[HN Gopher] Japanese audio brand Onkyo files for bankruptcy ___________________________________________________________________ Japanese audio brand Onkyo files for bankruptcy Author : ksec Score : 231 points Date : 2022-05-15 15:47 UTC (7 hours ago) (HTM) web link (asia.nikkei.com) (TXT) w3m dump (asia.nikkei.com) | awsrocks wrote: | I grew up on onkyo audio. bummer. | rixrax wrote: | I feel that the AV-receiver market has gone the way of the DSLR | market. Compact speaker systems like Sonos (that don't need a | separate AVR) simply got good enough. Thus the need for buying a | separate AVR to drive your Dolby / DTS / etc. setup has all but | vanished except maybe for the most determined audiophiles (and | even most of these would do well to simply get a compact wireless | speaker setup instead of some monstrosity that they can hardly | ever enjoy...because too small of a listening room, and | neighbours). | | I'm not saying market for Onkyo, Denon, Sony, Yamaha, etc. AVRs | is a goner, but I am suggesting it may have peaked and that going | forward there will be less and less demand for AVRs, especially | in the low/mid range of things. | Fwirt wrote: | It all comes down to demand I guess... Most people seem to like | Beats headphones or think their Airpods have top quality sound | and don't care that $200 headphones exist that blow them out of | the water. Most people use bluetooth with low quality codecs | that distort the sound. In addition, most people listen to | their music on streaming services that compress the heck out of | tracks that are already heavily (dynamic range) compressed. So | it's a case of (a) people never having been exposed to "hi-fi" | and (b) people ceasing to care/being willing to sacrifice audio | quality (which is heavily subjective anyway) for convenience. | So it is the same as phone cameras, people are willing to | sacrifice image quality and control for the convenience of | having a camera in their pocket all the time. | | I personally care about audio to a _reasonable_ degree, but I | also think that AVRs in their current form are a weird mix of | "too much" and "not enough". I wanted to have a 5.1.2 system | that wasn't a soundbar with tiny, tinny speakers that bounce | off the ceiling and a tiny sub that moves hardly any air. But | in order to drive decent speakers you need a decent amp. But in | order to get a decent amp you have to buy a unit that has a | million connectors, spatial audio processing, etc. Out of the | gigantic array of connectors on the back of my AVR, (7 HDMI | ports, phono plugs, component, composite) I am currently using | 3 HDMI ports because I play most media off an HTPC anyway. I | feel like I'm using less than 30% of what it has to offer, and | there is a growing divide between people who want convenience | and people who want uncompromising quality at any cost, so low | end AVRs aren't much better than a soundbar, and high end AVRs | aren't affordable for the average consumer. | JKCalhoun wrote: | I built modern thing a little like the old console stereo | units. Used high end full-range drivers for the | left/center/right and built in a sub. The thing looks like | furniture but has your 3.1 covered. I think there's a Yamaha | receiver in there but it isn't too crazy with regards to | connectors and such. | | I like to think the console stereo could come back for people | who want higher quality speakers/audio. | initplus wrote: | Streaming services don't compress dynamic range, rather the | opposite - because every streaming service employs loudness | normalization the loudness wars have largely ended. | Compressing your track to hell in an effort to get it to | sound louder doesn't work anymore because every streaming | service will just normalize it anyway. | | Spotify at least uses 320kbps vorbis for their "high quality" | setting which is at the point where I don't believe it's | humanly possible to distinguish from a lossless encoding. | PaulDavisThe1st wrote: | > Compressing your track to hell in an effort to get it to | sound louder doesn't work anymore because every streaming | service will just normalize it anyway. | | This is a bit of confused remark. "Normalization" means | applying some constant gain factor to the signal so that | the loudest level is 0dBFS. Compression applies a varying | gain factor to the signal to meet some parameters. | Normalizing audio will generally make it louder (unless the | loudest level is already at 0dBFS), but it does not change | the dynamic range of the signal. The "loudness wars" were | all about using compression, and this does change the | dynamic range of the signal (you end up with less | difference between the quietest and loudest parts of the | signal - hence the term compression). | | You can still "sound louder" by using compression, even if | the peak volume is still 0dBFS. | initplus wrote: | Modern volume normalization isn't done based on the | highest peak of the track. Instead they normalize based | on the average perceived loudness of the whole track (to | a level below 0 so there is headroom for peaks). It's | intentionally designed to avoid the exact issue you | describe. | | If this was not done users of streaming services would | have to be constantly adjusting the volume to deal with | perceived volume differences between tracks due to | different levels of dynamic range compression. | whyoh wrote: | >"Normalization" means applying some constant gain factor | to the signal so that the loudest level is 0dBFS. | | Not necessarily, although that has been perhaps the most | common use of that term so far. But you can normalize to | a lower peak level or to something else... | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_normalization | leokennis wrote: | I've been a headphone mid-fi buyer for at least 15 years now | (think Denon AH-D2000, B&W P5 etc.) and it's just also the | case that lower-fi audio has greatly improved. | | The sound quality AirPods or the Samsung buds deliver are | simply very very competent for the price. They're good | sounding, convenient, dependable. | | Contrast to the crap you used to get included with your iPod | or the entry level IEM's that were 99% bass and 100% ear pain | and snapped cables. | | It's not that people enjoy crap these days. It's just that | previously you needed to spend Onkyo levels of money to get | decent sound, and these days a lot less. | moralestapia wrote: | >Compact speaker systems like Sonos (that don't need a separate | AVR) simply got good enough. | | I don't like em. I am not the stereotypical smug audiophile but | the sound on most of these new systems, soundbars, headphones, | etc... is absolute trash. | | Any pair of moderately-decent bookshelf speakers blows them out | of the water and you can get them for ~300USD so they're | actually cheaper than "high-end" speakers from brands like | Bose, Sonos, etc... which sound terrible IMO. | Gordonjcp wrote: | Are there any of those compact speaker systems that actually | sound good, though? | dagw wrote: | Are there any $15 wines that taste good or $500 DSLRs that | can shoot good video footage or $50 dress shirts that look | good? For most people the answer is obviously yes, and for | some the answer is obviously no. And the one group will never | convince the other group that they are wrong. | msh wrote: | Most people think so. Audio nerds don't. | overcast wrote: | No. You can't change physics. What usually suffers is the | midrange(woofer) because everything is tiny. So you get high | frequencies, and then usually some paltry subwoofer. There is | no replacement for displacement. | jay_kyburz wrote: | This!. I've been searching for a set of speakers for my | lounge room with a nice big cone in them, but I just cant | find that is not priced for audiofiles. I have been looking | second hand, but everything I can find is over 40 years old | and the cones have all started disintegrating. | overcast wrote: | Yeh, unfortunately you're going to have to spend some | bucks for quality. I'm still using my fathers 50 year old | ESS Model 5's in my upstairs office and they sound | amazing. Original woofers too! I just refoamed them, | easy. I love the sound of the HEIL air motion | transformers. | | Downstairs is all Totem I bought 20 years ago. | aurora72 wrote: | Even the USB powered Logitech z120 which costs a few dollars | sounds good enough even for movies. | Gordonjcp wrote: | I guess you watch movies where all the dialogue takes place | over a telephone and there's no music? | gog wrote: | Sony HT-A9 (+ a sub) has been praised, but it is not cheap. | philjohn wrote: | Yes - the Sonos Arc + sub + 2 rear channels sounds amazing | after using the built in sound tuning, and got a pretty damn | good review in What HiFi. | Gordonjcp wrote: | That's one I've already listened to, and it's atrocious. It | sounds like 1990s car speakers. | bitL wrote: | The main reason why I got a Marantz AVR was to be able to | connect 10 different devices to the TV at 4k@60 via HDMI, as | well as various sound outputs, including the output of my music | studio mixer. | m463 wrote: | I think soundbars have taken over for home theater setups. | | annoyingly, you can't get a system without a wireless | subwoofer. | | I have a soundbar that creates a wifi access point for the | subwoofer and it's really annoying. I really just want a wire. | | So, I've been considering an a/v receiver and dedicated | speakers, which means I can't mount them on the tv | bjelkeman-again wrote: | I am using my old Stereo, which has 5.1 support for the DVD | and the TV. Way better than must friends soundbar. Maybe | there are decent systems, but I doubt you can get as good as | proper stereo stuff. | alasdair_ wrote: | Sonos still has severe limitations and I regret buying two 5.1 | setups from them. | | As a simple example: there is no 7.1 support at all and the | Atmos support is a sort of faked 5.1.2 support where the upward | firing speakers try to bounce some sounds off the ceiling. | | Sonos only supports 2.4GHz (no 5GHz support at all) so in a | congested area network degradation is a big issue. | | Codec support is limited as well. For example if your source | outputs in DTS, you may need to throw away the whole system and | buy a different sonos system just to get audio working. The | same thing applies to dolby atmos or vision - you need to buy | new speakers just to listen to those type of sources. | wctawcta wrote: | I don't this contradicts the "gone the way of the DSLR | market" claim. Sonos and similar systems are simply good | enough for most people. | | Whether it's TVs, cameras, surround sound systems, we reached | a point of diminishing returns by cramming in more pixels or | speakers. At that point, you're competing on factors like | convenience. There will still be markets for 7.1+ surround | sound or DSLR cameras, but they're smaller now. | givinguflac wrote: | I just want to point out that while sonosnet is 2.4 only, | most of their products support 5ghz APs. In addition, DTS | support has been included for a little while now. | leokennis wrote: | Wait Sonos is 2.4Ghz only? | | Even my cheapo digital photo frame and my "need to make it | cheap to turn a profit" ereader work on 5Ghz... | devrand wrote: | FWIW they do support DTS (but not DTS-HD) now. | christoph wrote: | Poor/late timing, as DTS is essentially dead at this | point[1] in the streaming market which I'm guessing is | generally what they are catering for. | | 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30942269 | kllrnohj wrote: | If AVRs are DSLRs, then Sonos is Leica, not the iPhone. Sonos | is the expensive option that found & cemented a niche audience | on an experience. | | Soundbars are what's killing AVRs for what's left of the 'home | theater' market. They're much easier to setup and deliver a | good enough experience. For everyone else, it's laptops & | tablets with maybe a pair of headphones. | vgeek wrote: | Pretty much this. Places like Parts-express have been creeping | more upmarket with their own brands like Dayton Audio to fill | some of the gap, but they are still more downmarket hobbyist | niche and probably won't ever be in mass market stores. The | same thing that happened to cameras being replaced by good | enough phones happened to stereos, just with soundbar/box type | appliances. | JKCalhoun wrote: | Yeah, used to buy a lot of stuff from Parts-Express (mainly | full-range drivers) and made some nice speakers, etc. | theandrewbailey wrote: | I'm using a 7-year old Onkyo 7.1 surround sound system right now. | It sounds great, but when you use the menus (like browse a DLNA | server) or switch inputs (or something cuts out), there's a | second or two lag on everything. | | I wish that AV receivers had USB inputs for PCs. | | "But Andrew," I hear you say: "Go to $store and search for | receivers with USB ports. There's hundreds!" | | Those USB ports are for playing MP3s off a flash drive. A PC | isn't a flash drive. Do you have a receiver like that? How do you | connect a PC to it with USB? | krueger71 wrote: | I had an Onkyo 5.1 system in service from 2002 - 2018. Great | stuff! First movie I watched on the system with a 28" CRT TV was | "Driven" on DVD. Going from TV-speakers to a full set of speakers | including subwoofer was amazing! Later on it serviced Blu-ray:s | and a PS4 beautifully. | yborg wrote: | First receiver I ever bought was an Onkyo ... in 1985. It still | works. | chmod600 wrote: | There's no doubt that, for a lot of people, there is just a | better convenience/quality trade-off. I had a good size Onkyo | system for watching movies and I configured it meticulously. But | it's hard to explain to others why there is so much ceremony and | bulk, especially when watching habits degenerate from immersive | movies to binge watching netflix serieses. | | Part of the experience with hobbies is some kind of sacrifice | along with the reward. The drive towards convenience takes away | that sacrifice and makes me appreciate something a little less. | | It's like takeout and boxed wine, wearing a T-shirt; versus | dressing up a bit, making a nice meal, and opening a bottle from | a winery you visited. The former is ovjectively good and | convenient, and all of the latter ceremony is a hassle that | provides little benefit (you probably can't tell the boxed wine | apart in a blind test). | | But... aren't we happier with the latter experience? | | I'm too lazy to "waste" time on that kind of happiness though. | That's the sad part. | | I think if I'm motivated by others it's different. For instance, | stuff like surfing/snowsports requires a significant hassle, and | it's a lot easier to find people who will put up with that | hassle. | colordrops wrote: | The problem is that there is no choice. There are no good | receivers that have modern UIs with sane defaults. They just | hacked on wifi and phone apps that do a horrible job papering | over the complexity. Sonos tried to fix this but their hardware | is woefully inadequate for theater quality setups. | christoph wrote: | Weirdly in the last couple of weeks we've been clearing out our | house and I found three(!) Onkyo home cinema amp boxes in the | attic. I don't own a single Onkyo amplifier anymore. Every | single one got returned due to a serious fault (from suddenly | producing no sound, to literal smoke coming out of it) within a | year or 18 months, and typically swapped for another, slightly | newer model Onkyo amp - rinse & repeat yearly. Their hardware | from my experience was utter garbage. It had great features and | UI, but literally went up in a puff of smoke on an annual | basis. After three or four cycles I got fed up and changed to | Yamaha. Unplugging a load of HDMI cables, speaker cables, re- | running audio calibration, etc. is not something you enjoy | repeating on an annual basis. I was always glad Richer Sounds | (in the UK) have an unbelievably good returns policy. Even | loaning me another amp FOC for a couple of months while Onkyo | tried to repair one of them for me, before they gave up and | just sent me a whole new higher end amp, free of charge. | | I've got two Yamaha amps, both at least 3+ years old which have | never had a single fault. I've also got a Denon home cinema | amp, just over two years old which has never had an issue. To | be honest I'm surprised they were still in business, as it | never seemed from home cinema forums that my story was that | unique. | darig wrote: | movetheworld wrote: | And here I am: still using my first receiver ever, an Onkyo. | It's still runs great after being in use for over twenty(!) | years. My Philips CD player won't open the tray and my Aiwa | Cassette deck won't play any cassette, but my Onkyo is still | kicking. Maybe the models from the recent years don't have | the quality as it used to be. | | By the way, I just checked the backplate and it's an Onkyo | TX-9031 RDS receiver from 1993 - time just flies ... | christoph wrote: | Isn't it lovely when you realise you have electronics that | have lasted nearly three decades and are _still_ useful? | | Onkyo were always well known for packing cutting edge | features into home cinema amps. They always had way more | features and codec support than anyone else. Nobody else | came close for "bang for buck", but they definitely had | serious reliability issues. | | Thinking about it tonight, just having some slow spinning | fans probably would have alleviated 90%+ of their issues. | But I guess the "audiophiles" would have complained about | that... | mancerayder wrote: | I had two very old receivers that lasted a number of years | each. When the last one wouldn't stay on, I tried to then buy | another Onkyo receiver. Somehow late last year but there was | some insane shortage everywhere, and Best Buy was literally | out of everything. Online also proved to be difficult. | | I therefore couldn't find another Onkyo to buy, and after | some research I learned that those receivers (of various | brands) with complicated A/V functions are the ones that have | issues. I ended up getting a higher-end, but non-AV (meaning | no HDMI) simple stereo receiver and have been happy so far. | cookingrobot wrote: | I bought an Onkyo 5.1 receiver at a garage sale yesterday for | $5. This house I moved into has prewired surround speakers | and I felt like I should take advantage. | | What a hassle though, I can't get audio flowing from the tv, | can't get it to drive all the speakers, it runs super hot. | | It really seems like a hardware hobby more than a way to | enjoy movies so far. | layer8 wrote: | I partly agree. Though once you _do_ have a working setup and | know which buttons to press, there isn't a lot of inconvenience | anymore, apart from being bound to the particular room. | | The problem for the industry is more that an important target | group for them are A/V nerds who are never satisfied for long | with their setup and are always looking for the next best thing | to upgrade to, and which also serve as a multiplicator. And | those are becoming fewer and fewer. | TacticalCoder wrote: | > Though once you do have a working setup and know which | buttons to press, there isn't a lot of inconvenience anymore, | apart from being bound the particular room. | | I was going to comment the same... I've got a quality stereo | amp (bought used), great floorstanding loudspeakers, a little | DAC. I set up everything once, making sure everything was | correctly positioned. There's _one_ input I use on the amp: | the DAC. I typically hook a MacBook Air to the DAC. | | There's zero inconvenience. There's a volume button and | that's it. | | No updates. No wifi. No "smart" anything. Only a totally dumb | setup that simply works. | rob74 wrote: | That's the problem though - the people who treat "listening | to music" as an activity of its own are getting fewer and | fewer. I listen to _a lot_ of music, but I mostly do it while | commuting, while programming etc., not in the living room. I | even have a good old stereo that 's served me well for over | 20 years now (Sony, not Onkyo), but it mostly only serves as | better PC speakers nowadays. I still play a CD on it | occasionally though... | leokennis wrote: | I think "listening to music as an activity" and "buying, | tweaking and upgrading expensive audio setups" are two | separate activities that often overlap but do not require | each other. As an example, I fiercely enjoy sitting on my | couch with my eyes closed listening to full albums of the | White Stripes or Stars of the Lid or Boards of Canada or | Sufjan Stevens on my AirPods Max, streamed via Bluetooth | from my iPhone. Every audiophile would laugh in my face | because of the poor hifi choices I'm making. | | But I'm damn sure I'm really attentively listening to the | music. | christoph wrote: | It's exactly this. "Audiophiles" are a weird bunch. Much | of what they claim to hear is scientifically proven as | total nonsense. Audio Science Review is a great place | where they scientifically analyse audio equipment. The | quality of speaker wire for all meaningful measurements | is utterly irrelevant for instance. | | Realistically, as long as you are enjoying the art, how | you are enjoying it should be irrelevant. | | I often make the point to people that a terrible movie | will be terrible no matter how you watch it - HDR, 4K, | Atmos won't make a difference. A crappy movie, will | always be a crappy movie. | | The same with music, and inversely - a great song will | still sound great and enjoyable on a really crappy car | stereo. | itsoktocry wrote: | On one had, totally agree. The audiophile world is full | of so much nonsense. | | On the other, a decent home theatre amplifier and set of | speakers is going to blow away a sound bar. I think | people who think "it all sounds the same" have never | heard a really good stereo. I have an alright, but far | from high end, stereo set up in a listening environment | in my basement, and everyone I've ever listened to music | with down there is blown away. | christoph wrote: | Absolutely. 100%. Last night we turned the "stereo" up | really loud after Eurovision to listen to Mikas album for | the first time in years - Full height Revel fronts, | monitor audio rear effect speakers, dual subs, blasted | it. I spent hours tuning curves on the Denon amp with an | external microphone last year... Anyone that thinks a | sound bar would sound anything like what we hear is | honestly deluded. But, I also wouldn't spend much more | money on it... it's way more than good enough for us... | audiophiles would tell me I could spend another PS10k on | equipment chasing another 1%, I'm not sure at this point | it would deliver anymore intrinsic value. At a different | token, two Sonos in Stereo in my kitchen are more than | good enough while I'm cooking to listen to music and | podcasts. | | I'd never, ever, want to see high end audio equipment | die. When it all works together, the experience is truly | sublime, engrossing and immersive like nothing else. | chmod600 wrote: | "Though once you do have a working setup ..." | | Yeah, I kept telling myself that, and it was true most of the | time. But any time you need to add something (video game | system brought by a friend, whatever), or some new tech comes | along, it throws everything off. And sometimes you have to | move, and it doesn't really work out as well in the new | place. | | "And [AV nerds] are becoming fewer and fewer." | | Isn't that related to my point though? When convenient | products get good enough to take the magic out of a hobby, | where do the new recruits come from? | | A big driver for a hobby is being able to say (to yourself at | least) that what you're doing is somehow better than what a | layperson with a big wallet can do. That you're "the guy/gal" | when it comes to this topic, perhaps surpassed by others | who've also invested time. | | Thinking out loud... This is probably some kind of deep | rooted social need for specialization/role in a tribe that | gives a sense of importance. We have jobs, which are highly | specialized, but nobody in our social circle really cares | unless they have a very similar job. | thaway2839 wrote: | I think this is increasingly true of us as a society. We have | been consistently elevating "ease of use" over every other | objective and/or subjective quality. | | We've reached the point where easier is better, even if it is | objectively worse. | | We are all settling for local maximum that are significantly | lower than several other maxima because apparently making the | effort to move further along the x-axis is now almost | considered the worst thing one can do. | tomatowurst wrote: | expect more. Japan Inc. has been running on fumes for decades. | The US only started 2 years ago, and will likely last another | 20~40 years of stagnation. | 01100011 wrote: | Japan has a demographic crisis for sure. A weak Yen may | actually help them stay competitive in the manufacturing space | though. | tomatowurst wrote: | with inflation??? | benreesman wrote: | Not saying your wrong, but why 2 years ago specifically? | midislack wrote: | When we started our quest to double, triple, even quadruple | the money supply. | codefreeordie wrote: | The US has been talking about the "Japan [central bank] | Model" as a model of success for much longer than two | years. | | This meme first got really big in central-banking circles | after the 2008 crash. Japan has been following this model | for 35-40 years of managed-decline. The US has been toying | with the same model for more like 10-15 years than 2-3 | suggested above. | | The US so far has managed its decline better, but not for | nothing has "abundance agenda" become a meme lately even on | the left -- as more and more people sense that managing the | decline is the goal of current policy and they don't | actually want to decline. | ananonymoususer wrote: | Managing decline is not a plan for survival. No matter | what you think of Trump, this was one of his primary | policy issues, and is the basis for the "Make America | Great Again" slogan. | CamperBob2 wrote: | _Managing decline is not a plan for survival._ | | And revanchism is? What Trump was trying to make happen | "again" wasn't all that great the first time, except for | those at the very top. | adra wrote: | The creedo has a more specific and probably incorrect | message: " we are broken, we need to be fixed. (Implied) | I'll fix things". It's easy to attract conservative | minded people as a rally cry to your cause when you reach | for a nostalgic rhetoric about "the good ol' days" | fallacy. Much divergent from the often left leaning "we | can build a better future" which should probably also be | considered a fallacy. | | Back on topic, I don't think the electioneering slogan | had any actual policy significance. | benreesman wrote: | I'm not very knowledgeable about this, but I have friends | and family in the UK and traveled there monthly for | years, so not zero context: and for a country that went | from the largest empire ever to a minor great power at | best in like 50 years, it seems like a pretty attractive | place to live all things considered. It's got problems | but not like 10x worse than any other developed nation. | | Do you happen to know how they managed that decline | without worse consequences? | adra wrote: | The US has a healthy immigration system that brings in a | consistent stream of workers and tax payers to support | all the old people about to clog social assistance | channels for decades. That's the strong trap that Japan | has been stuck in for decades, and the one that'll start | befalling China in a decade or so. It'll be interesting | to see if Japan can escape the population deflation or if | this is a constant shrinking population from here on out | until it's untenable to continue as-is. | Mountain_Skies wrote: | Ponzi schemes are good at kicking the can down the road | but when they eventually collapse, they're orders of | magnitude worse than they would have been if the core | problem the scheme was implemented to address was just | addressed when it first became a problem. | 14u2c wrote: | The fact remains that the US is in a far better position | to deal with aging demographics than the majority of | Western countries. Immagration policy needs to be | adjusted as soon as possible as to not squander this. | countvonbalzac wrote: | How hard would it be for them to just take their existing stereo | and hook it up to alexa or sonos or some other existing streaming | service. If the audio quality is good then quality + decent | interface seems straightforward? | kitsunesoba wrote: | My circa-2015 Marantz receiver (NR1606) shipped with support | for Airplay, Spotify, Pandora, and SiriusXM, so they've had | decent connectivity with modern services for some time now. The | UI isn't amazing but that's barely relevant since those | services are typically streamed or controlled by a phone app. | codetrotter wrote: | There were Onkyo receivers with support for Spotify Connect for | example. | criddell wrote: | I have one. It's a mini system (CS-N575) and it has both | Spotify and Chromecast support but no AirPlay support. | | I bought it because I wanted a small system for my office | that I could stream to or play CDs. It works, but I wouldn't | really recommend it. It doesn't sound great. I thought about | buying better speakers but then then I looked up the amp | specs and saw 10% THD. I think it's just a mediocre system. | bamboozled wrote: | It's pretty hard for a lot of traditional Japanese companies to | adapt it seems. | | Try using a Japanese bank when traveling, wow... | boulos wrote: | Many modern receivers support both Chromecast and Airplay, as | well as some level of HomeKit / Google Home / Alexa | integration. | | I think for Onkyo, they just fell in an awkward middle. Not as | high end as Denon/Marantz/etc. and not as cheap as < cheapest | thing you can find >. Combined with the drastic decrease in | people "needing" receivers and speakers (many people now just | get a sound bar, or Bluetooth speakers) and the market squeezed | them. | garyfirestorm wrote: | Unfortunately AirPlay doesn't support Atmos music. Despite | spending thousand dollar plus on a Denon and Klipsch setup, I | quickly found out that my Apple Music Atmos songs play only | as stereo using AirPlay. It's probably Apple's fault...but it | reduced the value of my receiver for me. Buy a 7.1 channel | setup and effectively listen to only 2 channels :/ | boulos wrote: | Yeah, AirPlay is such a disappointment. I'm thinking about | investing more heavily into Chromecast related things since | they're more amenable to custom code. Unfortunately, | there's no way I'll sign up for any Google-based music | service (and I work for Alphabet!). | | Edit to add: Dolby <anything> is also a bit of a fiasco. LG | TVs went through multiple firmware updates to attempt to | correctly negotiate Dolby Vision. I appreciate that they | want to push audio / video quality, but it seems weird that | the industry testing process for integration is so poor. | notatoad wrote: | Spotify on Chromecast works great! | seabrookmx wrote: | Spotify works great with Chromecasts. I'm still really | bummed they killed the Chromecast audio.. there's | workarounds but it was the perfect device IMO. | | If you're a tinkerer there's also DIY solutions like | running snapcast on a Pi. | danachow wrote: | It's entirely limitations of Apple Airplay that are known | and not new. Whether it's Apples fault - I mean Airplay | does what it says it does. Anybody that cares about would | simply not use Airplay. If you want to use Apple Music then | the best bet is an Apple TV which can stream it over HDMI | to the receiver. | | But it's not like there aren't alternative music providers | - Spotify, qobuz, tidal, your own pick your poison DLNA all | +/- Roon. | | I'm not an Apple fanboi but having to purchase an Apple TV | when it's pretty clear they're a lifestyle brand just | doesn't make me feel too bad for anyone. | garyfirestorm wrote: | exactly! despite spending money on a receiver, TV (smart | OLED), nVidia Shield and a bunch of speakers - i now have | to buy yet another device (AppleTV) to be able to | maximize my experience. | ethbr0 wrote: | > _Buy a 7.1 channel setup and effectively listen to only 2 | channels : /_ | | Apple determined that multiple channels were confusing for | customers. One should be enough. /mouse/s | mpol wrote: | That awkward middle also included the reputation that they | would easily break down after a few years, which made many | people choose for a different brand. | doyouevensunbro wrote: | Shame, middle was right where I liked to be audio equipment | wise. Ive had my Onkyo receiver for a long time, guess when I | do finally replace it I'll go high end. | codefreeordie wrote: | The middle of the market is actually all messy generally | these days. The very high end wants systems that feel like | current systems, but if you want something in the middle, you | don't actually really want the awkwardness associated with | having an audio system today. | | A system of passive speakers, an amplifier or two, and the | complexities of the user interface (I can't hear the TV, | which of these three remotes do I need to push the "source" | button on?) isn't actually a good experience -- and in the | middle of the market, there's no particular reason it needs | to stay this way. | | At the highest end, people want analog sound processing. At | the bottom end, we have cheap powered smart speakers using | Bluetooth for connectivity. In the middle, we could easily | have good quality powered speakers and some reasonable | mixture of wireless and wired interconnect that didn't | require all the legacy nonsense of a separate amplifier/audio | receiver. | pbronez wrote: | There are products there... plenty of good powered monitors | available. Some of them have integrated DAC with an | optical, line and USB inputs. Those are pretty easy to | connect to a TV or whatever. | | I'm actually hacking on a project to make it easier to sift | through all this stuff. The work that Audio Science Review | and a (very) few others are pumping out some great | objective data on audio equipment performance. My goal is | to pull that together in a data-first way that will allow | for robust cost/quality/criteria queries. | convolvatron wrote: | yeah. i mean i understand the value of being able to | replace components, but for the not-super-concerning the | integrated amp silicon is just fine. digital in means a | lot less opportunity for noise injection, and the | manufacturer gets to tune it all as a unit. | | i got some prosumer roland monitors a few years ago and | they've had excellent clarity, flat frequency response, | plenty of power at 60w on each of the drivers. | | why aren't there more products here between the crappy | little usb speakers and the $5k/channel real gear? | [deleted] | codefreeordie wrote: | These do exist, but they're not really marketed to the | mainstream home theater market. | hakfoo wrote: | I always felt like it was a battle for control of the user | interface. | | When the system was audio-dominant, the receiver made sense | to put in control. The TV audio was one source among many, | and most of the functionality was in front-panel buttons. | | When it became video-centric instead, we started putting | the TV in the centre of the experience-- plugging devices | directly into it and using its menus to control switching. | The problem there is that anything cool the AVR could do by | being aware of different inputs is lost (I'm picturing per- | input volume controls, for example). There's not really a | great way to get them to communicate-- CEC is limited, I've | seen AVRs that do on-screen display and wish I hadn't seen | it, and the only way I can imagine it working would be a | single brand-based propriatery interface where all the | parts could cooperate. | | The one I find weird is the soundbar angle. It's not going | to be anywhere near as good as all but the worst free- | standing speakers, due to size and positioning limits, but | it's still introducing cost and complexity. Bluetooth | speakers, at least you could put them in a good place for | the room. I assume they trade mostly on what they used to | call "Wife Acceptance Factor" | vladvasiliu wrote: | > I can't hear the TV, which of these three remotes do I | need to push the "source" button on? | | I have a fairly dumb amplifier (it does BT, and the DAC can | be fed through optical and coax, too). It can also be | controlled over RS-232 and Ethernet. It doesn't have any | kind of HDMI or other "home theater" related functions. | | But the remote of my Fire TV can be configured to control | the input and the volume of this amp. So if all I want is | to watch a movie or something, I only need to reach for the | amp's remote to turn it off when I'm done. If I'm too lazy, | it can go to standby on its own if it doesn't get any input | for a while. | | I do agree, though, that a "normal person" would probably | not want it. It's quite big and not particularly pretty. | Plus it's useless on its own, you need some kind of source | to feed it. A soundbar or some active speakers would be | best for them, and it's what they usually choose. | wallacoloo wrote: | modern day i expect to not have to turn off/on my | receiver: it should wake on input and go into a standby | state after so much inactivity. | | hence my problem: i've got the Technics receiver + stereo | speakers i inherited, but if you leave the receiver on | for more than a couple days without explicitly venting | it'll cut out (even if it's inactive: its idle power draw | is incredible). that's fine for me, but if i'm the only | one who cares about audio, it's a hassle for everyone | else in the house to manually flip the rocker switch on | as they use the tv and off when they're done. | | now i think about it, there's probably some "smart | outlet" i could get to make this transparent. | Bud wrote: | "Decent interface" is actually very, very hard. That's why a | lot people are willing to pay $179 for Apple TV 4K. | pcurve wrote: | Most a/v units have long offered good connectivity and even | mult-room setups using one. So, interoperability and | connectivity are easy. Aside from reasons mentioned in the | article, you now have 1-2 generations of people who grew up | without having much exposure to a/v receivers and large speaker | setups, whether at home or big box store electronic stores. | | Even the ones who have, the marginal benefit of having pricier | and higher end units cannot detected easily. | | Market for receivers will always be around, but it is shrinking | for sure. | ghaff wrote: | Detecting differences between decent gear blind has never | been terribly relevant to the audiophile market :-) | | That aside though, a stereo setup is something that a lot of | people just had. I have a decent one and it's wired to | multiple rooms. If I were starting from scratch I almost | certainly wouldn't do that today--to say nothing of all the | components to play four or five different types of media. | gunapologist99 wrote: | Easy, with built-in Bluetooth. I run my phone with Spotify into | my Costco-special Onkyo with Bluetooth. Works great, and I can | even play audio with Bluetooth while viewing video through | another HDMI port. | layer8 wrote: | One reason I stopped buying Onkyo AVRs is that they don't have a | good room correction system like e.g. Audyssey or Dirac. | | Edit: Apparently Onkyo caught up at some point, but at the time I | switched away from them they were lagging behind regarding room | correction. | CuriousSkeptic wrote: | Onkyo has had Audyssey for quite som time and current models | have Dirac. | layer8 wrote: | > current models have Dirac | | Ah, I missed that, haven't kept up to date in recent years. | 7speter wrote: | > ... Audyssey or Dirac | | Gotta remember these names for when I can afford a good audio | system... | layer8 wrote: | There's also Trinnov, but it's outrageously expensive. | otterley wrote: | Oh wow! I had an Onkyo AVR that did have Audyssey (TX-SR508), | but I guess they stopped putting it into later models awhile | ago. They replaced it with something called AccuEQ which some | reviewers say works just fine. | | I personally switched over to Denon AVRs when it became time to | upgrade. | layer8 wrote: | I believe Onkyo never had Audyssey XT32 (which is the | Audyssey version you really want), only an older Audyssey | version (2Eq). Onky never even had MultiEq? (not sure) | CuriousSkeptic wrote: | TX-NR3009 have XT32, there should be older models as well | layer8 wrote: | I wonder what Kawai will do, they collaborated with Onkyo for the | speaker/circuit tech on some of their keyboards and digital | pianos. | user_7832 wrote: | I must say this is a rather sober ending to the week, and for the | company. For a company that lived for over half a century - that | is a lot of people who've lived their entire lives working at | that place. Households that were purely supported because of | people buying their audio gear. | | I'm not a fan of Onkyo specifically - having never used them, or | even had the money to buy proper audiophile gear - but it is a | bit sad to see once-great industries and companies slowly start | fading and dying off, as gradually fewer and fewer people | remember them. | kringo wrote: | What's astounding is, how they didn't adapt to new demands or | pivot? | | Got comfortable or outdate? | rbanffy wrote: | Some markets simply disappear. Ice was once a subscription | business, but refrigerators ended it. | | Average sound equipment is good enough for most people. I | enjoyed the chest thumping that my parents high end setup could | deliver, but not everyone wants that and even though I would | like to have that kind of ability available, my priorities | place it down the list for the foreseeable future. | boulos wrote: | It's too bad Denon (DENki ONkyo) didn't buy this Onkyo to make | the merger complete :). I'm guessing it wasn't worth it to go | downmarket via Onkyo, and it sounds like Onkyo had been | accumulating debt for years. | lynguist wrote: | https://jisho.org/search/onkyo | | Onkyo means sound. Also: Often when there's To (actually To) in | a company's name, it refers to Tokyo's To such as in Toshiba. | Hamuko wrote: | > _it refers to Tokyo's To such as in Toshiba._ | | You mean it refers to "east"? | lynguist wrote: | No, it's an abbreviation of Tokyo. | | Even if To means East - in a compound To often stands for | Tokyo. | | Same concept in these words: | | Lai Ri - Nichi means day, here it stands for Japan. | | Here's an article about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J | apanese_abbreviated_and_contr... | | More examples: Todai (To for Tokyo), Nissan (Ni for Nippon) | gkanai wrote: | Ri Ben = Japan | 4ggr0 wrote: | Does this apply to Toyota as well? | selectodude wrote: | Nah, that's named after a guy called Toyoda. | agumonkey wrote: | I had no idea Denon was related to Onkyo :) | chrischen wrote: | Not related. Just two companies with similar names. Denon was | from Tokyo and Onkyo was from Osaka. | | I was however surprised to learn that Denon was actually | founded by an American in Japan in 1910. | [deleted] | danachow wrote: | They aren't - denon and marantz merged. Poster was just | suggesting D&M could have acquired them. But given the | overall stagnation in the receiver market I agree it think | wouldn't have benefited anyone. | | The market segment for Onkyo just doesn't exist anymore - | those that want receivers and a HiFi/HT setup are already | well served Denon/Marantz and Yamaha (and the "audiophile" | world beyond that is a pretty well saturated market). Sony is | still around but that's clearly not their core business. | | But the former Onkyo base has been eroded by soundbars and | wireless multi speaker setups. | bryanlarsen wrote: | Denki Onkyo and Onkyo were two different companies. "On" is | an obsolete / traditional pronunciation of "sound" so it's | not surprising to find it in many audio company names. | indigodaddy wrote: | Wikipedia states the companies are not related (even though | Onkyo is in both names). | agumonkey wrote: | ahh, fun fail | starky wrote: | Denon is already the downmarket brand for D&M though (Marantz | being the high end), there wasn't much difference in cost | between Denon and Onkyo. | lowbloodsugar wrote: | Both are downmarket now. They are shells of their former | selves. | Cerium wrote: | Sad to hear. Growing up I had an Onkyo amplifier that I liked a | lot. I picked it up at a garage sale for a few dollars and used | it through my teenage years. | JKCalhoun wrote: | I still have an Onkyo ... Mini-Disc system from Japan. | ChrisMarshallNY wrote: | It is sad. Many classic brands have gone by the wayside. Not | all have been satisfactorily replaced. | | Onkyo had some very good quality, for a fairly reasonable | price. | codefreeordie wrote: | Very true -- though the expectations we have for audio | equipment has changed in ways that make what Onkyo was really | good at less important. | dylan604 wrote: | The switch to little bitty teeny tiny speakers just makes | me sad. I miss my towers with multiple drivers and | crossovers accordingly. | retcon wrote: | [Edit] (large format) ,[/] Surround American made | monitors designed by the Pet Sounds engineer Alan Sides. | | https://oceanwayaudio.com/as-the-sea-level-rises-for- | immersi... | | British (also available in consumer version and pretty | finishing): ATC SCM150 | | https://atc.audio/hi-fi/loudspeakers/classic- | series/scm150/ | | American: JBL M2 https://jblpro.com/products/m2 | | (Or just buy JBL commercial theater smaller models like | many installers do) | | German: Neumann KH420 https://en-de.neumann.com/kh-420 | | Yamaha NS-5000 https://europe.yamaha.com/en/products/audi | o_visual/speaker_s... | | All these cost about thirty thousand dollars including | appropriate amplification and tax before installation. I | make this a loss leader run by all the industry for labor | and materials only. Every one is a halo product and | worthy of that description. | JKCalhoun wrote: | When I discovered full-range I disavowed multiple | drivers, crossovers. | | Try it sometime. It's like headphones without the | headphones. Crossovers + multiple drivers kill phase | information and you throw the "sound stage" out the | window. | MrBuddyCasino wrote: | You can have 2-way coaxes. I do like the sound, but they | tend to bundle so the sweet spot is small. | JKCalhoun wrote: | I understand the cross-over also destroys phase -- so I | think you're still losing the headphone-like quality that | full range give you. | dylan604 wrote: | You keep stating this phase destruction like it is | gospel. However, if a crossover is negatively affecting | the phasing, something is wrong. Maybe it's a cheap | design on a cheap product, or a poorly made something | with a good design, but if you have a crossover doing | this, then replace the crossover. | | Many many sound systems do not have this issue that you | seem to be convinced is normal operation of a crossover. | If this was a normal thing and accepted by everyone | everywhere, then loud music would never sound right. I'd | suggest stop buying equipment from Radio Shack ;-) | guardiangod wrote: | They screwed up their receivers circuit board from 2009 to 2015 | ish. All their receivers would fail after 5 years and Onkyo did a | massive recall campaign to replace the main circuit board (with | all the amps attached.) That must have costed them. | Hamuko wrote: | I have one of those receivers, but unfortunately it failed | after the recall period ended. | erichocean wrote: | Same. Bought a Pioneer Elite to replace it. | iforgotpassword wrote: | Uh, I have a TX-8020 from around that time. Nothing fancy, and | I don't use it too much as it's not in my main setup. So far it | has developed only one quirk: the power button doesn't work | properly, you have to press it several times or in a certain | spot for it to react, and sometimes, when you want to turn it | off it instead says "tone mode: direct" in the display, as if I | had pressed another button. Still not sure if this is a | mechanical or circuit board problem. | ryandrake wrote: | A pretty common failure was the capacitors on their HDMI | boards, which is a pretty easy DIY fix if you have some | soldering skills. | MushyRoom wrote: | Yes! TX-NR609 (11yrs old) here. Send in for repair (recall - | free out of warranty) and no problems ever since. | rrdharan wrote: | I always thought that was part of the capacitor plague but I | guess not since the timing doesn't quite line up with what | you're saying: | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague | | I had an Onkyo from the bad cap era that blew its capacitors, | it was maybe 15 years old when it died, FWIW.. | formerly_proven wrote: | The Wikipedia article is wrong - it only talks about "the | capacitor plague" of water-based elcos from 1999 onwards. | | There have been _multiple_ capacitor plagues. E.g. in the | late 80s /early 90s SMD electrolytics entered the market and | these had absolutely atrocious reliability because their lead | seals kept failing, so they'd empty their electrolyte into | the PCB. Before that the Japanese brands had a plague. | Philips "blue axials" had a plague in the 70s/80s. I don't | remember the brand right now (small, red-cased caps), which | also had a plague in the 80s. Rifa MP _safety caps_ have had | moisture ingress issues and associated explosion and fire | issues since forever. | tobyhinloopen wrote: | Mine failed too I wouldn't buy one again. But apparently I | won't be able to anyway. | Linda703 wrote: | supernovae wrote: | I switched to sonos and never looked back. I had a lot of Onkyo | over the years and it always felt like they should have gone the | software route much sooner. | | ultimately i think smart tvs and roku were a bigger part of the | receiver demise - it just didn't fit the receiver mindset and the | experience sucked | | sonos wasn't cheap but i'm on year 7 and it still works and i | only saw one product refresh on soundbar but my old one still | works - just sticking to spdiff. with 7 years of onkyo i would | have been on 2nd or 3rd receiver just trying to stay ahead of dvd | to bd and hdmi 1.x to 2.x and evrything between. | akmarinov wrote: | This isn't big news, the actual "Onkyo" that consumers know will | carry on, the Bankruptcy is the remains of the company that had | already sold off the hardware divisions. | | "The company sold its core home audiovisual business to Sharp and | U.S.-based Voxx International and its earphones and headphones | business to an investment fund, both in September. A joint | venture between Sharp and Voxx is expected to continue using the | Onkyo brand" | boulos wrote: | Right, the big news was that it was already sold off months | ago. But just because Sharp / Voxx is going to reuse the brand | name (and likely some base IP) that doesn't mean people won't | notice. (It's not likely anyone has noticed yet, since it takes | until the next production or two to actually make cost / design | changes). | spookthesunset wrote: | I was window shopping for an atmos receiver and noticed the | manuals and even product design between a certain Onkyo and | Pioneer receiver were basically identical. | | The design of the manuals, including the fonts and screenshots | were almost identical. The back and front of the units were | almost identical. I bet even the guts were identical! | | Here is the pioneer unit: https://intl.pioneer- | audiovisual.com/manuals/docs/SN29403616... | | Here is the Onkyo unit: https://www.onkyousa.com/wp- | content/uploads/2019/08/TX-SR494... | tzs wrote: | Pioneer sold their home A/V business to Onkyo in 2015. | spookthesunset wrote: | That would explain it! | codefreeordie wrote: | The brand may live on as a mark, but the brand is already | gone as a product. | | But actually I think that had already happened, and that we | are just observing now the formal recognition of that fact. | layer8 wrote: | > the actual "Onkyo" that consumers know will carry on | | I'm not so sure. The mainstream market (by that I mean | excluding expensive "high-end" brands like NAD) can't support a | lot of independently designed products. In the AVR mainstream | market there's currently Denon/Marantz, Onkyo/Pioneer, Sony, | and Yamaha (did I miss any?). There's bound to occur more | consolidation if the market keeps shrinking. The brands may | continue to exist, but sharing the internals with other brands. | rodgerd wrote: | Depends what you consider mainstream - the licensing gouged | for everything from HDMI to Atmos, DTS:X, and so on means | that there aren't as many price differences as there used to | be, so anything above (e.g.) bare-bones Denon will be in the | same price bracket as NAD and Anthem (for example). | | Then you get into the exotica such as Trinnov, Storm, etc. | m463 wrote: | I like schiit, but they brought my attention to an | interesting problem: the RCA plug is a really open standard | with a low barrier to entry. | | But multi-channel sound is sewn up - to enter that market you | have to ask permission from companies like dolby. Same with | video. | [deleted] | FunnyBadger wrote: | Bankruptcy in Japan doesn't work the way it does in the West - | it's pretty much a death sentence commercially in Japan. The | brand will never be used again and the assets will be | liquidated. The loss of face and reputation makes it very | different. | hakre wrote: | > Bankruptcy in Japan doesn't work the way it does in the | West | | Doesn't work in which part of the way it does work in the | West? | | Is the brand part of the assets and impossible to be sold - | as a brand - locally or globally as part of the liquidation | with this Onkyo bankruptcy in Japan? | wyldfire wrote: | But doesn't the brand itself have value outside of Japan? | When liquidating the company, why not license it to another | manufacturer? | 7speter wrote: | Whats the good of licensing a brand if the company was | known for high quality products? Its kind of like how | toshiba made laptops 25 years ago that still work today but | now they just license their name out to be stamped on cheap | crappy laptops that barely make it through their warranty | period. | elzbardico wrote: | This worked for years for whatever entities bought the | brand Samsui, same for modern-day Marantz brand. | wyldfire wrote: | Did you just answer your own question? It is precisely | for that purpose - to give the impression that this | lesser-known manufacturer produces goods with the | original quality level of the licensed brand. | | Eventually, consumers catch on: | | > but now they just license their name out to be stamped | on cheap crappy laptops ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-05-15 23:00 UTC)