[HN Gopher] The industry has been sizing kayak paddles wrong for...
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The industry has been sizing kayak paddles wrong for years
Author : troydavis
Score : 45 points
Date : 2022-05-30 11:23 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (paddlingmag.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (paddlingmag.com)
| neves wrote:
| Would it impact Standup Paddlers?
| TedShiller wrote:
| > Shaft size matters.
|
| That's what she said
| boznz wrote:
| I wonder how many other "assumptions" out there are also fucked
| up ?
| ghaff wrote:
| I'm a bit unsure about "the industry" here. It's probably true
| that whitewater paddlers, as the article suggests, tend to go
| with shorter paddles than are generally ideal for sea kayak
| touring. Generally speaking, longer shaft paddles have been
| available, but it may well be the case that a lot of people don't
| go with them because it doesn't feel natural based on how they
| learned to paddle.
|
| (I agree with the basic point that, for sea kayaking, you mostly
| want to keep your hands fairly low and have a relatively long
| paddle. There's also a whole discussion around blade shapes but
| that's a topic for another day.)
|
| ADDED: I did do a fair amount of sea kayaking instruction at one
| point and the inclination of a lot of students is definitely to
| hold their hands high and dig in whether because of previous
| whitewater kayaking, canoeing, fun-yaks, or other reasons.
| palmetieri2000 wrote:
| Hi mate! I'm super interested in this topic.
|
| Why is having a long paddle with fairly low hands beneficial
| for sea kayaking?
|
| Do you have any resources you think are good quality that I
| could find somewhere?
|
| Thanks!
| japhyr wrote:
| In sea kayaking you're usually going longer distances, so
| being able to get into a steady efficient rhythm is
| important. Quick maneuverability is important, but it's not
| the highest priority. Wind also comes up a lot in sea
| kayaking, and being able to keep your paddle low is helpful.
| ghaff wrote:
| I don't have any specific resources but it's really an energy
| thing. When you paddle--and this is broadly true although
| maybe more specific to sea kayak touring than other things--
| you're not primarily using your arms. You're essentially
| keeping your hands in a fairly fixed location and rotating
| your upper body to supply the needed force. (Though this
| applies to canoeing as well.)
|
| Some of the classic books by the likes of Nigel Foster are
| probably still applicable but I haven't looked at them in
| years.
| tormeh wrote:
| What I don't get is why one oar is rotated 90 degrees off the
| other one. It means whenever I use these double-sided paddles I
| have to rotate them ever so slightly whenever I make a new
| stroke. It's annoying and I don't understand why it's done. Does
| anyone know?
| stevesimmons wrote:
| 90 degrees reduces the wind pushing the upper blade. Feathering
| the blades to 60-80 reduces wrist strain (in novice paddlers,
| who aren't used to the movement) but makes the top blade more
| susceptible to catching the wind.
|
| And if you play canoe polo, you'll want it to be exactly 90
| degrees so the ball rebounds predictably when you block the
| ball with the paddle.
| deepsun wrote:
| My instructor said 90 degrees is an old school. Nowadays people
| do like 25 only.
| Joky wrote:
| The movement of paddling has a natural rotation of the shaft
| when you raised the fixed hand for a stroke on the other side,
| it's quite straightforward to figure out sitting and mimicing
| the movement.
|
| During this movement if the blade aren't feathered at all you
| have to compensate with some bending of the wrist. The amount
| of rotation of the shaft induced depends on how much you raise
| the hand/elbow, and so is fairly dependent on your style of
| stroke. This is the main way I think should be approached
| feathering: how much vertical do you intend to paddle? From
| there the angle should follow to optimize for the least amount
| of wrist twisting.
|
| In general paddling very vertical will come with more angle in
| between the blades. I practice slalom and use to have 70-80
| degrees crossing, but I tend to paddle less vertically now
| (aging? Lack of training?) and I'm down to 60 degrees
| comfortably now.
| lkschubert8 wrote:
| Last I remember looking into it is the hard 90 degree offset is
| for wind resistance in open water.
| handmodel wrote:
| This is why it's done but still sorta of strange to me that
| this was the way I was taught by camp instructors - even
| though we never were going for speed. Feels a bit like
| learning how to ride a bike with one of those aerodynamic
| helmets even if you aren't really ready to learn racing
| technique yet.
|
| https://www.sportsperformancebulletin.com/wp-
| content/uploads...
| ghaff wrote:
| It's not just racing. Feathering paddles can be really
| useful generally if wind picks up and you're actively
| fighting it. Otherwise you're dealing with a lot of
| resistance with the paddle blade in the air. And I assume
| there are instructors who just want to instill feathered
| paddles as the norm you should expect.
|
| I generally disagree but lots of people with more
| experience than I have don't.
| ghaff wrote:
| Yes. It's called feathering.
|
| In general, I prefer to unfeather my paddles. (Many good
| paddles can be adjusted--modula small surface area Greenland
| paddles.) But there's also an argument that you shouldn't
| change your paddle orientation so that you can do bracing and
| other manoeuvres by reflex.
| stevesimmons wrote:
| A slightly strange article, whose premise feels like a strawman.
|
| I've paddled a ton of whitewater, sprint, marathon, canoe polo,
| touring and sea kayaking.
|
| The only time I ever cared about total length (rather than shaft
| length) was when I was a canoe polo goalie, and wanted to balance
| reaching the top corners of the goal (long) with fast
| acceleration and turns (shorter).
| smegsicle wrote:
| someone posts one article on kayaking and the hn canoe polo
| people just come out of the gd woodwork
| edrxty wrote:
| Funny enough, rowing, in all it's Olympic glory still isn't sure
| what the optimal oar size or length is. There's some contention
| over what the right surface area and geometry is with many higher
| performance groups using older designs now as they feel the
| current generation is oversized and with too short a shaft.
| ghaff wrote:
| Of course, the "right" answer for racing may not be the same as
| for someone doing relatively recreational paddling. I assume
| it's very situational--including for the individual involved.
| edrxty wrote:
| Recreational paddlers generally aren't going to notice a
| difference at all. The issue is balancing losses from force
| vectors, the blades pushing and pulling towards/away from
| each other at the extremes of the stroke, and fluid dynamics
| where the larger blade has higher flat plate drag and wastes
| less energy as turbulence around the periphery. You can't
| have both without making special (wider pin spread) rigging
| for the boat which oddly hasn't been played around with
| much.....
|
| Also of note, lightweight women through open weight men use
| the same blade area and very similar spread/inboard/outboard
| measurements. There hasn't been much interest in tailoring
| the rigging to athletes due to equipment expense and
| availability limitations, even at the Olympic level.
| swayvil wrote:
| I imagine many frustrating arguments.
|
| Truth is dictated by authority. That's just how our society
| works. For like 10,000 years. Scientific enlightenment
| notwithstanding.
|
| Like a network of solipsists.
|
| If the authority told us to cut off our nose we'd be a 90%
| noseless population inside a week.
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