[HN Gopher] Firefly III: A free and open-source finance manager
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Firefly III: A free and open-source finance manager
        
       Author : yessirwhatever
       Score  : 100 points
       Date   : 2022-05-30 17:48 UTC (5 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.firefly-iii.org)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.firefly-iii.org)
        
       | erulabs wrote:
       | Firefly III is excellent - there was a lot of excitement for
       | Actual budget the other week (which is also excellent) but
       | firefly has been a solid self hosted finance tool for years.
       | 
       | We have a one click installer for kubernetes over at
       | https://kubesail.com/template/erulabs/firefly-iii if anyone is
       | interested in self hosting this!
        
         | yessirwhatever wrote:
         | I found out about Firefly III a couple of weeks ago and wanted
         | to try, but it seemed a bit more than what I needed. That's
         | when I found out about Actual, which does seem to be an
         | interesting solution. My issue with it is that they seem to
         | have made the web version (intentionally?) not compatible with
         | mobile, and their iPhone app requires a subscription of ~$10 a
         | month. At first I thought I'd give it a try then felt sort of
         | cheated. I don't mind paying for a solution but this seems like
         | a shady way to charge money for me. Also I'm not a fan of
         | subscription.
         | 
         | Anyway, I gave Firefly III a try and now I'm very happy that I
         | did. I think those extra features that seemed too complicated
         | at first are proving to be pretty useful.
        
       | wolverine876 wrote:
       | Are there FOSS libraries that handle common financial
       | functionality and do it reliably? Are these FOSS applications all
       | reinventing the wheel?
        
       | kkfx wrote:
       | Honestly seems a bit confusing to me...
       | 
       | The dashboard is a bit configurable, ok, so I can cut things I do
       | not want but a default with just balance/all translations
       | scrollable, the latest visible/stock option with mean price paid
       | and actual value, optional widgets for other financial means (raw
       | materials and their value, currencies etc) would be far nicer
       | than a big load of graphs...
       | 
       | Ease to add transactions is not much a thing since at least
       | personally all must come from external sources like bank exports
       | in ofx/qif/ _sv etc with manually just tagging, description etc
       | and a merging feature for upcoming transactions when the date is
       | due to merge them with the actual new entry from the bank, so
       | better import /export (i.e. woob integration for banks who do not
       | offer exporting) would be very nice.
       | 
       | Generally graphs are nice but data in tabular form + operations
       | on such tables are much more useful, especially if can be done
       | with a programming language like "hey, that's the table, now you
       | can generate new ones with some query language and lisp/python/_
       | as you wish, just add a "programmed entry" and you get input in
       | _sv form for code, SQL-alike for query DSL, output view as a
       | table for_ sv data or graph or raw at your option.
       | 
       | Surely the last paragraph might not appeal end users, but a user
       | who self-host likely use/can use/dream such features...
        
       | anthropodie wrote:
       | Another finance manager recently open sourced
       | https://actualbudget.com/
        
       | xthrowawayxx wrote:
       | This is great! I've been using Firefly III for years. However it
       | consumes a good chunk of time to keep up to date at a line item
       | resolution with many cards and accounts across countries as I've
       | not automated any of it.
        
       | jendnd wrote:
       | This project is great, but damn it slows down with just a few
       | years worth of data. :(
        
       | xupybd wrote:
       | Very impressive tool.
       | 
       | I've always used the approach of allocating spending before it's
       | spent. I've not attempted expense tracking. Has anyone got
       | experience with it, and an opinion to share?
        
       | toyg wrote:
       | Looks good but the real problem, as for 90% of similar programs,
       | is the volume of necessary data-entry. Paid-for options like
       | YNAB, nowadays, can fetch transactions from many mainstream US/EU
       | banks and credit providers. Without that sort of feature, it's a
       | real drudge to keep up entering every single expense.
        
         | BeetleB wrote:
         | Not sure about Firefly, but I use KMyMoney. Is there a bank/CC
         | where you can import via YNAB and _not_ via KMyMoney and
         | similar software?
        
         | emiller88 wrote:
         | Agreed. I've found https://lunchmoney.app/ really nice.
        
         | wolverine876 wrote:
         | As of several years ago, banks would provide csv files of
         | transactions to customers. That's still more work than the paid
         | options, but much less than individual transactions.
         | 
         | I suppose something like Firefly could create a module (or even
         | sell one) that is preconfigured, and updated, with the best
         | method for each bank - download csv, api, scrape, etc. In fact,
         | they could charge for that service and fund development.
        
         | scotttopic wrote:
         | I look at this from the opposite perspective. Seven years of
         | YNAB4 trained me to include manual entry of every transaction,
         | assigning categories, splitting it as necessary, etc right
         | there at the moment I make the purchase. It's baked into my
         | process, as that was one of the core components that the old
         | YNAB taught. At this point I could never trust an automated
         | system for everyday purchases, where it couldn't accurately
         | know how to split transactions, or where to assign things
         | (although scheduled bills I do input as recurring transactions
         | so to an extent I do have some automation).
         | 
         | For example, take a trip to Walmart where you purchased things
         | that cross like 3 or 4 categories. With a system relying on
         | importing data from your bank, a couple days after the
         | transaction posts you'll have this generic assignment to
         | Walmart, and you must then try and remember how to split it (eg
         | between Groceries, Clothes, Technology etc). Instead, I have my
         | transaction manually sorted in my YNAB app before I've even
         | left the store.
        
         | rmesters wrote:
         | Here's two free solutions you can use for bank data sync
         | (Nordigen & Saltedge): https://docs.firefly-iii.org/data-
         | importer/install/nordigen-...
        
           | ywain wrote:
           | Unfortunately neither of these work in the US. Salt Edge
           | supposedly supports US banks but when I reached out to them a
           | few weeks ago (specifically for the purpose of using them
           | with Firefly III) this was their reply:
           | 
           | > We regret to inform you that temporarily Salt Edge does not
           | provide its services on the USA market.
        
             | _zoltan_ wrote:
             | now you know how I feel when I want to use some US bases
             | service.
             | 
             | in theory interactive brokers could link in my accounts but
             | since I'm based in Switzerland this doesn't work. Sad. :)
        
         | Buttons840 wrote:
         | Most of these work be giving the application your bank
         | credentials, right? This probably violates the terms and
         | conditions of your bank and gives the application unrestricted
         | access to your account.
        
           | PandawanFr wrote:
           | Afaik most use something like Plaid which works with the
           | banks to get this data appropriately.
        
             | encryptluks2 wrote:
             | Plaid does the opposite. It scrapes using your banks
             | credentials.
        
               | smeej wrote:
               | Am I totally misremembering this, or is it a fairly
               | recent change?
               | 
               | I could've sworn several years ago it was perfectly
               | possible to use your sign-in credentials, then
               | immediately change them, because it basically needed an
               | authorization token, but then worked fine.
               | 
               | Now it doesn't. I work for a company with a Plaid
               | integration and if the bank so much as requires any kind
               | of 2FA, you just can't use it at all anymore.
        
               | encryptluks2 wrote:
               | I'm not sure. It is possible that some banks have an API
               | that Plaid uses, but this issue has been known for
               | several years and discussed on here quite a bit. Plaid
               | even had a large settlement due to privacy violations.
        
           | rmesters wrote:
           | Depends. There's a bunch of providers (eg Yodlee) that ask
           | for bank credentials (previously on HN
           | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18655712) Akoya in US
           | and most European providers use real bank APIs.
        
         | balaji1 wrote:
         | The workaround for data entry I have in hledger are a few csv
         | import scripts for various sources of txn info, but I still
         | have to manually edit the imported data sometimes. So still
         | would prefer something that can auto-import transactions. The
         | other thing I have done is close a few accounts to simplify
         | this process.
        
         | linux2647 wrote:
         | Not to mention the companion mobile apps that companies like
         | YNAB provide. It'd be nice to have something self-hosted and
         | hackable, but my spouse won't want to use it unless the mobile
         | app is good
        
       | candiddevmike wrote:
       | If you're looking for budgeting like old YNAB and a general
       | household management solution, checkout Homechart:
       | https://homechart.app
        
         | BbzzbB wrote:
         | I listened to a talk by YNAB's creator last year (about
         | development not the program itself). Didn't realize until this
         | thread how popular it is.
        
       | __michaelg wrote:
       | Side note: If you need to say this:
       | 
       | > (click on the icons for more information)
       | 
       | then you almost certainly have an unintuitive design and know it,
       | but instead of fixing it you just doubled down on it.
        
         | prepend wrote:
         | I noticed this and thought it was quite odd. I thought the
         | icons were weird screenshots because they were so big.
         | 
         | Comically the message worked and I tapped on them.
         | 
         | I forgive these kinds of design mistakes in OSS projects
         | because I'd rather have stuff that works than beautiful sites.
         | 
         | Of course, I appreciate nice design too.
        
         | Xeoncross wrote:
         | The smallest change I could figure out is just to delete the
         | single `opacity: 0` line in the CSS for the `.portfolio-item-
         | caption`
        
       | yessirwhatever wrote:
       | Previous HN Thread [2020]:
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20916920
        
       | balaji1 wrote:
       | how do Firefly or ActualBudget and the like compare to something
       | like hledger?
        
         | imroot wrote:
         | It really just depends on how comfortable you are in the
         | command line. If you know how to get your transactions
         | downloaded from your bank and don't ever want to leave the
         | command line, hledger is great for you -- I've been using
         | hledger since 2019 and love every minute of it.
         | 
         | If you need something point and click, or, need a high "wife-
         | acceptance factor," firefly-iii is not a bad choice.
         | 
         | After coming from hledger, I did try firefly, but, stuck with
         | hlegder due to how amazingly powerful it is with nothing but a
         | text input.
        
           | balaji1 wrote:
           | that's my impression about hledger and the plain text format
           | as well. So not going to try other tools also.
           | 
           | Wife acceptance factor tho haha.. we will be fine as long as
           | we never show the beautiful UIs from the YNABs & Fireflys.
        
       | sirsinsalot wrote:
       | I applaud the effort, but sometimes think apps like this when
       | they promote self-hosting should have a mode of installation and
       | operation that acts more or less like a desktop application.
        
         | prepend wrote:
         | They have a docker instal option. Granted it's a bit of
         | overkill but you can run it like desktop software.
        
           | sirsinsalot wrote:
           | I mean, a windows installer (or RPM) that doesn't require a
           | background process so that more people can access the value
           | of the software. Even Flatpak or something if we are talking
           | Linux specific.
           | 
           | Having Docker and other "enthusiast" methods of running
           | software makes it less accessible. Having a web-stack as the
           | goto method of writing software doesn't make sense if it
           | limits the audience that would gain value from it.
           | 
           | I say this as someone who professionally maintains a web
           | application that comes with a Windows installer, macOS
           | traditional installation and a Linux RPM. All with desktop
           | icons and it being pretty invisible to the user that it is a
           | web application aside from the HTML-looking UI style.
           | 
           | The software is for personal finance, it isn't for a niche
           | that makes the install/access method particuarly sane. If it
           | were software for managing a cluster of X-thing or something
           | ... maybe.
        
         | herdst wrote:
         | Agree, ive installed this in the past and it was a pain in the
         | ass. If i ever did budgeting/financial tracking again i would
         | use a paid option
        
         | ocdtrekkie wrote:
         | FWIW, Firefly III has an old Sandstorm package, but it isn't
         | currently maintained so it's a fair bit out of date. We aim for
         | "like installing an app on your phone".
         | 
         | The problem here is ultimately on the platform your app runs
         | on, not the app itself. If web servers are hard to spin up, so
         | too are web apps.
        
       | spicyusername wrote:
       | I would love to explore something other than Mint, but having
       | 100% of the data collection automated is so nice.
        
       | muznar wrote:
       | I literally had to reinstall this to a new free instance on
       | Saturday after getting my instance deleted accidentally.
       | 
       | I have been tracking and exporting backups of my finances using
       | Firefly since 2020. I am young, my finances are nothing fancy,
       | they are mostly credit card purchases, my salary, and my rent.
       | 
       | I love the flexibility of personally serving this on a dedicated
       | server. Similar to the other commenter it consumes a lot of my
       | time too. I tried to automate by writing small custom shortcuts
       | in Apple Shortcuts for repeated things like posting a grocery
       | purchase. Firefly has a comprehensive API, I have widgets on my
       | homescreen showing my credit card balances at all times etc.
       | 
       | I like knowing how much I spend on grocery each month, how much I
       | spent clothing last year vs this year, the effect of having a
       | Costco membership. It is fun and I am sure in the next 10 years
       | it will be so much more interesting looking at data from early
       | years.
        
       | aftbit wrote:
       | I currently use Mint by Intuit. I hate the new UI, the constant
       | ads, and the amount of trust I have to give them (with my bank
       | credentials). I would love to self-host something else that can
       | auto-import all of my transactions. I'll have to check out
       | Saltedge and Nordigen. I might also write my own Plaid API
       | integration. Just as much trust though...
       | 
       | Open banking data APIs sounds like an easy win for regulators,
       | but probably the Intuit lobby would oppose that.
        
         | bredren wrote:
         | I am about ready to throw in the towel and use mint. It's the
         | only product Apple has built a native integration for, with no
         | news of other products.
         | 
         | I've written asking about it but nothing. It's pretty annoying
         | because Apple Card is supposed to offer privacy, then they turn
         | around and make the first transaction integration with mint.
         | Wth.
        
       | Karawebnetwork wrote:
       | It seems like someone or something has crashed the demo.
       | 
       | It outputs an error log.
       | 
       | Whoops! An error occurred. Unfortunately, this error was not
       | recoverable :(. Firefly III broke. The error is:
       | 
       | Could not save preference: SQLSTATE[22001]: String data, right
       | truncated: 1406 Data too long for column 'data' at row 1 (SQL:
       | update `preferences` set `data` =
       | [{"ip":"00.000.00.00","time":"2022-05-30 20:02:06","notified":fal
       | se},{"ip":"00.000.00.00","time":"2022-05-30 20:02:10","notified":
       | false},{"ip":"00.000.00.00","time":"2022-05-30 20:02:15","notifie
       | d":false},{"ip":"00.000.00.00","time":"2022-05-30
       | 20:02:16","notified":false}, ...
       | 
       | My IP was in the list.
       | 
       | Let's just say it is hard to trust a piece of software with my
       | financial data after this.
       | 
       | (I changed all the IP addresses for 00.000.00.00 to preserve some
       | anonymity.)
        
         | sergnio wrote:
         | Completely agree...
        
         | [deleted]
        
       | kailanb wrote:
       | I recently discovered PocketSmith[0] which is not free nor open-
       | source, but I have found it to be the easiest to keep up to date.
       | It automatically pulls transactions from most banks and credit
       | providers, which I've been unable to replicate with other
       | solutions.
       | 
       | [0]: https://www.pocketsmith.com/
        
         | skoskie wrote:
         | It's also one of the few that does a good job of forecasting
         | balances.
        
       ___________________________________________________________________
       (page generated 2022-05-30 23:00 UTC)