[HN Gopher] The new and upgraded Framework Laptop ___________________________________________________________________ The new and upgraded Framework Laptop Author : etbusch Score : 1228 points Date : 2022-05-19 12:19 UTC (10 hours ago) (HTM) web link (community.frame.work) (TXT) w3m dump (community.frame.work) | mixmastamyk wrote: | Looks like they didn't change the screen resolution or size, | There is a person here always complaining about it and might have | a point. Believe content has to be scaled 1.5x which is | problematic. | canuckintime wrote: | I'm waiting on alternate screen options. The 3K2K OLED screen on | the HP Specter X360[1] would be a great highend option for me. | | Framework is suggesting many customisable options but the wifi | antenna is behind the screen so it's not a seamless transition. I | would be interested in a screenless framework (with keyboard or | just the guts) if they simplify wifi. | | So a WiFi module or Cellular module would be a definite buy | | [1] https://www.theverge.com/22264792/hp- | spectre-x360-14-laptop-... | seltzered_ wrote: | I'm waiting for a tablet design. I use a 3k2k lcd touchscreen | on the HP Elite X2 tablet and while it's a more repairable | design compared to a MacBook or surface, would love something | with a bit more modularity to add a larger battery or modify | the casing (see | https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMobileComputers/comments/tcwep0... | ) | thrownaway561 wrote: | why am going to pay $1100 for an i5/8gb/265ssd when I can pay | $700 for a i5/12gb/1tbHDD. This whole thing reminds me of the | PANDA project from early 2000s and you all know how well that | project worked out. | | Laptop are throw aways. At the end of their life you recycle them | and get a new one. The single problem I see with all these type | of total upgradable devices is that you are still locked into a | single vendor. Unless other vendors get onboard and you have | competition, you are at the mercy of the single vendor's pricing | and existence. How good is an upgradeable laptop when the vendor | goes out of business and you can't buy parts? | | https://frame.work/products/laptop-12-gen-intel/configuratio... | | https://www.costco.com/hp-17.3%22-laptop---11th-intel-core-i... | kitsunesoba wrote: | Having used a laptop similar to that linked HP in past and now | comparing spec sheets, I don't really think it's in the same | class as the framework laptop at all. | | Compared to the framework, the HP's: | | - CPU is a generation behind | | - Screen has low PPI (less sharp), very low brightness, and is | probably a TN panel, meaning colors will be more dull | | - HDD which is a lot slower than an SSD anyway is 5400RPM, | which is slow even for an HDD | | - Battery is 14Wh smaller | | - Webcam is 720p instead of 1080p | | - Bluetooth and wifi is a whole major version behind | | - Charging port is one of those old terrible barrel jacks that | gets loose quickly | | And the build quality is most assuredly not in the same | universe. Laptops as cheap as this HP are built on razor thin | margins, which means that manufacturers are cutting costs | wherever possible. This gets you things like creaky flexy | cases, loose wobbly hinges, chintzy keyboards, bad trackpads, | and oddball bargain basement components with less than amazing | performance. | | In short it will be a lot less pleasant to use, even ignoring | that huge gaps in the spec sheet. Models from other | manufacturers that would be more comparable to the framework in | specs and fit and finish are the M1 MacBook Air/Pro, Dell XPS | 13, and Lenovo ThinkPad X1 Carbon. | Brian_K_White wrote: | Other vendors are free to produce compatible parts. They | publish physical dimensions and cad files on github. | | Everything about this is as interoperable as possible, both | physical and software. | | Maybe no other vendor will produce a motherboard or keyboard, | but it's not Framework's fault. | | Second, The closest competing product to Framework is Lenovo | not HP. (Despite the fact they look like a Mac's aluminum body, | huge buttonless touchpad and black chicklet keys, with a | Surface's screen aspect ratio.) | | HP's customer is someone who would like a Surface or Mac but | doesn't have that kind of cash, or just cares more about a | distinctive look that isn't gamer. | | Here's HP's customer: I got my mom a top of the line maxxed out | HP because she will never care about upgrades or repairs or | Linux or raw power, but she does care about the blingy rich | bronze look, and I care enough to steer her away from Surface | and Mac even though I don't care about the cost. That's HP's | customer. | | I WAS actually able to replace the battery in her previous | Spectre (the sweet thin one with the funky hinges that looked | like hoop earrings or wedding bands) to give it to my niece | when I updated mom, but HP did not make that easy. | | HP are premium-looking Chromebooks that run Windows. | | Framework are user-serviceable open platform Lenovos. | | "Why would I spend..." You clearly wouldn't, so don't. But I | would. Why? goes like this: | | I don't particularly care too much about AMD vs Intel, but a | lot of people are asking for an AMD cpu motherboard. | | Let's say Framework did not make a an AMD motherboard, but | someome else did. Let's say that the only way to get a | Framework was to either buy a whole Framework including an | Intel mainboard I don't want, PLUS the 3rd party motherboard | for $500 or whatever it is. I would rather do that, because I | want that open platform. First, Framework would not make me buy | the entire machine, they would let me buy everything but the | main oard. But even if they didn't, that mainboard I didn't | want is actually useable all by itself like a 900 horsepower | raspberry pi. Or I could sell it, because it's useful to anyone | else too. Or I could keep it as a backup in case I damage my | prefferred board. That _platform_ which makes all kinds of | options possible, is valuable to me. | | No one yet makes any such 3rd party mainboard, but the platform | at least allows for it and makes it possible vs not-possible. I | want that. That is valuable to me. I will pay a lot for that. | coldpie wrote: | > Laptop are throw aways. At the end of their life you recycle | them and get a new one. The single problem I see with all these | type of total upgradable devices is that you are still locked | into a single vendor. How good is an upgradeable laptop when | the vendor goes out of business and you can't buy parts? | | I agree with your skepticism. But, I don't agree that it has to | be this way. Framework is giving another model a chance, and | yeah, it may fail. But Frameworks are no /more/ disposable than | any other laptop, so I guess I don't see a downside to at least | giving it a shot if it's at an acceptable price and has a | desirable feature set. You're right that the commodity hardware | is cheaper, but I guess I can live with paying a bit more to | try something else out and support an alternate model. | bl4ckneon wrote: | Well first off the laptop you linked is an 11th gen cpu vs the | frame work which just upgraded to a 12 gen. The framework isn't | an amazing value dollar for dollar, spec for spec. That is not | why you buy one though... | | Is all about the upgradability, the open source aspect, | sustainability, etc. Good luck if you want to open your Lenovo | laptop and want to get it warrentyed for anything. | thebiglebrewski wrote: | Super excited about this launch today! Come work with us on the | Rails monolith that powers https://frame.work/ if you're stoked | too - we're hiring a Senior Full Stack Engineer: | https://jobs.lever.co/framework/1d6559b2-ccf9-4391-bded-6303... | | Lots of exciting projects coming up as we expand the Marketplace | around the world and have more big launches on the horizon. Fully | remote, and having every other Friday off is a nice benefit :) | BirAdam wrote: | Why oh why does every decent laptop have a 1080p screen? | Apparently, if I want something other than 1080p I either buy a | MacBook and pay the Apple Tax, or I buy something overpriced and | often terrible in every other way? | Terretta wrote: | > _I either buy a MacBook and pay the Apple Tax, or I buy | something overpriced and often terrible in every other way?_ | | So it's not really a tax then, it's a quality cost. | 30944836 wrote: | Because Linux's support for HiDPI (specifically, fractional | scaling) is limited. | jwcooper wrote: | This laptop has a 2256x1504 screen. The webcam is 1080p. | nrp wrote: | The Framework Laptop's display is 2256x1504. | sryie wrote: | I recently received my first framework laptop after being a loyal | Thinkpad user for years. I am loving it so far. I run Ubuntu | 22.04 daily and have not had any issues with battery life or the | lid (but I do typically leave it plugged in during lunch and | overnight). The expansion cards are brilliant and the keyboard is | comparable to my old t-series. The aspect ratio is great for | coding and I'm happy to see upgradeability is being taken | seriously as promised. If I can get 5-10 years out of it like my | old ThinkPads (all while upgrading piecewise along the way) I | will be a fan for life. | prohobo wrote: | I heard the keyboard is good, but do you mean the newer | T-series chiclet keyboards? | sryie wrote: | Yes, I owned a t430 (and also a yoga 14) so the keys on the | framework are a little wider. I can still feel the keypresses | and they are a little "softer" and quieter. I use vim | frequently so I do still miss the trackpoint and buttons at | the top of the touchpad but it hasn't been as big of a | problem as I anticipated. I am also still adjusting to the | cntrl/fn placement but I think a lot of people swapped that | in the bios anyways so it might be normal for others. | xur17 wrote: | If you haven't already, I highly recommend configuring your | capslock key to act as a control key. | Goronmon wrote: | _I recently received my first framework laptop after being a | loyal Thinkpad user for years._ | | I get excited about different laptops occasionally...and then I | remember that I won't have a trackpoint if I switch to a | different brand, and I get disappointed. Literally happens | every few months. | s0rce wrote: | I loved the TrackPoint and still miss it occasionally, had | one on my T41p from IBM, however, I've been really happy with | my Macbook (2011 Air and 2020 M1 Pro) trackpad, its | lightyears ahead of any other ones I used on PC laptops and | just works seamlessly. My Dell laptop from work the trackpad | is garbage. | riedel wrote: | I am posting the same thing every time framework pops up on | HN. I hope the nudging will do it's work eventually. | | Meanwhile I am wondering why there aren't many third party | mods for the framework around. Would it be feasible to design | a trackpoint keyboard (if you figure out how to put it in the | profile) ? Does it connect via USB or alike internally? | pauke wrote: | Business class Dells and HPs have one too. Named differently | because TM but good enough. | cooperadymas wrote: | I would challenge you to find a 2022 Dell or HP with a | trackpoint. | guardiangod wrote: | https://www.hp.com/us-en/shop/pdp/hp- | elitebook-840-g8-notebo... | | Just got a new one from work. It's literally in front of | me right now. | | Granted the laptop's build quality is questionable (the | right hinge's case bulges higher than the left) and the | trackpoint has a tendency to get stuck to one direction. | samstave wrote: | I have a flagship HP Omen 15" gaming laptop. The case is | garbage, but the screen and guts are good. | vladvasiliu wrote: | Oh man, I have an 845 g8 (840 with amd). I hate this | laptop with a passion. It could've been such a great | tool, but it's a steaming PoS because HP wanted to make a | quick buck. | | I don't have your hinge issue. But, as you open the | display, the hinge gets below the laptop's feet. So now | it slides around on the table. Which is so stupid, | because this laptop doesn't have 4 feet, but 2 large | ones, than run the width of the laptop. Which is | fantastic if you want to use it on the corner of a table | since it won't wobble! | | Then there's the screen. I swear someone at HP wanted to | see how shitty a screen they could get away with in a | 2000 euro laptop (which is just a middle of the road | config, mind you). On basic models, you have a 6 bit | screen. On higher-end ones, they have this security | screen thingy that massacres the viewing angles _even | when it 's off_. If you move your head around the tiniest | bit (say while listening to music) the colors will | perceptibly change. The colors are atrocious. And they | don't even hide it! The specs say 72% NTSC (not sRGB, | which is much wider). | | Then you have your usual suspects with cheap laptops: the | cooler is an absolute joke, the fan developed a horrible | noise in a few months. There's coil whine that drives you | up a wall when connecting a USB-C monitor + power. | | On the plus side, the analog headphone out is | surprisingly good. I don't hear any background noise, | there's no whine when moving the mouse, and the sound is | similar to my Retina MBP on relatively high-end | headphones. | | It also works very well on Linux, I'd say it's even | better than Windows: I've installed a fresh copy of | Windows 11 and I can't get the camera to work. It works | perfectly on Linux. | jackbravo wrote: | The HP EliteBook laptops still have trackpads. For | example this one: https://www.hp.com/us-en/shop/pdp/hp- | elitebook-850-g8-notebo... | stevephilp wrote: | Although technically released in late 2021, the HP | Elitebook 855 G8 has a trackpoint. | pauke wrote: | Ouch, that hurts. It seems you're right at least about | Dells, and HPs are going too. | pbhjpbhj wrote: | Won't fix one child-comment on quality, but is there a TP | keyboard that would physically fit the hole in the framework. | A physical shim would be easy easier; I'm assuming (possibly | wrongly) that they connect via an internal USB connection? | tluyben2 wrote: | That's why I have high hopes for (something like) the | Frame.work; it should be possible to just get another | keyboard 'part' which actually does have a trackpoint (and | even no trackpad but other stuff theoretically). Someone, | either Frame.work themselves or someone else needs to make | it, but at least it's possible. | | Edit: I would pay for such a keyboard for the Frame.work; it | would actually very much stimulate me to buy one! I really | hope to see crowdfunding from people who _just_ make a | Frame.work part. | Melatonic wrote: | Seriously - or at least a mod kit to get it working with | the existing keyboard. Hell there could even maybe be a | universal mod kit to add to any laptop keyboard that is | removeable and has the space! | pedrocr wrote: | Yep, same here. And with increasing urgency as Thinkpad | quality control seems to have fallen off a cliff. Framework | seems uniquely positioned to fix this though. Someone just | needs to do a compatible top cover that takes Thinkpad | keyboards. I'd take a stupid one without touchpad at all as I | just disable it anyway. That shouldn't be too hard, it's | mostly getting the plastic right and adapting the connector | to the motherboard. | csdvrx wrote: | > Yep, same here. And with increasing urgency as Thinkpad | quality control seems to have fallen off a cliff. | | Not really, they are among the rare laptops to still offer | S3 for Linux. | | And the X1 Fold is a technical marvel (working on Linux | support right now, if I'm successful it may become my next | toy device to try to use Linux on as a daily driver) | | > Framework seems uniquely positioned to fix this though. | Someone just needs to do a compatible top cover that takes | Thinkpad keyboards. | | This. I will buy one as soon as they make a thinkpad like | keyboard [+] or the possibly to disassemble and mount a | genuine Thinkpad keyboard. | | + : A keyboard qualifies as a "thinkpad keyboard" if has | all of the following: | | - PageUp above Left, PageDown above Right: to me, that's | the most important thing ever! | | - PrintScreen between right Alt and right Ctrl: very | important too | | - Delete above Backspace | | - A trackpoint between the {G,H,B} keys with 3 buttons | below the Spacebar: I'm not a trackpoint fanatic but I | appreciate the precision it offers when I need it, and | badly felt its absence when I tried a macbook (no, can't | do!) | Liskni_si wrote: | > A keyboard qualifies as a "thinkpad keyboard" if has | all of the following: | | > PageUp above Left, PageDown above Right: to me, that's | the most important thing ever! | | > PrintScreen between right Alt and right Ctrl: very | important too | | That's not a proper ThinkPad keyboard at all. That's the | new 6-row fake which has 10 fewer keys than a proper | ThinkPad keyboard, which is this one: https://laptopkeys. | com/uploads/704_1348778226_Lenovo%20t410s... | csdvrx wrote: | That's what available now: except on the T25, the old | layout is no longer found on modern Thinkpads. | | This modern layout has advantages: for example, the space | between the keys makes it more comfortable to use with | nails, so I no longer have to keep them short. | Liskni_si wrote: | > This modern layout has advantages: for example, the | space between the keys makes it more comfortable to use | with nails, so I no longer have to keep them short. | | Layout and the shape of keys are orthogonal concepts. | | But yeah, you're right that there aren't many options | these days, and the T25 is getting old. :-( | rkagerer wrote: | Youch does nobody else go haywire that Fn and Ctrl keys | are in the 'wrong' spots? | csdvrx wrote: | There's a bios option to swap them, and custom firmwares | doing the same for the thinkpad bluetooth keyboard | pmlnr wrote: | That is the correct one. FN first, ctrl next. See DEC, | and IBM. | pedrocr wrote: | > Not really, they are among the rare laptops to still | offer S3 for Linux. | | The features are great but my complaint was about quality | control. My T460s has had every single part but the | chassis replaced, some multiple times, and still failed. | A new T14s had to have the keyboard replaced because it | randomly missed keystrokes. It then started having the | screen randomly start flickering after resume. A new X1, | top of the line 4K spec, has the internal screen randomly | lose sync. The days of Thinkpads as dependable machines | seem gone. | bitwize wrote: | The sense I'm getting is that my 2014 T450s was one of | the last few "acceptable" ThinkPads. | | If I need a new laptop, it will be a Framework. | loosescrews wrote: | I have had similar experiences with the X1 Extreme. The | biggest issue I have had is that the repair process | almost always breaks something new. The first one spent | so much time getting repaired that I actually bought a | second one so that I could at least have one functional | laptop. The second one is a newer generation, but the | quality issues are similar. | csdvrx wrote: | > A new X1, top of the line 4K spec, has the internal | screen randomly lose sync. The days of Thinkpads as | dependable machines seem gone. | | I believe it's all due to the large hardware and firmware | changes. | | Take for example USB-C: we don't know yet how to make | study ports. My X1 had its motherboard replaced due to a | dead port. | | Or look at ACPI S0ix: it's only since last year that it's | become comparable to S3 in power consumption (and S3 is | no longer officially supported since Intel 11th gen) | | The keyboard too changed: the layout is the same as the | xx30 series, but there's less travel. | | Likewise, the screens are now 2k or 4k with thinner | bezels, and intel HUD ("Xe graphic") is quite different | from the previous generations: even if it's handled by | the same i915 driver on Linux, GUC/HUC are more | important, and disabling PSR no longer makes sense. | | Change is constant, but I believe pre pandemic and post | pandemic Thinkpads are very different beasts. | kikoreis wrote: | I thought it was just me!!! | sryie wrote: | Yep, the trackpoint (and buttons on top of the touchpad) are | huge. I am a heavy vim user so those were extremely | convenient but I have been trying to get comfortable with tap | to click because that seems to be the way laptop | manufacturers have headed (and I don't want my efficiency to | suddenly collapse when I am put behind any other brand of | computer). I am also still holding out some small hope that | someone will come up with a way to swap it in to a framework | laptop but I'm not holding my breath. | KerrickStaley wrote: | The Trackpoint seems redundant to me because I can manipulate | the trackpad with my thumb without leaving the home row, and | for me it's faster and more comfortable than a Trackpoint. | | Using your thumb to control the trackpad works better on Mac | laptops because the Force Touch trackpad allows you to press | anywhere to click. Most PC laptops have a "diving board" | click mechanism which means it gets progressively harder to | click the further you are from the bottom, and clicking near | the top is impossible. Also, Mac laptops position the top of | the trackpad closer to the keyboard than other laptops I've | seen. | | You can use tap-to-click as a work-around for being unable to | click the top of the trackpad, but I find tap-to-click less | usable for other reasons. | soperj wrote: | how do you scroll with just your thumb? how do you paste | into your terminal? | sryie wrote: | Is there a way to middle click with this method? I use that | often for new tabs and ThinkPads have the physical button | at the top and tap to click is just three fingers. | innocenat wrote: | If it's only for open in new tab, then Ctrl+Left Click | work as well when using trackpad. | fendy3002 wrote: | Middle click is very useful to close tab, which the | alternative is to move cursor to a much smaller close | button. | | Especially on some apps (iirc pgadmin) where the tabs has | no close button, that we need to right click and choose a | menu to close a tab. | hgomersall wrote: | Pasting from the primary buffer is surely the main use | case for middle click? | spaniard89277 wrote: | We're on the same boat. IDK what to do honestly. Hope someone | makes a keyboard with trackpoint for the framework. | NikolaNovak wrote: | Same. Everytime I get excited about Framework, Syste7m6, | etc... and then get sad. | | I fully understand I'm a vanishing minority, But trackpoint | is such a productivity booster for me, and makes such amazing | use of space in a laptop format, that it's a must-have (and | again, I fully understand that those who don't use Trackpoint | will have no comprehension of what am I going on about; I'm a | grouchy quirky old man :). | | Then there's other little things that may or may not be | trackpad related - small function keys, lack of standard | home/end/insert/del/pgup/pgdown cluster, and the collapsed | arrows which I don't even understand - you have the room, | it's right there, nothing is using it... why is everybody | making up and down arrows functionally unusable (I want to | blame Apple, but as Obi Wan said - who's the bigger fool, the | fool, or the fool that follows :) | Melatonic wrote: | Trackpoint really is damn nice. I also find it hilarious | when I disable the trackpad in the bios to avoid any | accidental brushes and then someone else tries to use my | laptop - its like watching a deer try to walk for the first | time! | hgomersall wrote: | Same here, though I have a key combination (ctrl-space) | to toggle the trackpad. | cptnapalm wrote: | You can disable the trackpad in the BIOS? A whole new, | better world has opened up to me! I hate trackpads. | bigpeopleareold wrote: | I taught myself just last year to use the trackpoint | because I was curious. I turned it off at the BIOS, etc. | just to make me use it exclusively. Once I got over the | hump, I was surprised. I don't want keyboards anymore | without it. I developed a strong muscle memory for it over | the year. I'm a grouchy quirky old man, but when it comes | to trackpoints, I am new to this quirk :D | philjohn wrote: | Having had a trackpoint laptop since the 90's, the only | thing that I found I could switch to when moving to a job | that gave all engineers Mac's was the MBP track pad - the | gestures and precision/feel just about made up for the | loss of not having to move hands from the home row. | | But yeah, sad that more laptops don't have trackpoints. | ziml77 wrote: | Similar story here. All the laptops I used had the | trackpoint and I didn't want to give it up until I tried | an MBP in 2012. The trackpad was miles better than any | other trackpad I'd used. Other machines have gotten | better trackpads now, though I still haven't tried one | that is as good as the current MacBook trackpads. But at | least I don't hate every moment of using non-Mac | trackpads anymore. | vladvasiliu wrote: | Is this on a thinkpad? My HP EliteBook has a track point | and I haven't found any config that makes it usable. The | tracking is either way too quick or way too slow. And the | acceleration curve is either very steep or non-existent. | | I've tried it on both Windows and Linux. I realize I'm | not used to it, in the beginning I used to have a hard | time with mice, too, so maybe it's just a question of | habit. | | For the moment, the only thing it does is leave a round | trace on my screen whenever I close it... | pmlnr wrote: | The HP's have 2 keys, not 3. The middle is the one you | push to use the trackpoint to scroll with. Hp simply | crippled it | kwertyoowiyop wrote: | It's almost worth getting a "gamer laptop" just to get | full-sized up/down arrow keys. | csdvrx wrote: | > the collapsed arrows which I don't even understand - you | have the room, it's right there, nothing is using it... why | is everybody making up and down arrows functionally | unusable (I want to blame Apple, but as Obi Wan said - | who's the bigger fool, the fool, or the fool that follows | :) | | This so much!! | | I miss PageUp and PageDown there so much I refuse to buy | anything but thinkpads right now. | | The last alternative brand was Dell, which adopted the | stupidly huge Left and Right arrows, and that's even seen | on customer line Lenovos now :( | vladvasiliu wrote: | HPs still have dedicated pgup / home /etc in a column, to | the right of backspace / enter / etc. But they've also | adopted the stupid arrow cluster you describe. | acomjean wrote: | When I was at IBM I had a mouse with a trackpoint for | scrolling. It was pretty great. I miss being able to move | and scroll at variable speeds. | | https://www.microsoft.com/buxtoncollection/detail.aspx?id=1 | 2... | | and a paper: https://www.microsoft.com/buxtoncollection/a/p | df/Zhai%20scro... | the_pwner224 wrote: | It's not the same, but the Logitech MX Master is | basically the current version of this. | | It has two scrollwheels, one for vertical and one for | horizontal. They have some interesting tech in them. When | moved slowly they click with detents, like normal | scrollwheels. But when you move the wheels more quickly | they "unlock" to spin freely, you can scroll at a pretty | high speed and with good accuracy. | evil-olive wrote: | here [0] is a teardown of the current generation compared | to the previous, to show how much design and attention to | detail goes in to them. | | I was an MX Master 2 user for years, and bought a 3, | along with an MX Keys [1] at the beginning of covid WFH. | still going strong 2 years later, and I would buy both | again in a heartbeat. | | 0: https://blog.bolt.io/logitech-mx-master-3-vs-2s/ | | 1: https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/keyboards/mx- | keys-wi... | tomc1985 wrote: | I looooooove this feature of the MX Master mice, but I | went through 2 of them in two years. They do not seem | particularly well-built. | kybernetikos wrote: | I had problems with the Master 2, but my Master 3 has | been very reliable. | jjeaff wrote: | Do the scroll wheels have "weight" to them? In other | words, can you give it a good spin and let it keep | spinning on its own momentum? | beAbU wrote: | Yes. I have the previous gen Master MX. The scroll wheel | is a solid metal flywheel. It has serious heft and | continues spinning maybe 5-10 seconds after a good flick. | | On mine, the horizontal wheel does not have this feature. | Maybe the newer model does. | | And like another poster mentioned, it has a detent when | scrolling slowly like a traditional scrollwheel, that | then mechanically disengages when flicked fast enough. | You can configure this sensitivity in software, and even | map one of the mouse buttons to disengage the detent, if | you dont like the smart scroll feature. | | Its seriously the best designed mouse I've ever used. | It's clear logitech spent a lot of effort thinking about | what makes a good mouse really good, and they implemented | that in this mouse. Truly a flagship device, without | cruft or unnecessary crap. | | Battery life after about 4 years is so-so, so I keep a | usb cable on my desk to plug it in when it runs low. I | get about 2 weeks out of it? | | Materials are also degrading a bit, it's surface is | becoming sticky like many "velvet" finish plastics do, | but its not at a point where it's gross to hold. | | Its held up very very well after roughly 1000 work days | of use. It's cost per day of use is basically 0. | evil-olive wrote: | > On mine, the horizontal wheel does not have this | feature. Maybe the newer model does. | | I have both the current model and the older one. the | horizontal wheel has been improved a bit - it's larger, | and they moved the side buttons so that it's harder to | hit them accidentally when scrolling horizontally (see | this [0] comparison pic from a teardown [1] that I also | linked elsewhere in this thread) | | but the "shifting" feature is still only for the main | scrollwheel, not the horizontal one. in practice I've | never found myself using horizontal scroll often enough | to wish it had the same "flick" capability. | | 0: https://blog.bolt.io/wp- | content/uploads/2019/10/side.png | | 1: https://blog.bolt.io/logitech-mx-master-3-vs-2s/ | sobjornstad wrote: | I just took a stopwatch to mine and it spun for 10 | seconds. In real life you would give it another whirl | after a couple of seconds because it starts to slow down, | but the short answer is clearly yes. | the_pwner224 wrote: | Yep, the scrollwheels are metal so they have some heft | and they do keep spinning. | | I haven't used the MX Master, only very briefly tested a | display unit at a store, but I do _believe_ that it spun | for a while. So I 'd check a video review first if you're | thinking of buying one. | | I personally use their G(aming) series mice with their | older manual, mechanical mechanism instead of the new | electromagnetic one in the MX Master. The G mice spin for | a while... 15 seconds after a solid flick. | robotguy wrote: | Back in the late '90s, I worked for an inventor dealing | with analog dome switches. We took a mouse that had a | rocker for scrolling instead of a wheel and I | reprogrammed it to "fake" scroll clicks faster or slower | depending on how hard you pressed. You could scroll slow | enough to read, or zoom to the end of a doc with really | good control. Man I miss that mouse. | xur17 wrote: | I used to love my trackpoint, and swore by it, but I was | unable to get my mouse to go fast enough on my latest X1 | carbon, so I've sadly stopped using it.. | dorfsmay wrote: | How do you use your mouse in a car, on a plane, on the | couch? | xur17 wrote: | I mistyped - meant trackpoint not mouse. The maximum | trackpoint speed on ubuntu is waay to slow, so I gave up | on it. | ddoolin wrote: | I genuinely had no idea people still used those, or that they | were still made with those. | NikolaNovak wrote: | It's one of those things that once you invest into the | learning curve, you're a cultish convert (I certainly am | one:) | mrtranscendence wrote: | I've tried them, but they felt so clumsy to me that I | don't see how I could ever be a convert. Trackpads, at | least on Macs, feel precise and intuitive; I even use one | on the desktop (unless I'm gaming). | | I suppose a trackpoint might be useful if you _really_ | want your hands never to leave your keyboard, but | generally I 'm either editing text with emacs keybindings | (where I don't have to use the mouse), or else I'm in a | mode where having one hand off the keyboard doesn't feel | at all hindering. | | Maybe I could be convinced, but since they're hard to | find these days and getting harder there wouldn't be much | point (except to frustrate myself on the off chance I | ended up loving them). | NikolaNovak wrote: | >>they felt so clumsy to me that I don't see how I could | ever be a convert. | | They do have a learning curve; but FWIW, I feel exact the | opposite - I can achieve both lightning fast movement, | AND pixel-perfect precision with the trackpoint (the | latter I have never managed to consistently achieve on a | trackpad). | | (Note, for me, it's never a "Trackpoint vs Mouse". I'll | use mouse 100% of the time when at my desk. When not at | the desk though, it's "Trackpoint vs Trackpad", and for | the amount of space it takes, the compromises it instills | in keyboard layout and ergonomics, Trackpad never quite | worked for me. On aside, I miss the potential of netbooks | because a 10" screen with Trackpoint would be a | formidable hyper-portable machine with today's ARM | processors - but not if you need to reserve 5 inches for | a trackpad :| ) | bitwize wrote: | > (the latter I have never managed to consistently | achieve on a trackpad). | | Ever try an Apple trackpad? | IshKebab wrote: | What learning curve? Isn't it just a joystick mouse? | | I think they were competitive with old touchpads (and | probably the ones you still get on cheap laptops) but I | expect all the people above praising them have just never | used a modern Apple touchpad. _Far_ superior. It 's not | even close. | | There's a good reason nobody makes them anymore. | mrtranscendence wrote: | > What learning curve? Isn't it just a joystick mouse? | | They don't have a learning curve in the sense that it's | difficult to make one functional, but when I did try a | trackpoint I felt it terribly awkward and imprecise. I'm | not at all surprised that there would be a transition | period after which trackpoints at least _felt_ better to | use. | NikolaNovak wrote: | >>There's a good reason nobody makes them anymore. | | But they do. Last I checked HP, Dell and Lenovo all had | options for power users (not in their consumer / mid- | range laptops though). Or at the very least, my last | several and current clients have all sent me laptops with | a Trackpoint from those three brands (and not to my | asking; it's just fairly standard for mobile employees or | enterprise customers to have Trackpoint included) | | >>What learning curve? Isn't it just a joystick mouse? | | well, no - to me, that's an inherent contradiction: Mouse | and trackpad are both positional (as largely is | trackball). Joystick, trackpoint are directional. They | are fundamentally different paradigms. | | In terms of learning curve, I do believe Trackpoint is | less intuitive for most users, as it does have that | different paradigm. I think it takes a bit of time to get | really good at it - most people who use it for a few | minutes feel it's inferior and clumsy. But I've had | "races" with my colleagues with Macbooks, and spoiler - | I'll agree it's not even close, but not necessarily in | the direction you might expect 0:-) | | (on aside, I do have a Macbook, it's about 4 years old. | How new does a modern it need to be to fit your | definition of a modern Apple Trackpad? | efsavage wrote: | > The aspect ratio is great for coding | | If I ever need to buy a laptop this would be a huge feature for | me, I would _love_ if they still made 4:3 displays for | desktops, it 's so much better for the triple-wide setup I | prefer, especially on the sides. | ProZsolt wrote: | Curved ultrawide is the way to go. I can run three apps side- | by-side on my a 38" Dell. | xur17 wrote: | > and the keyboard is comparable to my old t-series. | | Really happy to hear this bit since it's my main concern when | buying a new laptop. My 2 other questions - how long does the | battery last, and how is overall build quality? | sryie wrote: | I am happy with the build quality so far. It feels sturdy and | lightweight. The laptop is noticeably lighter and thinner | than my old ThinkPad. With the lid open it is about the same | height as my 14 inch but there is more vertical screen real | estate because there is less black around the display area. I | have read about issues with the hinges but I think this has | been fixed now. I have not had hinge issues. I opened up the | laptop to take a look inside when I first got it and | everything came apart and went back together nicely (my only | surprise was one screw does not come out all the way by | design which I had to Google about). The expansion slots are | maybe a little too sturdy and require a good amount of force | to remove. | | For battery life I think an average user can expect 5 to 6 | hours. I use mine for about 5 hours with Firefox (around | 10-20 tabs) and a few terminal processes and will still have | about 20% remaining. | favadi wrote: | Do you have any problem with resolution, screen scaling? I | think it requires 1.5x scaling, which often cause screen | tearing and artifacts on Linux. | rcthompson wrote: | I run at 2x scaling and then set the text scaling factor to | .85, so the effective text scaling becomes 1.7, and I avoid | the issues with non-integer scaling in Wayland. | sryie wrote: | Oh, good point. Yes, my resolution is 2256x1504 and found the | 1x too small so I have to scale it up. I haven't had any | issues but I also typically do lower level and back end type | work (occasional front end when needed). I also haven't done | any gaming with the laptop (except some minor experimentation | with Godot). If you are a designer or serious artist I | recommend at least trying out your os with fractional scaling | first. | reaperducer wrote: | _have not had any issues with battery life_ | | Looks like it can be charged from any USB-C port you install in | it. | | Much better than my work-assigned ThinkPad, which only allows | charging through one specific port. As if everyone on the | planet has their wall plug in the same location. | sryie wrote: | Yeah, that is a nice feature. I put USB c ports on both sides | so I can plug it in based on where an outlet is relative to | where I'm sitting. | bitwize wrote: | Love the shoutouts to the recent Framework Mainboard cyberdeck | projects. Framework is clearly right out in front in terms of | hacker community goodwill. Keep it up, guys -- push it further. | With enough clout, as an OEM you might be able to push back | against Intel on things like ME, and make our hardware even more | freedom-respecting. | Oxodao wrote: | There are "battery life improvement" will those be available to | 1st gen Frameworks motherboard or is it hardware related ? | | And do anyone know if the bug in the HDMI card preventing it to | go to sleep is still a thing / need a firmware update / is | hopeless ? | nrp wrote: | We have a firmware update in testing to improve shut down (S5) | drain. For s0ix, we are investigating firmware paths to reduce | power consumption. The card itself actually does go to into a | low power state, but the USB4/TBT4 retimer stays in a higher | power state. That is something we were able to fix in a | combination of hardware and firmware on the new 12th Gen Intel | Core systems for s0ix/Modern Standby. We're investigating paths | to improve this that would work for 11th Gen as well, but | nothing final yet. | ZeroCool2u wrote: | Congrats on the launch! FW is on my shortlist for my next | laptop. | | Would you consider having someone on the team do a more in | depth technical write-up of the work that went into the | battery life optimization? I'd personally be very interested | in reading that as a long time Linux laptop user. | baybal2 wrote: | cebert wrote: | I'm excited about Framework Laptops but am holding out for them | to release and AMD-based model. I have no interest in supporting | Intel. | jmakov wrote: | Ryzen? | spullara wrote: | Can I reassign the ctrl and fn keys? I don't use Fn and it is | super annoying that it is where it is. | digisign wrote: | If not you can almost always swap with Caps lock via software. | That should slowly break the dependence on the corner key. | gadflyinyoureye wrote: | Please make your forums have a link to the actual site. | motiejus wrote: | Any photos of how the ethernet expansion card will look like | while plugged in? Looks like it's bigger than the expansion slot. | | I intend to keep it there permanently, which brings questions | about durability, especially when carrying the laptop around. | nrp wrote: | It is oversized, but robust enough to keep installed (I have | been for the last few months dogfooding it). We'll add more | photos of it installed to the product page for it before we | open sales on it to make sure folks know what they are getting | into before buying. | foodstances wrote: | https://frame.work/products/ethernet-expansion-card | rkagerer wrote: | As in, sticks out past the edge of the laptop? | CalRobert wrote: | Thank you for making an upgrade kit! Very happy with the | Framework I bought 2 months ago but seeing options like this - | https://frame.work/gb/en/products/12-gen-intel-upgrade-kit - is | nice. | noveltyaccount wrote: | This is so amazing. If I had a 10th or 11th gen i7 laptop, no | way I'd rush out and buy a new laptop for two or three grand. | But a new mainboard for $600? Yeah, that's an annual upgrade | train I can get on! | Sebb767 wrote: | Given that one of their stated targets is sustainability, | this sounds like Jevons paradox [0]. This might be averted a | bit, though, if you reuse the old mainboards for things like | a homeserver. | | [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox | rowanG077 wrote: | How are the thermals on these chips? 11th gen and prior was bad | enough with basically all laptops having significant throttling | issues. Is that fixed now on the 12th gen? I bought an XPS 13 | last year and even with extensive modding and disabling turbo | boost it still throttles the iGPU. | 5- wrote: | congrats on the update! | | framework is a great laptop with macbook-like chassis. | | all that's needed to make me and a vocal minority happy is an | alternative thinkpad-like chassis. | Markoff wrote: | more like 7 row thinkpad keyboard for starters | Pasorrijer wrote: | Any plans for discrete graphics? | corderop wrote: | I'm pretty excited about this Intel P chips of the 12th | generation. It's seems they are going to be a good competitor for | M1 for the Linux world. At least, benchmarks show good numbers, | we'll see. | pizza234 wrote: | Alder Lake is still not fully supported by Linux (improvements | are coming with v5.181, which is not stable yet, and it will take | a while to be released into several linux distros (at least the | Ubuntu based)). | | It's a shame, because it would have been a great moment to offer | an AMD alternative. | | 1=https://www.tomshardware.com/uk/news/intel-thread-director-c... | smoldesu wrote: | Alder Lake works just fine on Linux, it's only Thread Director | which is missing. Not that these machines would really even | need it, the current CPU prioritization code seems to work | surprisingly well. | howinteresting wrote: | Think most distros have backported the Alder Lake patches to | their kernels. | ripley12 wrote: | Things are fine on Linux even without Thread Director support. | I've been running Fedora 36 (kernel v5.17) on a 12900K for a | few months now without any noticeable issues. | neurostimulant wrote: | The Ethernet Expansion Card seems to be using USB type C | connector. Can it works on non Framework computers? | | Also, anyone has recommendation for great affordable router with | 2.5 gigabit ethernet ports for home lab setup? I've been | searching for one but it seems only gaming routers include these | ports. I prefer something more enterprisy (lots of options to | tinker with like mikrotik or pfsense), but those usually don't | come with 2.5 gigabit ethernet ports, instead they (the | affordable ones) have plenty of 1 gigabit ethernet ports and a | single sfp+ port. Or should I bite the bullet and go full sfp+ | for home lab setup? | nrp wrote: | Yep! It will work as a normal USB-C Ethernet adapter, but due | to the form factor, there is risk that you can apply an | excessive amount of torque to a normal USB-C receptacle if the | Ethernet cable gets pulled. | pedrocr wrote: | It doesn't seem like a great option compared to a normal | USB-C or A ethernet dongle because of that. Those are slim | enough that they're basically a continuation of the ethernet | cable and as a benefit also unplug when yanked. This one | doesn't even fit within the normal adapter form factor of the | framework. | rgrmrts wrote: | I would buy a 15/16" version of this in a heartbeat :) I really | hope another chassis with a larger screen is in the cards for | framework! | jillesvangurp wrote: | Hdpi, with a more sane aspect ratio and hdr that is suitable | for graphics work would be high on my wish list. | | I actually like using Darktable. And I like using it on a good | screen better. So even though I have a Linux laptop that runs | Darktable very nicely (even with just Intel Xe graphics), I | actually do a lot of photo editing on my 8 year old imac, which | has a 5K screen, fantastic contrast & colors, etc. It shows me | stuff my laptop is simply incapable of showing. Darktable runs | like a dog on it but at least I can see what I'm doing properly | and have enough screen real estate to actually fit the tools in | the sidebar on the screen without having to scroll. | | I'd love to see Linux laptop that is optimal for graphics, | movie editing, etc. Mediocre 1080p screens are simply not good | enough anymore. Apple stopped shipping anything non hdpi years | ago. Even the cheapest macbook air has a decent screen. Decent | contrast, easy to calibrate, beautiful colors and excellent | dynamic range. Probably best in class by any objective measure. | Why can't Linux users get screens that good? It's not like | Apple doesn't buy their parts from the same usual suspects in | China and Korea when it comes to screens and other things you | need to build a laptop. | dmix wrote: | > Why can't Linux users get screens that good? | | The only thing stopping me from switching from MBP. | | Framework is a giant step forward though. Pretty much | everything I could want otherwise. | tomrod wrote: | I like the 13" but totally agree. | jadbox wrote: | 17" 4k please! (yes, I can do coding with that resolution at | 120% scaling) | cowpig wrote: | Right now I'm using a 17" Dell Precision which is a brick of | a laptop that weighs over 3.5kg and whose battery life can be | measured in minutes as my primary work machine. | | I would buy a 17" framework to replace it in a heartbeat | bcrosby95 wrote: | Yeah, my 13" laptop just died on me, and it was just too | uncomfortable for me to risk buying another 13" laptop. | | The Ethernet port is a big bonus for me too. Oh wells. | maz- wrote: | Really happy to see this, although I must've bought one of the | last Gen 11 Frameworks at full price (literally 2 days ago ). | ripvanwinkle wrote: | just waiting for a 15inch version to come out. Any ideas when | that might happen | baka367 wrote: | I am staying in a 2017 laptop waiting for framework to become | available in the wider world. Really hope to hear about would | wide availability as soon as possible | jai_ wrote: | Does anyone know if the Framework team plan to offer an ARM based | mainboard? | | I'm honestly not even sure that there are any good ARM based SoCs | to make a laptop mainboard from, but given what we've seen from | Apple's development of their iPhone chips being integrated into | laptop and desktop, I wonder if something similar could be done | with other existing ARM CPUs from Samsung or Nvidia? | wmf wrote: | I doubt they'll offer ARM, but the RK3588 is designed for | laptops and not embarrassingly slow (about 3x the performance | of an RPi 4). | CameronNemo wrote: | The mt8192 is faster than the rk3588 and already shipping in | Chromebooks. Plenty of activity on the linux-mediatek mailing | list to mainline support for the currently shipping | Chromebooks. | | mt8195 Chromebooks should appear soon too, and they are even | faster than the mt8192. Mainlining activity is also occurring | for this SoC. | CameronNemo wrote: | Do any ARM SoCs support USB4 (apart from Apple Silicon)? IIRC | that is the main reason they cited for not shipping AMD boards. | loufe wrote: | I'm looking at getting a new portable device at the end of the | year as my nearly 11 year old Y580 IdeaPad continues to fall | apart. I feel like it's between Framework and an iPad pro. It's a | little dumb but the amount of content I watch on the thing is | high, and having an OLED screen is important to me, it changes | the game visually. | | I would happily drop $2500 CAD on a framework if an OLED screen | became available but I sincerely doubt it is something easy for | them to source. That said, having a physicaly Canadian French | keyboard is a huge plus, thanks Frame.Work. Oh well, choices to | be made. | filmgirlcw wrote: | This is exciting! I'm very seriously looking at upgrading my | mainboard and repurposing the 11th Gen I've got now into a DIY | project! | | I've been VERY happy with my Framework and am glad to see this | update. | conradev wrote: | It is awesome that Framework is so extensible - I would love to | see either an integrated 5G modem, or a 5G expansion card. The | latter is tricky because of antennas... | [deleted] | jameshart wrote: | Ohhhhh _that 's_ why there was a spate of projects posted last | week about building computers based on framework mainboards - | submarine marketing for this framework upgrade launch. Figured it | was framework behind it somehow, but the fact that it's to | promote the 'here are some ways to use your old mainboard once | you upgrade' angle makes a ton of sense. | natosaichek wrote: | Yeah - whenever somebody makes a good thing and people use it | in cool ways, that's submarine marketing for that thing. | jameshart wrote: | Sure, it's entirely a coincidence that both | https://github.com/brickbots/framedeck/ and | https://github.com/penk/MainboardTerminal published 10 days | ago, and they're both referenced in this framework | announcement. Convenient for Framework that those two | projects came out right before their upgrade launch! | | But I don't just have my own innate cynicism to go on here! | The framedeck project write-up actually contains this | disclosure: As they were preparing this | documentation release, they emailed me to see if I'd be | interested in a collaboration of sorts. They would provide | one of their laptops and some additional modules for me to | build something unique with the only condition being that I | released the designs for public use. | | Which is _fine_! This is earned media - Framework got some | people to make and open source some cool designs. I wasn 't | sure, last week, why they were doing that _now_ in | particular. Now I know why they 're pushing that angle, and | it makes sense. | | Goodness, people are touchy. | smoldesu wrote: | Maybe it's because they only recently released the | motherboard as an individually purchasable component? | jameshart wrote: | And maybe _that 's_ because they're bringing the new | version to market so they're expecting to have some | excess stock of the original motherboard that they need | to sell down. | nrp wrote: | It's somewhat less nefarious than that. Before we announced the | availability of a new Mainboard that existing Framework Laptop | users can upgrade to, we wanted to make sure that there were | interesting ways for people to re-use their old ones. When we | sent out hardware to some creators, we told them we would | appreciate it if they posted their projects by X date, leading | to them clustering just before that date. | jameshart wrote: | Didn't mean to come across as accusatory - on the contrary, | it's smart marketing and totally in keeping with the brand | values. | Decabytes wrote: | I hope that if Framework continues to be successful they can | start dictating more changes to the manufacturers of the | components to make the components easier to integrate into the | laptop design. For example, a standard size for Mobos so that | makes it easier to integrate AMD/Intel processors | nrp wrote: | I'm happy to answer any questions around this! We've been working | on this since update since we launched the product last year, so | we're excited to be able to share it today. | akavel wrote: | Piling on the wishlist: any chances of a fanless mainboard in | the future? I'm a sucker for fanless, hard for me to imagine | going back... | Kerrick wrote: | Will all software shipped with the hardware when ordered with | GNU/Linux be Free or will there be non-Free software such as | the BIOS/UEFI? | | EDIT: I just realized that you cannot order this laptop with | GNU/Linux pre installed. I was mistaken. | nrp wrote: | We've seen distro preference be too broad to make pre-loading | efficient. Instead, we ship DIY Edition with no OS and | publish guides for how to install and optimize the most | popular distros. Our embedded controller firmware is open | (see | https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/EmbeddedController), and | we're working with some community members on attempting a | coreboot port. | aaaaaaaaata wrote: | > we're working with some community members on attempting a | coreboot port. | | Commendable. Very cool. | Kerrick wrote: | Oh wow, that is actually really exciting! | the_gipsy wrote: | Any chance of ortholinear (grid) keyboards happening? | nrp wrote: | We've gotten requests from a couple of ortholinear keyboard | makers on it. With our current Input Cover design, it is | technically possible to do, but would have fixed costs that | would be extremely difficult to amortize over the number of | units we could realistically sell. Because of that, we don't | have any active plans for this. | CarVac wrote: | Is there any way a hobbyist can make a custom one that | would fit? | benhurmarcel wrote: | The problem is mainly getting switches (and their | keycaps) that are thin enough. All the switches that are | available to be used by hobbyists (Cherry MX, Kailh | Choc...) are way too thick. | rgoulter wrote: | I'd hope for a thicker laptop frame, then. | | I think a frame thick enough for PCB + Chocs would then | allow both a premium mechanical keyboard in a standard | shape, as well as allowing for swapping this out for | whatever more niche arrangements. | | Whereas, for a thin, non-mechanical keyboard, the | manufacturing cost would be too high to be feasible for | anything but standard, presumably. | lawn wrote: | I would be very interested in having a programmable ergo | keyboard like the Ferris: | https://github.com/pierrechevalier83/ferris | nrp wrote: | You can certainly try! Realistically it would probably | need to be CNCed from aluminum, as plastic that thin | wouldn't be sufficiently rigid. | CarVac wrote: | How thin is the keyboard assembly? | | Would Kailh choc switches fit? | infogulch wrote: | Are the external dimensions and body interface points of | the keyboard assembly published anywhere? | asoneth wrote: | Would it be reasonable to test the waters with a survey or | some form of group buy campaign? For example, if at least | ~5k people preorder an ortholinear input cover for ~$200 | you will produce one. (Or whatever numbers are required for | you to break even.) | | And of course if the campaign fails then you can at least | say you tried. | waiseristy wrote: | What style of touchpad does the device have? Is it a force | sensor style (macbook), hinged (most recent thinkpads), or one- | big-button (also some thinkpads had this)? | | I absolutely despise the hinged touchpad on my thinkpad as you | can't click unless you're pushing on the bottom half of the | touchpad. A force sensor touchpad alone would make me put in an | order for a framework laptop | pkulak wrote: | Any word on a resolution bump? We only need a few more lines | for 2x support! | mentos wrote: | Congrats! | | Looking at the DIY Guide [0] it looks like a lot of the laptop | comes pre-assembled still (case, motherboard, screen, | keyboard). | | Is it more cost effective to do the labor on Framework's side | to ship everything more tightly together in 1 box or could we | see a 'DIY Pro' option that ships every component in its own | box? (Maybe even at greater discount?) | | Also, check out this Mechanical Watch [1] tutorial that made it | to the front page of HN last week. I could definitely see an | exploded assembly view like this being really instructional for | Framework DIY-ers. | | [0] | https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Framework+Laptop+DIY+Edition... | [1] https://ciechanow.ski/mechanical-watch/ | nrp wrote: | We wrote about this in an early blog post: | https://frame.work/blog/the-evolution-of-the-framework- | lapto... | | It would be substantially more expensive for us to ship the | laptop in a state that is less assembled. Packaging, labor | for pack-out, and increased size and weight for freight all | end up being quite a bit more than product assembly labor. | guerby wrote: | Hi nrp | | I demo-ed my frame.work laptop yesterday to | https://www.matinfo-esr.fr/ which is a single buyer entity for | all french universities and public research institutes (once | hardware is in their catalog it's click to order for | universities without administrative hassle). | | They showed interest on the non obsolescence, durability and | repairability aspect of frame.work since these features are | part of their public service mission. | | Feel free to contact me, my email is on the website listed on | my HN profile | isolli wrote: | Edited to add: nrp, I know this person and I vouch for them | :) I'm confident that they could help you enter a sizable new | market here in France. | | Laurent, content de te revoir ! Et content de voir que tu te | bats toujours pour les bonnes causes... Signe : un ex- | collegue a la BNP ;) | deng wrote: | Does the laptop support proper S3 sleep, or is this impossible | with modern Intel CPUs? | pedro2 wrote: | I was under the impression it was largely a BIOS option. | | Basically if S0idle is advertised as supported, S3 isn't. | | On recent BIOS on Thinkpads this tends to be an option which | can be toggled. | csdvrx wrote: | > On recent BIOS on Thinkpads this tends to be an option | which can be toggled. | | Just because the BIOS says so doesn't mean it will work. | | On some old Dells, the S0 implementation in the BIOS was | just so broken it straight couldn't work, even in Windows. | What saved the game was Microsoft carefully considering | such scenarios and checking the battery budget: if S0 was | draining the battery too fast for the computer to awake in | a usable state (like, with enough power to at least | boot...) it would give up on S0 and go S4 "hibernate" | instead. | | In Linux this is now called Hybrid Sleep (S0+S4) but I | don't think it existed back when I was in university. | Finding a working ACPI S3 was hard. | | On thinkpads, as explained above, a working S3 is just | sheer luck as Intel 11th gen shouldn't even support S3. On | the 12th gen, it sure doesn't. I would be curious to know | if S3 works with Linux on a X1 nano Gen2 (12th gen) | nrp wrote: | S3 was technically not supported in 11th Gen Intel Core, but | seemed to mostly work anyway. S3 is also not technically | supported in 12th Gen Intel Core, and it seems to mostly not | work at the moment, and it is unclear if that will change. | However, s0ix continues to improve substantially in recent | kernels, to the point where there doesn't seem to be a major | standby battery life advantage to s3 anymore (on 11th Gen). | mjard wrote: | Would love to see a blog post on how your team | diagnoses/profiles power issues. | ongy wrote: | Less of a question, more a note: | | In the configure page to pre-order for the 12th-Gen variant, | there's a link to the 12th-Gen variant. Feels a bit weird and | confusing to be pointed towards the shiny new variant, while | shopping for the shiny new variant. | nrp wrote: | Thanks, we are fixing this now. | Jhsto wrote: | Any plans to ship models with coreboot one day? | vaylian wrote: | Potentially: https://community.frame.work/t/free-the-ec-and- | coreboot-only... | sargun wrote: | How are you using CNC to make parts en masse in a cost | effective way? | sireat wrote: | Please, more country availability! | | I've been waiting for 12th gen Alder Lake availability and am | ready to pay. However as a EU citizen from one of the Baltic | states I am unable to do so. | | Please, tell us that this year any EU citizen will be able to | order a Framework laptop. | | I could not even find which friends in which countries to ask | to order Framework for me.. It used to be US then UK, and I | know there are a few other ones. | | Combined with a waitlist the logistics are painful. | | At least I hope that signing up for the waitlist from a | specific country counts as something. | tomerv wrote: | When will you open the option to order to Israel? | We haven't opened ordering in your region yet, but we're | looking forward to getting there! We can notify you when | ordering opens: | zucker42 wrote: | Why is the SN750/SN850 the default SSD, given it has relatively | high power consumption[1] and separately is there any reason to | believe that building a DIY version with a different SSD | wouldn't work? | | [1] https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/wd-black- | sn850-m-2-nvme... | nrp wrote: | We see folks in the community using a range of different | SSDs, but SN750/SN770/SN850 are what we have done the most | validation on. We see good perf/watt on the WDC drives. It's | unclear why Tom's Hardware was seeing poor idle power with | power saving modes on. | zucker42 wrote: | Thanks for the response. | anonporridge wrote: | It looks like you currently can't order without Windows | bundled. Will there be an option to order the kit without | Windows for a reduced price? | garettmd wrote: | There's an option to order without any OS installed | anonporridge wrote: | Hmm. It seems like the homepage link to the DIY order was | incorrectly directing to the prebuilt option. But it's | fixed now. | spiffytech wrote: | Any plans to offer larger displays? | rocqua wrote: | I see there are only DDR4 options. Presumably if you bring your | own memory, that also has to be DDR4. | | Why no DDR5? | nrp wrote: | When we started developing this product last year, we looked | at price trends and performance data on DDR4 vs DDR5 and made | the bet that DDR5 would have both price and availability | issues in 2022. That has turned out to be the case, with DDR5 | SO-DIMMs typically going for 50-70% over the equivalent DDR4 | capacity, without delivering performance improvements to | justify that premium. This is something that will improve in | the future, and we'll continue to track this for future | products. | dhc02 wrote: | When I read this, I got really excited about a company | having a well thought out, rational reason for a decision. | And then I realized how sad that is. | legalcorrection wrote: | What makes you think that people at Dell or HP don't sit | around and think about those tradeoffs? | syzygyhack wrote: | Well, there are, but the things considered acceptable | tradeoffs (like price/performance) are pretty different. | aenis wrote: | They sell to different audiences though, so maybe | optimize for different outcomes. I'd imagine DDR5 is much | easier to sell to a "pro-sumer" who games on Windows vs. | to a programmer who runs linux and can make an educated | decision re: price/perf tradeoff. | [deleted] | boppo1 wrote: | Any chance you'll eventually have a Framework with a 'clickier' | keyboard and a trackpoint like the x220? I will happily buy | your product the next time my x220 dies (instead of upgrading | it) if it has the nice clicky keyboard and a trackpoint. A | slightly thicker laptop is very much a fair trade-off. | jefurii wrote: | I'd totally buy a Framework mainboard if I could squeeze it | into my old x220 case. | duairc wrote: | Check out XY Tech who build and distribute modified | ThinkPads. Xue Yao, the person behind it, intends to build | a motherboard that will fit into an X220 case soon, | possibly this year. | | I bought an "X2100" (a ThinkPad X200 with a 10th-gen Intel | CPU) from him in 2020 and it's been fantastic. | | https://xyte.ch | boppo1 wrote: | Oh yeah this would be an option too. | philliphaydon wrote: | You have a bunch of job opening's in Taiwan but you currently | don't ship to Taiwan? :( | BlackLotus89 wrote: | Is there a plan to offer other payment methods and/or multiple | laptop orders. We want to use frame.work laptops for work and | those limitations make it really hard for us to get it through | logistics/purchase. The upgraded version would be an ideal | reason for me to rerequest this as my new main machine. | IceyEC wrote: | Looks like they support bulk ordering: | https://frame.work/support?category=business-volume- | ordering... | nrp wrote: | Yep, we currently support orders of up to 5 laptops per order | for the original 11th Gen Intel Core-based Framework Laptop. | For larger quantities for businesses, we also have additional | business-focused payment methods via Balance (including | things like NET terms). We're building ingestion flows for | that, but in the meantime you can submit a request through | our support form: | https://frame.work/support?category=business-volume- | ordering... | etbusch wrote: | Do you have any preliminary specs on how battery life differs | between these and the 11th gen equivalents? | nrp wrote: | In use battery life is largely the same, though Intel has | added some additional features with 12th Gen Intel Core that | can improve in-use power consumption in some scenarios. The | main optimizations we were able to land were in standby power | consumption. For Windows users, this means longer Modern | Standby before going into Hibernate. For Linux, more | importantly since hibernate is atypical, it means being able | to leave your laptop unplugged for much longer when not in | use. | travisby wrote: | The standby performance was what kept me from buying a | previous gen frame.work despite loving the mission and | wanting to support y'all. I was holding my time until | either the efficiency cores came along (if that has any | improvement in standby? I'm not even sure) or if you ended | up making AMD where I believe S3 sleep states still exist. | | Very exciting to hear there's an improvement in this | generation. Is that improvement due to intel changes, or | due to frame.work changes? Can you quantify the standby | improvement for linux in watts or battery % / 24h? | | Does battery life significantly change between processor | models? | | Congrats on the refresh launch! | nrp wrote: | This is a combination of hardware and firmware | improvements by both Intel on 12th Gen Intel Core | generally and us on the Framework Laptop specifically. | This is with s0ix standby, and we see ~0.4%/hour | typically in Fedora 36 on 5.17.6 with the settings in our | setup guide: .https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Fedora+36+I | nstallation+on+th... | elromulous wrote: | Thanks! How about ubuntu/debian? | csdvrx wrote: | > This is a combination of hardware and firmware | improvements by both Intel on 12th Gen Intel Core | generally and us on the Framework Laptop specifically. | This is with s0ix standby, and we see ~0.4%/hour | typically in Fedora 36 on 5.17.6 with the settings in our | setup guide | | For reference, on a Intel 11th Gen Lakefield (Lenovo X1 | Fold), using a Vanilla Windows 11 Pro with the non-Lenovo | Intel GPU driver downloaded from Intel Driver & Support | Assistant, given the results of powercfg /sleepstudy I | get a 6% of drain for 9h54 min (so about 10h) therefore | 0.6%/hour in "disconnected" (no wifi activity) S0ix | standby. | | Before, with the official Lenovo driver, it was 0.5%/h | (4h: 2% drain). I was hoping to get better results, but | this isn't so bad with about 0 optimization! | | S0ix has gone a long way, in both Linux and Windows. | etbusch wrote: | Better standby performance is great news, as I know it's | not all Framework's fault for the inconsistent standby | power drain on the current models. | gavinpc wrote: | I just ordered a Framework yesterday. I'm not interested in the | 12th gen chip, but is there any other reason I might want to | cancel & re-order today? i.e. would I be getting an older | design? | | edit: Someone also brings this up on the OP: | https://community.frame.work/t/introducing-the-new-and-upgra... | freedomben wrote: | Not GP but if it were me and you don't care about the 12th | gen chip, I definitely wouldn't cancel and re-order. I would | guess the battery improvement won't be dramatic, but you'll | end up with a little more cost and a longer wait time. The | only thing might be the new cover. The old one is pretty | flimsy and doesn't tolerate heavy abuse well. Mine is always | in my house or a backpack so it's not been a problem for me, | but if I carried it around publicly where it can be dropped | and such, I might be concerned about it. | gavinpc wrote: | Good info, thanks! For better or worse, it had already | shipped. | stingraycharles wrote: | I was waiting for the availability of the US international | keyboard for DIY builds, but I got an even better present | today. I have just made my preorder, surprised to see that a | 1280P CPU with 64GB RAM is very reasonably priced! | | I was in the market for a MacBook Pro / max upgrades as well, | mind you, so effectively I also saved a lot of money (I believe | at least a $1k price difference). | | I use Linux as my daily driver, super happy to see the better | support here as well. | | All in all, thank you for making a refreshing change in this | market. | user_7832 wrote: | Not too different from the AMD comment, is there any plan or | roadmap for future generations of (yet-unreleased) Intel chips? | | Also congrats on the update, I honestly wasn't expecting it. | I'm seriously considering a framework laptop/motherboard for my | next PC. | schmorptron wrote: | Wow, that's quite a price jump from the i5 to the i7 and then | subsequently to the 6 core one. Could you talk a bit about the | economics of having hotter / higher end chips in a notebook and | whether there are other non-obvious cost increases to them? Are | the higher end models "subsidizing" the lower end one, or is | there motherboard / chipset upgrades that need to happen as a | result? | | Really like the laptop though, and it's a close contender when | it's my time to upgrade... :) | hajile wrote: | You're paying quite a bit for vPro. | | I'd guess that the 2 extra cores don't really make much of a | difference day-to-day. If you crank up all the cores, both | chips will throttle in a laptop of that size. If you are only | running a couple single-threaded applications, the extra | 100MHz turbo hardly makes a difference (around 2-3%). | | On the flip side, the places that need/want vPro are going to | be very enterprisey and don't mind spending the extra money. | verall wrote: | Any chance for an add-in card with an Intel NIC? I have had | issues with the realtek USB-C NICs and I was hoping the 2.5GbE | would be intel. | djbusby wrote: | Something is really wacky with v-scrolling on your pre-order | page (Pixel3/Chrome) I wasn't able to complete the process. | mavili wrote: | Cthulhu_ wrote: | you're mentioning euros and GBP as well though; could | currency conversion and import taxes explain the difference? | sbelskie wrote: | It looks to me like the links for DIY and prebuilt are | reversed. | [deleted] | selykg wrote: | I love that we jump directly to "deception" rather than "this | could be a mistake" | | A better approach would've been: | | "Your website shows "Starting at 959 for the DIY option, but | when I click on it the base option starts at 1,049. Am I | missing something or is this a bug, an explanation would be | welcome." | nrp wrote: | As the sibling comment noted, the DIY button was pointing to | the pre-built configurations and vice versa. We're fixing | this now. | | Edit: This is fixed now. | yasing wrote: | what are the specs on the expansion cards? looks like usb-c.. | why not let order with 0 expansion cards and use a dongle of my | choosing? | MMS21 wrote: | I think can you do that with the DIY edition. | nrp wrote: | You can, but we don't recommend it. Many/most USB-C cables | are too thick to properly plug directly into the internal | USB-C receptacles, which would make it hard to plug in and | put stress on it. | yasing wrote: | missed that option. thanks! | Brian_K_White wrote: | You can with the diy version, but don't do that. | | Even if you only want 4 usbc ports, get 4 usbc modules and | don't be a baby about the 4x$9 for passthrough cards that | don't even have electronics. | | The usbc port inside the module bay is directly soldered to | the motherboard. The module and bay serve as an important | prophylactic to protect the usbc port from damage. | | I would only use the real port inside as a backup when some | module breaks or is lost or something. | | It IS useful, and IS an explicit selling point (to me anyway) | that you have the _option_ to do something like plug a power | supply or hub or dongle directly in there instead of it being | a proprietary connector, but that doesn 't mean do it | regularly, especially not if the machine is being used in a | portable manner where you're always plugging and unplugging. | lighttower wrote: | Will it be possible to get a keyboard like the Thinkpad. FULL | SIZE arrow keys. Menu button next to Right ALT. And PGUP PGDN | adjacent to the arrows ? | | Trackpoint is a bonus | Liskni_si wrote: | > Menu button next to Right ALT. And PGUP PGDN adjacent to | the arrows | | Keys can easily be remapped in software, so all you really is | the physical keys layout (full size arrows + two keys on | either side of the up arrow) and the trackpoint. Menu or | PrintScreen or whatever doesn't really matter much. | PetitPrince wrote: | Any chance to have a trackpoint-style pointing device in the | future? | komadori wrote: | Just to pile on, I would love to buy a Framework laptop | instead of more ThinkPads, but I really can't do without a | pointing stick keyboard. I even have a Tex Shinobi* for my | desktop! I hope that Framework or a 3rd-party accessory can | fill this gap in the market. | | * https://tex.com.tw/products/shinobi | dorfsmay wrote: | To pile on even more... A lot of Linux users used to buy | ThinkPad because of the Linux compatibility, the modularity | and the build quality, but got addicted to the trackpoint, | and this has become the only reason we keep buying them. | | A competitor would be very welcomed!whoever is going to | take that market will have followers for a long time. | jenaimarre wrote: | Piling up to the pile, the lack of trackpoint is what | prevents me to buy a framework laptop. Please :-) | pimterry wrote: | What are the constraints that are blocking wider EU | availability? | | Right now, in Europe it's only available in a handful of | countries (5 of 27). I'm in Spain, and I see I can spec a | perfect machine and get it delivered just over the border in | France, but I can't get the same thing delivered here just a | couple of hours away, which is very surprising! My | understanding was the single market & customs union etc should | make going from 1 to N EU countries pretty easy. | | Is this due to smoe regulatory issues, or needing to organize | shipping differently for every country, or waiting to include | an n key, or something else? | | Right now, I'm very seriously looking at ordering one, renting | a PO box in France and shipping the laptop here myself, which | seems a bit ridiculous. | sschueller wrote: | Will Switzerland ever be able to order them with a Swiss | German Keyboard? | 908B64B197 wrote: | > My understanding was the single market & customs union etc | should make going from 1 to N EU countries pretty easy. | | Sadly, every country insist on doing everything else his own | special snowflake way. There would have to be a lot more | harmonization for it to be that easy. | dathinab wrote: | The problem is (my guess) Logistics is hard. | | Amazon might make it look easy but it really isn't (and | Amazon is not available in all EU countries either!). | | Logistics is more then just shipping, but also returns, | repairs, availability, shipping time, shipping costs, where | and how to keep stock. And this points affect each other, | i.e. they might not have enough supply to sell to the whole | EU market etc. | | Lastly while there is a free marked in the EU if I remember | correctly there are still some differences when importing | things from outside into the EU depending on the country of | entry. Like how to fill forms and which companies you can | work with (for what prices) in given country. | mhitza wrote: | What do you mean by "Amazon is not available in all EU | countries". Do you mean like a country specific TLD? | Because that is true, but order and delivery is not a | problem from any EU country as far as I know. | ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote: | A couple years ago it wasn't available in Portugal, don't | know if it's changed. | larelogio wrote: | amazon.es is the portal for Portugal, there is not a .pt | avar wrote: | In my experience a significant part of Amazon's inventory | isn't something they'll send outside of the "domain | country", e.g. trying to send from .de or .uk (this was | before Brexit) to .nl. | | It just comes down to suppliers, who aren't serving | customers outside of select markets for whatever reason. | oblio wrote: | If it's not localized, it might as well not exist for 95% | of customers in a country. | loginatnine wrote: | I'll copy paste a comment I made here | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31096793 but I'm also | guessing logistics. | | They gave a IMO good overview of the difficulties of selling | to a new country in a previous post : | | > With our supply improving, you may be wondering when you | can order a laptop if you're outside of the US and Canada. We | selected and are bringing up our worldwide warehousing and | fulfillment partner, which is one very key part of the | equation, but it takes quite a lot more than that to enable a | complete experience in each country. Picking Germany as one | example, we need German language keyboards, a Type F power | cable, in-box paperwork and labeling in German, localization | for the Framework website, support documentation, and | checkout flow, support for local payment methods, calculation | of Euro prices and taxes, accounting support for German | income, creation of legally sound Terms of Sale, Privacy, and | Warranty policies for Germany, CE certifications, a local | Authorized Representative to back up the certifications, | determination of HS codes and tariffs, an Importer of Record | to be able to deliver duty paid, German-language in-time-zone | customer support, reverse logistics and RMA support for | returns and repairs, region-specific sourcing of off the | shelf memory and storage, trial builds of German laptops | prior to production, and back-end ERP infrastructure to tie | all of this together. That sounds like a lot, but it's | actually a drastically simplified summary. | | https://frame.work/ca/en/blog/scaling-up-infrastructure | reaperducer wrote: | A lot of that sounds like legal and paperwork problems. | | I thought the whole point of the E.U. was to break down | those cross-border paint points. Or is it still a work in | progress? Can an E.U. person say if this is going to | change? | oblio wrote: | It's very much a work in progress, especially since | overall progress is happening at the same time. | | 27 countries need to coordinate to first agree to grant | the EU the power to take over some aspects and then those | same 27 countries need to actually do the work, together | with the EU, to standardize that aspect. Then the | standard needs to be adopted and enforced. | | The EU has less power than a confederation, which is a | very weak supra-statal organization. So everything is | very, very slow. | | The EU is gradually able to do more and more, but the | time frames are decades long. | TillE wrote: | The EU means it would be entirely legal and tariff-free | for a company in France to ship a product to Spain as-is, | with minimal caveats. But that won't be a desirable | product for most Spanish customers. | | The vast majority of that list has nothing to do with | laws, but with physical requirements (keyboard and power | plug), payments (not standardized beyond bank transfers), | localization, and logistics. | riquito wrote: | I'd expect a cable C5 to Shucko to work everywhere in | Europe (at worst you change the cable for preference to | avoid an adapter) | [deleted] | nicoburns wrote: | It does help (for example the mentioned CE certification | is EU-wide). But it definitely could be better. I'd | suggest it's not likely to change significantly any time | soon. | codethief wrote: | I'd say they need none of that. Not only is barely anything | of that a legal requirement in the EU, it's also a waste of | money and resources to set this up in every country when | you're mainly addressing pro users and tinkerers. | | I bought & imported a Supernote e-ink tablet from China the | other day. The manufacturer offers none of the things | mentioned above, heck their support team barely speaks | English (but god knows they're trying!). Still everyone on | Reddit loves them because they 1) produce a killer product, | 2) provide great support when needed (e.g. send you a | replacement or fix bugs), and 3) respond to community | requests and regularly roll out software updates with | fantastic new features. | aestetix wrote: | Can existing customers "trade in" their old motherboards for | the newer models, with credit applied to make it cheaper? | nrp wrote: | We don't do trade-ins, but we have released projects to | enable re-use of old Mainboards: | https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/Mainboard | | We're seeing some interesting outputs of that: | https://github.com/brickbots/framedeck/ | https://github.com/penk/MainboardTerminal | slim wrote: | aha! | freedomben wrote: | I know your roadmap is probably packed to the brim, but if | you could help facilitate 3rd party sales that would be | useful. My wife stepped on my framework 3 days (!!) after I | finally got it back in the beginning, and you couldn't buy | parts yet so I bought a whole new framework and | cannibalized it for the screen. I've since repaired it but | if there was a way to either trade or sell with other | people in a similar boat, that would be amazing, | particularly where not all parts are available for purchase | at each given time. | aaaaaaaaata wrote: | List it on Swappa. | adastra22 wrote: | I know this is a hard ask, but consider the Apple or Lenovo | model of long support contracts. Not only does this help a | lot of buyers to get your product, but you can start | refurbishing trade-ins to get parts to service support | cases. | | In the Frame.work style you might be able to do it via a | more DIY approach. | carreau wrote: | Thoughts of whether the marketplace could be used for | "certified" refurbished older components ? | redconfetti wrote: | It would be nice if older Framework hardware could be | donated to some form of charity. | EastSmith wrote: | Not a question for the announcement, but the location page is | missing countries, for example Bulgaria. This prevents me from | even telling you I want to order form here (Bulgaria). | | https://frame.work/locale/edit | nrp wrote: | Thanks, captured on our internal bug tracker. | darau1 wrote: | Hi! Same for Guyana (GUY) | cf wrote: | I love everything about what you have planned. Is there | anything in the works for creating more keyboard options? While | mechanical keyboards might be too impractical, even something | with bigger arrow keys would be nice. | dorfsmay wrote: | The day there is a ThinkPad style keyboard (trackpoint, 3 | button) and a matte screen, I'll order one immediately, and | assuming it lives up to the expectation, I'd order more after | that quickly. | nspattak wrote: | I would really like to buy one BUT I find it a little bit too | expensive, especially the price difference for better CPUs I | find proportionate. (i would be slightly more tempted if it was | for an amd 6000 cpu, they are much better in perf/power, I hope | you will reconsider in the next generation when the iGPU will | be RDNA based) | yumraj wrote: | Any chance of 15"-16" in near future? | uoaei wrote: | I wondered this too, but they will need a way to be able to | plug the same Mainboard into a new chassis such that the | Expansion Cards work correctly, or else design a new | Mainboard with increased size (or I guess longer Expansion | Cards, but that seems silly). | pmontra wrote: | Of course (?) they need to build a larger motherboard. I'd | be really tempted to buy a 15" model especially with a | touchpad with 3 hardware buttons (I'm not considering any | laptop without them) and a keyboard without numberpad (very | important but a little less than the hw buttons.) | defaultwizard wrote: | Is there any plans (that you can talk about) for a slightly | larger model with maybe more ports? | | I want one of these so bad but if you end up doing a larger one | shortly down the line i'm going to be really gutted. | | Edit: also any plans for a blank ISO keyboard to match the | blank ANSI one? | mssdvd wrote: | What are the main reasons for not shipping to other EU / EEA | countries? | nrp wrote: | Laptops are uniquely challenging in that each additional | country has its own keyboard language, increasing the number | of SKUs we need to manage and hold inventory for. This is | beyond the normal challenges of entering new markets. We | enumerated this in a blog post here: | https://frame.work/blog/scaling-up-infrastructure | | We are continuing to build the infrastructure and keyboards | to expand into more countries though! | [deleted] | skummetmaelk wrote: | Please don't let weird localized keyboards block this. We | don't care about that stuff. People buying framework | laptops are able to change their keyboard layout in | software and use it without having to look at the symbols | present on the keyboard. Yes the physical layouts are also | different, but that really doesn't matter. Just make it | available and forget about these tiny issues that your | target market of power users don't care about. | | I want to throw my money at you, but I can't because the | laptop is not available for shipping to the country I live | in. | sondr3 wrote: | There are probably many potential users who wouldn't care, | I've lived in Norway my whole life but my keyboards have | been exclusively with an English layout for more than ten | years now. If the thing holding you back from expanding to, | among others, Norway is the lack of a nb-NO keyboard, | please reconsider :) | [deleted] | oblio wrote: | Just make the US keyboard version available everywhere and | worry about local keyboards later, when people ask for | them. | | Your audience is probably 90% devs and sysadmins, who most | definitely can at least handle en_us. | 5e92cb50239222b wrote: | Hmm... I don't see how that prevents you from shipping | whatever is available. Many of us don't care about | localized keyboards. I want a US layout. I dropped an email | to your support almost a year ago with a request to add my | country to the list, got "no problem, check back in a | week", and the country still isn't there. | vodkapump wrote: | I know this gets asked a lot and isn't really about this new | upgraded model but.. | | Any news on plans for AMD models? | coder543 wrote: | Framework has said many times that they won't discuss future | product plans. I doubt they want to experience the Osborne | Effect. | samtheprogram wrote: | Osborne Effect: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect | simonh wrote: | Does anyone know if the Framework laptop use a mainboard form | factor that is available with AMD chips? | | The modularity of some components can be assumed because they | are industry standards, like wifi modules I suppose. Other | components perhaps Framework have designed their own range of | modules with a common form factor, but it must be very | expensive to engineer a compatible mainboard in the same form | factor with a different chipset, unless they are using an | existing standardised design. | Sebb767 wrote: | I'm not totally sure, but I think their mainboard is of | their own design. They would need to adapt, but they could | do it. I also think the differences are not too large, | since most mainboard manufacturers offer surprisingly | similar mainboards for either brand. | criddell wrote: | Why AMD? | | Why is there so little interest in ARM-based Linux laptops? | Does AMD (or Intel) have anything even close in performance / | watt that one can get from an ARM-based system? | nicoburns wrote: | AMD and Intel both have processors that perform _much_ | better than anything ARM-based except Apple 's M1 | processors (which of course nobody else has access to). | That might change once Qualcomm release the new design they | are supposedly working on, but that's not available yet. | criddell wrote: | I was thinking recent CPUs in the Exynos line were | supposed to be pretty good. I never realized Apple was | _that_ far ahead... | nicoburns wrote: | I think Apple's chips aren't that far off being twice as | fast as Exynos chips in single-core performance. Whereas | the latest AMD and Intel chips are more or less on a par. | | https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu- | apple_a14_bionic-v... | criddell wrote: | The 990 is pretty old. I think the latest is the 2200. | | https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu- | apple_a14_bionic-v... | mrtranscendence wrote: | The A14 is a generation old at this point. This is a more | relevant comparison: | | https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu- | apple_a15_bionic_5... | Sebb767 wrote: | ARM-based laptops are definitely more niche and if you | don't have a large company like Apple forcing the adaption, | you'll have a hard time to support proprietary software, | including stuff like drivers. It would absolutely be cool | to have an open ARM-based high-end laptop, but it's not | drop-in like AMD. | robotnikman wrote: | Mainly the non-standardization of ARM hardware currently is | my guess. For x86 a lot of it is standardized and well | known. | | There was a good thread here the other day on the subject | of ARM hardware and the difficulties of things such as | device trees and odd boot processes | | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31409273 | robotnikman wrote: | I think the main issue with AMD might be they lack support | for Thunderbolt (last I've heard anyways) | capableweb wrote: | > Any news on plans for AMD models? | | This is the only thing stopping me from getting a Framework | laptop right now. I'd pay a premium for it as well. | hericium wrote: | Pre-Pluton chips, though. | chrisseaton wrote: | Why is AMD so important to you? Are there any instruction | set extensions these days that are only available on AMD? I | can only think of things that are the other way around - | only on Intel. And if you need something niche like some | SIMD extension I guess you're running a server not a | laptop? | Markoff wrote: | I'd guess much better VFM. | CoastalCoder wrote: | > Why is AMD so important to you? | | Not the GP, but here's my reason: | | For dGPUs, I strongly prefer AMD over nVidia because of | Linux driver support. In recent years, most laptops with | an AMD dGPU have AMD CPUs. | | It's possible that my calculus will change in the next | few years. E.g., if any of these things come to market: | | - good laptop with Intel CPU and AMD dGPU | | - AMD CPU with a _fast_ iGPU. (I know these are in the | pipeline, but I 'm waiting for benchmarks.) | | - Intel's upcoming laptop iGPUs / dGPUs perform well | _and_ have good Linux drivers. | | - nVidia's efforts to open-source parts of their Linux | drivers address my personal pain points. | xd1936 wrote: | Sure, but none of these affect the Framework Laptop. This | computer does not have discrete graphics. | freeopinion wrote: | Why is Intel 12th Gen more important? | | AMD is important for multiple reasons. | | First, it shows that they listened to feedback. From way | over here in the corner it seems like AMD has been the | most requested feature for the Framework. | | Second, many people perceive that AMD outperforms Intel. | | Third, many people think it is extremely important to | reward positive competition in the market place. | | Eighth, it would truly, truly prove the upgradeability | and versatility of the Framework. Then we could move on | to imagining dual^H^H^H^Hquad-Arm boards and RISCV boards | and other fantasies. | dathinab wrote: | > First, it shows that they listened to feedback. From | way over here in the corner it seems like AMD has been | the most requested feature for the Framework. | | I would argue one of the most glaring problems with | selling Framework laptops was that they where "still" on | Intel 11th Gen hardware which is often perceived as "not | so grate" of a choice. | | I'm sure they would love to also ship AMD based mobos | (and Arm too) but it needs to be profitable, i.e. the | additional sales gained through also supporting AMD must | outclass the higher logistic cost as well as higher | development cost. This might not seem like a big deal but | from the little experience I have with logistics and | things like maintaining Intel and AMD BIOS support, still | having pressure to also ship a faster Intel mother board | etc. I highly duped this makes any sense at this point in | time. | | Also, yes many people perceive AMD outperforms Intel, but | many also perceive the opposite! Sure competition is | grate, but Framework is not yet a well established | company. Lastly I don't think they need to technically | prove that upgrading to AMD or ARM is possible, the | problem is not technology but logistics, resources (BIOS | maintenance, testing, etc), supply-chains and potentially | shitty contracts and practices by Intel (and other | Companies). | | So IMHO they need to first establish themself well, and | then branch out. | capableweb wrote: | It's simply a political/better CPU market perspective. | Intel had the entire market for so long, and therefore | stopped improving. They are getting some fire behind | their behind-parts now, but that took a good while. I'm | cheering and voting with my wallet for the underdog in | the market to make the whole market more competitive. At | least that's what I like to believe. | Teknoman117 wrote: | Voting with my wallet. Intel bent everyone over a barrel | for a decade and I don't want to give them another dollar | if I can avoid it. | quantumfissure wrote: | Better power handling per performance ratio, at least | when compared to previous Intel generations. | | Better integrated graphics, especially with the upcoming | line, if what AMD says holds true. | | Non-toxic approach to business. | | Dr. Lisa Su has done incredible things with that company, | and I'll happily support a group that recognizes the need | for experience in top tech positions vs. | MBAs/Lawyers/Fund Managers/etc... | peatmoss wrote: | Integrated graphics is a big deal. I was talking to a | friend just this morning who has been waiting to buy a | Framework until there is a gaming capable option. Intel | integrated graphics isn't viable, but AMD integrated | graphics meet a casual gaming bar. | sascha_sl wrote: | > Non-toxic approach to business. | | Unfortunately it seems the pendulum swings on this one at | least a bit. Unless you want a flagship CPU, you'll wait | a good half year to a year to get half as much choice of | budget CPUs with rather extreme handicap (cache). | | Also half of them are OEM only. | | Try to find a good current gen CPU for a small to mid | sized NAS in their lineup, it's not easy. | kouteiheika wrote: | > Unless you want a flagship CPU | | Even if you want a flagship CPU; e.g. see the newest 5xxx | series Threadrippers which were only released after a | year and half and even then they are only available in | overpriced e-waste systems from Lenovo where the CPU is | locked down to the motherboard and won't work anywhere | else. | | AMD is not your friend. Just like every other huge | corporation. | mrtranscendence wrote: | It's relative. AMD is "your friend" as long as it's on | the back foot, so to speak. Their GPU pricing remains | much better than Nvidia's, even with the extreme | availability issues over the past two years, and some of | their actions on the GPU side are more consumer-friendly | (such as offering open-source Linux drivers). But when in | a more favorable position with respect to their | competitor their behavior can and does change. | | > where the CPU is locked down to the motherboard | | Don't quote me on this, but I think I heard that this | wasn't on by default? | csdreamer7 wrote: | Yep, the 6000 series has RDNA2 graphics. | mhitza wrote: | Because at the moment AMD is the least scummy of the two | x86 chip manufacturers. Intel as the only feasible player | in town for a good segment of time, asked premium prices | for meager performance increases, generation by | generation. | | Mainly is just out of principle and voting with my | wallet. | Andrew_nenakhov wrote: | I was choosing AMD even when they didn't have the better | processors on the market, for this very reason. | Teknoman117 wrote: | Exactly. If we're going to be told to vote with our | wallets all the time, you better let me vote with my | wallet. | | I bought an ASUS ZenBook earlier this year because as | much as I like Framework's product, I don't want to give | Intel another dollar after they bent me over a barrel for | a decade. | lhl wrote: | For me personally, my preference primarily comes down to | extreme differences in low-intensity/idle power usage of | Ryzen 6000 vs Intel 12th gen. There aren't true "apples | to apples" (same chassis/model, but AMD vs Intel) | comparisons yet, although those should be coming in the | next month or so, but here's an example of how efficient | the Ryzen 6000s are: https://youtu.be/3bSetglEPOY?t=170 | | For people that need to use their devices on the go, I | think it's a no brainer to prefer a Ryzen 6000 vs Intel. | | The RDNA2-based Radeon 680M iGPU also significantly | outperforms the (admittedly, much improved) Intel Xe | iGPUs in 3D rendering. In synthetics, the new Radeon | iGPUs are going head to head with Nvidia 1650 Max-Q | dGPUs. This probably doesn't much matter if you aren't | doing any gaming, but if you are, it means you can play | most modern titles reasonably on the road in a thin and | light form factor without giving up any battery life when | you aren't. | dont__panic wrote: | I think it goes something like this: | | - no Management Engine | | - chips that don't turbo boost themselves into throttling | | - not supporting a company with a toxic approach to | business | | I believe AMD outperforms Intel when you're targeting | mobile performance/battery life, rather than "moar CPU" | workloads. Though that might change now that Intel is | using their own approach to performance cores. Still, | given the last decade of Intel development, they don't | exactly have my trust that they'll execute performance | cores without serious hiccups. | jeffbee wrote: | > - chips that don't turbo boost themselves into | throttling | | Your level of understanding about how CPUs control their | frequency, voltage, and power is evidently "none". Why | spread comments like this which only serve to confuse and | mislead readers? | fsflover wrote: | > no Management Engine | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_PSP | sascha_sl wrote: | The PSP is a lot slimmer than Intel ME. It also doesn't | randomly yank traffic for specific ports from your | Ethernet. | trinsic2 wrote: | I havent looked at the presentation yet, but are you | saying the PSP, like intels ME could be doing nefarious | things since its proprietary and closed? Do you have a | link to information on the network capturing thing? I | mean is that really a thing? | | I have heard of these things before but I am not quite | sure what the possibilities are. Do you have a link that | can summarize what this actual means in terms of security | concerns? | sascha_sl wrote: | CVE-2017-5689 | google234123 wrote: | How do you know there isn't an undiscovered CVE for AMD? | There's probably maybe 10x more security research focused | on Intel | fsflover wrote: | Any good link with the details? | sascha_sl wrote: | There was a good talk with an overview (as well as owning | it) at 36c3. | | https://media.ccc.de/v/36c3-10942-uncover_understand_own_ | -_r... | [deleted] | helloworld653 wrote: | How many external 1080p60 monitors can this drive with the laptop | open? 4? | nrp wrote: | Yep, you can use up to four displays in total. That includes | the internal display, so using four external monitors would | mean turning off the internal one. | tomrod wrote: | I'm on an 11th gen and just ordered another one a week ago. | | Great daily driver! | Sebb767 wrote: | Same, I ordered just a few days ago! Pity, after waiting for so | long, I should've just waited a few days longer and save 70EUR. | Still, looking forward to finally having one :) | SemanticStrengh wrote: | When will you support a 2K (ideally) (or 4K) OLED panel? I'm a | software developer and I'm not going back to the blurry text era | and the non-contrasting movie/games era. Also come on you need | thunderbolt support, egpu is a key advantage in 2022. So I | appreciate the concept but currently you are not enough for my | needs. | pocholo wrote: | stakkur wrote: | I like the concept of this laptop. I really want to like the | laptop itself, enough to buy one. | | But for me, it always comes down to the experience of the user | interface--the keyboard, trackpad, and screen. And that always | brings me back to Macbooks and ThinkPads. I'm a Linux fan, but | 'ability to run a specific OS' is not even in my top three must | have features. | justin66 wrote: | > We've redesigned our lid assembly for significantly improved | rigidity | | They should make this part available to existing users as a | warranty replacement. It sounds like they've addressed a common | complaint on their support forums. | | The lid that flops over because of the hinge's weakness, and the | absurd excuses made by company personnel (they claim it was | designed this way "to accommodate opening the laptop with one | hand," as if the people who open a laptop with one hand do not | need the lid to stay upright) has been a great disappointment for | me with this laptop. It is a design defect, not a feature, for | the hinge to be this weak. | | edit: apparently they're talking about this, so I guess we're | stuck with the weak hinge: | | https://frame.work/products/top-cover-cnc | nrp wrote: | If the lid drops when the laptop is stationary, the hinge is | out of spec and we'll send you a replacement through our | support channel. | justin66 wrote: | I'll look into that. Thanks! | ncallaway wrote: | As feedback, I had the same problem that you had. I reached | out to support, they had me send in a video, agreed that | the hinge was out of spec and mailed me a new one. | | I installed the new hinge, and it's more rigid. I no longer | have the problem of the laptop falling open when typing on | my lap. | | Highly recommend contacting support for the hinge issue if | you have it to. | theferalrobot wrote: | What if our replacement hinges are dropping when stationary | too? | coder543 wrote: | My framework laptop had no issues with the hinge whatsoever. It | honestly might have been a little too stiff for my tastes, but | it functioned perfectly, and the screen never budged without me | moving it intentionally. (Past tense is because I recently sold | it as I was using my M1 MBA way more often, mainly due to how | long the framework laptop took to come out of sleep mode by | comparison. This isn't really a slight against Framework... | Apple just did an unreasonably good job with M1 in some areas.) | | I would not say the hinge issues have been a "common" | complaint. They've been the _most common_ complaint that I 've | seen on Reddit, but still rare, especially once you factor in | that people usually only go online to complain, and anyone with | the hinge issue isn't going to hesitate, since it would be | understandably annoying. | BaseballPhysics wrote: | I have to admit, after roughly 9 months of use, while | initially I didn't have issues with the hinge, I've | definitely noticed the display tends to flop around when I'm | picking up and moving the laptop, or when riding the bus | where the laptop is shifting around. For context, my previous | laptop was a 5th gen X1 Carbon and I never had that issue | with that machine. | | I also can't shake the feeling that the hinge has loosened up | a bit, but that's purely anecdotal. | | My guess is this is both a combination of a slightly less | stiff hinge combined with the taller 3:2 display, which leads | to more torque being applied to the hinge when the laptop is | moving around. | justin66 wrote: | > I also can't shake the feeling that the hinge has | loosened up a bit, but that's purely anecdotal. | | I feel like the amount of resistance the lid has to | flopping over actually _varies,_ which is strange. | justin66 wrote: | > I would not say the hinge issues have been a "common" | complaint. They've been the most common that I've seen | | Thanks for sharing your insight, you've really clarified | things. _Ahem._ | | > especially once you factor in that people usually only go | online to complain. | | I've never complained about it before on their forums because | once a few people let the company know about the defect, and | the company gives their lame excuse for why they've | implemented such a weak hinge (one handed opening!), there is | no point. | | It actually is nice to hear that your hinge wasn't weak as | that might mean the warranty replacement nrp mentioned is | worth doing. I do hope - the laptop has some nice features | otherwise. | foodstances wrote: | They upgraded the hinges at some point during manufacturing to | address the screen falling down during light movement: | | https://frame.work/products/display-hinge-kit?v=FRANFB0001 | | I believe this upgraded lid assembly is to address the screen | wobbling during typing. It's a very thin lid and has a lot of | flex, so the tighter hinge just transfers the force into the | lid, causing it to wobble. Hopefully this will be eliminated | with this upgraded lid. | coldtea wrote: | > _We continue to focus on solid Linux support, and we're happy | to share that Fedora 36 works fantastically well out of the box, | with full hardware functionality including WiFi and fingerprint | reader support. Ubuntu 22.04 also works great after applying a | couple of workarounds, and we're working to eliminate that need._ | | This disclaimer -from a company that picks their hw components | none the less- is cold water to Linux in the desktop as any sort | of "solved" problem | anon_123g987 wrote: | There's no such operating system as "Linux". I don't know what | these "workarounds" are exactly, but if it's something like | installing a driver for a fingerprint reader that's present in | a standard Fedora distro, but not in a vanilla Ubuntu then I | don't see the problem. Of course it won't work _out of the | box_. | nrp wrote: | We're exploring if there is any other workaround, but it is | likely that until a 22.04 point release goes out with a new | kernel, it will require installing a newer kernel from | Ubuntu's kernel PPA to make suspend work properly. | DeathArrow wrote: | I'm wondering what's the battery life and power usage under | Linux. For many laptops this is a problem. | jakamau wrote: | I've had my framework laptop for about six months and I'm not | really a linux adept (I basically just read online guides and | bash on my keyboard until the problem fixes itself). But | honestly, I genuinely enjoy using the framework laptop with | Fedora. | | The battery life during light(7w)-moderate(12w) usage is | approximately 5 hours. | | Stand-by was the real issue in my opinion (it would drain | 1-2%/hour). I got around this issue by setting up a swap | partition and forcing hibernation after 30 minutes of sleep | standby. | | Apparently there are some new tweaks that were added to | improve standby, but I am happy with where I am and don't | want to change anything, so I can't speak to their efficacy. | spaniard89277 wrote: | Do you have tlp installed? | jklinger410 wrote: | Had this issue with System76, which offers NVIDIA cards that | suck on Linux, and various hardware that requires firmware not | in the linux kernel or anywhere else, where you have to install | and update that firmware separately (like windows). | | All they make are Linux computers and they | couldn't/didn't/wouldn't for some reason produce a laptop that | just natively worked. | Accacin wrote: | Recently I built a new PC, and after having Nvidia driver | issues for years on my old PC, I decided I'd go AMD instead. | | After at least 10 years using Linux, I'm back to Windows. | | The main issue I had was a very intermittent flicker on my | screen when I'm on 144Hz. This happened on Wayland and X11. | Almost every single distribution had this issue; OpenSUSE, | Fedora, Arch (and derivatives), Debian, PopOS. | | The _only_ distribution where this wasn 't a problem was | Ubuntu which worked great for a while, but I updated and had | a few issues. Also, realised after briefly trying other | distributions that Snaps were _really_ slow, so I just couldn | 't stay with Ubuntu. I tried disabling Snaps, but then the | store broke and the non-snap store kept crashing (I generally | install software via terminal but it's nice to browse and see | what's out there occasionally). | | Oddly, I've found Windows 11 mostly okay - at least I have no | flicker at 144Hz. | arghwhat wrote: | Well to be fair, no desktop experience is solved if one isn't | allowed to apply adjustments for their hardware (drivers, user | space tools and whatnot). | | My experience on Linux certainly isn't flawless, but I have | about as many issues whenever I'm handed a Windows laptop as | others have trying Linux. Computers suck. | jfb wrote: | I mean, Apple makes the whole stack, more or less, and I have | trouble there, too. So, honestly, yeah. Software is a | goddamned disaster. | throw93232 wrote: | It is laptop, not desktop ;) | MetaWhirledPeas wrote: | Not if you buy the mainboard and mount it in a little desktop | case! | coldtea wrote: | Desktop Linux was historically meant as opposed to server. | | Plus, most actual desk tops today feature laptops. | | So still a desktop use case: it's just not in "tower" or | "mini-tower" or "all-in-one" form. | smallerfish wrote: | Linux on a desktop is really quite rock solid (caveat | assuming you do research if you are too cutting edge on | hardware). Linux in laptops are not as good on battery life | and 4k external monitor support has issues (though less so | if wayland works on your hardware). The two workarounds | they mention for Ubuntu on their page are adding a kernel | option to improve suspend battery life, and adding a line | in the alsa conf to enable the driver that recognizes the | microphone jack they're using...you can hardly extrapolate | from those to "desktop linux is teh pits". | noirbot wrote: | To be fair to them, _desktop_ Linux is a fair bit easier than | laptop Linux. Laptops have many of the components that have | been the most neglected/hardest to work with - wifi cards, | bluetooth, trackpads, fingerprint readers... All all the worse | because there's often less or no choice of provider for the | components. | | For the most part, on a full desktop, you can avoid most of the | need for those, or buy a part that works better. | nrp wrote: | To be fair to Linux on the desktop, one of the major challenges | is synchronization between new hardware platforms (12th Gen | Intel Core), and distro cycles (22.04). We fully expect that | the next point release of 22.04 will have a kernel that works | well out of the box with 12th Gen. Fedora seems to more | consistently be able to go out with more recent kernels. Fedora | 36 with 5.17.6 works smoothly. | orangeoxidation wrote: | Are distros doing too much customization? | | The kernel is famously backward compatible, upgrading during | a distro cycle shouldn't be a problem. Yet fedora doing so is | somehow exceptional. | nrp wrote: | You can manually update to a newer kernel and generally | have it work as end user. For a distro maintainer though, | you have to pick a stable target to develop, validate, and | release against. Fedora seems to typically be slightly more | aggressive on their intercepts than other major distros. | deepsun wrote: | Used it for half a year. All works awesome, but I don't know how | to update firmwares on my Linux Mint/Ubuntu. There are some | guidelines on website, but they don't seem official, and say | something like "you may need to fix your bootloader after" which | sounds scary that I'll break my perfectly working system. | Macha wrote: | This isn't "run out and buy" level (that would be 15", AMD 5000 | or Intel 12th gen with a dgpu), but it's probably enough to be my | next laptop unless something drastic changes in the market by | then. | nerdjon wrote: | it is exciting to see an upgradeable laptop actually be | upgradable. | | But I have to wonder what the market for this is? The primary use | case I see for something like this is a gaming laptop, which this | is just nowhere near being suitable for. | | Outside of that use case, for the vast majority of compute | workloads is being able to upgrade really a need? I have 2 | laptops (well technically 3 but I don't count my work one | really). A gaming laptop and my Mac as my primary computer | outside of gaming. I tend to upgrade my Mac maybe... 4 or 5 | years. Maybe even more than that. My Mac I got in 2019 and feel | no need to upgrade anything in it. | | My gaming laptop on the other hand... If I had the ability to | upgrade that I would likely upgrade parts every year or 2... like | a good a gaming desktop. | | What am I missing here outside of the excitement of an | upgradeable laptop? I don't want to diminish the work on that, I | am just unclear the use. | victor9000 wrote: | A few weeks ago I spilled an entire cup of sugary espresso on | my framework laptop which completely ruined my keyboard by | making it a sticky mess. You know what I did? I ordered a | replacement keyboard kit for $99, installed it in ~5 minutes, | and I haven't thought about it since. | | Some other part will fail in the future, or I'll spill another | cup of coffee, and when that happens all I need to worry about | is swapping out the affected parts. And that's great compared | to my previous alternatives with an XPS, which was basically to | buy a brand new laptop. | torginus wrote: | Can't you do the same thing with a Thinkpad? | Eduard wrote: | (Putting aside that Thinkpad is a specific brand, whereas | keyboard replacability is generally device-specific) | | Framework keyboard replacement guide: https://guides.frame. | work/Guide/Keyboard+Replacement+Guide/8... | | ThinkPad T470s keyboard replacement guide: https://support. | lenovo.com/de/en/solutions/pd104683-removal-... | | That Thinkpad model's keyboard replacement steps look way | easier than Framework's. | angulardragon03 wrote: | Looks like 12th gen DIY edition is EUR60 more than the MSRP of | the old model. Wonder if the price will come down further for the | old model. | | EDIT: site was down while I was checking this, the 11th Gen DIY | edition is EUR829, so EUR130 cheaper than 12th gen. | nrp wrote: | We announced newly reduced pricing for the original 11th Gen | Intel Core-based Framework Laptops. We've sold out of some SKUs | and have limited numbers of the remaining ones, so that new | reduced pricing is likely the final pricing until we run out of | those. | WrtCdEvrydy wrote: | angulardragon03 wrote: | Interesting! I was looking at picking one up with my next pay | check, so I'll see what's available. Thanks! | post_break wrote: | Will board schematics be available for repairs? Something Louis | has been asking for. | nrp wrote: | We recently released the subset of schematics that we were able | to. Louis did a recent video on this: | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cJj8PUY0DU | post_break wrote: | When you say able to, do you mean a vendor is holding you | back from releasing more? No problem if you can't answer. | Sorry my question was for this new laptop, I did see you guys | released the one for the previous one which is awesome. | varispeed wrote: | It's likely that the schematics cannot be copyrighted, | which means once they are released anyone can spin up their | own boards. | | You could probably see a flood of cheap Chinese | motherboards or entire laptop knock offs. | post_break wrote: | If that were the case we'd see macbook motherboards, | since Louis is able to get entire board schematics. | varispeed wrote: | I don't think what Louis has are full schematics. You | could probably reverse engineer board view into a | schematic, but from what I saw in his videos there was a | lot of missing information - but enough to conduct a | repair. That being said - even if Apple has released a | full schematic, without datasheets for the parts made | specifically for Apple, you wouldn't get an idea of | operation of certain bits, so it could be difficult to | replace these with off the shelf components. | post_break wrote: | You are going in circles. I ask if they will have | schematics for repairs, he says they do, you chime in | saying "if they release schematics anyone can build a | board", I tell you that Louis has even more detailed | schematics for macbooks, and now you're saying those | aren't schematics... can we just agree on something, I'm | asking if they will have whatever you call the things so | you can look up traces, components, voltages, to repair a | board? | | All I'm asking is if they will be releasing | schematics/board views/whatever they are called for this | laptop. | tofuahdude wrote: | How do these intel chips standup against the current M1 lineup? | | I'd love to swap away from Apple to Framework but I gotta say, | the current Pro M1 is pretty remarkable. | | Is intel in the same ballpark with the 12th gen? | pmlnr wrote: | Please, please, please make s keyboard option that has full size | arrow keys, dedicated pgup, pgdown, del, ins, home, end. The | current laptop keyboards, apart from thinkpads, are a joke for | those who want to work on them, the framework, sadly, is | included. | | I'd also love a trackpoint with 3 dedicated buttons but I'll keep | dreaming. | silencedogood3 wrote: | If I wait six more months to buy will they have a really solid | linux story? | silencedogood3 wrote: | Does anyone know if this would be difficult to connect to a | second monitor? | cosmiccatnap wrote: | Sad to see still no 15/16 inch variant, amd edition, or choice of | black shell. | | That being said I'm glad to see they are following through on the | things they promise like upgradable cores. In theory I take it | this means if you currently have a framework laptop you can just | buy the compute core and upgrade. | paskozdilar wrote: | Do Frameworks laptop work without proprietary | software/firmware/whateverware? | | If you can run a 100% free software GNU/Linux distribution such | as Trisquel on Framework laptops, that would be a definite buy | for me. | qboltz wrote: | They do, I run GNU Guix but you have to buy a wifi card that's | free software compatible, which must be bought somewhere else. | | https://www.thinkpenguin.com/gnu-linux/wireless-n-dual-band-... | cyanydeez wrote: | When we gonna get AMD | doyougnu wrote: | I recently bought a framework laptop for a daily driver when I'm | not on my desktop. For context I was running NixOS on an old 2014 | macbook air, and I work on the glasgow haskell compiler in my day | job so I do a lot of CPU heavy tasks. | | I've got to say, as long as these things are being produced I'll | never go back. They are just too good and I cannot recommend them | highly enough. One of the things that didn't occur to me before I | bought it was that _because_ of the modular design I can switch | the side the power port is on. That may not seem like much but it | was a revelation the first time I sat on the couch and thought | "huh I really wish this was over on that side....wait a minute!". | | I've also had absolutely no problems with NixOS on my machine, | even my apple earbuds easily connect via bluetooth, something | that I never quite got working on my macbook. | | 10/10 This is damn close to my dream laptop and I'm excited a new | version is on the way. | rcoder wrote: | > 10/10 This is damn close to my dream laptop and I'm excited a | new version is on the way. | | Agreed, with the seemingly-trivial but actually real | elaboration: I'm excited because there's a new version on the | way and _I can decide, piece by piece, which parts of the | upgrade I want._. | | Having the upgrade be a literal circuit board I can swap out is | 100% the value prop for Framework and I am likewise a very | happy customer to see it, even if I'm happy with the current | performance of my laptop and don't need to upgrade. | smoldesu wrote: | I can't even imagine how good these'll be on Alder Lake... | might have to grab that i5 model. | gigatexal wrote: | The new revision with the 12-gen chips does it fix the | complaints people have had about loud fan noise? | | I am super on the fence between this and an arm mac - this is | super customizable but the arm chips in the air are silent -- | no fan. | popol12 wrote: | If you're on Linux, this does the job | https://community.frame.work/t/linux-fan-speed-controller- | wi... | dheera wrote: | Same. Only things I wish were slightly better build quality and | also I've had issues with Wi-Fi disappearing of late [0], fast | battery drain during suspend, as well as battery refusing to | charge from zero but there's a workaround involving a dumb USB | charger. Kind of hoping these are just early adopter issues and | that they'll be dealt with over time. | | I really hope some community hardware experts can design more | modules for this thing. I want an IMU+GPS+Barometer module | among other things, but I'm a software person and don't know | how to design PCBs. | | [0] https://community.frame.work/t/wi-fi-disappeared-and- | reappea... | jerryzh wrote: | To be fair when MacBook move to typec one can charge on both | sides for many years, and I kind of look forward to a future | when all port use typec But when it comes to inside Mac by no | mean compares to framework | morganvachon wrote: | Except the M1 Air and 13 inch M1 Pro reverted to left side | only (the new models with M1 Pro/Max chips have an extra | USB-C on the opposite side). It's my only real gripe with the | M1 laptops compared to older Intel Macs. | | Of course, the Framework is the polar opposite of the M1 | Macs' locked down "appliance" feel. I'm enjoying the progress | being made with OpenBSD and Asahi Linux on the M1 platform, | but the hardware itself remains impossible to upgrade or | repair for mere mortals. The Framework is the pinnacle of | truly owning your laptop while not sacrificing speed and a | crowd pleasing design. | emiller88 wrote: | FYI, we've added support for the framework to nixos-hardware. I | appreciate any feedback or improvements anyone has! | https://github.com/NixOS/nixos-hardware/blob/master/framewor... | fuzzybear3965 wrote: | Thank you!!! | fuzzybear3965 wrote: | Ditto. | nikodunk wrote: | Agreed! Got one from work, and it's a beast on Fedora 36 with | the 11th gen. Even the discrete-ish Iris Xe graphics are | surprisingly fast. So cool that we'll actually be able to | update the innards in a few years as necessary to keep it | feeling fresh. | | Edit: A small but nice design feature is the light that comes | on to imply whether the usb-c port is charging properly. Coming | from a mac that removed this feature when usb-c charging was | introduced, this is a huge luxury. | fossuser wrote: | Does suspend work reliably? Is battery life ok? Does the | trackpad suck? | | I'm tempted but every time I've tried so far to leave Mac | hardware I regret it - seems even harder now with M1 | performance. | | Still, the framework laptop is super cool. Might be worth | trying anyway. | SkyMarshal wrote: | Yeah it's hard to beat just running linux in a VM on a Mac, | especially with Mac's new hardware. Framework's modularity is | probably the most compelling alternate value proposition, | though. | [deleted] | wollsmoth wrote: | You can basically do this with macs if you still use the usb-c | charger. Even with the new ones they still charge through those | ports on either side. | | But yeah, being able to swap those ports is great. I'm feeling | the pain of having only 1 hdmi out on my laptop and the ability | to just add one on sounds amazing. | k8sToGo wrote: | Isn't there an issue if you plug in on the wrong side? I | remember something about CPU and throttling. | philistine wrote: | That was the Intel models. | kibwen wrote: | Do Macs still favor charging via the USB-C ports on the right | side? IIRC charging on the left caused | overheating/throttling. I'd be interested to know if the | Framework also favors a specific port for charging. | happyopossum wrote: | Not anymore. The latest Intel and all of the M1 based ones | work fine from either side with no heat issues. | philistine wrote: | This sounds like a thing that happened on the Intel ones. | The M1 laptops have a large cooling overhead that would | render the point moot. | conradev wrote: | One other difference is that the M1 MacBook Pros only | have one port on the right side and two on the left now, | which has been annoying a few times | wollsmoth wrote: | Oh Idk actually. I was happy to learn it still works on the | magsafe ones so I can still use the old charger though. | shepherdjerred wrote: | https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/363337/how-to- | find... | KptMarchewa wrote: | That was an intel mac thing. | fiddlerwoaroof wrote: | This is interesting: over the last several months, a friend has | been running NixOS on a Framework and has been told by | Framework employees that they can't help him with Linux kernel | issues because he's using an unsupported OS and he's also had | lots of complaints about battery life and power management. | | I love the idea of the Framework, but it seems to suffer from | all the issues that made me switch to MacBooks in the first | place. | nrp wrote: | We would love to be able to provide more personalized service | for different Linux distros, but we unfortunately just don't | have the necessary expertise to be able to do that well. | | For Linux-related service requests, we first ask that folks | try an Ubuntu 22.04 or Fedora 36 Live USB (the distros we | have done the most internal testing with and created setup | guides for) to be able to determine whether there could be a | hardware issue. Once we have verified there isn't a hardware | issue, we ask that folks post in the community thread for | their distro for help: | https://community.frame.work/c/framework-laptop/linux/91 | | In practice, this works well because we have an extremely | helpful and engaged community (including in many cases | maintainers for that distro). Additionally, because that | debugging happens in the open, any answers from it are | publicly visible for future users to see. | | All of that said, we'd love to find better ways to provide | deeper support ourselves and are open to input. A more | official path would likely still start with the most popular | distros. | carlhjerpe wrote: | You know, not to promote NixOS too much but the | reproducibility of it makes this specific OS especially | easy to support. There's already a community driven | hardware support module to use [1]. If you look at it it | doesn't hold a lot of things though, since NixOS is quite | bleeding edge (Wi-Fi already supported) and you Framework | is otherwise quite Linux friendly (Please make a 1080p-ish | display tho, until Wayland is 4 real). | | LPT: NixOS installs by themselves aren't good for much, use | NixOS-hardware and look into power configurations if you | have specific requirements. | | 1: https://github.com/NixOS/nixos- | hardware/blob/master/framewor... | trelane wrote: | I wondered. It looked very Windowsy, and I'd guessed the | Linux support was non-existent. Sounds like I'm going to stay | away then. | lukeschlather wrote: | doyougnu was previously running NixOS on a Macbook so their | bar for "working" is probably much lower than a normal | person's. | | I'm on Windows, but if a Linux could give me reliable power | management I would switch in a heartbeat. I don't know what | it would take to have sensible power management on Linux | without major issues. | 2muchcoffeeman wrote: | Try Pop OS. | trelane wrote: | On System76... | echion wrote: | > if a Linux could give me reliable power management I | would switch in a heartbeat | | More than `powertop --auto-tune`? | loudmax wrote: | I get six to eight hours on my Thinkpad, running Arch | Linux. | | This did _not_ happen out of the box. I think I got like | two hours of battery life before I began tuning parameters. | As usual, the Arch wiki is an excellent resource even if | you 're running a different distro: | https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Power_management | R0b0t1 wrote: | That's impressive. I've done the equivalent of tuning | everything and still wound up with battery lifetime half | of what it should be on Windows. | | There's also specific programs that are really bad. Edge | used to add 2-4 hours extra battery life when using my | Surface to read PDFs. If I used Firefox, it was shorter | by a very noticeable amount. | trelane wrote: | Does straight chrome have similar battery performance? | varispeed wrote: | When there a new laptop release with an Intel CPU, the topic of | fans is rarely talked. How is the Framework doing when it comes | to heat? I decided that I will no longer buy a laptop that whirls | fans whenever you do something more resource intensive or even | simply open an app. I have fairly modern XPS 15 and the fan noise | is just unbearable. It puts me off coming near the laptop. So it | looks like I'll have to bite the bullet and buy M1/M2 if there is | going to be a way to run Linux reliably. | headsoup wrote: | Nice. I noticed the 'Pre-order now' button for the 12th gen DIY | edition goes to the configuration page for the normal edition. | | I was confused that all options had Windows installed... | | You can still get to the DIY configure page through Product Story | -> Pre-Order Now. | nrp wrote: | We are fixing this now! | | Edit: This is fixed now. | someguy5344523 wrote: | Umm, right now, the pre-built page takes you to the diy page | instead, even if you click on "Or check out pre-built | options" | zanethomas wrote: | my next laptop! | 4ggr0 wrote: | I'm now waiting for over a year for this laptop to be available | in my country. | | Would still really like to order one, but my patience is running | out, don't have a laptop currently. | | EDIT: I sound very pissed off. I know that it's hard to ship to | lots of countries, it's just frustrating for me to not even have | an estimation. Will I be able to buy it in 3 or 6 months? Or does | it take another year? no idea. | leodriesch wrote: | If you're fine with import tax and an American keyboard, there | are services [0] that provide you with an American address and | send any packets that arrive there to you via international | shipping. | | [0]: https://www.myus.com/ | agomez314 wrote: | Exciting stuff! Great job, y'all. Any chance RISC-V architectures | will be on a Framework Laptop one day? | seanw444 wrote: | Hopefully after AMD finally comes out. That would be awesome. A | truly open system. | yuters wrote: | I'm still waiting for more keyboards option on a DIY kit in North | America. Seems like a waste for a modular laptop that you can't | order one with no keyboard. You have to buy a separate keyboard | in the marketplace and throw away the english one. | skywal_l wrote: | I would like to see a 75 keyboard like the HP Envy 13 x360 with | a bar of keys with Home/PageUp/PageDown/End. | meibo wrote: | GPUs please! Make it happen! | intsunny wrote: | I'd really wish for an AMD motherboard. | | The new AMD chips with the RDNA2 is a Linux user's dream. The | open source support is incredible. | cyber_kinetist wrote: | I thought that the latest Alder Lake CPUs pretty much catched | up with AMD in terms of general performance nowadays. And | Intel's iGPU support was rock solid even before AMD. | fyrn- wrote: | Th IGPU is substantially better in the new RDNA2 chips, also | power draw. | cosmiccatnap wrote: | Not really no. The power draw and heat on these chips are | nearly 3x the AMD variant. | alkaloid wrote: | I believe so much in this project -- I was an early adopter but | couldn't figure out a use case for the laptop, so have been | lurking, waiting on sweeter and sweeter upgrades . . . this may | fit the bill! | rjsw wrote: | The ethernet expansion card looks good. | nrp wrote: | This was by far our most popular Expansion Card request. We've | actually been working on it since before launching the original | Framework Laptop. It's just a non-trivial packaging challenge, | especially to land 2.5Gbit support. | Terretta wrote: | > _non-trivial... especially 2.5Gbit_ | | Elsewhere in this thread: | | nrp: _"Unfortunately, Realtek is the one and only choice for | a USB 3.1 to 2.5Gbit Ethernet controller. We don 't like it | any more than you do, but there are several niches in the PC | peripheral space where there is no alternative to using a | Realtek part."_ | xchaotic wrote: | I had a look and it looks like everything is upgraded- the | chassis, the motherboard etc. So if you wanted to take advantage | of all of the improvements you'd need to buy them all. At which | point it might be less materially wasteful to but another, less | recyclable laptop that uses fewer parts ? | hojjat12000 wrote: | You don't "NEED" to upgrade your chassis. Even if you do, it's | just one piece out of the 3 pieces for your chassis. You'd be | upgrading your motherboard and CPU. You can reuse your wifi, | storage, ram, your expansion cards, your display, your | speakers, your keyboard, your touchpad, your battery, | powersupply, cables... | | That being said, you don't need to upgrade from 11th gen to | 12th gen. Maybe in a few years when 11th gen isn't cutting it | for you anymore you can upgrade to 15th gen. | | It's great that they provide a path for upgrading, but the more | important thing here is having more recent hardware for someone | who wants to buy a framework in 2022. | petilon wrote: | Still no retina display option. Steve Jobs made the right call | over a decade ago... the only scaling that looks good after 100% | is 200%. Any in-between scaling will have display artifacts. | | This laptop has 150% scaling. What sort of display artifacts can | you expect because of this? Go to a web page with a grid, with | 1-pixel horizontal grid lines. Even though all lines are set to | 1-pixel, some lines will appear thicker than others. | | I blame Microsoft for this mess. Windows supports in-between | resolutions (with display artifacts), and hardware manufacturers | therefore manufacture in-between resolutions. Framework laptop is | limited to what the display manufacturers put out. | cowtools wrote: | besides the fact that "retina display" is a marketing term | invented by Apple, I don't really see what the big deal is. I | have pretty good vision and I don't notice individual pixels on | my 1080p screen. More pixels means more load on the GPU. | arinlen wrote: | > _I have pretty good vision and I don 't notice individual | pixels on my 1080p screen._ | | 1080p doesn't mean much if you leave out the screen's pixel | density. There's a world of difference between a smartphone | with a 5' 1080p screen and a 24' monitor with a 1080p screen. | cowtools wrote: | That's a good point. But distance also plays a factor. | Perhaps we should be measuring in pixels per degree at the | viewing distance. | dntrkv wrote: | That's actually what the term "retina" means (in Apple | marketing lingo). It's the required pixel density, at | different viewing distances, where you no longer see the | pixels. Retina PPI for Macbooks is different compared to | iPhones. | LtdJorge wrote: | And distance to it | PragmaticPulp wrote: | For some people, High-DPI displays are the type of upgrade | that you don't notice until you've been using it for a while | and have to switch back to the old technology. | | I was also fine with lower resolutions for years because that | was the only option. After using high-DPI displays for a | couple years, I can't stand working on old low-DPI monitors | for long periods of time. It's similar to how we were all | happy with our mechanical HDD computers for years, but after | using an SSD-based machine for a few months you can never go | back to slow HDD-based machines. | | It's not about seeing individual pixels. It's about the text | clarity and reduced fatigue after reading text all day. | layla5alive wrote: | I have a 4k 14" ThinkPad X1 Carbon and I happily use it at | 100% scaling. | cowtools wrote: | I use a bitmap font such as Unifont If I want the text to | look sharper on a 1080p screen. it is useful for | programming, not so much documents. | | As for hard drives vs SSDs, I can hardly notice the | difference in read/write speeds day-to-day. I merely use an | SSD because it is more durable in the situation that I drop | my laptop. | jameshart wrote: | When I use a machine with a spinning rust drive, my brain | keeps interrupting me: "Why is this computer _clicking_? " | zionic wrote: | >I have pretty good vision and I don't notice individual | pixels on my 1080p screen. | | For a 24" 1080p monitor in typical desktop configuration I | get screen-door-effect. I can clearly see the black grid | lines between pixels. | | Also, if you can see aliasing/stair-stepping on this test | then your eyes could benefit from higher resolution: | | https://www.testufo.com/aliasing- | visibility#foreground=fffff... | brandonmenc wrote: | I've been on an LG Ultrafine 5k for a year and I consider | anything less to be borderline unusable. | | > I have pretty good vision | | My vision is terrible. Maybe the relationship works the other | way around? | petilon wrote: | It is different from person to person. I notice pixels on | 13-inch 1080p screens. I can't imagine using a display that | is not 200% scaling. Even 300% scaling has display artifacts. | hit8run wrote: | 1080p !?! Wow I didn't know that there are professionals out | there using such a shitty resolution. You are definitely not | the target audience for high quality hardware then I guess. | dhruvmittal wrote: | While I prefer my personal machines to have 1440p or 4k | resolutions, I'm perfectly happy with my work PC's 1080p | screen for development and email. I'm hardly watching | videos or gaming on that machine, and I don't find that | fonts are noticeably sharper at the size that I prefer them | on a 15" laptop display. | hit8run wrote: | You find the screen real estate sufficient? I hate | developing on a small screen (especially for the web). | beepbooptheory wrote: | I hear some people call themselves professionals and don't | even use gold-plated HDMI cables. | hit8run wrote: | Why use HDMI when there is USB-C or Thunderbolt? As far | as I know 4k@60hz is max on HDMI. You are optimising the | wrong thing here. | toper-centage wrote: | That's pointless gatekeeping. Having the most expensive | pencil doesn't make you draw better. For most professionals | in most fields, more than 1080p is a waste of energy. | hit8run wrote: | Good tooling improves the artists workflow and results in | most cases. | jason0597 wrote: | Wait until you see what hardware the OpenBSD developers | use... are you going to claim that they _aren 't_ | professionals? | | https://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article&sid=20120425065148 | | https://www.undeadly.org/features/2012/r2k12/P1020598.JPG | hit8run wrote: | These images are from 2012... That was 10 years ago. lol | [deleted] | cowtools wrote: | I am not a professional, I am just a student. | | Edit: If I was an artist or something I might care about | resolution or color accuracy. | hit8run wrote: | Finish your studies and then you will get the chance to | use better hardware :) | | Color accuracy is super important to me whenever I need | to design something on the frontend side of things. High | resolution is important too because I'm working with my | screens. That means that I stare many hours per day in | the display. Life is too short for shitty hardware and | most professionals in our industry or their companies can | definitely afford it. | erikpukinskis wrote: | Same. I have an old school 2013 MBA and a fresh MBP for work | and I don't really notice the difference. | | Of course I can _see_ the difference. The MBP looks really | nice. But when I sit down to code or watch a movie on the | MBA, I have pretty much the same experience as I do on my | work machine. | newaccount74 wrote: | I use a setup with multiple screens, some of them Retina, | some of them not (the lack of high resolution external | displays is a pity...). | | The difference in resolution is immediately obvious, but | once I start working I forget that the displays have a | different resolution. | | Things like aspect ratio are much more important, and I | think that 3:2 is the best aspect ratio for work. 16:9 and | even 16:10 has always felt a bit cramped in the vertical, | 3:2 feels perfect. | ProAm wrote: | It also doesn't have a touchbar and has an excessive amount of | ports! | whycombagator wrote: | Just like the new MBPs! | Rebelgecko wrote: | Framework laptop actual has fewer ports than MBPs (although | they're configurable which is neat, with the caveat that some | like expansion ports HDMI are a big drain on battery life, | even when inactive) | Kototama wrote: | Maybe you can accept that no project is perfect, specially | young projects and that the exceptional effort they put to have | the laptop modular are a big benefits for the environment and | having less resource consumption, which is maybe, maybe, more | important than a retina display? | giantrobot wrote: | The environmental benefit of a laptop with modular components | is debatable at best and negligible at worst. At the scale of | the Framework laptop's production it's meaningless. | | As for the display, for a laptop supposedly intended to last | years, every human interface component should be the best | available option. The ergonomics are important for a long | lived device. It shouldn't _become_ problematic just because | the owner aged. Otherwise the laptop ends up the same as any | other where the owner tosses it after it becomes | uncomfortable to use. All the benefits of modularity are lost | if it ends up in a landfill. | daemontus wrote: | A gentle reminder that every retina MacBook has been shipping | with fractional scaling as _default_ for years now (and it 's | not even 1.5). Sure, you can put it back into 2x if you want | to. But you can do the same on a Framework, and then you get... | wait for it... almost the same vertical resolution as a 2x 13" | MB Pro (93% to be exact). If you absolutely need more space and | a 2x scaling, there is a large amount of 4K 13"/14" laptops | that are more than happy to fill that niche. Free market is | your friend :) | | So the argument that Windows is somehow responsible for the | death of perfect 2x scaling is a bit exaggerated. People just | want more space and anti-aliasing is mostly good enough so that | no one cares. | hinkley wrote: | I run one monitor at 1.5:1, but it also offers me 1.2766:1, | (2160->1692) which is a truly bizarre configuration. It's | right at the edge of what I can read comfortably. I don't | think it looks particularly fuzzy, I mostly don't use it | because I don't like the idea of using such a funky | resolution. It _feels_ like it will be problematic, in ways | 1.5 won 't. | petilon wrote: | > _every retina MacBook has been shipping with fractional | scaling as default for years now_ | | I have a MacBook and I don't see the kind of display | artifacts that I mentioned (grid lines set to same pixel | width appearing to have different widths) on a MacBook. Why | is that? I have also tried the same test on nearly every | Windows laptop at BestBuy, and every Windows laptop that does | not have scaling set to either 100% or 200% has this | artifact. Even 300% scaling has this artifact. What is | Apple's magic that Microsoft has not been able to replicate? | j3s wrote: | could I suggest trying to figure this out yourself? it | sounds like you have the interest and incentive - i'm sure | other people would love to know. a blog post about why | fractional scaling artifacts exist on Windows but not MacOS | would probably be popular (i'd definitely be interested in | reading it at least). | mumblemumble wrote: | Very wild guess: Display PostScript. Or, I suppose, more | accurately, its descendant Quartz 2D. | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: | That's weird to nitpick. That's a software issue not a display | issue. | hinkley wrote: | Using an external monitor with OS X, you're often stuck with | those in-between sizes if you don't either have hawkeyes or | enjoy seeing super-crisp 1080p resolution taking up half of | your desk, which is a waste of space. | | I'm mostly not going to be looking at a 1 pixel wide line at 4k | on a 27" monitor. At 32" it might be debatable. Above that | you're stacking them oddly (top+bottom, one vertical, or both), | or you're down to one monitor and the real estate issue becomes | a more pressing issue. | | I'm at 'stacking weirdly' and my old main monitor (a "4k" | monitor that is actually 3840x2160) is vertical, and angled on | the corner of my desk. OS X defaults it to 1080p, which is too | big a font for how close I sit to it. Full resolution is way | too tiny. So I use 1440 (1.5). | | The smallest graphics I use are in grafana, and those happen to | be on my vertical monitor. I don't see any weird moire patterns | when I scroll them, so if there's an issue with line width, | it's well covered by things like not using #00 or #ff for all | RGB color channels, which tend to show artifacts more overtly. | | But then again, it's not just the hardware it's also the | software, and Linux has struggled to keep up with Windows and | OS X on some issues related to graphics. The saga of good fonts | in X took an unseemly amount of time to sort out. | newaccount74 wrote: | Yeah, Steve Jobs mistake was assuming that 3rd party | manufacturers would offer high res displays. 10 years later, | and the only high res display on the market that's suitable | as a 2x display is Apple's own 5k studio display, which comes | with a super high price and a crappy webcam... | | If you want something that uses less space on the desk, there | used to be some 24" 4k displays which were acceptable, even | though the DPI is slightly too low on them for 2x. | | So while the 2x scaling worked out great for laptops and | iMacs, there's unfortunately only very limited options for | external displays... | pkulak wrote: | It's possible for an OS to support fractional scaling properly; | just tell applications to render their windows 1.5 times | larger, map the inputs properly, and turn off font anti- | aliasing. The problem is that it requires every app to be | updated, which hasn't happened everywhere yet. Android and iOS, | for example, do it perfectly. So does ChromeOS. | tadfisher wrote: | Even Android maps "1dp" to a non-integer number of pixels on | most displays. | | It looks "perfect" because of a combination of anti-aliasing | and high density. But zoom in on a repeating pattern of 1dp | lines, and you will see that some are aliased and some are | not if your display's density is not an integer multiple of | 160dpi (mdpi). | | But Android can do this everywhere because everything draws | to a Skia canvas under the hood (well, | HWComposer/SurfaceFlinger, but basically Skia). Desktop | operating systems don't have the same luxury. MacOS and Gnome | render at 2x and downscale the entire frame, which produces | decent results on high-density displays but look blurry | otherwise. I have no idea what Windows does but it sounds | like it's a mess. | arinlen wrote: | > _(...) just tell applications to render their windows 1.5 | times larger, map the inputs properly, and turn off font | anti-aliasing._ | | Doesn't disabling anti-aliasing make things look worse? | Unintentional and random jagged lines never look right. | OctopusLupid wrote: | Is it possible GP was talking about sub-pixel font anti- | aliasing, which would look wrong when scaled? | adgjlsfhk1 wrote: | anti-aliasing matters a lot less when you have a high | resolution display. | arinlen wrote: | > _anti-aliasing matters a lot less when you have a high | resolution display._ | | The original claim is that turning off anti-aliasing | would make things look better, and not that it looks bad | but not that bad. | | Even in high res displays, isn't it true that anti- | aliasing makes things look better? | adgjlsfhk1 wrote: | Anti-aliasing at the wrong resolution looks worse than | not anti-aliasing at all. As such, if you tell your | applications to render things larger than 1x scaling, | anti-aliasing starts to hurt more than it helps. | throwaway92394 wrote: | Yes and no. Speaking generally about anti-aliasing, and | the method it's done varies a lot in it's trade offs. | | Generally anti-aliasing is a trade off between | pixelation, blurriness, and performance. The better the | anti-aliasing and the higher the pixel count the slower | the performance - this can be an issue and some GUI | applications like some IDE's at high DPI's. Faster | antialiasing methods will look worse. | | In an ideal world a high enough pixel density would mean | the apparent pixelation is so low that anti-aliasing | isn't necessary. Generally anti-aliasing means more | blurry - although the amount of blur might not be an | issue for you, it depends. The higher the DPI the less | pixels that need to be "guessed" which gives you better | precision, which is especially useful for vector graphics | like text that have theoretically infinite precision. | | It really depends on how you define "better". Generally | for text specifically I think most people prefer | sharpness. This, combined with the much higher DPI | display's we have nowadays I think we're at the point | where for many people including myself, text looks better | without antialiasing. Personally I think it's easier to | read. | | tl;dr - it depends on how you define "better". At very | high DPI's I think we're at a point where many people | prefer the sharpness provided by the lack of AA compared | to the artifacts that are now relatively tiny thanks to | the high DPI. Also in some applications like Intellij I | also have had performance issues with AA at high DPI's. | favadi wrote: | Sadly, Linux doesn't support fractional scaling properly. | This is a show stopper for me. | imilk wrote: | Fractional scaling works pretty seamlessly for me using Pop | OS on a Framework. | [deleted] | colordrops wrote: | No it's not 150% scaling. You can run native resolution just | fine. With Linux it's actually better than higher resolutions, | as the dot pitch is similar to a 27" 4k external monitor, so | you can scale natively on both and have windows look | approximately the same size. My other laptop is 4k, and it's a | nightmare getting scaling to work because it has such a higher | DPI than my external monitor. If Linux had better scaling | support for HiDPI I'd prefer a 4k laptop but it doesn't, so | native resolution is the way to go. | nagisa wrote: | Could you elaborate on why realtek was chosen for the ethernet | expansion card? It does tend to have a pretty bad rep, with one | of the recent documentations being | https://overengineer.dev/blog/2021/04/25/usb-c-hub-madness.h... | whazor wrote: | Seems to be that the realtek driver issues are mostly for Mac | users, which will not be really an issue for Framework users. | nfriedly wrote: | FWIW, I just had a realtek USB ethernet adapter take down my | network twice last week when I was trying out with an Android | tablet. | | It's part of a powered USB hub, and it works fine while the | tablet is connected, but after disconnecting the tablet, the | ethernet controller stays active, and about half an hour | later my entire home network stops working. I had to | disconnect the realtek adapter and reboot my network switch | each time. | | So, their problems are not entirely limited to mac. | howinteresting wrote: | That's not limited to Realtek: | | https://twitter.com/chx/status/1457848563199721472 | nfriedly wrote: | Ok, maybe that one is partially the switch's fault. | | Also, here's a better link for that: https://www.reddit.c | om/r/UsbCHardware/comments/qo6r3f/powere... | philliphaydon wrote: | I have had many issues with Realtek over the years causing | windows to wake. Just changing the network card in my laptop | to Intel causes that issue to go away. I won't buy a | motherboard for my desktop if it's Realtek. | 867-5309 wrote: | sounds like home is phoning you with a WoWAN from Taiwan | yabones wrote: | As a long-time Linux user, every time I hear Realtek or see a | rtlxxxx driver the blood drains from my head. Just a constant | nightmare of crashy firmware and dkms hell. Maybe things have | gotten better in the last couple years, but I've steered | clear every time I've had the chance. | djbusby wrote: | My ASUS lappy with rtl8xxx WiFi started having issues on | newer kernel 5.10.x spewing bugchecks in the dmesg and is | locked till reboot. Apparently it's a frequent issue, cause | my searches showed it's been happening to others since at | least 2018. It's 2022 and not much better. | | However! Frame.work is Ina position to be an agent of | change! | blacklion wrote: | Realtek RTL8822 WiFi kills cheap soapbox routers, typical | for AirBnB and cheap/small hotels. Known problems, no | fixes. | | I mean, it blocks such routers, not brick them | permanently, but result is the same: you and your | companion doesn't have internet. At all. | nrp wrote: | Unfortunately, Realtek is the one and only choice for a USB 3.1 | to 2.5Gbit Ethernet controller. We don't like it any more than | you do, but there are several niches in the PC peripheral space | where there is no alternative to using a Realtek part. | mrpippy wrote: | How about Aquantia? | nrp wrote: | As far as we can tell, Marvell end of lifed the USB to | Ethernet solutions. If anyone from Marvell can tell us | otherwise, we'd like to know! | nfriedly wrote: | What about a Thunderbolt connection and a PCIe ethernet | adapter - could that work? | kieranl wrote: | The power consumption of this would be too high. | Sebb767 wrote: | And the cost, probably. 40$ for 2.5Gbit is not that bad | of an offering; at 80$, this would probably be even more | niche. | jandrese wrote: | Yay! They finally offer an Ethernet card so I don't have to use | flaky piece of crap Realtek based USB Ethernet adapters. | | (Reads the specs) | | Shit! | klaas- wrote: | Any news about lvfs support from framework? | moderation wrote: | Haven't been able to find anything beyond his Jan 6 2022 tweet | [0]. No response in the forums for this question [1] from 4 | days ago. Frustrating to not be able to upgrade BIOS for Linux | users without resorting to Windows or replacing boot loaders | | 0. | https://twitter.com/FrameworkPuter/status/147913722834957517... | | 1. https://community.frame.work/t/lvfs-3-07-bios- | availability/1... | kieranl wrote: | We have LVFS updates in lvfs testing but there is a bios | capsule update bug that wipes the boot entries on update. | Feedback from 3.07 was that some distros fail to boot after | the update because they do not put a efi loader in the | fallback path of the ESP partition. So we are hesitant to | enable LVFS on 11th gen due to this issue. The code that | handles this runs from the previous bios, so we cannot fix | this in the capsule. We do offer a EFI update which you can | use without booting into windows. | https://knowledgebase.frame.work/en_us/framework-laptop- | bios... | codezero wrote: | I got my framework laptop a little over a week ago and I'm pretty | happy with it, but seeing such a huge performance boost is | frustrating a little, that said, I bought it to support/encourage | the company, so I guess it's working :P | noveltyaccount wrote: | Framework team, I know you hang out here... I'd love a | touchscreen+stylus digitizer model with 360deg hinge. My Lenovo | yoga need a replacement! | freemint wrote: | Digitizers are really expensive. I am not sure if Framework is | big enough to handle this. Just buy a snall wacom tablet and | put it next to the laptop that also works. | noveltyaccount wrote: | That is definitely not the same thing as being able to reach | up & touch the display, or flip the display 360 degrees into | "tablet mode" :) Maybe I'm a minority in liking a laptop to | be able to do those kinds of things. ___________________________________________________________________ (page generated 2022-05-19 23:00 UTC)