[HN Gopher] I want an iPhone Mini-sized Android phone ___________________________________________________________________ I want an iPhone Mini-sized Android phone Author : erohead Score : 1066 points Date : 2022-05-17 14:27 UTC (8 hours ago) (HTM) web link (smallandroidphone.com) (TXT) w3m dump (smallandroidphone.com) | grwthckrmstr wrote: | Using the Pixel 4a. Basically the perfect form factor and size. | I'd upgrade every 2-3 years to a new version of the same phone | with minor updates like the chipset etc. | | Dreading the day I'll have to start searching for a replacement | :( | dbrgn wrote: | The Pixel 3a (my current phone) has a 5.6" screen, the 4a has a | 5.8" screen and the Pixel 5 has a 6" screen. However, they're | all approximately the same physical size, it's just the bezels | that got smaller. | dont__panic wrote: | The 4a is actually a smidge smaller than the 3a. Much easier | to handle, IMO, though not quite ideal. | | Your point about bezels getting smaller is very true for the | phones you mentioned. But you also left out the Pixel 4a 5G, | the Pixel 5a, the Pixel 6, the Pixel 6 Pro, and the Pixel 6a. | Which all ballooned massively in _physical_ size relative to | their predecessors. | gertlex wrote: | Same... Used the Pixel 2 before that. Probably will buy a spare | 4a on ebay soon. | soylentgraham wrote: | Im still on an iphone SE (same shell as 5s) and waiting for | another iphone this small. The mini is still too big! | | I mean, I was a big fan of the nokia 8210, the iphone nano (the | long one) and the razr when it first came out. | | I dont watch tv/films on my phone because Im not insane, give me | a smaller one! | orangepurple wrote: | Has anybody tried the $32 SOYES XS11 or $70 or UNIWA XS11 | | It's a 2.5 inch 3G Android phone. http://www.cwell- | hk.com/products/SOYES_XS11.aspx | | Lots of small Android phones are in the recommended section on | cwell-hk in the $40 range. | amyjess wrote: | Unfortunately, the lack of LTE makes it unusable in the US. | spicybright wrote: | I wouldn't recommend them. Almost every single one is using a | very old version of android. | | Which is surprisingly usable, but there are some apps that | don't work. | | I also wouldn't actually log into _anything_ unless you 're ok | being pwned. No security patches, plus sketchy cheap as dirt | chips running it. | | You can also not type on it. Maybe a sentence, but it'll take | you 3x as long if not more trying to correct typos. If you do | any text based communication, you're going to have a bad time. | | Overall, not worth it. | orangepurple wrote: | Right, but can they be hacked to run vanilla upgraded | software? | dont__panic wrote: | > 3G | | Considering how much USA cell companies are trying to kill 3G, | and the fact that 4G/LTE has been around for over a decade | now... I'm not sure this makes sense for anybody any more. | moffkalast wrote: | > Android 6.0 Operation System | | They're kidding, right? | orangepurple wrote: | China/HK is wild | dleslie wrote: | Those look lovely. | | Now can I have one with Android 11 and a halfway decent camera? | MassPikeMike wrote: | The newer, 3.0 inch XS12 from the same manufacturer has 4G LTE | and Android 9.0. It's in the $80 range. | | http://www.cwell-hk.com/products/SOYES_XS12.aspx | orangepurple wrote: | Seems like we just need a modernized XS12 with the correct | frequencies | erohead wrote: | I'm a long-time small phone Android user. But after the Pixel 5, | I have not been able to find a suitable small Android | replacement. The Pixel 6 is gigantic, and the Pixel 7 looks like | it is also destined to be huge. It's gotten so bad that I've | resorted to using an iPhone Mini, biding my time and hoping | desperately that some Android OEM would step up. | | But it's increasingly clear that a small premium phone is not on | the roadmap. So I've decided to take matters into my own hands. | My goal with https://smallandroidphone.com is to rally other fans | of small phones together and put pressure on | Google/Samsung/Anyone to consider making a small phone. | | I have a very specific set of skills and industry connections | that I have acquired over a long career in the hardware business | (my first startup was Pebble). I will put them to use in our | shared quest to get the perfect small Android phone. If no one | else builds one, and enough people sign up...maybe I will be | forced to make it myself. | | If you want a small premium Android phone, this may be your last | chance (ever?) to help bring back the phone category that we | love. | jray wrote: | One of the reasons I want a small phone is because I already | have other devices with a larger screen: computer, laptop and | tablet. That's why I want it to be cheap, I have already spent | a lot on different devices and for the little use I give it I | want it to be cheap and small. | achow wrote: | Curious how would you solve the battery issue, since in your | spec you mention 4Hrs of Screen On Time (SoT), and it would be | a 5G phone (battery drainer)? | | iPhone Mini with its H/W & S/W integration barely manages 4Hrs | of SoT. An 'Android Mini' phone with its mini batteries, how | can it match upto iPhone Mini? And mind you, low sale of iPhone | Mini is also due to the 'battery/range anxiety' that its users | have. | | Upon that any Mini form factor needs to be even less thinner, | as visual perception of thickness is inversely proportional to | a form's face/back surface area. So for this mini phone to be | reasonably attractive (not chunky) it needs to have a very slim | profile; which translate to small battery. | wing-_-nuts wrote: | It's pretty damning that when one searches for 'best small | android phone' the pixel 5a (massive!) is at the top of most | lists. | mertd wrote: | Maybe they are conflating Pixel 5 and 5a. 5a is larger but 5 | while still a big phone, is not that bad. | [deleted] | jjav wrote: | I bought a Palm Phone as soon as it came out, it is the perfect | phone. Basically same size as the old Motorola Razr but even a | bit thinner. | | I'm very sad they discountinued it. I hope mine lasts forever | or that either Palm or someone else fills this market gap for a | small phone. If this initiative does it, thank you! | | My highest requirement for a phone is that it easily fits into | the front pocket of tight jeans so I can't ever even feel that | it is there. The Palm Phone meets this requirement, haven't | found anything else that does. | nix0n wrote: | Without a 3.5mm headphone jack, I would have to carry wireless | earbuds, which would defeat the purpose. | carlhjerpe wrote: | With a 3.5mm jack you would have to carry wired earbuds, | which would defeat the purpose...? | littlecranky67 wrote: | You just need a small adapter cable (1-2inch long) as on the | iPhone, which is a fraction of your headphone. | interestica wrote: | The thing I never understood about the headphone jack and its | disappearance: it doesn't need to be a jack. It need only be | three contact points. You could have it on the outside rim of | a phone and have a magnetic sheath hold the headphone pin to | it. But I suppose it's not just about getting rid of the jack | itself but also any DAC component? (But, isn't it doing that | anyway for the speaker?) | Kirby64 wrote: | The amplifier used for headphones is very different than | what is used to drive a speaker. It's a totally different | component. Also, remember, it's doing much more than just | pumping audio out. Modern 3.5mm jacks on phones are 4 pin, | generally, and you have to do the following (or, at least | most of it): | | * Detect if something is plugged in | | * Detect if the thing plugged in is a 3 pin (stereo | speakers), or 4 pin (stereo speakers, plus microphone) | | * Detect what type of 4 pin configuration is connected | (there are 2 standards, CTIA and OMTP) | | * Detect button presses from attached headphones (volume | up/down, pause/play) | | * Detect the type of headphones connected (do I want to use | the high impedance driver, or the low impedance driver) | | And obviously: play stereo audio and record mono audio. | | There's also some lesser used features that are sometimes | supported over 3.5mm: | | * Video output (!!) | | * Antenna input, for use for FM radio | | * Stereo audio input | | * Optical out (not through 3.5mm TRRS, but it is at the end | of the 3.5mm jack... Apple used to use these in their | macbook pros) | [deleted] | innocenat wrote: | We have (had?) that. It's called USB-C Audio Accessory | Mode. | Bud wrote: | DAC is still there. Current iPhones can still use wired | headphones, via the Lightning/headphone jack adapter. That | adapter was included free in the box for a while. Now it's | $9 or something. | einr wrote: | The adapter includes/is a DAC. The Lightning port is | fully digital and cannot carry analog audio. | antihero wrote: | You can get very very good audio with something like the | UTWS5 and then you can use top end IEMs. | djbusby wrote: | Pixel3 here, cause it's still pretty small (but not too small) | prutschman wrote: | I get that tastes vary and some people apparently don't mind | the hole punch in the display, but I'm curious why you list its | presence as a hard requirement. It seems like it would make the | display unnecessarily harder to source. | eertami wrote: | Similar user, and I have no idea if there will be anything left | to buy after the Pixel 4a. I expect the 4a will be good enough | for another 3 years at-least, if there are no accidents. | | Hopefully by then there is something available which continues | the form factor. 4a has been the perfect successor to the Nexus | 4, it's a little taller but other than that has practically the | same footprint. | | With the 6a moving in a different direction (eg: removing the | headphone jack) I'm just hoping someone else comes along as a | spiritual successor for the Pixel Xa-series. | tabiv wrote: | I've been looking into the Asus Zenfone 8 to replace my 4a | eventually. It's expensive but it's compact. | yxhuvud wrote: | I like the form factor of mine. Only thing I don't like | with it is the battery time, which is shorter than I'd have | preferred. But I bought it almost a year ago now, there | might be a new model coming that fixes that. | nicpottier wrote: | Snag up a lightly used Pixel 5 while you can. You get 5G and | it is basically the same form factor, just a bit better all | around. (I've had both and the Pixel5 is a step up for sure) | eertami wrote: | The 5 was already available here when I purchased the 4a | (Europe), but the 5 was twice as expensive - which is hard | to justify for "a bit better". | | A headphone jack is much more useful for me personally than | 5G, so I happily saved the money. | alfiedotwtf wrote: | Another Pixel 4a user here. I haven't found a single | compelling reason to move to another phone, and will drive | this one into the ground... Hopefully there's a suitable | replacement once it's dead, otherwise I'll just buy another | 4a | makeitdouble wrote: | I am also planning to move from a 4a, and at this point it | would be either a Sharp R7 (probably not available | internationally though) or a Sony Xperia 10 IV. | | The Sony seems to be the best alternative though I have no | idea of the software quality. | amyjess wrote: | > Sony Xperia 10 IV | | Unfortunately, it looks like it won't be sold in the US. | Does it support US LTE bands so I can import it at least? | makeitdouble wrote: | Band support seems to be better, though I'm not sure | which band would work in the US. Also they haven't | announced the non carrier bundled model yet, so I'm stil | waiting as well to see how it pans out. | bscphil wrote: | Thank you for working on this! I want to be honest, though, and | say I think you're missing what the _majority_ of users on this | forum want in a small phone. | | > Sub 6" display, matching size and design of iPhone 13 Mini | | No, bad. What most of us want are the particular set of trade- | offs made by phones around 2015. Design wise, that means that | you've got to have another hole in the bezel, because there's | going to be an earphone jack. That's apparently anathema for | modern phones, but probably 90+% of us want it. Again, that's | Hacker News specific. I haven't polled the market in general. I | just know that I (and many others) won't consider buying your | phone unless it has a jack. | | Likewise, I have not much interest in a phone with a hole | punched in the screen (?!) for a camera or an ugly "notch". I | realize this is more controversial, but I don't know the last | time I even used a front camera. I think it's more in keeping | with the ideal 2015 design to make the bezel just large enough | to contain a camera, speakers, light sensor, flash/LED, etc. I | would reluctantly buy a phone with a camera hole if it was | otherwise acceptable and there was no ideal option on the | market. | | I'd prefer if the back were completely flat as well, with no | camera bump. That's totally just my aesthetic preference | though, I don't know how others feel. I think it should be | possible to achieve this if we're going back to not worshiping | thinness, and making the small phone thicker for the sake of | battery life. | | I'd also prefer a 16x9 display to whatever Apple is doing now. | So much web video is still 16x9. | ako wrote: | No bad. I don't want those iritating headphone wires. Also a | phone that doesn't mind being dropped in water, so no | headphone jack please. Notch is not really an issue, front | facing camera is useful for video-calls. And i don't have a | camera bump, that's solved by the case. Also, no idea what | i'd do with memory cards, there's plenty memory in the my | phone. | | The iphone 13 mini works well for me. No idea if this | represents anybody elso on HN... | bscphil wrote: | > Also a phone that doesn't mind being dropped in water, so | no headphone jack please. | | People have somehow managed to forget this, but phones have | been waterproof since ... basically forever without | forgoing a headphone jack. I could link probably half the | phones made between 2012-2017, but this phone is actually | linked by the site itself: | https://www.theverge.com/2015/10/16/9549247/sony- | xperia-z5-r... | | Honestly, I'm not sure what the issue is supposed to be | here. I've literally never, in 12 years of owning a | smartphone, dropped it in water. I have no clue how that's | even supposed to happen short of it falling into a river. | | Since this is a small phone, I suspect most people will | probably not be using a case that adds significantly to the | size. Just a guess on my part though. I can live with a | camera bump if I have to, I just think a lot of us miss the | candy bar designs of ~2014-2015. | tastyfreeze wrote: | I am typing this from a waterproof phone with a USB C port | and headphone jack. Yes, I have put it underwater. There | were plenty of waterproof phones with headphone jacks | before flagships dropped the port. | BugsJustFindMe wrote: | > _Design wise, that means that you 've got to have another | hole in the bezel, because there's going to be an earphone | jack. That's apparently anathema for modern phones, but | probably 90+% of us want it. Again, that's Hacker News | specific. I haven't polled the market in general. I just know | that I (and many others) won't consider buying your phone | unless it has a jack._ | | Your jump from "I want" to "90+% of us want" is an egregious | failure in reasoning. You say that you haven't polled the | greater market, but you also haven't even polled HN. | bscphil wrote: | That's fair. On the other hand, if there's a single issue | with modern phones that gets HN users raging more than | their size, it's the lack of a headphone jack. I don't | think I've seen a single issue that's been more complained | about. The dominant narrative on HN seems to be that even | if one doesn't use headphones personally, the removal of | the jack served no purpose other than to pad the pockets of | Apple. (Someone even managed to modify their iPhone to add | an internal jack without breaking it, so it was definitely | possible for Apple to do so without compromises.) | BugsJustFindMe wrote: | This is a bias in what you notice, not what people care | about. Some people care strongly about headphone jacks, | but until you have data indicating that some==most, you | shouldn't let that feeling turn into a population-based | argument. | bscphil wrote: | That's entirely possible, but this whole _thread_ is | based on exactly the same perception! The claim, possibly | false, is that a sizable portion of HN users want _small_ | phones. That could be just visibility bias as well! | | My comment is asserting that if we're assuming that the | narrative on HN around small phones is not just sampling | bias, then it's also good to assume that the narrative | around a headphone jack is not just sampling bias. That | means we have to believe that a large percentage of users | looking for a small phone are also looking for a | headphone jack - basically, what I called a "2015" | design. | dspillett wrote: | I'd love a small primary phone with good battery life for | general use (SMS/IM, and (shock!) making/taking calls). | Relatively low resolution screen would not be a problem at all. | | But I, like most people I expect, also use my phone for many | other uses some of which make good use of a larger screen at | higher resolution: in-car GPS and while running/walking out on | the trails, web browsing and social media stuff that would not | be pleasant on smaller screens, occasionally video. The better | screen necessitates a bigger battery too, increasing the weight | and size a bit more. | | I'm not sure there is a solution for that, other than perhaps | carrying two devices around. Most people would not be happy | with that solution and tethering the bigger device to the | smaller ones (so they share internet connectivity instead of | both needing SIMs & paid accounts) will reduce the battery life | of the small device noticeably (running the 4G/5G and WiFi | radios constantly being quite a drain I find, when tethering a | laptop to my main current phone). | | For a lot of people who would want the smaller phone, there is | a secondary need for which they want the larger one too, and | putting up with a big device for everything is likely to be the | preferable "compromise" compared to carrying two devices. | | I've considered the two device approach, but the only really | small phones (significantly smaller than my current main | device) I found were cheap Chinese imports and one of the first | corners cut on those is using a cheap battery that won't last | long on active use. Battery life is why my current phone is | large than the previous one (which was already larger than I'd | prefer often) as it can last a goodly while in active use (GPS | and screen on). | | _tl;cbatr:_ I suppose the point of this directionless | rambling, is that I think the market for a smaller device, | people who would actually buy one rather than just those who | think it is something that should exist, is smaller than you | hope. | kelnos wrote: | > _in-car GPS and while running /walking out on the trails, | web browsing and social media stuff that would not be | pleasant on smaller screens, occasionally video_ | | I think the last time I considered screen size a limiting | factor for these activities was when the flagship phones had | 4.5" screens or so. We've gone well beyond what's needed for | me to find the screen large enough for regular activities, | and well into the realm where I find using my phone with one | hand to be uncomfortable. | dspillett wrote: | Size isn't the reason I went with the larger phone last | time I upgraded - it was the longer active (rather than | standby) battery life. I can be a fair distance from any | source of power for a goodly time and not worry about it | shutting down for that reason. Even smaller devices (of | those easily available at the time) showed less endurance | in independent tests, due to having the smaller battery in | their smaller form and/or less advanced chipsets, the | exception being one with a lower resolution screen but that | was a compromise point too. | ohyoutravel wrote: | This is where I am. Love the idea of a small phone like the | android Palm Phone, and almost bought one. But my iPhone 13 | Pro Max is basically so big I use it in place of my laptop | for many, many things. So it basically replaces my dslr | because of the camera quality and my laptop unless I'm | writing software. Though I would love a small phone, I didn't | buy the Palm which would have been perfect for when I'm | running or something, so I'm not sure I would buy this, even | though I want it to exist. | | Palm phone fwiw also got discontinued for lack of interest as | far as I know. | aidenn0 wrote: | Palm phone was expensive with garbage specs. But I suppose | I was never in the market for it; I wanted a phone that was | good enough to be my only phone. | throwaway675309 wrote: | I would think if you were running that you would prefer a | smaller screen, having to stick a gigantic slab in my pocket | whenever I transition from my walk to my jog constantly | reminds me that I've got a brick flopping around in my | shorts. | | I never had a problem using a GPS on a small iPhone hooked up | to a magnet on my dash in my car before, I can't imagine an | extra inch and a half of real estate making that much of a | difference. | scarface74 wrote: | > I'm not sure there is a solution for that, other than | perhaps carrying two devices around. Most people would not be | happy with that solution and tethering the bigger device to | the smaller ones (so they share internet connectivity instead | of both needing SIMs & paid accounts) | | People do that all of the time and gladly pay the extra $10 | for a smaller "phone" - the cellular Apple Watch. | | I will leave my phone in a heartbeat when I'm going to the | gym, the pool, or anywhere else where a large phone isn't | convenient and I still want to be able to keep in touch with | people | bhandziuk wrote: | I just had to throw away my Pebble Time ~1 month ago. It was | the best watch I could have asked for but I got some ocean | water in it and it wouldn't dry out this time :( I am also | using an Moto G7 Play android phone from like 2018 because it's | the only small phone I could find for a reasonable price. I | would love to see you make something like this! | shahar2k wrote: | please reverse the order you list the phones in your last | image... no reason other than it irks me that the lowest phone | in the image is listed highest and vice versa | stratosmacker wrote: | I have an iphone SE 2016 because I too felt that new Androids | were too big, switched in 2019. If too many people are upset at | the price maybe you could have an Android Mini-a like the Pixel | line. | | I had the first Pebble and have fond memories. I have high | hopes for this!!!! I also love hardware but I never made it | stick for work. I was one of the first engineers at Mesur.io, | but things didn't work out. | | My other thought would be to make this highly configurable; | there is a large cohort of HN crowd who also want an un-Googled | Android phone, myself included. There are no un-Googled small | android phones, however with Project Treble many of them can | run GSIs such as this most popular one | https://github.com/phhusson/treble_experimentations/releases . | Of course Lineage OS deserves a mention, maybe you could ship | with that, build on what the community already offers. | | The Unihertz line of phones deserves mention, but also scorn; | they do NOT support their old hardware at all. The Jelly had 1 | update to Android 8.1 and was left for dead. Additionally the | system updater software included in the stock ROM was spyware. | So unfortunately they were written off in my book. | | Finally, I would like to see band 71 LTE availability for | T-Mobile in the US. It really makes a big difference in the | sticks. Unihertz does not support that, and for that reason I | am sticking with my iPhone SE 2016 for the moment (until I find | a small Android phone....) | | Can't wait to hear more! | dr_ wrote: | I wonder how much of the limited sales of the iPhone mini could | be attributed to the branding? What if Apple were to drop the | mini and make this the base iPhone, with the other models being | Plus, Pro, Max? Margins may be poorer with Mini, so it likely | won't happen, but I feel mini sales could be much higher if | they wanted them to be. | mgkimsal wrote: | > Margins may be poorer with Mini, | | But they don't necessarily have to be. We've never had an | option where, for the same price, you could choose screen | sizes. There's a sizable portion of people for whom larger | phones are simply difficult to use. Would I have paid an | extra $50 for my iPhone 12 mini? Yep, because I was buying | based on the size, not the price. | | This is so weird compared to 20 years ago, where the smaller | the phone was, the more expensive it was. The big bulky | phones were a sign that you couldn't afford the smaller one. | A few friends joke that I couldn't afford a 'real' phone when | I pull out my 12 mini, which... is nuts because I bought it | outright, and a couple of them worry about 'when can I | upgrade? oh, let me check how many more payments I have on | this current model'. | rootusrootus wrote: | That's not a totally fair comparison, because before | smartphones there was no inherent advantage to a phone | being larger. You got exactly the same features either way, | so miniature was premium. Now the big screen is the premium | feature. | dan-robertson wrote: | Yeah you can imagine two purposes for the mini: | | 1. Cheaper iPhone | | 2. You don't want to carry a big iPhone and you have a | Mac/iPad nearby anyway for anything complicated so a big | phone is unnecessary. | | The second case should motivate wanting eg their 'pro' | cameras in the small phone but the first case motivates | making it cheap and low-margin. You can also imagine a world | where apple markets a mini phone as also being an optional | companion to a bigger phone, but they already have the watch | for that. | vladvasiliu wrote: | But they could have both things in two separate models. | | Wasn't the 11 pro the size of the mini / SE? I don't | remember whether there was an 11 mini, but it seems to me | that 11 pro / SE were exactly that, and the current minis / | se are the size of the 7/8/se/11 pro. | | I the time I couldn't justify buying a new phone, but I | remember late last year, when I figured I could start | looking, I was possibly contemplating getting the 13 pro, | for the camera. But when I saw how huge it was, I | immediately abandoned the idea. | pge wrote: | first gen SE is smallest, and both it and the 2nd/3rd gen | SE are smaller than the 11 pro (though the latter is | closer, only 0.2" smaller in both length and width). | | The iphone 12 mini and 13 mini are both smaller than the | 2nd/3rd gen SE but larger than the 1st gen SE. | | The 2nd/3rd gen SE is the same size as the iphone 8. | mikepurvis wrote: | I used a first-gen SE up until last year and thought it | was great. I know it was super old, but it being really | small was one of the biggest selling points of it for me. | gopalv wrote: | > 1. Cheaper iPhone | | > 2. You don't want to carry a big iPhone | | If you add those two up, you get "Middle school kids". | | Though the apple watch with its own SIM has solved some of | the "contact device without instagram" needs that parents | want with their kids. | mtoner23 wrote: | Sounds like you've answered your own question. Margins are | lower, why would they want to sell more of those compared to | the regular iphones? | torstenvl wrote: | So increase the price? | | As a criminal defense attorney, I will never own a FaceID | device. Ever. I owned an iPhone 7, then an iPhone 8, then | an iPhone SE 2020, then another iPhone SE 2020. I may | upgrade to the iPhone SE 2022. | | Cost is not an issue for me. I don't buy the iPhone SE | because I'm cheap. I buy the iPhone SE because it is, on | balance, hands down the best phone Apple makes right now | for people who value convenience, portability, and | security. | | I tried the iPhone Mini when I broke my first iPhone SE | while hiking. I don't trust FaceID to work when I want it | to (masks, glasses vs contacts, etc. tripped it up). I | don't trust FaceID _not_ to work when I _don 't_ want it | to. I ended up returning it and going back to the SE. | | I don't think I'm alone. | twobitshifter wrote: | Just an idea in case they kill touchid options: if you | get an apple watch you can keep your phone unlocked when | nearby and just disable faceid. | | They have also recently improved FaceID to work with | masks on, so the situation has improved since you tested | the mini. | pwinnski wrote: | Can you not... disable FaceID? | | You can set any iPhone to use a passcode every time, | disable TouchID, FaceID, whatever. | pvarangot wrote: | Yes you can disable FaceID unlock. I only use it for not | very important apps but just unlock my phone with a | passcode. You can also set the time for how long to wait | until your phone requires the passcode again, and you can | set that so that when you lock, the passcode is needed | immediately after. | Bud wrote: | FaceID can be disabled. Reliably. Not sure I see what the | issue is here. | | You can also quickly, discreetly, and temporarily disable | it, for instance if you are stopped by police. So this | just isn't a real issue. | mgkimsal wrote: | I stuck with the 12 mini, vs going to another SE (had SE | for years). I miss the Touch ID. A lot. Having to look at | something, then swipe up, then ... do other stuff to get | back to the home screen, instead of literally just | putting my thumb on a button the pressing it... it's so | much more convenience. Of course, you can just turn off | the face stuff altogether, but you lose some security | (and IIRC, some of payment stuff won't work?) | rescbr wrote: | I have bought the iPhone SE 2022 mainly because it has | TouchID. Being cheaper is just icing on the cake. | shawn-butler wrote: | Just curious what impact / relevance does being a | criminal defense attorney have on using a device with | FaceID? | codeslave13 wrote: | IANAL. But from what i gather you cant be compelled to | enter a passcode or forces to unlock phone with a | fingerprint. There is no clear such protections for face. | torstenvl wrote: | More or less. In my jurisdiction you _can_ be compelled | to give up biometrics, which has been expanded to include | biometric unlocking. However, it requires a separate | authorization, which in many cases will take long enough | for the paperwork for TouchID to time out, and passcodes | cannot be compelled (again, in my jurisdiction). There is | no such protection for directing you to look at your | phone. | | For clients under investigation who have FaceID or | similar unlocking for phones or computers, we _always_ | recommend they disable it and just use a passcode until | the investigation is complete. | hamburglar wrote: | Like you advise your clients, no matter what the law | says, you can't be compelled to unlock your phone with | FaceID if you don't set up FaceID on your phone. I don't | understand why this would prevent you from buying one. | torstenvl wrote: | Yes. The security mitigation for FaceID is to disable it | entirely. That is why it's a subpar solution for "people | who value _convenience_ , portability, _and security_ ," | which is the topic of this subthread. | | It's also why FaceID is a poor fit for me and for people | whose preferences and usage parameters are similar to | mine. | | Fighting the parameters just to fight seems... | unnecessary. | rich_sasha wrote: | Very interesting - what is there _specifically_ about | being a criminal defence attorney that makes you district | FaceID? Data sharing issues? Securing personal / work | data? | | I'm not disagreeing, I'm very wary of these mechanisms, | just curious about your thought process. | daemin wrote: | Not OP but from various laws around the world Police can | generally use something physical to unlock your device - | your face, your thumb - but they cannot get you to put in | your password or pass code without a warrant. | | Granted this kind of breaks down at borders where they | have special laws, but for inside various countries it | still holds. | eropple wrote: | You don't have to enable FaceID, though. | scarface74 wrote: | And in various places around the world, police use rubber | hose decryption... | skylanh wrote: | > In a 2014 case out of a Virginia state court that seems | to have set off the current debate, police obtained a | search warrant to search a suspect's home and to seize | various items, including his smartphone that had TouchID | enabled. | | > The judge in that case drew a bright line: Under the | Fifth Amendment, police could not force the suspect to | communicate his passcode, but they could force him to use | his fingerprint to unlock the device. The reason? | | > Providing a fingerprint was "non-testimonial," because | it did not require the suspect to produce anything from | his own mind. On the other hand, to give up your personal | passcode is classically testimonial, since it comes from | your head. | | https://www.aclu.org/blog/privacy- | technology/surveillance-te... | easton wrote: | Which is why Apple put in a kill switch for Face ID (or | Touch ID), if you hold down the power button (or power | and volume down for newer iPhones) until the "Slide to | Power Off" screen appears, the next unlock will require | your passcode. | macintux wrote: | Additionally, just because a phone has Face ID doesn't | mean you're obligated to configure it. | scarface74 wrote: | Because we all know that police always operate within the | law and would _never_ lie about coercing a suspect to | unlock their phone. | | Or, if they really wanted the phone unlocked, they could | just follow the suspect and tackle him while he is using | it. | | https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/12/uk-police- | unlock... | binkHN wrote: | IANAL, but you might be compelled to give up a | fingerprint, face or other biometric access options; you | cannot be compelled to give up a passphrase or something | stored in your mind. | chrischen wrote: | I want to add another comment here supporting the fact that the | camera is probably the main device feature I care about, and | why I end up with a phone fancier and bigger than I'd like, and | maybe second most important factor is battery life. | taude wrote: | I have a Pixel 4a, and I'm in agreement with you. I'm thinking | about jumping to an iPhone Mini, however, even Apple doesn't | seem to be making a new version of that.... | rsyring wrote: | The Pixel 5 was just right IMO. I upgraded to a Pixel 6 after | the fingerprint sensor had problems. The first thing I noticed | was it was too big. I liked the size of the five much better. | sudosteph wrote: | Thank you for taking initiative on this! As a 5'5" woman with | small hands, I haven't had an android phone that I could use | with one-hand since my Nexus 5 (which I used for 5 years | straight). The current android flagships are unwieldy even with | two-hands for me, and it's been just a quality of living | downgrade ever since my Nexus 5 broke. I'm not into apple | products myself, but I know many other women swear by the | iphone mini since it's the only phone that fits their hands. | rodgerd wrote: | I'm a fairly large person (185 cm and decent sized hands), | but I prefer the mini, and in my Android days used the Xperia | mini. I don't particularly want a large phone on a day-to-day | basis. | | Unfortunately it seems that it's a niche that doesn't | generate enough revenue to get broader support. | WolfRazu wrote: | What did you think of the Pixel 5? It's only 0.5cm taller and | otherwise more or less identical in dimensions. | davee5 wrote: | Hi Eric, I'm a hardware startup guy myself (our paths have | crossed) with the distinction that my own "very specific set of | skills" has been honed at smartphone megacompanies and | smartphone startups. OSOM, Essential, HTC, Samsung, Apple. I've | designed and built a lot of phones. I'm building one now. I | think this is a noble effort, I personally prefer pocketable | phones too, but I think there are nigh-insurmountable hurdles | in your paths forward. | | - 1. Supply chain / component R&D - | | You will be very, very hard pressed to source a pre-existing, | high quality, non-exclusive 5.4" display with a hole punch. If | you end up doing this as your own startup then you're going to | start by trying to buy off the shelf parts to keep costs down. | But that display you want is simply not on any of the | development roadmaps for the major component manufacturers. The | industry has its own momentum, and the component suppliers have | also been looking at the trendlines so they are building bigger | and bigger. | | If you can't find the screen you want in a catalogue then you | have to pay someone to build it. Convincing BOE et. al that | your phone will sell enough to pay off R&D costs is unlikely, | so be prepared to pay several million bucks in NRE to make it | worth their time (it might still not be) and the wait a year | for them to spin up the fabs. So ~$5M and 9-18 months later you | have a display. | | - 2. Big players are uninterested, not uninformed - | | Big companies are drowning in market data. They know some | people really, really want small phones. But it's a long-tail | opportunity they're willfully ignoring, and people who need | phones will still buy _something_ even if reluctantly. I 've | been in the meetings, small phone advocacy goes nowhere. | | Also I'm a little surprised you're hoping an online petition | will work after your prior experience trying to influence your | acquirers. I presume you saw the inside of Fitbit / Google and | how decisions are made... | derefr wrote: | > You will be very, very hard pressed to source a pre- | existing, high quality, non-exclusive 5.4" display with a | hole punch | | How about getting one of those foldable screens in the larger | standard size, and then just... tucking away the excess | inside the phone body? | | Y'know, like the marketing material for the iPhone X claimed | it was doing: https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main- | qimg-0fd6daf2b9b742bf5dbf10... (though it actually wasn't.) | Pasorrijer wrote: | You helped design the HTC EVO 3D!! I loved that phone what a | great design. | nine_k wrote: | I go to aliexpress, and I see a number of 4" screens. Some | even come with capacitive touch sensors mounted on top. | | Yes, they are low-resolution by today's standards, something | like 800x480. Still, they are available for those who might | be considering to produce a really compact phone. Instead, | they go to high-end coffee machines and the like, and to RPi | tinkerers. | | My hunch that the limiting factor would mostly be the | battery. Modern radios and modern CPUs and GPUs consume more, | and you don't want to market a very slow phone, or a phone | that has 6 hours of daily usage worth of battery. And you | can't hide as much battery behind a small screen. | ufmace wrote: | I suspect that part of the problem is that, as measured by | actual purchases, people don't really prioritize small size | and displays that much. | | Look at how long all of the requirement lists posted around | these threads are. Some people really want a nice camera, | some a headphone jack, some a SD card or big battery etc. I | would expect that it's a fact of life in a small phone that | you can't fit everything anyone might want, but everyone has | a different list of must-haves, making it much harder to make | one device that all of the small-phone-wanter market will | actually buy. | | And price. If you really want some one-off thing, you've | gotta pay more for it. Would you pay $2k, $3k, more for a | great small phone? Seems likely that such prices would help a | lot at getting them made. But in reality, people seem to | refuse to pay more than a modest markup over the mainstream | model with tens of millions produced. Sorry folks, I don't | think it works like that. | tazjin wrote: | > Some people really want a nice camera, some a headphone | jack, some a SD card or big battery etc | | We used to have these things in small form factors. Those | of us annoyed by where the big companies forced the | direction of development are mostly very aware that things | have regressed hard. | nousermane wrote: | Talking about notch/hole-punch displays. As somebody who | never ever uses front-facing camera, can I have a | phone/display without such defects, please? | brnaftr361 wrote: | Yeah, no kidding. How much of the small phone demo overlaps | with the selfie demo? I could go without a front camera. | [deleted] | dorfsmay wrote: | I love a small phone but I need the front cam for quick | video calls. | | Front camera, 3mm headset jack are must for me. If I | could get a notification LED too... You might be able to | get a lot of money out of me! | nfoz wrote: | "selfie"? Video-calls are especially normalized now, | since the pandemic. My family and friends use video-calls | more often than voice-only calls now. | masklinn wrote: | Front cameras are also useful for other stuff e.g. taking | angled pictures with little visibility is much easier | with the front facing camera because _you can see what | you 're aiming at_. | | It can even take pictures in the dark because the display | will be used as a floodlight, though in that case aiming | doesn't really work unless the software brightening is | sufficient to at least gain an idea. | | Front camera also works as a mirror in a pinch, much | easier than trying to aim the back camera then flipping | the phone around and finding out how off you were. | | Do people taking selfies even use the front camera? I | feel like image quality is really rather poor for that | use case but it's not my jam. | brnaftr361 wrote: | You do that on the phone? I'd never. | | And nobody I know has changed their communication. | Discord, text, call. Everyone in my milieu is _painfully_ | average. | dorfsmay wrote: | A lot of people on my circles have moved to Signal, and | we do short video calls. | jan_g wrote: | Nobody? I'm sort of in the same boat (I quite dislike | video calls), but my extended family (from young to 60+) | have started during pandemic and now continue to video | call each other quite regularly - including group video | calls. | | As I said, not my preference and I rarely join, but for | example my wife does video calls almost on a daily basis. | So the "selfie" camera seems to be increasingly an | important feature for the regular user. | brnaftr361 wrote: | I've seen it used once and to a disastrous result. I | kinda feel like there are other workarounds too: | | I remember one of the Motorola phones was designed for | expansions, but that was pre-USB C. If you had a | horizontally symmetrical phone, maybe widgets could solve | the problem? Front facing and rear facing, while also | being privacy respecting, no notch necessary, and similar | resolution to boot. so maybe easier to source. Free up | some room on the SOC and relieve some complexity while | providing the added benefit of port protection. | Presumably this could be applied to SD and obviously | 3.5mm jacks. | cercatrova wrote: | No, because there are so few of people with your opinion | that those types of phones will not sell enough to recoup | costs, much less make a profit. At most, you can buy a | phone with a pop-up camera (the OnePlus 7T Pro is nice, | although a few years old now) [0]. | | [0] https://www.androidauthority.com/pop-up-camera-phones- | slider... | dsr_ wrote: | The popup selfie cam on the 7pro is very, very good, | because: | | a) guaranteed not to be on until it's out | | b) never eats screen space, ever | | My current phone is a 7pro. I haven't seen a good | replacement yet. | deckard1 wrote: | same. It's a shame OnePlus decided to drop the popup | camera. They had a really solid mechanism. Going back to | a screen with a notch or hole just feels primitive. | Saint_Genet wrote: | If you sum together the stuff people in this thread has | suggested, you have the Homers Car of phones on your hands | mjevans wrote: | It's this or a Youtube clip that's maybe monetized by | Disney at best... | https://simpsons.fandom.com/wiki/The_Homer | | The Homer was a car that Home Simpson built to exactly | what they wanted without any tradeoffs for off the shelf | components, trends, or sensibility of what currently was | common. | | It's also somewhat design by committee, with features | like a more luxurious bubble for the adults, and a micro- | bubble for the kids; presumably so you can ignore | anything but the screams or silence. | | I also suspect this fictional car might have been an | ingredient in the market shifting from minivans to SUVs. | Those don't have such great audio isolation but were even | taller than the minivans (which were taller than station | wagons). Or it could be the 'backup camera' finally | reaching a tolerable price level. | 7speter wrote: | I also suspect this fictional car might have been an | ingredient in the market shifting from minivans to SUVs | | The simpsons also did the canyonero: | | https://youtu.be/PI_Jl5WFQkA | lowercased wrote: | Didn't Homer buy the women's model? Was it the F-series? | gopher_space wrote: | It's really just the iPhone 3GS. | [deleted] | shdon wrote: | Indeed. Those notches, hole-punches etc, I could do | without. I very much prefer to have a bit of bezel and have | a proper screen (preferably even with angular corners, | rather than rounded corners). This also helps when handing | the phone to somebody else to show them something... they | have a place to hold the darn thing without accidentally | swiping, tapping, or - worst of all - hitting the back | button. | [deleted] | Tijdreiziger wrote: | Apparently, Android now has an option to emulate a bezel, | thus hiding the hole-punch camera. | boring_twenties wrote: | On my G7 Play with LineageOS, I was able to "disable" the | notch -- that is, draw a black bar around it, and have a | proper rectangular display with a full-width status bar | right below it. | | Works great, especially considering the display is not | _quite_ small enough for me in the first place. | timoth wrote: | You can do that with the stock Android too, once you've | enabled the developer options in settings. The setting | needed is "Display cutout" --> "Hide". | srmarm wrote: | It probably wouldn't work well for a small phone, by my | oppo has a pop up camera which works much better than I'd | expected. | | Majority of the time I enjoy a full screen experience with | a tiny bezel. If I need the selfie cam it silently and very | quickly is there. | | I think they didn't catch on as they are complicated and | inhibit IP68 ratings. | | But I think I'll struggle to move on from it. The notches | and hole punch cameras just look like an irritating defect | when I use them. | bscphil wrote: | > people who need phones will still buy something even if | reluctantly | | I'll be blunt: no I won't. I reluctantly bought the phone I | still use (a moto X4) back in 2019, at which point it was | already getting old. It was one of the smaller Android phones | available at the time; I measured it diagonally corner to | corner (including bezel) at 159 mm (6.26 inches). The screen | size is 130 mm (5.2 in) according to Wikipedia. This phone is | in fact much too big for me, and I'm not happy with it. | | But I will be sticking with this phone into the indefinite | future: until it breaks, becomes unusable, or a worthy | replacement arises (a phone the size of the Nexus 5X or | preferably smaller, with my must-have features). In the event | I can't get this I will switch to a cheap feature phone since | I need something for emergency use. I'll look into the mp3 | player market to see if there's something I can use for | playing music and audio books, maybe if I'm lucky there's | something with a nice screen and an e-reader. | | I'm sure you're right and some people are more willing to | compromise than me. However, what also seems likely is that | many people are somewhere in between and will wait until | their current phone is unusable before reluctantly | downgrading to whatever the latest model is. Surely plenty of | sales are lost due to this. | Tijdreiziger wrote: | > a phone the size of the Nexus 5X or preferably smaller | | ...so, a current flagship? Samsung's Galaxy S22 is smaller | than both the Moto X4 and Nexus 5X. | | Size comparison: | https://www.phonearena.com/phones/size/Google- | Nexus-5X,Motor... | | In general, phone sizes have stayed roughly constant since | the Nexus 5X, though the displays are getting bigger as the | bezels get smaller. | bscphil wrote: | Aha, you got me. I really should have specified that | Nexus 5X was also too big. | | Moreover, the specification that _actually matters_ for | one-handed phone users is the distance between the bottom | corner of the phone (where it 's held in the hand) and | the top opposite corner of the _screen_ , not the top | corner of the phone. That's because that point is the | furthest you'd ever need to stretch your thumb to use the | phone. So actually, the displays getting bigger as the | bezels get smaller _has_ been part of the problem. | | If you look at the Nexus 5X [1] you'll see that it has an | enormous (by modern standards) top bezel. By comparison, | a phone like the S22 has basically no bezel at all and | will be much harder to use one-handed. | | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nexus_5X | Tijdreiziger wrote: | I actually used to be worried about the exact points | you're making, as I used an iPhone 4 for years (which is | tiny by today's standards). | | However, in practice 'not being able to reach the whole | screen with my thumb' hasn't turned out to be a big | problem: navigation elements at the top of the screen | tend to be less-used (as app devs also take into account | that it's a hassle to reach them). If I really need to | use them one-handed, I can always 'scoot' my hand up a | bit. (I can see how this is harder if you have smaller | hands, though.) | | A larger screen also actually turns out to be quite nice, | as more content fits on it (I'm actually writing this | comment on my phone). | MereInterest wrote: | > However, in practice 'not being able to reach the whole | screen with my thumb' hasn't turned out to be a big | problem: navigation elements at the top of the screen | tend to be less-used | | If that's true, then app devs are thoroughly incompetent | at it. Take a look at at Chrome on Android. The address | bar, tab menu, and settings bar are all at the top of the | screen. In 2021, Apple made the same change for Safari, | moving the address bar from the bottom of the screen to | the top [1]. The tab grid Chrome's push for tab grid [2] | made it even worse, because depending on the tab, you may | need to reach across the entire diagonal the reach the | tab you want. Firefox has the option of putting the | address bar at the bottom (and if so, the tabs show near | the bottom as well), but the navigation buttons for | bookmarks are near the top of the screen. | | I don't think mobile developers think about one-handed | phone use at all. Based on the designs used, with | interactions bouncing all around the screen, it doesn't | seem to be a concern at all. Perhaps they assume that | everybody holds a phone with one hand and then touches | the screen with the other hand. | | [0] https://images.idgesg.net/images/article/2022/02/05-c | hrome-a... | | [1] | https://9to5mac.com/2021/08/17/ios-15-beta-6-redesigns- | safar... | | [2] https://m-cdn.phonearena.com/images/articles/372064-9 | 40/Scre... | jjav wrote: | > > people who need phones will still buy something even if | reluctantly | | > I'll be blunt: no I won't. | | Agreed. I used my 2005 Motorola Razr until 2020 because I | have zero interest in an inconveniently large phone. When | the Palm Phone came out I got it as a perfectly-sized | replacement. | | I won't ever go to a larger phone because if it doesn't fit | my pocket, what's the point? Might as well not have one. | mdoms wrote: | People who will happily continue using 15-year-old | hardware are not a great market segment to target. | happymellon wrote: | I had the same situation with the S10e. I don't know how it | compares to the Moto X4, but with the increased sized | phones I have no interest in a new Android. | | I only got this one because I couldn't find one smaller. | | At the current rate I would have to move to iPhone just to | stay a similar size. | thih9 wrote: | > In the event I can't get this I will switch to a cheap | feature phone since I need something for emergency use. | | I tried switching to a feature phone and was surprised how | often I use a smartphone; and how many people, banks, | government organizations, restaurants, etc, assume that you | have one. | depereo wrote: | Yes. COVID contact tracing in New Zealand nearly | completely relied on QR-code sign-ins with an ios or | android app, for example. My company has an app to manage | my sick/annual leave in. Sure, there are fallbacks, but | they're inconvenient and time or energy intensive in a | way a phone isn't. | | There are vanishingly small numbers of people who will | insist on a perfect-or-nothing approach to smartphones. | This market segment is unserviceable. Sure, the size will | be right, but it won't have the right battery size, or | the battery has to be swappable on-the-go, or it didn't | have quite the right sd card option, or maybe the | software isn't 'polished' enough, or it had to have two | headphone jacks. There will be something 'not good | enough' and therefore it's passed over even though they | want a 'small' phone. | bscphil wrote: | I'm sure there are people like that, but to be clear, I'm | not one of them. There are _many_ irritations I have with | modern smartphones, but I 'm willing to put up with all | of them if necessary except 2: must be small enough, must | have headphone jack. I'll buy any LineageOS capable phone | that meets those criteria. | depereo wrote: | Right, but those are your specific requirements, the next | person will insist on dual-sim. LineageOS capability is | another piece that requires work, the headphone jack | might be too hard for a small-scale small-phone | manufacturing line as well, since someone else will | require that it's waterproof. | | There is a smartphone that meets the needs of a small- | phone purchaser, after all, if small is the requirement - | the iphone mini. But purchasing that would require some | compromise on your hardline requirements, which will be | different to someone else's hardline requirements such as | a swappable battery. | CountSessine wrote: | Among smartphone customers, what do you think the numbers | are for customers who prefer a big phone vs a little phone? | | 99/1? | | 90/10? | | 80/20? | | I don't know this myself. But I figure that if no one is | stepping into this market, it's probably pretty damn small. | bscphil wrote: | I'm not sure why you're asking me, but the OP's site says | that 5% of iPhone orders (10 million phones a year) are | the mini. That's quite a large market in absolute terms. | hedora wrote: | I'd prefer the mini, but want a better camera. | | If the camera were the same, I suspect many, many more | people would buy the mini. | lowercased wrote: | See post above re: manufacturers. | | I think this is at least partially a feedback loop issue. | There aren't manufacturers even making small screens, and | the time/cost of doing that isn't seen as worth investing | in... because... look at what's selling - larger screens! | - which are the only thing we're selling because... look | at what's selling! | | A small niche player that wants to try a different form | factor/size isn't practically able to enter the market | with anything but commodity screens. | gryfft wrote: | > until it breaks, becomes unusable | | I decided to die on a different hill-- physical keyboard. | The blackberry keytwo wasn't perfect but it was definitely | one of my favorite devices I've ever owned. | | And now AT&T will no longer support phone calls on it. | Planned obsolescence isn't so easy to run and hide from. | They will dash your usable, friendly, pleasing devices from | your hands and sneer at you for daring to want better. | bluGill wrote: | PinePhone is the only phone I know of with a keyboard. It | has lots of other issues that you might not be able to | accept, but it is an option. | 2muchcoffeeman wrote: | Smart phones are too useful and becoming too ingrained to | life for the vast majority of people to not buy a phone off | some sort. | Groxx wrote: | Yeah, due to the ever-increasing difficulty of buying | reasonably-sized phones, I've been keeping my phone longer | and longer, well past the point of lag and annoyance where | I'd prefer to buy a new one.... because there is no new one | that I want. They're too big. They're _worse for me_ than | an out-of-support old phone that limps along and may | require a third-party OS. | | All told, I've probably bought less than half as many | phones as I'd prefer. Yes, I do eventually buy one because | they effectively are required nowadays, but that's quite a | lot of money that isn't going into these company's hands. | | Meanwhile, the rest of the market also seems to be | lengthening their time between phone purchases..... and | phone manufacturers respond by releasing bigger and more | expensive phones year over year over year. I won't try to | claim it's the _majority_ of the cause, but surely there 's | _some_ connection between those two. | Spooky23 wrote: | > Big companies are drowning in market data. They know some | people really, really want small phones. But it's a long-tail | opportunity they're willfully ignoring, and people who need | phones will still buy something even if reluctantly. I've | been in the meetings, small phone advocacy goes nowhere. | | I love my iPhone 12 mini and prefer the form factor, but will | go bigger, because of battery life. | usrusr wrote: | "and people who need phones will still buy something even if | reluctantly" | | So true... And my anecdotal observation suggest another | detail that makes small unattractive to brands: the way my | social circles happen to be, I crossed path with plenty of | owners of various incarnations of the Xperia Compact | (r.i.p.). If my observations where representative, the | Compacts would come close to outnumbering iPhones. They all | wanted a small phone, somewhat waterproof and with a | reasonably good camera. Almost all of them identifying | strongly with some outdoor hobby like cycling or rock | climbing, but wouldn't want a dedicated "outdoor" or "sports" | phone. So far so good, looks like a pattern. But they have | another thing in common: none of them would ever consider | buying a high end phone (the Compacts were, or reasonably | close) at or near release price. | oceanplexian wrote: | > Big companies are drowning in market data. They know some | people really, really want small phones. But it's a long-tail | opportunity they're willfully ignoring | | I would argue that they don't know what people want at all, | since market data just reinforces previously held | assumptions. For example if you surveyed people in 2006 what | kind of phone they wanted, most consumers would probably ask | for a better flip phone. It wasn't until Apple came along and | defined a new market that Smartphones even became a thing in | the mainstream consciousness. | stingrae wrote: | Unfortunately it has been tested. Rumors say that there | won't be an iPhone 14 mini. (Sent from an iPhone 12 mini). | toqy wrote: | Smaller screened smartphones aren't a new market that needs | to be defined though. Most people know what they are by | virtue of having lived through the era that they were the | only choice. | | And as OP pointed out, Apple makes a smaller screened | smartphone, so they exist. In some comment on this post | someone said that it accounts for 3% of Apple's phone | sales. | | How big is the group of people that want a smaller smart | phone but aren't willing or able to switch to Apple? Who | knows. My intuition says not many, but maybe we'll find out | through OP's efforts. I'm an iPhone user and the only | reason I haven't switched to something like the iPhone Mini | is because I want the better camera on the pro's. | GekkePrutser wrote: | Apple's limited success is not only a factor of the | screen size but also market positioning. The mini is | inferior in some specs to other iPhones but at the same | time really high end as far as mobiles in general go. | That makes it a niche product even if screen size was not | a factor at all. | | It targets people that have plenty of cash for a flagship | but are willing to forego the top tier specs for a | smaller size. Apple prefers you just buy the pro. And if | you don't have much cash you can get the reheated 2017 | iphone 8 with SE slapped on it :) | | I bet if they made a mini T the price of an SE with a | more limited camera and screen spec than the current mini | it would take 50% of SE sales away. | | You can't judge the market viability of one aspect based | on a single model. | nicoburns wrote: | > The mini is inferior in some specs to other iPhones but | at the same time really high end as far as mobiles in | general go. That makes it a niche product even if screen | size was not a factor at all. | | I feel like it being smaller is a factor in it having | inferior specs: much easier to fit a better camera etc | into a larger body. | hedgehog wrote: | Even the small phone user base is probably fragmented | between people who want a lower cost phone and people | like me that want the Pro or better, just smaller. | 8ytecoder wrote: | Apple already has the SE for the low cost market. They | have positioned the mini as the mid-range. What they're | missing is a high-end small phone. I'd happily pay for | it. | derefr wrote: | The current SE isn't a small phone; it's a _previous-era- | of-design_ phone. It 's a phone from before phones gave | you as much screen as would fit on the front face of the | body. If you want that, you can just buy any new-old- | stock phone from 5 years ago; they're all cheap, they're | all that size, and they're all (IMHO) painful to read or | watch anything on. | | A low-cost small phone would be the opposite of the SE: | not good-specs, bad-screen; but rather all-screen, bad- | specs. An iPhone Mini minus-minus. | 2muchcoffeeman wrote: | iPhone 13 mini. | | Having said that, the specs of the SE are nothing to | sneeze at. | hedgehog wrote: | It doesn't have the full camera. | | Edit: I'm not sure what the disagreement is but it's | objectively verifiable that the 13 Mini does not have the | same camera setup as the 13 Pro. | [deleted] | alwillis wrote: | _The mini is inferior in some specs to other iPhones_ | | I'm typing this on my iPhone 13 mini; saying it's | inferior to the rest of the iPhone 13 is an | overstatement. | | All of the core features are the same as they rest of the | line. | | Ironically it's the largest iPhone I've owned, having | upgraded from an iPhone 7 and a 6s before that. | | There probably won't be iPhone 14 mini, so I'm glad I was | able to get this form factor before I had no choice. | reflexco wrote: | They really had the room to put a x2 zoom camera on there | though... what a shame they didn't. | thefourthchime wrote: | The biggest issue for me is the battery. The first mini | had horrible battery life, I know the 13 is better. The | fact is I'm spoiled rotten with the Pro battery life and | don't see the size winning me over. | Wowfunhappy wrote: | Wait, is the iPhone Mini larger than an iPhone 6/7/8?! I | thought it was smaller. | kurthr wrote: | iPhone mini is almost exactly the same size in the hand | (2.5" width) as the iPhone4/5 and smaller than 6/7/8/SE | (2.7" width) , but the screen coverage/diag is | significantly larger than the SE (85%/5.4" vs 60%/4.7"). | | I think he meant diag screen size? The 11/12/13 are 6.1" | while maxs are 6.7" | [deleted] | GekkePrutser wrote: | I mean compared to the pro. | | I would consider both flagship models, considering the | pricing. For me mid-range is < 500EUR (and normally way | below that) so the iPhone SE doesn't even qualify here in | Europe (it's 529EUR). | | My current mid-range phone is a Samsung A52s which costs | 329EUR. | | But perhaps my long Android history has skewed my pricing | concepts somewhat. | Nition wrote: | > How big is the group of people that want a smaller | smart phone but aren't willing or able to switch to | Apple? | | It just feels like surely capturing 100% of the market | for premium small Android phones (there really are _none_ | right now) must be at least as good as yet another large | Android phone entering a market full of large Android | phones. | kingcharles wrote: | None of the leaked specs (if real) for iPhone 14 include | a "Mini" variant, so it looks like Apple killed theirs. | | I'm going to buy a 13 Mini because of Apple's long term | support, so it should last me a good few years. | lotsofpulp wrote: | I do not care if they do not make a new mini every year. | I just want a mini available for purchase, and the 13 | mini should be very capable for at least a few more | years. | heavyset_go wrote: | Slate phones were already a trend before the iPhone. | madeofpalk wrote: | "They" say that people just don't by the smaller iPhone. | People always go for the larger + cheaper thing. | | Apple has weird economics where I'm sure they profit | handsomely from iPhone Mini, but they tend to get rid of | things if they don't make $10b annually. | scarface74 wrote: | Apple has market data - they sold a premium small phone for | two years. Rumors are that they will be discontinuing them | this year. | krzyk wrote: | It was almost premium. Still didn't had Pros camera. | | Real example was Pixel until version 4. The only | difference between smaller and bigger versions was the | obvious screen and battery. | peregren wrote: | That's splitting hairs. Premium [?] Best in all | components. And the iPhone 12 and 13 have sold pretty | well by all reports so the screen size is the only | differentiator feature wise. (And battery which is | unavoidable) | scarface74 wrote: | And Google also stopped selling smaller phones... | jdironman wrote: | "If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have | said faster horses." - Henry Ford. | | However, in this day and time when it comes to established | tech such as a smart phone, sometimes the best way to | 'innovate' might be to give people what they actually want. | Sure not all companies can cater all niches. But hopefully | someone will! Im also a small phone advocate. | kristianc wrote: | "If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have | said faster horses." - Henry Ford. | | Just a note that this quote, and a similar one by Steve | Jobs ('Market research could never have given us the | Macintosh') are amongst the most misinterpreted in | history. Most people see them as saying 'market research | is useless' - what both were actually saying is that you | need to take a new innovation to the customer and _then_ | ask them what they think of it. | | So no, don't just flat out ask people what they want - | but intuit and give people a little taste of what they | could have - and then ask them what they think. | dismantlethesun wrote: | Also horses that could run at 100mph for 5 hours at a | time would be far better than early cars. They run on | clean renewable fuel, have built in natural intelligence | to avoid crashes and carry drunk drivers, and come in a | variety of pleasing colors (not just black!). | | The main benefit of cars was that if you delay | maintenance your transportation doesn't die. | SoftTalker wrote: | The emissions weren't so pleasant, however! | 6510 wrote: | But you do get self replication. Try wrapping your head | around that feature. | MichaelZuo wrote: | By the time any consumer product offers self replication | as a feature, would anyone even remember what smartphones | were? | frosted-flakes wrote: | Do you mean 10 mph? | simondotau wrote: | There's still a market for faster horses. | boznz wrote: | >For example if you surveyed people in 2006 what kind of | phone they wanted, most consumers would probably ask for a | better flip phone. | | Better flip phone would be good too. | pbhjpbhj wrote: | Samsung make one called the Z-flip. Way too expensive for | me, but to me it's the better flip phone I've been | waiting for since 2005! | drited wrote: | I have the Z-Flip 3 and love it. It meets the 2 criteria | of the post's 4 that matter to me: | | 1.fits nicely in pocket. I can sit down comfortably with | it in a pair of jeans. No dodgy posture. | | 2. Won't fall out of my pocket | | Its screen is also much less likely to break like has | happened with all my old phones when they accidentally | fall out of jacket pocket | mgkimsal wrote: | > and the component suppliers have also been looking at the | trendlines so they are building bigger and bigger | | but... aren't they influencing the trendlines by doing this? | if the only things manufacturers make are bigger and bigger, | they then get to use the sale of those bigger items as | justification to continue to make bigger items? | | Also seems a bit weird with more eco-awareness going on that | some manufacturers wouldn't explore/embrace 'smaller' in some | sense. At scale, it would mean less materials, less shipping, | less warehouse space, etc. Apple made a huge stink about | getting rid of a wall plug in their packaging, and... over | hundreds of millions of units, that little bit doesn't hurt. | | Wouldn't more 5" screens (vs 6"+) require less power, less | weight/shipping, and less input materials? | achow wrote: | iPhone mini is 3% of sale. That's the trend. | kringo wrote: | When did you see they promote mini? It's always the PRO | since high margin is only there. | MichaelZuo wrote: | What about against the regular iphone 13? I think sales | for that are something like 5x to 10x higher. | unethical_ban wrote: | Good point, with caveats: What is the comparison of | 13-non pro vs. 13 mini? When I almost bought an iPhone | recently, the thing that made me hesitate to consider for | so long was that the mini is not pro - I want 90/120 hz, | and they made a substandard flagship and blame poor sales | on size. However, if the non-pro-fat 13 has great sales, | you have a point. | | Second, it's only iphone. I hesitated for so long to | consider it at all because it requires switching | environments. | davee5 wrote: | Yes, it is absolutely in a feedback loop. It's kind of | bizarre to see up close. | | The consumer hardware duopoly of Apple and Samsung are the | only ones who seem to actually drive manufacturing trends. | There are also tons of devices being made for the Chinese | market, but you can't buy those because they're usually | locked up in supplier agreements and honestly they don't | meet "flagship" specs for display quality. | | Component suppliers, true we-make-parts manufacturers, are | not really trying to influence the big picture so much as | make sure they are running their manufacturing lines at | capacity. And if they are building panels on spec for open | market sales, they are going to build >6" displays because | it's a higher probability they'll actually sell at volume. | pixl97 wrote: | "Yes, it is absolutely in a feedback loop. It's kind of | bizarre to see up close." | | So supply chains behave like ecosystems. | | In the natural world we see insects and animals develop | things like bright plumage and big horns because the | animal before them was successful in doing the same | thing. This behavior can go on for a long time too. Then | an asteroid hits (tantamount to bad economic times) and | the fast moving generalists seem to succeed better than | the highly adapted specialist. | cehrlich wrote: | I wonder if there isn't a third factor: | | 3. Android OEMs can't make a good small phone, even if there | was the demand to produce it at scale | | Because of how efficient Apple's SoCs are compared to | Snapdragons, Android phones typically have much larger | batteries than iPhones while getting about the same battery | life. Big battery requires a big phone. The occasional | somewhat small Android phone (for example Galaxy S10e) tends | to have awful battery life. | vbezhenar wrote: | You can make thick phone. Thick phones are much more | pleasant to hold. | Ajedi32 wrote: | That's another thing I want from a phone that no OEM | seems to want to make. Make the phone thicker, get rid of | the camera bump, and fill the extra space with a bigger | battery! | msh wrote: | The ulephone power armor series sounds just like the | phone for you. | nicpottier wrote: | Pixel 5 has great battery life. Note that none of the | requirements are that it is some game machine or anything. | Even less than top-tier chipsets are just fine for me. I | just want a good camera in a pocketable form factor. | skavi wrote: | The Pixel 5 is closer in size to an iPhone 13 than a 13 | Mini. IIRC it's nearly the exact same size as an iPhone | 11 Pro. | Closi wrote: | I think OP means that Android Phones with comparable | battery life to an iOS device tend to have a larger | battery to support that (when compared to the iPhone), | which is more difficult with smaller enclosures (i.e. in | a large phone it's easier to hide a large battery, and | they don't scale entirely proportionally to screen size). | | i.e. the Pixel 5 will last about 10% longer than an | iPhone 12 on a single charge, but it achieves this with a | battery that is about 45% bigger (2,800 mAh vs 4,080mAh). | Both have the same size screen (in fact, the iPhone is | slightly larger). | nmstoker wrote: | The camera is often the reason i end up with a phone | that's way bigger than I'd otherwise like. The Pixel 6XL | has the better camera but otherwise I'd have been all | over the 6 (or smaller if it had they done anything in | that space). My Pixel 4 still feels way better sized when | i go back to it periodically. | mayama wrote: | There are small phones with decent battery performance in | Android too. Zenfone 8 from last year is an example. But | new small phones is a dying breed going forward with big | players not interested in making them at all anymore. Only | less known brands dab in making them or some budget phones. | boznz wrote: | Remove all the crapware and you are generally back to a | good battery life | aidenn0 wrote: | My Unihertz Jelly2 is much smaller than TFA is asking for | (and has a shitty camera plus midrange CPU making it | disqualified), but battery life is Just Fine. Making the | phone significantly larger should easily allow for a large | enough battery for a flagship processor. | balaji1 wrote: | Not intending to start a storm here. | | Why does the author want an Android? The iPhone mini would | do the job right? I have a iPhone mini for the same reasons | of size, premium feel and price. | | It would be cool to hear what the founder of Pebble has to | say about "why Android". Has he said it anywhere else? | [deleted] | cowtools wrote: | From the website: | | >[...] personally, after 6 months of iOS I am itching to | get back to Android. Why? The notification system SUCKS | on iOS compared to Android. It's impossible to move files | between apps. Hard to get any work done on it. Beautiful | hardware though! | balaji1 wrote: | oh yes I remember reading this now. | | Co-incidentally I was just glad today morning that iPhone | doesn't show the row of small notification icons on the | top-bar all the time. And then noticed that notifications | don't show on the home screen also. I pulled down the | notification list and saw a ton of notifications - I said | no thanks and left them all unopened. | | I did switch from Android to iPhone recently. I think | notifications on iPhone are way better, I get distracted | way lesser. Tho I don't get many important or time- | sensitive notifications. Just a bunch of transactional | notifications. | striking wrote: | Article: | | > # Why don't you just use an iPhone Mini? | | > I actually do now! I switched from Android back to | iPhone in late 2021 because the Pixel 6 was too | ridiculously large. This was my first iPhone since the OG | iPhone. | | > But only 5% of all iPhones sold are Minis (roughly 10m | phones per year). This means that Apple may decide to | kill the Mini. For Apple, 10m phones is peanuts. But for | an independent company 10m units per year would be | spectacular. | | > If Apple kills the Mini, those people will need a new | home. An Android phone (with Beeper for iMessage) might | be an adequate alternative. | | [... snip ...] | mcv wrote: | There used to be plenty of small Android phones. They could | make them again. Battery life or processor power might be a | bit less, but they used to work fine. There's no good | reason why they can't again. | [deleted] | JMiao wrote: | _Also I 'm a little surprised you're hoping an online | petition will work after your prior experience trying to | influence your acquirers. I presume you saw the inside of | Fitbit / Google and how decisions are made..._ | | probably because eric has a history of pd from a customer | frustration pov whereas your well articulated explanation | mainly represents manufacturers' pov. | | btw, such kind of math-checks-out logic is what keeps someone | from developing the iphone in 2004. everything about mobile | then made sense...to carriers and manufacturers. | fbn79 wrote: | I think Sony Xperia 5 is a premium phone in you spec target | range | mikelward wrote: | I would buy your phone, but I don't really like the iPhone mini | industrial design. The square edges make it a bit hard to hold. | I also don't mind if it's a bit larger than iPhone mini. Pixel | 3/iPhone 13 size is my limit. | | If nobody makes something like this, I'll likely switch to | iPhone 14 when it's released. | roelschroeven wrote: | A problem is that even within the niche of small phones, not | everybody has the same wishes. | | Compared to your ideal specifications, my wishes are: support | for microSD card storage; battery that easily and reliably | lasts a full day with moderate phone usage; fingerprint sensor, | not necessarily on the power button; camera decent, not | necessarily great (I don't care that much about low light | performance, for example). | | I'm tempted to sign up even with the specifications as you list | them though. Missing microSD card support could be the major | dealbreaker. Or alternatively some other user-friendly reliable | method of getting lots of files from my PC to the phone's | storage, but so far I haven't found any. Early Android versions | supporter USB mass storage and that worked pretty well, but the | transfer method implemented on newer versions is very slow and | never works reliably for me. | opan wrote: | >Or alternatively some other user-friendly reliable method of | getting lots of files from my PC to the phone's storage, but | so far I haven't found any. | | SyncThing, sftp from a termux shell, or primitive ftpd. | jpindar wrote: | I use Total Commander to transfer files. It has plugins for | many different kinds of transfer, but I mainly use SMB for | computers on my lan and sometimes sftp for others. | scarface74 wrote: | You want a small phone. But you want one with better battery | life _and_ you want an Android? | | Between the inefficiency of non Apple ARM chipsets and the | inefficiency of Android, that's not likely to happen. | foresto wrote: | > that's not likely to happen. | | Why not? It has happened before. | | My Xperia XZ1 Compact: | | - runs Android | | - measures about 14cm diagonally and 8-9mm thick | | - uses around 10-15% charge per day of light use (without | Google services) | | - has a standard headphone jack | | - has stereo speakers | | - has decent front and back cameras, with no bump | | - has a microSD slot | | - has a USB type C port | | - has a fingerprint sensor (though I disabled mine) | | - is water-tight and dust-tight (IP68) | | My previous phone was similar, and a bit slimmer. The one | before that didn't get such good battery life, but its | physical keyboard and even smaller size made up for having | to charge more often. | | Obviously, these devices are not common, but they are made | from time to time. I'm looking at hardware right now that | proves there is no technical barrier. I don't see any | reason to dissuade people from asking for a new model. | scarface74 wrote: | It's also a phone that was first announced in 2016, by a | company that has lost money for the past 5 years and is | basically retreating from the global market. | | https://www.androidheadlines.com/2019/05/sony-mobile- | strateg... | | Not exactly a ringing endorsement of its mobile phone | strategy. | | And it last a long time not using any services that make | Android what it is to most users (ie using Google | service) is not a mass market selling point. | foresto wrote: | You seem to be arguing in bad faith. | | Being a few years old does not make my example less | valid. (Arguably the opposite, given that it still works | well today.) The point is that it meets GP's needs. | | Sony's poor marketing strategy was not caused by one | phone model, nor is it a requirement for small phones in | general. | | You could easily adjust the numbers I quoted to estimate | battery life with Google services running. Assume half, | or a third, if you like. It would still meet GP's needs. | foresto wrote: | > user-friendly reliable method of getting lots of files from | my PC to the phone's storage | | Have you tried KDE Connect? (Hint: It's not only for KDE | desktop users.) | | https://kdeconnect.kde.org/ | JumpCrisscross wrote: | > _Missing microSD card support could be the major | dealbreaker_ | | And for the other guy a 3.5mm jack and for a third a physical | off switch and look at that we have too many dealbreaker | features for the form factor. | | Power users tend to have more dealbreakers than the average | consumer. Anecdotally, it seems power users prefer smaller | phones. This might be what kills the small phone factor. | samatman wrote: | I believe the bit about power users is the HN effect at | work, the main customers for small phones are people with | small hands and/or pockets, who are disproportionally | women. | | Women are also overrepresented in the Really Big Phone | market, and wield them two-handed. | | They also trend heavily iPhone in the US market, but that | leaves plenty of alpha for the manufacturer who serves the | actual market for small-form-factor Android phones. | rich_sasha wrote: | As a non-power-user, I mostly keep my phone in the | pocket, where I'd like it to be small. | | I'd almost go for a dumb phone, almost... but then I need | emails, maps and WhatsApp. | | I don't need 50 filters, 3 cameras, razor-thin (yet | somehow enormous) body, more Storage than my laptop, etc | etc... | daemin wrote: | Yeah, I really wanted to ditch owning a phone at all when | my last one broke but I realised that too many services | require having some sort of authenticator or phone for | two factor authentication. Banks literally require having | a mobile phone as they will require you to authenticate | transactions through their app. So I'm still chained to | the damn thing. | jjav wrote: | > As a non-power-user, I mostly keep my phone in the | pocket, where I'd like it to be small. | | > I'd almost go for a dumb phone | | But nobody makes a small dumb phone either! I'd be ok | with a dumb phone, if it is small. | scarface74 wrote: | Android manufacturers besides Samsung already don't make | any money. The last thing they are going to do is go | after an even smaller niche. | stormbrew wrote: | I agree with this. Power users are a tiny market compared | to "people who can't reasonably fit a modern phone in | their pocket." | | But if you have to keep your phone in a purse anyways, | why not just get a big one? | | So mostly the people in that market who still care are | the ones who can't or don't want to carry a purse, which | is also a smaller market. (I'm in this market though, so | i am sad) | rst wrote: | Not everyone wants a phone that they _have_ to operate | two-handed -- particularly those with small hands to | begin with. | stormbrew wrote: | Again, i think the phenomenon here is similar: if you | can't even get a phone you can operate one handed | properly, you may as well get a bigger screen anyways. | | I'm not saying that this is people's preferred choice, | I'm saying it's a logical decision given the choices | available that seems counterintuitive from first | principles (and assuming a market with real choices). | cannam wrote: | And it's been a long time since _any_ available phone | could be operated one handed by most users. An iPhone | Mini isn 't really one-handable either. | | I am the small-phone-lover this article is addressing, | and I did sign up to their list - I have an Xperia XZ1 | Compact and no plans to upgrade because there's nothing | to upgrade it to - but my biggest complaint about the | Compact is that it's too big already. I'm a not-quite- | six-foot man and I can't reach to buttons in the corners | one handed. So why bother? It seems that my preference is | not entirely rational after all. | MichaelZuo wrote: | This. I would be willing to bet 99.9% of the human | population do not have fingers long enough to operate the | iphone 13 mini completely onehanded, i.e. reach all 4 | corners of the screen without letting the phone slip. | | The actual market for a truly one handle-able phone is | enormous. It's just not possible to fit modern phone | functions into a package that small though. | | Who will pay flagship prices for a phone with 3 hours of | battery life? | eropple wrote: | The evidence suggests that most folks do, though. | | I don't, to be clear--I'm on your side here. My iPhone 11 | is way too big, I just needed a new phone during that | spot where the SE was long in the tooth. But people | genuinely seem to _like_ dinner plates as phones. | pessimizer wrote: | No, just do all three of those things. Add a couple | millimeters to the thickness. | debaserab2 wrote: | I definitely want a smaller phone but I don't know that I'd | call myself a power user given that I use my phone less now | than I have in the past 5 years - but it has been a total | replacement for things like photography. | kuschku wrote: | The Moto G (2013) had a microSD slot, a 3.5" port and all | of it in a 4.5" form factor. | | Why can't we just get an updated version of that? | stevekemp wrote: | I started with one of those, and every two-three years I | upgrade to the most recently available one. | | Over time the MotoG phones have been getting larger - to | the extent that now the one I have doesn't fit in my | sporran, if I go out wearing a kilt. | tom_ wrote: | It didn't have an SD card slot of any kind! | gusgus01 wrote: | Wikipedia says it did, at least on the LTE model. | | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moto_G_(1st_generation) | | Edit: ah found another source as well about it being on | the LTE model https://www.phonearena.com/phones/Motorola- | Moto-G-LTE_id8655 | frostwarrior wrote: | I disagree. I bet many average consumers would want a small | phone for work, travel, etc. | | IMHO vendors try not to sell small flagship phones so you | have to buy a foldable phone, which is way more expensive. | masklinn wrote: | > I bet many average consumers would want a small phone | for work, travel, etc. | | They neither say they do nor buy those which are | available. | | Maybe they'd like a smaller phone for a limited set of | situations (though there's no evidence of that) but | they're not going to buy two phones, so that's not | relevant. | | It's like asking a single-issue voter their preference on | other subjects. | onli wrote: | You shouldn't be downvoted. It's exactly the problem. My main | factors are: Replaceable battery, headphone jack, LineageOS | (or other custom rom) support. If those are matched the | smaller the better - I loved my HP Veer, which I admit did | not meet these requirements - but without them size is not | the main factor. | | Those additional requirements further splinter the market. | | But what's the point in buying a small phone if it does not | meet these standards, which are all about longevity? Then it | will just be unusable in ~2 years. Which would make it no | better than the otherwise perfect small phone I already have | at home, the Veer. | nabakin wrote: | > Early Android versions supporter USB mass storage and that | worked pretty well, but the transfer method implemented on | newer versions is very slow and never works reliably for me. | | Have you tried both connecting your phone to your computer | via USB and connecting your phone to a USB stick? | roelschroeven wrote: | Connecting my phone to a USB stick is not something I have | tried yet. I wasn't even aware that that's supposed to | work.Thanks, I'll give that a try. | 29083011397778 wrote: | > Early Android versions supporter USB mass storage and that | worked pretty well, but the transfer method implemented on | newer versions is very slow and never works reliably for me. | | Sounds like you haven't been using ADB. Normally, like you've | seen, getting files on or off a modern Android handset is a | terrible experience. Considering I only do bulk transfers | from my own PC, I just apt install adb, then adb push $files | $destination. _Highly_ recommend - it 's one of the few ways | Android is still dramatically better for techy users. | akrymski wrote: | I've never owned a better phone than the Xiaomi Mi 11 Lite 5G | because it's substantially thinner and lighter than any other | phone of that size. A smaller screen size may be nice but I've | realised how much more I really care about the phone being thin | and light. I don't even notice it in my back pocket. I'm now | allergic to picking up the new heavy iPhones. | | If the smaller screen wouldn't make the phone even thinner I | probably wouldn't care enough to switch. | starwind wrote: | I use an S10e. Love it. It's not small-small but def small by | todays standards. Probably switching to an iPhone here soon | jgtrosh wrote: | I also got an s10e because iirc it was the only smallish | Android phone with ok specs and ok IP rating (also I avoided | Chinese brands--though Samsung isn't necessarily everyone's | choice either). Very comfortable format! | binkHN wrote: | Hear hear! I hope your gadget guy dreams come to fruition again | and you sell 10 million! I only am chiming in to say a premium | phone should be water resistant! | m1sta_ wrote: | Sony dude. The screen ratio makes it feel small in the hand. | Vladimof wrote: | My Pixel 3 is just a bit bigger then the iPhone 13 Mini... | works great with Lineage OS... might have to change the battery | in a year though (not looking forward to it). | radec wrote: | I just replaced the battery on my pixel 3. I also replaced | the USB C port, because it was cheap and the phone was open. | It's pretty simple to do, just tedious. I would recommend | buying a replacement back as well so you don't have to worry | about keeping the glass intact. | | I would love a smaller phone then the pixel 3 but I'll stick | with this for now, it's my absolute max size. | GekkePrutser wrote: | Why only aim for 4 hours of screen on time? I understand the | battery will be smaller too but so is the screen. I'd hope to | see a bit more. Also, remember that most people won't care | about thickness so much especially if it's rugged enough to not | need a case. | | But anyway good luck with the project! I backed the first | Pebble and I'll probably use Beeper once it's fully available. | You have a history of delivering on your promises. I just want | to wait a bit to see how this one turns out in detail. | grishka wrote: | Yes, I'm as frustrated as you are. I want a no-compromise 4" | Android phone, comfortably usable with one hand. For me, the | phone is a communication device for the outside, that's it. I | hardly use it at home except for calls. My primary device is my | laptop. I have exactly zero use cases that would benefit from a | large screen, yet all of my use cases would benefit from being | able to fully use it one-handed. I don't watch any kind of | video on my phone because it's a torture either way, and I'm | okay with smaller fonts to make more things fit on a smaller | screen. | | It's gotten so bad I contemplated porting Android to the iPhone | SE. Not the complete OS, just the userspace, enough to run | SystemUI and apps. | | Except: a headphone jack is a hard requirement. If a phone has | no headphone jack, it could as well not exist for me. | dont__panic wrote: | Very much the same situation for me. I'm especially | interested in why Eric doesn't mention the headphone jack -- | does he simply think it isn't a noteworthy feature, and | assume the phone WILL have the jack? Or does he assume that | bluetooth is the future and only silly luddites like us care | about the jack? | | I hope Eric eases up on the weirdly specific requirements, | like dual rear cameras, symmetrical bezels, and a punchout | front camera, and refocuses on features that make or break | the phone to end users. | seydor wrote: | I have a hunch a lot of people are not upgrading because there | are no new phones under 6 inch now. | [deleted] | s17n wrote: | I just gave up and bought an iphone, good luck all | rationalfaith wrote: | sabujp wrote: | > Extrapolating from past models, the Pixel 10 will be roughly | the size of California | | Thanks for that | alkonaut wrote: | "Sub 6 inches" | | Isn't 6" about the size of an iPhonex/XR/11 which is a huge slab | of a phone? | qwertfisch wrote: | Yes, very strange. GSMarena lists it as 6.1 inch, and its | length of 150mm (5.9") might be acceptable, but the width (76mm | / 3") is large. | | Comparing with my Samsung A40 (5.9" diagonally), the latter is | much smaller, and also lighter: | https://www.gsmarena.com/compare.php3?idPhone1=9320&idPhone2... | | Edit: Both smartphones have the same display aspect ratio, but | the XR seems to have thicker edges. The screen-to-body-ratio is | only 79%, compared to 85.5% on the A40. So it must be wider and | higher. | [deleted] | lazaruzLong wrote: | I have old eyes - I want need and have a Giant sized phone. | | My wife just purchased an new iPhone SE2. I truly cannot use the | phone the screen is too little for me. | otikik wrote: | When Android went big, I went iPhone. | onedr0p wrote: | What happens when iPhone goes big? It's only a matter of time | due to sales. | otikik wrote: | I'll still pick the least shitty smallest one that I can get. | camillomiller wrote: | Asus Zenfone 8. | mxuribe wrote: | My favorite statements from this post... | | > ...An Android phone (with Beeper for iMessage) might be an | adequate alternative... | | ...and... | | > ...Extrapolating from past models, the Pixel 10 will be roughly | the size of California | haunter wrote: | Zenfone 8 https://www.asus.com/Mobile/Phones/ZenFone/Zenfone-8/ | | LineageOS supported https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/sake/ | AiAi wrote: | There's an issue with ZenFone 8 often referred to as "ram dump" | which Asus hasn't addressed, and caused many phones to brick | suddenly: | https://zentalk.asus.com/en/discussion/comment/208476/ | bdorn wrote: | Pixel 5 is good, I got a 6 and returned it because it was | massive. Hoping they return to this this form factor & add the | rear fingerprint sensor back. | akmarinov wrote: | The article person might want one, but people don't. That's why | the iPhone Mini doesn't sell and is being axed. | lkxijlewlf wrote: | It will return in a couple years as the new SE. | MrRiddle wrote: | 5% sold were Mini. But I guess let's axe it if it cuts into | profit just a bit. | eddieroger wrote: | It is a business, though, and if 5% of sales cost | disproportionately more than 5% to produce, market, support, | and all those things, then it's fair to say "it doesn't sell" | and axe it. | pmlnr wrote: | And together with the SE devices? | masklinn wrote: | Sadly yes, if the Mini means additional costs and only | captures users which'd have bought your phone anyway it's | just overhead. | | Sad to say but ruthless supply chain and product range | efficiency is one of the pillars of Apple's return. | zuhsetaqi wrote: | I wouldn't call 10 m a year ,,doesn't sell". It might not sell | like the bigger ones but there's definitely a market for it | moffkalast wrote: | Clearly not enough to warrant a production line, otherwise | there would be some offerings for it from some Android maker. | narag wrote: | Clearly? Are you sure? | | Paraphrasing _Contact_ : First rule in cell phone building: | why build small when you can build twice as big at twice | the price? | moffkalast wrote: | I mean it's not like this has been a sudden shift, phones | have been getting gradually larger over the years. I | seriously doubt manufacturers would be using more | materials to make a smaller amount of larger phones | instead of more smaller ones if the larger versions | didn't sell that much more. | narag wrote: | Sure, I just meant that maybe smaller phones _are_ | profitable, just less profitable than bigger ones, so | companies incentivize the latest. | | I've given up. My plan is buying a dumbphone until Pine | is usable by me. | rplnt wrote: | Or is it that marketing has been telling customers that | bigger is better for the past decade? I wouldn't give too | much credit to an average consumer. | dschuetz wrote: | Speak for yourself. | irrational wrote: | I recently saw an android phone (I can't remember the name of it) | that folded in half (how the screen doesn't crack in half after | being folded and unfolded hundreds of times is beyond me). When | it is folded in half it is quite narrow, but when unfolded it | looks to be the size of a mini tablet. After seeing that I | couldn't help but wonder why Apple didn't create a similar thing | (patents I presume). It is like the best of both worlds, both a | phone and a tablet all in one. | posterboy wrote: | I too looked for a small phone and left disappointed. I think | there are two or three notable factors. | | 1. Bigger chassis allows a bigger battery, longer up-time. This | is probably the biggest issue. | | 2. Having gotten used to a 6+" for a while, the small ones appear | almost too small. Books are on average bigger than that for a | good reason. | | 3. Very naively speaking, bigger looks better and thus more | expensive. Users are therefore more willing to spend more money, | whereas a smaller phone will look disproportionately expensive | and, as per the first point, now less powerful. | | Sony was the last one other than apple to try that, as far as I | can tell. | | However, cheaper smartphones still exist in that space, they just | don't come with newer hardware. | brokenkebab2 wrote: | I have a question: how do you cope with on-screen keyboard, when | screen is small? I'd like to have a phone which doesn't take too | much space in a pocket, but I found that below 5.5" I have too | much struggle typing. Should we ask for a physical kbd (say N900 | style) if we want a new phone anyway? | Marsymars wrote: | I have a somewhat larger phone, but I just don't type much on | my phone. I only really use it for communication of logistics | with people if I'm not home, or typing in addresses to navigate | to, etc. Otherwise I wait until I have access to a real | keyboard. | | Due to my aversion of taking my electronics over international | borders, I went on vacation a few years ago with a flip phone | (LTE still), and found that T9 was too inconvenient for even | basic logistics, so got a secondary Android phone after that. | CarVac wrote: | I use MessagEase, which is just fantastic for quick and | accurate typing. | persedes wrote: | I have a 3" inch jelly2 and typing, while often annoying for | something like urls, is overall ok. For regular texting text to | speech works pretty well and the slide to type feature is | pretty solid too. | | But to be fair I bought it to spend less time on my phone, and | the annoyances that it does have make the choice easy lol | hammock wrote: | Swipe typing. | erohead wrote: | This is the way | whs wrote: | I used 9x4 Thai keyboard layout on my 3.7" Nexus One. I | mastered it and reached 40wpm without autocorrect/suggestions. | After upgrading to 4.7" Nexus 4 I found that the screen is too | big and I'd have to use swipe keyboard. I don't think I ever | reached 40wpm again. | | Then again, that was when in high school. Maybe my fingers grew | bigger. | polishdude20 wrote: | I've been using my original pixel 2 since the day it came out. | Still works like a charm. Fast, battery is good, small and the | camera is great. I've been looking at getting an iPhone mini but | what I get for the price doesn't seem to be that much better than | what I have now. | melenaboija wrote: | I used to love small phones since I started having short | sightedness problems. | | Cheaper, lighter, easy to carry on, ... was mostly what I cared | about phones until I realized that my sight is getting worst and | how important to me is to have bigger fonts. | rendall wrote: | How about a premium greater-than EUR1000 phone of any size that | does not have unremovable cruft on it? Doesn't badger you every | week or so with self-serving notifications and advertising. Hmm, | Samsung? | soheil wrote: | Umm.. there are literally 100s of small Android phones: | | https://www.productchart.com/smartphones/small_android_phone... | high_pathetic wrote: | Aw, to be young again. Ocular myopathy is a thing, unfortunately. | moelf wrote: | Xperia 5 III | mg wrote: | I maintain this chart of small Android phones: | | https://www.productchart.com/smartphones/small_android_phone... | | You can filter by specs to see how close you can get to your | dream phone. There are quite a few available on the market that | match the 5.5" screen size of the iPhone 13 Mini. Even by the big | manufacturers like Samsung and Google. Like the Pixel 3. Which | was introduced 4 years ago though. | | In general, phones have been becoming larger and larger over the | years. So this chart has been becoming more and more sparse over | time. | | But recently, the voices demanding small phones seem to become | louder and more frequent. | | I am curious to see if it will reverse the trend. | | At some point, I will probably make a graph that shows the change | in average screensize over time. | pavon wrote: | Missing Sony Xperia XZ2 Compact - the most recent (and | apparently last) small phone that Sony made. | mg wrote: | Thanks, will add it. | aidenn0 wrote: | No Jelly2? | mg wrote: | Good point! Will add it. | minroot wrote: | There must be no notch or punch hole camera. | ChrisMarshallNY wrote: | I've got an iPhone 13 Mini. I brought it, because I suspect that | it will be the last small-format phone Apple makes. I figure it's | good for a couple of years. | | I have a _lot_ of Apple gear (I develop Apple native apps). I | tend to use the Mini phone, and the Mini iPad, the most. The rest | of the stuff sits around, until it 's testing/screenshot time. | pipeline_peak wrote: | > 4 hours Screen On Time (SOT) | | > Unlockable bootloader | | > NFC | | You could've kept things simple and attracted a larger audience | by just saying you want a smaller phone. | | This reads like an over passionate CS freshman....... | | "Dude wouldnt it b cool if it ran Arch Linux" | | I've rarely heard net positive reviews for phones from no name | Chinese brands like One Plus or whatever that thing is. | | There just needs to be a smaller modern phone, that's all. No TTL | connectors, no OCAML based user environment. | | I promise there are enough frustrated kids and adults in the | planet to sign a strictly smaller modern phone petition. | | Unfortunately the Smartphone world is pretty dominantly Apple, | Google and Samsung. | | Hopefully the petition will raise notice, but we all know | companies rarely operate this way. | twofornone wrote: | I wish they would release a modernized phone with a decent | processor and camera in the form factor of a pixel 2. | | How much compute does the average person even need from their | phone these days? Aren't most people just browsing the internet | and checking emails? | sunflowerdeath wrote: | And I want IPad Mini-sized Android tablet, but for some reason | all compact tablets have terrible performance, and because of | this you have to use a large phone to watch videos or play games. | theandrewbailey wrote: | I guess the author doesn't consider SD slots and headphone jacks | premium. | NelsonMinar wrote: | Battery size is a lot of what's driving the escalation of phones. | Phones keep getting bigger, with bigger batteries, but usable | time stays about constant. I'd love a renewed emphasis on lower | power / longer battery life without having to make the thing so | big it doesn't fit in my hand comfortably. | asddubs wrote: | my dream would be a small linux phone (probably a couple years | down the line once the software is a bit more stable), but I | would settle for a small android phone as a primary device, to | stay a bit more realistic in terms of market share. while we're | sharing pipe dreams, i would love a physical keyboard like the | n900 as well. i used my nexus 5 for 7 years or so, when i | replaced it i didn't even realize there no longer were any phones | of that size at all. | | I don't even need premium, i just want anything at all. I really | do hate my current phone, i can't even type on it properly with | one hand, it's too big. I may begrudgingly end up replacing it | with an iphone, the only reason I haven't yet is that it's locked | down and I would miss f-droid, and the linux compatibility sucks. | but of course android has its own problems (namely google trying | to squeeze as much data as possible out of you, and making it as | hard as they can to turn off the various settings related to that | buried in different setting sub-menus) | pmlnr wrote: | https://pine64.com/product/pinephone-pinephone-pro-keyboard-... | asddubs wrote: | I got one, and I love it! But it's not really a phone at that | point | nsonha wrote: | I've just got the galaxy s10e, a phone released 3 years ago, for | this reason. The new s22 is also only slightly bigger than it. | Samsung seems to now have this form factor as the baseline of | their line up, with the top one added extra things that don't | matter such as bigger, higher display frame rates and curved | edges (whoever came up with this stupid trend needs to go to | jail, but it's good that Samsung thinks that's a "feature", so it | sells normal screens at a discount) | denysvitali wrote: | Maybe in a few years you'll be able to have something like | Project Sandcastle for the iPhone Mini. | | https://projectsandcastle.org/ | encryptluks2 wrote: | I want a flagship Sidekick-style phone :( | dskloet wrote: | I would buy this if it was dual SIM (nano+eSIM) but honestly | iPhone 13 mini is still too big for my taste. No wider than | iPhone 4 would be ideal for me. Fine if it's thicker to fit a | decent battery. | | I'm currently using a Pixel 3a with multiple cracks in the | screen. Willing to drop a lot of money on a phone but there isn't | a single phone I want. | lenn_eavy wrote: | iPhone SE 2020 was a reason I switched from the Android. I have | dedicated tools for my hobbies and I am using phone for messages, | simple games, navigation and reading stuff mostly. These bases | are covered by both sides, but only one had the form factor I was | after. Now I'm considering iPad 6 Mini to be my next planner, | bullet journal, occasional article reader and note taker. Having | small form factor phones can certainly be an entry point to the | device ecosystem for some people. | d3nj4l wrote: | Man this website took me back. Something about the layout and | design reminds me of websites that sold you shit in the oughties, | like the ones some dude would set up hawking his supplement line | or whatever. | meonmyphone wrote: | This is something I've been wishing for a while - some kind of | initiative to help make a small Android device available. So I'm | happy to see this, especially when it's backed by someone with | influence in the industry. | | The author's motivations don't see that strong, though. I mean, | if Apple improved the notification system and the file | management, would this project exist? Or is it that unlikely to | happen in a few years? | | Anyway, I really hope the project works. I really do. And I'm | willing to contribute the way I can. | | I've been trying to make the switch to Android for years, but | couldn't find a decent device, despite few attempts over the | years. | TheGoodBarn wrote: | I jumped at getting the iPhone 13 mini immediately and haven't | looked back. I remember having an iPhone 5 and how much I loved | the formfactor for the same reasons OP mentions. | | Sure the battery sucks and the phone locks up from too many | things happening sometimes, but those are perfectly fine trade | offs for a phone that fits into my life and isn't my life. | | When I bought my 13 mini I also bought the new iPad mini to have | a larger device for content consumption and the combo is lovely | teaearlgraycold wrote: | That's a shame - I heard the 13 Mini had acceptable battery | life. And for someone that doesn't make their phone their life | that's especially surprising. | sph wrote: | I don't make my phone my life, and the 12 Mini has enough | battery for me. I charge it every other day, but I have to | admit it feels it holds less charge than my old iPhone 8. | | I only use it for Whatsapp, bathroom break HN and a few calls | a week. Everything else I do from my PC. Also, performance is | great for me, I'm not planning on running games or k8s on my | mobile. | | EDIT: looks like you're talking about the 13 mini, I got the | 12 mini, which IIRC has similar battery life complaints. Not | sure if it got worse with the latest iteration. | dont__panic wrote: | Word on the street (and physical evidence of the larger | battery in the 13 Mini) is a strong consensus that the 13 | mini has better battery life than the 12 mini. | | I've never heard anyone complain about the performance of | the 13 mini before, maybe there's something funky going on | with the OP's phone. | MockObject wrote: | I've had my 13 Mini since they dropped. My battery is fine, | always lasts the day with overnight charging. I'm constantly | playing podcasts, talking on Signal, and have the dynamic | weather service running. | TheGoodBarn wrote: | It's not THAT bad, it just depends on usage. Lately I have | been using my phone a lot more, and just spending an hour or | two endlessly scrolling in the morning it goes from fully | charged to maybe 50%. If it is on standby most of the day, it | will last most of the day. | | That being said, I also play golf and use a Golf GPS tracker, | Pokemon Go, and social media most of the day. Coming from an | iPhone 11 Pro which had incredible battery life, it is a | major change. BUT, the lower battery life is manageable. I | have external battery packs, I prepare for these types of | things. I can make it last when I need it to. | efficax wrote: | battery life is good on the mini for me, as for locking up, not | sure why you would see that, it's got the same chipset as the | non-mini iphone 13 | TheGoodBarn wrote: | Haha I play Pokemon Go, battery life is like 6 hours TOPs. I | charge it periodically throughout the day, just hover between | 20-80 percent. | | --- | | Locking up, I think it comes from moving from my old iPhone | 11 Pro to the non-pro variant. I felt a little spoiled with | the Pro model. | coolgoose wrote: | Happy Samsung s10e reporting :) | productceo wrote: | A prudent business will respond to what people do rather than | what people say. | bmacho wrote: | Can it be lightweight (<100g) and wide (16/10 or wider) as well? | Pretty please? | | edit: also buttons, like back, home, menu and search? edit2: like | my ~ZTE v970 [1], but capable of newer https standards. Even | teddit refuses to serve me content :D | | 1: https://www.gsmarena.com/zte_grand_x_v970-reviews-4597.php | adwf wrote: | Latest Motorola Razr foldable scratches that itch for me. I know | it doesn't fit into the mid-price category, but I finally have my | pocket space back again! | DevKoala wrote: | I want a smaller iPhone Mini. | | The small screen discourages me from wasting too much time on it | and using it only when needed. | OJFord wrote: | With small defined as sub-6" I can _almost_ recommend my Nokia | 3.4. (I measure about 3 /16" over.) I remember finding it a | surprisingly tall/narrow ratio when I first got it though, so | maybe it's suitable depending on what bothers you over 6". | mywacaday wrote: | I recently discovered the one handed feature on my Note10+ that | allows the shrinking of the screen to whatever size you want. | Don't use it but might be useful to someone. | https://www.samsung.com/africa_en/support/mobile-devices/how... | ajot wrote: | LineageOS used to have this feature, by swiping the navbar. | Unfortunately, it was based on some hackery by HTC or Huawei | and it's not feasible anymore. | mywacaday wrote: | It's the same on the note10, swipe down to activate. | bobbiechen wrote: | One interesting feature on my Samsung Galaxy S9 is "one-handed | mode", which shrinks the screen area to about the size of the | iPhone Mini screen, leaving black bars along one side and the | top. It's interesting that they're aware of the issue and have a | software solution. | | One-handed mode is decent when holding the phone parallel to the | ground supported by your hand, but still doesn't cut it for | holding the phone up since you'll need to grip the entire phone | body anyways. | Cupprum wrote: | Today i just saw this video about small phones. The only bad | thing is that the camera is pretty bad :( | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUCULGEmgTo | odiroot wrote: | I'm holding onto my XZ2C tight until some manufacturer wakes up | and starts producing compacts again. | mormegil wrote: | I was holding onto my XZ1C. Two months ago, I bought Samsung | S22: it is bigger, but acceptably so, and there seems to be no | smaller option in the foreseeable future, anyway. | quartus wrote: | I'm still using the Pixel 4, I'm happy with it. I tried the Pixel | 6 but it's just too gigantic, and the camera strip sticks out too | much, so I went back to the 4 | HomeGear wrote: | > For Apple, 10m phones is peanuts. But for an independent | company 10m units per year would be spectacular. If Apple kills | the Mini, those people will need a new home. | | Hm, I'd suspect most of the customers are more attached to the | Apple iPhone than the form. I'm one, but, I could be wrong! | cheeze wrote: | Agree. Some folks want small phones, but generally iphone users | want... an iphone. | mikestew wrote: | I have an iPhone 13 Mini. If no equivalent exists when I go to | replace it, then I'll buy iPhone Pro Giant Ass Max and shove it | the man bag. | | But I'll carry a MacBook as my phone before I'll go back to | Android, no matter how small they make 'em. | Beauseph wrote: | Here you go. https://news.samsung.com/global/samsung-announces- | galaxy-xco... | teekert wrote: | +1, I switched to iPhone 12 mini from a OnePlus3. But, I'm not | going back anymore. Let's hope when this thing gives out in 5 | years my watch can do all of this. | | I always thought iPhone would be restrictive. But I have my | selfhosted apps and my wireguard (but ffs let me tunnel my | hotspot connected clients through the vpn Apple!). | therealmarv wrote: | Pixel 6a, Xiaomi 12, Sony Xperia 10 IV. Won't get any smaller. | https://www.gsmarena.com/compare.php3?&idPhone2=11285&idPhon... | rplnt wrote: | That's 2cm on my current phone (XZ1 compact) which also has | relatively big bezel and it's right at the limit of being able | to be controlled with one hand. | morsch wrote: | S22 is a bit smaller, still, but in the same class. | markdoubleyou wrote: | You can get a little smaller. Asus Zenfone 8 has a 5.9" screen. | qwertfisch wrote: | Samsung A40 had a nice 5.9 screen with full HD+ resolution. | Sold for under 250EUR. Unfortunately Samsung only releases | such a phone once every five years. The successors were | bigger, more expensive and less powerful. | dotancohen wrote: | I'd love a small Android phone, with one caveat: A built-in | stylus. I'm stuck with the huge Samsung Note series, or the | Samsung S22 which is no smaller. | | I've used external stylii and my fingers too, but absolutely | nothing comes close to the experience of just sliding out the | stylus which is always there and using it. | JansjoFromIkea wrote: | unfortunately the best option I can see is supporting Lineage OS | development on the XZ2 Compact at the moment. Seems to be no | market for smaller phones at all (Apple are even ditching the | mini for 14 iirc, Jelly has never made it anywhere near me to | try). Beyond that, the Xperia Ace 3 is an okay size (slightly | bigger than iPhone Mini) and maybe if it does well there will be | more smaller options? | | I've a 12 mini now because I thought the original SE was losing | support last year, I def regret not sticking with the SE for | another year instead, for me the 12 mini is unreasonably big. | kgermino wrote: | "4 hour screen on time" | | That seems crazy low. I have an iPhone Mini (and would switch | back to Android when I replace it if they have a mini quality | phone and Apple doesn't) and my battery lasts "all day." I'm not | sure how it works out in terms of screen on time, but it's got to | be at least 6 hours a day. Probably more. | eertami wrote: | Battery settings probably shows your screen on time? In | independent reviews, the iPhone mini (12 & 13) seemed to get | closer to 5 hours screen on time. | | 6 hours or more _per day_ sounds absolutely insane though, you | must be overestimating that unless you use your phone as a GPS | to commute or some similar use case that requires it on in the | background. | kgermino wrote: | > 6 hours or more _per day_ sounds absolutely insane though, | you must be overestimating that unless you use your phone as | a GPS to commute or some similar use case that requires it on | in the background. | | Interesting. I do use my phone a lot: slack/email regularly | throughout the day, twitter addiction, videos in the | background while doing other stuff, and reading; but you | might be right that I'm overestimating it. (Screen Time says | about 7 hours, I have no idea what that counts though) | | Regardless, if the consensus in reviews is about 5 hours | asking for 4 isn't crazy, especially since (IIRC) iPhones | tend to do better than Android in battery life. | ngngngng wrote: | I wanted this and it didn't exist, so now I use an iPhone 13 | mini. I'll likely replace the battery on this a few times since | rumor has it the mini model won't be continued. It's too bad that | Apple is running entirely on the sales numbers of the mini itself | for that decision, as since getting an iPhone 13 mini I've bought | 3 of the newest model of macbook pro for members of my family, | started using Apple TV+ and Apple Music, and bought myself some | Airpods pro. Apple brought me into their ecosystem with this | device so from my perspective it seems like it could be | worthwhile for them to continue making it. | joshvm wrote: | I also got a 13 Mini. It's a nice phone, but it feels very | dense, especially with the magsafe case. I'm not sold on the | experience coming from Android, but it seems like it's a case | of learning workarounds. | | In hindsight, I realised that I was coming from an Android | phone a few generations back (Pixel 2) which I considered to be | a reasonable size. Pixels have gotten about 10 mm longer over | time. However now we have wall to wall screens, it's quite a | difference. The iPhone Pro is the same form factor as a Pixel | 2, for example, but is all screen. 6" seems doable for Android, | but that's a lower bound. | | I think what we all want is a Pixel 2 without the bezel. There | are lots of phones with smaller OLED displays, but none without | the bezel. | scyzoryk_xyz wrote: | I think we will see the small phone format returning down the | road under the SE brand instead. So a year or two from now a | new SE that looks like today's 13 mini. | | While the rumors themselves are usually pretty accurate, the | interpretations and conversations around them remain pretty | wild and emotional. Low sales numbers probably proved that the | mini isn't the format that needs a refresh every single year | and the 13 mini was unique because the 12 mini had a few weak | points that needed addressing. | | I think Apple has lately really had it's sh*t together when it | comes to strategy and timing lately. They knew years ahead of | time that the interest in the small format (in which you can | reach across the entire screen with your thumb) would return as | soon as everyone got used to and bored with big screens. | marliechiller wrote: | exact same user story for me! | rplnt wrote: | I've been looking at new phones since my Xperia Compact (XZ1) | started having some issues, and iPhone seems to be the only | choice. I just wish it had usb-c. By the way, did you consider | to go with 12 instead of 13? | coldpie wrote: | I'd give the iPhone 13 Mini a weak-recommend for small phone | lovers coming from Android. It is truly the only option for | small phones. (Well, small-ish. I actually find it a bit | larger than I'd like, but it's acceptable.) But, iOS is a | really significant downgrade from Android. It's usable, I've | lived with mine for months, but I'm really hoping I can | switch back to Android in the future. I've even considered | just reselling the iPhone at a loss so I can switch back | sooner, but it's hard because there are _also_ no good | Android options, so I haven 't... yet. | ngngngng wrote: | I had the 12 mini and then paid a few bucks to upgrade to the | 13 mini during a promotion at a local shop. The 13 mini | battery life is better which I really appreciate since my | phone is my GPS device when I'm in the backcountry without a | charger. | netcyrax wrote: | The Samsung Flip seems like it can solve the problems descibed in | the post. Large enough screen when you open it, small enough to | fit nicely in your pocket when closed. Of course it's a bit think | when it's closes, but we are getting there. | dougifresh94 wrote: | "This means that Apple may decide to kill the Mini." -> according | to the rumors, it already has for the 14+ | Balvarez wrote: | I'd love a smart phone that... - is android - is small - has a | headphone jack - has a great camera(on the back) - has a | removable SD card - has a removable battery Currently, my next | phone will be a Sony as it checks more boxes than any other | phone. | nfriedly wrote: | I just signed up for his mailing list and put this down for my | comments: | | I _really_ want a microSD slot. Shared with the second SIM is OK, | but please don 't exclude it entirely. And/or more internal | storage. | | I'm on a Pixel 2 and am generally satisfied with the size of that | phone, but I could live with smaller. My biggest problems are | that 1) google screwed me with a non-unlockable bootloader when I | sent it in for repair, so the software is slowly rotting and 2) I | keep running out of storage. Other than that, the phone is | basically fine. | | From the reviews I've read, the Snapdragon 8 Gen 1 likes to draw | _way_ too much power and then thermally throttle - so probably | not a great choice for a small phone (with both a smaller battery | and less surface area to dissipate heat.) But, this phone | probably won 't ship this year, so maybe they'll have something | better out by the time it does. | | I wouldn't put "Hole punch front camera" on my "desired" list, | but eh, it's not a dealbreaker for me either. I'd rather have a | little bit of top and bottom bezel with decent front-firing | speakers, and then stick the camera in the top bezel. Kind of | like the current Xperias, only shorter. | | Headphone jack would also be nice to have, but also not a | dealbreaker for me. | | Oh, and video output over USB-C would be another nice to have. I | think it comes built-in with most recent Snapdragons, but Google | seems to go out of their way to disable the feature... | notorandit wrote: | Port android to iphone hardware | djtango wrote: | I was a Sony Xperia Compact aficionado until the latest gen was | impossible to buy due to the chip shortage. | richardfey wrote: | Which model were you trying to buy? | HeavyStorm wrote: | So do I. My hands are small for current phone sizes. I need to | use both hands to type. | goldforever wrote: | rejor121 wrote: | I think the iPhone 5 was the perfect size. I still have mine | though it doesn't work anymore since I dropped it ages ago. | | Still hoping a phone even smaller than the iPhone 12 mini is | released | pluc wrote: | I want a phone that doesn't put billions of R&D into twelve | fucking cameras | patwolf wrote: | I used an Atom for a while, which had a ridiculously small 2.4" | screen. One thing I realized is that the smaller you make the | screen, the thicker you have to make the device in order to | provide space for the battery. While a smaller screen does use | less battery, it's not enough that you can avoid increasing | thickness. | | I know that's a bit more extreme than the <6" mentioned in the | article, but I think it still holds that when making a flagship | packed with good cameras, battery life, and CPU, it's much easier | to make a sexy looking large phone than a small phone. | Normille wrote: | I'd much rather have a smaller thicker phone than a larger | thinner one. The fetish for making electronic devices ever | thinner is another one that passes me by. In my book 'thinner = | more fragile" | | And, when it comes to 'pocketability' I find pockets generally | trend to expand depth-wise to accommodate thicker items. I've | yet to find a garment with pockets that expand length- or | width-wise to accommodate larger items | bobbiechen wrote: | One interesting feature on my Samsung Galaxy S9 is "one-handed | mode", which shrinks the screen area to about the size of the | iPhone Mini screen, leaving black bars along one side and the | top. It's interesting that they're aware of the issue and have a | software solution (along with similar features like the camera | shutter button that can be dragged around to a more convenient | location to tap). | | One-handed mode is decent when holding the phone parallel to the | ground supported by your hand, but still doesn't cut it for | holding the phone up since you'll need to grip the entire phone | body anyways. | blangk wrote: | I owned the iPhone 12 mini and thought it was a great phone - I | was able to one hand it quite easy and the hardware specs were | more than sufficient. My partner now uses it but she would prefer | a slightly larger screen I think. I moved to a Pixel 5 and think | it is currently one of the best smaller phones - For most stuff I | can one hand this phone too, and in some ways the ergonomics of | the Pixel are better. For instance the back side finger print | scanner unlock is the best I've ever used. I used to want to keep | my aux port, but the bluetooth audio industry has really stepped | up in recent years - I still just use my airpod pros and probably | will continue too | duxup wrote: | I moved to iOS recently, partly to get an iPhone mini. | | It's wonderful to have a small phone. | littlecranky67 wrote: | iPhone convert for the small form factor here, too. I had | Android since the Galaxy S1, but in 2018 switched to the iPhone | 8 as there was just no decent SFF android device. I considered | the Pixel 3a, and I am glad that I didn't go for it as it | dropped out of support and no longer receives security updates, | while I'm today still on my fully supported and updated iPhone | 8. Next phone will be one of the iPhone SE series. | DrBoring wrote: | I like the idea, I'll fill out your form later today. | | Feedback on the website: | | On the graphic at the bottom where you overlay different models | of phone: | | 1. I think the red/green/blue borders would benefit from more | contrast. It's hard for my eyes to distinguish. | | 2. I think you should add a deck of cards to the graphic. It | would provide a frame of reference for scale. | | ... P.S. I just noticed the "Extrapolating from past models, the | Pixel 10 will be roughly the size of California" below the | graphic. If the purpose of the graphic was purely to accompany | that joke, then I guess ignore my suggestions. | | Although, a deck of cards may contribute to the joke. Hmmm | [deleted] | cosmojg wrote: | I want an Apple Watch-sized Android phone. | jbarberu wrote: | The best Android phones I've had were Nexus 5 and Nexus 5X. I | thought the 5X were a little bit bigger than I prefer, but over | all a great device. After that I went through a bunch of | different phones, first a cheapo Motorola at 5.7" (smallest I | could find without complete garbage specs) and then a Samsung A10 | at 6". They were both impractically big, despite having quite | large hands. | | The only way I could find to have a smaller screen was to switch | over to iOS. Currently I have an iPhone SE (iPhone 8) at 4.7" | which is lovely, but I would have preferred to stay with Android | as it's the only Apple device I currently own. | guerrilla wrote: | I hate giant phones too, that's why I got a Samsumng Galaxy | Xcover 5. The 4 was even smaller but is too slow for today's | apps. | | https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_xcover_5-10718.php | [deleted] | pkulak wrote: | So do I. So I just bought an iPhone Mini after about 10 years of | using Android phones. The hardware is better, notifications took | some getting used to, but it's fine. Phones are an appliance. | | I think Android phones just don't have the power efficiency to be | small anymore. End of an era. | jpswade wrote: | Is there such a thing as a stock Android OS these days? | officeplant wrote: | Its too bad the iPhone Mini is already dead as a size. I love | small phones as well, but the market as a whole seems to shun our | kind. | pmlnr wrote: | IMO a lot of the visual appeal of smartphone apps, mainly social | media, would go away with small screen. I remember using my HTC | desire to read the web and if it wasn't text, it was not great. | | BTW the best form factor phone I had was the Nexus 4, at 4.7". I | would very much like that back, but without that slippery glass | back, repairable, held together with screws, with replaceable | battery, shipped with LineageOS or /e/. Yep, I'll keep dreaming. | nhumrich wrote: | Yes! Nexus 4 was a great phone. | CarVac wrote: | Have a headphone jack and I'm in. | amelius wrote: | I won't be using/recommending Android as long as it says: | | > This app you need wants access to all your files and photos. | | It's ridiculous that it's all or nothing and you cannot have more | control than that. | hammock wrote: | It depends on the app. Some apps (like Telegram) request it | that way. Other apps (like GroupMe) can somehow tap into your | photos reel without requesting the full superhuge blanket | permission like that. I could be wrong but as I recall that's | my experience. | amelius wrote: | > It depends on the app. | | Yes. The problem is that apps have this power. As a user, I | should be able to restrict access to certain folders, | regardless of what the app requested. | dschuetz wrote: | I want a thicker (longer battery life), mini-sized iPhone-like | _actual_ Linux phone. | reusable_batt wrote: | kringo wrote: | 100% with box design! | twism wrote: | so pixel 5? | Julesman wrote: | Because you want to modify it. Right? Tell me about all of your | planned modifications. So many changes. So custom. So freedom. | dixego wrote: | I just don't like Apple, what's the problem? | ccbccccbbcccbb wrote: | + hardware camera power switch and/or physical lens cover | yc-kraln wrote: | Which criteria does the Asus Zenphone 8 fail? | | I just bought one with more-or-less the same wishlist, and threw | Lineage on it, and it's perfect for me. | unwiredben wrote: | From what I've seen, the tiny Palm Phone (from TCL) didn't do | very well, but there's still some inventory on Amazon: | https://palm.com/pages/product. | | There's also the Cyrcle Phone (https://www.cyrclephone.com/) | which doesn't seem to be for sale anymore after its Kickstarter | and Indie Go Go campaigns. | kk6mrp wrote: | There are tons on ebay for good prices! | SahAssar wrote: | The Cyrcle Phone doesn't look small at all, just in a different | shape. Also from the video shots it looked like the UI wasn't | very well adapted to it's screen shape. | csdvrx wrote: | > From what I've seen, the tiny Palm Phone (from TCL) didn't do | very well, but there's still some inventory on Amazon: | https://palm.com/pages/product. | | The battery is the main issue, about 2h of use or 1 day if in | power saving mode with every optimization applied. | | It's still good enough as a travel phone, turned on only when I | need to call. | mendelmaleh wrote: | I'm still using a Pixel 5 with Android 11, so far so good. I used | to be a hardcore Android fan, but I don't really like where it's | going, at this point I'm almost rooting for a USB-C iPhone SE. | | (edit) Regarding the specifications: - don't care | for 5G, 4G has better range and better power efficiency - | don't care for a second rear camera, invest more into the first | - 4h SOT seems like a pretty low target, the Pixel 5 can probably | do 8h easily | vladms wrote: | What's wrong with Samsung S22? It is 6.1 inches (author mentions | 6' but I find this close enough), cameras are great and while not | stock Android the OneUI stuff is not annoying for me at least. | Plus it does have some of the other ideal/nice to have, although | not a perfect fit. | | I have to admit the S22 is one of the smallest high end Android | phones that caught my eye. | jimmaswell wrote: | I don't get the desire for a small phone personally. Very happy | with the S22 Ultra. | ManBlanket wrote: | I used a Palm, a phone about the dimensions of a business card, 1 | slammer-pog thick, and loved it. The battery life was dismal, I | had to disable most of the software which ran in the background, | the camera was crap, but I loved that phone. Then my stupid | provider implemented a list of approved devices and now I'm | schlepping around a big piece of garbage with a cracked screen. I | want my small phone back, so bad. | AbraKdabra wrote: | You know what I want? I want the manufacturers to stop doing damn | slim and thin phones and just give me a Motorola Milestone 1 type | of phone, made of metal, not thin and packed with a giant | battery, and a physical keyboard, I'm sick of "thinnest phone | ev4r" being a slogan to promote a phone. Give me that and I'll be | the first in line to buy it. | tazjin wrote: | > small | | > 5.4" | | Yeah, the ship well and truly has sailed on this. | meerita wrote: | iPhone 12 mini user here: after almost 2 years I decided to not | buy a new mini again. The battery life is the biggest factor on | my decision. I want a phone that lasts one day at least on full | use, the mini once you start doing GPS the battery dies almost in | two hours. The screen is good for messagging, some Twitter | browsing, etc. After that it becomes painful. I'm buying the next | model on the standard size, no need to go for the max options. | criddell wrote: | The iPhone 13 Mini has amazing battery life. It outlasts the | standard size iPhone 12. | arendtio wrote: | My Samsung Galaxy S3 turns 10 next month and it is still in daily | use as a second phone. The biggest reasons it is still working | are the changeable battery, the sdcard and wireless charging. | | It consumed something like one battery per year, the integrated | memory of 16GB are barely enough, but with a 64GB sdcard it | worked fine so far. However, the mirco-usb connector became | unstable years ago, but the wireless charging has very little | wear and works fine. | | I think an updated version (new processor, new camera, more RAM, | modern network capabilities) should be able to check most, if not | all, of the requirements from the website. | wollsmoth wrote: | Switched to iPhone 13 pro (not even the max) from the pixel 3. It | just seems so big but the clutch feature for me is the battery | life. I like not having to think about it, although that's | probably going to change as I get into the 3rd year of ownership. | | I thought I maybe made a mistake but then saw a Pixel 6 pro, it's | EVEN BIGGER. I do kind of regret getting a pro, but I'm not mad | enough about it to swap for a mini. | simonmales wrote: | I search long for something like this, and I just bought the Asus | Zenfone 8. It's also supported by LingeageOS. | nfriedly wrote: | I'd like a small premium Android phone too. | | I was thinking about my previous phones the other day, and I | really miss some of the more innovative ones from HTC. I think | the Startrek was my favorite - a Windows Mobile flip phone with a | "dumb phone" keypad. The myTouch 3g might be next - Android with | physical buttons and a trackball(!) | | Phones have gotten faster, but they keep getting bigger, the | battery life is rarely more than a day's worth of use, and the | "premium" ones keep getting more expensive - while simultaneously | loosing features like expandable storage and the headphone jack. | danielEM wrote: | Add there 2 USB type C >= 3.1 with displayport/hdmi Alt mode, | unlocked bootloader and I'm in | Melatonic wrote: | How much larger is the Sony Xperia 5 III ? | steelframe wrote: | I've replaced the battery twice on my Sony Xperia Z5 Compact and | have flashed a custom AOSP build, and I will continue to keep it | alive as long as humanly possible. | vbezhenar wrote: | iPhone Mini is still huge. I want 3.5" phone. That's it. | AdmiralAsshat wrote: | The Galaxy S10e is my current phone, and I'm not sure what I will | do when it stops receiving security updates. It's basically | perfect. It still has an SD card slot. It still has a headphone | jack. It has wireless charging. It's reasonably sized. And it had | flagship-for-the-time specs (albeit slightly less than the | mainline S10 or S10+). Samsung doesn't make anything comparable | to this anymore. | | The only drawback is that the battery life has gotten worse since | I originally bought it. But if I could easily swap that out, I | would keep it for another five years. | | EDIT: Oh, and the fingerprint scanner on the power button seems | to work way more reliably, IMO, than the embedded fingerprint | scanners under the touchscreens. | seydor wrote: | i m stuck with S10 too (+ it has headphone jack) | | Disable animations and it s not really slow. | cassepipe wrote: | Using a refurbished Galaxy S7. It works just fine, is small | enough and has a physical home button which I love. We don't | need new phones. Please stop buying new phones, buy refurbished | ones and prioritize easy to repair friendly hardware. | iamthirsty wrote: | The issue with refurbished ones is guaranteeing quality. | | If you buy from Amazon Renewed, for example, you have no idea | exactly what you'll get. You could get a pristine unit | without a scratch on it with a battery that has barely 10 | cycles, or you could get a well worn (with plenty of micro | scratches and minor nicks) with a battery that's been cycled | 500+ times. It's kind of a crap-shoot when it comes to buying | refurbished. | | As someone who takes pride in keeping my phones absolutely | perfect and even micro-scratch free, it's too much of a risk. | cassepipe wrote: | I bought mine on backmarket, they act as a middleman. You | buy from a repair with a minimum six months guarantee or | beyond. If it stops working, you can send it to repair. | Batteries are guaranted to be at least 70% original | capacity or have been replaced. There are different grades | from scratched to pristine. Not sure they operate in your | country though. Getting a former flagship phone for 150 | euros with a CPU just as good or equivalent to a new phone | of the same price seems worth it to me. Plus it's nice not | to have to worry about that expensive thing in your pocket. | Normille wrote: | I'll see your Galaxy S10e and raise you a Galaxy S7. Just the | right size for me and still going strong, in spite of the fact | it was second hand already, when I bought it off eBay about 4 | or 5 years ago. | | I really don't know why people think they need a new phone | every year. I've had 2 in the past decade. Both bought cheaply | second hand [previous one am HTC One M8] and I got years of use | out of each. In fact the One M8 is still working fine, apart | from the degraded battery life. | magnio wrote: | Using the same phone. The glass on the back is a bit broken | after I dropped it for like the 100th time, and the battery | life is somewhat mediocre, but otherwise it is the best thing I | have ever used. | | The S22 (standard version) has slightly bigger screen but is | quite similar in size, so that is probably what I will use | next. | abvdasker wrote: | I did exactly what you're describing. I like the S22 but it | is a little bigger than my ideal size. My only minor nitpick | is with the fingerprint reader being under the screen instead | of embedded in the power button (which I loved about the s10e | since holding it naturally would unlock the screen). Samsung | should just make something like an S22e or 23e. | pizza234 wrote: | If you have a bit of patience, install LineageOS. Samsung | phones have a big following in this domain - as of today | (May/2022), even the Galaxy S3 (Neo) is supported (!). | | I'm not saying it's trivial (it's not hard, but has a large | enough amount of small actions to execute), but it's definitely | worth doubling (or more) the phone duration. | | The FamousProducer(tm) of my phone supported it for 3 years. | This is terrible. LineageOS allows me to use it now - over 3 | years after the end of support. Screw FamousProducer(tm). | AdmiralAsshat wrote: | IIRC, LineageOS support for US Samsung devices with | Snapdragon CPUs has always been very limited. Rooting them is | difficult, if not impossible, and I seem to remember that | doing so blows some kind of fuse in the device itself which | then irreparably caps the battery on the device to like 80%. | | Given that the S10e's battery life is already waning, I'm not | sure I want to do that. But yes! If there were a safe way to | do so, I would gladly run LOS on the phone for ten years. | pizza234 wrote: | Ouch. I wasn't aware of that. I think I've rooted in the | past the S2 and S3, but it was long ago. | | Another brand that seems to be well supported (although not | as extensively, timewise, as Samsung) is Google. LineageOS | still supports the Pixel 1. | jen20 wrote: | > FamousProducer(tm) | | Why be so coy about this? Naming and shaming should serve as | a warning to those who might buy one expecting long term | support, or as a spur to action towards LineageOS for those | who many have been or are about to be blindsided by the | support window expiring. | pizza234 wrote: | You're correct. The reason is not to attribute industry | common practices to a specific company, but it makes sense | also to expose it :) The producer is Google. I think (not | sure) that they support their phones for 3 years. | _emacsomancer_ wrote: | 3 years for the older ones but at least 5 years for newer | devices: https://support.google.com/pixelphone/answer/445 | 7705?hl=en#z... | zerocrates wrote: | The previous security update window guarantee for Pixels | from Google was 3 years. With the 6 series (I believe | they confirmed this includes the 6a) they extended that | to 5 years. | | My real problem isn't the previous 3 year window but that | it counts from the _first_ day they sell it, not the | _last_. I bought my current phone, a Pixel 3a, late in | its cycle for cheaper, early in 2020. It 's now basically | at the end of its updates because the guarantee counts 3 | years starting from the release date in mid-2019, not | from when I bought it. | | 5 years is obviously preferable but I'd like them to have | also shifted it to be based on when they stop selling | them new. | pmlnr wrote: | LineageOS will probably support it forever, given they still | release for S4. | rootusrootus wrote: | I have to say, I do like the form factor of the iPhone Mini. Not | enough to buy one, because my aging eyes prefer a larger screen | now, but it really does feel nice in your hand. Just fits, no | stretching, a perfect fit. | | The problem, of course, is much like brown manual diesel station | wagons, it's a small but vocal niche and there may not be enough | actual buyers to justify it. Apple's sales figures are large | enough that it may very well 'big enough' for them, but is that | true for any individual Android manufacturer? | lormayna wrote: | One of my first Android phones was an Sony Ericsson Xperia X10 | Mini Pro. It was great except the low resolution display and | camera and bad touchscreen. I will buy a similar phone with new | Android version. | 0xbadcafebee wrote: | There are 120 Android phones with 4G that are 5.8" or smaller, | since 2019. Of those, the best are probably the Cat S62 Pro, | Pixel 4 or 3, Fairphone 3+, and Samsung Galaxy S10e. | https://www.gsmarena.com/results.php3?nYearMin=2018&fDisplay... | | Palm released a _tiny_ Android phone in 2018, but the performance | was crap so it didn 't sell. Smaller phone means smaller battery | and fewer cutting edge components, unless you fab everything | yourself, making it more expensive. The tradeoffs don't work | unless you're the richest company in the world. | rootusrootus wrote: | > The tradeoffs don't work unless you're the richest company in | the world. | | More accurately, I think that would be "unless you sell the | most phones in the world." A niche iPhone still sells more | phones than Google. | jl6 wrote: | If this thread proves anything it's that there is huge demand for | customizable phone designs. Currently, there is total reliance on | economies of scale to make standardized SKUs affordable. | | Imagine if you could figure out a way of manufacturing a phone | with design on demand... imagine a configurator website where you | adjusted sliders and tickboxes. Headphone jack here, screen size | slider all the way to the left, battery size all the way to the | right, pick your color, oops you can't have IP68 because you | selected the pop-out camera... | | Like variable fonts, but for hardware. | | Frankly I've no idea how you would do it. | | But that's the level of innovation required to unlock this | market. | rootusrootus wrote: | > If this thread proves anything it's that there is huge demand | for customizable phone designs. | | I think it just proves what we already know -- there is a vocal | minority (but strong emphasis on _minority_ ) who would like a | customizable phone. The market largely doesn't seem to care. | And it may even actively discriminate _against_ customizable | phones by ensuring they had no resale value. The more custom | you want it, the fewer people who want to buy that particular | device. | automathematics wrote: | For me, must have: - Wireless Charging | | Nice to Have: - Higher refresh rate screen! | | Just because we're small doesn't mean we need to have worse | feature sets! | unixhero wrote: | The Razer 5G from Motorola is small | aimor wrote: | I really liked my Xperia XZ2C, until the touch screen started | glitching out. I'd love to hear if anyone has a solution for this | common problem (touch becomes unresponsive, or goes wild, and is | fixed temporarily by locking the screen or squeezing the screen). | | I'm glad the author mentioned weight, as I think it should be | added to the list of requirements. The iPhone6 is 129 g and feels | light, the iPhone13 mini is 141 g, my XZ2C is 168 g and is heavy | enough I think it causes wrist pain, while the Pixel 5a is 183 g! | aimor wrote: | Might be a grounding issue, solved by separating the screen and | the battery. | | https://www.gsmarena.com/sony_xperia_xz2_compact-reviews-908... | | "U must open the case and Put some sticker behind the lcd.ghost | touch happen cause have contact between lcd and battery. | Grounding issue" | | I'm willing to try it. | sroussey wrote: | The problem with the iPhone Mini was that it was not a Pro and | this not all the cameras, etc. | | It would have sold like hot cakes! I would have paid extra for a | smaller iPhone Pro. | gsich wrote: | Galaxy S7, the last usable Samsung phone. | foobarbecue wrote: | Me too! AT&T kicked my xperia mini off their network for no good | reason. I bought a pixel 4a which was the smallest compatible | thing I could find. I also bought a Chinese 4g smartwatch hoping | I can use that as a phone. | steanne wrote: | t-mobile did the same thing to my z1 compact, but i bought a | used xz1 compact and they allowed it. | brk wrote: | What I really want is both, a larger phone (for me happens to be | iPhone) for "most of the time" and a smaller phone for occasional | use. I want them to have the same phone number and keep data in | sync, basically like two extensions of the same line. However, | I'm not willing to pay my carrier a premium/additional monthly | cost just to have two phones that cannot be used simultaneously. | | Much of this is able to be done with wifi, but not via the | cellular networks (without additional costs). | | In other words, there is no ideal one-size-fits-all option, and | I'd be willing to pay for additional hardware to give me choice | of what to carry at any given time, but I do not want to pay | Verizon just for the privilege of having a 2nd SIM provisioned | (and I do not want to swap SIMs). | ris58h wrote: | Foldables. | soheil wrote: | I've had one for 2 years now. Love it and agree with all Eric's | points except | | > are easy to use one-handed without dropping | | I find it very hard to use one handed and it keeps slipping | through my fingers if I try to type on it one handed. Also my | finger constantly partially block the rear camera when taking | pictures. It probably has something to do with the size of my | hands. Otherwise, I love how light it is and you barely notice it | in your pocket when walking or biking. | TheRealNGenius wrote: | stop whining and be the change you want to see in the world. | source some parts from China and make it yourself. | nathell wrote: | Yes please. Before I switched to the iPhone, I was using the | Xiaomi Mi A1, which ticked a lot of the boxes for me (stock | Android!) while also having a great bang-for-buck value; but I'd | still have preferred it in a smaller form factor. | hammock wrote: | Shameless plug for the Jelly 2. | https://www.unihertz.com/products/jelly-2 | | It's not a "flagship" but it is fully featured - nothing spared - | and half the size of my palm. The screen is just small enough to | be too annoying to do anything really distracting on. I have | gotten NOTHING but compliments on it since I started using it a | month ago (on a reco I picked up here). | SkyPuncher wrote: | I have a Unihertz Titan Pocket (physical keyboard). I'm | planning to get the new slim model when it comes out. | | These are top of the line phones, but they're very solid. | Unihertz is making some good devices. | NoraCodes wrote: | The Titan Pocket looks amazing but I'm a bit unsure about the | company's track record regarding android updates. Do you get | regular security updates? | giaour wrote: | How long does the battery last? Does the phone feel thick in | your pocket? (From the photos, it looks like the device is | about the same width and height as a 2020 iPhone SE but | significantly thicker.) | SkyPuncher wrote: | Battery last _very long_. Probably 2+ days on a full | charge. I don't actually know. It last so long that I don't | really have to worry about it. | | Size profile is basically the same as an old school | Blackberry. No problems with it. | persedes wrote: | +1 for the jelly 2. It works perfectly for everything I "need" | a smart phone for. | | Just be aware the the Wifi often drops and battery life is 1.5 | days at best. But again, makes it really easy to not do | anything distracting on it lol | pcurve wrote: | love it. looks like a phone you can throw across the room | awalGarg wrote: | Can you release the kernel sources? Thanks. | SoftTalker wrote: | One concern with a very small phone is that it necessarily has | a very small battery. If you can charge frequently, or you only | use the phone for an occasional text message it may be OK for | you, but if you're checking it every few minutes and active on | social media you'll likely not be happy with it. | hammock wrote: | With regular use the battery lasts about as long as the | iPhone 13 Pro, that is to say, slightly less than a full day. | But the point of this phone is that ideally you are using it | less. | brnaftr361 wrote: | I didn't find this to be true with the XZ1 Compact, and it in | fact consistently outlasted everyone else's phones despite | similar use profiles. | dskloet wrote: | Why not use the third dimension and make it thicker to fit a | decent battery? | SoftTalker wrote: | Thicker would not be an issue for me (up to a point). | Especially on a very small phone. Would probably make it | easier to hold. | csdvrx wrote: | > It's not a "flagship" but it is fully featured - nothing | spared - and half the size of my palm | | How does it compare to the palm phone PVG100, usually available | for 1/3 of the price? (new but in OEM box) | | It seems much thicker. | | Also, which network are you using? | | https://www.unihertz.com/blogs/news/about-at-t-usage-in-the-... | | > Recently, AT&T released a whitelist of smartphone brands that | will continue to work on their network after February 2022. | Unfortunately, Unihertz products are not among them. | | I hope someone sues AT&T for its discriminative policy. | hammock wrote: | Verizon. Not familiar with PVG100, looks interesting though. | Thanks for the tip | csdvrx wrote: | > Verizon | | Then just get a PVG100, it supports all the features as it | was made for this network! | reaperducer wrote: | Thanks for posting that. At first glance, it looks like one of | those $20 burner phones from 7-Eleven, but looking more | closely, it seems much better than that. | | Love the idea of the IR remote. I miss that from my PalmPilot. | bityard wrote: | Oh man, that thing is _adorable_ and the price is certainly | right. | | (Unfortunately I am personally looking for something in between | this and today's "phablets".) | fwipsy wrote: | Unihertz has some other phones in different sizes, like the | ruggedized Atom L/XL with a 4" screen. | amyjess wrote: | I think I might actually get this. How well does this work with | Google Fi? | | So years and years ago, when my main phone was a Nokia N900, I | would occasionally walk into phone stores and see what was out | there out of sheer curiosity. One day I saw an HTC Wildfire S, | and I fell in love with the form factor right away. | Unfortunately, I never bought it because I had my N900 and it | was just too damn _useful_ to justify giving it up for a cheap | Android phone, and to this day I regret not buying one. It was | so small and so cute and I wanted it, and now even if I do buy | a used one on eBay it 'll just be a glorified brick because it | doesn't have LTE and no apps will run on its ancient version of | Android. This is the closest thing I've ever seen to the HTC | Wildfire S since... I think I actually will buy it, at least as | a backup device. | arkad wrote: | > The screen is just small enough to be too annoying to do | anything really distracting on | | I'm a happy user of Jelly 2 for a half year now and I bought it | for this single reason. It's fully featured so you can do | anything, but the screen is so small that you do it only when | there's a real need, so I'm not wasting time staring at the | phone for no real reason. | | Cons: My co-workers make fun of me :) | | Edit: formatting | manmal wrote: | I can imagine there will often be comments along the line of | ,,What's that, a phone for ants?" | twibird wrote: | They're just Jelly | mcdonje wrote: | Is it waterproof? A small phone like this would be ideal for | working out or hiking. But between sweat and rain, I'd want it | to be waterproof for those scenarios. | hammock wrote: | Haven't tested it. It has a headphone jack so probably not | waterproof | mcdonje wrote: | Thanks. You're probably right. After my comment, I found | the rest of their lineup, and it looks like the one that | would suit my needs is the Atom: | https://www.unihertz.com/products/atom | smallerfish wrote: | I have a unihertz Atom XL. | | Pros: | | - Battery lasts for 3 days with my usage (browsing when not at | my desk, whatsapp, a handful of calls, android auto) | | - Rugged / waterproof (IP68) | | - Fits nicely in your hand | | - 48 MP camera - not as good as Pixels, but good | | - Good dual SIM setup | | Cons: | | - Thick; probably mostly due to the battery. Doesn't bother me, | but if you wear skinny jeans and carry your phone in your front | pocket it'll be noticeable | | - Just got Android 11 | | - The built in walkie talkie is something of a gimmick since it | chews up battery in standby/monitor mode. I thought it would be | a useful backup since we live in the sticks w/o reliable phone | signal. Get the Atom L instead | ourmandave wrote: | I had the Atom until AT&T said it wasn't compatible with | their 5G forced switch over. Now I have the cheapest android | they offer until I can find something else. | | I had an original Jelly but battery life was miserable. | eikenberry wrote: | You could also switch to T-mobile or Verizon. Though you | probably already thought of that. | ourmandave wrote: | Yeah, in my area T-Mobile isn't. And Verizon is amazing | but triple what I'm paying now. | eikenberry wrote: | Don't know if you checked recently but Verizon was always | way more expensive here as well but about a year or so | ago we noticed they had started offering must more | competitive pricing for families/individuals. | cmurf wrote: | <3 this is awesome! It even has NFC! So you can use Google Pay | with it? WiFi calling? Looks like the perfect Google Fi and | international travel phone too with all the bands it supports. | riccardomc wrote: | I also have a Jelly 2, I really like it and I used it as my | main phone for a month. | | The reason I switched back to my Samsung Galaxy is because I | changed job and will need to use it for work, and frankly the | Jelly is just too small to be efficient. | | It is otherwise an amazing little phone. | aidenn0 wrote: | I love my Jelly 2. The only thing that it skimped on was the | camera. The primary camera is worse than my Moto G5 was. It's | adequate for my primary usage of "taking pictures of things I | need to remember (serial numbers, receipts &c)" but nearly | useless as a general purpose photography tool. | doliveira wrote: | Do you have any issues with apps and layouts misbehaving | because of the small screen? Being annoying to type on is a | feature, but is it basically impossible? | aidenn0 wrote: | I have one too. The main issue I have is some dialogs will | need scrolling to see all options (FairEmail is the worst | offender of the apps I use). | hammock wrote: | Sometimes websites with big popups fuck with you, but then | again we ought to be avoiding those websites anyway. I | haven't noticed any issues with apps. | | Typing is much easier than you would think. With swipe typing | it's almost at par. | doliveira wrote: | Cool. What about typing passwords, codes, numbers? I'd | wager without social media those would be the most common | things I'd type | aidenn0 wrote: | I have one too, and I was suprised by how "not bad" it is | for this. I can reach each key with my thumb, so I get | muscle memory for each letter. The only issue I have is | hitting W instead of E, as E is super common and it's far | from the lower right corner. | | I also use bitwarden for passwords, so the main thing I | type without swype is the passphrase for bitwarden, and | proper names that autocorrect will then proceed to change | to the wrong thing afterwards anyways (just like a big | android phone). | hallway_monitor wrote: | Lastpass mostly prevents needing to manually enter login | info, even though the automatic activation only works 70% | of the time. | hammock wrote: | I save everything in Google, which helps me autofill | passwords, credit cards, addresses, emails, etc.. _ducks_ | NearAP wrote: | This resonates with me (I'm an iPhone user). | | Never been a fan of the large phones which was why I held on to | my iPhone 6S for a very long time (compared to how frequently | folks upgrade) before finally upgrading to an iPhone 12 mini | (when I ran out of space on the 6S). | londgine wrote: | The galaxy xcover 5 is really good | https://m.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_xcover_5-ampp-10718.ph... | 5.3 screen, full rectangular screen (no notch or hole), | replaceable battery and dual sim. It is unfortunately Samsung, so | it has their bloat. But that isn't too bad. | exabrial wrote: | how about expandable storage and headphone jack while we're at | it? We can keep more phones out of the landfill and hone back | production of newer stuff. | conaclos wrote: | I own a Samsung A3 2017 that measures 66x135mm (4.7" screen). It | is even smaller than iPhone 12 mini. It is really hard nowadays | to find such a small phone. | magneticnorth wrote: | I just made the switch from Android to iPhone, entirely because I | wanted a small phone that still has a good camera and good | battery life. If iPhone discontinues the mini or there's a small | Android phone on the market that meets my needs, I'd switch back | happily. | newaccount2021 wrote: | nikonyrh wrote: | Sub 6 inches, why not sub 5? Six inches is about 28% larger than | a Samsung A3 from 2017. | reusable_batt wrote: | yeellow wrote: | Funny thing is that I still use my Samsung Note 3 (8 years old | and kicking, with Android 11) and what was considered | ridiculously large phone when I got it (people were laughing at | me) is now the smallest one around. It was interesting to observe | this gradual shift in perception, especially among those who were | laughing at me back than :) | perardi wrote: | _"matching size and design of iPhone 13 Mini"_ | | So, by all accounts, the iPhone mini has been an extremely slow | seller. | | https://www.macrumors.com/2022/04/21/iphone-13-mini-unpopula... | | Why would that form factor succeed in the Android space? | | --- | | I see these meme on tech sites all the time: "oh phones are too | big I just want something simple". That is a valid sentiment that | I think is shared by basically no average consumer. For a _lot_ | of people, phones are their primary computing devices, so a big | screen is nice there. Bigger phones allow for more battery | capacity. Aging populations like them because you can use screen | zoom features to really blow up that text size without making the | effective viewport too small. | | And...people just like big stuff. I know that's simplistic and a | little condescending, but then look at SUV and truck sales. | gjsman-1000 wrote: | Another under-mentioned reason is that iPhones have more | efficient processors that generate less heat, and also need | less RAM to perform equivalently. | | Whereas, fitting a top-line Snapdragon into a small phone is a | challenge. There's a reason why top-tier phones have copper | heatpipes, vapor chambers, and so on. All things no iPhone has | or needs. | | You could still do a small Android phone, but you might have to | abandon the idea of including a Snapdragon 8. | hindsightbias wrote: | It's hard to tell from the colors, but if you take the 8, the | two SE models, the 12 & 13 minis that's closer to 15%. Those | models are are about the same size. | dkackman11 wrote: | I am saddened to hear that there will be no iPhone 14 mini. I | have the 12 mini and like the author do not want a huge phone. | prof_hibschman wrote: | Apple never releases a "pro" mini -- with the same | camera/processor as the larger variants. Thinking back, the | iPhone 5s was near the perfect size for my pockets. | | These days I find myself leaving my phone more and more, only | taking it when I probably need a camera. | erohead wrote: | I touch on this on the site. 5% of iPhones sold are minis. | That's 10m sold per year! That is more than enough demand to | cover the NREs and costs of making a phone. | | * https://9to5mac.com/2022/04/21/cirp-iphone-13-best- | selling-l... | DANK_YACHT wrote: | 5% seems quite small and not worth the trouble. It might be | worth it if a small phone generated 5% in additional sales, | but most people buying a small iPhone would likely buy a | normal-sized iPhone if no small version was available rather | than making the switch to Android. | blairbeckwith wrote: | The point is that 5% (or 10m phones) does not make sense | for Apple to continue to build, but that has no relation to | whether it's worth it to another company. | ncallaway wrote: | 5% of 100 phones is 5 phones. | | 5% of 200,000,000 is 10,000,000. | | 5% can be a huge number, or a tiny number, depending on | what it's 5% _of_. | | I switched from Android to Apple _specifically_ for the | iPhone mini, and if they killed it, I would switch to the | smallest phone on the market. | 4ggr0 wrote: | I switched to Apple after 10 years of using Android. | Wanted to have a good and small phone, which the 12 mini | is. | | Was a hard decision, because my Android was rooted with | LineageOS, was able to block ads and all kinds of nice | things. | | But ultimately, it just pissed me off too much to carry | around a bulky phone (Fairphone 3). | | Fairly happy with the 12 mini, just don't like the Apple | ecosystem that much. | DANK_YACHT wrote: | My point is that 5% is probably an irrelevant number | because it's not 5% additional sales. If the mini wasn't | available, many people would get a normal iPhone instead | of switch to Android. So the net sales is closer to 0. | Apple seems to agree with this sentiment and there will | be no mini starting with the iPhone 14: | https://9to5mac.com/2022/03/14/exclusive- | iphone-14-coming-in... | | Good luck with your switch. | nostromo wrote: | Phone sales aren't driven by switching, and haven't been | for a while, they're about upgrading. Apple knows this | better than anyone. | | For example: I upgrade my phone every two years or so, so | long as I like the new phones. If I don't like the new | phones, I wait as long as possible. | | People that like smaller phones won't necessarily leave | the iPhone if they kill the Mini - they will just keep | their current phones for as long as possible. And that | can indeed hurt sales, even if Apple doesn't lose market | share. | criddell wrote: | That's why I picked up an iPhone 13 Mini. It's a really | great phone and when I need a new phone six years from | now, I'm hoping there's something as good to replace it. | brewdad wrote: | Is there a world where the iPhone mini is necessary or | desirable when the iPhone SE also exists? I don't see a | need for both, especially when they run the same | processor under the hood. | fossuser wrote: | The mini is a flagship phone with flagship specs and | better design. | | The newest SE is substantially larger and worse. | | I love my mini, but it's also clear this is the last one. | buildsjets wrote: | The iPhone SE is a full-sized phone. It just happens to | be obsolete in the marketplace, and the other full-sized | phones it competes against have become even fuller sized. | isoprophlex wrote: | Optics on the 13 mini are significantly better! | dont__panic wrote: | I use an iPhone SE 2016, which uses the same chassis as | the iPhone 5/5s. | | I tried an iPhone 6S for a year before I got this phone. | Couldn't stand the size. The current SE is the same size | as the 6S. I'm basically stuck at a dead-end of phone | size. | | The current SE is not compact by historical standards. | I'm not saying all phones need to be smaller, I just want | one decent option. | robertoandred wrote: | The current SE is bigger than the mini. | ska wrote: | Doesn't the SE have an significantly worse & smaller | screen (not to mention camera), although it's a slightly | larger package? | | SE is clearly a 'budget' (at least for apple) phone. Some | people really want a small phone that isn't. | fredophile wrote: | Your argument suggests that there are actually 2 smart | phone markets. One for iPhones, one for everything else. I | think this is a fairly reasonable assumption for the | majority of consumers. | | Let's assume very few people are switching ecosystems at | this point based on form factor. That would mean Apple made | a new product to cannibalize 5% of their existing market. | No similar product exists in the android ecosystem. It | seems reasonable that an android phone maker could get | similar market share but have these sales come from a | combination of their existing sales and competitors sales. | vvillena wrote: | If the iPhone mini is managing to capture all of the "I | want a small flagship phone" market, it's worth it. As long | as the Mini exists, it's impossible for other manufacturers | to try and compete. | auggierose wrote: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagship | | There is no such thing as a _small_ flagship. | mikestew wrote: | It would probably be useful to read the _whole_ article | that one links to, because there 's no flagship small | enough to fit in your pocket, unless...: | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagship#Flagship_as_metaph | or | | Now, whether an iPhone Mini fits into that metaphor can | be debated, but it's just a metaphor, after all. :-) | drdaeman wrote: | If we're talking about actual ships, USS Constitution is | tiny compared to most US Navy ships ;) | | (Not sure how good this example is, but anyway - flagship | doesn't have to be physically giant.) | moonchrome wrote: | >That is more than enough demand to cover the NREs and costs | of making a phone. | | Then why is Apple dropping it ? | jazzyjackson wrote: | because covering costs is not the same as maximizing profit | scyzoryk_xyz wrote: | I half suspect that Apple will be coming back with another | small phone a few years down the line and then a cycle will | continue where they will always have something like an SE | or mini, but it won't ever be flagship level. | dylan-m wrote: | I feel like that has been the problem with the Mini. I | love mine (which I got because I was fed up with Pixel | and Android in general), but I know I only have it | because I got in at the right time. My wife bought an | iPhone at the _wrong_ time and hers is comically large. | She would have happily bought an iPhone Mini if it had | been available that year. By the time she needs a new | iPhone, it will be another year where the only options | are gigantic. | danieldk wrote: | Agreed. I hope the rumors are false and that they'll continue | to make the Mini. However, 5% does not mean much if market | research proves that those people would buy a regular iPhone | anyway if they drop the Mini. | | I think there is also some competition with the iPhone SE. | Even though the Mini is not intended to be a budget phone, it | is 100 Euro cheaper than the non-mini. So, I can imagine a | chunk of people would buy it for its lower price if the | iPhone SE didn't exist. Even more if you consider that the | Mini actually has a larger screen than the SE. | d3nj4l wrote: | It's as good as guaranteed that the mini won't be returning | this year - dummy models of the upcoming line which are | used to size cases have made their way to the usual | leakers, and even before that the front panels of the line | were leaked. No mini, unfortunately :/ | hbn wrote: | I'd be fine if they made it a biennial release. I don't | need to upgrade my phone more than that anyway. | | I feel like my plan right now is to hope with the iPhone | 14 launch, the 13 mini will continue to be sold with a | price drop, and then I'll upgrade my 12 mini to the 13 | mini and get the battery improvement. I love the size of | this phone and hope I'm never forced back to the gigantic | "normal-sized" phones that we've gotten stuck with the | past decade. | rekoil wrote: | That said, Apple does tend to keep their designs for a | fair while, so it's possible there will be one next year, | or that it will become the new SE at some point. | | I really really want a Pro Mini :( | Bud wrote: | You won't get one, unfortunately, both because there's no | motivation for Apple to make it, and because battery life | would be an insurmountable issue, at least with current | tech. The battery life in the Mini is already | significantly inferior to the other iPhones in the line; | Apple's only going to be willing to push that so far | before it's an obviously-compromised product and they | would just refuse to ship it. | cercatrova wrote: | But you're not Apple though. | achow wrote: | Hold on; the math is not that easy. | | For one - most of the iPhone Mini sale is because of 'Halo | effect', die hard fans who anyway would have bought an | iPhone, bought the mini version. An Android phone maker will | not have that brand pull or halo effect to establish a new | category, so it would be no where near that 10M number. | | Second, iPhone or Mac devices are known for hardware and | software integration. That translates among other things to | good battery life (similar to RAM. Apple never talks about | RAM). | | iPhone Mini has been weak in battery department [1], one of | the factor in its low sale as compared to bigger device. A | Mini Android device will have mini batteries, that means it | will have no chance in h* to last through the day - the | minimum requirement in this day and age. | | [1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/oct/20/apple- | iph.... | dti wrote: | > it will have no chance in h* to last through the day | | My previous Xperia Compact, which is of about the same | dimensions as mini, survived for a couple of days easily | when new. | | > iPhone Mini has been weak in battery department [1] | | The article says "solid battery life", which matches my | experience with 13 mini. | minusf wrote: | > iPhone Mini has been weak in battery department | | might have been true for mini 12, but mini 13 has amazing | battery life, certainly nothing like 2020 SE which is truly | abysmal. | dont__panic wrote: | > most of the iPhone Mini sale is because of 'Halo effect', | die hard fans who anyway would have bought an iPhone, | bought the mini version. | | Citation needed? A lot of people love to jump to the | conclusion that nobody wants small phones. My personal | experience does not align with that conclusion. I'm happy | to accept this conclusion if you have some kind of evidence | for it, but the linked article just discusses battery life, | which was greatly improved in the iPhone 13 Mini anyway. | elorant wrote: | If you're a diehard fan why would you buy a subpar phone, | and not the latest flagship? Smaller phones imply less | usage because some things aren't as pleasant as on a bigger | screen. | buildsjets wrote: | I guess I am a diehard fan of only small iPhones, as | since 2007 my lineup has been: iPhone 3, iPhone 3Gs, | iPhone 4, iPhone 5, iPhone SE, and currently 12 Mini. | | As far as I am concerned, the mini IS the flagship. I | would never even consider buying one of the larger | models, as I consider them to be subpar, unpleasant | devices to carry and to use. I'd choose to carry no phone | over having to carry a full-sized phone, they have become | too large to be considered conveniently portable. | | For me, the perfect smart phone would be the same size | and shape as a credit card, edge-to-edge screen on all | sides, and approximately 3mm thick. And it would run iOS | of course. | igreulich wrote: | I buy the best camera an iPhone will give me. If that same | camera in the Pro Max was in the Mini I would have bough that. | | The iPhone 5 was the perfect size, and I miss that form factor. | But The camera is what sells me the device. | izacus wrote: | These "slow iPhone 13 mini" sales are more than all Google | Pixel phones sold in a year. Think about that. | | I don't understand when did the ability to choose a product | fitting your preferences become a bad thing on HackerNews and | modern American perception. Why is being able to buy niche | products somehow not a worthy thing to be desired? | reaperducer wrote: | _I don 't understand when did the ability to choose a product | fitting your preferences become a bad thing on HackerNews_ | | Because so many on HN have been indoctrinated into the "scale | at all costs" mentality. | | It demonstrates the difference between HN and the real world. | | On HN, if you can't serve a billion people, your product is | niche. In the real world, billions of people earn a very nice | living making niche products. | | It's why so many people on HN don't understand Panic, or its | PlayDate. They don't understand artisan anything. They've | forgotten the whole hipster movement, which still exists in | pockets of the world. They can't grok that there are | companies that have been in business for hundreds of years | making products one at a time -- by hand. | | "X doesn't scale" is HN for "I know nothing about how the | world works." | Bud wrote: | Saying that HN readers (who are quite diverse, btw) "know | nothing about how the world works" or "don't understand" | things in this context is just lazy thinking. | | We understand just fine. It's not difficult to comprehend | the appeal of customized, handmade work. The appeal is | clear. | | It's just that it's completely irrelevant in the context of | this thread. Because you can't design and make smartphones | by hand, one at a time. So what are you even talking about? | scarface74 wrote: | And it took Panic a decade to release the Playdate and it | is still back ordered for over a year. Hardware has to | "scale" to get manufacturing capacity and scale economies. | disharko wrote: | Also consider he's specifically appealing to makers of | premium phones - you can bet Google and Samsung care a lot | about scale. And to the parent's point about the iPhone 13 | mini's sales still being more than all Pixels: ok, so then | consider the already much smaller Pixel market share and | how many people are left at the % of iPhone sales that the | mini made up. | | I'd love for this to happen, signed the petition, and will | hope for the best, but I think even if there would be a | decent market for this the big players don't care to make | that bet. | bee_rider wrote: | If hipster culture was so good, it would have expanded | across the world and taken over everything. | NoSorryCannot wrote: | Are you saying hipsterism can't be very good because it | didn't scale? | wiseowise wrote: | That's not how it works. X is amazing, but has a steep | price so only "hipsters" can buy it which prevents it | from taking over the world. | [deleted] | pcmoney wrote: | If hipster culture is predicated on being different/"not | like the other girls" then by definition it is | unscalable. | | The whole point of a lot of things is that they are | unscalable and if they somehow do scale they are not | longer what they were. | [deleted] | tablespoon wrote: | >> I don't understand when did the ability to choose a | product fitting your preferences become a bad thing on | HackerNews | | > Because so many on HN have been indoctrinated into the | "scale at all costs" mentality. | | HN also has many fanboys that slavishly celebrate the | decisions of certain prestigious companies as the best | possible ones, because that prestigious company made it. | Other decisions can be assumed to be inferior because, if | they had merit, the company would have picked that instead. | | IMHO, a lot of technology has plateaued, to the point where | the hip new thing is objectively a regression that just | looks different. | cortesoft wrote: | > In the real world, billions of people earn a very nice | living making niche products. | | But rarely something as expensive to create as a smart | phone. | izacus wrote: | Really? Because things like cabriolet cars, speciality | cars, high-end audio equipment, luxury furniture and many | others exist. | | If anything, mobile phone market is exceedingly horrible | because of consolidation into a single product with not | much choice. | [deleted] | cortesoft wrote: | Maybe we could have a market for very high end phones | that cost $3000, but I haven't seen anyone try to fill | that niche yet. Maybe it isn't there? | | Even if it was there, that doesn't mean the phone would | be small. People who want small phones aren't necessarily | wealthy, so they would only be going after the market for | the intersection of 'wealthy + want small phone'... which | might be a very small market and not worth pursuing. | a4isms wrote: | That market absolutely exists, and a few people have | tried to serve it over the years. Here's an old example, | a Samsung phone promoted by Jackie Chan that cost about | $3,000 back in 2012: | | https://www.androidauthority.com/samsung- | sch-w2013-jackie-ch... | | And in 2018, One Plus had a $3,000 phone: | | https://www.cnet.com/tech/mobile/this-3000-oneplus-6-is- | the-... | shadowtree wrote: | The fact that none of these still exist proves that there | is no market. It does prove that companies tried to see | if there is one. | a4isms wrote: | I'd be very careful about suggesting that failure proves | there is no market for something. | | Many PC companies failed before Apple succeeded. Apple | itself failed to the point of almost being acquired by | Sun before succeeding by buying NeXT and shipping some | hit products in the form of colourful iMacs and iPods | with click-wheels. | | The biggest problem with luxury products is that they | have almost nothing to do with the product's tangible | features and everything to do with whether you can | establish a valuable brand. We live in a world where | people spend thousands of dollars on fancy numbers that | we have a kind of gentleman's agreement signify that they | "own" a jpeg anyone can copy. | | I suggest that there is absolutely a market for | ridiculously priced phones, but the problem is not hand- | crafting a phone with rare materials, the problem is | creating the collective hallucination that owning such a | phone will make other people envy you. | | Apple actually sold some solid gold watches. There was a | market for a $18,000 Apple Watch. It wasn't something | worth sustaining in perpetuity, but there was a market. | They also launched ridiculously priced accessories from | Hermes, and there is still a market for them almost a | decade later. | | People will pay large amounts of money for exclusive | items, but it takes a particular set of skills to launch | something and convince the world it's the must-have | accessory of the moment. | bee_rider wrote: | I think this is not exactly what GP was talking about. | These are normal phones with an expensive marketing | gimmick. | | The "RED Hydrogen One," by that fancy camera company is | closer I think. At least it had some story that could | hypothetically have ended with a compelling technological | reason for it to exist (RED is supposed to know cameras). | Although, it didn't seem to work out either, but with a | sample size of 1 it could be a fluke of poor execution. | | https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/10/red-quits-the- | smartp... | | I'm surprised none of the really consumer-oriented camera | companies have broken into smartphones. Camera stuff | seems like more of a selling point for smartphones, than | phone stuff. But, it seems like they never really want to | dive in fully. | Tijdreiziger wrote: | Leica tried making one in Japan, but apparently camera | cameras and smartphone cameras are somewhat different | beasts. | | I enjoyed MrMobile's review: https://youtu.be/skIgG8q_lKs | bee_rider wrote: | Yeah, this came up when I was looking around. I'd call it | a case of not diving in fully. Since it is really just a | rebrand of a phone from some other company (albeit one | for which they provided the optics). | bsder wrote: | The limitation to making niche phones are the stupid, | sclerotic, _CARRIERS_ --not the manufacturers. It's the | carrier gatekeeping that prevents niche phones from | forming. | | We need a ruling like from back in the Bell System era | where you are allowed to bring customer equipment to the | network _without_ the network owner permission. | scarface74 wrote: | You don't need a network owners permission for GSM/LTE. | The only time you needed that was for CDMA. | izacus wrote: | You need one for VoLTE (so any voice calls), 5G and Wifi | calling. | | Without carrier phone whitelist, you won't be able to | call on AT&T and many other networks. | d3nj4l wrote: | Much of that can be chalked down to the fact that Apple | doesn't have that many models they actively sell, so the | models that they do tend to have way more than any individual | Android model, and that the mini is the cheapest iPhone in | the 13 line. I know a few people who went for the mini | because it was marginally cheaper. | tomjakubowski wrote: | Sorry to post off-topic but I've never heard it before. | Does chalking down mean the same thing as chalking up? | dareiff wrote: | Yes, both -- writing something with chalk on slate. | sydthrowaway wrote: | "Oh, the Mini sells better than all of the Pixels, but only | because of <complex set of reasons>" | w-ll wrote: | I went with the mini because the new SE is fraking bigger | with less screen. The mini is just about the limit of what | i want to put in my pocket. If they get any bigger, im | going watch with cell and leaving these phablets at home. | beambot wrote: | NRE costs on a phone are easily measured in the $Millions. | Your niche has to either (a) have enough volume to dilute | those costs; or (b) be willing to pay a _lot_ more per unit | to cover them. | | It's not a "bad thing" about HN or American perceptions -- | it's economic reality: it just isn't cost effective for the | big incumbents to pursue, and it's (likely) beyond the scope | of a grass-roots, Kickstarter-style effort. | conradev wrote: | SUVs and trucks getting bigger over the time is a direct result | of regulation: https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/10/how- | cafe-killed-co... | Archelaos wrote: | > "oh phones are too big I just want something simple". That is | a valid sentiment that I think is shared by basically no | average consumer. For a lot of people, phones are their primary | computing devices, so a big screen is nice there. Bigger phones | allow for more battery capacity. | | My way of dealing with it is two phones. Besides my smartphone, | I still use my more than ten-year-old Nokia when I do not want | to take the big smartphone with me. Of course, it only has | phone, SMS and a clock. But I usually do not need anything else | when I go for a walk or meet up with friends. I just want to be | reachable in case there is a problem. | | Its old battry still lasts quite a long time, and I have it | switched off most of the time anyway. So I can go 7+ days | without recharging. | nsonha wrote: | Do you still use your phone as a phone? Because I personally | stopped using the phone features long ago, and I suspected | many are in the same basket. So even for a minimalist/backup | device, it would still need to be a "smart" phone, for note | taking, calendar sync and what not. | mrweasel wrote: | If you hadn't included the link to Macrumors, I'd have guess | that the mini sells poorly because the iPhone SE is available | and much cheaper. Personally I really surprised that the SE | doesn't sell more. | ajmurmann wrote: | Anecdotally, I wanted a Mini, but the lack of top-end cameras | being available made me hesitant. I ended up buying a SE, | since the neither phone was exactly what I wanted, but the SE | was so much cheaper. | Beltalowda wrote: | The numbers on that site are a bit vague and I'm having a hard | time making out the chart due to the colours, but they still | sold millions of iPhone 13 Minis, right? Plus, you should | probably add up the mini + SE as well for "small(-ish) phone | demand". | | I think you can make a profitable niche selling smaller phones. | Most people don't want a 12" laptop either as they consider it | too small, but some people do and various companies still make | a profit designing and selling them. I don't quite understand | why it's so different for phones. | jazzyjackson wrote: | it's a sort of selection bias, it's only because of a niche | unmet need that people take to their blogs to complain - so the | only people clamoring are the one not getting what they want | | same way the universe is perfectly made for us because if it | wasn't we wouldn't be here, ya'know ? | | - Sent from my iPhone 13 mini | Dunedan wrote: | > Why would that form factor succeed in the Android space? | | Because it's not Apple selling them and Android smartphone | manufacturers operate with much lower margins. | | Take Motorola for example, which isn't even one of the 10 | largest smartphone manufacturers. They released ~30 different | smartphone models in the past year alone, so they apparently | make money, even if they don't sell millions of units per | model. | | Yet none of the models released in the past year has a height | shorter than 159mm or a weight lighter than 155g. | | I believe the reason why no smartphone manufacturer offers | small phones anymore is not because they want to, but rather | because there is some non-obvious reason why they can't. My | personal theory is because it's difficult to get proper display | panels for smaller phones nowadays. The fabs producing the | panels switched to larger sizes due to demand and efficiency, | which resulted in no smaller panels with up-to-date specs | (high-refresh rate, HDR, low power consumption, ...) to be | available. I'd appreciate if somebody could proof me wrong, as | that'd be quite a bummer otherwise. | ece wrote: | I think this is the main reason, and why only Apple can | afford to make a small slab phone. They can still make some | margin with 5% of a massive number, while others can't make | any. | | Foldables seem like a better compromise here, and hopefully | more like the zflip/razr get in this $700-800 range with | stock android, good cameras, and decent battery life. The | zflip 3 has been sold for $800, just give me stock android | and I'd be a buyer. I'd be ok with a slightly slower | processor if it means a better battery life, but within | 10-20% of a flagship. Between a $450 6.1 inch Pixel 6a, or a | $700-800 folding phone, it's going to be kind of tough to | compete with a smaller slab phone if it's going to have to | make more compromises to stay small. | | I'd love a Nexus 4 sized phone again, but these aren't bad | options, if you want small, go folding, or get a 6a. I'm sure | the mini is a good option if you're ok with iOS. | dont__panic wrote: | Foldables are a crappy solution. I _do not want_ a tablet. | I have no desire to watch videos on my phone, and I don 't | need a huge screen for any of the things I do on my phone | regularly -- text, listen to music, occasionally browse HN | and reddit, take photos. I understand that they fold up to | essentially become weird-aspect ratio very thick phones... | but that's not desirable for me either, especially at the | foldable price point of ~$1000+. | ece wrote: | The zflip/razr foldables have smaller screens, and the | zflip can be had for sub-$1000. | duxup wrote: | Hopefully they just go to an every other year selling cycle on | the mini or something like that. | UI_at_80x24 wrote: | I agree with you 100% I am knocking on 50 years of age, but I | have the eyes of an 80 year old! I'd LOVE to be able to use a | 9" tablet as my primary phone. | | I have a plethora of screens available to me, including a PC as | my primary computing device; but when I'm on the go I need a | _larger_ screen not a smaller one. | masklinn wrote: | There are two big issues with SFF, really: | | - people tend to correlate size and price, and by default the | correlation is direct (for some things it's inverse), so at | similar capabilities (and thus prices) consumers will tend to | go with the larger version | | - for a smartphone specifically, there's a direct relationship | between battery size and device size, and battery life is a | _really valuable_ convenience | | The iPhone 13 mini has a 2400 mAh battery, the 13 has 3200. 33% | more battery capacity is _a lot_ , and at 2400mAh I don't think | the mini doesn't survive an entire day of relatively heavy use | without a charge. | kuschku wrote: | > The iPhone 13 mini has a 2400 mAh battery, the 13 has 3200. | 33% more battery capacity is a lot, and at 2400mAh I don't | think the mini doesn't survive an entire day of relatively | heavy use without a charge. | | So make it 3mm thicker? | d3nj4l wrote: | _Every_ iPhone person I know has complained about the 13 | Pro being significantly thicker and heavier than the | previous models. Literally, things like "it feels like a | brick in my hand." Making phones thicker/heavier is an HN | meme that is completely out of touch with what normies | want. Consider that for most people, the phone is their | primary device, and one they _hold in their hand_ for ~6h a | day. | MobiusHorizons wrote: | one of the reasons newer iphones "feel like a brick" is | that they transitioned to heavier materials (stainless | steel instead of aluminum) and because the corners are | now squared. rounding corners often has the effect of | making things seem thinner as well as usually making | things more pleasant to hold. I agree with you that these | users probably don't want a thicker iphone, but I would | bet if you focused on perceived bulkiness in the | industrial design, you could sneek in a slightly larger | battery and still give the impression of a less bulky | device. | tomtheelder wrote: | Your anecdote vs my anecdote here, but I have never, not | even one time, heard someone complain about the thickness | or weight of an iPhone. I highly doubt the average user | would even notice let alone care if you made the device a | bit thicker. | giaour wrote: | This would probably be a dealbreaker for a lot of people. | Unihertz makes small android phones that are on the thicker | side, and I've been hesitant to buy one because of their | girth (despite there not being any alternative small | android phones on the market). | masklinn wrote: | There's "thicker" and there's "thick". | | The iphone 13 is 7.65mm. The Unihertz Jelly is 16.5. | | Apple hasn't made a phone thicker than 10mm since the | 3GS, and that was 12.3 (up from the original 2G's 11.6 | because of the rounded plastic back vs flat aluminum). | Dunedan wrote: | > for a smartphone specifically, there's a direct | relationship between battery size and device size, and | battery life is a really valuable convenience | | As the largest consumer of energy is the display of a | smartphone, you don't need the same battery size to get the | same runtime in a smaller phone. Also by increasing the depth | of the smartphone by just 1-2 millimeters you can offset the | smaller area available for the battery. | masklinn wrote: | > As the largest consumer of energy is the display of a | smartphone, you don't need the same battery size to get the | same runtime in a smaller phone. | | The battery capacity grows much faster than the display | energy consumption, and it's not even a fight: at otherwise | equivalent hardware, the larger phone has always had better | battery life than the smaller one in every iPhone | generation. | | The minis both suffered significant criticism due to | battery life issues, compared to their larger sibling. | | > Also by increasing the depth of the smartphone by just | 1-2 millimeters you can offset the smaller area available | for the battery. | | You can do the same on both smaller and larger form factors | so that's not an advantage of the SFF phones. | | And much to my dismay Apple remains very much not a fan of | that: after having increased the phone depth to long- | forgotten heights of 8.3mm (a chonk not seen since the 4S's | 9.3), it's been reduced back down to 7.65 in the 13 (up a | hair from the 12's 7.4). I fear an eventual return to the | dark days of the 6S/7 and their 7.1mm you could shave with | (but couldn't pick your phone off of the table for lack of | ability to grip the thing without using your fingernails to | pry it off). | ece wrote: | > The battery capacity grows much faster than the display | energy consumption, and it's not even a fight: at | otherwise equivalent hardware, the larger phone has | always had better battery life than the smaller one in | every iPhone generation. | | As an example, the Z5 Compact had a 2700mah battery in | basically something ~1mm thicker than a 13 mini, which | has a ~2400mah battery. The Z5 Compact is also a 7 year | old phone, which didn't have wireless charging. | andjd wrote: | > So, by all accounts, the iPhone mini has been an extremely | slow seller. | | This narrative is cited a lot, and fueled rumors that Apple | would kill the mini for iPhone 13. They didn't. So clearly it's | profitable enough for them even though it's a comparatively | low-volume product. | | I think the issue with small form factor on Android is whether | too many apps will have broken UI on such a small screen. | Software support has been the issue with other innovative | android phones, such as the LG Wing and even the original | Samsung Fold. | newaccount74 wrote: | > fueled rumors that Apple would kill the mini for iPhone 13. | They didn't. | | Apple plans pretty far ahead and moves slowly. When a phone | goes on sale (like the iPhone 12 mini) the successor is | already pretty far along in the pipeline, and I think it's | unlikely they would cancel the successor based on a few weeks | of sales data. They would at least wait until after | christmas, at which point the 13 mini was probably already | almost ready, at which point it probably doesn't make sense | to cancel it anymore. | | So if Apple nixes a product because it lacks demand, I would | expect that to be after two years of sales. The decision | might have been made already after the first year of iPhone | 12 mini, but the decision would not affect the iPhone 13 | lineup, only the iPhone 14 lineup. | | You could see this slow product cycle when Apple failed to | jump on the big phone trend. When the iPhone 5 came out, they | underestimated the market for huge phones, and it took them | two years to course correct and jump on the phablet bandwagon | with the 6/6+. (And they had a phantastic quarter when they | did since everyone has been waiting for a big iPhone for two | years) | michaelt wrote: | _> So, by all accounts, the iPhone mini has been an extremely | slow seller._ | | Well, it's up against the iPhone SE, which has the same size, | same weight and the same processor. [1] | | [1] | https://www.apple.com/uk/iphone/compare/?modelList=iphone13m... | porcc wrote: | Not the same size, the comparisons are misleading as both | those phones look small compared to the 13 max. The SE has a | form factor that matches many Android phones, small-phoners | (like me) want to go smaller than that if possible. | | https://www.phonearena.com/phones/size/Apple- | iPhone-12-mini,... | | I had the previous SE from years back and it's still my | preferred size, the current mini is significantly bigger than | it. | | As an aside, I had to switch to the 12 mini as the old SE | started becoming unusable due to its age. I did switch to a | Pixel 4a temporarily but that was too big for what I wanted | and traded it in as soon as I could. | Kon-Peki wrote: | I have the 13 Mini. Multiple people have asked me what it was | and then commented that they wish they knew about it when they | got their current phone. | | I think sales are probably limited significantly by the | marketing plan of both Apple and the carriers that sell phones | - I'm sure that the larger phones are more profitable. | krony wrote: | Agreed. I love my 12 Mini, and my SE's before that. I'm also | anti-case so the phone looks extra small compared to most. | Fun to have someone take our photo with the phone, cause they | always ask how ancient it is and are shocked to hear it is | newer than the phone they have! Non-existent marketing | doesn't help | hombre_fatal wrote: | When I bought the 13 Mini, it wasn't even an option on their | /iphone landing page. I only saw it when I clicked into the | store. | | Edit: Yup, it's nowhere to be seen on apple.com homepage. | They don't push it at all. | hn_throwaway_69 wrote: | >people just like big stuff | | I'm inclined to think that applies more to Americans than | people generally. Europeans and Australians can be quite | content with smaller vehicles, smaller properties, and quite | frankly smaller lifestyles. | madeofpalk wrote: | > Europeans and Australians | | Australians will jump at the largest, cheapest Soniq TV JB | Hi-Fi sells. Likewise (with 'local' brands) in the UK. | serial_dev wrote: | I don't think it's as much a culture difference as you think, | more like the environment where we use the cars. | | I'm from Europe, living in bigger European city, and I have a | small car (3-door RAV4). I bought it so I can drive and park | easily in the city and go up hills and mountains when I leave | the city once a month. | | And if I'm honest, that is the best car I could afford. I see | lots of rich people with bigger and bigger SUVs cruising in | the city in Germany: G wagons, BMWs, Audis, Volkswagen | Touaregs, Porsche Cayennes everywhere. | | I went on a road trip in the US, rented an SUV that would be | huge and impractical here, but there, it actually felt small. | The roads were wide, traffic wasn't bad, parking was easy. I | loved it. | | If I lived in the countryside in Europe where I need to | transport stuff for my ranch/farm (and if I could afford it), | I'd definitely consider buying a pickup truck. | | The same goes for properties. The reason why I lived in a | 30sqm apartment with my wife was that is all I could afford | while living in the city, close to good job opportunities. I | would have been obviously happier if I could have a 300sqm | house. | tasuki wrote: | > I would have been obviously happier if I could have a | 300sqm house. | | This is not necessarily true, though something people often | believe. | btbuildem wrote: | Didn't the oversized phone craze originate in Asia? | ryukafalz wrote: | American here with a Smart Fortwo, but I may be an outlier. | Dead simple to park in the city though, and I hear lots of | people complaining about parking, so... I don't know why | everyone buys those enormous cars here. :) | iforgotpassword wrote: | But admittedly here in Germany SUVs are also on the rise, | even though we have that "environmentally conscious" | reputation. | hn_throwaway_69 wrote: | Admittedly also on the rise in Australia, but they're | nowhere near the size of pickup trucks that occupy American | highways. | Etheryte wrote: | I don't think I've ever heard anyone talk of Germans as | environmentally conscious. Car culture is usually one of | the first things that comes up when someone talks about | Germany. | danieldk wrote: | I have lived in Germany for five years and this is | absolutely true. Even many students have cars, which was | completely surreal/absurd to me, since I didn't have any | fellow students in The Netherlands with a car (only | bikes). I'd cycle to work every day (22 km for the round | trip), I'd regularly get comments from Germans that I was | crazy to cycle that distance through all weather. | | Watching German politics more closely during those years, | I have seen that choices between: is better for car | owners, is better for something else, gets decided in | favor of _is better for car owners_ 90% of the times. | Heck, even some members of the Green Party are very cozy | with the car industry (e.g. Kretschmann). | tasuki wrote: | > I'd cycle to work every day (22 km for the round trip), | I'd regularly get comments from Germans that I was crazy | to cycle that distance through all weather. | | The Germans probably don't know that with 2cm of snow, | all the other means of transport, including the Amsterdam | metro, stop working. So bicycle it is. I loved my 25km | (round trip) bike commute when I lived there, it was such | a great way to clear my head before/after work. | Tijdreiziger wrote: | I wish we still got any snow to speak of... | Tade0 wrote: | > I'd regularly get comments from Germans that I was | crazy to cycle that distance through all weather. | | It is a bit unusual outside of the Netherlands and | Denmark. | | I tried to cycle to work 8km or so and it was fine until | I had to cross a slope. And since this slope was etched | by the nearby river, it went through the whole city, so | there wasn't any way around it. | | Took all the fun out of it honestly, especially during | heatwaves. | iforgotpassword wrote: | Sure car culture is big, but does that mean people like | big cars? | | Also curious where you're from that you never heard of | this. | Etheryte wrote: | I think your comment is a good example of the disconnect | in how you and I seem to mean different things when we | say environmentally conscious. In my opinion, driving a | car every day isn't environmentally conscious, regardless | the size of the car. These days, the difference between | two modern cars is not that big, they're both still big | polluters. You don't need to drive a 5-person car to work | alone every day, nor to the store, nor to the gym, but it | is what very many people in Germany do. Whether that car | is big or small does not make that big of a difference | when you compare it to the alternative of taking the | public transport, cycling or walking. I understand the | alternatives are not as comfortable, but that is a matter | of choice -- it is a choice to build cities in a way that | favors cars over pedestrians and cyclists. | | A simple example of what I mean is traffic lights. I've | lived in many European countries, including Germany, and | travelled a very fair bit in the rest. In Germany, | traffic lights are green for cars for a long time and | green for pedestrians a very short time (feel free to | measure this at any traffic light in your city). In | countries where infrastructure is planned around humans, | it's the other way around. | | Cycling is another example of this. Germany doesn't have | "bad weather for cycling". People cycle to work in winter | in Helsinki and don't bat an eye. The difference is | infrastructure. Helsinki has not only built the roads, | lights and the rest around it, but they also ensure it's | in good condition. When it snows, bike paths often get | cleaned before car roads. It's a matter of choice. I | bring up Helsinki because it's easier to compare. | Netherlands and the like are so far ahead everyone else | in humane cities that the comparisons are hard to make. | Helsinki is a good example because their developments are | recent and go to show that you can choose to live a | different way. | danieldk wrote: | I have lived in Southern Germany for ~5 years and lived | in The Netherlands before and after. Germans most | definitely (at least in the south) have bigger cars on | average. | 0des wrote: | Yall are the home of VW right? | hef19898 wrote: | And those SUVs still are relatively small compared to US- | style pick-ups. | [deleted] | 0des wrote: | Weird, all the europeans who visit me in the US talk so much | about how great it is to have this much space. | soco wrote: | While the americans visiting me in Europe complain about | the cramped streets. One of these is polite. | bee_rider wrote: | That's weird, I'd expect them to celebrate the | walkability (never been there but I've heard it is a | major advantage to your towns and cities). | carlhjerpe wrote: | It's probably easier to notice the upsides of "loads of | space" without living there, while the downsides are more | obvious when you live there. | gpvos wrote: | It's nice to have that space for your house, but on the | other hand your kids can't go to school by themselves, and | neither can you jump on your bike for some shopping and be | back in ten minutes. | ajmurmann wrote: | Bigger houses and more (sometimes mandatory) parking also | means everything is further apart and making cars more | needed even when going between stores. | mrweasel wrote: | Right, it's not that we don't want bigger houses, | apartments or cars, we just can't justify it in terms of | cost. | | I'd love to get my wife a bigger car, so she wouldn't be | scared of driving in the snow, but just buying it would be | three times the price (or more) compared to the small car | she's currently driving. | 0des wrote: | Plenty of room down south, we'd be happy to have you | both. | Bud wrote: | Plenty of room, but no women's rights to speak of and a | lot of other unlivable factors involved. | jason0597 wrote: | Where's the visa? :) | d3nj4l wrote: | China _loves_ the Pro Max - it outsold the Pro there [1], and | my understanding (based largely on hearsay, so take it with a | grain of salt) is that they generally love large phones over | there. | | 1: https://www.thenationalnews.com/business/technology/2022/0 | 1/... | LeifCarrotson wrote: | Similarly, the F150 is the best selling vehicle in the US. #2 | is the Silverado, and #3 is the Dodge Ram. | | Clearly, this whole 'sedan' concept is a failed form factor, | every manufacturer should only make pickup trucks. Why shoot | for less than the #1 market spot? | dont__panic wrote: | Funnily, cars suffer from this same exact issue, but worse! | Just like expanding phone screen size leads to suboptimal | software on small screen sizes that devs don't target any | more... expanding car size leads to safety compromises for | sedans. If my 2000s Civic gets T-boned by a 2022 F150, I'll | probably die, simply because the 2022 F150 will crush my car | like a tank rolling over a tin can. When I try to drive | around in my sedan at night, I'm constantly blinded because | truck manufacturers don't account for low seat heights any | more with beam cutoffs. | | Who would buy a sedan any more when you're screwed over this | way? With phones and vehicles, we're stuck in this prisoner's | dilemma situation where larger sizes lead to less | desirability of small sizes, and the cycle repeats over and | over again. | | Same thing happens with public transit/car usage -- as more | people use cars, public transit thins out, deals with more | traffic on the roads, and becomes scarier because there are | fewer "normal" people on public transit to make you feel safe | from crime. | | Curious if there's an research on how to escape from this | kind of death spiral -- my suspicion is that the only real | way out is regulation, because otherwise there's no way to | overcome the self-reinforcing impact of these decisions. | InvaderFizz wrote: | Ford has phased out sedans[0] for the US market and are | instead chasing higher margin trucks and SUVs. The exception | is the Mustang. | | 0: https://www.motorbiscuit.com/ford-exec-says-this-is-why- | it-s... | E4YomzYIN5YEBKe wrote: | Side note, It is just RAM now and not Dodge Ram. RAM is a | brand under Stellantis just like Dodge, Citroen, or JEEP. | gs17 wrote: | Isn't that sort of what Ford decided (except they also still | make SUVs)? AFAIK, they stopped making sedans for most | markets. | [deleted] | bloqs wrote: | Every female member of my family has complained about devices | being too big. Its clearly based on anecdotal evidence. | | People with smaller hands want to be able to operate the phone | fully with one hand. | d00k wrote: | Don't see the same with my family, girlfriend has a 13 Pro | Max, mum and sister have the 11 Pro Max. | Gigachad wrote: | From what I have seen. The average person would rather two | hand their phone than have a smaller one. | drewzero1 wrote: | Not only smaller hands, but smaller pockets. | The_Colonel wrote: | Most women I know never carried their phones in pockets, | but in their handbags. Even in the tiny phones era. | reaperducer wrote: | _Every female member of my family has complained about | devices being too big._ | | My wife's solution to iPhones being too big was to upgrade | all of her handbags and to buy flouncy dresses with pockets. | | Wanna trade families? Please? | IAmEveryone wrote: | What kind of illoyal loser would denounce their wife in | public, offer to "trade" her like some property, all over | some completely meaningless bullshit cliche complaint about | their choices of style? | reaperducer wrote: | _What kind of illoyal loser would denounce their wife in | public, offer to "trade" her like some property, all over | some completely meaningless bullshit cliche complaint | about their choices of style?_ | | Wow, angry much? I suggest contacting your local mental | health crisis hotline before you turn your internet rage | into something people actually care about. In the United | States, just dial 988. | | Failing that, try getting a sense of humor. They're nice. | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henny_Youngman | [deleted] | jwagenet wrote: | My girlfriend liked the mini, but didn't get it partially | because it doesn't feature the 3 cameras. As long as the mini | is positioned as a down brand phone, even for technical | reasons, some of the interested market is excluded | skavi wrote: | One thing I don't think people appreciate is just how | impressively compact the Minis are. Every bit of space is | used up. I doubt any Android OEM (with the exception of | maybe Samsung) could get make a comparable device. | | Unless they used something akin to a laptop webcam, there | simply isn't enough space for a third camera. | rtkwe wrote: | There's just not enough space for all the random features | people want in a small form factor phone and keep it thin- | ish. The Pro Max camera group alone is 1/5-1/4 of the back | real estate on the 12 mini. | derbOac wrote: | I don't know. I'm one of these people who wants a smaller | phone. Not tiny but definitely wanted a smaller one. I know a | couple of people who feel the same, bought an iPhone mini, and | when I was looking for my last phone came across reviews | specifically targeting this issue. | | I don't use iPhones so don't really know very much, but my | instinct is that it falls into this bundling fallacy about | product characteristics (there might be another term for it; I | don't know). It goes something like this: | | Companies X, Y, and Z all market products with unusual | characteristic A. But there's all sorts of other things about | it that make it undesirable or less desirable, so the consumer | is faced with trade-offs. _In the context of choosing between | desirable characteristic A, but also undesirable | characteristics B and C_ , they choose another product because | the cost of B and C is greater than the benefit of A. | | But then the companies all conclude "no one wants A" because | they half-assed the product, not realizing that it wasn't A | that was the problem, it was the B and C they released it with. | | I see this all the time. With clothing for example, they'll | make a garment out of really nice material A, but then release | it with this weird design that doesn't really appeal to anyone | except a stereotype. With tech I've noticed that they don't | really make it available at all sometimes. So there might be | product X, but you can't really find it anywhere. With a phone, | hypothetically, it might be "my phone broke this morning and I | need one ASAP and all the brick and mortar shops around me only | carry these specific things and not the iPhone mini." | | Anyway, I don't know the iPhone mini from anything, but the | bundling fallacy is so prevalent in these situations I'm | skeptical. I know I faced this a bit when buying my last | Android phone: the next smaller down, which I preferred based | on size, and which wasn't even "small", wasn't that much | smaller but also had other downsides. | | Sometimes I almost feel like companies sometimes intentionally | sabotage experimental products just not to deal with the | headache of supporting more options in their supply chain. | | Also, sometimes there are things that don't sell to a huge | market, but do sell, and have a very devoted following. Smaller | phones might be like that. In my experience sometimes these | "devoted markets" sometimes expand into larger ones later (for | example, everyone realizes 3 years from now they can't fit | their phones in their pockets anymore and that it doesn't | matter if they have a nice big phone to move their fingers | around on if they have no place to put it). | qwertfisch wrote: | > Sometimes I almost feel like companies sometimes | intentionally sabotage experimental products just not to deal | with the headache of supporting more options in their supply | chain. | | Except companies like Samsung throw out dozens of new models | per year, which all differentiate only marginally, and none | of them gets a SFF while maintaining higher quality of | features (i.e. no cheap phone with 720 display and such). | | Sometimes they get it right, like with the Samsung A40 from | 2019, only to not pursue the sales for a true successor. | Heck, me and a lot of my friends and relatives bought an A40 | because of its size and fantastic display. | recursivedoubts wrote: | I have given up: the iphone mini (which I own) is gargantuan. | | There are a few glimmers of hope around the edges. Palm was | interesting but too small (the primary problem was the battery, | not the screen size). Unihertz is doing some interesting stuff in | the small phone arena, but their stuff is either too small and | thick (the jelly) or too big (titan). Their styling is also a bit | funky in a 90's tech vibe sort of way that I'm not a huge fan of. | | What I want is an iphone 4-sized phone that I can keep in my | pocket w/o noticing and that provides the basics of smart phones. | Even better if it could be an e-ink screen so I don't have to | charge it very often. | | I have accepted that I am a market of one. | code_duck wrote: | I miss the iPhone 5. That was a great size and shape. Same | width as the 4, just a bit longer of course. | nicwolff wrote: | The "1st gen" SE is the same size as the 5, still available | from e.g. Amazon for $100-$200, and runs the current iOS very | well if a little slowly. | redisman wrote: | I ran those for many years but unfortunately the batteries | are old and seem to only last a year these days | porcc wrote: | I'm with you! The litephone 2 is the closest we've gotten but | at our market-size the software stability will likely be | lacking. | recursivedoubts wrote: | a market of two, then | | i have a litephone for my kids and it's too minimalistic, I'd | still like maps, etc | | if we could combine the styling of the palm, but a bit bigger | and with much better battery w/ and e-ink display and decent | battery life, I'd be in heaven | danstiner wrote: | market of three | | The litephone is too basic and the HiSense A5 etc do not | work on US networks. | | I looked at building a 5.2" e-ink phone for the US market | and did some fun mock-ups, but it would be a huge | undertaking with my limited hardware background. Smaller | phones just have fundamental limits due to battery size | that are difficult to work around, and Android has | basically no e-ink support as it's such a niche type of | display for a phone. | recursivedoubts wrote: | surely at some point a viable e-ink phone will be | released in the US | | surely :| | MiddleEndian wrote: | I like the idea of the litephone except it's the opposite of | what I use a phone for. I don't care much about phone calls, | they're mostly useless except that my doorbell is hooked up | to my phone (which is of course set to silent lol) and | sometimes I need to talk to banks or recruiters. I want maps, | chat apps, email, lyft, a browser, etc. but also to disable | 99% of notifications 99% of the time. | | Right now I still use my Palm Phone (PVG100) and I'm bummed | that it looks like they won't release another one. Gonna use | it until it's impossible for it to function in the modern | world. | dmitrygr wrote: | > Cameras must be as good as Pixel 5 | | I know that you think you are setting an attainable bar, But that | is not the case. Most phones you can buy today would not deliver | this. A lot of it has to do with computational photography (code | Google will not license to you) and per-device tuning done at the | factory (details of which Google will not give you) | abhaynayar wrote: | I want a notch-less phone. Where did they all go after 2019? | mg wrote: | If you like the punch-hole design, then there are quite a few | options. | JohnJamesRambo wrote: | Please make an android phone the size of the old iPhone SE. I | want out of the Apple ecosystem but there are no phones this size | on android I can find. | didip wrote: | So... there are tons of small Chinese Android phones. Why not get | one of them, wipe it clean, and install whatever you want? | rplnt wrote: | It's an option only if you don't want a good camera, don't need | it to be fast, don't care that screen scratches, etc.. | qwertfisch wrote: | Are there really? It's not just the size, but also the weight: | cheaper components have larger weight. At least for me that is | a dealbreaker. | | Then you want the display to be small but of high resolution | (and quality!), so 1080 pixels in width is necessary to have at | least 320 to 350 dpi. My Samsung A40, which I bought for 220EUR | in 2019. has 440dpi (with 1080 pixels width), and this is | marvellous because I cannot see single pixels anymore. | | Third reason is the processor. There are still enough cheap | ones built-in, that cause stutter and pauses. | | I don't want just a small phone, I want a nice and reasonably- | priced small phone. It was sold for less than 250EUR, so even | in smaller batches it should be possible to reach a 500EUR | mark. | loloquwowndueo wrote: | "Price: $700-800 (again, we have no alternatives so we should be | willing to pay a bit more!)" | | Yeah, not going to happen - people in general are NOT going to | pay _more_ for a _smaller_ phone. Even the iPhone mini is cheaper | than the full size models. | pmontra wrote: | I'm not paying more than $300 for any phone, small or big. My | ideal size was the Xperia X Compact, but a little bit thinner | and with no bezels. Or the phone I got after that one, a | Samsung A40 but 1 inch shorter. | dont__panic wrote: | I think it's possible, if marketed correctly. I'd 100% pay more | for a smaller phone, I'm desperate at this point. Imagine a | campaign advertising a phone that doesn't get in the way when | you work out at the gym, or go for a bike ride, or when you're | doing yardwork. A phone that you can use on the subway, or | while walking around. A phone that doesn't constantly suck you | into Facebook or TikTok or whatever social media you use. | upsidesinclude wrote: | Samsung S10e | | Already there and has probably every spec that's listed | Animats wrote: | There's the "lightphone."[1] Stuck at "pre-order" since 2019. | | There's this little Android smartphone from Shenzhen.[2] $104 in | quantity 2, $74 in quantity 1000. You can get it from Amazon for | about twice as much. | | [1] https://www.thelightphone.com/ | | [2] https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Small- | Cellphone-3-0-I... | Pasorrijer wrote: | Closest is the Sony Xperia 5 or 10 series I think... My wife | loves hers and I'm going to be getting one next. | m000 wrote: | For a phone that is not intended for heavy use (cramped screen, | average screen-on time), 8GB of RAM seems like a pricey choice. | | Also, stock Android can be a mixed blessing. My guess this is | mostly used as synonymous to "no bloatware". But stock Android | doesn't necessarily translate to a better user experience, or to | software updates for a longer time. | kazinator wrote: | It's funny to read some young person reiterating the desirable | properties of small phones, completely oblivious to how smaller | was universally better in cellphones phones before the smartphone | era. | | http://www.mobilephonehistory.co.uk/nokia/nokia.php | felixnm wrote: | I bought my kids the first iPhone SE back in 2016 and they're | still using it due to its size. I also think it's the perfect | size and would love to have a Pixel phone with the same | dimensions. I currently use the Pixel 5. | Sohum wrote: | Fellow small phone fan. I've gotten a lot of mileage out of the | smaller OnePlus phones designed for kids. | znpy wrote: | I gave up and bought the iphone se 3 as soon as it shipped. | | I finally have a small phone again, and I'm liking ios. | TedShiller wrote: | Your dream Android phone is an iPhone | mustaflex wrote: | I have the same issue, I have big hands and going from a pixel 2 | to a pixel 6 has been a nightmare. I can't use the pixel 6 with a | single handle. | thanatos519 wrote: | How about even smaller? :D | | https://www.techradar.com/reviews/unihertz-atom-xl-rugged-sm... | | I used to have a Sony Xperia X Compact and when its SIM slot | stopped working, I went looking for a new phone and there was | nothing of that size. I got the Ulefone Armor X7 Pro which was | basically the same phone with a worse camera, less shovelware, | and built to last. Still fits in my pocket, more or less. | t0bia_s wrote: | I absolutely agree with size. I'm long time Samsung A5 2017 user | because Lineage OS compatibility and size. | | However I'm refuse to pay more than 200 USD for phone. It is | device that could be easily broken, lost or stolen. I also do not | need super specs. I mean... It is ridiculous how basic purpose of | phone (calls, messages, emails, contacts...) shifted to machine | that has betters specs than laptops. Of course quite a lot o | people simply switch from laptop to high end phone, but what | about those who need reliable phone for basic communication and | don't want to pay for features that don't actually need (I never | used front camera, NFC, big screen for gaming, etc.)? | | Maybe I'm old fashioned but for me: * phone = communication, | calendar, notes, GPS * pictures = camera * gaming, work = desktop | Ensorceled wrote: | My wife just bought the iPhone mini for all of these reasons, but | she is definitely in a minority. | | The main use cases for smart phones are texting, email, social | media Twitter/Facebook/Whatsapp/etc., general computing (banking | etc.), games, video. | | All of these use cases are made better by a larger screen size. | christilut wrote: | Totally agree! I'm still on the Pixel 4a, starting to look at an | upgrade but I don't think there is one. Luckily I don't demand | too much from my phone, but making better pictures would be nice. | notorandit wrote: | Me too! | m1sta_ wrote: | Sony 5ii/iii | gallerdude wrote: | For me, the people who want smaller phones are the textbook | example of a vocal minority. I've read so many Hacker News and | r/apple threads about how people love and miss phones you can use | with one hand. And then every few years a phone manufacturer will | try it, and it won't sell at all. | | I almost think people with small phones just underestimate how | much they'd be able to adjust to a larger phone. | ncallaway wrote: | > I almost think people with small phones just underestimate | how much they'd be able to adjust to a larger phone. | | I switched from a large Android device to an iPhone Mini | because I preferred the size. Before the switch, I had used | pretty much only larger phones. | | So, at least for me as a data point, your assumption is wildly | wrong. | gallerdude wrote: | This is good to know. It could also be that people with large | phones underestimate how much they'd be able to adjust to | smaller phones. | dchichkov wrote: | There is Palm. It looks a bit like the first iPhone, but the size | of a credit card. | | https://palm.com/pages/product | | Regretfully, it filled with a lot of carrier spyware (originally | Verizon) that eats the battery in the background. If cleaned up, | the battery life gets much better (up to two days). But, after a | month or so, for me the phone for some reason factory-reset | itself. Not sure, if it was an update or initiated by the carrier | or a hardware glitch or something else. | | Nice, clean looking, unlocked, very inexpensive hardware (<$100 | refurbished), but very poor android build. | [deleted] | hnburnsy wrote: | Check out Unihertz, they have a variety of unloved formats | including small form factor and physical keyboards. | | https://www.unihertz.com/collections/smartphones/products/je... | [deleted] | this_is_eline wrote: | It is kinda old (2019), but Samsung S10e is imho _the_ small | (android) phone. | | 5.8" 1080x2280 AMOLED display, with a tiny hole punch front | camera; Snapdragon 855, 6/8gm RAM, 128/256gb of storage (with | support for microsd card); two rear cameras (wide and ultrawide) | with great image quality(imho); ip68; gorilla glass 5; 3.5mm | jack; usb type c; wireless charging + reverse wireless charging; | fingerprint on power button (side mounted); ~4hours SOT | (3100mAh); it comes with samsung's bloated os but you can put | custom rom (i checked support for /e/ os and its supported, but i | belive there are other options); ~400 euros | Jiro wrote: | I had to replace my phone because of the AT&T 3g shutdown and | the fact that no company is going to pay AT&T to approve their | old phone models. I got a S10E for pretty much the same reason: | small, SD card, headphone jack, and resolution at least | 1080x1920. | | I tried searching for a modern phone that still has all this | and there's nothing. The best I could find is a current | Motorola phone; most of them still have jacks and SD cards and | some have reasonable resolution, but they're all large size. | Some of them also support the FM radio chip if you want that. | sdflhasjd wrote: | I'm going to be upset when I'll have to replace my S10e with | something larger and without a headphone jack. | | Samsung's UI has come a long way, now I actually prefer OneUI | over stock Android. | this_is_eline wrote: | I just wish s10e has replaceable battery... (even tho that | would prob ruin ip68 and design :) ) | nfriedly wrote: | It's not impossible to replace the battery - https://www.if | ixit.com/Guide/Samsung+Galaxy+S10e+Battery+Rep... - it's | just a bit of a pain. | | And, yeah, it probably does compromise the waterproofing. | makosdv wrote: | Yeah, I just replaced mine a couple weeks ago. It wasn't | hard, but it wasn't easy either. | lbrito wrote: | Wow, is sub 6" considered small nowadays? | | What have we done | abruzzi wrote: | My comment exactly. We've really defined "small" up! I'm still | running my 1st get iPhone SE, because I've yet to see a phone | that can replace it. With a 4 inch screen, I can just barely | use it one-handed. | amyjess wrote: | Thankfully, much of this is because of edge-to-edge display | technology allowing for larger screens in the same size | chassis. My Pixel 4a with a 5.8" screen has the same 69mm | width as my old Nexus 5 with a 4.95" screen, and it's | _considerably_ less wide than my Nexus 5X or Moto X4 with | their 5.2 " screens (especially the X4, that thing was way | too wide and was intensely uncomfortable to hold... I | actually had to get a case for that one, and I was miserable | the entire time I owned it). | dont__panic wrote: | Some of it is. But phone chassis have slowly creeped up | since 2012 or so, a few mm per year, to the point where | there really aren't any phones in the small category any | more. IMO the Nexus 5 is larger than I'd like -- something | the size of the Nexus 5 _screen_ is closer to ideal. I 've | been using the iPhone SE 2016 for years now, hoping for a | worthy successor, and the situation has only gotten worse | for many years running now. The Pixel 4a was the last phone | that came even close to meeting my requirements (one- | handable, fingerprint sensor, headphone jack), and it's | going to run out of security updates _next year_. | qwertfisch wrote: | So we better define a maximum phone width instead of a | maximum diagonal display size. The aspect ratio changed | from 16:9 to 19:9 or longer over the years, but the "extra" | display area is the space that was occupied by hardware | (sensor) keys for navigation, which you still had to tap | ... That leads to longer diagonal sizes per se. | | So phones are not really getting longer in aspect ratio | (except for some VERY long Sony phones), and they got more | display area because of less thick edges. Naturally the | mathematical diagonal size is larger, but that is a moot | measurement compared with older phones with their 16:9 | displays. | | I am comfortable with everything less than 70mm width, and | because the aspect ratio is kind of settled on 16:9 + | navigation keys (or 19:9 complete display), the length is | naturally restricted to ~150mm or less. | | My A40 has 5.9" but still only 142 to 69mm in size. It does | not feel like a 6" thing from 2017, and the reason is its | small width and weight. Unfortunately, most new phones have | width from 75+mm and weights of 190g or more. | izzydata wrote: | The Nexus 5X was the perfect size phone in my opinion. I'm | content with the Pixel 4a at the moment, but it is clearly too | tall to use with one hand for me. I have to shimmy it up and down | to reach the top and bottom. Which I suspect is the problem with | almost every phone these days. | bedast wrote: | I have an iPhone 12 mini. I switched to iPhone with the XR and | felt it was too big. My old Pixel 2 feels larger than the 12 mini | with it's 5" screen versus the 12 mini's 5.4", and that's because | it physically is overall larger. | | When the iPhone 12 lineup was announced, the main talking point | about the mini among reviewers and whatnot was how poor battery | life will be. To be honest, once I disabled the 5G (I'm not | anti-5G, I just don't need it most of the time), battery life is | fine. In fact, it's pretty phenomenal for the specs if you've had | any lengthy history with smartphones (my first LTE phone either | needed multiple charges per day, or I carried spare batteries). | | It's pretty easy to build an echo chamber that agrees smaller | phones are preferred and make it appear as though there's a | decent amount of us, but the simple fact is, people like us are | in the minority, and it shows in the iPhone sales. That's why | there's not going to be an iPhone 14 mini, and why the mini | design is probably going to be the next SE. And if you even look | at the SE sales numbers, they're still not great against other | iPhone models. | | On top of that, this audience, specifically, are probably not | going to be upgrading every generation, so there's going to be | gaps where we don't feed the machine/sales numbers to make it | look better. I will not buy an iPhone 13 mini. I will not buy an | iPhone 14. I probably will not even buy the next SE even if it's | an iPhone 13 mini with a newer SoC. So long as my 12 mini keeps | going, it'll continue to serve me. So I fail to contribute to the | sales numbers to make it look better. | NearAP wrote: | >> It's pretty easy to build an echo chamber that agrees | smaller phones are preferred and make it appear as though | there's a decent amount of us, but the simple fact is, people | like us are in the minority, and it shows in the iPhone sales. | | I'm not sure about that. This could be due to the | marketing/positioning i.e. Apple first switched to producing | bigger phones (with more features/power) which caused people to | buy these bigger phones (there were no smaller & newer phones). | | After some complaints, Apple produced a smaller version of | their phone but they market it as one with less features | (smaller battery, smaller processor, etc). | | If Apple devoted resources to producing smaller sized phones | with comparable features as the Pro, the statistics might be | different. To be clear, a larger phone will always have some | edge but the minis should not be clearly designed as a step | down version phone | bedast wrote: | > After some complaints, Apple produced a smaller version of | their phone but they market it as one with less features | (smaller battery, smaller processor, etc). | | iPhone 12 and 13 minis are the same hardware with smaller | screen and battery than their iPhone 12 and 13 (non-pro) | counterparts. Are you referring to the SE or something? Even | the SE has been getting upgraded processors with previous | generation screens, cameras, etc. | | The minis have been flagship specs in smaller packages. If | the smaller battery thing was to be a knock on Apple for | making it inferior, how do you suppose you fit a full size | iPhone 13 battery into that mini frame with all the other | internal hardware the same? | NearAP wrote: | ahh, you're right. I went back and compared the specs [1] | and the battery is the biggest difference. Somehow, the | marketing I always came across was for iPhone 13 and the | Pro. Don't believe I saw marketing for the mini. Cellphone | providers I checked (when I thought about upgrading) didn't | have the mini (12 or 13) upfront and center on their home | page. | | 1. https://www.apple.com/iphone/compare/?modelList=iphone13 | mini... | sircastor wrote: | I love my iPhone 12 Mini, and I was really disappointed when I | found out the mini line is likely being dropped with the next | generation (It's almost certain) | | Being very honest, I think the original iPhone was the right | size - through the iPhone 4. I appreciate that people wanted | larger screens, and larger screens accommodate larger | batteries, but I think the 3.5" screen of the early iPhones | made for a great size. | | Oh well. | bedast wrote: | Interestingly, the iPhone 4 is physically not much smaller | than the iPhone 12 mini, but has a significant screen size | bump. I was curious about this because my old Droid Eris had | a 3.2" screen and I was curious how it physically measured up | overall. It was slightly smaller than the iPhone 4. The idea | that I have something, now, that is not that much bigger, but | with so much more screen is super interesting because I had | wanted to go back down to something small like that, and this | is likely as close as I'll realistically get, and it's not | that bad! | | My suspicion is, based on various bits of info I've seen, | iPhone 14 won't see a mini and the next SE will be based on | the current mini. They have been upgrading the SoC in the SE | but not the camera nor the screen, and I bet they want to get | that bumped up to something more modern. So this form | factor/size may not be all that lost. Here's hoping, anyway. | Linda703 wrote: | baq wrote: | you can pry the iphone SE from my cold, dead hands. | | i've been in the anti-iphone group since the first iphone. | frankly, android has (and more importantly android phones have) | pissed me off more than apple and that's the primary reason of me | being an iphone convert now. | danirod wrote: | I miss my old Moto G1. Light and with a small form factor, and at | the same time it was one of the first phones that were cheap but | not low quality. | | It made a breakthrough in a market where you either had an | expensive Samsung or you dealt with cheap phones with very bad | specs. This was ages ago, fortunately today there are more phones | that are cheap but with acceptable specs. | littlecranky67 wrote: | Moto G1 had the perfect form factor, plus also the "rubber" | like back which I really loved. I have no idea why glas | surfaces on the back are a thing, I always have to use a phone | cover as else it would slip my hands. The rubber the Moto G1 | allowed for a safe and firm grip, that every phone should have | on the back. | ajot wrote: | +1, the MotoG had the perfect form factor. I'd love for a | 2022 phone with a sub 5" screen. | rootusrootus wrote: | I'm not sure how similar it was, but when I saw this post my | first thought was the original Moto X. Even today, I think I | might rate that as my favorite phone of all time. Perfect size, | flagship-ish specs, grippy texture without a case, etc. Then of | course the next generation made it huge. | volleygman180 wrote: | As an iPhone user, I've wanted to use an iPhone Mini ever since | they came out. It was hard to compromise on the camera, coming | from a Pro device, but I finally made the switch when the iPhone | 13 Mini debuted. | | Within 24 hours however, I was back at the Apple Store returning | it. What was the issue? Nothing wrong with the device at all - it | was everything I hoped it would be! Unfortunately, the issue was | with the apps instead. | | Developers have gotten so used to everyone being on bigger | devices. Since the Mini _lowered_ the standard size of a device | (and represented such a small audience), I found that most of my | apps had various UI bugs as they were written to target a regular | iPhone dimension or larger. In some cases, apps were unusable due | to the UI bugs. | | As an iOS engineer, I can also speak to the development side of | things. At the various places that I've worked, I can't say that | any testing was ever specifically done on a device smaller than | the smallest _regular_ iPhone (like an iPhone XS). Even our team | of QAs had all kinds of devices that they'd use and we had | automated UI testing, but an iPhone Mini was consistently | overlooked. | | Maybe the device will be better in the future, but until then, | the apps just aren't ready. | | Granted this is my experience with iPhones and iOS apps. Android | could very well be in a different place. I expect less out of the | app development on that platform, however, developers are also | more attuned to targeting smaller screen sizes, given how many | Android devices exist, so it could indeed be a better experience | if you find a device that you like. | djvdq wrote: | Interesting, can you give an example of such apps "not really | working" on iP Mini? I'm asking because my wife uses 12 Mini | and she never told a word about it. I'm also using it from time | to time in few apps and everything looks ok. | mikestew wrote: | I don't recall having UI trouble with a single app since | getting a 13 Mini some months ago, nor have I heard such from | my spouse. Would you have any examples? | | But for me and my house, pry that Mini from our cold, dead | hands. | j0057 wrote: | ZenFone 8 is passable and less than 6", but still too big for me. | sabas_ge wrote: | Isn't the PinePhone 6"? https://www.pine64.org/pinephonepro/ | richardwhiuk wrote: | 6" is iPhone 13 territory - iPhone 13 Mini is 5.4" | synergy20 wrote: | Our house wants small phones, we had Pixel 4a and 3(both size are | small) and converted the rest three to iphone mini and iphone SE. | over many years it does seem andriod phone has shorter life span | and iphone lasts longer, which is one more reason we converted | two andriod phones to iphones, in addition to the screen size | reason. | lcnmrn wrote: | You want a Pixel 5 or 6a. Set smallest width to 432dp from | developer settings. Check the result with mydevice.io to see 2.5x | pixel ratio. You got a iPhone Max resolution for the size of a | Mini. | grishka wrote: | I'd add a headphone jack to "must have". And I don't like these | bezel-less displays. Just give me a more modern HTC Desire S. Or | a first-gen iPhone SE that runs Android. | cheeze wrote: | And now you've made such a niche product that you and a few | HNers want it, and that's about it. | grishka wrote: | I believe that there is a non-negligible number of people for | whom their phone is a bit more than a communication device, | and most of the things they do online, they do on a computer. | | I don't understand the appeal of these notched/hole- | punched/rounded screens on phones. They solve no real | problems. They are a gimmick. | dti wrote: | > are easy to use one-handed without dropping | | Not necessarily. | | I bought an iPhone Mini expecting that it'd be comfortable to use | in a single hand like my previous Xperia phone of exactly the | same width. | | Unfortunately, it is not the case: the iPhone screen is very | close to the bottom edge, and to switch apps you need to move | your thumb to the very edge and then swipe up, which is rather | uncomfortable (or requires holding your phone very low, in which | case, you can't reach the top of the screen without changing your | grasp). Similarly, the keyboard is rather low and uncomfortable | to use from the otherwise most natural single-handed grasp. | giords wrote: | My opinion is that the demand for small phones will be satisfied | by foldable phones. | | I see that option more viable and effective. | DanHulton wrote: | I actually really want a smaller screen, though. I have smaller | hands and I want to be able to reach across it one-handed | without having to precariously adjust my grip. | ece wrote: | The zflip/razr foldables have smaller screens. | 7speter wrote: | Interesting to me how all the tech people here want an iPhone | mini sized phone when its the least popular and even the low cost | to entry iphone se, which is also lauded around these parts is | "struggling" to find buyers: | | https://www.pcmag.com/news/up-against-flashy-flagships-iphon... | dbg31415 wrote: | "You think you do, but you don't." | | I LOVED my iPhone 4 & iPhone 5 back in the day. I thought they | were just perfect. I could reach all the keys, they fit in any | pants, and they were just my favorite era of phones ever. Metal | edges, glass front and back, no stupid camera bump -- perfection. | For the time they existed, there was nothing to improve on those | phones. | | But I pretty much hate my iPhone Mini. And it has almost nothing | to do with the phone -- it's basically an improved version of the | iPhone 4, except now it's got a stupid camera bump. And I would | still love the form factor, but like... so many things just don't | fit right. | | Apps just haven't been tested to work on it, especially if you | tweak your default font sizes at all, and it's just a sub-optimal | experience in almost every way. My fingers fit, but now websites | are built with bigger fonts and need bigger screens. I | passionately hate "viewport wobble" and you see it all the | freakin' time on the iPhone Mini. | | Book an Uber? The buttons are off screen, or weird places. Sure | that's the app's fault -- and frankly a lot of apps need to do | better for responsive design in order to better improve | accessibility (especially for elderly users!) but that's a bigger | fight than I want to get into when I pick up a phone and just | want it to work. | | So I don't know, like if I had a magic wand and could just zap | every website, every app into compliance with the slightly | smaller screen... sure it'd be great. But I don't, and that makes | for a frustrating user experience that, frankly, ruins the iPhone | Mini for me. | | My iPhone 4 was the best phone I ever had. Hands down. Loved it, | emotional memories of it are still very fond. Wish I could find | that again, really do. | ajmurmann wrote: | I really wanted Apple to create an iPhone Mini. I had been | holding on to my iPhone 6S for years, hoping Apple phones would | shrink again. So I was super excited when the Mini came. Once it | came out, I was rather unhappy that there was no Pro version. I | really, really wanted the cool Pro camera in a phone that's a | substantial investment. I'd have been happy to pay more, but the | Mini's price was high enough that lacking crossing the excitement | line for the camera made me see too little value to invest. So I | ended up buying the super cheap, new SE instead. | | I now wonder if the camera I want isn't possible in the size I | want. | davide_v wrote: | Absolutely agree, but I think we are in the smaller size of the | pie. I had for many years a Samsung Galaxy S4 Mini (4.3' 124mm), | super small phone that I loved, then I switched to a Xiaomi Redmi | 4 Pro (5.0' 141mm), reasonably small but bigger then S4 and still | usable with one hand without risks. Then I switched to a Xiaomi | Mi 9T for the huge body-display ratio and I always feel it's too | big (6.39' 156mm) and sometimes I need 2 hands, and I've pretty | big hands... Nowdays you can't find any good android phone around | ~140mm in size, that I think is the perfect size. | qwertfisch wrote: | I also used an S4 Mini for a long time (more than five years), | but its size and very small weight came at the price of not | having the Full HD display of its big brother S4. It didn't | even have a 720p display! Also the battery was much too weak. | | Still I searched the whole year 2019 for a replacement and | finally settled on the Samsung A40, which has a FullHD(+) | display, reasonably good battery, all features I wanted and is | still lighter than other phones of same size. | | You are right, around 140mm length would be fine, and then an | equivalent weight of 140 to 150g. I cannot stand these bricks | with their 180, 200g of weight, no matter the display size. | These are just not usable for me. | sm4rk0 wrote: | Current phone: Samsung S10e (5.8" AMOLED, 142mm/5.6" long) and | previous: Motorola Moto X 1st gen from 2013 (4.7" AMOLED, | 129mm/5.09" long). Very happy with them. Both being flagship | models (powerful CPU), the only drawback is shorter battery life | than other phones. | thrwwmbkpr wrote: | I loved the original Moto X! It was one of the first true smart | phones my wife and I purchased, and almost the best. It's a | great balance of features and practicality that I wish a | premium (or near-premium) phone would return. If there are any | comparable current models, please let me know. | | Hardware - Not premium, but a great combination of rugged, good | looking, and practical. It was a pleasure to hold (and still | was last time I pulled it out), with the soft, grippy, rubber | back and "just right" size. Removeable battery was a plus. | | Software - Lots of nice little touches by Motorola. I wish | Google integrated more of them when they bought Motorola, like | the "double flick" to turn on the flashlight. One of the first | with lock screen notifications in white. | talhof8 wrote: | $700 seems a bit optimistic unless the scale gets really big. | Anyways, I'm in! | rabuse wrote: | I love the size of my iPhone mini, and I've had multiple friends | use my phone, and want to also shift into the smaller size; most | didn't even know the mini was a thing. | amyjess wrote: | This is why I'm not moving on from my Pixel 4a. If it ever dies, | I'll go on eBay or wherever and buy a new one. I don't even care | if it goes EOL and stops receiving security updates. | | TBH if I do end up replacing it with something else, it doesn't | have to be stock Android or even a powerful device. I'm okay with | replacing my 4a with some cheap ultra-budget shanzhai phone as | long as it's small and it works with T-Mobile US's LTE network. | | Also the iPhone Mini itself isn't an option--not only do I not | want to be part of Apple's ecosystem, but I have sensory issues | and can't handle metal phones. I need a plastic phone. And no, a | case isn't an option because a case would just make the phone too | wide for me to hold. | makeitdouble wrote: | For me the more problematic aspect of the 4a is the updates | it's receiving make it so much slower. For instance at this | point opening the camera takes around 3s, and the shutter | button lags 2s as well. | | Going back yo the previous OS would fix that, but it was also | buggy and missing proper support for the new gesture | navigation. I love the phone but it also makes me hate Google | so much. | amyjess wrote: | TBH I don't use gesture navigation so that doesn't matter to | me. I just hate Android 12 because it forced ugly gray | backgrounds on me. I miss being able to see the active | application under my notification shade and to see my | wallpaper behind the app switcher. | | At this point I think I'm just done with Google's Android and | I think I'm ready to try one of those Chinese forks with a | super-colorful iOS-like UX. | bipson wrote: | Huh? | | My 4a is works perfectly so far. | makeitdouble wrote: | Interesting. I thought that was the battery, but status | seemed to be ok. | | I'll try to see if there's some setting killing it. | pja wrote: | This is not my experience - my Pixel 4a takes < 1s to go from | tapping on the Camera icon to seeing a camera image on | screen. No shutter lag either. | | There's something wrong with your phone. Try resetting it | maybe? | xanaxagoras wrote: | I went from Pixel 4a (first Android I've ever had) to Pixel 6. | It's been about 3 months with the 6, I still have the 4a and I | think I'm going to switch back. It's just too big, and the in- | screen fingerprint reader isn't as good. | brundolf wrote: | I got an iPhone Mini hoping to be able to use it with one hand, | but it wasn't small enough to do that (and I don't have small | hands), so I returned it. I figured if I'm going to need a | PopSocket anyway, I may as well have more screen space too | | I'm not surprised the Mini has been underperforming. I think it's | in an awkward valley where it's not small enough for that to be | an advantage, it's only small enough for it to be a disadvantage | ksd482 wrote: | My thoughts exactly. I am 6'4" and I have an iPhone 13 mini and | even I think it's too big for my taste. | | I simply need something that I can use comfortably with a | single hand, small enough to call it compact and hide in my | pocket. | | I totally get the appeal of a bigger screen though. I can | appreciate it for what it achieves: bigger screen means easy to | read, good for watching media, playing games and easier to type | on it. But for my use case, I want to AVOID making it that easy | to do all of those things while still getting benefits of a | smartphone, let alone an iPhone. | | That's why I am really bummed that iPhone mini is going away. I | don't think I'll switch to Android, because I have a lot of | apple devices and the ecosystem integration is quite valuable | for me. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-05-17 23:00 UTC)