[HN Gopher] Narcissism is rampant, so how do we address it?
___________________________________________________________________
Narcissism is rampant, so how do we address it?
Author : binnacle
Score : 70 points
Date : 2022-05-19 21:18 UTC (1 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (integritytalk.substack.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (integritytalk.substack.com)
| jrm4 wrote:
| This article feels slightly closer to parody than genuine; does
| the author not see that they are the common denominator?
| rogerclark wrote:
| Guy Posting On Substack Blog Complains About Narcissists
| waiseristy wrote:
| > Following that dramedy, I packed my belongings and embarked
| on a nomadic lifestyle in which I lived in multiple co-living
| spaces and met a wide and authentic group of people
|
| Nomadic Goober Shocked That He Is The Perfect Prey For
| Narcissist Personality Types. More at 11
| jancsika wrote:
| > In my experience, there are a few pink flags that attract my
| attention: I try to be careful with people who continually credit
| themselves - this can be done indirectly by using false humility;
| they don't demonstrate a genuine interest in their peers; their
| words are inconsistent with their actions - sometimes for many
| small details; they rarely express guilt and, in most cases, make
| insincere apologies; they can be very sensitive in the face of
| unwitting criticism.
|
| Be careful-- you quoted a number like 15% of the population, in
| which case-- the narcissists are among us! And aside from
| inconsistent words/deeds, someone who is being calm but firm _in
| the face of narcissists_ may wave these same pink flags:
|
| 1. They may take credit explicitly and precisely for the _actual_
| work they do. This avoids the pitfall of one of the narcissists
| seizing on ambiguities and lack of communication to _claim_
| credit for this same work (which they didn 't actually do).
|
| 2. Narcissists seem like they constantly leave room for little
| dramas and use manipulative tactics to try to gain "points" with
| those around them. In the face of that, even the author's
| professed stoicism would be interpreted as a problem by such a
| narcissist-- after all, if you don't follow them down their
| rabbit hole of manipulation then how could you possibly register
| as "genuinely interested" in their view?
|
| 3. Maybe I'm weird in that I am fascinated by narcissists and try
| to interact with them when possible. I mean, a guy walks up to me
| talking on his cell and puts his finger up, as if to say, "Hold
| on, I have something to say to you after I'm done with this very
| important conversation." It's like smelling the elephant shit
| outside a circus tent-- it's bad, but it a sign of an impending
| spectacle. I'm getting a tiny shot of adrenaline just thinking
| about it...
|
| Now, do you think I'm going to express any degree of
| vulnerability whatsoever to this asshole? Doing that can _only_
| cause problems-- like asking the ring toss guy at the carnival if
| he will take a check...
|
| 4. Outside of cranks on HN, _everybody_ is sensitive in the face
| of unwitting criticism. We 've all got different tolerances for
| it, but we all can only take a finite amount in a given day. If
| there's a flag here, perhaps it has to do with the way we deal
| with that sensitivity. In my experience, normies commiserate and
| tend to feel better for it. _Oh, you hit that obstacle and you
| 're a professional obstacle avoider? Thanks, I don't feel as bad
| now._ Perhaps that doesn't work for narcissists because they are
| Greek Gods with the highest standards? Dunno, just speculating.
|
| Epilogue: the finger-guy walked off without finishing his very
| important phone call. I haven't heard from him since. :(
| recursivedoubts wrote:
| we live in a culture of narccissism, as christopher lasch pointed
| out[1].
|
| social media and online dating has ramped this exponentially,
| amplifying appearances and social positioning beyond anything
| humans have ever experienced, and the sociopaths are thriving, in
| their own way
|
| my solution to this is the same as my solution all other social
| ills: raise good children
|
| yes, that is hard
|
| [1] -
| https://thezeitgeistmovement.se/files/Lasch_Christopher_The_...
| ristlane wrote:
| It's entirely possible to have rewarding & meaningful
| interactions with narcissistic people. Here's my process.
|
| First, realize you're not so much better. Don't expect too much.
|
| Next, don't insult them. Be aware of power games; don't get
| confused. Be straightforward.
|
| Generally avoid putting yourself in a situation where you need
| something from them. If they offer a favor, accept it (if you
| want) and say "thank you".
|
| Finally, don't try to fix them. Be simple. Offer them your time,
| and not much else.
|
| You'd be surprised at how many narcissists are relieved and happy
| to meet someone who behaves in this way.
| 4oo4 wrote:
| I agree with all this, except for offering them your time. If
| you're not careful a narcissist will waste all your time and
| attention for self-validation (or perhaps other malicious
| purposes, depending on the type of narcissist). At that point
| you're just feeding the beast and reinforcing their expectation
| that they can demand limitless time and attention from people
| for their own vain needs. They will teach you to distrust
| yourself to suit their own inner narrative if they think you
| are challenging it.
|
| Time and attention granted to narcissists needs to be watched
| very closely. You're totally right that they need to be
| approached with empathy, and you don't need to completely
| ignore them or treat them as pariahs. However it's OK to
| disengage with them when you're being exploited for their self-
| validation.
|
| Unfortunately, I've really recently come to the realization
| that a longtime friend of mine has narcissistic traits, I
| didn't really realize it until another mutual friend started to
| get frustrated in the same way that I had been from time to
| time. Then I realized that my intuition was right, and how much
| the friendship had turned toxic because of how much it caused
| me to doubt myself, in service of their ego.
|
| Since I had been giving them so much time and attention while
| trying to be a good friend, I realized that they were making me
| doubt myself so they never had to reflect on themselves or have
| their way of thinking challenged. They're not a bad person and
| I think it comes down to insecurities, but the past couple
| weeks that I'm actively tuning them out when things cease to be
| a conversation, and rather them just talking at me with no way
| to get a word in edgewise (sometimes for up to an hour at a
| time!), telling me the exact same story they just told me
| yesterday, or even a few hours ago, just to hear themself talk.
|
| Since I started creating boundaries like that I have a lot more
| energy and focus for myself since I realized that it had
| convinced me to care about propping up their self-image rather
| than taking care of my own needs.
| IG_Semmelweiss wrote:
| You are right on the money.
|
| Good for you.
| Melatonic wrote:
| I would not say this is the end all be all of interacting with
| narcissists but I agree that it is entirely possible to have
| meaningful interactions with them.
|
| I would probably go farther and say that generally we should
| probably apply some of this type of logic to all the
| relationships in our lives - expectations should always be
| realistically tailored to the individual within reason.
| twelve40 wrote:
| I appreciate the tips (really) but the gist of it sounds
| awfully close to "just treat them like a baby and pamper them".
| Could work if you _really_ need this person, but doesn't
| sound... healthy?
| ed_elliott_asc wrote:
| and pay them lots of attention to keep them happy.
| __s wrote:
| No. The point is to have clear boundaries. In fact, "treat
| them like a baby and pamper them" is quite the opposite of
| the advice
|
| Don't offer to help them. If they ask for help, only agree if
| not expecting anything in return. Or be clear about what
| you'll want in return. Everyone is different: they may react
| negatively to rejection, which is it's own problem, others
| may not hold a grudge
|
| Be straightforward: call them out on their behavior,
| preferably privately to avoid power games. Let them know the
| boundaries which if crossed you'll disengage from them over
| pseudosavant wrote:
| It isn't healthy. It takes some serious honesty with yourself
| to decide who you really _need_.
| IG_Semmelweiss wrote:
| I think that is more part of your personal growth.
|
| People wont change. Some never grow up. Some never get past
| baby stage.
|
| Its up to you to accept how they are, or step aside and forge
| your own path
| fellowniusmonk wrote:
| Right, don't enter partner agreements with them, don't develop
| any kind of attachment to them, don't let them close, don't let
| them get too familiar with you (familiarity breeds their
| contempt) etc.
|
| One foot out the door and don't let them close to anything that
| you would be upset with them breaking (they never apologize or
| take responsibility so just factor in how much bad they can do
| to you) and you'll be fine, they can even be an asset to the
| community and volunteer in exchange for kudos in the right
| circumstances.
| fristechill wrote:
| >they can even be an asset to the community and volunteer in
| exchange for kudos in the right circumstances
|
| Yes, and a relatively harmless source of narcissistic supply
| would seem to be in the performing arts.
| nradov wrote:
| Harvey Weinstein?
| ed_elliott_asc wrote:
| Don't share anything at all with them, they will use it against
| you no matter how trivial.
| ncpa-cpl wrote:
| Also try to be as neutral and boring as possible with them.
| ristlane wrote:
| I like to be challenging and hopeful.
| heavyset_go wrote:
| Or you can save yourself the headache and just not get involved
| at all with them.
| zeptonix wrote:
| It's actually a fascinating experience being in the presence
| of a narcissist for a while. It truly is a different
| kernel/OS that their mind is running. But exactly -- everyone
| in such a situation does and will reach this conclusion
| eventually.
| heavyset_go wrote:
| I don't find it fascinating, they're actually quite
| simplistic, you'll find that they see the world through the
| eyes of a selfish toddler, where they are perfect,
| everything is about them and anything they don't like is
| everyone else's fault. They'll act like the fact that their
| actions may have consequences that they don't like is
| somehow the gravest injustice in the world. It's both
| incredibly boring and exhausting at the same time.
| ncpa-cpl wrote:
| This is what I would do too. Keep them as far away as
| possible.
| heavyset_go wrote:
| Learned this lesson the hard way. The only way to win at
| this game is to not play at all.
| zeptonix wrote:
| Yeah, the problem w/ this theory is that they're still
| narcissists. You can do all the above and perhaps you'll
| succeed in convincing yourself you're having a "rewarding &
| meaningful interaction" ... but the "reward" and "meaning" for
| the narcissist is in what interacting with you does (and can be
| made to do) for them, especially and even ideally at the
| expense of you. It actually sounds a bit like the point of this
| post is to establish that you yourself are special for being
| able to get along with a narcissist -- which is exactly what
| they'd like you to be thinking and just sets you up even more
| so to be taken advantage of by them. For whatever it's worth.
| mise_en_place wrote:
| Dealing with narcissist is relatively straightforward - it's
| the dark triad types you need to watch out for. They will try
| to ruin your life just for the fun/sport of it.
| jalino23 wrote:
| I recommend looking into into spiral dynamics for the framework
| of human behavior's
| eismcc wrote:
| Only you can stop narcissism.
| brentirwin wrote:
| Only _I_ can stop narcissism.
| TameAntelope wrote:
| > Following that dramedy, I packed my belongings and embarked on
| a nomadic lifestyle in which I lived in multiple co-living spaces
| and met a wide and authentic group of people.
|
| Oookay, feels a bit "pot calling the kettle black" here, not
| really sure what the point of this article really was, other than
| to exclaim, "Narcissism exists!"
| UnpossibleJim wrote:
| "Dr. Ramani give numbers around 15% of the population, while my
| therapist believes it's considerably higher, but I assume she's
| biased since she lives in Paris."
|
| This might be my favorite quote I've ever read. It reads of pulp
| fiction and I love it. I know I'll get downvoted, but I can't
| believe that Paris can be worse than any other major urban center
| like New York, L.A., Milan or Quebec.
| TameAntelope wrote:
| I'm not a writer, but I cannot right now come up with a less
| self-aware sentence. It's absolutely brilliant, I also love it.
| zik wrote:
| I just took it as straight up racist / xenophobic. I feel sad
| for any Parisians who read this article.
|
| But on the other hand maybe it's just a narcissistic attempt at
| dropping that he's so important that he has a therapist in
| Paris?
| jl6 wrote:
| Narcissism is an excess of identity. The self runneth over. Image
| empuppets the person.
| zeptonix wrote:
| That's a social media motivated definition. It's actually a lot
| more than that.
| swagasaurus-rex wrote:
| In collectivist cultures, a narcissist is one who makes the
| appearance of caring very much about others/society/the
| nation, when in fact they're really doing so because of
| appearances.
| tonguez wrote:
| what's rampant is billionaires "amplifying" vapid narcissism
| because they want a disempowered population with no good role
| models or values other than the worship of money, and the path to
| money is being a cog in the western MCI/global supply chain/the
| great satan. people don't want to build the surveillance state
| for google if it means they are going to be shamed and looked at
| as creeps. but if you give them enough money, they can film the
| crispest videos with their most expensive phones of their most
| expensive houses, making them de-facto cool, because everyone
| else is poor/a loser.
| ButterWashed wrote:
| "Unfortunately, there is no cure for narcissism"
|
| I can't imagine this will ever change. How do you encourage
| someone who seeks the admiration of others at all costs to simply
| stop? Without a shred of evidence, I'm sure the increased use of
| social media is at least partially to blame.
| Melatonic wrote:
| On the other hand labelling these people in some completely
| "other" group probably is not helpful either - what about those
| who are on the border? What about those who might display what
| appears to be very narcissistic qualities but only in very
| specific niches?
| farzatv wrote:
| prepend wrote:
| > I don't want to be with someone who doesn't care to drink tap
| water
|
| I don't know if it's ultimatum worthy, but this is a really
| curious behavior to me. Tap water in almost all of the US is
| healthy and fine. So not drinking tap water is as queer to me as
| not wearing any clothes that weren't professionally cleaned.
|
| I've heard from people that they don't like the taste of tap
| water. But if one lives in an area for a few weeks the taste is
| acquired.
| robonerd wrote:
| In some areas, the tap water is perfectly safe but tastes foul.
| For instance in many parts of Florida the tap water tastes like
| rotten eggs because it has a lot of sulfur in it. Safe, but not
| very tasty (or an acquired taste?)
| rendang wrote:
| Lots of people don't drink water much at all, tap or not.
|
| As for the flavor, I disagree that one just gets accustomed to
| the taste of high chlorine or sulfur levels the way that one
| gets used to the bitterness of coffee or whiskey.
| voidhorse wrote:
| There's something a bit ironic in the attitude of this essay. By
| the conclusion it seems to suggest the only thing one should do
| in a relationship is continually verify that it isn't toxic and
| to find tools to protect oneself over all else...which is when
| you become the very thing the article decries.
|
| America, and slowly global society thanks to the success and
| pervasiveness of American media and technology, has always been
| on a hyper-individualistic trend. Nearly all long-standing
| communal institutions have at best become shadows of their
| formers selves at this point or have pretty much dissolved
| entirely.
|
| It's the natural outcome of a society that idolizes individuals
| through rampant celebrity fixations and continually perpetuates
| the lie of meritocracy by permitting a wildly unbalanced late-
| stage capitalism to persist and prop up entrepreneur-celebrity
| types, which are pretty much the manifest fusion of America's
| worst aspects: praising individuals because of their
| entertainment value and praising individuals because of their
| capital gains. Unfortunately, social media has devolved into a
| means for extending this possibility of celebrity to the masses.
| You too can become successful and wealthy not on any significant
| merit that actually improves society, but just by being a "fun"
| personality that posts "content" on social media. No need to be
| an inventor or do anything significant, everyone gets their
| little kingdom of "followers".
|
| In America, people who perform selfless, society-serving feats
| are generally sentenced to becoming footnotes in the public
| consciousness, maybe being remembered and celebrated for a
| holiday or so, while the rest of our mental space is occupied by
| nonsense pretty much 24/7.
| daenz wrote:
| >A week later, I received a few ambiguous and regretful messages
| from her, which escalated to a phone call in which she sought
| guidance on her next date
|
| The author needs to spend time identifying how people use tactics
| to assert and obtain power. Even if you don't want to use those
| tactics yourself, which is fine, your whole life will be better
| served by knowing how to deflect tactics others use to submit you
| (lowering your perceived value to others).
|
| For some people, all they have is power games. They can't rely on
| abilities or genuine personality traits, so they have to rely on
| manipulating perceptions of themselves and others. Other people
| have the privilege of not _needing_ to do that, so they never
| develop those manipulation instincts through practice. They get
| taken advantage of because they don 't even see the games being
| played.
|
| Imo, the sweet spot is not needing to manipulate others in order
| to have your intended effect on the world, but being able to do
| so to when it's required.
| fdgsdfogijq wrote:
| It took me far too long to understand that people played power
| games and would actively hurt my psychology to put themselves
| ahead. Very odd realization and rather sad. I grew up as an
| objective person who always tried to see both sides. An odd
| awakening to realize not everyone thought like me
| tkgally wrote:
| I've had trouble recognizing and understanding narcissists,
| too. I'm sixty-five, and I can't recall anyone I knew in the
| first fifty years of my life who I realize now was a
| narcissist. In contrast, I recognize retrospectively many old
| friends and acquaintances who, I now know, must have been on
| the autism spectrum.
|
| But in the last fifteen years, I have had to deal with four
| people who were narcissists, two through work and two in
| private life. Each case was very difficult.
|
| Those four were from very different backgrounds--four
| different countries of origin, three different first
| languages, one had grown up poor, another was from a rich
| family. If narcissism is becoming more prevalent, my limited
| sample offers no clue about possible social causes.
| IG_Semmelweiss wrote:
| It begs the question. Why is this knowledge not taught at
| schools?
|
| It is because the wolves are in command and dont want sheep
| to pull the wool off their eyes?
|
| Seems rather important concepts to learn as you go out into
| the world. Not everyone sees the world thru your prism.
| silvestrov wrote:
| Because if the teachers says "some people are bad", then
| the pupils will ask: who of us are bad?
|
| Who of our parents are bad?
|
| Who of the other teachers are bad?
|
| If you say "none", you will likely get caught in a lie.
|
| I think most kids figure out by themselves that many people
| are somewhat bad. It's mainly kids who are
| slightly/somewhat autistic who need help with this.
| bGl2YW5j wrote:
| Both this article and your comment sum-up what I have really
| been struggling with lately at work. I've never experienced
| such a narcissistic person and have had a hard time not only
| dealing with their behaviour, but identifying it for what it is
| in the first place.
|
| Thanks for the insight.
| prometheus76 wrote:
| Some tips from someone who has dealt with a few classic
| narcissists: don't argue with them. They do not reason the
| way you do. One-word answers are best. Pretend you are a very
| dull, boring person with no opinions when you are talking to
| them. Never raise your voice or get angry. They will try to
| use the silent treatment on you: ignore it. But it works very
| well on them too. They will never, in a million years,
| apologize. But if they apologize, they are only trying to
| manipulate you further because their fear of abandonment has
| been triggered by your body language and tone. Always
| remember they lie constantly. They don't know what the truth
| is anymore.
|
| These are strategies and perspectives I've learned from
| having narcissistic family members. I hope it helps. The best
| thing you can do is just not deal with them at all, but
| sometimes it's unavoidable.
| blacksignal wrote:
| What you are describing is also known as the 'grey rock
| method'. I'm sorry you've had to deal with that.
|
| And yes, it's very effective. And even better, allows you
| to detach and recoup your time and peace.
|
| Here's to healthier relationships.
| adrianmonk wrote:
| > _spend time identifying how people use tactics to assert and
| obtain power_
|
| Other than just being aware and observant and learning through
| experience, are there any good resources for this? "Art of War"
| maybe? Something from fields like psychology or sociology?
| ducttapecrown wrote:
| Read history books, like a biography of Julius Caesar.
|
| Read critical theory like the Communist Manifesto and read
| about the work of Foucault.
|
| Read critical history books like Why Nations Fail and A
| People's History of the United States by Howard Zinn.
|
| Some philosophy like Aristotle's Politics, Kant's categorical
| imperative and Rawl's veil of ignorance are also helpful I
| think.
| 0x20cowboy wrote:
| The worst book I've ever read in my life (that made me lose
| almost all my faith in humanity) but describes how
| manipulative people behave is "The 48 laws of power".
|
| I wish I hadn't read it, but at least I know.
| sam_goody wrote:
| 1. A great many narcissistic children will label a classmate /
| neighbor an enemy somewhere between grades 6-8, and do everything
| in their power to destroy him.
|
| Their popularity and talent for molding public opinion will help
| them, as will the understanding that no one else wants to be his
| next victim.
|
| Unfortunately, I have seen this too often (the school psych told
| me it is a common trait for narcissists), and the effects on the
| victim are catastrophic.
|
| 2. As someone who runs a youth group, I know a family which is
| highly narcissist. It is very painful for me to watch them (they
| are children, so it is not personal, nor is it a threat). By the
| first kid, I mentioned something to the father, who turned on me
| personally and caused some days of heartache. By now, I just feel
| bad for them - and everyone who will ever be in contact with
| them. The school psychologist said that he cannot provide help
| without the parents OK, and the parents will never say OK.
|
| I know of no solution.
| malwarebytess wrote:
| I know of one. Many won't like it, though, because it involves
| flexing the muscles of the state. And at the end, I'm not sure
| the potential benefits outweigh the real risks.
| tempnow987 wrote:
| I'm slightly curious about the author's ability to form solid
| peer relationships.
|
| This person dated someone who was "emotionally abusive,
| hypersensitive, and disrespectful". Umm, it _IS_ possible to just
| say, hey, I don 't think this is going to work out. Then just
| move on. Back in the craigslist dating days dates could be
| seriously wild for those old enough to remember that. I never
| felt the urge to post a substack blog about any of it.
|
| Every time I read these things I'm so thankful for my partner who
| is practical and grounded and I've never heard talk like this. We
| have 2 kids and it's a job and I can't even imagine doing it with
| someone who was constantly evaluating the other person for
| deficiencies. We both cut each other a lot of slack and it really
| works out for us.
|
| When you find yourself diagnosing the world with various
| problems, a bit of introspection might be helpful. You may be
| projecting some internal dysfunction, and even if not, it's MUCH
| easier to address things with respect to yourself then to
| "address rampant narcissism".
|
| "toxic behaviors repeatedly observed over an extended period with
| no apparent willingness for the perpetrator to change, lead to
| legitimate questioning." - Just the language here - "perpetrator"
| etc. Most people are just trying to make it through life in one
| piece. The language in this is throwing up my own pink and red
| flags.
| hitovst wrote:
| End the dysgenic forced redistribution of wealth, and people will
| be forced to adapt to reality. If we continue to tolerate forced
| redistribution of wealth, it only goes one way, and it's the
| opposite of "addressing it".
| atq2119 wrote:
| > impressive accomplishments: a dozen academic degrees in various
| fields
|
| Having a dozen academic degrees is not impressive even if true.
| If true, it would be a warning sign that the person isn't able to
| move on to something deeper and more meaningful than degrees.
| robonerd wrote:
| Does anybody else feel the hair on their neck rise when they hear
| accusations of narcissism? A few times in my life I've known
| people who tried to control me by accusing all of my other
| friends of being narcissists, telling me that I should stop being
| around them. I now believe that accusing other people of
| narcissism is one method employed by narcissists, so these sort
| of accusations now make me very nervous about the person making
| them.
|
| Also it reminds me of the 'asshole' theory; that if you meet an
| asshole one day, you've simply met an asshole. But if you meet
| many assholes every day, it's probably you who's the asshole.
| Somebody who perceives many narcissists all over the place is
| somebody I'm wary of.
| drewcoo wrote:
| Dig more lacunae?
|
| The impulse to "help" other people is noble. Except for those
| quotes around "help." This isn't about helping others so much as
| dealing with them. And that's toxic in itself.
|
| Narcissus liked to stare into his lacuna. So harm reduction might
| be digging more lacunae. With enough reflective surfaces,
| Narcissus might have a "normal" life.
|
| I've experienced environments where everyone constantly gets
| praise for the least little aspect of existing.
| mbakke wrote:
| As someone with several narcissistic traits, the book "The Subtle
| Art Of Not Giving A Fuck" by Mark Manson was an eye-opener. It
| succinctly describes detrimental thought patterns that you might
| even not know you have, and gives examples of more productive
| mindsets.
|
| Can recommend for anyone dealing with insecurities.
| givemeethekeys wrote:
| It's simple but not easy. Reward people who take orders more than
| those that give them.
| quadcore wrote:
| Ive thought a lot about that lately and found an explanation
| (about why do narcicism and psychopathy seem to be more trendy)
| which satisfies me.
|
| Farms and factories used to employ a lot of people. It was the
| default job back in the day. So we have two things, 1) it was
| difficult to get out, especially when you do things superficially
| and 2), well then, being a "body person" (think muscles) was more
| trendy than being a "brain person" (think nerd). I dont think the
| nerds are mocked at schools anymore, I think they are the stars
| (though its actually conjecture, Id love to verify that).
|
| So yeah, more people out of guetto lives (one might say not the
| best on average, if you'd forgive me the shortcut here) and the
| need to look smart socially. Boom psycho crisis.
|
| As a sidenote, same thing happened with the web, it used to be a
| nerd-with-glass thing (many wouldn't even want to be _seen_ with
| a computer), you had to have a computer which was expensive and
| useless for your say, average factory worker.
|
| Now what can we do? Teach children basic psychology, yoga and
| buddhism maybe? We got to do something because thats a lot of
| people on the brain market now and thats not gonna end well :)
| 29athrowaway wrote:
| If narcissism (and psychopathy) is prevailing is because it is
| favored by society.
|
| - Marketing and advertising
|
| - Social media and entertainment industry
|
| - Employers
|
| - Dating scene
|
| Everyone nowadays seems to love charismatic selfish people that
| do not have time for empathy.
|
| Noone wants to be the "loser" that contributes to society, but
| rather the jerk that takes everything from others.
|
| We glorify parasitic people like Bezos and the Waltons that can
| exist only because they have the majority of their workforce on
| welfare benefits.
| rendang wrote:
| The Waltons are glorified? I barely hear much about them at
| all.
| Melatonic wrote:
| I think what you are describing is distinctly more American
| than anything else - in many countries it would probably not be
| seen as a huge positive to be super gregarious in a business
| setting for example.
| brewdad wrote:
| I don't mind being the "loser" that contributes to society. I
| hate feeling like the "sucker" that gets left holding the bag
| when the selfish jerks continue to take.
| greatpostman wrote:
| Generally there's huge rewards for being a narcissist. Refusing
| to ever admit your wrong and instead gaslighting people around
| you works really well. People figure out the pattern, just
| shuffle them out of your life and add new people. I noticed that
| a few friends I grew up with developed this approach when they
| found it worked extremely well with women.
| blacksignal wrote:
| Unfortunately this means there's no incentive for them to
| change. Becoming a better person and having healthier
| relationships takes a lot of effort, and to them, they are
| giving up power (and becoming vulnerable) -- so why bother? And
| empathy for others will never be a motivator, here.
| BlargMcLarg wrote:
| It works well as long as there is an abundance of people
| willing to stick around, which is when these people will
| develop this mindset. With a bit of luck they'll grow out of it
| once the environment no longer makes it beneficial, but many
| are too far gone by then.
|
| It's part of why PUA circles (to stick with the dating example
| in the article) hammer "abundance mentality" so much. You don't
| have to deal with a person having a problem with you when, as
| you say, you can shuffle them out for someone else.
| Barrin92 wrote:
| I think our narcissism is largely a product of a culture obsessed
| with individual identity, individual success and ego. One of the
| best pieces I ever read on HN was by a Shopify engineer just a
| month ago about why he serves in the British Yeomanry.
| (https://chrisseaton.com/army/)
|
| _" Being in the Army also grounds me in reality and in my
| community. The tech world can be a relatively narrow cross-
| section of society. When I spend time with the Army I interact
| with the full spectrum of my local community. My squadron has
| nurses, carpenters, architects, police officers, unemployed
| people, veterinarians, warehouse workers, tree surgeons, railway
| engineers, pilots, firefighters. I get to interact with people
| from a variety of backgrounds, a variety of economic situations,
| with a variety of outlooks[...] More than just interacting with a
| cross-section of society, it means building a very high level of
| trust and depending on each other. When we're in the field
| there's absolutely nowhere to hide, with no privacy and no time-
| off, and you'll need to manage to get along. There's a big taboo
| of being 'jack' and not looking after each other or serving
| yourself before others._"
|
| I had a similar experience when I had to do military service. I
| don't think there's a better cure for narcissism than getting out
| of your head and comfort zone, doing something for and with other
| people in the real world. We should remember where the word
| 'narcissism' comes from. From Narcissus staring into his own
| reflection. So sitting in your room, reflecting on how totally
| not narcissistic you are is never going to be a solution.
| heavyset_go wrote:
| I hate pathologizing, I whine a lot about it on HN, but for
| some people, narcissism is pathological and no amount of
| service towards others will give them perspective.
|
| I once knew a self-described narcissist who was proud of the
| fact. At one point, doing volunteer work benefited them,
| possibly for college credit or something, I forget.
|
| Their lesson from serving in a soup kitchen? "The homeless
| people didn't thank me enough, they're all so greedy and should
| be more thankful that I'm giving them food instead of doing
| something better with my time."
| ozarker wrote:
| Is there any kind of parallel for this kind of experience. I've
| always thought the rigidity and discipline of military life
| would suit me well. This is another reason why I would love to
| join up. I have a family and a career now though and joining up
| would be a selfish decision
| heavyset_go wrote:
| There are weird pseudo-bootcamps that exist in the US that
| you can sign up for, but I imagine they're just as
| unregulated and harmful as "wilderness therapy" companies
| are.
| bladegash wrote:
| Think there is also a certain level of self-policing that
| happens in the military as well, which does not exactly reward
| those high in ego/self-centered behavior.
|
| One thing I appreciate about my friends from the military, over
| a decade later even, is I can trust they'll call me out when I
| deserve it (and vice versa).
| Melatonic wrote:
| The problem I have with articles like these (and discussions
| about narcissism in general) is that they often fail to classify
| or recognize that like many aspects of our psyche it is a
| spectrum of behaviours and beliefs. The extreme examples are of
| course shocking and easily derided - but on some level we need a
| healthy amount of narcissism in our lives.
| kadenwolff wrote:
| You cannot solve your narcissism through introspection.
| Introspection will only lead you to thinking you've found the
| answer, and stopping there so you don't have to change. "I've
| figured it out, I know why I'm a narcissist," and then stopping
| there.
|
| People can't tell you how to stop being a narcissist. If someone
| tells you exactly what to do, you'll do that thing, and then
| stop. "I'm doing that thing now, so I'm not a narcissist!"
|
| Your mind will simulate the most awful pain imaginable just to
| protect against changing your behaviour. You think your suffering
| is making you a good person, that by looking at the painful parts
| of your mind you are no longer a narcissist, but you're at the
| same place as you were before. You haven't changed your behaviour
| at all.
| deepsun wrote:
| Sounds interesting, so what's the solution then?
| pshc wrote:
| A heroic dose of shrooms might be one vital component of a
| solution.
| niemal_dev wrote:
| Pretty sure grandiosity correlates with schizophrenia and
| as far as I know shrooms/psychedelics are a big no-no for
| that.
| thisisbrians wrote:
| My understanding is it's generally un-curable since it's such
| a deeply rooted and ingrained coping mechanism for the ego.
| Like an addiction. But if I had to guess, someone would
| probably have to deeply work on true self-compassion (a lot
| of narcissists are, internally, extremely self-critical, if I
| understand the condition correctly) and build back from near
| zero. Sounds really difficult.
| [deleted]
| malwarebytess wrote:
| It's intractable. There is no solution except teaching people
| how to identify and protect themselves from narcissists, or
| institutionalization.
|
| People with narcissistic traits can work towards undoing the
| damage done to them; but, once you're at the level of a
| personality disorder it becomes more about coping with the
| inevitable and continuous fallout. Genetics, trauma, and
| childhood abuse all come together to create a shell of a
| human being who, motivated by self-preservation, exists only
| to consume, exhaust, and expel other human beings.
|
| There are no evidenced treatments, and there is no saving
| them. They are not capable of changing -- if they were, they
| wouldn't be (by definition) narcissists. The best thing we
| can do is teach people to identify and protect themselves
| from these lost souls.
| pshc wrote:
| This seems a little absolutist. These traits exist on a
| spectrum. Are personalities and minds really that
| predictable and non-malleable?
| pseudosavant wrote:
| > You think your suffering is making you a good person, that by
| looking at the painful parts of your mind you are no longer a
| narcissist, but you're at the same place as you were before.
| You haven't changed your behaviour at all.
|
| This is what I'm going through with my partner right now. She
| went through a program that made her really evaluate her past
| and behavior. After the year program she thinks she is "fixed"
| and everyone else needs to live their life according to how she
| thinks is best.
|
| It seems like an impossibility for her to even change 5%. If I
| could even get her to accept that she has a mental health
| problem that she needs to face.
| trgn wrote:
| This is a specific of a more general critique of therapy, or at
| least, classical psycho-analytics. It conflates that moment of
| insight (the "breakthrough") with healing, similar to making a
| big poop is hard work, but really satisfying.
|
| The power of this introspective moment of insight has an
| interesting parallel with the similar concept of catharsis.
| However, catharsis is outward focussed. It is through the
| careful absorption of art (e.g. a stage play in antiquity),
| which is fiction, and divorced from the self, that a healing
| release may occur.
|
| So for the neurotics trying to avoid the trap you described,
| try channel that curiosity outward, direct it towards the minds
| of others, by paying careful attention to fiction. It won't
| change behavior per se, but at least will help with stepping
| out of oneself.
| gtirloni wrote:
| I didnt get what you're trying to say. What's one to do then?
| careersuicide wrote:
| > What's one to do then?
|
| GP gives a hint:
|
| > You haven't changed your behaviour at all.
|
| TLP[1] said it best:
|
| > There you go again, thinking about yourself. Your impulse
| wasn't to say, "am I doing this to my kids?" or "how will I
| act differently?" It was to wonder about your own nature.
|
| 1: https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2012/10/the_story_of_narci
| ss...
| yes_i_can wrote:
| Worthy of note, TLP did often harp on the fact that his
| view of 'narcissism' as a cultural phenomenon (I think he
| called it a "generational pathology") is NOT the same as
| the DSM definition. People are fooled into thinking every
| narcissist is the person with a self-inflated ego (I
| inferred the same from the OP, _" Some of them are good
| enough to fool Jersey Shore candidates, while others can
| reach high executive positions and, in some cases,
| potentially win a presidential election..."_). But TLP's
| definition was closer to someone who is completely focused
| on controlling others' perception of them. This could
| include a person who projects himself as a meek victim, but
| hyper-focused on relaying that image to others.
|
| Although, this does fit quite well too: _" I don't want to
| be with someone who doesn't care to drink tap water."_
|
| Anyway, not saying you said it was the same as the DSM
| definition, just adding some perspective since I read a lot
| of TLP and naturally compared what I read in the OP to what
| I remember from TLP's blog.
| jjtheblunt wrote:
| being addressed is what narcissism wants. oh the irony
| wonderwonder wrote:
| Author appears to be bleeding friends and relationships and
| blaming it on the narcissism of the other person. Some people are
| narcissistic to a certain degree, for some of them it drives them
| to great accomplishments. See Trump, Elon, and many other
| billionaires and politicians. Some others it cripples them.
| People are complicated.
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