:
| few people know it but you can fight a benzo addiction with
| flumazenil injections. You can even do it yourself if you have to
| avoid multiyear waiting lists.. (e.g. OTC on indiamart) however
| you must be extremely extremely careful to take the minimum
| needed dose, if you take too much you risk passing out/epilepsy.
| but at the medical dose, it is safe and will accelerate recovery
| time and quality dramatically.
| cosmiccatnap wrote:
| I thought this was well known as Peterson effect.
| listless wrote:
| I take .5 mg Klonopin for sleep every night.
| anonuser123456 wrote:
| Not a great idea in the long run.
| tinyhouse wrote:
| Why there aren't more studies on humans? It's not difficult to
| find people who have been taking benzos or other related drugs
| for years.
| colechristensen wrote:
| I researched long term impairment in humans for benzos and was
| only able to find very mild (i.e. on the edge of measurability)
| cognitive impairment which was mostly recoverable after a
| period of abstinence.
| sedeki wrote:
| Is it reasonable to assume that the same thing applies to the
| Z-drugs too, specifically Zolpidem?
|
| I have a family member that I'm worried about, that has taken
| Zolpidem for several years straight (apart from minor breaks in
| between prescription refills because of overconsumption during
| the previous refill...).
| mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote:
| From skimming the article, it seems they've linked this effect
| to benzos interacting with a specific protein in microglia.
| This is not the interaction benzos share with Z-drugs, which is
| modulation of the GABA-A receptor. So it seems unclear whether
| this can be extrapolated to Zolpidem.
|
| However, Z-drugs(and benzos as a sleep aid) generally should
| not be used daily for longer than a few weeks until a better
| solution is found. Unfortunately, doctors often do this anyway,
| following the path of least resistance, I suppose.
|
| I wouldn't worry about any kind of brain damage, but I would
| recommend reviewing their options, maybe seeing another doctor.
| Lots of people can manage just fine with something like
| extended release melatonin, or indeed nothing.
| gzer0 wrote:
| As zolpidem is associated with drug tolerance and substance
| dependence, its prescription guidelines are only for severe
| insomnia and short periods of use at the lowest effective dose
| [1].
|
| Zolpidem increases risk of depression, falls and bone fracture,
| poor driving, suppressed respiration, and has been associated
| with an increased risk of death [2].
|
| I would recommend you to seek a second opinion from another
| medical professional about whether this family member should
| perhaps slowly taper off of the Zolpidem.
|
| [1] https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ta77/chapter/1-Guidance
|
| [2]
| https://escholarship.org/content/qt08d9f3d5/qt08d9f3d5.pdf?t...
| smithmayowa wrote:
| Just came off benzos withdrawal those things are insanely
| horrible, delirium, depersonalization, derealization, muscle
| tremors, and persistent headaches were some of the symptoms I
| experienced. Thank God I did not have seizures.
| SemanticStrengh wrote:
| take magnesium lthreonate for an effective synapse recovery
| symlinkk wrote:
| You know what else causes brain damage? Anxiety
| SemanticStrengh wrote:
| The world of medecine is degenerate. Sustainable, non addictive
| and non neurotoxic anxiolytics exists: the #1 being opipramol the
| sigmaergic. emoxypine (which btw cure hangover) and guanfacine
| are worth mentioning. Maybe beta blockers to some extent. NMDA
| antagonists such as memantine have side effects but are not
| neurotoxic to my knowledge and there are milder ones such as mg-
| lthreonate. afobazole is interesting but its pharmacology is too
| weird to be sure. Etifoxine is revolutionnary, it double axon
| length growth rate so ironically a great cure to benzo
| neurodamage. its acts on the _mitochondria_ benzodiazepine
| receptor. It 's unclear to me wether it is subject to a tolerance
| effect and if so if it is lower. Also etifoxine can interact
| badly with other drugs on the liver. Note that there exists
| ultra-atypical mechanisms, such as inositol megadose or tofisopam
| but they are not firstline.
|
| So yeah, basically opipramol and guanfacine should be what humans
| take as first line. Glycine is a nice obvious augmentation (kinda
| absurd that people forget about the second inhibitor
| neurotransmitter in the brain, especially since the effect feel
| nice and doesn't really lead to tolerance). if you have benzo
| neurodamage, take magnesium lthreonate which is a very potent
| synaptotrophic.
|
| also fun fact: the benzo cartel was so strong it was the most
| prescribed drug in the world, all classes, in the 70s
| sph wrote:
| I have a hard time believing that while the current status quo
| is suboptimal, there's some little known compounds that are, as
| you say, revolutionary and with little side effects.
| Pharmacological research is a constantly moving target, there
| is no scientific nor economic reason that a supposedly
| "perfect" remedy remains unknown. Sounds too much like thinly
| veiled conspiracy, or perhaps they're not as perfect as you're
| suggesting.
|
| That said, it's not my area of competence, so if you know _why_
| opipramol and guanfacine are ignored compared to benzos and
| other anxiolytic, you should probably explain that.
|
| EDIT: re: guanfacine, I know it's a second-line treatment for
| ADHD, it was previously used to treat hypertension, but this is
| the first time I hear it might be applicable as an anxiolytic.
| It does certainly have side effects, though not as bad as being
| neurodegenerative like benzodiazepines.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guanfacine
| gavinray wrote:
| I have personal experience with Guanfacine (and Clonidine),
| beta blockers (Propanolol/Labetalol), Etifoxine, Phenibut,
| and a myriad of benzos.
|
| Long history of RX for anxiety disorders, which I eventually
| tapered off of and quit due to dependence.
|
| Can attest to Etifoxine being effective without side effects,
| guanfacine and clonidine being mildly effective. Beta
| blockers never did much for me but YMMV.
| retrac wrote:
| Anecdotally, I can attest to the surprising efficacy of alpha
| blockers. I have used prazosin as a sleep aid for the last
| decade, a few times a month.
|
| There were some limited studies that suggest it is effective in
| helping sleep quality in people with nightmares and PTSD. Now,
| I don't have PTSD, but I do have a mind that will not shut off
| at night, running in useless circles that jolt me back awake.
| It does nothing for the racing mind, but my body's
| physiological reaction to my emotional state is lessened. I
| _physically_ relax, quite literally in smooth muscle activation
| terms, and apparently that lets me get to sleep.
|
| Beta blockers are probably a bit more heavy duty, but they do
| appear to be quite effective at treating performance-related
| anxieties from another small study. Shakes? Chills? Dizziness
| and blood pressure spikes? From the discussion I had with my
| psychiatrist, I think the working hypothesis is that treating
| the physical symptoms of anxiety is an effective intervention
| here, as the discomforting experiences that the initial anxiety
| triggers, creates a feedback cycle. (Oh god, now I'm sweating
| and flushed, everyone's gonna notice...!)
|
| It's interesting when I explain it to new physicians when they
| take a history. Like my current GP. Initial surprise. A
| psychiatrist prescribed that? For... anxiety? A pause. Yes,
| that actually does makes sense. Just never thought of it
| before.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| High blood pressure and anxiety can both cause similar
| symptoms. Tightness in the chest, for example. Your body
| tends to mistake one for the other.
|
| Treating high-blood pressure with an ACE inhibitor (which
| does not treat anxiety) can reduce anxiety simply by
| relieving symptoms that feel like anxiety.
|
| Beta blockers have the nice effect of directly treating both
| anxiety and high blood pressure.
| SemanticStrengh wrote:
| Good to hear! Glycine 3 gram before sleep can be useful as a
| combination. it relaxes the body too and relaxe the mind
| also. There are interesting studies showing positive effects
| on sleep and no tolerance.
|
| magnesium l threonate before sleep, the lthreonate variant
| penetarte the brain far more than regular magnesium, and it
| acts as a mild NMDA antagonist, which means it decrease
| maximal excitation. it is also a great synaptotrophic.
| cameronh90 wrote:
| Propranolol is very commonly prescribed for anxiety in the
| UK. I take it as needed and it works wonders, but it does
| make me a bit lethargic. It doesn't completely eliminate the
| low level anxiety but it stops it ending up in a viscous
| panic cycle.
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| Widely used for anxiety in my country as well but not an
| optimal choice due to the cardiovascular effects. As you
| noted, it can cause fatigue.
| SemanticStrengh wrote:
| there exists beta blockers that mostly do not cross the
| blood brain barrier, and therefore have less effect on
| fatigue
| blantonl wrote:
| _also fun fact: the benzo cartel was so strong it was the most
| prescribed drug in the world, all classes, in the 70s_
|
| "Mother's little helper" was a term coined during the 60s and
| 70s (Diazepam - aka Valium)
| [deleted]
| gavinray wrote:
| Etifoxine can be purchased from other countries and has studies
| showing comparable effects to classic benzodiazepines for acute
| panic attacks, but without being addictive.
|
| Personal experience, it doesn't have noticeable psychoactive
| effects like benzos do but does block stress response + panic.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etifoxine
| rhexs wrote:
| Emoxypine doesn't seem to have any English studies, or has
| incredibly few. So it may or may not be useful, but I sure as
| heck can't tell.
| SemanticStrengh wrote:
| here's 438 studies for you
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=Emoxypine&sort=date the
| marketing name is mexidol. Emoxypine is a wonder drug for
| health, it is one of the most potent superoxide antioxidant
| and has an incredible range of body protective effetcs see
| e.g.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emoxypine#Mechanism_of_action
|
| look at the pictures and admire the amount of saved brain
| volume https://www.researchgate.net/publication/221738761_Eva
| luatio...
| rhexs wrote:
| Interesting. What's the quality of Russian medical research
| versus western? What journals are considered prestigious?
| (Not trying to troll -- I honestly have no idea and can't
| judge it accurately).
| SemanticStrengh wrote:
| I have much more respect for russian papers in
| pharmacology in general than for your average american
| study. There are many reasons to this: 1) a lot of their
| research is public. They don't have broken incentives,
| e.g. they can study the tech that the body use, such as
| peptides. Big pharma can't leverage endogenous peptides
| because they're not patentable, a true tragedy that
| considerably sets back medecine progress. 2) they study
| outside of the boxe things, they are not afraid to do
| human trials, they have expertise in gerontology
| (oxidative stress, bioenergetics, etc) which are often
| very lacking in american studies.
|
| also, those russian researches are generally validated by
| non-russian working groups.
|
| as an example, many of the favorites nootropics people
| experience have been discovered in russia (racetams,
| bromantane, etc)
| rhexs wrote:
| Thanks, interesting to get this perspective. I have seen
| a lot of interesting research chemicals and nootropics
| redditors are using, most of which are prescription drugs
| in Russia (semax, selank, probably others). Shame there
| doesn't seem to be any pharmaceutical crossover, would
| love to see some studies done in the West. I'd be too
| scared to experiment on myself.
| tunnuz wrote:
| I was prescribed Diazepam some time ago (and loved it). But as
| far as I know you're not supposed to be on benzodiazepines for
| very long?
| meowface wrote:
| >Experiments conducted by the researchers revealed that synapse
| loss in mice that were given a daily sleep-inducing dosage of the
| benzodiazepine diazepam for several weeks resulted in cognitive
| deficits.
|
| I know it's only in mice, but it's pretty scary if it also has
| this effect in humans even when only taking it for a few weeks.
| Based on the title, I was initially kind of expecting something
| like daily use for years.
| SemanticStrengh wrote:
| xan not workib
| sibeliuss wrote:
| As someone with a few family members addicted to Xanax (long
| term) and have repeatedly bore witness to the destruction, I can
| say with certainty that it's an evil drug. It's like the person
| crawls inside a space where they can safely project all of their
| anxieties onto others. Their problems becomes _your_ problems, a
| fully projected virtual experience. It 's definitely psychosis-
| like, and I've always wondered if there was some brain damage
| involved. Well, here's the answer to that.
| jmcgough wrote:
| Daily use of benzos is extremely bad in general - the physical
| addiction is not pleasant to withdraw from, and it significantly
| increases the risk of dementia in old age.
| trevorishere wrote:
| > dementia in old age.
|
| Spoke to a psychiatrist on this one. He was saying The Lancet
| longitudinal study was bunk and that Xanax use was not one of
| concern.
|
| I'm not saying he's correct, but he literally laughed at my
| objection to Xanax, including it's now very long history of use
| with an average dose of 6mg/day.
| twstdzppr wrote:
| Xanax use is cause for concern in general. Acutely it is
| safe, but chronic administration is definitively not, and not
| something to laugh about or take lightly.
| SemanticStrengh wrote:
| doctors often laugh at their own ignorance and pride
| mistrial9 wrote:
| this man laughed at you for suggesting this? Xanax is a
| "benzo" wikipedia tells me.. Consider the source
| fermentation wrote:
| Had some anxiety issues in France and a doctor that I met with
| (who I had trouble speaking to) prescribed daily benzos for a
| month. Towards the end of the month it felt like my body NEEDED
| the pills. It was scary.
| jmcgough wrote:
| Your brain chemistry acclimates to using a GABA agonist every
| day and will get out of whack if you stop taking it :( like
| anxiety will be WAY WORSE when going through withdrawal.
|
| I still use a benzo (lowest dose lamictal) but only about
| once a month when I need hit the panic button. It's really
| not meant to be a daily use drug, scared me when a friend was
| prescribed it as a daily medication.
| trevorishere wrote:
| Lamictal is not a benzo and must be used consistently
| (daily) to prevent SJS as it requires titration. Generally,
| those who need it (epileptic patients or those with bipolar
| disorder) must use it for the duration of their life.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| Lamictal is an anticonvulsant, not a benzo. I take it daily
| as a mood stabilizer for bipolar disorder.
| cameronh90 wrote:
| Daily use of benzos gave me sleep paralysis, false awakenings
| and made me sleep walk.
|
| Not saying that proves anything, but it was _scary_.
| [deleted]
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| This doesn't surprise me. I have Klonopin for as needed use.
| (Since early 2019, I've used 106 0.5mg pills, so not a
| significant amount.)
|
| Being bipolar, I find they are necessary for suitations my
| regular medication and coping mechanisms can't handle. Without
| them, living a normal life would be difficult.
|
| That said... benzos scare me. Taking one pill will calm me today,
| but at the expense for increased anxiety the next two.
|
| If I go to a convention, I'll have ramped up to my max dose
| around the second or third day. After that, it becomes less
| effective because I can't (and won't) increase it more. I've only
| gone five days at most and by the fifth day, my anxiety is the
| same it would be without medication. Coming off that afterwards
| is brutal.
|
| If I had another effective option, I would use it. I've tried
| very hard to "power through" my symptoms or find alternatives
| during my first year being diagnosed. My psychiatrist, therapist,
| and friends had to just about physically slap me to use them.
| zosima wrote:
| This is quite interesting as for a long time there has been some
| evidence that Benzodiazepine usage can increase the risk of
| Alzheimer's diseases and it has often shown up as a risk factor
| when doing large-scale database studies. Summary here:
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6960222/
|
| I won't jump to the conclusion that this is the mechanism, or be
| certain that the we are talking about causation rather than
| correlation, but evidence like this certainly tilts the weight
| towards causation.
| glerk wrote:
| Benzos are pretty terrible drugs in general. The physical
| addiction potential and withdrawal people are going through are
| enough to dissuade me from touching them. For folks dealing with
| anxiety, I recommend trying propranolol. It is not as powerful,
| but sometimes it is enough to achieve the desired effect and the
| side effects are way less severe.
| leach wrote:
| I take a benzo ICE as needed, but was on them for a while and
| never really noticed degenerative affects though I'm young
| though. Should I be worried?
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| From the article:
|
| > When diazepam medication was stopped, the effects lingered
| for a while but were eventually reversed.
|
| I think you'll be okay.
| leach wrote:
| That's good, I'm conflicted because they've helped me but
| they are nasty little drugs. I've only ever been prescribed
| would never take them recreationally.
|
| I was on them daily for a while and eventually, even though
| I never really worried or got anxious, other emotions where
| muted as well. I felt like I didn't need it anymore and my
| doctor didn't tapper me off them correctly so for two weeks
| strait I barely slept and had terrible withdrawal symptoms.
| Having them ICE is nice but I would never recommend them to
| people to take daily they are just to intense.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| Just a warning to anyone who has asthma, propranolol is a older
| beta blocker from the 1960s and has made asthma worse in
| various trials.
|
| My doctor and psychiatrist recommended I use other classes of
| medications.
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| Yes. Asthma is treated with beta agonists. Beta blockers will
| block the effect of the asthma medication.
| colechristensen wrote:
| Propranolol does almost, but not quite nothing for me. It does,
| however, put me on a daily(!) withdrawl cycle where when I'm on
| it, it does a small amount which is right up near the level of
| noticing, and when it wears off amplifies my normal symptoms.
|
| Xanax was the only thing I ever took that did more than took
| the edge off (or some things which just made me loopy, sleepy,
| and/or high), it could at appropriate dosages simply turn my
| symptoms off and I went about doing normal productive human
| things that I wanted to.
|
| But the state that I live in, and every doctor that I've met
| since I moved across the country has wanted to try every other
| drug in the book (again) before even considering, and none have
| thought raising the dosage beyond the literal smallest dose
| (despite me being 6'2" >200lbs). It is extremely frustrating.
| jotm wrote:
| Most drugs that actually work are terrible. If you're gonna
| abuse stimulants for relaxation, it's obvious to everyone but
| you that it will be a very bad time, for example.
|
| That said, the recommended dosages are basically bullshit. For
| anything, I'd say take 1/2 or 1/3 of what they recommend in the
| first few days/weeks and taper up.
|
| But please use your own brain when taking advice from
| strangers.
| natly wrote:
| I recommend working out, it helped me a ton with anxiety. It
| basically cured it (I don't work out much anymore but a short
| intense few months of hard workouts seems to have almost
| removed it from my system years afterwards).
| blagie wrote:
| There are sources of anxiety without clear solutions. I have
| a stalker. There's low-level harassment continuously, but
| every few months, she does something crazy, and my life is
| completely disrupted. I have no idea what to do about it.
|
| It's nearing a decade....
| Nextgrid wrote:
| Can police help?
|
| Alternatively, (non-violent) retaliation? Seems like
| there's no downside for this person to be harassing you.
| Creating a downside might make her think twice next time.
| cameronh90 wrote:
| Assuming GP is male, he probably doesn't want to do
| something that might be seen as being aggressive,
| harassing or upsetting to her, even if not violent.
|
| Threatening to involve the police is a common way women
| abuse men. You can of course involve the police yourself
| but they often won't listen.
|
| I had an ex try to create a situation where I would be
| framed for rape by creating fake social media accounts
| purporting to be me. Luckily she wasn't smart and the
| police saw that all the accounts were obviously created
| by her. Yet they still didn't help protect me from
| further harassment or do anything to her for trying to
| frame me and making false police reports.
|
| Sad as it is, probably best to just try and ignore her
| and consider going by an alias online and moving house.
| Dma54rhs wrote:
| I had similar experiences and police are pretty much
| useless in that case, flat out said since you're
| physically stronger than the stalker there's no threat to
| your life. Oh well... Its a constant torture.
| blagie wrote:
| My ex is smart, wealthy, and devotes most of her life to
| this. She smart enough that she rarely leave evidence,
| and when it's there, it's convoluted enough that you
| can't really act on it. For example, a drone fly-by
| leaves no evidence. A story about some convoluted 9-month
| scheme to frame me isn't something anyone will listen to,
| let alone pursue. If you walk in with a big pile of
| documentation, you look crazy, not them.
|
| The court system is a big hole to throw money into:
|
| 1) It is surprisingly impervious to actual evidence. A
| woman crying on the stand, with a bunch of fabrications,
| will be believed. A man showing documents won't be.
|
| 2) It's influenced by preparation and money. If the other
| party is willing to devote their whole life into this,
| and you want to live anything resembling a normal life,
| you're basically SOL.
|
| There isn't a magic fairy government agency who cares
| about this sort of thing.
|
| I don't think there's a solution.
|
| I was modestly famous before this, but I haven't done
| anything public in a half-decade because of this !@#$%.
| natly wrote:
| Sounds awful. My cause was definitely more caused by
| developmental period weird wiring, so definitely different.
| Hope you find some way to resolve it one day somehow.
| cameronh90 wrote:
| Interestingly working out is a trigger for my anxiety. I'm
| currently trying graded exposure therapy for exercise, but so
| far it's not working.
| fb03 wrote:
| Was about to say this.
|
| Do you also trigger while trying to exercise? I have had
| pretty intense panic attacks while trying to work. to the
| point of having dizziness, weakness, closing throat
| feelings, the works! Pretty shitty stuff. 15 minutes later,
| you are absolutely normal and feeling bummed and sometimes
| embarrassed as well.
|
| I would also not wish a panic attack to my worst enemy.
|
| What I'm trying to do now is short walks and getting more
| 'confidence'. I think what gets us/me is the "what if I
| trigger" thing.
|
| So, going slow helps build a little of confidence. That's
| my current plan, at least. I know an attack is bound to
| happen, and I will not win every time, but I'm not gonna be
| deterred by it. I know exercise helps a ton.
|
| Thank you for this reply and wish you well!
| orangepurple wrote:
| I had those exact symptoms from not eating sufficients
| amounts of salt combined with not drinking enough water.
| Now I aim for 7 grams of table salt per day. Low sodium
| symptoms are indistinguishable from "feeling like you are
| dying."
| natly wrote:
| This was the case for me too! :) I really hated running at
| the start because it triggered anxiety. In the end it
| turned out to be a blessing because it provided me with
| basically a safe (not socially connected etc) way to
| activate it at my own comfort and degree I was comfortable
| with and basically feel like my twisted up brain
| connections got smoothed out by doing it for a while.
| (Basically exposure therapy as you mention.) Lions mane may
| have been part of helping too but idk.
| fb03 wrote:
| That's my current plan as well. Just getting back to my
| exercise routine and work my fitness levels and also
| 'exposure'/'desensitization'.
|
| Wish you well!
| cycomanic wrote:
| Yes, it's unfortunate that exercise is not prescribed more
| for these issues as there are tons of studies showing the
| benefits of working out against depression, anxiety etc.. I
| think we should really be seeing a mechanism where doctors
| can prescribe time off for exercise to deal with mental or
| physical issues, without repercussions for the employee.
| Maybe it's too much of a hope to see that in the US, but at
| least in Europe.
| ilikeitdark wrote:
| Doctor gave me for anxiety in the day and sleeping at night. On
| it for way too long,and horrible. Definitely not worth it.
| transfire wrote:
| Benzos disrupt REM sleep. Eventually you will go mad.
| ldjkfkdsjnv wrote:
| The reality is many drugs have long term effects, we just can't
| see them yet. But if you are close to someone who is a user, over
| the long run you will notice differences. Sometimes its just that
| they don't have the same spark. Regardless, 100 years down the
| line we will look back in horror at the state of pharmaceutical
| drugs. All it takes is going to a doctor, saying you have
| anxiety, and the doctor pops out a script. His "medical degree"
| and insurance demands that he "treats" his patient.
| wit22145 wrote:
| > His "medical degree" and insurance demands that he "treats"
| his patient.
|
| Completely lost me here. Why does the doctor have air quotes
| around their medical degree? And what's wrong with treating
| disease? Or are you saying insurance requires unnecessary
| prescriptions? Because that's definitely not the case,
| insurance would prefer no prescriptions financially at least
| and the doc is paid the same either way. Overall I think you
| just have an axe to grind against medicine for some reason.
| It's not a perfect system but I don't think you really know
| what you're talking about and are concerned with the wrong
| things.
| heavyset_go wrote:
| SSRI-like drugs and drugs like buspirone are considered the
| gold standard for anxiety disorders now. They do not act like
| benzodiazepines at all in the brain.
| symlinkk wrote:
| How do they act? I just started taking buspirone for
| crippling social anxiety and I'm not sure if it's helping or
| not.
| [deleted]
| swayvil wrote:
| You are speaking beside his point.
| ZanyProgrammer wrote:
| You're taking a very specific article about benzos and making
| unsubstantiated leaps about medicine in general.
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| Benzodiazepines are not even first line treatments for anxiety
| though. More like a last resort. They are very useful in
| aborting panic attacks and that says a lot about the intensity
| of symptoms necessary to justify their use.
|
| SSRIs and SNRIs have a much better risk/benefit profile.
| Sertraline in particular is a really effective drug. I don't
| really understand why other doctors prescribe benzodiazepines
| so frequently but I'm not doing it.
| jotm wrote:
| If you look closer at others, you'll notice they have a new
| spark. But "new medication" won't be your first thought.
| bcook wrote:
| You've got a dangerous level of confidence.
| openknot wrote:
| >"But if you are close to someone who is a user, over the long
| run you will notice differences. Sometimes its just that they
| don't have the same spark."
|
| The loss of a spark can happen regardless of drug use. Work in
| an unsupportive environment over a long period of time, a
| breakup, or the failure to achieve a long-sought goal can cause
| a person to change over time. In addition, the underlying
| condition that the medication is treating may cause the effect,
| which could have been worse had the medication not been
| prescribed.
|
| It's plausible that medications may have understudied long-term
| effects, but there are too many confounding causes to attribute
| a behavioral change to long-term medication use.
| mikercampbell wrote:
| As someone who has had a long time relationship with Xanax,
| it quite literally saved my life. I was prescribed it for
| chronic nausea, and was 40lbs below my ideal weight.
|
| I've never been tempted to take any more than my prescribed
| dose, and so it's been a "healthy" relationship, but I'm
| working to discontinue my prescription for reasons other than
| this article.
|
| Not to be one of those "well, I use it and I'm fine and
| aren't tempted", on the contrary - I understand fully why
| people would feel the tugs of addiction.
|
| It's hard because I know I have an uphill battle to go. I use
| therapy and have seen benefits from psychedelics and
| medicinal cannabis, but it's literally a "pick your poison"
| battle.
|
| But also, it's hard to have a spark when you're not able to
| live a normal life without assistance.
|
| But in hindsight, I can see that this route has had it's
| costs and I'm excited to see who I am independent of it.
| ZanyProgrammer wrote:
| The reality is that many doctors these days will not prescribe
| large amounts of benzos, certainly not just willy nilly.
| ldjkfkdsjnv wrote:
| I'm not just talking about benzos, but also anti psychotics,
| amphetamines, statins, and basically the whole gamut. My
| brother is a pharmacist, and is constantly shocked by the
| prescriptions that healthy people bring in to get filled. The
| medical field has been unjustly given too much prestige.
| cstejerean wrote:
| And how does he know they are healthy?
| anonymoushn wrote:
| maybe my pharmacist can tell that I don't need
| methylphenidate because I have all my documents in order
| while I'm already on methylphenidate :)
| sascha_sl wrote:
| "You can't have ADHD, if you had ADHD, you could not have
| driven here for an hour" -- real thing that happened to
| someone I know.
| throwaway284534 wrote:
| This is a exactly the kind of puritanical catch-22 that
| entrenches every corner ADHD treatment. "Oh, your
| justification for access to the _high-inducing_ , party
| drug of amphetamine is that it'll cure your lack of
| focus? Well, if these dangerously addictive drugs so
| effective, then surely you can handle 30 day
| prescriptions with no refills."
|
| God forbid your prescription runs out on a weekend or
| holiday when your doctor's office is closed. And don't
| even think about shopping around for multiple scripts
| because that'll just label you as a drug addict. The only
| winning move is to take half-doses on down days and build
| up a small stash of emergency medication.
| opportune wrote:
| 100% this. The worst part about ADHD treatment is all the
| disruptions of care to prevent people trying to abuse it.
| I personally don't give a rat's ass if people want to
| take adderall to go out and party or masturbate either.
| They'd probably have fun with less negative health
| effects or risk of fights/belligerence compared to
| alcohol...
|
| But for some reason the government (the FDA) and medical
| field in general cares about abuse a lot. In the past few
| weeks, Cerebral got labelled a pill mill by the FDA/execs
| and as a result almost all ADHD telemedicine patients are
| having a hard time getting prescriptions filled. Sending
| a prescription to multiple places sequentially (because
| they keep refusing to fill it) or calling a pharmacy in
| advance to ask if they'd fill the prescription runs the
| risk of being labelled a drug seeker, and any power-
| tripping retail pharmacist - who doesn't know anything
| about you at all - can just refuse to fill your
| prescription if they want. Asking your provider for a
| higher dose is also anxiety-inducing for similar reasons.
|
| The worst part is, people with ADHD still build a
| dependence/tolerance on amphetamines/methylphenidate. So
| running out of your medicine is really disruptive - not
| only do your symptoms go untreated, but they become worse
| than they'd be if you were unmedicated for a long
| interval, plus you have to deal with things like not
| feeling fully awake, being hungrier, lethargic, sleeping
| more while your body adjusts back to being unmedicated.
| But for some reason that's acceptable as long as we
| prevent people from taking amphetamines for fun.
| sascha_sl wrote:
| I found it really useful to cycle single doses between
| 5mg/10mg and ocasionally skip it entirely, when I know it
| wouldn't be essential. (Usually the skip sorts itself out
| when I forget I have them. You'd think lingering
| processing deficiencies would be obvious enough to remind
| me, but apparently not.)
|
| I've been avoiding higher doses because this setup works
| well enough that I don't want to disrupt the status quo
| and I keep hearing from friends that build a dependence
| and even one who went off them entirely after adverse
| reactions on very high doses.
|
| Fortunately I have a doctor who agreed this was a good
| idea and writes me prescriptions for different strengths.
| cwzwarich wrote:
| > My brother is a pharmacist, and is constantly shocked by
| the prescriptions that healthy people bring in to get
| filled.
|
| While I definitely agree with your general point, how does
| your brother know that they're healthy or don't need to
| take the medication? I've never had any discussion with a
| pharmacist (in the US or Canada) where I've revealed this
| information.
| ldjkfkdsjnv wrote:
| What I mean is a mother of 4, with no medical history, is
| feeling stressed and worn out. Maybe she has trouble
| focussing. All of a sudden she comes in with an
| amphetamine prescription. A year later, she's a full
| blown dependent on a serious drug. She was actually just
| burned out and probably just needed a break from her kids
| and a vacation. Very common. There's no transparency, no
| public understanding of doctors who are prescribing like
| this. It's only in a pharmacy do you get a birds eye
| view.
| sascha_sl wrote:
| You're making a lot of assumptions here, "maybe",
| "probably".
|
| "No medical history" doesn't mean shit either, it just
| means you have not yet seeked help. Most don't see mental
| health professionals at the first sign of issues, often
| they only do when things are starting to crumble. And
| that's my experience in a country with socialized
| healthcare, now translate that to the US where therapy is
| unaffordable to a large number of people.
| anonymoushn wrote:
| I sort of expect that the psychiatrist spends more time
| with the patient each month than the pharmacist.
| rhexs wrote:
| It's sort of a sad indictment of our system, but odds are
| the pharmacist sees the patient far more than the
| psychiatrist does.
| tptacek wrote:
| I have literally never had a discussion with a
| pharmacist. I drive up, hand them my script through the
| drawer thingy, and they hand me back my drugs. In fact,
| in the last couple years, I barely even do that anymore;
| our doctors just call in our scripts, and we get a text
| message when it's time to pick them up, and that's that.
|
| The idea that pharmacists have any meaningful diagnostic
| role in the US is risible.
| yata69420 wrote:
| I always hear about these community pharmacists that
| consult with patients about medical issues, but I'm yet
| to meet one myself.
|
| I suspect pharmacists are the _only_ people that some
| class of Americans can speak to about medical issues
| because they have an open storefront.
|
| I don't know what pharmacists know about drugs, but
| they're useful people to speak to about insurance issues.
| They know the rules around age cutoffs for optional
| vaccines, which generics are in stock, when something
| will be denied by insurance, etc.
| wickoff wrote:
| 15-ish years ago, when I was twenty, I was foolish enough
| to see a psychiatrist. I walked away with a prescription
| for an SSRI, a typical antipsychotic, a mood stabilizer
| and some Xanax to take as needed.
|
| What I really needed was my father not being dead when it
| mattered.
| ZanyProgrammer wrote:
| Your brother is not a clinician, definitely not those
| people's clinician.
| opportune wrote:
| If they're healthy, couldn't that be because of the
| medicine?
|
| A lot of people have conditions that medicine treats so
| well you wouldn't even know they had a condition at all.
|
| I know many people who have taken antipsychotics,
| amphetamines, and statins for decades and it was perfectly
| fine for them. I also personally know some judgmental
| pharmacists too. All I'll say is, there's a reason
| pharmacists and doctors are distinct professions.
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| > If they're healthy, couldn't that be because of the
| medicine?
|
| It's very likely. This actually has to be explained to a
| lot of people with chronic diseases like hypertension and
| type 2 diabetes. Way too many of them just stop taking
| their medication after their condition improves.
| cycomanic wrote:
| I believe blaming this on doctors only is way to easy. I
| believe many people demand medication when they go to the
| doctor. If they go because of a cold they don't accept
| being told to rest for a week, but demand antibiotics, if
| they feel depressed they don't want to be told to exercise,
| but want a quick medication etc.. I definitely see this
| since coming to Sweden, where it's difficult for doctors to
| prescribe antibiotics and lots of expats complain that they
| went to the doctor and were told to rest for a week. They
| feel they are not taken seriously if they don't get
| medication (that is not to say that there are no problems
| with how healthcare is done here, but restrictive
| prescriptions of antibiotics is not one of them).
| anonymoushn wrote:
| antipsychotics are horrifying. do therapeutic doses of
| stimulants cause problems other than heart disease over the
| long term?
| maleldil wrote:
| Antipsychotics are terrifying, but I'd rather deal with
| the physical side-effects than the disorder, and they're
| pretty effective at treating that.
| [deleted]
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| Depends on how you define "problem". Amphetamines may
| cause a lot of side effects: lower appetite, agitation,
| insomnia, irritability, bruxism... The list goes on.
| Whether these risks are acceptable or not is an
| individualized choice. Some side effects may even be
| beneficial: lower appetite for weight loss, insomnia for
| narcolepsy.
| aaaaaaaaaaab wrote:
| No, long-term stimulant use is totally A-ok! /s
| mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote:
| Actually, at therapeutic doses, it is.
| sascha_sl wrote:
| If your brother told you that with this exact framing, he's
| in the wrong industry.
|
| Health, and especially not mental health is very much not
| visible or even obvious. Just ask any disabled person that
| is not bound to a wheelchair 100 percent of the time.
| twstdzppr wrote:
| They are easily one of the most harmful classes of medications.
| Sure, they combat anxiety acutely, but wreck ones cognitive
| abilities in the process. This has been readily observable for a
| long time.
|
| Plus, the anxiolytic effect quickly turns into a dependency, as
| when the withdrawal starts kicking in you're inclined to start
| having anxiety attacks.
|
| Suppose you want to get off them. Now you have a significant
| problem. Can't quit cold turkey -- you're likely to have a
| seizure.
| shepardrtc wrote:
| I was prescribed benzos because of sleeping issues, but I was
| also taking phenibut at the same time. After about 3 weeks of
| using large doses of the benzos every night, I stopped taking
| them, but a year later I still feel pangs of withdrawal sometimes
| when I get stressed. It took me another 4 months to get off the
| phenibut and a month or so after that before my sleep returned to
| normal. There were months where I maybe got an hour or two of
| sleep a night. If I got stressed, I simply wouldn't sleep at all.
| I once went three days without sleep. The torment of that
| combined with the withdrawal from the drugs showed me what hell
| was like. I tell everyone to never take benzos for any reasons. I
| don't care how safe the doctors say they are; they aren't.
| Period. There are repercussions - as this study shows - and they
| will not help the underlying cause of your issues. Treat the
| cause, not the symptoms.
| jlmorton wrote:
| It's much the same with chronic alcohol usage, and a very
| similar pathway. Both alcohol and benzodiazepines bind to GABA
| receptors, and through several difference mechanisms
| (desensitization, downregulation through gene expression,
| degradation), these receptors become less sensitive.
|
| GABA receptors are critical to sleep. After prolonged usage of
| alcohol, or benzos, sleep often becomes impossible without an
| ever-larger dosage.
|
| These sleeping difficulties sometimes persist for quite a
| while, and sleep disturbances are one of the primary causes of
| relapse in alcoholics. People learn that alcohol helps them to
| fall asleep. Even if the quality of sleep is poor, it's
| substantially better than no sleep at all, as anyone who has
| gone through what you did surely knows.
| bsimpson wrote:
| Someone close to me has long been addicted to both alcohol
| and Ambien (sleeping pills).
|
| I'd never considered that alcohol could trigger the need for
| Ambien. I'd presumed it was a lifestyle thing for someone who
| was used to being out all night.
| yodsanklai wrote:
| > I tell everyone to never take benzos for any reasons
|
| You can't generalise your experience. Everybody is different
| and that's the doctor's job to assess whether the benefits
| outweigh the cost, considering the patient and their problems.
|
| Personally, I've been taking benzos very occasionally for 20
| years (never more than a few days at a time) and they helped me
| overcome difficult times. Never had the slightest addiction or
| side effects.
|
| > Treat the cause, not the symptoms.
|
| Easier said than done
| sva_ wrote:
| I have friend who was at nursing school, and she'd get them
| prescribed for the few occasions where she had to do a
| presentation, as she would get extremely nervous. She never
| took them after. Maybe she could've addressed the issue
| differently, but it worked for her, and she never got hooked.
| But milage varies, and so on. She also told me that at the
| hospital, benzos are readily available and they kinda hand
| then out like candy to manage patients (there doesn't seem to
| be any rigorous bookkeeping about them).
|
| I also tried a few many years ago, but they didn't really do
| anything for me. I think they only work if you got anxiety or
| something, so some underlying issue which -if chronic- is
| probably not a good fit. Never had any cravings since.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| I've reacted differently to different benzos. One did
| nothing. Another triggered one hell of a mood swing (I'm
| bipolar). Finally settled on Klonopin, which has a long
| half-life. It seems to be less.. harsh?
|
| Psychoactive medications are fun...
| pirate787 wrote:
| My family was addicted to benzos by a quack doctor who hands
| them out like candy. He has many seniors on it long term for
| "anxiety" and though seniors are at particular risk and are
| not supposed to use more than 6 months.
| r3trohack3r wrote:
| I got to see this side of American medicine while in high
| school. My great aunt unofficially overdosed on a cocktail
| of drugs prescribed by a group of loosely coordinating
| doctors.
|
| When she passed, her cocktail included 12 prescriptions.
| One of her doctors had prescribed her medication to lower
| her blood pressure while another had her on medication to
| raise it.
| ada1981 wrote:
| I think literally everything from learning to play tic tac
| toe to quantum computing is easier said than done...
|
| It's harder to clear trauma, teach emotional regulation and
| to build a life that is healthy, yes. And, it's a path worth
| walking down.
| mikepurvis wrote:
| This whole discussion is making me feel better than ever for
| choosing cannabis edibles (legal in Canada) to address
| stress-induced insomnia and other sleep issues for which the
| root cause was not something I was in a position to
| immediately address.
|
| I take it a few times a week as needed, small doses (2-5mg)
| and I feel that I am in control of it and could go off any
| time.
| opportune wrote:
| Did you tell your doctor you were taking phenibut when they
| prescribed you benzos? It seems like something you definitely
| shouldn't mix.
|
| I completely agree that benzos are bad news unless you truly
| need them. In my relatively uneducated opinion, I don't think
| they should be a first-line treatment and it's kind of a joke
| that they're considered schedule 4 (at least compared to things
| that are schedule 2 - I don't think really anything should be
| "scheduled"). Benzos and other gaba-ergics may not be as
| pleasurable as other drugs, but they're very addicting and have
| the most harmful withdrawal process of any class of drugs.
|
| Phenibut and the prevalence of RC benzos (which aren't subject
| to the federal analogue act since benzos are schedule 4) are
| another phenomenon. I think people underestimate the risks of
| this stuff due to how easy it is to get them - especially
| phenibut which is sold in a lot of more "legit" websites.
| 77pt77 wrote:
| Of the common legal drugs, benzos are by far the most dangerous
| to quit.
|
| And you get addicted in like a week.
|
| Be very careful.
| bsimpson wrote:
| There was a tea bar in my neighborhood that would put kratom
| in one of the teas.
|
| It didn't make me feel particularly euphoric, but I did find
| myself craving it the next day. Shit is fucking weird and
| scary.
| tinyhouse wrote:
| I took it for two months for sleep and had no issues quitting
| it besides a few nights of taking longer to fall asleep.
| entropie wrote:
| > Of the common legal drugs, benzos are by far the most
| dangerous to quit.
|
| Not sure if that's right. Alcohol withdraw can actually kill
| you.
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| By the time you've developed alcohol dependence you've most
| likely gained more than a few comorbidities. That doesn't
| happen in a week.
| ikiris wrote:
| They're the same withdrawal... Benzos are just far more
| potent, so the dependence can happen MUCH faster, in like
| days.
| hibern8 wrote:
| Benzo withdrawal can as well.
| entropie wrote:
| Oh, I didn't know.
| 77pt77 wrote:
| And again, you get to that state in as little as a week.
|
| Alcohol takes much longer.
| RGamma wrote:
| Doctors prescribe benzos for sleep issues and tell you they are
| safe? Do you live in the US?
| shepardrtc wrote:
| Yes. Some doctors do; some don't. My new doctor was horrified
| when I told her what I was prescribed. She's young, and she
| said the first thing they say in medical school nowadays is,
| "Benzos are bad." My first doctor was much older and clearly
| from a different era of medical school.
| jolux wrote:
| My doctor is young and gave me a limited prescription for
| ten doses of lorazepam while I was adjusting to duloxetine,
| which often exacerbates anxiety in the first couple weeks.
| I was experiencing regular panic attacks before starting so
| he wanted to be sure they didn't become disabling. Benzos
| are safe when the amount and duration are carefully
| controlled. The problem is chronic usage, which is more or
| less contraindicated these days.
| SemanticStrengh wrote:
| is that a question? Benzos are not safe despite what many
| doctor believe. I'm in EU.
| whimsicalism wrote:
| they're saying they wouldn't be so easily prescribed in the
| US
| SemanticStrengh wrote:
| is that a joke? I'd be very surprised if doctors were'nt
| abusing benzo prescriptions for GAD
| RGamma wrote:
| Weird this can happen in the EU to be honest.
|
| In Germany these things are really difficult to come by for
| these minor reasons (it's probably different for the
| critically ill but I wouldn't know).
|
| Briefly, doctors have to have special permissions to
| prescribe potentially addictive or mentally altering
| substances and it's only with a special, bureaucratic kind
| of prescription ("BtM-Rezept").
|
| That's why I always wonder how this can happen so casually.
| If I'd ask my GP for benzos for sleep problems I'd most
| certainly not get them even if he'd be allowed to prescribe
| them and reckless prescription in this case could lose him
| his license.
| jotm wrote:
| Wow, 1. who tf gave you phenibut before gabapentin/pregabalin?
| Phenibut is notoriously hard to quit. It takes at least a few
| weeks of gradual tapering down. 2. Together with a
| benzodiazepine? Wew, lad. Should've also taken a few shots of
| vodka before sleep for the insanity trifecta.
|
| Edit: sorry, I always assume _other_ people have access to
| medication. I don 't so I shouldn't have laughed.
|
| Yeah, so there are a few gabapentinoids/gabaergics out there,
| and they can help a lot.
|
| But please read everything you can before deciding on
| something.
|
| Just a couple of pages of Phenibut experiences have convinced
| me to not try it because there are better alternatives with
| fewer side effects.
| SemanticStrengh wrote:
| it's less frequent but people can get addicted to pregabalin
| too.
| Fargoan wrote:
| He probably gave himself phenibut. It's not a prescription
| drug. You can just buy it online.
| SemanticStrengh wrote:
| there can be legitimate uses for acute exceptional benzo use
| for e.g. panic attacks but yeah for anxiety or sleep they are a
| slippery slope that ruin lives. As I said in my other comment,
| there exist effective, saner solutions.
| cameronh90 wrote:
| I have a small pack of prescribed diazepam in my backpack in
| case I have a panic attack. Haven't used any of them so far,
| but just having them there makes me a lot less anxious.
| throwaway23324 wrote:
| azinman2 wrote:
| That's a classic strategy. I had a brief period of panic
| attacks that benzos really helped with that helped me
| gradually have less and less. I don't particular like the
| feeling of the benzo, luckily, so it wasn't appealing to
| take outside of acute need. My doctor did seem to want to
| monitor refills and asks me how often I take them (almost
| never now), so he was aware of the dependence issue. I do
| carry one around just in case, and very rarely, do in fact
| need it.
| shepardrtc wrote:
| My eventual treatment for my underlying anxiety was Lexapro.
| It's worked wonders. I can't say enough good things about it
| - as long as you stick with it. Old SSRI's are terrible, but
| newer ones work like they're supposed to. At least in my
| opinion.
| SemanticStrengh wrote:
| SSRIs do not work for everyone. It's good that they work
| great for you.
| phenthrowAway wrote:
| To anyone curious about phenibut:
|
| Don't. Just don't. Please.
|
| Just a few weeks of usage can cause dependence. It is notorious
| for causing compulsive redosing. Withdrawal can make you unable
| to sleep for days, with lingering effects like panic attacks
| and anhedonia for weeks and weeks. Withdrawal from larger
| quantities can cause auditory and visual hallucinations and
| seizures and can even KILL you. Avoiding serious symptoms
| requires an excruciating taper that can take months. The
| effects of long term abuse are poorly understood.
|
| "But it's totally legal, and with responsible dosing can be a
| potent nootropic. I'm not a drug addict, I'm a biohacker. I'm
| not after a high."
|
| Yeah, That was my thinking too, and in hindsight that was
| immensely stupid. Please just look at r/quittingphenibut before
| doing anything.
|
| Be kind to your GABA receptors.
| capitalsigma wrote:
| I take phenibut about 1x/week, I have been for about 2 years
| now. I think it's generally pretty OK for me, though I've
| started to worry that it impacts my memory a touch, at the
| edges.
|
| Do not take drugs every day. For real. I don't want to
| victim-blame but it is wild that you expected to be able to
| be able to take drugs daily for _weeks_ without withdrawals.
| As a rule of thumb, unless you intend to be on it forever
| (e.g. caffeine), you should never take anything more than
| maybe 2 days out of 7 in the week. Psychoactive drugs are not
| like aspirin, where you dabble a bit as necessary.
|
| Phenibut is serious stuff. Nobody would say "I had only been
| drinking a pint of vodka every day for a few weeks before I
| realized I might have to deal with withdrawals."
| c7DJTLrn wrote:
| Well that's frightening. I tried it out recently and didn't
| really feel anything that would get me hooked on it but maybe
| that's naive.
| mckirk wrote:
| My advice: Don't underestimate the substance, but also
| don't give too much importance to stories of people that
| overdid it and had a terrible time. People have been using
| Phenibut for long periods of time without getting dependent
| -- provided they space out the "Phenibut days" enough. Of
| course that requires some self-knowledge: If you are the
| kind of person who would have trouble keeping it to "not
| more than twice a week maximum (ideally not more than once
| a week) at reasonable dosages", then Phenibut can easily
| turn into a slippery slope to physical dependence, with
| horrible withdrawals.
|
| If you know yourself enough not to overdo it, it's not
| _that_ terrible a thing; though your individual response to
| it will of course vary, which is where the "self-knowledge"
| comes in again.
| heavyset_go wrote:
| I've heard of people going through withdrawals after just a
| single week of use. Nuts that it's sold as a supplement at
| all.
|
| Interestingly enough, a suspected GABA prodrug that
| supposedly passes the blood-brain barrier called picamilon
| has been banned by the FDA, yet phenibut is still on shelves.
| SemanticStrengh wrote:
| picamilon is banned? That's dumb, soon they will ban
| l-theanine and taurine? I really don't think you can get
| addicted to picamillon like phen or benz
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| Some supplements are basically unregulated medications.
|
| I found out the hard way that L-Theanine does not mix
| well with bipolar disorder. I suspect it inactivated the
| mood stabilizer I was on.
| heavyset_go wrote:
| The FDA's argument is that it isn't a naturally occurring
| substance like an amino acid:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picamilon#Regulation
| SemanticStrengh wrote:
| insane hypocrisy from the Federal Death Agency, a prodrug
| is functionally the exact same thing as the endogenously
| occuring substance
| shepardrtc wrote:
| Phenibut is horrific and should be banned. I thought I could
| control it, but I couldn't.
| s5300 wrote:
| Because you have no self control a substance should be
| banned.
|
| Cool world that would be to live in.
| sshine wrote:
| I tried it once years ago.
|
| Amazingly potent. I considered finding applications for it,
| but alas, I had no use for it.
|
| Seems like a WW2 drug like amphetamines: Sure works wonders
| if you're patching up people, going through horrors like a
| breeze. But it ain't a peace-time nootropic with minimal
| downside.
| throwaway23324 wrote:
| loeg wrote:
| > I tell everyone to never take benzos for any reasons. I don't
| care how safe the doctors say they are; they aren't. Period.
|
| Do you ever wondered if maybe something about your situation
| might be different from most other people prescribed benzos?
| For example, the concurrent phenibut use.
| tinyhouse wrote:
| Benzo got a terrible rep because of addicts. People who have
| addiction problems shouldn't be prescribed benzos. I can tell
| only my own experience working with a psychiatrist. I started on
| SSRI and the first month was horrible. They gave me benzo to help
| with anxiety and sleep. It really did the job, my sleep improved
| a lot. I used a low dose (1/2 of what I was prescribed) and had
| no symptoms besides being a bit more sleepy when walking up in
| the morning. I stopped taking it after two months of taking it
| daily, when things started to stabilize. I had no bad symptoms
| stopping it besides a hard time falling a sleep in the first few
| nights. About 4 days after I went back to normal and never had
| issues since.
|
| I also know that in many countries benzos are the more common
| sleep drugs, unlike the US where z-drugs are more common. I know
| at least one person in my family that is now 90 who has been
| taking benzos for sleep for about 40 years. He is doing well
| cognitively. This is of course very anecdotal.
| holly76 wrote:
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